Please Rework "FULL BREAK'S" effectiveness + other GA ws's like it DEV TEAM /wave

[kingfury]

Hey Dev Team ^^/wave

Break Weapon Skills: The Problem
From the moment I got access to this weapon skill years ago, to now, I've been greatly disappointed in the effectiveness of Full Break on monsters across Vana'diel. The supposed listed weapon skill effects "Lowers accuracy, weakens attacks and defense, and impairs evasion of target." had me very excited as a young WAR a couple of years back, but I'm sure nearly every WAR+DRK (non Full Break ws's for DRK) out there would agree that this weapon skill has very subtle/weak returns when using it.

GA's Design: The Cause
GA's intended design as based on it's weapon skill list would constitute an enfeebling weapon that can equally cause some of the most powerful melee damage in the game. Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever seen a visible difference in "Lowered" accuracy, -attack/defense, or the evasion after using these ws's, and that just begs the question of, "can it be reworked?" The lower Break ws's inform us that the duration of the effect varies with TP, but increasing the duration of a super weak enfeebling effect doesn't really do much to excite the user. The only thing I can think of in regards to the inefficiency of these ws's is that their potential haven't been revisited since their introduction >< lol. The fixes would be rather easy in my thinking, and would just need feedback from players to adjust the power and balance of these ws's. I would love to be able to use the GA's intended design as an enfeebling weapon that can also break bones at high levels! ^^

Suggestions: The Solutions

- Add new high level Job Traits that drastically enhance the potency of "Break" weapon skills.
- Increase the potency of Break weapon skills based on GA skill
- Multiple uses of the same Break weapon skill (Shield, Armor, Weapon, Full Break) on a target would stack to increase the potency and duration. A maximum amount of uses could be determined.
- Add a new GA weapon skill ("Skull Smash" or something) that drastically enhances the potency of Break weapon skills.

The Dev Team has reworked major systems in this game based on player feedback that called for progressive change before. So again, to reiterate my point, at the base of what I'm proposing, I'm calling for action to rework a system that is causing up to four ws's(and potentially more enfeebling ws's outside of GA) to be considered useless by a LARGE number of players. That is a real problem, and such a problem deserves attention. Thanks for listening :D /salute

Another possibility: Bolstering stats for party members

-What if, after inflicting a set amount/percentage of a particular enfeeble at the point of striking a target with one of the 4 Break weaponskills, they then worked similar to how DNC's Steps function? For anyone that doesn't know about how Steps works:
-Steps are used to enfeeble an enemy, while at the same time generating the Finishing Moves required to perform Flourishes. The enfeebling effects produced by Steps can be stacked up to five times. The more times an effect is stacked, the more powerful it becomes.
Perhaps directly after you use a Break weaponskill, Armor Break for instance, the more you land successful melee hits on the target the more bolstered your melee damage would become. The ws would still cause some damage upon using it, but after inflicting the initial enfeebling effect, it would have a bolstering of stats effect so the concept of the enfeeble can become more apparent over time. It could still of course have a determined duration window of effect, but once it's effect duration has reached it's end and worn off the bolstered damage would also disappear. It could even have the "Defense down" effect animation added to each melee hit to the target similar to how most additional effect enfeebling weapons function. The same goes for the other corresponding ws's.

So then, Shield break once landed on a high evasion monster would see a percentage drop to it's evasion and improve Accuracy to the players over the course of the user successfully landing hits on the target. So this would bolster +Accuracy per successful melee hit to all party members within the area of effect.

-Weapon break once landed would see a percentage drop in Attack and improve -PDT% over the course of the user successfully landing hits on the target. So this would by effect bolster -PDT% per successful melee hit to all party members within the area of effect.

-And full break would be a drop to all 3 attack, evasion, and defense at the point of using the ws, then bolster damage, -PDT, and Accuracy per each successful melee hit to the target to all party members within the area of effect.

So perhaps you could still allow the current base enfeebles already in place with the ws's that are used to calculate set percentages upon 1st impact to remain, then allow the bolstering of stats effect to further make idea noticeable for all party members. This would create a new and "VISIBLE" way for these ws's to function. Plus all the current battle code could remain untouched since the ws's would now in essence be more of a "Bolstering to stats" set of ws's based on the way they would enhance the enfeebling concept.
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Update*

This thread received an answer on page 24 from the Community Reps on 4-27-2011: Post 235 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5971-Please-Rework-FULL-BREAK-S-effectiveness-other-GA-ws-s-like-it-DEV-TEAM-wave?p=84644&viewfull=1#post84644)


After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)
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Update*(2014)
Dreams do come true...you just have to be patient :)
Updated Weapon Skills (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/42588)

[Seriha]

I'd go for scaling based on GA skill with a minimum and capped effectiveness. The damage of the WS themselves could use some love, as if a Break and following TP phase and stronger WS do not result in higher numbers than just using 2 of the stronger WS, it'll be a lost cause for a lot of people despite the potential utility in large group/alliance settings.

[Rambus]

I'd go for scaling based on GA skill with a minimum and capped effectiveness. The damage of the WS themselves could use some love, as if a Break and following TP phase and stronger WS do not result in higher numbers than just using 2 of the stronger WS, it'll be a lost cause for a lot of people despite the potential utility in large group/alliance settings.

I am agreeing with Seriha

[kingfury]

I'd go for scaling based on GA skill with a minimum and capped effectiveness. The damage of the WS themselves could use some love, as if a Break and following TP phase and stronger WS do not result in higher numbers than just using 2 of the stronger WS, it'll be a lost cause for a lot of people despite the potential utility in large group/alliance settings.
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Agreed. I wouldn't mind an increase in damage to these weapon skills, but even if we didn't get that and these became hard core enfeebling ws's their use would then benefit every DD in a group setting thus allowing for more damage over all. If everyone could see a clear drastic change in their damage over a duration of time, I'm sure Full Break would be the new request at the start of Zerg moments and heavy DD moments.

Since TP is so easy to build up these days, one could easily build a quick 100-200 TP to pop a Full Break and follow up with multiple powerful Ws's. The added plus is the damage spike would be felt party wide each time, thus making every DD in the party feel like a temporary superstar.

[kingfury]

agreed, not enough letters, etc
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"letters"? Whatcha mean?

[Rambus]

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"letters"? Whatcha mean?

you need to say 10 letters or something, i dont like the retarded 11234567890 or w/e people do

fixed post

[kingfury]

you need to say 10 letters or something, i dont like the retarded 11234567890 or w/e people do

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><; I'm still lost here! 10 letters in regards to what? /confused

[Mirage]

Shield break was the shit until sturmwind, yo.

[Tamarsamar]

Shield Break was the shit until Raging Rush, yo.

FTFY.

-40 Evasion is powerful stuff, yo.

As a Red Mage, I can only wish that I got an enfeeble of that caliber, much less as early as you guys get Shield Break!

[kingfury]

FTFY.
-40 Evasion is powerful stuff, yo.
As a Red Mage, I can only wish that I got an enfeeble of that caliber, much less as early as you guys get Shield Break!
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Yeah but now we need the next level in that enfeebling power! ^^ Here's what the wiki quotes:

"Lowers attack and defense by 12.5%, evasion by 20 points, and estimated to also lower accuracy by 20 points."

I'd opt for tripling these values at least so Att and DEF would be -37.5%(or just a clean -40%), EVA -60 pts, and Acc -60 pts

[Mirage]

Idk man, that sounds awfully overpowered. Maybe even not that useful, how many players are sitting at a hit rate of 65%? Likewise, for anything outside of abyssea, we have very high attack and evasion rates vs almost any mob, NM or not. Inside abyssea, we've got atmas that take care of all the buffs we need.

Most good DDs are already getting diminished returns from attack now, when they can roll with 8-900 attack just from their own buffs and food, lowering the mob def wouldn't do much in this case. MOst jobs should be sitting at capped or near capped hit rate as well, so that won't do much either. ninjas have high evasion and idk what, 5 shadows from utsu ni now with the new gear? If that wasn't enough, they can increase their agi and evasion even more with the right atmas. So, mob accuracy doesn't matter much either.

Before anyone brings up "but abyssea isn't everything!" We're 15 levels higher now, that's a *ton* of level correction going on. For starters, +60 evasion, +60 accuracy, and that's from the increased levels alone, not counting higher combat skills.

[Rambus]

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><; I'm still lost here! 10 letters in regards to what? /confused

try posting with like "ok" or something.

you never run into it cuz you do:
"-------------------------------"


Most good DDs are already getting diminished returns from attack now

explain this, i think you are suing that term wrong

[Zyeriis]

I don't disagree with the general idea of newer enfeebling weapon skills but I don't think WAR really needs them on Great Axe, considering it can use almost every weapon.

We do need more enfeebling weapon skills though that actually deal damage on their own. Good examples of current weapon skills that fit this bill: Tachi: Yukikaze (Blind), Tachi: Gekko (Silence), Guillotine (Silence), Tachi: Kasha (Paralyze, Blade: Retsu (Paralyze). Enfeebling weaponskills is one of the things SAM still has going for it, then we got that PoS Tachi: Ageha. Sure, it lowers attack but it's so weak in it's own damage that it's never worth it (not forgetting how it doesn't really fit well into skillchaining).

A job/weapon that would be nice to get enfeebling weapon skills on would be swords, clubs, polearms, or great swords for PLD.

Great Swords did get Herculean Slash but, it's just not practical enough (causes paralyze), neither is Shockwave (AoE Sleepga) to be usuable in most situations.

Normal swords get just one enfeebling weapon skill...Flat Blade, which stuns enemies for less than a second most times (if it even hits). Swords are severely lacking in the enfeebling department.

Probably wondering why I brought Polearm up when I was talking about PLD weapons. Paladin can wield Polearms, even if they have an E rating with them. Though, I do not mean PLD specifically when talking about Polearm's lack of enfeebling weapon skills. It's actually in the exact same boat as swords. It has one enfeebling weapon skill, Leg Sweep, which...as you probably already know/guessed, stuns things for about a second.

Next, clubs. Another unused PLD weapon, even considering that Paladin has the highest rating for it in the game with an A-. Club's best weaponskill? Hexa Strike. Guess who can't use it? Paladin. Enfeebling weapon skills for club? There's 2 this time. One that, again, stuns for about a second: Brainshaker and one that lowers an enemy's INT: Skullbreaker. Are either of these useful? No, not even close.

Finally, staves. Guess what job has the highest rating with this weapon? Paladin, A-. Enfeebling weapon skills? Shell Crusher (Lowers enemy's defense) and that's it.

All in all, there's plenty of weapon types that are completely lacking in this department. I didn't include mythic/relic/emp/campaign weapon skills into the argument for obvious reasons. Anyway, WAR/Great Axe are hardly the weapons that need such weapon skills at the moment when so many other weapons are lacking such skills and have generally weaker weapon skills to begin with.

[noodles355]

Sweet jesus, do you have any concept of moderation kingfury?

I know you love warrior but seriously, just stop. Warrior is already powerful enough without you wanting them access to every single weaponskill from every single job, and without you wanting a retardedly overpowered full break.

You need to be less narrowminded and concider other jobs outside Warrior. Did you even stop to think what would happen if Full Break gave a 37.5% Def down affect apart from Warrior and Dark Knight getting a boost? Hell, do you even realise just how much 37.5% def down is?

You don't know so I'll spell them out for you. 37.5% defence down is the equivilent of giving every melee attacking the mob +60% Attack. (100/62.5=1.6)

Don't you think it would be slightly overpowered to give warrior, which is already a very strong job, a WS that effectively gives the party/alliance an attack buff over twice as strong as berserk?

You also undoubtably do not realise that such a buff would also lose dragoon it's spot in a zerg party as angon would become useless (Angon is 20%).

[Mirage]

Great Swords did get Herculean Slash but, it's just not practical enough (causes paralyze), neither is Shockwave (AoE Sleepga) to be usuable in most situations.

Normal swords get just one enfeebling weapon skill...Flat Blade, which stuns enemies for less than a second most times (if it even hits). Swords are severely lacking in the enfeebling department.

Probably wondering why I brought Polearm up when I was talking about PLD weapons. Paladin can wield Polearms, even if they have an E rating with them. Though, I do not mean PLD specifically when talking about Polearm's lack of enfeebling weapon skills. It's actually in the exact same boat as swords. It has one enfeebling weapon skill, Leg Sweep, which...as you probably already know/guessed, stuns things for about a second.

The duration of a stun from a stun WS was never important. It could last for a split millisecond and still be practiclly just as useful as if it lasted 5 seconds. All they need to do is interrupt dangerous abilities and spells. They are however not a reliable way to interrupt such things anyway, because who wants to be sitting on 300tp forever, just in case that gob decides to throw that bomb? It leads to a severe decrease in dps, but if you absolutely have to stun something in order to not die, these WSes give you a fair chance at doing it.

I still remember when a 80% HP suicide bomb toss one-shot me from full HP when I was a lv65 warrior in wotg gustaberg :(.

Anyway, shockwave's aoe sleep should probably be a bit stronger. On paper, it sounds like the perfect tool to deal with adds when you are soloing, An AoE that sleeps? Hell yeah, i though, just to be pretty disappointed when I at best would be able to sleep one of my links for about 10 seconds.

Silencing WSes are also pretty useful, considering black mage mobs even 20 levels below you can be dangerous to a melee if they manage to pull that nuke off. I've considered leveling archery just in order to land silence arrows, but it would be much better if they would just implement silence bolts seeing as i already have marksmanship leveled :p.




You don't know so I'll spell them out for you. 37.5% defence down is the equivilent of giving every melee attacking the mob +60% Attack. (100/62.5=1.6)
Good point. It shows even better how overpowered it would be. Imagine giving every melee in your entire alliance Berserk every time you used a WS.

[Greatguardian]

explain this, i think you are suing that term wrong

Gaining +100 Attack when you have 50 Attack is a 200% increase. Gaining +100 Attack when you have 500 attack is a 20% increase. Ratio of Attack/MobDef caps at 2.0/2.2 for 1/2 handers. Attack has diminishing returns and caps. Good DDs roll with 700+ Attack without buffs already. They are perfectly correct.

As for Great Axe, why are we trying to buff the single most powerful DD in the entire game?

[kingfury]

Sweet jesus, do you have any concept of moderation kingfury?
I know you love warrior but seriously, just stop. Warrior is already powerful enough without you wanting them access to every single weaponskill from every single job, and without you wanting a retardedly overpowered full break.
You need to be less narrowminded and concider other jobs outside Warrior. Did you even stop to think what would happen if Full Break gave a 37.5% Def down affect apart from Warrior and Dark Knight getting a boost? Hell, do you even realise just how much 37.5% def down is?
You don't know so I'll spell them out for you. 37.5% defence down is the equivilent of giving every melee attacking the mob +60% Attack. (100/62.5=1.6)
Don't you think it would be slightly overpowered to give warrior, which is already a very strong job, a WS that effectively gives the party/alliance an attack buff over twice as strong as berserk?
You also undoubtably do not realise that such a buff would also lose dragoon it's spot in a zerg party as angon would become useless (Angon is 20%).
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Ahh there you are Noodles ^^ we meet again lol

Well as a disclaimer, I'm not really up for a poop throwing fight with ya again, so lets keep it civil this time okie-dokie. Similar to that whole "Weapon Mastery" post, I'm again just wanting to progress something that's already there inside the game. Mages don't complain when they get more powerful spells. Pet users don't complain when they get more powerful pets. DD's don't complain when they get more powerful weapon skills. I don't know why you think it's so crazy of me to ask for more improvements to things that have been in the game for years. It's just natural progression. As we get more and more powerful, shouldn't our abilities follow suite? I think so. The monsters we will fight as we get more powerful will surely balance out any new abilities we are soon to acquire, so I don't see how this would be so far overboard.

I think the problem you have is once you see something you consider "over powered", you pounce into a rabid monkey stance and try to explain how it would upset the current game balance and so on. Why not instead take a constructive stance and figure out how to further balance the game around such a request, which would then provide possible improvement request for others like DRG and more. I'm only suggesting a change for GA's weapon skills, that doesn't mean you can't see this request and request change for DRG's Angon or other ws's out there that could use some boosting as well since you like to think on all dimensions of every job. I'm not being Narrow minded, I'm just focusing on things I would like to see improved. Balancing the game is the Dev Teams job, so they would see this and then say something like, "Ok, if GA gets this, how can we improve other enfeebling ws's to match this?" See?

Now in hindsight of my suggested -37.5% to Att & DEF, and -60 to Acc & EVA, I did say in the OP that such an adjustment would simply need balance testing and feedback from the players to make sure it would fit nicely within the game. They are making the Test Server thing soon for new content. I'm just not tied down by what others consider "Over Powered".

The game has so many more powerful things coming our way, and yet tons of people are so set in their thinking that acquiring more power would break the game /stagger. I really suggest that folks that fear such change & newfound power should just tap outta the game now and save themselves the stress of crying about all the powerful new weapon skills, spells, gear, weapons, job abilities, and more that are in the works.

The bottom line is, don't be closed minded to new ideas that raise the bar for what we as players can do. SE decided to raise the lvl cap to 99, yet folks are whining left and right every step of the way when they should be rejoicing in all the newfound possibilities. If you don't like a concept, suggest another that would balance it instead of flaming it. If my suggestion sounds too high, simply suggest what you think would be better balanced. It's much more progressive is all.

**As a note: If you're wondering why I'm using Bold so much, it's because I've had experience with trying to explain stuff to Noodles and have failed on multiple attempts! lol J/K Noodles :D (aka: This is a joke... as in, I'm just poking fun at you Noodles!) see even more bold >.> /sigh

[kingfury]

Idk man, that sounds awfully overpowered. Maybe even not that useful, how many players are sitting at a hit rate of 65%? Likewise, for anything outside of abyssea, we have very high attack and evasion rates vs almost any mob, NM or not. Inside abyssea, we've got atmas that take care of all the buffs we need.
Most good DDs are already getting diminished returns from attack now, when they can roll with 8-900 attack just from their own buffs and food, lowering the mob def wouldn't do much in this case. MOst jobs should be sitting at capped or near capped hit rate as well, so that won't do much either. ninjas have high evasion and idk what, 5 shadows from utsu ni now with the new gear? If that wasn't enough, they can increase their agi and evasion even more with the right atmas. So, mob accuracy doesn't matter much either.
Before anyone brings up "but abyssea isn't everything!" We're 15 levels higher now, that's a *ton* of level correction going on. For starters, +60 evasion, +60 accuracy, and that's from the increased levels alone, not counting higher combat skills.
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I think I just want "Visible" enfeebles that are clear to both the user of the enfeeble and others teamed with them. As it stands, unless you're using some kind of 3rd party software that displays just how much Full Break actually enfeebles a target, you would be hard press to notice any difference in the targeted stats that are suppose to be reduced.

