[dev1010] Spirits

[Malamasala]

We are at yet another job adjustments but no sight of spirits adjustments. When are they coming? There hasn't been a single spirit update since I bought this game 2003. (Not counting adding thunder spirit and dark spirit scrolls or Elemental Siphon, because neither of them adjusted spirits)

The issue is so severe it should have highest priority, borderline emergency maintenance level, and yet it seems to not even be considered. I've reported this issue every single year, and it seems like I'm wasting my time.

The worst part is probably that I haven't even gotten any feedback on this from the development team. Just constant new false hope from comments like "Thank you for your feedback, we'll look into this." Well, you've looked into it 8 years, do you have any form of reply to give me now?

What do one have to do to be worthy of getting a developer reply, if waiting 8 years is not good enough? Should I crawl on my legs and beg? I perfectly understand they can't reply to everything, but one 8 year old issue seems to me like a good candidate if they are going to reply to anything this year.

Am I perhaps not making it clear what question to forward to the development team?

"Not a single Summoner uses spirits since long before 2003. Are there any plans to update them? The problem is that they have too long wait between spells, are too random in spell selection and have to wait max delay after using the abilities "assault" and "retreat"".

It has gotten so bad, that currently I value a reply higher than an actual update. And I value an update really high.

[Dallas]

There have been 2 types of spirits released since WotG that show that SE no longer feels the old spirits are worthy opponents, but no evidence that these spirits will be released to SMN.

1) The "copycat" fiends in Campaign. These spirits cast whatever spell the SMN casts. This would be a great addition, if SMN had any real spells besides summons. Perhaps if they allowed Addendum: Dark Arts to expand past the subjob level, this would be acceptible.

2) The multi-element spirits in Abyssea. I don't see these spirits being any better than the junk we have.

The problem is that spirits are flawed from the ground up. You can't magically make them effective.

[Swords]

Siphon aside the only thing I can think of that SE did to spirits was adjust their behavior in casting spells, and the spirits spell repetuar. The only real problem that spirits have is an unreliable nature when it comes to casting, but I think you should take it upon yourself to find a practical use for these spirits to at least give them more meaning.

Example: Use spirits to help with yellow triggers in abyssea. They won't have all the spells but still have a few of them to use.

Additionally I would like to move to give Sprits updated spells to augment them with the recent level increase.

[Unaisis]

smn spirits can proc Yellow? O.o thats Kewl XD

[Swords]

I don't honestly know if they can or not, I don't play SMN. I don't see why they could'nt since all that really matters is the spell lands cleanly, but I've never really seen a SMN actually try to trigger Yellow with a spirit so it could'nt hurt to investigate.

[Karbuncle]

We might see more adjustments in the future, There's usually ~2/3 Installments.

Or we might not.

Who knows :|

Seems unlikely from 90~95 we wont see any new JA/JT, So at the very least we can look forward to "Additions"

[Miera]

Actually Spirits CAN proc yellow believe it or not. I was with a few friends fighting the Penguin NM out in Abyssea and we needed Freeze to proc and I had whipped out my Spirit and it did Cast said spell and proced. It was sheer luck and I wish I could have screen shotted it but I keep forgetting how to do that since I switched to PC.

I will keep saying this like I said in another thread, I think Spirits mechanics should be more like the Automaton's, even though the Automaton's AI is bad the Spirits are faaaar worse and at least the Automaton casts every 30ish seconds.

Automatons have the ability to see a Monster's health and determine what spell to use on it, I think a Spirit should. A Automaton See's its Master as well as their Party in low Health and it cures, I think Light Spirit should do that. Also Automaton have spell priory (which should be changed) and it is I think it was Na-spell > Heal > Enfeeble > Nuke and I think Spirits should work the same way.

Sorry edit, it was Freeze on account we didn't HAVE a BLM and that's what spell we were missing besides Blizzaga III

[Krisan]

I don't see how they were ever meant to even have ANY kind of use pre-siphon.. You can't control them, they have a ridiculous perp cost, and their spellcasting is sporadic and unreliable at best. In fact, on average the perp cost on these things is HIGHER than that of sustaining an avatar.. Why? Why on the face of Vana'diel would a tiny spirit cost more than the avatar of a powerful almost godlike entity?

Honestly.. Why not just remove the perp cost to them entirely (or at least lower it to something like 1MP/tick)? That might actually make them worth summoning from time to time.. And since you can't control them directly, or even rely upon them to do much, I don't think it would be all that unbalanced. Would give SMN something to throw out there in an emergency while they find a means of recovering MP, or.. just offer them a less useful Carbuncle replacement in every elemental flavor.

I don't know, ANYTHING would be better than what we have now.

[Miera]

Actually, you can Merit the Spirits perp cost down but I think they would cost the same that the normal Avatars would when you did, however, perp- cost doesn't apply anymore when it comes to Abyssea when you have /RDM MM Stormbird Full Moon Foeflayer, ect.. just me with the appropriate staff and MM and casting refresh on Myself which isn't needed my Spirits are free!

[Krisan]

Actually, you can Merit the Spirits perp cost down but I think they would cost the same that the normal Avatars would when you did, however, perp- cost doesn't apply anymore when it comes to Abyssea when you have /RDM MM Stormbird Full Moon Foeflayer, ect.. just me with the appropriate staff and MM and casting refresh on Myself which isn't needed my Spirits are free!
I tend to think outside of Abyssea when it comes to balance adjustments, because really.. Abyssea is pretty absurd, practically every job is a god inside of Abyssea as it is already. I think having more options outside of Abyssea would be nice personally, but I admittedly don't know what the ideal solution is to making these things useful.

[Swords]

Agreed, The whole proc yellow triggers with spirits was more of an idea off the top of my head.

[AtrixWolfe]

Actually Spirits CAN proc yellow believe it or not. I was with a few friends fighting the Penguin NM out in Abyssea and we needed Freeze to proc and I had whipped out my Spirit and it did Cast said spell and proced. It was sheer luck and I wish I could have screen shotted it but I keep forgetting how to do that since I switched to PC.

I will keep saying this like I said in another thread, I think Spirits mechanics should be more like the Automaton's, even though the Automaton's AI is bad the Spirits are faaaar worse and at least the Automaton casts every 30ish seconds.

Automatons have the ability to see a Monster's health and determine what spell to use on it, I think a Spirit should. A Automaton See's its Master as well as their Party in low Health and it cures, I think Light Spirit should do that. Also Automaton have spell priory (which should be changed) and it is I think it was Na-spell > Heal > Enfeeble > Nuke and I think Spirits should work the same way.

Sorry edit, it was Freeze on account we didn't HAVE a BLM and that's what spell we were missing besides Blizzaga III

So am I wrong in thinking that the spirits have post 75 spells? I swear I saw a light elemental cast Cure VI. Also summoner is one of the few jobs that can proc both pearl and azure are they not? Summons proc pearl with things like predator claws, and elemental nukes would get you azure?

In any case, supposedly you can get elemental cast time down to 12s with enough +summoner skill gear. And with astral flow that is 6s.

The light spirit I know will target part members and heal them but only if in yellow iirc. This is all based off the wiki, so take with a grain of salt. It seems odd to me they don't have access to post 75 spell however. I have also heard their intelligence increases with summoner skill but I could be entirely off base.

[Rezeak]

I need the pacts for JD Vodka and Southern comfort.

Honestly rather have SE focus on the parts of SMN that work rather than spirits.

[Miera]

So am I wrong in thinking that the spirits have post 75 spells? I swear I saw a light elemental cast Cure VI. Also summoner is one of the few jobs that can proc both pearl and azure are they not? Summons proc pearl with things like predator claws, and elemental nukes would get you azure?

In any case, supposedly you can get elemental cast time down to 12s with enough +summoner skill gear. And with astral flow that is 6s.

The light spirit I know will target part members and heal them but only if in yellow iirc. This is all based off the wiki, so take with a grain of salt. It seems odd to me they don't have access to post 75 spell however. I have also heard their intelligence increases with summoner skill but I could be entirely off base.Unfortunately Avatars Nukes and Mele BPs will only get you Pearl light because inside of Abyssea SE categorizes Avatar Elemental Spells as Pearl kills for whatever reason. I was using my Light pact last night in Abyssea for the giggles and I saw it Cast Banish IV, not sure if it had that spell already...

