Is the MMO sub model outdated?

[Beastorizer]

https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_video_games

The top titles, or highest grossing online games are either F2p, or Buy to play. This got me wondering, WoW may simply be an anomaly. As times changed, with the emergence of PS Plus and Gamepass......More MMO have become F2P.

WoW has also recently fell off while XIV lost a HUGE chunk of their Steam player-base not long ago (Not so nice news of XIV seems to be well hidden unless you are Anonymous or some internet sleuth team....).

This is why began to play XI mostly during events. I rarely touch XIV...if ever....(I did sub to check out the Island stuff.....Instant regret.....plan on going back to the free trial after that). To me, it is not justifiable to pay $13-15 for one game, when I can pay the same for hundreds of newer titles.

This is not a bash XI thread; XI is actually my favorite FF. It is just a random thought I had.

[Pixela]

It's shocking to me how little money XIV has made given it has a cash shop, a sub, expansions and they keep saying they have millions of players. I think the problem is how expensive development is for that game, given the high burn rate due to it being aimed at more casual players.

Also all the money XI makes ceased being counted as its own entity and was merged with XIV many years ago, XI profits are now counted towards XIV and have been for over 6 years. If you check financial reports XI stopped being counted then.

[Sp1cyryan]

No, it's not. It's only outdated if you are considering how the other micro transaction and intentionally undercutting the game experience to further profit is far more profitable than a sub.

[Zehira]

Not 100% outdated now with movie streaming subscriptions raising the standard prices and adding the ad service for whoever can't afford in order to produce more. The real genre of MMORPG has been dead since social media is a thing. That does slowly drag me away from the MMO in general and make me to carry on with my life in the real world. I am already as tanned as Mithra. Unfortunately, kids today will never understand the N64 era was so much better with real friends back in our day until Microsoft created the live service to keep us social distancing. MMOs today are designed to give young players more space. Life-ruined players don't matter. I mean it's SE. They are earning money as much as they can for their tropical beach vacation with sweet spiced rum while enslaving you at home playing FFXI...

I don't mean to be rude. Just a random thought.

[Alhanelem]

Also all the money XI makes ceased being counted as its own entity and was merged with XIV many years ago, XI profits are now counted towards XIV and have been for over 6 years. If you check financial reports XI stopped being counted then. False and disingenuous. Both projects, along with others are all reported as Creative Business Unit III. Not "FFXIV." Or FFXI. Or any other individual project.

As far as "oudated." No, it's not "outdated." Not being the biggest cash grab does not mean its outdated. MMOs with subs are generally higher quality in every conceivable way. F2P games make lots of money because idiots spend tons of money on accelerators and crap. Not because they're better games.

[Pixela]

No, all the money XI makes is counted towards XIV and has been for years. Yoshi has stated the game was given to him and his project officially. Also they forced all XI players to use teh payment system XIV had made for it (which means the money goes to it) and other games in that BD are counted on financial statements separately where XI is not and has not been for many years.

All money XI makes goes to and is counted towards XIV, which is why many infrastructure staff from XIV now also work on XI, GMs, server staff etc.

This is also why XIV can use any texture and model from XI they want at any time they want, where they can't do that from any other game SE operate. Project leads have to sign off on using any asset from the games they run, and since he runs both he can do what he wants.

All profits from xi are counted towards xiv, all player numbers are also counted towards it too.

[Pixela]

btw I'm not even saying it's a bad thing, I'm just pointing out comparing XI to XIV in terms of profits is pointless since they haven't counted any profits from XI since many years back.

[BST]

Subscriptions are becoming a thing of the past, without the Cash Shop in FFXIV to keep many people interested, it would see the same Fate as this game.

They have a serious problem when long-time veterans like me un-sub, just wish I didn't do it sooner, wasted hundreds of dollars on these two MMOs.

[Alhanelem]

No, all the money XI makes is counted towards XIV and has been for years.You can repeat it as much as you want it doesn't make it true. Both games as well as other projects are controlled by Business Unit 6 which is what Yoshida is the head of. It is entirely because both projects are under BU6's custody that the earnings from those and other projects are combined.