I would simply like to see a target hitting for 200 dmg be cut down to 126 for 30secs once the ws is used. The same for their DEF, if I'm hitting for 200 dmg I would like to see a clear increase like 276 dmg. That's all ^^ I don't really care how they work the numbers and values, I just want to NOTICE the downed effects.

[TybudX]

As it stands, unless you're using some kind of 3rd party software that displays just how much Full Break actually enfeebles a target, you would be hard press to notice any difference in the targeted stats that are suppose to be reduced.

So you advocate eye-balling, and to facilitate that you want Great Axe break skills to be so unbalanced that nobody would ever pick 17 of the other jobs for anything, ever again. Got it.

[kingfury]

Gaining +100 Attack when you have 50 Attack is a 200% increase. Gaining +100 Attack when you have 500 attack is a 20% increase. Ratio of Attack/MobDef caps at 2.0/2.2 for 1/2 handers. Attack has diminishing returns and caps. Good DDs roll with 700+ Attack without buffs already. They are perfectly correct.
As for Great Axe, why are we trying to buff the single most powerful DD in the entire game?
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What does this line mean!!!???? ><; lol

Should WAR not get ANYTHING else all the way to 99?! /stagger This is a request to dust off some age old ws's for the GA that improves the effectiveness of it's enfeebling qualities. That all ^^;

[kingfury]

So you advocate eye-balling, and to facilitate that you want Great Axe break skills to be so unbalanced that nobody would ever pick 17 of the other jobs for anything, ever again. Got it.
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Nah ^^ I just suggested those values off the top of my head, I don't wish for unbalance, just Visible stat reductions. I don't believe adding 10 to the current estimated stat reductions would really solve the issue, so I suggested tripling the current values. Plus did you read my post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5971-Please-Rework-FULL-BREAK-S-effectiveness-other-GA-ws-s-like-it-DEV-TEAM-wave?p=81371&viewfull=1#post81371) up there? The whole "constructive stance" thing?

[Rambus]

Gaining +100 Attack when you have 50 Attack is a 200% increase. Gaining +100 Attack when you have 500 attack is a 20% increase. Ratio of Attack/MobDef caps at 2.0/2.2 for 1/2 handers. Attack has diminishing returns and caps. Good DDs roll with 700+ Attack without buffs already. They are perfectly correct.

As for Great Axe, why are we trying to buff the single most powerful DD in the entire game?
that is not what diminishing returns means.
if you are using game slang then fine, but that is not the technical meaning.

The only real exmaples that i know of in game that exist is INT on level 1 spells with great Dint and the last 1% in haste/shell effects. The only reason it happens with shell/haste effects though is from the hidden decmal you do not see. like 25>26% gear haste is really like .8 haste or w/e, same with MDT because of shell V being .XX like max merit 27.34%

[kingfury]

Anyway, shockwave's aoe sleep should probably be a bit stronger. On paper, it sounds like the perfect tool to deal with adds when you are soloing, An AoE that sleeps? Hell yeah, i though, just to be pretty disappointed when I at best would be able to sleep one of my links for about 10 seconds.
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/Agreed!! I tried to my wits end to make Shockwave work as it's ws description states, but to no avail. /sulk Please adjust this ws too Devs ^^/


Good point. It shows even better how overpowered it would be. Imagine giving every melee in your entire alliance Berserk every time you used a WS.
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Well, not really ^^ Berserk last for 3 mins, Full break would last only a few seconds per each use. So long as the ws damage doesn't beat out other powerful ws's, it would balance out as a tool to help enfeeble the mob for others to increase their damage. I don't know where that (100/62.5=1.6) equation is from, but 37% of anything in this game doesn't break much of anything... well maybe movement speed... but battle stat wise test out +37% Cure Potency, Attack, -MDT, -PDT, etc. and you'll see what I'm saying. It's a nice boost, but not game breaking. 50%+ to stats is where u can see absolute night and day differences in my experience. For example, I have -54 Enmity on my WHM taru, and can spam Cure 6 back to back and not get hate unless the DD's just stopped hitting all together for a good bit, but as soon as I try to reduce that Enmity number (like below -40) I notice the difference right away. A lot of these player generated equations are a bit too far out there most times in my opinion lol.
DEF down dmg: 50 dmg + 37.5% = 87
That's not very game breaking especially for only a few seconds. I'm sure I'll get flooded with all the fDEF %/+*&= equations from this point ^^ but I know damage percents in game based on trying them out, not equations. Not that I'm closed minded to them, just that some of them are pretty weak when it comes to all the added JA's, Gear, Buffs and more added to them.

[TybudX]

Plus did you read my post up there?

I've read a quite a few of your posts, some of them several times. I understand that you are well meaning, but you don't appear to have anything past a glancing knowledge of the terms we use to describe how the game functions. Perhaps if you invested your time into learning the game mechanics you could avoid posting senseless 'improvements' like the ones suggested in this thread.

Also, if you really want the effects of Great Axe break skills to be more visible, a simple solution would be for SE to have some sort of timer on screen, and maybe have it disappear when the effect wears off. If only such a change were possible.

[Tamarsamar]

Y'know, I used to have respect for kingfury. That quickly diminished when he made his sig, and after this thread all I can see him as is arrogant.

I mean, seriously? "Don't complain that what I'm adding is overpowered, but instead come up with your own suggestions to work around my own." Seriously?

By the way, for the record, Dia III is -15% Defense. Armor Break is already -25%.

[kingfury]

Y'know, I used to have respect for kingfury. That quickly diminished when he made his sig, and after this thread all I can see him as is arrogant.
I mean, seriously? "Don't complain that what I'm adding is overpowered, but instead come up with your own suggestions to work around my own." Seriously?
By the way, for the record, Dia III is -15% Defense. Armor Break is already -25%.
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Bah, I've already dealt with this sort of misunderstanding regarding my Sig choice in another thread. Can't help how you feel about things like that.

If anything, my signature is advertising something that I personally created, invested loads of thought into, took weeks to finish and is something I'm proud of. If you don't have something to put in your signature that means something substantial to you, that's your business. Plus if you're not an artist or graphic designer capable of creating your own work to plug into your signature, I'm sure you'll find something else that is of some value to you. Sorry, but my current signature isn't "Bosting, Bragging, or Belittling others" in the slightest. It has substantial meaning to me, and that's why I chose to put it there. If you feel that way, you should /check yourself 1st.

Arrogance is a very closed minded and self centered attitude. This is a suggestion Forum Tamarsamar. I'm posting a suggestion in a "General Discussion" Thread and I'm posting it in a open minded way. YES, I'm "seriously" simply asking that instead of trying to flame the crap out of something I've SUGGESTED, that you instead DISCUSS other alternatives or solutions based on what I've posted. Is that really Arrogant?

Armor Break is already -25%

How did you fish up this percentage? I'm curious to know. I spammed Full Break the other night and through the years and couldn't see any noticeable percent in DEF reduction.

[TybudX]

You may have designed that sig for other reasons, but to the rest of us it wreaks of arrogance. It doesn't matter how you defend it or how you define it, it doesn't come off the way you intended at all.

[kingfury]

And that TybudX is something I can't control in the slightest. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but that doesn't govern how I choose to display my artwork. When folks choose to assume the reasons of the actions of others instead of just asking them why they did what they did, it almost always opens the door to misunderstanding.

"To the rest of us" is a huge assumption that just because you feel that way that everyone does.

[Mrbeansman]

And that TybudX is something I can't control in the slightest. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but that doesn't govern how I choose to display my artwork. When folks choose to assume the reasons of the actions of others instead of just asking them why they did what they did, it almost always opens the door to misunderstanding.

"To the rest of us" is a huge assumption that just because you feel that way that everyone does.

GET OVER YOURSELF.

You are becoming fat headed and arrogant because your "Brilliant Idea" got a tiny bit of recognition for the community team.

[kingfury]

GET OVER YOURSELF.
You are becoming fat headed and arrogant because your "Brilliant Idea" got a tiny bit of recognition for the community team.
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/stagger >< No that's all in your head I'm afraid. If there's nothing I've done to justify this type of comment, such as run amuck bragging and posting all over the forums that my suggestion got "positively replied to", then there's no grounds for change on my part.

I've been an artist my entire life, so I'm use to critics and misguided emotions towards something I've created. For instance, you just called my suggestion "Brilliant" all by yourself, not me. You've created the rest on your own as well.

I'm grounded just fine, so no worries about a big head here.

[Rambus]

first off his sig is not the subject of this thread. It is wrong to advertise? I made my sig from all the hateful posts on relic weapons so i made it to reflect that, has nothing to do with showing off or arrogance. he is just tossing ideas in getting people to want to use these brake type ws more.

i use full brake when i am trying to find blue, i mean why not? in abyssea proc > epeen

[TybudX]

First impressions matter, and your explanation does little to sway people's opinions when confronted with a giant advertisement of your douche-baggery. Just sayin. :p

Anyways, Armor Break gives up to -25% defense to a mob if un-resisted. This does not mean that you will always see a 25% increase in the damage you see on screen. It's very likely that your attack is already high enough that no amount of defense down is going to matter, your cRatio is capped. You might only see the benefit of a few percent of the WS's effect, while the completely un-buffed THF sitting in the jank party just saw his numbers go up by 33% across the board, due to his pDIF being raised out of the 1.0 territory.

This is why people use log parsers to determine the effect of things. You want to be able to eye-ball the difference when you use your abilities, but don't understand why you can't see the difference by way of an apparent jump in damage. Since you don't see that increase, you assume that the abilities as is need to be boosted somehow, when in fact in boost will not see you any gain over the current values.

That's not to mention that in the situations where an increase in these values would help all that you are really doing in narrowing which strategies are viable (see Einherjar or level 80 AV kills). By buffing the effect one job can make you remove the need for another job in a party slot completely. This is especially dangerous when the job being buffed is arguably the best offensive job in the game.


You are becoming fat headed and arrogant because your "Brilliant Idea" got a tiny bit of recognition for the community team.

Him making that thread in the first place is consistent with his more current postings. Had he not made that post I'm sure he'd have some other idea of his mentioned in his sig, and I tend to believe him when he says it was not made out of arrogance.

[Tamarsamar]

To kingfury:

Or perhaps there is a problem that you are failing to perceive with yourself? Or has the possibility completely eluded your mind, as well? I should probably note here that Mrbeansman was using "Brilliant" facetiously to mock your larger-than-galka self-image. You're a pretty good artist, sure, but that does not suddenly make every little thing you think up solid gold (and before you say anything, I can think of five better artists off the top of my head, anyway)! And don't think that nobody's seeing through your attempts at false humility, too; I've seen elvaan less arrogant than you!

As for where I came up with the -25% on Armor Break, it was from the exact same place you got the -12.5% on Full Break; it is, in fact, common knowledge that Full Break is half the potency of all the other "Break" weaponskills combined. There's a reason for this, too; it's called "game balance."

[kingfury]

Thanks Rambus /salute You're absolutely correct, and I was just /sulking over the same exact thought lol

Though this type of thing really has no rhyme or reason when it occurs unfortunately. I'm equipped to handle misunderstandings through years of practice though, so I'll just nip it in the bud whenever it arises.^^

[Rambus]

anyways some ideas I can come up with:

stop with the partal resist or resist effects, i mean you are using tp, but that brings in the question should flat blade stun thunder immune/ stun immune mobs? I mean you are using a weak weapon type/ weak ws/ to use 100 tp for a critial difference. same with brake effects though I am not sur what mobs are immune to them

same with full brake or any of the brake ws, skill should be a factor in the increasing levels for it's effect. I disagree with them going out of use.

even when c-ratio is caped would it be REALLY harmful to add 5-10% damage + effect to everyone? so you can warrent using tp on such effect over raw damage ws?

[kingfury]

First impressions matter, and your explanation does little to sway people's opinions when confronted with a giant advertisement of your douche-baggery. Just sayin. :p
-------------
Uh-Oh, name callin' lol /stagger. MATURITY ALERT! Experience lets me know when to drop a topic with certain folks. Jeeze.
I commend you for your detailed explanation on the topic at hand at least. Not so much for the low ball poop throwing.

I understand what you're saying, but that's why I'm asking for a "Rework" of the ws and it's calculations. Perhaps it can be more visible on all fronts so that everyone can "eye ball" the effects. Like I said before, I'm not close minded to the equations of this game, I just would like an update to certain systems that seem fruitless as we go forward towards 99. It doesn't sound progressive that just because we go higher in level, that such ws's are of no use to the ones using it simply because the calculations prevent them from being so.

Thanks for your feedback /

[Rambus]

-------------
Uh-Oh, name callin' lol /stagger. MATURITY ALERT! Experience lets me know when to drop a topic with certain folks. Jeeze.
I commend you for your detailed explanation on the topic at hand at least. Not so much for the low ball poop throwing.

I understand what you're saying, but that's why I'm asking for a "Rework" of the ws and it's calculations. Perhaps it can be more visible on all fronts so that everyone can "eye ball" the effects. Like I said before, I'm not close minded to the equations of this game, I just would like an update to certain systems that seem fruitless as we go forward towards 99.

Thanks for your feedback /



Him making that thread in the first place is consistent with his more current postings. Had he not made that post I'm sure he'd have some other idea of his mentioned in his sig, and I tend to believe him when he says it was not made out of arrogance.[/QUOTE]

personal advice, don't tell people what do or that you don't like what they say. report it and don't state so plublicy.

(only posting this cuz there is no darn PM system @^&*!)

[kingfury]

To kingfury:
Or perhaps there is a problem that you are failing to perceive with yourself? Or has the possibility completely eluded your mind, as well? I should probably note here that Mrbeansman was using "Brilliant" facetiously to mock your larger-than-galka self-image. You're a pretty good artist, sure, but that does not suddenly make every little thing you think up solid gold (and before you say anything, I can think of five better artists off the top of my head, anyway)! And don't think that nobody's seeing through your attempts at false humility, too; I've seen elvaan less arrogant than you!
As for where I came up with the -25% on Armor Break, it was from the exact same place you got the -12.5% on Full Break; it is, in fact, common knowledge that Full Break is half the potency of all the other "Break" weaponskills combined. There's a reason for this, too; it's called "game balance."
----------------------
/sigh I can almost hear the tone of your voice when reading this. There's really no way to respond to the the top half of this post I'm afraid since only 1% of it is based on something tangible. Thank you very much for the compliment on my art Tam /kneel.
I in fact can name a dozen artist that blow me out of the water as well ^^ but you have to see that you just created an argument in your head based on some "evil version of me" all by yourself here. So... lets just respectfully END this fruitless debate, deal. I'm sure the Arrogant, Self-centered, and Big-headed Evil version Kingfury would love to try to go back and forth with you... but lets save that for when he actually appears ^^/

Well if you mean the wiki, then that's user created stuff that sometimes is on point. I quoted it for the purposes of ballparking only, but I feel what you're saying. Once again, I'm all for "GAME BALANCE", but the game is on a rail way of change every day that passes, and our current game balance is going to change with each update. I'm suggesting change based on becoming more powerful. That's all.

[kingfury]

personal advice, don't tell people what do or that you don't like what they say. report it and don't state so plublicy.
(only posting this cuz there is no darn PM system @^&*!)
---------------------
Oh nah Rambus, I was laughing while typing that ^^ It's meant in a joking tone only. I wish there was some way to just vocally record yourself and post it so you could include "Tone" and "Humor" on threads ><; Emotes, Bold, and Italics just don't cut it sometimes! lol It takes a lot to get under my skin, and name calling isn't even on that list.

[Mrbeansman]

-------------
/stagger >< No that's all in your head I'm afraid. If there's nothing I've done to justify this type of comment, such as run amuck bragging and posting all over the forums that my suggestion got "positively replied to", then there's no grounds for change on my part.

I've been an artist my entire life, so I'm use to critics and misguided emotions towards something I've created. For instance, you just called my suggestion "Brilliant" all by yourself, not me. You've created the rest on your own as well.

I'm grounded just fine, so no worries about a big head here.

Prehaps I'm being too harsh but I know one thing for sure: you've spawned a ton of stupidity on theses forums of people who spend an hour thinking up ideas thinking their the best thing since bacon.

[kingfury]

Prehaps I'm being too harsh but I know one thing for sure: you've spawned a ton of stupidity on theses forums of people who spend an hour thinking up ideas thinking their the best thing since bacon.
-----------------
Really? How so? All my suggestions are based on things I've dealt with in-game personally over the years of playing FFXI, so how does that spawn stupidity?

Has someone giving me credit somewhere or something?

[Tamarsamar]

If I may echo the point of everybody else in this thread, Great Axes quite simply don't need any more power, at least, not for the time being. I can understand a buff route vs. nerf route in terms of game balance, but the way you handle the buff route is you start from the least powerful, and then work them up. As it stands right now, Great Axes (and by extension Warriors in general) are far from the least powerful, and should therefore be taking a moment to sit back on their laurels while they're there, not asking for even more.

To be frank, S-E has been taking the buff route for the past five years now, anyway, and only now are we maybe seeing a nerf that many players are already crying foul over (the Critical Hit thing)!

[Zyeriis]

>_>; Guess I was ignored for this pointless argument about humility.

Still, WAR really doesn't need a buff weaponskill wise, it especially does not need more powerful enfeebling weapon skills when so many other weapons and their skills are completely lacking in that department. You should learn to compromise with adding enfeebling weapon skills to other weapons besides Great Axe, kingfury because, as I've already stated, Warrior can already use practically every weapon in the game. Why would it's practically exclusive weapon (aside from DRK being able to use it) get enfeebling weapon skills or buffs to it's already potent enfeebling weapon skills?