[AtrixWolfe]

Unfortunately Avatars Nukes and Mele BPs will only get you Pearl light because inside of Abyssea SE categorizes Avatar Elemental Spells as Pearl kills for whatever reason. I was using my Light pact last night in Abyssea for the giggles and I saw it Cast Banish IV, not sure if it had that spell already...


Ehh well for whatever reason lol. It's weird tho :O I also heard that the light spirit will heal alliance members in yellow just fyi for everyone.

[Miera]

Yeah, if ever it feels like it lol. I've only seen mine use Curaga IV once in my SMN life lolz

[Alhanelem]

Spirits don't need adjusting. Avatars are supposed to be the mainstay of a summoner. Spirits are able to do two things and do these things well:
-Give you MP with elemental siphon
-Cast very quickly to enable you to get a monster off your arse

I don't understand why people want "good" spirits so badly. They shouldn't be better than the avatars, they're just generic elementals. Outside of the uses described above, the only reason the exist is that so people who didn't get the zilart expansion would have more than one spell (carbuncle) in their spell list, as Summoner does not require zilart but all of the avatars require zilart or a later expansion.

Oh, small note about banish: Light spirit actually had Banish III before WHM was able to learn it, as well. But outside of this oddity, the spirits are not learning new spells, and almost seem as if they're level capped at 75, as they take more damage too. It might be a sign of tier II elementals.

[Swords]

But outside of this oddity, the spirits are not learning new spells, and almost seem as if they're level capped at 75, as they take more damage too. It might be a sign of tier II elementals.

Mayhaps indication of Abyssea elementals eventually?

[Karbuncle]

Could also be SE Ignored/forgot to uncap Spirits and decided "Eh, They suck, Siphon only who cares"

Which would make me sad :(

[Gennadi]

We are at yet another job adjustments but no sight of spirits adjustments. When are they coming? There hasn't been a single spirit update since I bought this game 2003. (Not counting adding thunder spirit and dark spirit scrolls or Elemental Siphon, because neither of them adjusted spirits)

The issue is so severe it should have highest priority, borderline emergency maintenance level, and yet it seems to not even be considered. I've reported this issue every single year, and it seems like I'm wasting my time.

The worst part is probably that I haven't even gotten any feedback on this from the development team. Just constant new false hope from comments like "Thank you for your feedback, we'll look into this." Well, you've looked into it 8 years, do you have any form of reply to give me now?

What do one have to do to be worthy of getting a developer reply, if waiting 8 years is not good enough? Should I crawl on my legs and beg? I perfectly understand they can't reply to everything, but one 8 year old issue seems to me like a good candidate if they are going to reply to anything this year.

Am I perhaps not making it clear what question to forward to the development team?

"Not a single Summoner uses spirits since long before 2003. Are there any plans to update them? The problem is that they have too long wait between spells, are too random in spell selection and have to wait max delay after using the abilities "assault" and "retreat"".

It has gotten so bad, that currently I value a reply higher than an actual update. And I value an update really high.

I believe SE has you on its /blacklist ;)

[Soundwave]

Another tool in the bag for smn...spirit update would be nice but can't be to nice or we gonna start using spirits instead of avatars hmmmm. (I'm sure that wont happen but food for thought.) Allowing more control over spirits just for abessya proc yellow but meh...it is a idea

I rather see spirits deleted from the Smn and use Ele Siphon on avatars >.>


Spirits don't need adjusting. Avatars are supposed to be the mainstay of a summoner. Spirits are able to do two things and do these things well:
-Give you MP with elemental siphon
-Cast very quickly to enable you to get a monster off your arse

1st true 2nd kinda meh, only because you cannnn get it off your butt, however you're gonna have a bit of hate just from casting the spirit, and that hate is very boarder line if soloing and even using + Enmity gear for pets....this really depends on the mob really...so its debatable.

[Karbuncle]

I dunno, Spirits aren't designed to be better than Avatars for Sure. Nothing they can do to Spirits better than Avatars.

however, They're still a part of the job, It would be nice if they weren't just forgotten relics useful for only 1 Job Ability. Maybe Give spirits their new spells. Reduce their Perp cost a little.

The way i always looked at spirits were "Man made" Avatars (Hence They're buyable/spells), So my reasoning for them being higher MP Cost is that making a Spirit/Spell would be rougher than a mutual pact with an Avatar (Hence Avatars = less MP cost)

however theres another side, Avatars are much stronger, logic stands they'd be harder to maintain. So its a toss up. I think Spirits Should cost half of what they do now. Change "Spirit Per Cost" Merits to "Spirit Spell Casting time" merits. No one will merit it still but it would be nice.

Really, its obvious Spirits will never be better than avatars, But I'd like if they weren't just tossed aside and forgotten.

However, If I had to chose between a buff in Avatars, and a buff in spirits, I'd chose avatars :|

[Soundwave]

Really, its obvious Spirits will never be better than avatars, But I'd like if they weren't just tossed aside and forgotten.

However, If I had to chose between a buff in Avatars, and a buff in spirits, I'd chose avatars :|

Ya I agree, was just tossing it around.....that would be another day.....FFXI stood still....

[Krisan]

Spirits don't need adjusting. Avatars are supposed to be the mainstay of a summoner. Spirits are able to do two things and do these things well:
-Give you MP with elemental siphon
-Cast very quickly to enable you to get a monster off your arse

I don't understand why people want "good" spirits so badly. They shouldn't be better than the avatars, they're just generic elementals. Outside of the uses described above, the only reason the exist is that so people who didn't get the zilart expansion would have more than one spell (carbuncle) in their spell list, as Summoner does not require zilart but all of the avatars require zilart or a later expansion.

Oh, small note about banish: Light spirit actually had Banish III before WHM was able to learn it, as well. But outside of this oddity, the spirits are not learning new spells, and almost seem as if they're level capped at 75, as they take more damage too. It might be a sign of tier II elementals.
No one wants them better than Avatars, I don't think. They just want them to be practical in their use.. In all my days, I have never used an Spirits to "get something off of me" like you mention - it simply doesn't work that way. Just summoning one generates sizable hate, which is bad enough, but Spirits are also prone to not reacting the way you want them to, sometimes doing the complete opposite thing you need of them. They also aren't particularly good tanks either, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from. The extremely high perp costs also makes it so that in a real emergency, where you're probably low on MP.. you're going to likely lose the spirit remarkably fast. At the absolute most, it can be used as a distraction for a couple of seconds so you can run away, which is a complete and utter disgrace if you consider that as the only thing they should ever be good for.

Likewise, we didn't always have siphon, so I again don't know what these things were meant to be good for prior to that skill being implemented.. The spirits seem wholly worthless in every other regard than using Siphon.


However, If I had to chose between a buff in Avatars, and a buff in spirits, I'd chose avatars :|
I don't see why we don't deserve both, really. SMN is such a ridiculously high MP costing job, and we really don't do much of anything that everyone else can't already do (and better). We at least had some advantages with buffs for awhile, but SCH pretty much replaced us entirely in that regard when they were introduced. We can potentially deal some good damage, but it seems unreliable compared to every other job just how much damage we're doing. And besides being tied down by our exorbitantly high MP costs (outside of Abyssea, anyway.. this doesn't matter to anyone in Abyssea anymore) we're also crippled to what we can do by our recast timers..

SMN as a whole never seemed as though it was designed especially well, they had interesting ideas for it but it never panned out in such a way that made it extremely useful. It was nice when we got auras awhile back so that we could refresh a whole party or what not, but the fact those auras crippled the Avatar's usability and promoted doing nothing so that you'd get the most out of the buff is just an insult if you ask me, really.

[Andylynn]

I fail to see how this is 'emergency maint' important... spirits are unnecessary, they don't need a buff, adjustment, whatever. Use your avatars, theyre beastly as it is.

[Krisan]

I fail to see how this is 'emergency maint' important... spirits are unnecessary, they don't need a buff, adjustment, whatever. Use your avatars, theyre beastly as it is.
You don't see a problem with a job having a set of skills\spells that are more or less wholly worthless? Siphon isn't a good enough excuse for their use, they existed long before Siphon did and so that obviously isn't what they were solely designed for.

