Bot Bay/Bibiki Bay - Something needs to be done.

[Sirmarki]

When I load up/install this game, I agree to terms and conditions that I will not use third party software etc - To play fair, and the idea is, that everybody does the same, so we all have a level playing field.

There are currently groups of Botting players/RMT stuck together in groups within every...single...group of Lotus monsters right now in the new area (In fact, I think some of them have been here since day 1). This is simply not acceptable and detrimental to my gameplay experience to which I pay a monthly subscription for.

It has gone beyond filling out report forms, as there are simply far too many to report. I would be there for hours on end. People need to be on the ground, removing players on the spot, like they did in the old days - the current system in my opinion, does not work, and cheating players are far exceeding any kind of punishments.

Sometimes justice is served (by the monsters).

https://i.imgur.com/xIDqIQa.jpeg

[Uriah]

Botbiki Bay or Bibotti Bay

Come on, that was a layup.

[Sp1cyryan]

When I go to the bay, I am just about the only party not botting. It's not like I can even ignore them when players are botting every corner of the zone they can. The Devs and GMs are doing nothing about the issue and likely won't. The community needs to keep these people honest.
Otherwise, the attitude of the community has quite literally become "botting is normal now."

The Devs did more about players farming Alexandrite by repeating floors in the Adoulin era Salvage bans than the rampant botting of everything across the game.

[Uriah]

Just want to bump this one so the whole main page stays posts about botting. dealwithit.lol

[Zenion]

#AsuraProblems

Also, just sayin', there's a lot more bots since master levels started asking for 25 million exemplar points at about 1500 per mob in ideal conditions. Instead of going around banning everybody who uses a bot, which is going to be everyone who in any sense values their time, maybe those resources would be better used making master levels not a complete dumpster fire.

Just off the top of my head: first time you zone or log in each day, you get a rare/ex non-sendable mastery seal: use for 60 minutes of +500% exemplar point gain. Boom, now people actively playing get six hours worth of grind done in one hour, and they are damn well going to play like they mean it if the window is that limited. Bots become painfully inefficient - doubly so if, say, base exemplar gets cut in half (and the seal doubled to +1000%), or gains start to scale down based on time spent in zone. They'll still exist, but they will be much less prevalent, particularly if some of the more noticeable offenders do get pruned; nobody would want to risk a character for peanuts after that.

[Cherrywine]

This isn't just an Asura problem. It is a "content" problem, by which, I mean, that MLing is soulless grinding. It could be argued that MLs are perfectly designed for bots. A human would have to be stupid or devoid of any other option to do it manually beyond, like, 30 or so. 35+ is ridiculous.
That isn't to say it would have to be bot-proof to encourage those with a heartbeat to ML, but the process does need more liveliness to it. I'm not a game designer, so I can't stand on some pedestal and say it should be this way or that. But, using FF14 as an example, since it is getting all of XI's money anyway, wouldn't it be slightly more interesting if ML zones randomly had spaces light up on the ground and if everyone moved to them, they got a bonus? Even that would get old pretty quickly... Or if NM-like, specially colored mobs, would sometimes appear that give a bonus? The point is, MLing isn't engaging for more than short periods of time. The bottleneck is too narrow and the pit too deep. I honestly like Zenion's idea, a lot.
Toons with names like Aljhdfglsjhgfsjdh, sure, ban them. But, as much as the ML system frustrates me and I don't like a world filled with more bots than adventurers, I also don't want to see any sort of a massive ban wave that might pick up genuine players that have resorted to botting simply because SE has done nothing to discourage it in a long time; instead, actually encouraging it with mindless grinds. Please, SE, make engaging content. Make fun content. Interesting, flavorful content. Innovate for pity's sake. I truly believe that botting will organically fall away if you make content that players actually want to play. Yes, we love Vana'diel. But we're adventurers. We login for excitement, not to watch paint dry or grass to grow.
I apologize for the rambling nature of this post. Thank you for your time (and also add a Sortie Earring exchange system!).

[Sirmarki]

A human would have to be stupid or devoid of any other option to do it manually beyond, like, 30 or so. 35+ is ridiculous.


At the same time though, what is the rush? This is FFXI all over, it has always been the same, it is what it is and there are many other games that people can play if they don't like that.

[Sirmarki]

#AsuraProblems

Fenrir Problems

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/drought-land-260nw-111425756.jpg

[Cherrywine]

It isn't that it is necessary to rush MLs. They are ridiculous, which feeds into all of the botting. FFXI hasn't always been this way, and MLs are a step backwards. Sure, people could go elsewhere, but that's not the purpose of these threads. I think you are missing the point.