You can argue that you're open minded but you're entire OP idea's basis is about WAR and Great Axe weaponskills getting a boost.

[kingfury]

If I may echo the point of everybody else in this thread, Great Axes quite simply don't need any more power, at least, not for the time being. I can understand a buff route vs. nerf route in terms of game balance, but the way you handle the buff route is you start from the least powerful, and then work them up. As it stands right now, Great Axes (and by extension Warriors in general) are far from the least powerful, and should therefore be taking a moment to sit back on their laurels while they're there, not asking for even more.
To be frank, S-E has been taking the buff route for the past five years now, anyway, and only now are we maybe seeing a nerf that many players are already crying foul over (the Critical Hit thing)!
--------------------
There, I can commend you for voicing your opinion based on the topic at hand! Thank you. /clap

I can't say that I agree with you of course ^^ but Thanks for taking the time to voice feedback. / Again, what if this suggestion leads to improvements on all Weapon skills? Wouldn't that be something that everyone could /cheer about? Try not to let current job comparisons cloud the possible improvements for all. I say fix all enfeebling ws ^^/

[TybudX]

I wasn't calling you a douche bag, it's just the impression I get every time I see your sig.

As for making the effects more visible, it's just not feasible, at least not in the way you want it to be. The effects are already potent enough that anybody who can benefit fully from them will see a marked improvement. Adding 20% to your hit rate or 20% to evasion is huge, same with defense down and attack down. If you are paying attention to it you can see it just as clear as a log parser, it would just require that your attention be on aspects of the game that aren't necessarily important at a time like that. It's usually better to parse the effect and adjust your strategy after the fact. It's also usually better to use a solid strategy with proper buffs than it is to use a break WS, at least with the current state of end game.

[kingfury]

>_>; Guess I was ignored for this pointless argument about humility.
Still, WAR really doesn't need a buff weaponskill wise, it especially does not need more powerful enfeebling weapon skills when so many other weapons and their skills are completely lacking in that department. You should learn to compromise with adding enfeebling weapon skills to other weapons besides Great Axe, kingfury because, as I've already stated, Warrior can already use practically every weapon in the game. Why would it's practically exclusive weapon (aside from DRK being able to use it) get enfeebling weapon skills or buffs to it's already potent enfeebling weapon skills?
You can argue that you're open minded but you're entire OP idea's basis is about WAR and Great Axe weaponskills getting a boost.
------------------------
No, no, no! You assume I'm asking for improvements to something that isn't already there Zyeriis! /Check the GA ws list again, these ws's define what a GA already is: An enfeebling + DD'ing weapon. My entire OP idea is improving the enfeebling portion of GA's ws functionality as we move forward to higher levels.

[Mrbeansman]

-----------------
Really? How so? All my suggestions are based on things I've dealt with in-game personally over the years of playing FFXI, so how does that spawn stupidity?

Has someone giving me credit somewhere or something?

Your semi decent idea got reconitition from the community team. Now idiots are coming out of the woodwork and spewing absolute shit in attempt to gain that same success. And in all of this you continue to get fat headed and arrogant from this success.

Also Artist and Arrogance go hand and hand.

[Tamarsamar]

The thing is, though, that this suggestion specifically does not lead to improvements for all weapon skills, for the domain of this suggestion is completely limited to the "Break" line of Great Axe weapon skills. So your flimsy "what if?" defense doesn't exactly hold water. "What if" I tried to solve world hunger, but ended up curing cancer instead? That'd be pretty awesome, if rather unexpected, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try selling food plans to medicine companies "just in case" it happens.

[Zyeriis]

------------------------
No, no, no! You assume I'm asking for improvements to something that isn't already there Zyeriis! /Check the GA ws list again, these ws's define what a GA already is: An enfeebling + DD'ing weapon. My entire OP idea is improving the enfeebling portion of GA's ws functionality as we move forward to higher levels.

...what.....?


>_>; Guess I was ignored for this pointless argument about humility.

Still, WAR really doesn't need a buff weaponskill wise, it especially does not need more powerful enfeebling weapon skills when so many other weapons and their skills are completely lacking in that department. You should learn to compromise with adding enfeebling weapon skills to other weapons besides Great Axe, kingfury because, as I've already stated, Warrior can already use practically every weapon in the game. Why would it's practically exclusive weapon (aside from DRK being able to use it) get enfeebling weapon skills or buffs to it's already potent enfeebling weapon skills?

You can argue that you're open minded but you're entire OP idea's basis is about WAR and Great Axe weaponskills getting a boost.

Assumption? Where?

[kingfury]

I wasn't calling you a douche bag, it's just the impression I get every time I see your sig.
As for making the effects more visible, it's just not feasible, at least not in the way you want it to be. The effects are already potent enough that anybody who can benefit fully from them will see a marked improvement. Adding 20% to your hit rate or 20% to evasion is huge, same with defense down and attack down. If you are paying attention to it you can see it just as clear as a log parser, it would just require that your attention be on aspects of the game that aren't necessarily important at a time like that. It's usually better to parse the effect and adjust your strategy after the fact. It's also usually better to use a solid strategy with proper buffs than it is to use a break WS, at least with the current state of end game.
---------------------------
My point is, I don't see why you would get that impression Tybud. If I had created the art prior to creating the Gyms of Vana'diel post, the art would have still been there. It was created here on this very Forum, and therefore has the most meaning here to me and anyone who might see it. Posting Artwork doesn't instantly equate to "Self-Arrogance" or "Boasting", but rather is a way to show that you're proud of your work and would like to share it with others. If I create another concept elsewhere that has relevance there and is paired with artwork, I would do the same there. But in any case, we can drop that whole subject now I think. END

Well I agree for certain things 20% can be seen very noticeably like movement speed such (cause that's like night and day), but it doesn't run true for everything. -20% for -PDT is poop, and you can see that it is very clearly since you still take heavy damage. On the other hand, +20% Critical hit rate for some reason is very noticeable, since Critical hits are vastly more powerful than stander melee hits. The problem here is how things are wired behind the scenes, and that unless you have those nifty 3rd party programs, you're stuck like chuck wondering "WTH!"

If the Break WS's listed on GA's were more potent, they would absolutely be apart of my game strategy for ever more! Everything from tanking, to DD'ing, to NM hunting, and more. I'm glad you added that last line, "at least with the current state of end game" because that's exactly my point I'm trying to make with this suggestion; I've tested my ws's over the years relentlessly through actual trial and error, but some things are set in-game to just be weak. Unless there is post that flag these types of systems, nothing will ever be done about their possible improvements.

[kingfury]

Your semi decent idea got reconitition from the community team. Now idiots are coming out of the woodwork and spewing absolute shit in attempt to gain that same success. And in all of this you continue to get fat headed and arrogant from this success.
Also Artist and Arrogance go hand and hand.
------------------
Well, that's just silly talk to pin that on me. I wasn't told that my suggestion was being worked after all, I just got positive feedback for it.

There's a lot of things I would like to be fix/improved in this game, so I'm not short on suggestions if that's what you equate to "continue to get fat headed and arrogant". Can't help you in this department either I'm afraid.

Don't know where you got that understanding from about the artist & arrogance thing, but personality traits are choices for each person. I choose to not be Arrogant with my art. Everything else from onlookers is assumed and fabricated.

[kingfury]

The thing is, though, that this suggestion specifically does not lead to improvements for all weapon skills, for the domain of this suggestion is completely limited to the "Break" line of Great Axe weapon skills. So your flimsy "what if?" defense doesn't exactly hold water. "What if" I tried to solve world hunger, but ended up curing cancer instead? That'd be pretty awesome, if rather unexpected, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try selling food plans to medicine companies "just in case" it happens.
---------------
Ughh, c'mon man, stay with me here ><;

When I say "What if this suggestion leads to improvements for all enfeebling ws's", I mean the possible Adjustments to GA's Break ws's could lead to a reworking of all enfeebling ws's on every other weapon in-game.

To adjust your analogy a bit:

What if you changed how Watermelons are grown? If you changed how fast they grow and how large they end up. You could possibly mirror that change to every other vegetable or earth grown food. Thus improve the issue of world hunger on a large scale.

[kingfury]

...what.....?
Assumption? Where?
------------
Uhhh... this line /point >>

Why would it's practically exclusive weapon (aside from DRK being able to use it) get enfeebling weapon skills or buffs to it's already potent enfeebling weapon skills?

You said, "Why would GA "Get" enfeebling weapon skills... so that kinda threw me off. I saw the latter part of the line, but the 1st part flagged as you assumed I was asking for something that wasn't already there. My main issue is that they really are not that "potent" as they are now. The post calls for a reworking of the way the ws's effects are calculated. And the recent post above this one is saying that if this suggestion is considered, it could open the flood gates to improving weapon wide enfeebling ws's all around.

[kingfury]

anyways some ideas I can come up with:
stop with the partal resist or resist effects, i mean you are using tp, but that brings in the question should flat blade stun thunder immune/ stun immune mobs? I mean you are using a weak weapon type/ weak ws/ to use 100 tp for a critial difference. same with brake effects though I am not sur what mobs are immune to them
same with full brake or any of the brake ws, skill should be a factor in the increasing levels for it's effect. I disagree with them going out of use.
even when c-ratio is caped would it be REALLY harmful to add 5-10% damage + effect to everyone? so you can warrent using tp on such effect over raw damage ws?
-------------------
Sorry Rambus, I read this and meant to say, /Agreed

[Zyeriis]

------------
Uhhh... this line /point >>

Why would it's practically exclusive weapon (aside from DRK being able to use it) get enfeebling weapon skills or buffs to it's already potent enfeebling weapon skills?

You said, "Why would GA "Get" enfeebling weapon skills... so that kinda threw me off. I saw the latter part of the line, but the 1st part flagged as you assumed I was asking for something that wasn't already there. My main issue is that they really are not that "potent" as they are now. The post calls for a reworking of the way the ws's effects are calculated. And the recent post above this one is saying that if this suggestion is considered, it could open the flood gates to improving weapon wide enfeebling ws's all around.

That's called nitpicking :/
Just because no one uses it, doesn't mean it's not potent as it is. The main problem is player preference, which isn't so easy to change. Also, what other enfeebling weaponskills? I again refer back to my first post where I mentioned the utter lack of enfeebling weaponskills on other weapon types (that WAR can use) such as Polearms, Clubs, Swords, Staves, and Great Swords. You can't boost what's not there.

The primary weapons that get enfeebling weapon skills are the Great Katana (#1 enfeebling weapon), Katana, and Scythe (WAR can use scythe). The very few weapons that WAR cannot use are generally the top enfeebling weapons. So why then do you equate WAR to being an enfeebling weapon skiller when it's far clearer that title belongs to SAM? I will say this one last time, they need to give enfeebling weapons to other weapon types before giving new ones OR boosting current enfeebling weaponskills on the Great Axe. I fail to see how this does not also benefit WAR, being as it would be able to use the aforementioned addition of enfeebling weapon skills to other weapon types because it can use said weapons.

For now, SAM is the true weaponskill enfeebling job and I truly wouldn't have it any other way, especially not if it goes to WAR primarily. You cannot boost what's not there (other weapons).

[kingfury]

That's called nitpicking :/
Just because no one uses it, doesn't mean it's not potent as it is. The main problem is player preference, which isn't so easy to change. Also, what other enfeebling weaponskills? I again refer back to my first post where I mentioned the utter lack of enfeebling weaponskills on other weapon types (that WAR can use) such as Polearms, Clubs, Swords, Staves, and Great Swords. You can't boost what's not there.
The primary weapons that get enfeebling weapon skills are the Great Katana (#1 enfeebling weapon), Katana, and Scythe (WAR can use scythe). The very few weapons that WAR cannot use are generally the top enfeebling weapons. So why then do you equate WAR to being an enfeebling weapon skiller when it's far clearer that title belongs to SAM? I will say this one last time, they need to give enfeebling weapons to other weapon types before giving new ones OR boosting current enfeebling weaponskills on the Great Axe. I fail to see how this does not also benefit WAR, being as it would be able to use the aforementioned addition of enfeebling weapon skills to other weapon types because it can use said weapons.
For now, SAM is the true weaponskill enfeebling job and I truly wouldn't have it any other way, especially not if it goes to WAR primarily. You cannot boost what's not there (other weapons).
----------------------
lol (*joking tone here*) No, it's called "reading and comprehension" ^^ I'm reading what you plugged in and responding! But I think I get the gist of what you're saying :)

For starters, I've used Full Break over the years as stated in the OP, and I'm sure that the ws is lacking in relevant potency for the user at least. To your list of enfeebling weapons, the ones you mention are the ones I'm referring to. Shockwave was brought up earlier in this thread for example, and to this very day, the description of that ws is about as misleading as a manthra. These types of ws's could indeed use some recalculation love along with Full Break.

"So why then do you equate WAR to being an enfeebling weapon skiller when it's far clearer that title belongs to SAM?"


I'm simply saying that the GA, based on Weapon Break, Shield Break, Armor Break and Full Break, classifies it as an enfeebling weapon. My suggestion to the Dev Team is to enhance the effectiveness of these ws's so they could be further defined during use. I agree that SAM does in fact hold the current title in the area of enfeebling ws's, so no argument there. And if you didn't know, I'm VERY for adding to the ws list of WARs /laugh (especially if Noodles is reading :D *that's a joke*)

So we're really on the same page I think.

[Mrbeansman]

------------------
Well, that's just silly talk to pin that on me. I wasn't told that my suggestion was being worked after all, I just got positive feedback for it.


You're thread encouraged said shit so you defiently share some of the blame even if it wasn't your intenion.


There's a lot of things I would like to be fix/improved in this game, so I'm not short on suggestions if that's what you equate to "continue to get fat headed and arrogant". Can't help you in this department either I'm afraid.

You made a thread saying "Hai Guys this content that's been planned for months is totally my idea from a week ago" If thats not being fat headed I don't know what is.


Don't know where you got that understanding from about the artist & arrogance thing, but personality traits are choices for each person. I choose to not be Arrogant with my art. Everything else from onlookers is assumed and fabricated.

I'm not saying its necessarily a bad thing.

[kingfury]

Say what'sits?! So any idea that sparks the interest of the Comm. Reps equates to promoting crappy threads eh? All righty then... can't say I share your thoughts on that, but good try.

"You made a thread saying "Hai Guys this content that's been planned for months is totally my idea from a week ago" If thats not being fat headed I don't know what is."

Metaphorical or Satirical tone here(maybe both) I'm assuming. If you're referring to the Gyms concept I suggested, I'm sure the Comm. Rep would have said something a bit different along the lines of "The Dev Team is currently planning etc., etc." rather than, "this is a good idea. I'll pass it on to the Devs".

I would equate Arrogance as a negative personality trait personally, but if that's your bag, I say run with it.

[Mrbeansman]

Say what'sits?! So any idea that sparks the interest of the Comm. Reps equates to promoting crappy threads eh? All righty then... can't say I share your thoughts on that, but good try.

There's a diffrence between suggesting ideas to fix things and make the game better and people like you who suggest totally new content that has a 99.99999999999999% chance of not being implemented. Even though your idea was decent you still encouraged a lot of terrible shit that was spewed by idiots across the forums with the intent to copy your success.


I would equate Arrogance as a negative personality trait personally, but if that's your bag, I say run with it.

Arrogance can spawn good art.

[Zyeriis]

King is a tad arrogant about it but, still. You're argument is that he somehow caused nonsense ideas to start spreading like wildfire? Hardly, those people still would've posted, there is no proof to say otherwise. Considering that you, yourself, have started 2 such topics, you hardly have any room to complain. "Store EXP"? Really? As if people not learning their jobs properly due to Abyssea leeching, is bad enough as it is. Course, it was likely a troll idea, wouldn't be surprised when you turn around and start flaming some one because they actually got some praise for an idea from the development staff.

That being said, I don't particularly find that "Gyms of Vana'diel" idea to be feasible to say the least. The game would become far too centered around it. Alas, that is completely off-topic as is your argument with king. Sounds to me like you're just trying to start a fight where there isn't one to be had (blatantly obvious) due to either A) Jealousy or B) Trolls will be Trolls.

Anyone who gets credit for an idea, is naturally bound to "inspire" other people to try. There isn't an argument here, but you are somehow trying to pin some of the lousy ideas (like your own) on king just because he possibly could've been the inspiration behind them. Arrogance can spawn good art and a Bad idea can spawn a Good one and vice versa: Good art can spawn arrogance and a Good Idea can spawn a Bad Idea. (Good can spawn good or bad, and Bad can spawn bad or good).

In the end, I assure you, bad ideas would still be posted regardless.

[Tamarsamar]

First of all kingfury, I'm pretty sure that nobody would object to your signature if it was (always) textless. Just saying.

Second of all, your watermelon analogy is slightly flawed, unless only a certain group of people may eat said watermelons. We'll say that this group of people are Americans, and assume Americans are more-or-less well-fed (while in reality this is hotly debatable depending on your standards of "well-fed," this premise is just for the sake of argument). What you are doing is roughly equivalent to encouraging increased yield for specifically only these American-only watermelons, while claiming that you're helping increase fruit (watermelon's a fruit, by the way) yield across the world. To put it extremely mildly, people are going to state that your claims are nonsense.

Third, if reason doesn't work, maybe this will deflate your head a little: the terms that you agreed to to use this forum essentially say that all your posts are belong to Square-Enix. So if you post about something, and S-E comments on it, and especially if they implement it, it stopped being yours the moment you posted it. You win nothing. Good day sir!

[kingfury]

I'm incredibly confused by what I'm hearing lol ><;

Accusing me of promoting crappy threads in part by my suggestions is shear poop in a hand basket, but I think a "Thank You" is in order so Thank You for considering my concept "decent". / I think... lol

[Mrbeansman]

King is a tad arrogant about it but, still. You're argument is that he somehow caused nonsense ideas to start spreading like wildfire? Hardly, those people still would've posted, there is no proof to say otherwise. Considering that you, yourself, have started 2 such topics, you hardly have any room to complain. "Store EXP"? Really? As if people not learning their jobs properly due to Abyssea leeching, is bad enough as it is. Course, it was likely a troll idea, wouldn't be surprised when you turn around and start flaming some one because they actually got some praise for an idea from the development staff.