[Andylynn]

You don't see a problem with a job having a set of skills\spells that are more or less wholly worthless? Siphon isn't a good enough excuse for their use, they existed long before Siphon did and so that obviously isn't what they were solely designed for.

Yes, I don't see a problem with it, every job has skills/ws that have really no use at all, and you dont see us crying bloody murder. (cough breaker skills like hamanoha, ancient circle etc.)

[Krisan]

Yes, I don't see a problem with it, every job has skills/ws that have really no use at all, and you dont see us crying bloody murder. (cough breaker skills like hamanoha, ancient circle etc.)
I personally don't think any job should have completely worthless skills, and I don't see the logic in supporting their existence. Why have them there at all if they're worthless? Remove them entirely if they're so pointless, either that or rework them so they're not, that's the intelligent way of handling things. Leaving something there that's broken or inherently useless is just plain stupid.

[Airget]

Hm off the top of my head, make Spirits a Support like ability. Let's say the Summoner can summon a spirit and synchronize it with a player, with that Synchronization in effect they gain access to a list of spells that they can only use on that player to enhance them.

Example:
Fire Spirit
Infused Stat Boost:
STR+10
ATT+50
Crit Hit Bonus +5
Fire Resist +50
Water Resist -100
Spirit Stress 0/50
Base Perp Cost: 15/tick
"Spirit Stress based on summoner's skill the average tic is 1 every 3 mins with lower skill it's more but once the limit is reached the user receives "Spirit Fatigue" and is unable to synchronize with a spirit for a set amount of time. The effect also doesn't wear off if you die or change jobs."


--Spells you can cast on the target--
Fire Rage "Increase STR" (.5 Stress Based increasing by .1 every cast) EX. 2 cast would add 1.1 Stress MP cost: 20 Perp. +1
Flame Shield "Increase Fire Resist" (.5 Stress with .1 Every cast) MP Cost: 20, Perp. +1
Fire Conjure "Add Flare to targets spell list" (10 Stress) MP Cost: 200, Perp. +10
Melt "Increase damage against Ice based foes" (5 Stress) MP Cost: 100, Perp +5
Fire Boost "Increase Fire Based dmg, including SC" (5 Stress) MP Cost: 75 Perp +3

--------
It's just an idea that could add flavor to a SMN, while it would be impossible to give full control of a spirit because of BLM and others jobs that may find it unfair to be able to control the actual actions of the spirit. If one were to tailor spirits to act as a vessel to enhance other players it could work. By putting the proper limitations on it while it wouldn't become something to overshadow another job but an opportunity to create and flourish more strategies.

With the idea on hand while it would be possible to infuse spirits on 5 players at once one will have to take into account the perp cost.
By casting 5 spirits you would be at 75/tick of MP loss if you consider the idea of trying to focus 5 elements on 5 different targets, then on top of that trying to enhance them would add even more stress to the user. Basically I was trying to think of something that would sound like something a Summoner would have the ability to do, and the idea of them being able to enhance other players through spirits does sound like something they should be able to do lol.

--Hm the perp cost is prollya tad costly based on the actual amount of MP a user has access to so maybe the base perp can be 5 and slowly increasing based on the spells the user adds to the target lol.

[DerianX]

I would guess that the only reason they even exist is because avatars used to be difficult to acquire. SE probably felt that summoners should have something readily available other than Carbuncle back when Zilart first came out.

I must say though, that I've always found it odd that they have such a high perpetuation cost.

[Alhanelem]

I would guess that the only reason they even exist is because avatars used to be difficult to acquire. SE probably felt that summoners should have something readily available other than Carbuncle back when Zilart first came out.

I must say though, that I've always found it odd that they have such a high perpetuation cost.
That's part of it- As I explained earlier- Summoner was added, sort of a suprise, with the prepratory patch for Rise of the Zilart. It does not itself require rise of the zilart, however all of the avatars do require an expansion, except for carbuncle which is given for free. If you didn't get the expansion, carbuncle would be your only spell if the spirits weren't there.

[Swords]

I would guess that the only reason they even exist is because avatars used to be difficult to acquire. SE probably felt that summoners should have something readily available other than Carbuncle back when Zilart first came out.

I must say though, that I've always found it odd that they have such a high perpetuation cost.

Then again, most SMN based mobs use elementals so it stands to at least a degree they "intended" on giving them more purpose than they have now back when they were implemented. It's just hard to say really, I mean did SE put the demon Summoners in castle zhval before SMN was accessable or after.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I find the urgency of the OP amusing

however It did give me an idea

maybe they could add a buff to avatar's favor for the spirits to make them a bit more useful.. of course it doesn't have to be tomorrow >_>

like air elemental could be a 3~5% haste favor

or fire elemental could be 5~10 str favor

minor buffs like that.. nothing overpowering mind you.. but could be plausibly useful at some point

[Korpg]

why not, instead, ask for something in the lines of "Sic" and "Ready" that BST have?

Ask for the ability to choose the spells.

[Krisan]

why not, instead, ask for something in the lines of "Sic" and "Ready" that BST have?

Ask for the ability to choose the spells.
This would be the obvious solution, but at the same time there would also be little point to being able to choose what they cast. The Avatars already can cast a few tiers of magic that the Spirits are capable of.. The Spirits have access to more magic overall, yes, but then that makes the spells the Avatars cast rather pointless. (Why bother with the Avatar which takes longer to summon, if you can cast the same magic and more with the Spirit?)

The fact they're autonomous isn't entirely the problem, it's that they're stupid most of the time, and that they have a ridiculously high perp cost to maintain. (Higher than that of the Avatar's, up to a certain level, which doesn't even make sense.) I'm not honestly sure what would be the ideal solution to them, but I do think lowering the perp cost (or even eliminating it) would be a step in the right direction.. Beyond that I don't know, an attack command so that you can at least choose the target they go after would be a decent improvement if coupled with a lower cost though.

[Soundwave]

Adding a JA for a different stance for spirits could be an idea...however It may be a bit unbalanced/unfair due to the fact we have to cast a avatar/spirit in order for the proper effect.

Whm and Sam can switch at will, unless they make avatars 1 sec cast.:mad:

In the end spirits being so random is lame, just as lame as BP based on game day/moon phase. Which is why I'm glad to see Diamond Storm etc.

[Juri_Licious]

SE make Spirits 1 MP per tick please.

[Korpg]

This would be the obvious solution, but at the same time there would also be little point to being able to choose what they cast. The Avatars already can cast a few tiers of magic that the Spirits are capable of.. The Spirits have access to more magic overall, yes, but then that makes the spells the Avatars cast rather pointless. (Why bother with the Avatar which takes longer to summon, if you can cast the same magic and more with the Spirit?)

You misunderstand. Having an ability to choose the spells would make SMN a least a little more useful in procing yellow. Why you ask? Because Spirits have all spells a BLM (exception, Teir 3 -ga) and WHM (exception, Banishga II) would have. With the ability to find the element weakness of a NM, you can have a SMN help proc yellow along with the BLM, WHM, BRD, and BLU/NIN.


The fact they're autonomous isn't entirely the problem, it's that they're stupid most of the time, and that they have a ridiculously high perp cost to maintain. (Higher than that of the Avatar's, up to a certain level, which doesn't even make sense.) I'm not honestly sure what would be the ideal solution to them, but I do think lowering the perp cost (or even eliminating it) would be a step in the right direction.. Beyond that I don't know, an attack command so that you can at least choose the target they go after would be a decent improvement if coupled with a lower cost though.
You also forget that spirits also have the same defense structure as elementals. You know how hard it is to whack on an elemental with physical damage only? Technically the same (I say technically because mob damage is different than ours). Also, as spellcasters go, they don't get interrupted (as much) as a BLM when they are getting whacked off.

Reducing the perp cost is a right direction, but reducing it below current avatar levels is just silly. I mean, it is so easy to get free avatars now without doing any of the TotM starves, there is no point in having spirits cost less than the avatars now.

[Teraniku]

I dunno, Spirits aren't designed to be better than Avatars for Sure. Nothing they can do to Spirits better than Avatars.

:| But they could use Spirits to make Avatars better for a limited time. For Example having Garuda and Air Spirit out increases Garuda's Physical and Magic Damage by XX%. Or you could do the whole Leviathan and the Water Spirit merge to form Siren, which would either increase damage or give more powerful abilities.