Subscriptions are becoming a thing of the past, without the cash shop in FFXIV to keep many people interested, it would see the same Fate as this game.also both straight up false and making a false equivalency without any basis-FFXI's lack of a cash shop (which I will not capitalize because it is a generic term and not a proper noun) has little if anything to do with its current state- and it's not like FFXI itself doesn't have some additional paid features of its own, which many serious players make use of. And I can promise you that the existence of the FFXIV Online Store (There, now that's proper use of capitalization) has little if any bearing on my level of long term interest with the game. These are short-term value-adds at best. In fact the shop takes away some of the FOMO of seasonal events, and FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out) is a lot more powerful than any "cash shop" thing could ever be. FFXIV's purchasble items are all permanent shop additions- there is no FOMO here.

Even many F2P mobile online games have an optional subscription that grants perks as long as it's active.

[Alhanelem]

WoW has also recently fell off while XIV lost a HUGE chunk of their Steam player-base not long ago (Not so nice news of XIV seems to be well hidden unless you are Anonymous or some internet sleuth team....). Would like to know where you're getting stuff like this. your assertion is laced with vague weasel words. Baseless bashing without sources.



This is not a bash XI thread; XI is actually my favorite FF.it sure seems like a Bash XIV thread though. The island sancturary has proven to be a hugely popular new feature, and you had "instant regret?" okay, sure. I mean, it doesn't surprise me, since this forum is largely populated by people who resent FFXIV for merely existing.

As far as gamepass goes... I'd rather have permanent access to the games I like, rather than see them come and go. I absoutely hate the pass trend. Everything is passes, battle passes, game passes, I dislike all of it. battle passes force you to play the same game more than you necessairly want to because of FOMO, and since freaking every game has a pass these days, you can't get all the stuff in all the games you play and that's deliberate. Sure, I guess game pass is okay if you're not one to stick with any one game for very long, but then you'll get that itch to play a game again but you can't because you didn't buy it and it isn't in the game pass anymore. Even Nintendo is guilty of this sort of thing with their stupid online "expansion pack." Yay, temporary DLC access while you have the pack, and you lose access if you cancel. It's not worth it, it's better to just buy the DLC and have it as long as you want instead.

[Pixela]

Yoshi stated XI was given to him to run in a vana interview.

They forced us to move to the payment system XIV made. When I play XIV, I used the crysta I bought for XI to pay for a month there. nobody can use it to pay for DQ11.

They stopped counting any profits XI makes on investor statements, DQ11 is still counted.

Many infrastructure staff from XIV work on XI including gms and server staff, not anything else in BD3. This would never happen unless profits from XI goto XIV to pay their wages and so they are allowed to do that.

They are one and the same, XIV is the flagship MMO and XI is run as part of that product.

You're wrong, I don't even need to go beyond the fact that XI has not been counted on any financial report for many years when much smaller games are. That alone tells you the story because on a financial report they have to tell investors how much money any of the products they spend money on is making, UNLESS its operations have been merged with another product.

Merging XI into XIV operations was a massive success, not only because it allowed the XIV developers to save a ton of money re-using assets but also because they get the profits and player numbers tacked onto their game for any financial reports. Both games profit from this situation.

A reason all of this is good is becasue XIV players don't see XI as competition anymore, they are one and the same.

[Alhanelem]

Yoshi stated XI was given to him to run in a vana interview.

They forced us to move to the payment system XIV made. When I play XIV, I used the crysta I bought for XI to pay for a month there. nobody can use it to pay for DQ11.
Irrelevant points that demonstrate nothing



They stopped counting any profits XI makes on investor statements, DQ11 is still counted.citation needed


money re-using assetsThis was happening before any alleged merging took place



get the profits and player numbers tacked onto their game for any financial reports. Both games profit from this situation. We've been through this before, FFXI's player counts (especially that of actual humans) are insignificant against the other's.