You're Trolldar really sucks. That thread was a troll request from someone who no longer plays the game and couldn't post it themselves.

I have legitimate ideas for content the big difference between me and the rest is that I don't suffer under the delusion that my 12.99 a month buys me a spot on the board of directors.

[Mrbeansman]

I'm incredibly confused by what I'm hearing lol ><;

Accusing me of promoting crappy threads in part by my suggestions is shear poop in a hand basket, but I think a "Thank You" is in order so Thank You for considering my concept "decent". / I think... lol

By receiving a gold star by the community team you became an inspiration to idiots intentional or not. You cant honestly tell me that you think you are free of blame for some of the shit.

[Qeepel]

Hi guys, please keep the comments on topic. Thank you.

[kingfury]

First of all kingfury, I'm pretty sure that nobody would object to your signature if it was (always) textless. Just saying.
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The art was created for the concept, so they go together and I see no reason to change it based on such types of misunderstandings and assumptions.
--------

Second of all, your watermelon analogy is slightly flawed, unless only a certain group of people may eat said watermelons. We'll say that this group of people are Americans, and assume Americans are more-or-less well-fed (while in reality this is hotly debatable depending on your standards of "well-fed," this premise is just for the sake of argument). What you are doing is roughly equivalent to encouraging increased yield for specifically only these American-only watermelons, while claiming that you're helping increase fruit (watermelon's a fruit, by the way) yield across the world. To put it extremely mildly, people are going to state that your claims are nonsense.
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Wow... you successfully dodged that bit of "clear example" and have replaced it with something else entirely... uhh.. hmm.. Lets try one last time.
The watermelon in my example would represent "Full Break". If you managed to rework how it functioned (the way the effects were calculated), it would possibly alter the other weapon based enfeebles in FFXI by in turn sharing those new calculations. I don't think I can put it any more plane than that... so hopefully that clears it up for you.
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Third, if reason doesn't work, maybe this will deflate your head a little: the terms that you agreed to to use this forum essentially say that all your posts are belong to Square-Enix. So if you post about something, and S-E comments on it, and especially if they implement it, it stopped being yours the moment you posted it. You win nothing. Good day sir!
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Yeah... thanks for clearing that up >< /stagger. Reason works just fine with me, it's the opposite of it that I'm not to keen on. Yes, I'm quite aware that SE has a very capable legal department that understands the laws associated with "suggestions" offered up by players should they chose to implement them, so you have nothing to worry about in regards to me demanding a check. That, and I'm not an idiot... no offense to idiots though.

[Zyeriis]

You're Trolldar really sucks. That thread was a troll request from someone who no longer plays the game and couldn't post it themselves.

I have legitimate ideas for content the big difference between me and the rest is that I don't suffer under the delusion that my 12.99 a month buys me a spot on the board of directors.

-_- Really? You're going to use the "It wasn't my idea" defense? Really? I can't even pity that, it isn't even worth pity. Can't post it themselves? You don't need to have an active content id for the game to post on these forums. Just need a SE ID (which is free). My trolldar sucks? It was a troll thread...you said it was, regardless of whether it was a request or not. Are you touched in the head?

And yeah, I'd say he's free of blame due to free will and all. He can't stop them, which is proved by the fact that he can't stop your idiotic ramblings either. In this case, I guess you're proving you're point though: because of his thread, idiots (you, in this particular case) are posting stupid things on the forum. No argument there, though he can't stop you, only you can.

[kingfury]

Hi guys, please keep the comments on topic. Thank you.
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I will do my very best Qeepel /salute ^^;

Even though ramblings do happen, I try my best to reply to each post out of respect(even when they are at times devoid of respect), but if it looks like it's continuing to steer too far off topic, I'll just let it fall on a deaf ear.

[Mrbeansman]

-_- Really? You're going to use the "It wasn't my idea" defense? Really? I can't even pity that, it isn't even worth pity. Can't post it themselves? You don't need to have an active content id for the game to post on these forums. Just need a SE ID (which is free)

No you really have to have a working content ID to post on these forums. And really I posted that when the servers where down to draw out the "abyssea is killing the game" morons like Krystal cause I was bored.


My trolldar sucks? It was a troll thread...you said it was, regardless of whether it was a request or not. Are you touched in the head?

What the *** does this even mean? Are saying you knew it was a troll thread but called me out on posting it anyway?


And yeah, I'd say he's free of blame due to free will and all. He can't stop them, which is proved by the fact that he can't stop your idiotic ramblings either. In this case, I guess you're proving you're point though: because of his thread, idiots (you, in this particular case) are posting stupid things on the forum. No argument there, though he can't stop you, only you can.

I would stop but he seems determined to avoid any responsibility in this case.

[kingfury]

lol Tell you what Mrbean, out of concern that such foolishness will possibly get my thread locked, if it will in fact help you drop the topic then "yes", by offering up a (as you put it) "decent" suggestion on these general discussion boards I have in fact inspired others to try their hand at proposing their own ideas to the Dev Team. Whether they are quality ideas or not. END
Thanks for your feedback... wait... actually I don't think you had any feedback based on the thread topic... but no matter. /take care

[Mrbeansman]

lol Tell you what Mrbean, out of concern that such foolishness will possibly get my thread locked, if it will in fact help you drop the topic then "yes", by offering up a (as you put it) "decent" suggestion on these general discussion boards I have in fact inspired others to try their hand at proposing their own ideas to the Dev Team. Whether they are quality ideas or not. END
Thanks for your feedback... wait... actually I don't think you had any feedback based on the thread topic... but no matter. /take care

Not sure doesn't sound very sincere.

And whats there to say that hasn't been said already? It's a dumb idea unlike your last decent one.

[Rezeak]

I think that asking a WAR to sacrifice it's hardest hitting abilty (aka Weapon skill) to enfeeble a mob isn't the way to go.

If you want them to be used just make them Job abiltys but rememeber they shouldn't take the limelight from Angon or Feint

[Zyeriis]

No you really have to have a working content ID to post on these forums. And really I posted that when the servers where down to draw out the "abyssea is killing the game" morons like Krystal cause I was bored.



What the fuck does this even mean? Are saying you knew it was a troll thread but called me out on posting it anyway?



I would stop but he seems determined to avoid any responsibility in this case.

1) No you don't need an active content ID or I wouldn't have been able to post/join the forums during the week the servers were down.
2) You either A) Didn't actually read what I wrote and then quoted me, B) an idiot, or C) An experienced troll. All options are negative, no more need be said.
3) You "would" stop? I can see where your argument lays: "He's making me do it!" Same as your argument that he's somehow forcing/influences idiots to post idiotic things, much like you are doing. Which, like I said, you've already proved (though it is through your own free will that you are posting nonsense, not his fault, no matter how you want to play it).

Trolling or not, stupid ideas are the fault of the people who think of them, as are stupid posts the fault of those who write them. Trying to place blame on some one else superficially is just pathetic. Which you are now trying to pin 2 different instances of upon him. 1) That he is responsible for idiotic ideas that belong to other people and 2) that your idiotic posts are his doing. Ridiculous.

That's all I have left to say on this matter, done with this diversion attempt to place blame on some one else for other people's horrible ideas. No way that him getting any sort of praise from the dev team could inspire a good idea right? Would he get credit for those ideas too, regardless of any relation to his idea? No. I certainly wouldn't see you praising him instead were that the case.

[Tamarsamar]

The art was created for the concept, so they go together and I see no reason to change it based on such types of misunderstandings and assumptions.

I never would've guessed.

Seriously, though, if you can't see that the thing reeks of narcissism, then, well, perhaps you're narcissist . . .


Wow... you successfully dodged that bit of "clear example" and have replaced it with something else entirely... uhh.. hmm.. Lets try one last time.
The watermelon in my example would represent "Full Break". If you managed to rework how it functioned (the way the effects were calculated), it would possibly alter the other weapon based enfeebles in FFXI by in turn sharing those new calculations. I don't think I can put it any more plane than that... so hopefully that clears it up for you.

Again, it was already blatantly obvious what you meant by this, but since I am so naive as to believe that you can be taught that you're wrong, I'm going to try and say this one last time:

Adjustments to Full Break do NOTHING for any other Weapon Skill at all.

Why you seem to consistently fail to understand that is what baffles me. Can hubris really extend so far as to mire even basic concepts?


Yeah... thanks for clearing that up >< /stagger. Reason works just fine with me, it's the opposite of it that I'm not to keen on. Yes, I'm quite aware that SE has a very capable legal department that understands the laws associated with "suggestions" offered up by players should they chose to implement them, so you have nothing to worry about in regards to me demanding a check. That, and I'm not an idiot... no offense to idiots though.

If reason "worked fine with you," you would've seen that adjusting Full Break doesn't affect any other Weapon Skill three pages ago! Furthermore, should reason have "worked fine with you," you would've seen how utterly silly you look by making your current signature. Hopefully, you can see why I would be given reason to doubt this statement.



Pride, man. It's one heck of a drug.

[Mrbeansman]

Hai guys let me slow down our kill speed by doing armor break hur hur hur.

[noodles355]

Kingfury, your reply to me is 6 pages back, but I dont camp the forums to I was unable to replay immidately to your response.

My problem is not with you wanting to buff warrior. My problem is your suggestions without any actual prior thought to your suggestions in regards to any form of game balance. As I stated, a 37.5% increase is the same as giving every DD in the party/alliance a +60% Attack buff. That;s not huge, that's broken.

[Mirage]

To kingfury.

the -25% damage reduction has been tested extensively with parsers to find an average amount of damage increase after using it vs before.

You say you haven't noticed a difference, well that could very well be true, but that doesn't change the fact that the def down is definitely there, and if you're not going to notice a 25% decrease in def through "eyeing it" (which is an incredibly unreliable and imprecise way to test anything), you're probably wouldn't notice a 35% decrease either. Furthermore, you will notice far less of a damage increase on mobs with low defence already, which means just about *any* EXP mob the last years. Colibris aren't exactly known for having high defence, and in abyssea, attack values are already laughably high.

Also, if you don't like his sig, just block it and stop whining about it. Going off topic doesn't help your case.

[kingfury]

I never would've guessed.

Seriously, though, if you can't see that the thing reeks of narcissism, then, well, perhaps you're narcissist . . .
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That or you have serious envy issues you should address before commenting further. I'm done with this topic, thanks.
-----------

Again, it was already blatantly obvious what you meant by this, but since I am so naive as to believe that you can be taught that you're wrong, I'm going to try and say this one last time:
Adjustments to Full Break do NOTHING for any other Weapon Skill at all.
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Right, because you've attempted to be open-minded and offer creativity on this topic at which point? My replies to what you've said is all due to your lack of willingness to understand a thing I've said /stagger. "YOU", thankfully, are in no position to say whether or not adjustments to Full Break is a worthy suggestion, so while your opinion is excepted here, your closed-minded responses do little to add to the discussion. I'll await feedback from a worthy source, thanks.
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If reason "worked fine with you," you would've seen that adjusting Full Break doesn't affect any other Weapon Skill three pages ago! Furthermore, should reason have "worked fine with you," you would've seen how utterly silly you look by making your current signature. Hopefully, you can see why I would be given reason to doubt this statement.
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Annnd rinse and repeat the last two responses. Thanks again for your time. /

[Rambus]

shame this thread ended up like this

[kingfury]

To kingfury.
the -25% damage reduction has been tested extensively with parsers to find an average amount of damage increase after using it vs before.
You say you haven't noticed a difference, well that could very well be true, but that doesn't change the fact that the def down is definitely there, and if you're not going to notice a 25% decrease in def through "eyeing it" (which is an incredibly unreliable and imprecise way to test anything), you're probably wouldn't notice a 35% decrease either. Furthermore, you will notice far less of a damage increase on mobs with low defence already, which means just about *any* EXP mob the last years. Colibris aren't exactly known for having high defence, and in abyssea, attack values are already laughably high.
Also, if you don't like his sig, just block it and stop whining about it. Going off topic doesn't help your case.
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I hear ya ^^ and again those numbers were just a ballpark figure in regards to beefing up the effectiveness. But I have to say that's part of the problem in my opinion. Should I be able to see a difference? What good is it to have a ws that is dang-near non noticeable?? That's where my request is birthed to be honest. Imagine if folks stacked haste gear but saw no visible increase in attack speed. Or Movement speed for that matter. Folks would furious if the only reassurance they got that these things were working, was, "Oh it's there, but you just can't notice it by eye-balling it!"

So that brings me to the point at hand; what if you could see the results from Full Break and other enfeebling ws's much more prominently? That's what I wish to suggest to the Devs.

[kingfury]

Kingfury, your reply to me is 6 pages back, but I dont camp the forums to I was unable to replay immidately to your response.
My problem is not with you wanting to buff warrior. My problem is your suggestions without any actual prior thought to your suggestions in regards to any form of game balance. As I stated, a 37.5% increase is the same as giving every DD in the party/alliance a +60% Attack buff. That;s not huge, that's broken.
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I gotta go out now, but I'll get back to your response when I'm back in front of my screen again. Do me a favor though and break down where you're are getting the equation for your comment Noodles if you don't mind. Thanks.

[Mirage]

People don't really see a noticable increase in attack speed from just 10% haste either, does that mean you shouldn't use any sort of haste until you can have 40% haste all the time?

[kingfury]

I think that asking a WAR to sacrifice it's hardest hitting abilty (aka Weapon skill) to enfeeble a mob isn't the way to go.
If you want them to be used just make them Job abiltys but rememeber they shouldn't take the limelight from Angon or Feint
-----------------
Not as they are now, no, so I'd agree with you on that currently. If in fact GA's Breaks were strong enough effect wise, however, it would become a new battle tactic that would indeed warrant using before even the user themselves pop a ws, let alone other DD's in the party.

I say improve both Angon and Feint as well as Tomahawk moving forward to higher levels since they will be shoved into the corner of peoples mog house (if not already) after each passing update unless their effectiveness is addressed.

[kingfury]

People don't really see a noticable increase in attack speed from just 10% haste either, does that mean you shouldn't use any sort of haste until you can have 40% haste all the time?
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Well my point is shouldn't they see some noticeable increase? Even if it's like 1-2 seconds in-between a swing. I don't want to fight all calculations in this game, but there are tons of them that just don't make sense and should be addressed is all. ^^

But sense this is a ws we're talking about, TP is about the only modifier listed on the ws description, and it's in regards to duration. The effectiveness or "visible" effects of it working shouldn't be something that a players "wonders if it's working or not".

[TybudX]

The answer is yes and no. Some things you are going to notice, just because of how they work in game. You will notice when your hit rate goes up by 20% (Shield Break, eva-40) because of where it is calculated in the damage formula. You won't notice other things as easily, like -25% att, because it's a factor in a larger equation. Whether *you* specifically can see the effect or not has no bearing on how good the effect actually is. This is a game of small percentages, where the difference between top tier and (above) average is very slight. What you are suggesting is that anything that isn't glaringly visible to the naked and untrained eye isn't effective... welcome to 2004, BG wants your Turban back. You don't deserve it, you can wear gear with Slow on it, and hit harder. I mean, you can't visibly see the difference between -5% attack speed and +5% attack speed, but 10 STR? That's going to make you hit harder, amirite?

Yeah, some things are best left to a parser.

Also, you are completely ignoring what I said about your att and hit rate being so high that you will barely gain anything from using a break WS... this will not change by adding more potency, once you have reached the cap, you are done. no more benefit. I would argue that Weapon Break is the most useful of the break WSs for WAR right now, since duoing is so popular, and WAR still subs SAM. Lowering enemy attack by 25% is almost guaranteed to result in at least 25% less physical damage taken, which combined with a decent pdt set would be a huge boost to WARs' tanking ability. You seem to scoff at pdt taken- gear, though. Wearing a reasonable build with 20% in it, you can't see the difference in your chat log? You can't see a removing 1 in 5 of a mob's attacks, the same as the mob missing you 20% of the time?

Also. What. The. Hell. There are tons of calculations in this game that just don't make sense to you? They should be "addressed"? I take it back. You are arrogant. It took me all of an afternoon to research damage calculations for this game years ago. I am quite possibly the slowest math-tard on the face of the Earth. What I learned is that SE somehow managed to develop an elegant, simple way to deal with combat in FFXI. Very simple. You think that a well thought out, balanced, scaling system needs to be "addressed"? Like ****. Take 3 hours to learn what you are actually asking, instead of going on about how unfiar the game design is because you can't see some huge number on your screen.

[Corwin]

I had a good response but after I kept getting a gag reflex at terrible emote spam and fuzzy math skills I realized it would've been a waste of time.

[noodles355]

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I gotta go out now, but I'll get back to your response when I'm back in front of my screen again. Do me a favor though and break down where you're are getting the equation for your comment Noodles if you don't mind. Thanks.
My quoted number comes from a simple maths equation:
a 37.5% decrease in an enemy's defence can be regarded as multiplying the enemies defence by 0.625. When we look at gear and decide on which pieces will be the most effective we look at the DoT increase of each individual stat, breaking them down into % increases so they can be equally compared. This is how we breakdown different DD stats like Double Attack, Haste, Accuracy, Attack, Etc etc into a single unit of data that we can compare and thus decide the most effective piece of equipment for the job. (If you want, I can provide a mathy example)

Taking the enemy's defence from 100% (normal) to 62.5% (what it would be after recieving a 37.5% defence down ability (100-37.5=62.5)) would be an increase to my DoT of: 100/62.5 = 1.6 = 160% increase to my DoT. This is where I pulled that 60% number from. Stating it's like giving a 60% attack buff was slightly inaccurate due to diminishing returns, but going into too much detail would alieanate casual players who don't care about maths!

[Mirage]

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Well my point is shouldn't they see some noticeable increase? Even if it's like 1-2 seconds in-between a swing. I don't want to fight all calculations in this game, but there are tons of them that just don't make sense and should be addressed is all. ^^

No, because a 2 second decrease in delay is like 20% haste (assuming a... 400ish delay already?). Of course 10% haste shouldn't be 20%, are you crazy?