[Swords]

Could work out well, doubt the bonuses would outweigh just having two Garudas instead though. Of course maybe making it a multipler bonus like for each 1 Garuda to each 1 Air Spirit out on the field within a certain radius of each other they gain an increased bonus.

Example:
1 Air Spirit : 1 Garuda= Every Garuda 1.2x DMG/DEF/MAB/etc.
2 Air Spirits : 2 Garudas = Every Garuda 1.4x
3 Air Spirts : 3 Garudas = Every Garuda 1.6x
4 : 4 = 1.8x
5 : 5 = 2x

Cap it out at somewhere between 1.5x-2x multipler, to make it worth using but keep it from being too powerful. Throw in an effect such as, the Spirits HP is VERY gradually drained while in presence of the avatars of the corresponding element as a side effect. Like the avatar is absorbing power from the Spirit, but the avatars hp is gradually drained or powers decreased in the presence of an opposing element, like a Thunder Spirit in presence of Leviathan.

Then again heres just another crazy idea. Why not make each elemental present give an affinity bonus within a certain range of the Spirit, and each additional Spirit within the party/alliance only increases the affinity. Of course like with the counter-effect mentioned above, for each +1 in an effect it gives a -1 affinity for each opposing element.

Example:
2x Thunder Spirit = Thunder Affinity +2, -2 Earth Affinity
1x Ice Spirit = Ice Affinity +1, -1 Fire Affinity

[Duelle]

An idea I once had for spirits was to just entirely remove the Spirit's AI and make them untargetable. In exchange, the summoner gets access to a select spell library dependent on the spirit currently out and about. Fire Spirit active? You have (as an example) Fire I-III, Burn and Pyrohelix, but their damage modifiers are all derived from Summoning Magic skill with a small penalty in additional MP costs on top of spirit perpetuation. The downside is that none of that is hate-free (which is basically the benefit of having avatars out).

Spell lists and overall numbers would have to be looked at, but that'd be the gist of it.

[Krisan]

You misunderstand. Having an ability to choose the spells would make SMN a least a little more useful in procing yellow. Why you ask? Because Spirits have all spells a BLM (exception, Teir 3 -ga) and WHM (exception, Banishga II) would have. With the ability to find the element weakness of a NM, you can have a SMN help proc yellow along with the BLM, WHM, BRD, and BLU/NIN.
I simply don't think inside of Abyssea for balance adjustments. Frankly, I don't know why anyone does. Abyssea isn't balanced at all, and hardly any job needs any real adjustment to be viable inside Abyssea (you could throw practically anyone in there and they can half-ass their way to success with the right atma and temp items). I feel it's everything before Abyssea that matters in terms of balance, and of course.. eventually what comes after Abyssea, assuming much of anything ever does come after Abyssea.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to do this, it would. It'd be handy and it would give SMN something to actually do for a change in the endgame. But I'd rather have something that was more globally useful than something I can only make real use of in Abyssea.


You also forget that spirits also have the same defense structure as elementals. You know how hard it is to whack on an elemental with physical damage only? Technically the same (I say technically because mob damage is different than ours). Also, as spellcasters go, they don't get interrupted (as much) as a BLM when they are getting whacked off.

Reducing the perp cost is a right direction, but reducing it below current avatar levels is just silly. I mean, it is so easy to get free avatars now without doing any of the TotM starves, there is no point in having spirits cost less than the avatars now.
I've honestly never noticed the spirits having defense relative to Elementals. Admittedly I've never used them in a serious encounter before (for obvious reasons) but at the very least.. NPC spirits certainly die a hell of a lot faster than elementals. So unless this is just a player exclusive thing and I just never noticed because they're too unreliable to pull out into a serious encounter.. I don't know. Even with high defense though, I don't think they have considerably high health. From what little I have used them, I seem to recall them dying pretty quickly actually.. but it has probably been years now, so who knows.

And they don't necessarily have to remove perp or make it significantly lower, that was just a thought given how meh they are right now. I do not think they should cost more than the avatars though, and I'm iffy on them costing the same as avatars too.. Maybe a couple of MP less? Something around there anyway, it's silly for them to be so expensive.

[Korpg]

I simply don't think inside of Abyssea for balance adjustments. Frankly, I don't know why anyone does. Abyssea isn't balanced at all, and hardly any job needs any real adjustment to be viable inside Abyssea (you could throw practically anyone in there and they can half-ass their way to success with the right atma and temp items). I feel it's everything before Abyssea that matters in terms of balance, and of course.. eventually what comes after Abyssea, assuming much of anything ever does come after Abyssea.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to do this, it would. It'd be handy and it would give SMN something to actually do for a change in the endgame. But I'd rather have something that was more globally useful than something I can only make real use of in Abyssea.

Endgame nowadays is Abyssea. It will probably be like this for a while, until we get new or better content. But I still see for at least 3 years that Abyssea will be the new "sky" or "sea."

As for global use, good luck finding a reason to have a spirit out in the first place. Even if we are given the option of selecting spells, BP:Merit will always win out on damage. Elemental Siphon is the only reason why spirits have a use at the moment, and given our choice in spells, the only use outside of Abyssea.


I've honestly never noticed the spirits having defense relative to Elementals. Admittedly I've never used them in a serious encounter before (for obvious reasons) but at the very least.. NPC spirits certainly die a hell of a lot faster than elementals. So unless this is just a player exclusive thing and I just never noticed because they're too unreliable to pull out into a serious encounter.. I don't know. Even with high defense though, I don't think they have considerably high health. From what little I have used them, I seem to recall them dying pretty quickly actually.. but it has probably been years now, so who knows.

And they don't necessarily have to remove perp or make it significantly lower, that was just a thought given how meh they are right now. I do not think they should cost more than the avatars though, and I'm iffy on them costing the same as avatars too.. Maybe a couple of MP less? Something around there anyway, it's silly for them to be so expensive.

The reason why they die a whole hell of a lot faster than elementals is because mobs generally have more HP than players at the levels we fight them, which increase as we increase in levels. Since most pets (outside of BST jugs and Charmed pets) have roughly the same HP as players, don't be looking at staying alive against a NM solo. But the nice thing is, we can do a lot more damage to a mob (usually) than what they can do to us, so it evens out...somewhat.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Do avatars/spirits benefit from the SMN's atmas in Abyssea? Has anyone tried, say, ice spirit with Ultimate+Beyond? You may not be able to predict precisely what it will cast but you know it will be ice, so it will get the extra benefit from Beyond.

I always thought the reason spirits had higher perp is that the cost of their spells don't come out of the SMN's MP pool; if you want to have an avatar cast a spell you have to BP and use MP for it.

[Korpg]

Do avatars/spirits benefit from the SMN's atmas in Abyssea? Has anyone tried, say, ice spirit with Ultimate+Beyond? You may not be able to predict precisely what it will cast but you know it will be ice, so it will get the extra benefit from Beyond.

In theory, yes, that would work. Have I tried it? No.


I always thought the reason spirits had higher perp is that the cost of their spells don't come out of the SMN's MP pool; if you want to have an avatar cast a spell you have to BP and use MP for it.

That could be the reason why spirits cost so much to use.

[Malamasala]

I see people got into discussing some about why spirits are as they are. I'll toss in my theories I've built up over the years.

1) Perpetuation.

I believe spirits were added around level cap 50. SE knew Freeze cost like 300 MP, so they attempt to use this as a guideline to set spirit perpetuation. It may also be pure chance that a spirit usually drained 300 MP post 50. And while 300 MP for a spirit freeze and 300 MP for a BLM freeze seems very fair and balanced, you have to keep in mind that you can also get 300 MP binds. This is something SE Developers apparently didn't think of.

If we on the other hand want to assume that perpetuation is not linked to spell costs, then we can assume SE simply choose an arbitrary value that was higher than avatars to A) prevent you from kiting things with spirits for long times and B) Make you more motivated to beat the high level avatars and use them instead.

2. Spirit Defense

While true it has 50% physical damage reduction, you also have to keep in mind they have the same def as a SMN. When you take 350 damage, the spirit will "only" take 175 damage. Spirits also have roughly 1k HP at 75. (And probably not much more at higher levels).