A reason all of this is good is becasue XIV players don't see XI as competition anymore, they are one and the same. There isn't a soul playing FFXIV who even knows about any of what you're alleging.

citation needed

[Pixela]

You just argue for the sake of arguing and Yoshi P could slap you across the face and shout it in your ear and you would still argue against it. Hiromichi gave FFXI to Yoshi when he left and yoshi said this in the vana interview, that was a long time ago. That's how long ago XI was merged into XIV operations. When we had to upgrade our pol accounts to square enix accounts.

Check any investor presentation pdf for the past 6 years+ and you'll notice XI isn't listed or mentioned at all, when DQ is and it much smaller and jp only. You can't just leave a product off an investment report, you know this but you won't accept it because you won't admit you were wrong.

[Alhanelem]

You just argue for the sake of arguingNo, I participate in a topic because I have a vested interest in it. It only becomes an argument when people like you make false statements that I have to call you out on.

Don't tell me to go check things. If you present something as fact, it's your job to prove that it's a fact by citing the source for your information when called out on it. It's not my responsibility to prove your statements. If you can't or won't link a specific source containing specific information, the assumption from me will be that it doesn't exist.

[Pixela]

You think you're ted cruz and this is a debating competition, you know full well what I'm saying it correct but you'll just spout nonsense to never change your position. I've laid out all the reasons, you countered none of them and just spouted reddit memes.

XI operations were merged with XIV operations when Tanaka left the company.

[Alhanelem]

You think you're ted cruz Oh don't start this kind of (*#&$^(#$. Personal attacks are not a valid argument.

I'm going to preface this sentence with a fact: You're the one here who decided to needlessly inject politics into this conversation. I don't like Ted Cruz, I am not like him nor do I think I'm him, I'm a moderate who believes different situations call for different solutions and don't lock myself into any one ideology. I'll be curious to see how you decide to weaponize this statement. But know that continuing down this road will only result in post reports.


you know full well what I'm saying it correctI don't full well know that, because it isn't correct, and I wouldn't be arguing against it if I thought it was. ??????????????????????




XI operations were merged with XIV operations when Tanaka left the company. Their operations were never actively merged, they were "merged," since before ether's existence. They're both owned by SE, thus their operations have always been owned and controlled by the same entity. It has nothing to do with Tanaka, it has everything to do with the Creative Business Unit III which both projects are under the custody of.

I'm not really sure why you keep trying to make these meaningless distinctions. It doesn't prove anything and there is no purpose behind such an argument. You also still haven't cited your sources. Given your well known reputation for hating on FFXIV, I can't simply take you at your word, you need to back up your claims, as you lack credibility.

See the thing is, you keep saying this stuff, without basis and refusing to prove it. But why are you even saying it at all? What's the point in telling us how the dollars made by SE's projects are internally counted? it has no meaning or bearing on anything.

[Pixela]

Nothing you said countered anything I said, it's blatantly obvious that XI was merged into XIV operations in a way DQ11 was not. I've listed many indicators that blatantly show that to be the case, including yoshi p saying tanaka asked him to take it over himself. The reason this is good for Square is because they can get what they always wanted from us ff11 players, we effectively moved to ff14 without moving. They never mention ff11 anymore at all in any way, because we no longer exist as a separate entity where dq11 as a jp only online game does. They merged 11 into 14.

Originally I was kind of mad about this, however there are positives to this as well as negatives. The main positives are that all the infrastructure staff don't have to be duplicated, so costs are lowered significantly, also ff11 is going to be kept alive for a long time because it's part of 14 and they won't ever want to lose it as an asset, another is that ff14 players are going to be far more accepting of a game that is a effectively just part of their game and that benefits them and theirs. If 1 million people started playing ff11 tomorrow for instance, ff14 would get 1million new players to brag about and all the revenue. There would be no announcement at 1 million people extra playing ff11, because as a seperate entity it does not exist.