[TybudX]

Going with what Noodles just said... it's highly unlikely that any DD would ever see the full benefit of a 60% increase in attack. If such a buff were to exist it would necessitate DDs completely reworking their gear and food choices to not include attack. That pretty much leaves... nothing. Not a damn thing for most DDs to use for food, and a vast swath of gear rendered useless, all by one WS.

[noodles355]

Not quite,
Attack+ has a cap, eventually you will reach this. Defence Down effects for all intents and purposes don't (well, they will, but you can't get an enemy's defence lower enough for it to cap, so it's irrelevant). Even if you were completely Attack capped, a defence down effect would still increase your damage. In this case by roughly 60%. I say roughly because it depends on it's stacking with any other defence down effect, but as most do not stack (see angon and acid bolts) it's fairly reasonable to just state 60% for simplicity.

[TybudX]

Uh, wut? Defense down, while not capping, does effect the relative cap for attack, when considering ratio. Once you have capped cRatio, all lowering defense does is lower the amount of attack needed to cap.

Two handed weapon vs. mob of equal level with 200 defense. You would need 440 attack to have capped pDIF. If you lowered the mob's defense by 25%, to 150, it would only take 330 attack.

[kingfury]

The answer is yes and no. Some things you are going to notice, just because of how they work in game. You will notice when your hit rate goes up by 20% (Shield Break, eva-40) because of where it is calculated in the damage formula. You won't notice other things as easily, like -25% att, because it's a factor in a larger equation. Whether *you* specifically can see the effect or not has no bearing on how good the effect actually is. This is a game of small percentages, where the difference between top tier and (above) average is very slight. What you are suggesting is that anything that isn't glaringly visible to the naked and untrained eye isn't effective... welcome to 2004, BG wants your Turban back. You don't deserve it, you can wear gear with Slow on it, and hit harder. I mean, you can't visibly see the difference between -5% attack speed and +5% attack speed, but 10 STR? That's going to make you hit harder, amirite?
Yeah, some things are best left to a parser.
Also, you are completely ignoring what I said about your att and hit rate being so high that you will barely gain anything from using a break WS... this will not change by adding more potency, once you have reached the cap, you are done. no more benefit. I would argue that Weapon Break is the most useful of the break WSs for WAR right now, since duoing is so popular, and WAR still subs SAM. Lowering enemy attack by 25% is almost guaranteed to result in at least 25% less physical damage taken, which combined with a decent pdt set would be a huge boost to WARs' tanking ability. You seem to scoff at pdt taken- gear, though. Wearing a reasonable build with 20% in it, you can't see the difference in your chat log? You can't see a removing 1 in 5 of a mob's attacks, the same as the mob missing you 20% of the time?
Also. What. The. Hell. There are tons of calculations in this game that just don't make sense to you? They should be "addressed"? I take it back. You are arrogant. It took me all of an afternoon to research damage calculations for this game years ago. I am quite possibly the slowest math-tard on the face of the Earth. What I learned is that SE somehow managed to develop an elegant, simple way to deal with combat in FFXI. Very simple. You think that a well thought out, balanced, scaling system needs to be "addressed"? Like ****. Take 3 hours to learn what you are actually asking, instead of going on about how unfiar the game design is because you can't see some huge number on your screen.
----------------------
I heard what you said earlier about all those nice facts about caps and such, but I have to keep saying that whatever is in the current code that's preventing me from seeing this ws as something noticeably effective should be adjusted so that I can see it. Regardless of the wonderful math in place, suggesting a more visible effect from the ws so it could be used more frequently is all I'm asking for. I never said it has to be over the top, just substantial enough to see the difference once the ws has been used. That's the bottom line.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] I've spent 8 years trying to understand this ever changing game that even SE has had to admit to certain mistakes they've made in certain systems, so elegant wouldn't really be the best word in describing the battle system. It is a masterpiece of programing, but like all games of this sort, it's an ever changing work in progress. In case you've been under a rock, SE has had to readjust the inner workings of nearly every in-game mechanic present in this game at least once since the game was released, so it's not "Arrogant" to suggest improvement to a damn enfeebling ws. It would be arrogant if said something like, "I'm a newly graduated game designer, and I can easily create a better enfeebling system than what SE has with my eyes close! They suck, and I'm great so suck it!" but I'm saying nothing of the sort. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Nothing's arrogant about what I'm suggesting, so don't put words in my mouth. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] Read my post again if you need to recap. I said I'm not for imbalance, that the change doesn't need to be over powered just noticeable, that such a change would take testing and feedback. That's what I've said throughout the post.

[TybudX]

I never said it has to be over the top, just substantial enough to see the difference once the ws has been used. That's the bottom line.

You aren't getting it. Plain and simple. You will never be able to see a substantial difference when one of these WSs has been used, unless somebody in your party is so lacking tat they can make use of 20% hit rate, or 25% attack. The only reasonable thing SE can do to make it more clear to you is change the chat log to reference when the WS break effect is taking place, and when it is wearing off. There is absolutely no reason for SE to change basic game code, fundamental game code, so that people like you can see tiny changes in damage like a flashing red neon sign. Get over it. It might be simple, but ti isn't 1 + 1. If you aren't smart enough to understand that, tough ****ing luck. I suggest you take up slot machines, I hear they are plenty colourful just for special cases like you.

edit - And again: you have zero understanding of what you are asking for. None.Go spend some time learning the game mechanics on wiki, then come back here and defend your ridiculous suggestions. Get butthurt asking for the least thought out 'buffs' to a job that have ever been suggested.

Get this through your ****ing skull: NO AMOUNT OF BUFF WILL EVER MAKE A GREAT AXE BREAK WS GOOD. EVER. The absolute best effect they have, def-, generally has zero ZERO zero effect on a WARs damage. ****ing zero. None.

You are flat out suggesting that SE render the entire basis of combat math obsolete so that you can ****ing see a difference in damage in your chat log. YOU ARE SUGGESTING THAT YOUR RETARDED IDEA IS BETTER THAN WHAT SE HAS BEEN DOING FOR 8 YEARS+.

Holy ****ing retard Batman, I think I just got on the short bus by accident.

[kingfury]

I tell you what, unfortunately, I am again going back and forth with someone that is NOT a game programmer in the slightest, /stagger so you have to forgive me for being frustrated with your lack of creativity on the topic at hand.

If you're bound by such things and concepts as if to think that altering game code is impossible, this is an enormous red flag that you truly don't understand game development. NOTHING is impossible if you are the one that makes the game. Absolutely nothing. I'm not asking that SE render the entire basis of combat math obsolete at all, or to alter it for some silly purpose. The facts you have listed are not beyond me, trust me, I truly understand the limitations you have repeated multiple times now. You however have failed to understand the point I'm making.

I'm not the only GA user that has no practical use for FOUR ws's in my ws list as they are. Not now, or in the coming level caps. That is a FAILING game mechanic. THAT'S NEARLY HALF OF THE STANDARD WS'S FOR GA! It doesn't take a game developer to see such a fact. Multiple posters in this thread alone have said "why even bother with these weapon skills when you could just use a damaging one?", and you still think I'm not addressing a valid issue? Weapon skills should not be left to rot in your list if they have intended use within the battle system. But rotting is exactly what they will continue to do if no attention is put towards them.

As developers of this game, IF the Dev Team was as closed-minded as you are, there would be NO SUGGESTION BOARD! Every single suggestion to adjust an in-game mechanic to work better would be swiftly met with your harsh and utter slight-sighted and empty creativity that would bash the head of any player that DARED to question the hidden game math. "THE GAME IS PERFECT AS IT IS YOU F'ING TARD!!... but thank you for your suggestion though" /wave. Sound familiar to your recent post any? /sigh

In closing, I don't expect any non creative people to view this thread and offer any constructive/creative feedback. You do well as filler post, and it's always good to attempt to elevate the thinking of others when you can. I'm not saying I'm brilliant, or smarter than anyone else, but intelligence can be shown via creativity and I know for a fact that the Devs are full of creative minds that can see a difficult and creative suggestion and see the potential in what it could do for their players. They've shown this multiple times throughout the years of developing this game, and even since the creation of these boards. Their intelligence and wisdom is what spawned this message board. You can't create a game like this without listening to the player's feedback and suggestions for change for long.

They've reworked major systems in this game based on player feedback that called for progressive change before but you seem to not remember these instances. So, again to reiterate my point, at the base of what I'm proposing, I'm calling for action to rework a system that is causing up to four ws's(and potentially more enfeebling ws's outside of GA) to be considered useless by a LARGE number of players. That is a real problem, and regardless of your ability to see it, such a problem deserves attention.

Thanks for the back and forth though, it always helps to get me to a clarifying point such as this. /take care

[Eeek]

I think it's a great idea to retardedly overpower Full Break so that it obsoletes the collective debuffing abilities of every other melee and mage in the game all at the same time. Brilliant!

[kingfury]

/smiles warmly at Eeek's perfectly timed response ^^

[Eeek]

I didn't read all the thread, so I don't know if I was the first to be the voice of reason.

Probably not the first, but that's ok. The more voices of reason the merrier.

[Tamarsamar]

kingfury is seriously implying that he's the only open-minded person on this board by demanding some bragging rights numbers on top of his bragging rights numbers.

I think it's more likely that it would make him the only empty-minded person.

[kingfury]

I didn't read all the thread, so I don't know if I was the first to be the voice of reason.
Probably not the first, but that's ok. The more voices of reason the merrier.
----------
Oh, trust me, I know you didn't take time and read anything. That's what the /smile was for ^^

[kingfury]

kingfury is seriously implying that he's the only open-minded person on this board by demanding some bragging rights numbers on top of his bragging rights numbers.
I think it's more likely that it would make him the only empty-minded person.
------------
I'm sure with enough time, you'll formulate and fabricate in your mind that I have also single-handedly wronged everyone on every topic ever created in the history of every message board there ever was. You have a wonderfully imaginative thinker there, and should look into writing kid books.

[Tamarsamar]

------------
I'm sure with enough time, you'll formulate and fabricate in your mind that I have also single-handedly wronged everyone on every topic ever created in the history of every message board there ever was. You have a wonderfully imaginative thinker there, and should look into writing kid books.

That put a grin on my face. You're almost adorable when you're so wrong and self-righteous.

[kingfury]

Thanks, but since you're a taru, you easily beat me out in cuteness when you're playing that role ^^

[Tamarsamar]

Thanks, but since you're a taru, you easily beat me out in cuteness when you're playing that role ^^

Hah! Seems like you don't surpass the elvaan in lack of wit and humility after all!

I'll grant you the question "is it you, or is it me?" But you have to remember that over the duration of this thread, there have also been questions of "is it you, or is it Mrbeanman?" "Is it you, or is it TybudX?" "Is it you, or is it Zyeriis?" And so on. You yourself have admitted to being a horribly simple person, and it's quite obvious that, in spite of however many ways all the rest of us try to explain it to you, you quite simply have no idea what you're talking about.

When it's you against the world, apply Occum's razor and take the simplest option that, since you don't really know what you're talking about, and everybody else seems against you, it's best to accept that you are therefore most incredibly likely to be wrong. You'll save yourself 10 pages of time and effort that way if you do so next time.

[kingfury]

Well that's a fair question...

I won't use any analogies this time to make sure I'm coming through clear. I think my biggest mistake in this thread, besides trying to argue with closed-minded folks, was trying to toss out possible increased values to enhance Full Break based on the "Current" in-game methods of calculating the ws's effectiveness. I'm asking for enhancements and a "reworking" of the very system that governs how the ws's effectiveness is calculated, so that was my mistake and I have to apologize for tossing it out there.

Over the course of the thread, however, I've tried to focus less on the current known calculations since there's nothing to really argue in regards to trying to enhance the ws through the current system(as in you can't fix the issue through the current systems' mechanics), and more on the problems' potential to revolutionize the aspects of enfeebling ws's and JA's (angon, Dia, feint, and tomahawk, etc.) game wide. If you can "adjust" or "reconfigure" the aspects of the current system that is causing these things to appear as weak and fruitless to the players, based on the concept of growing ever more powerful as we rise in level, a possible new and more balanced system could be born from it.

Unfortunately, once people get ahold of a concept such as, "But you just don't get it! Nothing can be done to improve this ws! NOTHING!!", it's kind've hard drive a point such as "progression" home. I'll just say, since I don't think I've said this yet(or at least in these words...I'll have to go back and check), that for the record, each one of you are right to say that based on the current battle system, it would be near impossible to enhance the enfeebling ws's in question to the point I'm suggesting. Which is a point, by the way, that is not to make it down play any other enfeebling method in the game but rather additionally bolster those other methods through it's revamping. Which is why I'm asking for such a reworking that would possibly IMPROVE the system for all.

As it stands, I am by far, not the only person that views these ws's as weak and a waist of TP, so I hope that I can be absolved from sounding like I'm the only person effected by it or that wants to see it enhanced. Am I "wrong" for wanting to have a more effective ws? Is any player wrong for wanting to see improvements to this game? If you suggested change to a current in-game system based on nothing except "what you would like to see changed", does that make you wrong? My simple answer would be no. I know there are systems in place that make the game function the way it does, but SE asked us for feedback to those systems, and that's all I'm doing. My feedback on THIS particular topic is GA has 4 ws's sitting in it's ws list that are pretty weak in terms of effectiveness, and I would like to see some enhancements of some kind to improve them. That's all.

[TybudX]

I'll make this simple.

Want to see the full effect of Armor Break? You need to fight a mob with 1600 defense. Most mobs are around 350-400, with some HNMs having upwards of 800 or so.

Want to see the full effect of Shield Break? You need to fight mobs with higher evasion. A lot higher than what is currently out there.

It isn't the design of the WSs at fault. In order for them to be good, SE needs to make mobs that nobody would ever consider fun. Would you really like to farm some mob with 1600 defense? Or fight a mob that you could barely break 20% hit rate on, even with sushi? No, it would suck, it would take all day to do anything, just so you can have your special WSs and be able to see your big numbers. Meanwhile the rest of the player population would be wondering why SE took a giant leap back into the stone age.

edit - And yes, you are arrogant. You assume that your idea has some sort of merit, despite the fact that you know nothing about how the game is coded. You assume SE should change the entire basis of the code for your personal gain. You maintain this stance despite several people explaining to you why what you are asking for can't work. You toss patronizing language and symbols at other posters as if to say that they just aren't smart enough to know what you are talking about. I'd say that's arrogant. You're also that other term you used, what was it? Oh, retarded.

[Tamarsamar]

kingfury: you know what made the "gyms" thread "decent?" You describe it on a bleeding edge of detail, complete with pictures! Furthermore, it served to address a popular problem that players are having, that being lacking a decent or even fun method of gaining skillups.

This thread, however? You're basically asking "oh, could you please magically somehow make my Great Axe Weapon Skills 'look' better, and possibly some other enfeebling-style things too maybe?" And nobody needs or even wants that.

Again: One dev comment doesn't make every cussing thing from your head in to solid gold all of a sudden. See that it's not "everybody else" that's being "closed-minded," and get over yourself already. Please.

[kingfury]

I'll make this simple.
Want to see the full effect of Armor Break? You need to fight a mob with 1600 defense. Most mobs are around 350-400, with some HNMs having upwards of 800 or so.
Want to see the full effect of Shield Break? You need to fight mobs with higher evasion. A lot higher than what is currently out there.
It isn't the design of the WSs at fault. In order for them to be good, SE needs to make mobs that nobody would ever consider fun. Would you really like to farm some mob with 1600 defense? Or fight a mob that you could barely break 20% hit rate on, even with sushi? No, it would suck, it would take all day to do anything, just so you can have your special WSs and be able to see your big numbers. Meanwhile the rest of the player population would be wondering why SE took a giant leap back into the stone age.
edit - And yes, you are arrogant. You assume that your idea has some sort of merit, despite the fact that you know nothing about how the game is coded. You assume SE should change the entire basis of the code for your personal gain. You maintain this stance despite several people explaining to you why what you are asking for can't work. You toss patronizing language and symbols at other posters as if to say that they just aren't smart enough to know what you are talking about. I'd say that's arrogant. You're also that other term you used, what was it? Oh, retarded.
-------------------------
OMG... I-I... I mean... there are just no words... Y-You seriously have to be kidding me here. You honestly have the nerve to call me retarded after you've just blatantly validated the very point I've been making all along with clear examples and nice little numbers to boot? I feel strangely glad that you've stayed along talking with me all this time all of a sudden, but completely baffled at the same time. I'll help you see what I'm talking about by summing up what you just posted here. Then I'll repeat it, so you really can grasp what just happened.

Ok... The point of this thread is to ask the Dev Team to rework the ws's in question since their worth at the moment is very hard to validate with the current systems that govern it's effectiveness.

We've gone back and forth throughout this thread with each other about whether or not I was insane for asking such a thing in the 1st place since you believe the battle system is working fine the way it is. No need to change anything for my silly wants to see visible improves to the ws's.

Now stay with me here... What you've just elegantly posted above is this:
In order to make these Break weapon skills have any worth what so ever, SE would have to introduce ridiculously, imbalanced and broken enemies to the game for them to function at a level in which players could actually notice their effects taking place.

One more time:
In order to make these Break weapon skills have any worth what so ever, SE would have to introduce ridiculously, imbalanced and broken enemies to the game for them to function at a level in which players could actually notice their effects taking place....

Sir, you've just unknowingly agreed with me and proved my point to be true all in one post. That at it's current functioning, these ws's will never be of any use within the current system of things because how they are coded since we currently don't even have monsters, let alone HNMs, that would allow players to even notice the intended effects of them in-game. You've single-handedly giving "merit" to my suggestion all in one swoop. So in essence, I guess now we're both "arrogant" since we both agree and understand that the current code in place would have to warrant broken enemies into the game for these battle intended ws's to function as intended, right? Nice. There should probably be something done to address this very fact though... I dunno, maybe a revamp of some sort to the code... hmmm.