In addition even with 50 skill over cap, a spirit's interruption rate is terrible. Any damage over 30 has a large chance at interrupting the spell. Meaning spirits are TERRIBLE at trying to solo something to death through spells. Light spirit wins here with their 0.5 seconds Holy.

3) Ancient old cripple bug

Or rather what I call a bug, since it prevents you from playing. In reality all spirits have two modes. Defensive and Offensive. In Defensive Light spirit casts cures and buffs. In Defensive, all other spirits just hum around because SE didn't want to give them enspells or stoneskin or anything else useful. Well, they probably have them, just that they only cast spells on things they see, and they can't seem themselves.

The thing is, in defensive mode they have HALF spell timer, and in offensive full. So SE designed it so that on assault the spirit turns into offensive mode with full spell recast delay, and on release it goes into defensive mode with full spell recast delay.

Pros: We get self-attacking spirits guarding our weak Summoners.
Cons: It is counter productive to give spirits any commands, since it sets spell timers to max.

If you compare to puppets, they only have one timer system that never resets, but instead they do not auto-defend their masters. The question is... do you want to use your pet for damage, or for fleeing? Summoner has flee pet, Puppet masters have DD pets.


That is more or less my theories from over the years. SE made some clever code, that backfired. I'd gladly only have carbuncle as bodyguard and lose spirit bodyguards for working assault commands. Though I'd be even happier if they didn't cast random stupid spells as well.

[Saenomo]

Personally, I would love to see Dual-type Elementals from Abyssea for Summoners.

A few light changes like spells for 76-99 and possibly a Ward or Rage option just to say "Buff" or "Nuke" for next cast. Don't actually give any control on the specifics or timing, but just sort of "Nuke next please" or "Buff next please" possibly with a target option like "/Ward <p2>"

[Dallas]

Do avatars/spirits benefit from the SMN's atmas in Abyssea?
Yes. I've had quickcast from Apoc proc on ancient magic. The spirits do NOT immediately cast again.

The problem with L90 spirits is that they dont actually seem to *be* L90. The stats look no better than L75.

[Eri]

Spirits hmmmm well one thing for sure some Spirits do get Spells i didn't ever see a player got...
light my Lightspirit cast Banish 4....

BUT except the bad recast times and the sheer randoness of Spells. They are not really helpfull on procing
like... they can yes... with a lot of luck... Personally i would like to see another Bloodpact thing aplying on spirits only so a seperate timer... where you can pick the Spell the spirit would still have like a min recast timers but you could actaully use the spells to proc... nerver found em useful outside of Abys. Ever.

Then again i totally would support some kind of Update... it better be a good one!

For the Atma thing ... i tryed adding a lot MAB atmas on Spirits. They do Apply... if only Spirits would nuke *glares at Sprit casting rasp* .

Or gimme at least that weird Abyssea Spirit things pretty please!

[Selzak]

The issue is so severe it should have highest priority, borderline emergency maintenance level, and yet it seems to not even be considered. I've reported this issue every single year, and it seems like I'm wasting my time.

Sure, it needs to be adjusted...but lol'd.

[Alhanelem]

We are at yet another job adjustments but no sight of spirits adjustments. When are they coming? Hopefully never. They serve the purposes they currently serve just fine and dont' need any other puprose.

I don't understand the big attachement to spirits. Avatars are supposed to be the mainstay of the job. Why do we want spirits to be so good? They have a certain amount of utility already and they're fine the way they are-

1) They cast quickly and as such can be used to lose aggro that is attacking you.
2) elemental siphon, self explanatory
3) light spirit's buffs are superior to your own with any subjob and can be handy if you really need them. Also the unique ability to cast curaga spells on other parties in an alliance.
4) As they're still locked to tier IV, there's some chance you can use them for yellow proc.

Forget the bleepin' spirits and give summoner buffs where it really needs them- like the cap on BP delay - or the resist rate of avatar enfeebling effects.

[Ravenmore]

Yes, I don't see a problem with it, every job has skills/ws that have really no use at all, and you dont see us crying bloody murder. (cough breaker skills like hamanoha, ancient circle etc.)

Almost all the elemental WS were used for nothing beofre they were used for procs, and some quest WSs were rarely used.

[Alhanelem]

Almost all the elemental WS were used for nothing beofre they were used for procs, and some quest WSs were rarely used.
Yes, but no one was complaining about this. They simply ignored them and used things that were worth using.

[Soundwave]

1) They cast quickly and as such can be used to lose aggro that is attacking you.

This was explained by another and I in this thread or possible another thread that...

The chances of this being successful is slim to none because if you smn a spirit just to get the mob off you....you are going to have serious hate issues for the rest of the fight.

I will welcome an adjustment to spirits however its not the end of the world that we don't get an adjustment to our spirits......we have our avatars that's our job and what makes a summoner a summoner.

[Korpg]

This was explained by another and I in this thread or possible another thread that...

The chances of this being successful is slim to none because if you smn a spirit just to get the mob off you....you are going to have serious hate issues for the rest of the fight.

I will welcome an adjustment to spirits however its not the end of the world that we don't get an adjustment to our spirits......we have our avatars that's our job and what makes a summoner a summoner.

Not really.

Times that you don't have an avatar up and you get aggro for whatever reason, that is a good enough reason to summon a spirit to GTFO of there.

Besides, you will be surprised by how much hate a SMN holds. Or has towards any mob.

[Alhanelem]

The chances of this being successful is slim to noneThe chances of it working is 100% to 100%, because it works every time. If you aggro something, even if the spirit misses, it will take the mob off you. The only way it can not work is if you don't have enough HP to take the 2 hits or so you'll probably take before the spirit starts attacking.

The spirits pretty much officially exist for one reason alone: So people who did not buy rise of the zilart would have more than just Carbuncle to summon, as Summoner was not an ROTZ job but all of the celestial avatars require Rise of the Zilart to obtain.

Spirits have their uses, and no further development time should be invested when they could add new avatars or improve the existing ones instead.

[Soundwave]

Well I know the both of you are pretty stubborn so it did not surprise me by your reply, however It may work but at a random cost.....

Alhanelem makes a bit more sense. Yes you do need HP to survive hits....butttttt...at the cost of you having to try to cure yourself

(By the time you are far enough away...during this buffing/curing process your spirit will normally be dead now.....possible have time for maybe one spell.)

Depends mainly on what you are fighting....an NM of some sort this situation will only accrue.

In other words again it will not be a healthy fight and you will lose more often than you win.

[Dallas]

If you summon a spirit and can get away, why aren't you replacing the weak spirit with an avatar?

[Alhanelem]

Alhanelem makes a bit more sense. Yes you do need HP to survive hits....butttttt...at the cost of you having to try to cure yourself
If you summon a spirit and can get away, why aren't you replacing the weak spirit with an avatar?The whole point here is to get away. Not to fight. If you can get away and want to kill whatever aggroed you, sure, yes you can summon an avatar. The point in using spirits this way is you can more quickly pull them out in an emergency.

[Dallas]

In Soundwave's example, the spirit was not sufficient to resolve the emergency.

[Soundwave]

So you get away, the spirit dies while you are in mid cast....the monster is trucking to you you start to cast another avatar or maybe "another spirit" due to the fact that you didn't get far enough or w/e spell u just casted took a bit. Your gonna create that hate again while summoning near a mob.

You are going to have a very ugly fight plain and simple you must be living in a perfect world where no mistakes occur.

[Ophiuchus]

Back when 75 was the level cap I actually used spirits for quite a great deal. With 5/5 elemental perp cost merits I found spirits at that time to actually be better then carby or other avatars for the long pet kiting solos. With the right equipment, sublimation from /sch, and even non-weather/day matching elemental siphons I could keep the spirits out indefinite. In those situations, though their damage was less than avatars, their mp cost per damage dealt was much more efficient esp if you used spirits that either only nuke or cast 1 enfeeb(thunder and fire spirits).

In addition it was much better in longer solo fights to use spirits because the action of spirits casting spells adds absolutely zero hate to the player, as opposed to issuing a BP command with an avatar which generates a minimal value of hate but hate none the less.

Back when the cap was raised to 80 I remember reaching 80 and taking the earth spirit out, since they added stone V, and was disappointed when I saw it start to cast stone IV. In my irritation I immediately called gm to report it as I saw it as a bug since previously spirits got the same level spells as their BLM counterparts. The gm told me that the situation was nothing that wasn't already known, and was "working as intended." And from that point I /shutdown'd and quit the game for the rest of the summer >.>.