The thing to remember about business and the reason ff11 is a very profitable asset to ff14 is not because of its size (although it's a popular game compared to the rest of the market with 50-60k players all paying to play), as shown by financial reports before the game was merged into ff14. Success is not how much money you make or how many players you have, success is how much profit you make. It does not matter if you have way more players and make way more money if your dev costs are significantly higher (they are on 14), this is why only recently (keep in mind the profits 11 makes has not been counted for many years and so if the numbers had been continually updated 14 still may be behind 11) 14 overtook 11 as their most profitable game ever. Even though it never had millions of players.

Here is what you can do, since I've listed a ton. You tell me what makes you think they are separate entities at square enix. Tell me what convinces you that 11 is its own unique entity with complete autonomy as dq11 has. The developers have even stated they need to put in requests from the ff14 team when they have spare time to make things for 11, including textures and programming help lol

[Pixela]

Oh don't start this kind of (*#&$^(#$. Personal attacks are not a valid argument.

https://i.imgur.com/ltpYDU9.jpg

I'm going to preface this sentence with a fact: You're the one here who decided to needlessly inject politics into this conversation. I don't like Ted Cruz, I am not like him nor do I think I'm him, I'm a moderate who believes different situations call for different solutions and don't lock myself into any one ideology. I'll be curious to see how you decide to weaponize this statement. But know that continuing down this road will only result in post reports.

Fixed your post for you.

[Sp1cyryan]

You both are acting incredibly immature over such an inane subject.

[Alhanelem]

You both are acting incredibly immature over such an inane subject.
I don't think it's immature to ask for people not to use personal attacks as a part of their argument or to cite their sources. But since he's shown he's not willing to do either of those things, I've bit the bullet and blocked them.

[Pixela]

I'm laughing at you thinking caling you ted cruz is a personal attack, grow up.

[Rinuko]

Reading this exchange, I'm not surprised Pixela plays on Asura.

[Pixela]

Reading this exchange, I'm not surprised Pixela plays on Asura.

https://i.imgur.com/RKn94QJ.jpg

[Afania]

https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_video_games

The top titles, or highest grossing online games are either F2p, or Buy to play. This got me wondering, WoW may simply be an anomaly. As times changed, with the emergence of PS Plus and Gamepass......More MMO have become F2P.

WoW has also recently fell off while XIV lost a HUGE chunk of their Steam player-base not long ago (Not so nice news of XIV seems to be well hidden unless you are Anonymous or some internet sleuth team....).

This is why began to play XI mostly during events. I rarely touch XIV...if ever....(I did sub to check out the Island stuff.....Instant regret.....plan on going back to the free trial after that). To me, it is not justifiable to pay $13-15 for one game, when I can pay the same for hundreds of newer titles.

This is not a bash XI thread; XI is actually my favorite FF. It is just a random thought I had.

Your anti-sub model argument is fairly flawed, you are basically saying sub model is "outdated" only because 1) There are Other titles beats FFXI in terms of revenue (well, yeah, of course there are always better selling titles out there.....) 2) You personally want cheaper games, therefore all games should price based on your expectation, even if other users are perfectly willing to pay for a higher price. This is quite a flawed way to determine the optimal pricing model.

First of all, when it comes revenue the market size matters a lot.

Some of the top grossing online games in that list, such as Lineage, Honor of Kings, Dungeon Fighter, WoW etc has China/South Korea/Taiwan release which are 3 of THE biggest market for MMO. But FFXI never release in such regions officially, so that's a huge chunk of market that they aren't getting.

Lineage was also sub based MMO btw, it's a 2000(I think?) game and at that time F2P model didn't exist.

Also according to your own list, FFXI lose to FFXIV(also a sub based game), but beats FFX and FFVII(2 of most profitable single player FF title).

Therefore, I can't arrive at the conclusion that F2p or Buy to play, for sure, is better than sub based model since you can get the opposite conclusion simply comparing FF series sales. I think you probably arrive at such conclusion because you personally feel FFXI is more expensive than other games and you want it cheaper, not because there sales data proving such conclusion is in fact true.