I'm glad you know as much as you do about how the game is coded eh, otherwise we could have never reached this shared understanding /hurray

Now as a disclaimer, I'm aware of this never ending loop-like trend that's occurring at this point. No matter how clearly I, or anyone else for that matter, make this point plain for you to see and understand, you'll just rummage through it and fire back with more "You're dumb/arrogant and I'm smart" mess in order to make yourself feel like the victor for some reason I can't begin to understand. After such a ground breaking post from you, I would like to extend my virtual handshake to you and end on a good note. I'll just wait to hopefully hear back from the Community Reps to see whether my suggestion is possible or not from this point. No further grade school level name calling from you is necessary moving forward. Thanks for the chat. /wave

[kingfury]

kingfury: you know what made the "gyms" thread "decent?" You describe it on a bleeding edge of detail, complete with pictures! Furthermore, it served to address a popular problem that players are having, that being lacking a decent or even fun method of gaining skillups.
This thread, however? You're basically asking "oh, could you please magically somehow make my Great Axe Weapon Skills 'look' better, and possibly some other enfeebling-style things too maybe?" And nobody needs or even wants that.
Again: One dev comment doesn't make every cussing thing from your head in to solid gold all of a sudden. See that it's not "everybody else" that's being "closed-minded," and get over yourself already. Please.
------------------
^^ Well sorry to disappoint you lol, but my Gyms post had very visual themes and concepts that warranted some extra visual aid and detailed descriptions. All of which had nothing to do with recoding of current system codes of course lol. There's not much to illustrate in regards to a "reworking of the ws's code" suggestion unless you would like to see an illustration of the reduced attack damage numbers displayed over a players head ^^ Hey if it would help explain my suggestion better for ya, I'll get right on that lol /

In regards to whether folks would need or use these ws's should they be made to function in a way that could be noticed by players during battle, ask a RDM if they use Dia III that often. Then ask them why. If not for the reasons of the quoted -15% in DEF, since that can barely be noticed, I'm sure it's for the very noticeable Damage over time which can EASILY be noticed once landed. They can kill NM's with it and all that, right? So yeah, if the effects of the Break ws's in question were indeed noticeable and effective, players would use them all the time. Well, players that know how to use battle strategies and such. Players want ws's, JA's, spells, JT's, etc. that they can see works once these things are activated.

Ahhh, and there you go fantasizing again >< I don't post with such things on my mind Tamar, I just post about things that I have concerns about and things that I would like to see addressed. I'm going to draw a Taru based on you that wears a T-shirt with the word "Hater" printed on it if you keep coming up with this kind of stuff for no apparent reason ^^ And yes, he will have Tamarsamar hovering over his head.

[noodles355]

Uh, wut?Yeah, for some reason my brain melted and I was concidering defence down as physical damage taken+. Serves me right for posting drunk.

[TybudX]

It's ok, I actually had to open wiki to see if I was being wooshed or not. It's been so long since I've looked at the formulas I wasn't sure if I was remembering them correctly.

And kingfury. I just don't know. The reason you are feeling completely baffled is because you are an idiot. I have been trying to show you in simple terms why adjusting the break skills can't work. Are you seriously trying to turn the points I brought up around on me when you had zero comprehension of what I was even talking about before I raised them?

Where did you ever suggest making all mobs IT+++++? Are you now saying that's a reasonable solution to what (only) you see as a problem?

No, all I see is you clinging to your stupid notion that you should be able to eyeball some super jump in damage when you use your uber break weapon skills. I explained why you don't see it, so you suggest changing the formulas for combat... so you can see more damage!

I just want you to answer one question. Lets say SE follows your example, and removes the caps on cRatio and hit rate. When you have 100% accuracy, drop your Shield Break II, and still can't see that extra 50% hit rate you should have gotten, will you expect SE to change the laws of physics for you?

[Mirage]

Nah, obviously every percentage above 100 should turn into +1% double attack!
But because you can't "eye" a difference in 1% DA, it should probably be 50% DA per percentage above 100.

[kingfury]

It's ok, I actually had to open wiki to see if I was being wooshed or not. It's been so long since I've looked at the formulas I wasn't sure if I was remembering them correctly.
And kingfury. I just don't know. The reason you are feeling completely baffled is because you are an idiot. I have been trying to show you in simple terms why adjusting the break skills can't work. Are you seriously trying to turn the points I brought up around on me when you had zero comprehension of what I was even talking about before I raised them?
Where did you ever suggest making all mobs IT+++++? Are you now saying that's a reasonable solution to what (only) you see as a problem?
No, all I see is you clinging to your stupid notion that you should be able to eyeball some super jump in damage when you use your uber break weapon skills. I explained why you don't see it, so you suggest changing the formulas for combat... so you can see more damage!
I just want you to answer one question. Lets say SE follows your example, and removes the caps on cRatio and hit rate. When you have 100% accuracy, drop your Shield Break II, and still can't see that extra 50% hit rate you should have gotten, will you expect SE to change the laws of physics for you?
---------------
The fourth grade must be fun eh?

And you see what I meant by this never ending loop right? Great gooses man. /sigh
My point is, I didn't need a formula to understand the ws is utterly useless to me man, I've tested the darn thing for years. You're the one tossing up the number argument. I actually believe you have taking a few hours out of your days to dig around the wiki for these numbers, so I trust your findings you've posted enough to make valid that you see the problem at hand with the ws's. Don't get mad at me since you've come to terms with what I was saying all along is in fact valid; the GA's Break ws's are about as useless as a Bow and arrow made out of wet noodles. Name calling won't change your new found understanding I'm afraid /stagger lol

Even after agreeing with me, you still have steam left to mush on eh? I'll leave this sad example of a debate to rest now if you please. It's not very rewarding to have a mental battle with someone that prefers to toss poop once they've been reduced to having no argument y'know.

Please, don't pretend to attempt to talk creatively with such a condescending and belittle tone. It's like a fat person trying to walk lightly. It's counter productive. If the Devs consider my suggestion, they will do so with a creative and balanced mindset that would benefit the entire game. That much I'm sure of.

[kingfury]

Nah, obviously every percentage above 100 should turn into +1% double attack!
But because you can't "eye" a difference in 1% DA, it should probably be 50% DA per percentage above 100.
--------------
lol (*Joking Tone Here*) You forgot to hit your own "Like" button again! ^^ (*A JOKE* so don't get pissy yeah)
I /laughed at your post ^^

[Mirage]

the only reason you would say that is because you do that yourself

[kingfury]

lol you can check my post if you like ^^ Aww c'mon now where's the smiles? i was just pullin your chain

[Urteil]

Faux-happiness is irritating.

[kingfury]

Faux-happiness is irritating.
---------
I agree, but so is a group of salty folks with a lack of humor >< lol I gotta break the repetitive "I'M MAD AT YOU!" tone somehow right? ^^

Plus, I'm not angry at anyone on this thread. I wouldn't dare invest "heavy" emotion on such a thing as a suggestion board ^^ The level of seriousness throughout this thread is no different from what I've dealt with in-game for years. Folks throw temper tantrums all day, every day inside FFXI when they don't agree with you. It's the status quo it seems for most folks to get to the "name calling", "belittling", "Calling you crazy for daring to think outside the box" I've found, so I'm pretty use to this sort of thing. At the end of the day, we're having a "so called" debate over an online game. Seriously losing your giblets over such a thing really isn't worth it. Even the weak attacks tossed at me are taken with humorous tone.

I'm not faking happiness at all, so by all means, no need to ruin your day over anything posted here. ^^/

Though it is pretty sad when you can type (*JOKING TONE*) and people still twist their panties >< lol

[Arcon]

All the flame aside, I can understand the desire for improving useless WS. After all, no one uses them like they are now, so why are they even in the game?

Personally I had a hard time wrapping my head around this argument, because I don't like "idle" content, content that is just there but serves no purpose. However, that content is what makes up 95% of the game. And if you think about it, look at the sheer amount of content the game has right now. This extends far beyond weapon skills. Gear is probably the best/worst example of how this imbalance has progressed.

Why don't you use level 7 leather gear at level 75+? Because there's better options. Tons and tons of better options. And there's tons and tons of better options than those aforementioned better options. I'd like to say that 90% of all gear in the game is obsolete. And know what? It's at lower levels too. There's both armor and weapons that simply aren't worth getting, even at their appropriate levels.

What about spells? Why don't high level BLMs don't use Stone II anymore? Zones, why is no one going to Carpenter's Landing or Dangruf Wadi?

The list goes on and on. And it's the exact same thing here. Some WS are meant to be better than others. At some point, WS are simply outdated. And know what? Compared to other items mentioned before, these WS aren't even that useless. Maybe with the way the game currently plays, but the effects of these WS are based on the number of people an in alliance. There's always one WAR who is simply subpar. Their Raging Rushes don't exceed 600 damage, they whiff for 80% of the time and they are slow to mele/engage. They are often better off using a Break WS than actually trying to deal damage themselves. And good WARs? Simply ignore those WS, they are outdated. They already have plenty of useful WS, compared to other jobs, Raging Rush, King's Justice and Steel Cyclone all have a justification to be used. And now Ukko's Fury dominates them all.

The sooner you wrap your head around the fact that some things are meant to die, the better. Because it's unrealistic the opposite will happen. Why should all WS be good in the first place? Which one would you use? You want a different WS for all two hundred different situations? It's simply not meant to be.

[kingfury]

@ Arcon: Now here's a valid debate that's devoid of the crap, so thanks for the breath of fresh air.

I can see your points, and you make a good argument with them, but lets look at it another way for second. Yes, you're absolutely correct that Items, Food, Weapons, and most of all Gear should in fact fit inside the logic "that some things are eventually meant to die or become outdated". These things are satellite concepts to the one true scaleable and growing theme inside this game which happens to be "The Player". Even though the Devs are attempting to change that to some degree with Synergy Augments soon, and has done a GREAT job with weapons via the Trial of the Magians system, the fact will remain true, that far superior options are of course awaiting us as time goes on.

But look back to the "ever growing and evolving Player". Job abilities, Spells, and weapon skills really shouldn't fit in the same category as the above mentioned items in my opinion. I believe they should be just as scaleable and ever-growing as we are because they are tied to our growth as players. Players don't receive new weapons/gear once they've leveled up or acquired enough skill using a weapon, but they do receive new weapon skills and job abilities. It's not that they can't be made to be scaleable. With the similar logic of what was put into the Trial of the Magians system, technically speaking the Devs could /toss out things like spell tiers all together and have stuff like "STONE(+1-6)", and "CURE(+1-6)" in an effort to make such things scaleable as we increase in level and grow more powerful. The "Merit Point System" was in essence a very simplified Trial of the Magian system for JA's if you think about it. You had to go out and do stuff (gain exp) to then return to the system and "turn in" your required currency (merit points) to improve your JA's. So if you see it as it would be seen via the Trial of the Magians system, it would look like "Berserk+2" and "Double Attack+5" and so on. One of the biggest problems with the Merit Point system in fact was that we didn't get to pick from a list of all our abilities when deciding which JA we wanted to enhance. The same goes for the TotM weapons. The Devs decided for us.

Take Berserk for instance. It's a level 15 JA that still has use at level 90. That's scaleability right there lol, and it's as it should be as far as I'm concerned. Weaponskills should be just as scaleable right? Not to say that one ws is "more useful" than the other, cause that would warrant change to the game if things are non useful, but rather have "different uses" during battle.

A good WAR, or player for that matter, understands both offense and defense in this game and how to balance both based on the situation in front of them. Trying to run in and do high amounts of damage ALL the time for every situation is a quick way of getting yourself K.O.'d most of the time. Strategy is what is bred from our weapon skills and Job abilities. Now imagine for a moment that the Break ws's used on GA were just as effective now at lvl 90 as they were the day a player received them. Wouldn't that breed more strategy during battle vs trying to only do the most melee damage? As you know, some monsters in this game just don't accept that type of strategy.

In terms of distinguishing which ws deals the most damage over another, this too bothers me to some extent. Well it bothers a LOT of players in fact lol. Just look at the changes that are about to made to Relics based on just such a debate. It makes no sense that ws's should be outdated as we rise in skill levels and power, and frankly it pissed those people off that they worked their butts of to achieve these weapons and ws's only to find they are poop compared to new weapon skills. So what did SE do? They listened! They agreed that this should not be the case, and are making the effort to CHANGE the current coding around to balance it out. I'm suggesting such change based on the same principles towards these Break weapon skills.

If it sounds crazy to others, it's just because it's too far out of the box for them to understand that I'm simply asking for balanced natural progression of the abilities we receive whether early on at low levels or in upcoming version updates. Just like Relic ws's, I believe these beginning ws's should follow the same suit of scaleability as our JA's.

Again thanks for posting a valid argument devoid of the kiddy crap. /salute

[Eeek]

Kingfury, here's the deal...

I, along with many other people here, have participated in brainstorming sessions in our academic and professional lives. Tossing out bad ideas is part of the process - silly, terrible, improbable, and infeasible ideas tend to be sparks for good ideas. It's important, however, to assess and separate the ideas objectively and without passion. No one respects or thinks highly of the person who goes to the mat tirelessly defending every idea, good and bad. It bogs down the process.

While I believe it's ultimately unnecessary, the "Gyms of Vana'diel" concept was a decently good idea. It remains to be seen whether or not that concept will see implementation into FFXI in one form or another, but it wouldn't surprise me to see implemented later on in the year.

Here's the problem though: you passionately defend every one of your ideas as if they're as good as the "Gyms of Vana'diel" concept. Here's the naked truth - both the Evolith concepts and the overpowered Great Axe Weaponskills concepts are bad ideas, but you seem unable to differentiate between your good and bad concepts. You adamantly defend all of them - without acknowledging any valid criticisms. What the rest of us view as valid criticisms you view as personal attacks, and that's just not the case. It's counterproductive.

Here's an example:

On the forum's first day, I created a (lulzy) thread in the Black Mage forum: "Job Trait: Auto-Refresh?" (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/643-Job-Trait-Auto-Refresh) In the OP, I argued that Black Mages still suffered from MP problems outside of Abyssea, and that we could use an Auto-Refresh Job Trait to address the problem. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but other posters rightfully disagreed with me and shot down my bad idea.

But...

My bad idea sparked a good idea from another poster! In the thread's second post, Teakwood (along with other posters) argued that /RDM and several new pieces of Refresh gear, MP wasn't nearly the problem that it used to be. He also mentioned something I did not know: all mobs in FFXIV have MP pool for mages to Aspir. He also, correctly, made the distinction between playing BLM around aspirable mobs and non-aspirable mobs and that they're completely different ballgames.

From my bad idea sprung Teakwood's good idea: instead of tacking an Auto-Refresh Job Trait on to BLM, would it be possible to adjust FFXI mobs as to give all of them MP pools? Instead of Auto-Refresh, BLMs could instead make more use of their Aspir spells. This kind of adjustment would also benefit mages other than BLM. I know I'd love to be surrounded by Aspirable mobs at all times!

Kingfury, intelligent posters here will not take you seriously again until you're able let your bad ideas go and leave them to rest. You need to be able to differentiate between good and bad concepts, and you need to be able to identify, and even expand upon, good ideas that evolve from the ashes of your bad ideas. It's perfectly natural, professional, and people would respect you more.

And lastly, your signature does you no favors. It's cocky and arrogant. You're no more a developer than the rest of us.

[kingfury]

@ Eeek: You started okay with this post, but your last line reduced you back to having the "Crabs in the bucket" mentality sense my signature was never(and still isn't) the topic of this thread.

Ok, just so you know, Your "opinion" of my suggestion does not equate to a "Valid Criticism". Understand? Trying to argue your opinion as if it's the final say so does not help to sway me on my opinion. I hear your opinions and give my responses based on my opinions. Make sense?

I wouldn't say you had a "Bad Idea" so much as I would say you were unknowledgeable about what you were suggesting. The posters of that thread you created simply educated you on things you didn't understand. In my case, I KNOW GA's break ws's are terribly inefficient through using them over, and over, and over, and over through the years. I'm not unknowledgeable of that fact at all, so I don't have a "Bad Idea" in regards to suggesting improvements to the ws. Make sense?

I won't address the signature dribble anymore at this point. It's bred from an insecure mentality and really shouldn't be fed anymore.

[SNK]

-----------------
Bah, I've already dealt with this sort of misunderstanding regarding my Sig choice in another thread. Can't help how you feel about things like that.

It's not a bad sig per say but it's a bit overbearing and reeks of a little too much fanboysim. No offense. >_>

[kingfury]

Ughh >< none taken. No amount of words from me can help change the minds of people that choose to not understand /stagger

[Eeek]

Ughh >< none taken. No amount of words from me can help change the minds of people that choose to not understand /stagger

Oh come on! This is totally the pot calling the kettle black.


I wouldn't say you had a "Bad Idea" so much as I would say you were unknowledgeable about what you were suggesting. The posters of that thread you created simply educated you on things you didn't understand.

Woah! You night want to step back, calm yourself, take your foot out of your mouth, and take a look around. Look at my sig. I've been playing BLM for years. Feel free to look up my FFXIAH profile. BLM is there as clear as day.

I see from your profile that your BLM is level 2. Unless you're more knowledgeable about game mechanics than you let on, you have no grounds for calling me out in such a clumsy manner. I'm not foolish enough to claim my BLM as among the best in Vana'diel, much less my own world, but to say that my BLM is anything other than solid would reek of so strongly of false humility as to insult the intelligence of everyone around me.


I won't address the signature dribble anymore at this point. It's bred from an insecure mentality and really shouldn't be fed anymore.

Yes, it should be addressed, and I'll tell you why. It's symbolic of a descent into smarmy douchebaggery.

Your first impression here was a good one. You came off as genuinely nice, eager, and passionate about the game. People genuinely felt good for you wne your idea was the first, if I recall correctly, to see recognition from the Community Team and appear on the Twitter feed. In a sense, it was a victory for all of us players after years of stone silence from SE.

Then the sig appeared. As did subsequent ideas.

That little nod of recognition changed you. No longer humble and genuinely nice, you arrogantly treated your concepts as if they were gold. You passionately and endlessly attacked anyone who disagreed with your concepts or supporting arguments. You lapped up the adoration of your fans while casually dismissing any criticism.

You are Icarus, and you're flying too close to the Sun. Myself, along with other posters, are trying to help you and pull you back from the brink of self-destruction, but in light of our concern, all you do is slap us in the face with arrogant insults claiming that we're "unknowledgeable about what [we were] suggesting" and that our concerns and criticisms are "bred from an insecure mentality."