I'd definitely be down for an update so spirits, even if just adding the recent tier V(or VI for cure) spells to them.

[Alhanelem]

In Soundwave's example, the spirit was not sufficient to resolve the emergency.Uh, yes it is. Unless that mob runs at flee speed, you can find the nearest zone.


With 5/5 elemental perp cost meritsExcept that this is a massive waste compared to anything else you could spend the merits on (that's what they should cost in the first place...). All the other merits increase effectiveness. This one just reduces MP cost. Aside form the fact that the spirits casting spells are massively inferior to anyone or anything else casting the same spell.

[Malamasala]

Except that this is a massive waste compared to anything else you could spend the merits on (that's what they should cost in the first place...). All the other merits increase effectiveness. This one just reduces MP cost. Aside form the fact that the spirits casting spells are massively inferior to anyone or anything else casting the same spell.

Uhm, you couldn't be more wrong.

Pet attack does nothing. 5 merits in it will roughly give you 5 more damage on your BP:Rage. It is so useless that you'd only pick it if there was nothing else to pick.

Pet accuracy does nothing for BP:Rages if you got enough skill over cap. At that point it only helps pet melee, and I don't know how much 15 accuracy helps that, but I have never seen any melee jobs stop at +15 accuracy and say that now they'll eat meat.

Pet magic accuracy does nothing as well. I've had merits in it, and my spells were as resisted as always. Summoning over skill helps more, and again is the way to go.

That leaves pet MAB, as a good investment for 5 merits. And your last 5 merits can either be wasted on the above 3 useless choices, or invested in spirit perpetuation. I went with spirit perpetuation since it actually lets you use them more freely than before. (Even if you can hardly use them at all)


Back when 75 was the level cap I actually used spirits for quite a great deal. With 5/5 elemental perp cost merits I found spirits at that time to actually be better then carby or other avatars for the long pet kiting solos.

I don't know what you were fighting, but I dozens of bad memories from sicing my spirit on a EM mob, just to have it interrupt every single spell that was attempted to be cast. With skill past the cap I may add. It seems to me the only monsters you can use spirits on, are casters, since they stop meleeing your pet to cast spells and allow your pet to cast a spell back.

It is a bit unfair that you can hit an elemental 20 times and not interrupt them, but a EM mob can just hit your spirit once and ruin your spell.

Alhanelem. I'd like to point out a typical scenario that spirits also can't save you from.

You are in a group of aggro monsters, and one accidentally aggro you while recasting sneak. You toss up spirit to save you, and you are saved. Now you cast sneak to keep walking.... BAM. Monster is on you due to hate from sneak spell. At this case your only savior is if your spirit decided to cast tier IV, else you are going to die.

I will add that I've never survived getting aggro in a group of aggro monsters just because of this. I only survive if it is a single aggro monster that I can run safely from and then start killing it or zone.

[Dallas]

Uh, yes it is. Unless that mob runs at flee speed, you can find the nearest zone.

Not if you are near dead and there are undead in the zone. Surely someone like you can appreciate that exceptions exist. You seem to thrive on that kind of logic.

[Korpg]

Not if you are near dead and there are undead in the zone. Surely someone like you can appreciate that exceptions exist. You seem to thrive on that kind of logic.

So what do you suggest, oh master of everything SMN?

[Korpg]

Back when 75 was the level cap I actually used spirits for quite a great deal. With 5/5 elemental perp cost merits I found spirits at that time to actually be better then carby or other avatars for the long pet kiting solos. With the right equipment, sublimation from /sch, and even non-weather/day matching elemental siphons I could keep the spirits out indefinite. In those situations, though their damage was less than avatars, their mp cost per damage dealt was much more efficient esp if you used spirits that either only nuke or cast 1 enfeeb(thunder and fire spirits).

In addition it was much better in longer solo fights to use spirits because the action of spirits casting spells adds absolutely zero hate to the player, as opposed to issuing a BP command with an avatar which generates a minimal value of hate but hate none the less.

Back when the cap was raised to 80 I remember reaching 80 and taking the earth spirit out, since they added stone V, and was disappointed when I saw it start to cast stone IV. In my irritation I immediately called gm to report it as I saw it as a bug since previously spirits got the same level spells as their BLM counterparts. The gm told me that the situation was nothing that wasn't already known, and was "working as intended." And from that point I /shutdown'd and quit the game for the rest of the summer >.>.

I'd definitely be down for an update so spirits, even if just adding the recent tier V(or VI for cure) spells to them.

You have a very...."interesting"....way of spending 5 Group 1 SMN merits.

Please enlighten us why you think making the cost of spirits the same as level 75 Avatars was a good idea and more useful than Carbuncle when he was one of the only 4 Avatars you could get for free at the time.

I mean, sure, you could siphon the mp cost away every 5 minutes, but why do you argue *in another post* that physical/magical attack merits are "worthless?"

[Alhanelem]

any stat bonus, no matter how trivial > lowering MP cost of spirits. Spirits are garbage, no matter what. Making them cheaper doesn't make them better.


Uhm, you couldn't be more wrong.You're the one who couldnt be more wrong. You're right that avatar attack merits don't do much. Avatar accuracy, on the other hand, does a lot more, as does Avatar Magic Attack, which has a MAJOR effect and summoning skill has no effect here. However, any stat bonus, no matter how trivial > lowering MP cost of spirits. Spirits are garbage, no matter what. Making them cheaper doesn't make them better.


Pet magic accuracy does nothing as well. I've had merits in it, and my spells were as resisted as always. Summoning over skill helps more, and again is the way to go.you're doing something wrong. I had a horrible land rate for Thunderstorm against Einherjar Odin; After meriting magic accuracy, they were landing significantly more. Summoning skill is icing on the cake, not a substitute. You should have both, especially given that 3 magic accuracy is pretty clearly > 1 skill over cap.

any stat bonus, no matter how trivial > lowering MP cost of spirits. Spirits are garbage, no matter what. Making them cheaper certainly doesn't make them better.

I'll keep saying that until you realize it.

[Korpg]

With gear, you can overcome the 5 merits needed for physical/magical accuracy to make avatars a lot more effective than before.

Which makes Att/M.Att merits much much much more useful.

[Alhanelem]

With gear, you can overcome the 5 merits needed for physical/magical accuracy to make avatars a lot more effective than before.

Which makes Att/M.Att merits much much much more useful.
Agreed, acc is much less important than it used to be. But the fact still remains that any other group 1 merit > spirit perp cost.

[Dallas]

So what do you suggest, oh master of everything SMN?

Read the posts that already exist and stop embarassing yourself.

[Korpg]

Read the posts that already exist and stop embarassing yourself.

Guess the concept of sarcasm is beyond your degree of thinking.

All I seen you suggest is your opinion of spirits not being effective for running away from a mob you need to zone.

I'm surprised you haven't suggested to melee the mob as a SMN yet.

Also surprised to see you haven't called everyone gimp for not having an Emp staff either.

[Soundwave]

Uh, yes it is. Unless that mob runs at flee speed, you can find the nearest zone.


Oh so now we are zoning instead of understand the issue at hand, nice. But I know you wont agree which is cool, It's just that I know there are issue when summing a spirit when the mob has a chance to get near you and cause a issue. Please realize that not everybody lives in this perfect world you have created for yourself.


I'm surprised you haven't suggested to melee the mob as a SMN yet.


That's not fair! We haven't really stated what we are fighting anyways, but I would assume everybody think we are dealing with a type of NM when soloing not a normal mob.

[GlobalVariable]

As long as the actions of the spirits are random, these will forever be used only as a battery. Should just rename the scrolls to "duracell pact: element"...

[Alhanelem]

I'm surprised you haven't suggested to melee the mob as a SMN yet.I wasn't going to comment again, but this did it for me. You say this as if it's something that should be seen as taboo or not allowed. If you've invested the time in it and gotten appropriate gear, it's not just possible, it's very strong.