I'm on Fenrir. Bots aren't an Asura only problem.

[Sp1cyryan]

It isn't that it is necessary to rush MLs. They are ridiculous, which feeds into all of the botting. FFXI hasn't always been this way, and MLs are a step backwards. Sure, people could go elsewhere, but that's not the purpose of these threads. I think you are missing the point.

I'm on Fenrir. Bots aren't an Asura only problem.

Botting is a community problem and has become something openly done and spoken about by the average player. Due to a lack of enforcement and the ease of obtaining bot programs. Just typing FFXI into GitHub comes up with plenty of them, and that is way too accessible with little to no repercussion. So players have adopted the attitude that everyone does it and it is out of control.

[Zenion]

I'm on Fenrir. Bots aren't an Asura only problem.

Other servers have bots, but they don't have a bot problem. There's enough space to play around them in most situations. (Dynamis - Jeuno is still a mess because it only takes two of them to ruin that but whatever.)

Asura might need an immediate crackdown and indiscriminate banning like some people seem to want to advocate, but the rest of the game would probably benefit far more from just addressing the root causes and letting the bots fade into obsolescence.

[Sirmarki]

So players have adopted the attitude that everyone does it and it is out of control.

How proud they must be writing all their achievements in their comment box, but yet, worked for/earned none of it :)

[Zenion]

How proud they must be writing all their achievements in their comment box, but yet, worked for/earned none of it :)

... as opposed to, what? "I spent eight weeks spending every waking hour killing the same ten mobs to reach master level 50, respect me?"

Levels of any kind aren't an achievement, they're a chore, and anyone who tries to say they are some kind of achievement has a fundamentally poor understanding of the game. Achievements are what you get to go do after you're done with your chores.

[Sirmarki]

... as opposed to, what? "I spent eight weeks spending every waking hour killing the same ten mobs to reach master level 50, respect me?"

As opposed to doing it the way it was designed and how you are meant to do it, maybe?


Levels of any kind aren't an achievement, they're a chore, and anyone who tries to say they are some kind of achievement has a fundamentally poor understanding of the game. Achievements are what you get to go do after you're done with your chores.

What do you actually class as an achievement in FFXI then?

[Zenion]

What do you actually class as an achievement in FFXI then?

Feats of skill and cunning; things that you don't just do the same mindless thing a million times to accomplish.

I've gotten my BLU/SMN/GEO Kin trio fight down to a pretty reliable win. That's something I feel like I achieved. I do it using a rank 15 Nirvana; that's something I feel like I shoveled time and resources into until I could be done with it.

I've been doing Odyssey vengeance 20 fights with my linkshell; if we don't clear the fight in the first 15 minute attempt, we walk out and restart. The two that we've toppled (in the three weeks or so I've been involved)? Those are definite achievements. Master levels might have made them easier, and Odyssey gear levels probably possible at all, but the wins still came down to actually playing the game hard.

Learning how to actually play a job? That's an achievement all its own. You can be master level 50 with all the best gear, but if you still don't know all the fiddly uses for all your job abilities, all you've done is run on a treadmill. I know one guy, freakin' hardcore corsair. He's got nearly identical gear to mine, and maybe 20 master levels over me at best; he can put out twice the numbers I can over any time scale you want to name, and that's if he's feeling lazy. That is an achievement.

As much as everyone hates on Sortie for all the dumb stuff it makes you do, figuring any of that nonsense out without hints from the devs? Huge achievement for the community, and for anyone who managed one on their own. I'm pretty proud of being one of the first players in the English community to try rematerializing hall C mobs to get the entry item for basement G; none of my other dumb theories paid off, but I was dead on the money with that.

In short, in my eyes an achievement is something you do by being good at the game, not something you do by playing the game a lot.

[Sp1cyryan]

... as opposed to, what? "I spent eight weeks spending every waking hour killing the same ten mobs to reach master level 50, respect me?"

Levels of any kind aren't an achievement, they're a chore, and anyone who tries to say they are some kind of achievement has a fundamentally poor understanding of the game. Achievements are what you get to go do after you're done with your chores.

If the game is a chore, then don't play it. Players are fun of plenty of excuses, and they are just self-serving.

[Zenion]

If the game is a chore, then don't play it. Players are fun of plenty of excuses, and they are just self-serving.

... are you... tacitly endorsing the botting, then?