I'm not quoting those phrases for emphasis. I'm literally quoting your words.

Look, we all want to like the seemingly nice, exuberant Galka with a head full of ideas, but that little nod of recognition from SE has taken a dark toll over the past weeks. You've fallen from "seemingly nice, exuberant Galka with a head full of ideas," to "smarmy douchebag with the overbearing sig," and now you're honestly descending into Krystal/Naturesbeckles territory. We're trying to help pull you back, because we don't want that little recognition from SE to turn you from a nice Galka into a total joke of a poster.

If you embrace the Krystal/Naturesbeckles mentality, then we can never take one of you concepts seriously ever again. All your future threads will be trolled, moderated to hell, and ultimately locked. And that would be a shame.

You used to be such a nice poster.

[kingfury]

@Eeek:
Eeek, show me ONE post where you are trying to say anything constructive to me. Put the link here so I can go back over it and read it twice. You're very 1st post to me had nothing in regards to a "helping tone".

I don't respond nicely to all attacking post if that's what you're asking me to do. I defend myself where I see the need to do so, but I've never reached the degrading level that you and the pack of flamers on this thread have reached when trying to defend their opinions.

And yes, you're quoting what I posted, all while cutting and pasting two separate points together in an effort to validate your point. It's like what the media does everyday. Here, let me fix it back for you right quick:

-The "being unknowledgeable about what you were posting" was in regards to your reference to your BLM refresh thread.
-The "bred from insecure mentality" was in response to your comment about my signature.

And yet you want me to respond in a "happy friendly nature" to your post when you are making a sport out of misconstruing just about 99.99% of the things I post.

If I'm supportive of my posted suggestions, it's because I honestly believe they would be nice additions to the game. Why else would I take time to post them to the Dev Team if I didn't? Everyone is going to have their opinions about ideas posted, but that doesn't make their opinions any better than yours. Ultimately, the Devs have the final say so on these boards to whether or not suggestions can be worth the trouble of implementing, so flame as much you like, you're not the only intended audience to each suggestion posted here.

I can't believe I'm doing this. /sigh For the umteenth time, the feedback I received didn't promote me to create my signature, the fact that I worked on the damn post for weeks creating original artwork and ideas with my own two hands is what did. Who are you to tell me that I shouldn't be proud of the work and time I invested into the post and create a signature to pay tribute to finishing the concept? See what I'm saying? Even after explaining my reasons before, like now, there's nothing more I can say to help you or anyone else see it for what it is. If you already made up in your mind that it's "arrogant" or "gloating" in nature wth else do you want me to say? lol /sigh I know exactly why I made the darn thing, so just because you've formulated your own beliefs as to why it's there means little in hindsight of the truth.

[Eeek]

You went full Krystal, man. Never go full Krystal.

[kingfury]

lol find me a post of yours that's constructive before you pin me with that ^^

Now it genuinely saddens me that you sound as if everything I just said went right over your head :(

If you want to see a happy poster in me, open your mind to what I'm saying. You don't have to like what I'm saying, but at least show me that you are listening to the clear english being typed. I read each line of your post and respond accordingly, hell I just had to fix part of yours Eeek! lol

I'm a very pleasant fellow, just not to flamers and close-minded people that try to belittle others all day.
I've explained multiple time now why I think the Break ws's could use some improvement, only to be met with flamed opinions that "I'm an idiot" or "retarded" because I honestly believe it can be done correctly should the Devs take the time to work on it.

Even off topic stuff like my signature. Even after explaining multiple times as to why I chose to put it there, you're still firing mess that it "comes off as this and that".

I've only been on these boards for so long Eeek(/glances over at my join date), so I find it a little funny when you say, "You use to be such a nice poster" lol. But in this thread alone, I've commended those very flamers that have doubled back after posting completely non related posts and in fact given feedback to the topic at hand. Yeah, I'm right up there with Hitler with that kind of stuff >.> /stagger ^^

[Zyeriis]

Perception outweighs Conception.

You're both "arguing" the same thing, just on different matters. King, there is no denial that people perceive that your signature is inflated with arrogance. You can't stop it, only accept it and change it. If you can't see that, then there's no helping it, you're being closed minded. Also, you are also guilty of false perceptions because you perceive the break weaponskills to not be potent based on years of "eye-balling" it. The concept of the breaks and their effectiveness is there, regardless of whether you can visibly see it or not. So, as I said, perception outweighs conception. The only "improvement" I'd agree with is with the chatlog informing you of when the effect wears off, like it does with other enfeebling weapon skills such as Gekko (silence) and Kasha (paralyze). An enfeebling proc message would be nice as well but not necessary. Other than that, no, just because you haven't noticed it, doesn't mean it's not there. You cannot perceive everything through sight alone.

[kingfury]

Hey Zyerlis

Ok, check this out. The hundreds of players that have been "eyeballing" their Relic ws damage over the years are not wrongly perceiving the fact that their weapons should be bolstered in comparison to the new smexy Empy weapons. You've hear the phrase "What you see is what you get" before right? Well, in their case, all of those players can "SEE" that their ws damage sucks in comparison to the new Emp. ws's.

We're all playing a visual game that has very visual aspects to it's systems. If you repeated to spam your ws's throughout a game session only to find you're doing 100 dmg, would you perceive that something is wrong? Absolutely. If Dia III suddenly stopped displaying the appropriate DoT values by what players can visibly "SEE" from the monster's HP bar, that's all they would have to go on when perceiving if the spell is functioning as intended since you don't see the DoT displayed above the monsters head or in the chat log.

I'm not arguing the same thing with folks like Eeek in regards to my signature by a long shot. My signature has an image that was created from the Gyms post, along with the title of the post, and my name. That it. It does not include text saying, "Now what boieee!" or "This concept is the one that got positive feedback, so read it now!" attached with it. If in fact it did, then I would 1st /slap my own self, and then commence to remove the "gloating" and "arrogant" text from the signature. As it stands, it is simply a cover made to represent something I put a ton of work into. That's not being closed minded, that's the truth.

Thanks for feedback.

[Zyeriis]

...

I'm sorry king, I'm not even going to bother attempting to remotely defend you now. That was an extremely closed minded post that did in no way pertain/respond to what I said. Again, I will say it again, it does not matter what your intent/concept was behind the signature. It is, and will continue to be, perceived as arrogant, you cannot change this. The fact that you cannot even see the plausibility in the perception that it is arrogant is how you are close-minded. Which, need I remind you, is the definition of close-minded: the inability to perceive what some one else does.

[kingfury]

>< jeeze c'mon man!

Here, do me this favor right quick, in the spirit of open-mindedness. Instead of just "saying", "hey King, your signature comes off as arrogant, and if you don't agree, you're closed minded and arrogant!", break down for me in your own words "Why" you feel it comes off this way. I've explained in detail numerous times now why it's there, yet no one has done the opposite of attempting to explain why it comes off that way to them. They just say it does. I just responded to you with a detailed description of everything the signature is and you're calling me close minded ><

I swear to you that I'm not closed minded on the topic of something I actually am in control of like my art.^^ I'm not hard to talk to, just try being a bit more descriptive so we can have a "CONVERSATION " about the topic. I'm talking to you about perception. I responded to your examples based on the Break ws's by giving you some similar examples of why it's still very true that players rely on what they see when playing this game. I responded to you in regards to your comments and perceptions about my signature. I'm on topic here ^^

[CrystalWeapon]

KF your troll sheild is chipping. You used to brush off and ignore troll/flame posts before, and carry on with a chipper attitude. Now it seems like they're baiting you quite effectively with each one. When you let the topic get derailed like this it only hurts the original post and ends up getting the thread locked.

I say this because I don't want you to get trolled into becoming unstable. If your topic is derailed for personal attacks, stick to your guns and get it back on the discussion at hand. The suggestion should be debated not the original poster who made it. Personal attacks should never be used to get a point across on either side of the arguement.

On the note on your sig, if it's really causing this much trouble why not change it? I understand you're proud of your idea and the work it took, but you are a really decent artist. I'm sure you could draw up something else that would show off your talents. If people are perceiving you as arrogant, change your sig and show you aren't. If people are assuming you're being too pushy with your ideas because of previous acknowledgement, then tone it down a bit and be a bit more humble with your suggestions. If trollers are getting under your skin to the point that you start arguing with them, take a step back take a deep breath and put the discussion back on the topic at hand.

The prosac and rainbows I talked about a while back are starting to wear off.

[Fiarlia]

>< jeeze c'mon man!

Here, do me this favor right quick, in the spirit of open-mindedness. Instead of just "saying", "hey King, your signature comes off as arrogant, and if you don't agree, you're closed minded and arrogant!", break down for me in your own words "Why" you feel it comes off this way.

I swear to you that I'm not closed minded on the topic of something I actually am in control of like my art.^^

Eh, I think a portion of people seeing arrogance in your sig is due to the nature of most of your posts as of late in conjunction with a general attitude shift. You come across as arrogant, therefore some of the things you do are considered to be in the same mindset.

That being said, your artwork by itself (the Taru with the sword) is absolutely fantastic (though art boils down to opinion, but that's besides the point). The FFXI logo is also nicely included and adds a nice touch. The "Gyms of Vana'diel" portion starts to push it a little bit; imagine it akin to something like each member of Metallica wearing nothing but Metallica T-Shirts for every single show, interview and/or appearance that they do as a group or individually. However, it's understandable in a sense, as you're not Metallica, and I'm sure that what you dreamed up for the Gyms idea is nowhere near the same level as Metallica or their music (regardless of personal music taste, you can't deny how popular and influential they've been/are), and aside from that, you're proud of it.

The point where it gets much worse when you included the "By Marcus Williams (Kingfury)" part. I'm sure you can see that my previous example would be perceived as "tooting your own horn" (the Metallica example), well, this takes it further. Imagine the lead singer takes a break after every song to introduce the band. Every song. Now imagine during interviews that he started off every sentence with "I'm in Metallica," or that he ended that way. Now imagine that he had tattoo's of himself on himself, multiple. I'm sure you can get the idea.

Now, I'm aware that you don't think you're Metallica, nor do you think your idea(s) are on the same level. I also realize that the analogy isn't perfect, but the basic point should come across.

Look, the prominent posters here know that you came up with the Gym idea, not only that, but the custom signature itself alludes to that fact. There's no reason to have your name in the sig too, especially not your real one. Further, the Community reps are getting to know some of the prominent posters, they've called Karbuncle by a silly nickname that was mentioned once, in an unimportant topic that had a small number of posts. I'm quite positive that if you post any new idea (or comment on others) that you will be recognized by the community and the Reps (perhaps even the GMs?). As such, trying to get recognition in your sig is not only unnecessary, but comes across as arrogant and self-entitled. And on top of that, I'm pretty sure nobody cares about your real name, in fact some people are taking it as a further sign of arrogance and self-entitlement. It seems like not only do you want your posts to be recognized, but you want some of the recognition you've gotten to bleed into your real life.

Now, I understand YOU may not view your signature as such, but this is the way that many people are perceiving it. It DOES come across as arrogant, despite your intentions. However, I think there's a simple way to remedy this. Erase the part of your sig that contains your name/characters name. Also, keep in mind, that if it's intended to be a signature (as in you're signing your artwork, not a forum signature), then you may want to replace it with a typical signature that would typically be put on art that someone is proud of.

Simply changing your sig to either remove your name or replacing it with a "real" signature would help a lot, and help keep it as you describe it to be intended; a good drawing of something that you're proud of. Currently it comes across as screaming "LOOK AT ME EVERYONE! I CREATED THIS! I'M SO AWESOME! SEE MY NAME!? THAT PROVES IT WAS ME!!" Despite how you want it to be perceived, this is how it comes across to a number of people. Should be easy enough to rectify though.

[kingfury]

@ CrystalWeapon:

lmao /kneel + /salute

You're absolutely right man. I should have let it fall to the side at all cost lol. I will say though that they're not just trolling about a suggestion, it's something I'm very passionate about which happens to be my art. My art is like my kids, and it's second nature to want to defend it I suppose.

I hear you in regards to just changing the thing, but do you really believe the likes of the folks that are having a piss fight over it will really all of a sudden change their tone if I did? If one person honestly gave me a detailed, and valid reason as to how my art is coming off in such a way in hindsight of everything I've defended it with, then I will talk seriously about it. That's the thing with this kind of thing though, NO ONE has >< Rewarding such behavior is very hard for me when the reasons are born from the wrong sources.

Thanks friend for the /check /salute

[Zyeriis]

If some one really wanted to do "troll" you, they wouldn't be here arguing, they'd be asking a Moderator to have your sig removed because it breaks the forum rules. I don't think you realize that giving away personal information (your name) is against the rules of the board but your name is in your signature. That's hardly the point though. Honestly, I've been starting to question if this thread as just an elaborate troll in the past 2 pages by you, for the sheer unwillingness to accept other people's perceptions. The fact that you cannot perceive what we perceive about your signature shows that no amount of explaining will do any good at this point. So, asking us to explain our personal perceptions on the matter is silly and at best a diversionary tactic.

Note, that I wasn't originally under the perception that you are completely arrogant but, I'm certainly getting there. It does have nothing to do with the topic (of which I tried to talk to you about and even offered a solution recently, which you ignored) but, your inability to just accept it and move on is ridiculous. That, itself, is arrogance: your inability to say there's any possibility that you were wrong. Your art is perceived as arrogant, get over it, unless you wish to continue to prove that perception right.

Hell, I've been trying to end this stupidity for awhile now, wondering when some one (any one) is going to get the hint instead of being stubborn about something as silly as a signature (arrogant or not). Need be reminded that the whole "arrogant" thing started because some one misused the word while trying to call some one ignorant, which is completely different (and ignorant in and of itself, lol irony).

[kingfury]

@ Fiarlia:

BOOM!! And there you have it folks! Good o'l communication ^^ Thanks Fiarlia /bow and for you, I'll gladly make that change since it was indeed meant to come off that way(the artistic signing of a piece of work) :D

In my art career, I've used both types of signatures, the natural one and the more "official styled" one to sign my work. I'll admit I don't frequently invest as much work into message boards, and since this one happens to be the "Official" message board for FFXI, I chose to run with the more official styled signature. Incredibly easy fix, and one that is perfectly compromising. Thank you for the compliments to my art, and for shining some light on the subject. /salute.

[kingfury]

@ Zyeriis:

I gotcha man. Thanks. I was however requesting something more along the lines of what Fiarlia communicated in terms of "open-minded" description, but thanks all the same. Clear, level-headed communication is what got the signature altered.

[CrystalWeapon]

@ CrystalWeapon:

lmao /kneel + /salute

You're absolutely right man. I should have let it fall to the side at all cost lol. I will say though that they're not just trolling about a suggestion, it's something I'm very passionate about which happens to be my art. My art is like my kids, and it's second nature to want to defend it I suppose.

I hear you in regards to just changing the thing, but do you really believe the likes of the folks that are having a piss fight over it will really all of a sudden change their tone if I did? If one person honestly gave me a detailed, and valid reason as to how my art is coming off in such a way in hindsight of everything I've defended it with, then I will talk seriously about it. That's the thing with this kind of thing though, NO ONE has >< Rewarding such behavior is very hard for me when the reasons are born from the wrong sources.

Thanks friend for the /check /salute

Fiarlia gave a pretty detailed reason as to why it would come as arrogant. I know you don't mean it to, but it does slightly come off as showoffish to having a suggestion that got attentioned highlighted in your signature. Yes trolls will be trollin regardless of what you do, but the sig does act like a gigantic bullseye strapped to your back.

I understand being proud of your art, I'm an artist myself. My medium is matte board with prisma colors over digital. I would get pissed if someone insulted or tried to steal my art, but the art isn't the point of arguement they're throwing at you. They're arguing that it shouldn't come with the whole "Gyms of Vana'Diel by Marcus Williams (Kingfury)". The sig would be less "In your face" and more modest if it were just a picture scaled down from the suggestion without the text.

A suggestion for posting that would get you less trolls would be, go in with an attitude of "this would be nice to change" over "this should be changed". I do not mean this in an insulting way, but textwise your posts have changed from the former to the latter. I see it as confidence over arrogance, but it can be percieved both ways.

Sorry that I have nothing to add to the actual OP at hand, but I wanted to chime in hoping that you don't get trolled to the point that you start yelling at the community like those trolled before you. I also wanted to try to give some insight as to why they are attacking you. Pride, arrogance, confidence tend to all come across the same way in plain text.

[Melodicya]

Hello Everyone!

While we appreciate the civil discussion, a number of posts recently made have been unrelated to the purpose of the forum and thread. Please follow the forum rules when making posts for a trouble-free and productive exchange of information.

Please visit the following page for reference on the forum guideline:

FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1

Thank you!

[kingfury]

Fiarlia gave a pretty detailed reason as to why it would come as arrogant.
--------------
Yep, I've given him/her props for being descriptive ^^ Thanks again.

[kingfury]

Hello Everyone!
While we appreciate the civil discussion, a number of posts recently made have been unrelated to the purpose of the forum and thread. Please follow the forum rules when making posts for a trouble-free and productive exchange of information.
Please visit the following page for reference on the forum guideline:
FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1
Thank you!
----------------
Hate to have you guys dawning your red armor for such a thing ><; Hopefully the issue has been rectified ^^ /

[wish12oz]

This is a fix that would be completely useless and a waste of time, good WARs would still spam Ukko's regardless, so no thanks to this idea, let's have SE to work on useful stuff.

[kingfury]

This is a fix that would be completely useless and a waste of time, good WARs would still spam Ukko's regardless, so no thanks to this idea, let's have SE to work on useful stuff.
-------------
Talked about this a few post back ^^ It's indeed a tragic game dynamic that I'm sure wasn't the intension by the Dev Team. The dependency of your most powerful ws's in your arsenal to be the most effective in both offensive and defensive situations.

A good WAR, or player for that matter, understands both offense and defense in this game and how to balance both based on the situation in front of them. Trying to run in and do high amounts of damage ALL the time for every situation is a quick way of getting yourself K.O.'d most of the time. Strategy is what is bred from our weapon skills and Job abilities. Now imagine for a moment that the Break ws's used on GA were just as effective now at lvl 90 as they were the day a player received them. Wouldn't that breed more strategy during battle vs trying to only do the most melee damage? As you know, some monsters in this game just don't accept that type of strategy."