2) whether one group of customer find the price justifiable or not is irrelevant when it comes to revenue generation. The playing experience that FFXI provides can't be found in other games on Game Pass so the potential customer is still there, willing to pay for such price.

It's the same reason why newer AAA titles cost $60 and people still buy them despite there are cheaper non-AAA games, because some customer prefers AAA experience.

Even if you don't find $13-15 justifiable, other people still pays that price. It means you aren't the target audience, that's it.

Btw, I'm personally a fan of Game Pass and have active membership from time to time depending on titles available. Although I like it, it doesn't replace FFXI when it comes to video game entertainment even though it's cheaper. Because the value of a video game is not just the price, but the experience too. There are only a few games that I want to play on Game Pass, because I prefer more niche/unique titles than mainstream/popular titles, and Game Pass frequently doesn't have these.

Once I'm done with whatever I want to play on Game Pass I cancel sub. Therefore Game Pass doesn't really replace FFXI IMO. If I don't want to play a game, having that game available for $1 or even free isn't going to make me play it.

[Alhanelem]

F2P games only give an illusion of cheapness. If you want to really get into another game on the same level as you probably got into FFXI, you're going to need to spend money. And in all likelihood, more than you would spend on a subscription. Unfortunately that illusion is really good at hooking people in.

And I know from experience. I regularly play one mobile game, and while I'm far from being a whale, I end up getting the "Monthly card" which supplies resources and a subscription which unlocks extra perks. Together these cost as much as my sub to both FF games (with the legacy discount, at least), and it's like, only just enough for me to keep up with other players. I know it's a scam, it's kind of a guilty pleasure. I would really, really rather pay one fixed price than be nickel and dimed.

[Alhanelem]

Reading this exchange, I'm not surprised Pixela plays on Asura.
Even before it kind of took over as the server to be on, I'd heard from many that Asura was the cesspool of the game. lol

[Rinuko]

Even before it kind of took over as the server to be on, I'd heard from many that Asura was the cesspool of the game. lol

I used to play there for a few years back in 2015 to 2018. It was getting worse and I hear it's pretty bad now.
Only good thing with being on a populated server is the market but getting spammed from merc and rmt shouts was getting utterly annoying. You as a player shouldn't have to turn off chats to enjoy the game.

And SE not doing much/nothing about the botting situation also contributed.

[Pixela]

Yoshida

In regard to profitable operations, hiring server engineers and other staff to work exclusively on FFXI around-the-clock the whole year round would increase its expenses. So in Creative Business Unit III, engineering fees are expensed under FFXIV, while the FFXI team can submit proposals for tasks that require engineers (programmers). Once a proposal has been reviewed and approved, we have the programmers estimate the costs and then have a discussion with them. If we asked them to focus on FFXI for three months, for example, then FFXI would only incur costs for those three months. This allows us to keep costs down and is one of the perks of overseeing two MMORPGs in our division.

https://we-are-vanadiel.finalfantasyxi.com/post/?id=367&lang=en

[Rinuko]

https://we-are-vanadiel.finalfantasyxi.com/post/?id=367&lang=en

What you want said with this 3 months old interview?

[Alhanelem]

What you want said with this 3 months old interview?
He's actually citing the source for FFXI's expenses being billed under FFXIV. Which I would consider an acceptable source, coming from SE itself- but he's also long been asserting that they combine the playercounts of the games when talking about how many players they have, Which has never been said by SE and isn't provable otherwise.

But the purpose of that expense merging isn't what he wants us to think. They're simply doing it for efficiency. By putting the projects under one umbrella, they can have a single pool of talent and the FFXI producer (Matsui) makes a case for (usually this is done with a cost-benefit analysis or CBA) and asks for resources when he needs them. Of course this goes beyond the development staff, as the same customer support staff also handles both games. This has nothing to do whatsoever with deliberately trying to pad FFXIV's income or player count- and in fact they are only talking about expenses here- not income, and not player counts. This structure is what allows FFXI to keep operating as it does. Had Yoshida not stepped in, FFXI likely would have stopped getting any content updates long ago.