Because again, the endless grinding is a chore, sure. Given a choice, I wouldn't. I usually don't, to be honest, but there comes a point where you do see how it hurts your performance against other potential party members. But the stuff that's not grinding, but that tends to heavily encourage, if not outright require, having done the grind? That's fun. I like that. That's why I'm here.

So, if (part of) the game is a chore, I should just not play (that part of) the game? Isn't that a logical extrapolation?

Which would mean... I dunno, using, like. Some kind of... automated... number-go-upper... thing, to not play that part?

You know the sad part about all this though? I'm a pathological power-grinder. I played a run through Final Fantasy IV once (well, properly Final Fantasy II, it was the SNES edition) where I got my party to level 50 between Cecil's job change and leaving the area it happened in. I'm stalled in a game of Final Fantasy X right now because I'm rewriting the entire sphere grid to max out every stat (including luck and 99999 HP!) There are other examples I could offer, but I figure sticking to Final Fantasy gives the most likely shared experience base. Point is, I'm generally the kind of person who will absolutely sit down and grind for far, far longer than any reasonable person ever would.

And I still think master levels are just too much to even consider seriously.

My bottom line here is the same as it has been. The exemplar bots are not the problem. They are the reaction. The problem is the grind is too little reward for too much effort, to fill too large a pool. Find a way to reward active engagement, turn it from something you do constantly until you die of boredom to something you can reasonably chip away at an hour or so at a time, and people will lose their reason for running the bots; the issue resolves itself, and we can all go back to, what are the kids into these days, trying to solo Warder of Courage?

[Sirmarki]

Feats of skill and cunning; things that you don't just do the same mindless thing a million times to accomplish.

I've gotten my BLU/SMN/GEO Kin trio fight down to a pretty reliable win. That's something I feel like I achieved. I do it using a rank 15 Nirvana; that's something I feel like I shoveled time and resources into until I could be done with it.

You beat that fight because you were at the level to do it. Without the level (or the mindless grind as you put it) - You wouldn't have been able to do it.

[Sirmarki]

Because again, the endless grinding is a chore, sure.

Depends what you define as a chore. I actually like doing the RoE and getting some ML solo, I can stop when I want and continue when I want. I can go do something else. No chore here. If you think it is a chore, then maybe you should play something else... Tetris maybe?

[Zenion]

You beat that fight because you were at the level to do it. Without the level (or the mindless grind as you put it) - You wouldn't have been able to do it.

... yes? That's exactly why I keep saying that the master levels are the thing that it feels like we're forced to get through to do the stuff that actually feels engaging and rewarding to accomplish? Though, having said that, it wasn't just the master levels. It wasn't just "run in, fight it, done", we still had to actually practice and refine our strategy.


Depends what you define as a chore. I actually like doing the RoE and getting some ML solo, I can stop when I want and continue when I want. I can go do something else. No chore here. If you think it is a chore, then maybe you should play something else... Tetris maybe?

I mean, okay, if that's your thing, you do you man. But maybe if what does it for you is just repeating the same motions over and over to make numbers get bigger, you should consider playing something more like Cookie Clicker?

[Cherrywine]

Why is, "If you don't like [this thing we all agree is not great] then leave [your game/ your server/ your town/ your country]." a more acceptable approach than seeking to make it better for everyone? In this case, all we can do is share our experiences and thoughts on a forum that the game's development team will likely never even be made aware of... But, I find that far better and more hopeful than turning on one another. We're an incredibly small community, as it is. Everyone posting in this thread has been thoughtful and polite and I see no value in encouraging any of you to give up on the game in frustration.

[Alhanelem]

Why is, "If you don't like [this thing we all agree is not great] then leave [your game/ your server/ your town/ your country]." a more acceptable approach than seeking to make it better for everyone?Well there's a few reasons. First, people leaving highlights the problem and hopefully motivates SE to address it.

Second, some people don't actually mind being in that environment, and IMO if they're more among like minded people, their experience is probably better. Whereas, everyone who leaves because of it will find a better experience elsewhere. So frankly, I think it does make things better for everyone, especially since balanced populations are better for everyone regardless of whatever specific problems one server has.

Third, I frankly think that if everyone that's not happy does move, you're left with a server full of only RMT buyers (the customers willing to pay RMT for gil/services) and sellers(The RMT themselves), and that effectively shadowbans them all since they're only playing with their own kind. The sellers have no reason to expand elsewhere when no one outside of that space wants their services, so theoretically, other servers should remain mostly RMT free. SE still gets free money from those bots and at the same time they're bothering far fewer people. Short of actually banning them all, which is unrealistic even if they actually try to do so, I truly believe this is the best solution.