//I have the empyrean staff- and full merits in staff skill. And seriously, it's one of the easiest empyreans to get- The item trials are ONLY for staff, so you never have competition for it, and since 95% of the time those tusks and fangs are hitting the floor when anyone fights those NMs, you can probably get them for free/cheap from those groups even if you don't have an LS to farm pops with.

While you're busy telling people they can't melee on summoner, I'm pushing out melee DoT comparable with other 2H weapons in abyssea- that plus 6k+ (or much more under certain circumstances) predator claws.
LOLmeleeSMN? I think not. The stigma associated with this is created by closed minded players who simply label summoner a "mage" and say "mages can't melee."

I cant help but laugh at anyone doing magian staves for perpetuation cost- You don't even need perp on the weapon slot to get free avatars anymore. You don't need an empyrean staff, but Soulscourge is basically the best "normal" staff for SMN, and it's not difficult to get.

There are situations where I like to make use of the magical end of SMN, maximizing maginess and using the elemental BPs, which can also pump out very high damage- there are a number of NMs and fights where this is an ideal strategy. I am open to all play styles- and so should everyone else be.

//Normally I dislike Dallas with a passion. But the melee summoner playstyle is sound and functional and while I disagree with him on most subjects, I don't disagree with this.

[Dallas]

We should not let Korpg derail this thread with melee SMN. I know of at least 3 active threads he could visit without getting this thread locked.

BTW, gratz on your weapon.

[Korpg]

I wasn't going to comment again, but this did it for me. You say this as if it's something that should be seen as taboo or not allowed. If you've invested the time in it and gotten appropriate gear, it's not just possible, it's very strong.

//I have the empyrean staff- and full merits in staff skill. And seriously, it's one of the easiest empyreans to get- The item trials are ONLY for staff, so you never have competition for it, and since 95% of the time those tusks and fangs are hitting the floor when anyone fights those NMs, you can probably get them for free/cheap from those groups even if you don't have an LS to farm pops with.

While you're busy telling people they can't melee on summoner, I'm pushing out melee DoT comparable with other 2H weapons in abyssea- that plus 6k+ (or much more under certain circumstances) predator claws.
LOLmeleeSMN? I think not. The stigma associated with this is created by closed minded players who simply label summoner a "mage" and say "mages can't melee."

I cant help but laugh at anyone doing magian staves for perpetuation cost- You don't even need perp on the weapon slot to get free avatars anymore. You don't need an empyrean staff, but Soulscourge is basically the best "normal" staff for SMN, and it's not difficult to get.

There are situations where I like to make use of the magical end of SMN, maximizing maginess and using the elemental BPs, which can also pump out very high damage- there are a number of NMs and fights where this is an ideal strategy. I am open to all play styles- and so should everyone else be.

//Normally I dislike Dallas with a passion. But the melee summoner playstyle is sound and functional and while I disagree with him on most subjects, I don't disagree with this.

I don't mind if anyone else melees as their SMN. By all means, go for it.

But telling everyone that they are gimp by NOT meleeing on their SMN, thats what gets me.

Besides, the way Dallas states it, he HAS to melee to keep his avatar out. His gear that he has posted on another thread (I believe its that pet one of his) requires him to keep meleeing just to get MP back from perp cost and BP usage. I already argued why he shouldn't melee in a group setting, so I won't do so here.

I hope that you have a standby set that would let you not have to melee to keep MP up for the instances that meleeing on SMN would not be beneficial for you or the group you are in.

[Alhanelem]

But telling everyone that they are gimp by NOT meleeing on their SMN, thats what gets me.Don't worry, that's not me, and that's where I become at odds with him. There are many fun and effective ways to utilize summoner. The only real problem right now is summoner in gneneral has been really minimized by the current "wait for proc/TH buildup then kill" metagame.


Besides, the way Dallas states it, he HAS to melee to keep his avatar out. His gear that he has posted on another threadOutside of abyssea it might be more necessary, but inside, with your inflated stats and DD atmas, you can keep your perp and refresh on and still perform just fine. Granted, you can take it off and probably do more damage, but it does create a sense of urgency in maintaining your MP- It's still not super difficult, because Myrkr gives so much MP back and then ups your DoT, but if you're in trouble, it could make the difference between dying and not.

[Xellith]

We are at yet another job adjustments but no sight of spirits adjustments. When are they coming? There hasn't been a single spirit update since I bought this game 2003. (Not counting adding thunder spirit and dark spirit scrolls or Elemental Siphon, because neither of them adjusted spirits)

The issue is so severe it should have highest priority, borderline emergency maintenance level, and yet it seems to not even be considered. I've reported this issue every single year, and it seems like I'm wasting my time.

The worst part is probably that I haven't even gotten any feedback on this from the development team. Just constant new false hope from comments like "Thank you for your feedback, we'll look into this." Well, you've looked into it 8 years, do you have any form of reply to give me now?

What do one have to do to be worthy of getting a developer reply, if waiting 8 years is not good enough? Should I crawl on my legs and beg? I perfectly understand they can't reply to everything, but one 8 year old issue seems to me like a good candidate if they are going to reply to anything this year.

Am I perhaps not making it clear what question to forward to the development team?

"Not a single Summoner uses spirits since long before 2003. Are there any plans to update them? The problem is that they have too long wait between spells, are too random in spell selection and have to wait max delay after using the abilities "assault" and "retreat"".

It has gotten so bad, that currently I value a reply higher than an actual update. And I value an update really high.

Unfortunately for everyone who plays FFXI, the dev team has a philosophy - If nobody plays the job then don't give it updates. If people do play the job then do give it updates.

[Malamasala]

Agreed, acc is much less important than it used to be. But the fact still remains that any other group 1 merit > spirit perp cost.

Keep telling yourself that. There are studies and tests done on the subject that shows that they are useless.

I've run a very basic test myself on this.
STR atma -> slight damage increase
Attack atma -> hardly noticable increase
STR+attack atma -> some damage increase

My theory is that avatars have too low STR to benefit from attack bonus. Basically their existing attack allows them to hit damage cap... which is low due to being BLMs with the STR of a BLM. Increasing STR makes your attack uncapped, so it can hit harder, but not guaranteed to. Raising both is the only solid choice.

If anyone want to seriously find out, they can do more tests. I have a good enough indication that attack isn't worth it to not bother with collecting such gear.

[Malamasala]

Unfortunately for everyone who plays FFXI, the dev team has a philosophy - If nobody plays the job then don't give it updates. If people do play the job then do give it updates.

It has more to do with nobody in the dev team, or the testing group, playing SMN. I'm sure people just job swap to SMN for the tests and says "Yea, I could summon this avatar and trigger BP, job works!".

Because the skill over cap system would never have passed if they had any serious testers that noticed that "hey, if I level up a level, my skill becomes uncapped and I lose efficiency" or "Hey, I got 50 skill over cap, which is amazing, and yet it only extends crimson howl to slightly past 1 min duration. What gives?"

I'm just glad they said "Screw this, we aren't adding SMN to FF14", so that they indirectly could admit that they haven't done a single thing correct with SMN since 2001. 10 years and still no clue how you'd make a mage function with a staff, spirits and avatars.

[Alhanelem]

Keep telling yourself that. There are studies and tests done on the subject that shows that they are useless.Spirit perp cost is useless. Stat atmas are not. The effect may be low, but it's not zero and anything greater than zero = more useful than spirit perp cost.

You've also obviously never don predator claws with dd atma sets- the damage increases dramatically, not slightly. Those increase your attack a lot more than avatar physical attack merits do, yes. but everything helps, whether your unscientific test says so or not. Players barely notice a difference between 5 and 10 attack, avatars are no different. I have merits in accuracy, magic accuracy, and magic attack. Even if you think the accuracy is never needed from skill +, its better to have that insurance than to waste merits on something that has no meaningful use whatsoever.


I'm just glad they said "Screw this, we aren't adding SMN to FF14", so that they indirectly could admit that they haven't done a single thing correct with SMN since 2001. 10 years and still no clue how you'd make a mage function with a staff, spirits and avatars.

They haven't done anything that badly wrong with summoner over its history. They've added many useful functions and unique abilities for the job. The job's only serious flaw has been and continues to be being locked down by recast timers that hinder it more than any other job is hindered by them.

[Ophiuchus]

You have a very...."interesting"....way of spending 5 Group 1 SMN merits.

Please enlighten us why you think making the cost of spirits the same as level 75 Avatars was a good idea and more useful than Carbuncle when he was one of the only 4 Avatars you could get for free at the time.

Oh don't worry I have since redone my merits since then. Also I noticed spirits didn't get interrupted all that often, maybe 30-40%, which may seem like a bit much but they still casted more often then they were interrupted. Mind you I didn't find them useful on higher lvl nms/fights, to a level 75. I just found them to be a nice substitute instead of carby kiting on certain nms.

At the time my gear wasn't the all around best and I was only in a social shell that only did missions if everyone happened to be on the same page. So I felt contempt with just messing around with spirits. Nowadays I feel I've grown much more as a player, I don't carry my old stubborn "Gearing for haste is useless!" mindset anymore. I'm not saying that spirits are a untapped godsend to SMN. I'm simply stating that I had found some miniscule and highly situational uses for them and they are not flat-out "useless."

On the debate I feel the "developmental time" could have been better used to attempt to fix or add something to spirits instead of give us a new JA that only has one use every 5 mins for a little extra damage. Though I do feel the BP recasts issues still have higher priority over spirits adjustments.

[Korpg]

Don't worry, that's not me, and that's where I become at odds with him. There are many fun and effective ways to utilize summoner. The only real problem right now is summoner in gneneral has been really minimized by the current "wait for proc/TH buildup then kill" metagame.

That is, if you are in a party thats doing procs. Usually when I'm doing a NM as SMN with a group, its with my friends in the shell, and I already switched from WAR doing red proc and we are just pet killing. Most of the time, we do our procs as we kill, but some mobs it seems better and safer to pet kill. But if we want a certain proc, I'll come as WAR or BLM and proc it, switch to SMN real quick, and help kill it for drops.

At least, thats the way I do it. People are different, let them do whatever they want.



Outside of abyssea it might be more necessary, but inside, with your inflated stats and DD atmas, you can keep your perp and refresh on and still perform just fine. Granted, you can take it off and probably do more damage, but it does create a sense of urgency in maintaining your MP- It's still not super difficult, because Myrkr gives so much MP back and then ups your DoT, but if you're in trouble, it could make the difference between dying and not.

Dallas has already stated that he doesn't use Minkin at all, and that using Minkin does nothing to both the avatar and player.....yeah....

He states that damage is better for emp staff to have Regain atmas on, including Sea Daughter. Because the Slow+ offsets Haste gear and Hastaga.....yeah....but Regain is better than Refresh for a SMN.....yeah.....

[Alhanelem]

That is, if you are in a party thats doing procs.Which is all of them except the ones that are solo/duoing stuff.


Dallas has already stated that he doesn't use Minkin at all, and that using Minkin does nothing to both the avatar and player.....yeah....It doesn't if you're in a melee SMN setup. If you're not, however, minikin is very important.

If you are doing a melee SMN setup, you are buffing physical blood pacts and you and your avatar's melee DoT. The Empyrean weaponskill returns a huge amount of MP back to you, especially if you swap into more max MP gear for it.

You do not need perp cost in every slot to offset the perp cost. Melee SMN set ups work just fine and you don't need Minikin for the refresh at all when doing it.

Minikin is a great atma for all mages, but it is not helpful when doing a melee strategy.


He states that damage is better for emp staff to have Regain atmas on, including Sea Daughter. I would rather just use traditional DD atmas e.g. stout arm / voracious violet / razed ruins. But his point isn't completely without merit. High regain means better Myrkrs in less time.
Are you aware that a 300% Myrkr gives me back over 1050 MP in abyssea, as a Galka, without an optimized WS kit? Imagine how much Tarutaru SMNs get.

The reason i'd pass on Sea Daughter though is beyond Myrkr's strength in getting MP back, the best thing staff does is damage over time. The best staves have DMG ratings comprable to other 2H weapons but have a lower delay. Retribution is the best physical WS in staff's arsenal, and it's not as good as it should be, even with DD atmas. I hope we get one more set of WS and staff gets a new physical that's worth using.

However, I'm not going to tell you that Melee SMN is the only good SMN and that you're gimp if you don't do it, because that's nonsense. A SMN's strength is in the variety of things it is capable of, from support to "nukes" to spike physical damage. There is no one right way to play the job.

[Malamasala]

They haven't done anything that badly wrong with summoner over its history. They've added many useful functions and unique abilities for the job. The job's only serious flaw has been and continues to be being locked down by recast timers that hinder it more than any other job is hindered by them.

Well, the job is fine, except for:

- Spirits
- Wards
- All rages below level 70
- Lack of melee skills
- Lack of melee weapons
- Lack of armors

Or if you inverse the list, everything that is fine is:

- Rage pacts post level 70.

So yea, the job has no issues at all.

[Dallas]

There is no one right way to play the job.
WAR can sub /BLM all they want, doesn't mean that they won't get spanked by anyone competent. Same is true for SMN. If you are going to do something like stack magical atma for spirits, you will suck. It's not "wrong" technically, but don't do something stupid like brag about it. Bad players are bad players.

[Malamasala]

Stacking MAB for spirits wouldn't be wrong though. It is like a BLM stacking MAB. The problem lies in that it is like a BLM played by a retarded baby.

[Alhanelem]

Well, the job is fine, except for:

- All rages below level 70

So yea, the job has no issues at all.
Fixed that for you. There's plenty of armors, there are melee weapons, Favors and various BP wards grant melee buffs, there's plenty of armors, spirits are fine, wards are fine.


WAR can sub /BLM all they want, doesn't mean that they won't get spanked by anyone competent. Same is true for SMN. If you are going to do something like stack magical atma for spirits, you will suck. It's not "wrong" technically, but don't do something stupid like brag about it. Bad players are bad players.
People who play summoner differently than you is not even close to the same thing as someone choosing a bad subjob. Yes, trying to build for SPIRITS is stupid, i agree 100%, but I was speaking generally, not about this one case, and I'm sorry but playing support SMN can be useful, as can be stacking magic atma for magical blood pacts. It's not ALWAYS useful, but it can be.


Stacking MAB for spirits wouldn't be wrong though.Yes, it would be, becuase if you stack those atmas, your 75+ blood pacts will do more damage, so again, there's no reason to use a spirit. Trying to use spirits for damage is about the least effective thing you can possibly do on summoner.

Edit: Fixed a double negative

[Korpg]

Don't bother Alhanelem.

Anything Dallas says is his viewpoint, and what he thinks is good for SMN is his choice. His viewpoints about how everyone else should play SMN is incorrect though, but thats besides the point.

As for him saying that MAB atmas are worthless for SMN, spirits or otherwise, is incorrect. As Malamasala said, Spirits are just retarded BLMs, but MAB atmas are the atmas of choice for those who use spirits exclusively. Don't know why they would use them exclusively though. Attacking them for using them isn't the solution though.

[Dallas]

Korpg, you are no Alhanelem. He knows me 100x better than you do.


People who play summoner differently than you is not even close to the same thing as someone choosing a bad subjob. Yes, trying to build for SPIRITS is stupid, i agree 100%, but I was speaking generally, not about this one case, and I'm sorry but playing support SMN can be useful, as can be stacking magic atma for magical blood pacts. It's not ALWAYS useful, but it can't be.

Al, you saw the thread. You should know that Korpgs arguments had nothing to do with the merits of his own playstyle. He objects to the existance and acceptance of my playstyle. He apparently plays WAR, which is why I rip on WAR.

[Korpg]

Al, you saw the thread. You should know that Korpgs arguments had nothing to do with the merits of his own playstyle. He objects to the existance and acceptance of my playstyle. He apparently plays WAR, which is why I rip on WAR.

I object your egotistical self-styled attitude, not the existence of your playstyle. Many times I have said you play the way you want to play. Also, I have said that telling others that "your way or highway" attitude is not helpful or realistic for everyone else. You only like him because he has an Emp Staff and I don't. I like him because he knows that there are times where you shouldn't rely on melee SMN, and therefor should have a different set for cases like that. Also that he brings reason and support for his argument, but that is besides the point.

I have shown you the fallacies of your method, you have yet to say why my method is bad. Your only argument is that the "a SMN who doesn't melee is lazy," which is not a good excuse, it is a pathetic one.

So, why not just bring the whole argument to the table instead of picking what you want to see.