[noodles355]

If you want to physically see the results of a full break WS then run a parser. Eye-balling results is never an accurate means to study something in FFXI concidering how marginal most upgrades are.

For example, I play dragoon. My WS in abyssea average anywhere between 2500 to 5000 damage. However, it appears everytime I use Angon, which lowers the mob's defence by 20%, my WS damage looks to be lower. Why's this? Is it because Angon actually somehow lowers the damage output of my Drakesbane? No it's not, it's just that I have gotten unlucky and whilst having many triple-attacked Drakesbane with lots of crits, on the few occasions I use angon I don't get a teiple attack proc and only a few of the hits critical.

However, if I was to just continue to eye-ball it without thinking, then the simple conclusion would be that Angon is making my WS weaker.
But I know full well that's not the case. The only reason my highest dmage angon WS was lower than my highest damage non-angon WS on the same mob is luck.

You see? Eye-balling numbers in the chatlog is very rarely an accurate means to study something. This works both ways: by eye-balling the chatlog I may think a certain circumstance is upping/lowering my damage when it's actually not, and likewise I may think a certain buff or ability is not increasing/lowering my damage output when it infact is. With the way FFXI works with the random-number-generator the only way to accurately study something's increase is to parse it over a significant period or time and compare the average results over those time periods (or whatever other scale would be best to use, number of mobs etc).

You say "I want to be able to see the difference in the chatlog after using Full Break" I say: Go download and run a parser. Kill the same mobs for a great period of time with full break, and then repeat the same test with Raging Rush or Ukko's or whatever you normally use. Compare the average results between the two parses, you will see your average melee strike damage has risen slightly in the full break setup.

[wish12oz]

A good WAR knows that killing stuff faster has better results then killing slower and making the mob weaker, you take the same amount of damage and get the same drops, but one way is faster. This is still a useless idea and a waste of SE's time, no matter how you look at it.

EDIT: if the WAR is dieing he should get better DT gear or a better WHM. Breaks were also never useful or good.

[kingfury]

A good WAR knows that killing stuff faster has better results then killing slower and making the mob weaker, you take the same amount of damage and get the same drops, but one way is faster. This is still a useless idea and a waste of SE's time, no matter how you look at it.
-------------
I gotcha. Except of course when you're fighting certain types of NMs that can one shot you if in front of it trying to melee. What my quote was saying, is that not every monsters accepts the "zerg it to death" strategy. Some NMs warrant a "slow and steady" battle tactic, especially depending on how many party members you have.


EDIT: if the WAR is dieing he should get better DT gear or a better WHM. Breaks were also never useful or good.
---------------
Again, this doesn't really help if you just got one-shotted in the face from being inside when you should've been /away ^^ That, and I'm glad you agree with the OP / I was suggesting there were monsters that you could actually use these Break ws's on at low levels and possibly see some results. Those results were not that good, but it was possible to at least see them.

[wish12oz]

Nothing can 1 shot you as the game is right now, sorry to disappoint you, your argument holds no water.

[kingfury]

Nothing can 1 shot you as the game is right now, sorry to disappoint you, your argument holds no water.
----------
Say wha? You play FFXI online right? Have you fought many HNMs or been to Abyssea at all? Have you ever built up Tonberry Rancor and forgot to wipe it clean, then been hit with "Everyone's Grudge" or "Everyone's Rancor"? I had to look up his name right quick, but Mictlantecuhtli can drain every bit of HP you have and then some. I grabbed this from the wiki right fast, but these are low numbers compared to what I've seen just this one NM do to players. Ever fought Tefenet?

-"Drain is tremendously powerful, drained 1598 + breaking high stoneskin."
- "Drain. Hit me for 2107 damage"

[Mrbeansman]

----------
Say wha? You play FFXI online right? Have you fought many HNMs or been to Abyssea at all? Have you ever built up Tonberry Rancor and forgot to wipe it clean, then been hit with "Everyone's Grudge" or "Everyone's Rancor"? I had to look up his name right quick, but Mictlantecuhtli can drain every bit of HP you have and then some. I grabbed this from the wiki right fast, but these are low numbers compared to what I've seen just this one NM do to players.

"Drain is tremendously powerful, drained 1598 + breaking high stoneskin."

The wiki makes every mob sound like the anti christ.

[kingfury]

lol true, but seriously I'm living witness to being one shotted by this NM... and I'm a Galka ><; He has the ability to Drain for stupid amounts. That, and if you've never been hit by "Everyone's Rancor" while having some tonberry hate tide around your neck by accident, go give it a try ><

[Sanjurio]

The only reason to get 1shotted by Drain from Mict is either, lack of ShellV or It's MAB wasn't dispelled before it cast Drain, both just means your mage sucks as you need to get a new one.

[Mirage]

So what's wrong with his signature anyway? I don't really get it.

Can't everyone just fucking drop the sig issue in this thread and talk about how Ultra Super Turbo Fullest of all Breaks is a bad idea.

[kingfury]

@ Mirage:
Shhh, keep it down ^^ Thanks to a level headed player that harnesses the ability to use descriptive writing without having to tear people down, I made some quick edits to my sig that hopefully put the whole thing to rest... like forever.^^

And lol at the last line >< lol

[kingfury]

The only reason to get 1shotted by Drain from Mict is either, lack of ShellV or It's MAB wasn't dispelled before it cast Drain, both just means your mage sucks as you need to get a new one.
--------
Of course, of course ^^ The point is, that it can happen in this game is all. That's like saying the only reason I got one-shotted from Tefenet is because I was accidentally facing it... on accident >< But yeah these things happen all the time. ^^

[noodles355]

If you got one-shotted with a 1700-2000 damage spell as a Galka then you need to go get all your Merit Abyssites.

[TybudX]

Take Berserk for instance. It's a level 15 JA that still has use at level 90. That's scaleability right there lol, and it's as it should be as far as I'm concerned. Weaponskills should be just as scaleable right?

You can always stop using Berserk, and instead of dropping a real WS use Armor Break. Now you are getting the effective 25% attack boost without losing any defense, so no more being one shotted in unrealistic scenarios! Problem solved.

[kingfury]

@ Noodles:
Nah, remember I said those were low numbers that I found on the wiki, He drained the crap outta me for far more than that as well as other party members.

[kingfury]

@ TybudX:
Well in terms of things like Everyone's Rancor were if you're stuck in a ws animation like raging rush and can't run for your life before those evil Tonberry NMs cast it on ya, none of that good strategy will do you much good >< I think the last time I got hit was for over 5k dmg. I proceeded to the Temple of Uggalepih later that night to remove my tonberry hate /stagger

[TybudX]

You can move all over the place during your WS animation, unless you don't gear swap. Also, Everyone's Rancor/Grudge has what to do with any of the Break WSs? They do a set amount of damage, based on how many of a particular mob family you have killed. They're also magic based, as were the other situations you brought up, so I fail to see what they have to do with the topic.

[kingfury]

@ TybudX:

You must've missed it. We got started talking about being one shotted briefly in response to the few post by Wish12. It started on the last page (15). Here:


Nothing can 1 shot you as the game is right now, sorry to disappoint you, your argument holds no water.

[Fiarlia]

Completely unrelated, but that new sig is much much much much much much much better.

[kingfury]

@ Fiarlia:
^^ Thanks /salute.

[TybudX]

It helps when you post things in context:


EDIT: if the WAR is dieing he should get better DT gear or a better WHM. Breaks were also never useful or good.
---------------
Again, this doesn't really help if you just got one-shotted in the face from being inside when you should've been /away

You brought up being one-shotted as a defense for somehow... something? I really don't know what you were getting at, other than making excuses for playing bad and trying to defend the use of 'slow and steady battle tactics'. I assume you mean using terrible weapon skills, like the break line of great axe WSs? Or did you just bring that up for no reason?

Why do you keep bringing up people saying those WSs are bad to mean they are defending your position in some way? Break WSs sucking was never an issue; your terrible idea to try fixing them is what this thread is all about.

[kingfury]

@ TybudX:
Uhh... wha? Probably should just read the whole thing so you don't jumble up the conversation like that. I'm not sure how to respond to the 1st half other than try reading those post again.

Why would I want to fix them if they didn't suck?... /points to the thread topic way up there. The 1st line in the OP refers to how disappointing the ws's have always been to me, so if someone states that they also feel these ws's indeed are terrible... they are agreeing with me. ~.^

[TybudX]

You: Sometimes good players kill things slow because their mages suck.
wish12oz: No, you are better off killing quickly so there is less time/chances for things to go wrong
You: Some mobs can one shot you.

I read the whole thing, and several posts before and after it. I read them a couple times, which is usually the case with your posts. It's pretty straight forward, you tried to make a point that has no basis in reality, got shot down for it, and used a poor argument to back it up.

Agreeing with you that break WSs suck =/= agreeing with you that they should be changed. Nobody here is supporting your idea in the slightest.

[kingfury]

Just had a thought...

Another possibility:

-What if, after inflicting a set amount/percentage of a particular enfeeble at the point of striking a target with one of the 4 Break weaponskills, they then worked similar to how DNC's Steps function? For anyone that doesn't know about how Steps works:
-Steps are used to enfeeble an enemy, while at the same time generating the Finishing Moves required to perform Flourishes. The enfeebling effects produced by Steps can be stacked up to five times. The more times an effect is stacked, the more powerful it becomes.
Perhaps directly after you use a Break weaponskill, Armor Break for instance, the more you land successful melee hits on the target the more bolstered your melee damage would become. The ws would still cause some damage upon using it, but after inflicting the initial enfeebling effect, it would have a bolstering of stats effect so the concept of the enfeeble can become more apparent over time. It could still of course have a determined duration window of effect, but once it's effect duration has reached it's end and worn off the bolstered damage would also disappear. It could even have the "Defense down" effect animation added to each melee hit to the target similar to how most additional effect enfeebling weapons function. The same goes for the other corresponding ws's.

So then, Shield break once landed on a high evasion monster would see a percentage drop to it's evasion and improve Accuracy to the players over the course of the user successfully landing hits on the target. So this would bolster +Accuracy per successful melee hit to all party members within the area of effect.

[noodles355]

Agreeing with you that break WSs suck =/= agreeing with you that they should be changed.I think kingfury is unable to comprehend this statement. I believe I've used the same argument with him in the past. Somehow he believe agreeing with his statement of the problem means you agree with his solution to the problem.

Because of course, it's impossible to agree with you that your opening statement of "Break WS suck" and yet disagree with your solution to fix this problem.

Hey kingfury. Theft is a problem in the United Kingdom. I believe to fix this problem everyone who steals should be immidiately killed without trial, what they stole is irrelevant, whether it's a candy bar or a car.

Theft is a problem in the United Kingdom, this is a fact. You will agree with this fact. So as you agree with that part of my post then surely you must agree with everything I wrote in this post and must also believe everyone who steals a candy bar should be killed?
No, of course you don't.

[Mirage]

War is the strongest DD in the damned game, we shouldn't get more buffs, not until other jobs that actually need them do. EOD.

[kingfury]

You: Sometimes good players kill things slow because their mages suck.
wish12oz: No, you are better off killing quickly so there is less time/chances for things to go wrong
You: Some mobs can one shot you.
I read the whole thing, and several posts before and after it. I read them a couple times, which is usually the case with your posts. It's pretty straight forward, you tried to make a point that has no basis in reality, got shot down for it, and used a poor argument to back it up.
Agreeing with you that break WSs suck =/= agreeing with you that they should be changed. Nobody here is supporting your idea in the slightest.
--------------
@.@ people like you worry me.

I didn't say that agreeing with me that the ws's suck equated to them agreeing with the fact they needed to be altered... just that they agreed the ws's suck. Are you purposely trying to find ways to make me sound wrong in order to make yourself sound right? Because this sort of thing is just scary.

[kingfury]

@ Noodles:
lol why on earth are you guys still on this thread if all you are doing is trying to misconstrue and alter the things I say?! I'm beginning to think this has become some strange form of amusement for you @.@;

Constructive Suggestions and comments on the topic eh, or go poke sticks at another thread where someone can be mad with you lol /shoo now

[kingfury]

War is the strongest DD in the damned game, we shouldn't get more buffs, not until other jobs that actually need them do. EOD.
----------
Since this is in fact related to the topic at hand indirectly, I really want to explore this mentality for a second. I've heard it a dozen times now since being on these boards, and I really think people believe that WAR should not get anything new ever again all the way up to 99 /stagger.

What do you think WAR should get between now and 99? And why or why not.

[kingfury]

----------
Yikes! I'm just gonna let you believe whatever you want to believe /backs away slowly with his hands raised in a calming manner

[Zyeriis]

Pumping the arrogance back into the thread are we? Terrific, that was very constructive.

[kingfury]

Pumping the arrogance back into the thread are we? Terrific, that was very constructive.
---------
@.@ I'm waving my white flag man, I want none of that kooky stuff!

[noodles355]

Constructive Suggestions and commentsYou have proved time and time again that constructive criticism doesn't work for you.

[kingfury]

Give it a try Noodles this very next post. Lets see how it looks coming from you. Just try me. ^^

[noodles355]

If you want to physically see the results of a full break WS then run a parser. Eye-balling results is never an accurate means to study something in FFXI concidering how marginal most upgrades are.

For example, I play dragoon. My WS in abyssea average anywhere between 2500 to 5000 damage. However, it appears everytime I use Angon, which lowers the mob's defence by 20%, my WS damage looks to be lower. Why's this? Is it because Angon actually somehow lowers the damage output of my Drakesbane? No it's not, it's just that I have gotten unlucky and whilst having many triple-attacked Drakesbane with lots of crits, on the few occasions I use angon I don't get a teiple attack proc and only a few of the hits critical.

However, if I was to just continue to eye-ball it without thinking, then the simple conclusion would be that Angon is making my WS weaker.
But I know full well that's not the case. The only reason my highest dmage angon WS was lower than my highest damage non-angon WS on the same mob is luck.

You see? Eye-balling numbers in the chatlog is very rarely an accurate means to study something. This works both ways: by eye-balling the chatlog I may think a certain circumstance is upping/lowering my damage when it's actually not, and likewise I may think a certain buff or ability is not increasing/lowering my damage output when it infact is. With the way FFXI works with the random-number-generator the only way to accurately study something's increase is to parse it over a significant period or time and compare the average results over those time periods (or whatever other scale would be best to use, number of mobs etc).

You say "I want to be able to see the difference in the chatlog after using Full Break" I say: Go download and run a parser. Kill the same mobs for a great period of time with full break, and then repeat the same test with Raging Rush or Ukko's or whatever you normally use. Compare the average results between the two parses, you will see your average melee strike damage has risen slightly in the full break setup.
これ。どういたしまして。

[kingfury]

@ Noodles:

"これ。どういたしまして。"
Translation: "Hey, you are welcome don't mention it not at all" I hope that's right.^^

Well it's constructive, I'll give you that ^^ /
But I meant "constructive" in terms of ideas that would actually be usable for the Dev Team as feedback to either consider or not consider working on revising these 4 GA ws's in question. Plus, I play on a console, so I wouldn't be able to take that advice, and would much rather see the Devs fix it officially for everyone to enjoy :)

[noodles355]

Constructive criticism is giving you advice to either buff your idea or help you realise why it isn't needed and provide another means to achieve your goal.

You wanted to see a visable change after using the Break weaponskills, I provided you a means to see a visable change. I don't have anything to say to help your idea of changing the WS because I believe they shouldn't be changed. What I prviously stated was that the amount of Defence down you were asking for the WS to provide was a completely unreasonable amount and could provide problems for other jobs.

Your problem is that because so many people are fed up with your posts and responses and your closed-mindedness, a large number of people have given up trying to give you polite constructive feedback because you tend to ignore it. What this means is that more often than not, when someone does actually post something constructive you immidiately interpret it as otherwise, posting more poor responses and continuing the downwards spiral of your demise. Sadly this is the case and why the majority of posters no longer respect 90% of what you say. お前はもう死んでいる。

[Mirage]

----------
Since this is in fact related to the topic at hand indirectly, I really want to explore this mentality for a second. I've heard it a dozen times now since being on these boards, and I really think people believe that WAR should not get anything new ever again all the way up to 99 /stagger.

What do you think WAR should get between now and 99? And why or why not.
War has gotten lots of things between 75 and 90. Now at 90, it would be fine if war didn't get a lot more powerful stuff until other jobs have caught up with us.

What war gets from 91-99 can be left for when that level cap is implemented. It probably won't be this.

[kingfury]

Whoa! where did all that come from?! @.@ you got all that from me saying this?:

"Well it's constructive, I'll give you that ^^ /
But I meant "constructive" in terms of ideas that would actually be usable for the Dev Team as feedback to either consider or not consider working on revising these 4 GA ws's in question. Plus, I play on a console, so I wouldn't be able to take that advice, and would much rather see the Devs fix it officially for everyone to enjoy"

Who is this majority of posters you speak of? The "so many people" you're talking about? I haven't really had that many run-ins with flamers on these boards since March o.o; Have you really been that damaged by my opinions and stances on my suggestions throughout my threads Noodles? Like, Really? We've had some heated convo's in the past, but it was all brought out by you flaming like a mad person ^^

In an effort to keep the flame down on this thread though, I'm going to just tap out before you go any further with this campaign of yours. I'm not asking for anyone to "respect" my suggestions on these boards, so if you don't wish to comment on anything I post for fear that I'm as closed minded as you say, by all means exercise that good o'l freedom to not click on it. My feelings wont be hurt in the slightest if you save yourself a flaming session, trust me.

Thanks for the feedback Noodles

[kingfury]

War has gotten lots of things between 75 and 90. Now at 90, it would be fine if war didn't get a lot more powerful stuff until other jobs have caught up with us.

What war gets from 91-99 can be left for when that level cap is implemented. It probably won't be this.
---------------
Why even add this last part lol It may not be this, but who knows.

We didn't get any more than anyone one else got in terms of abilities and ws's did we?

[Rambus]

very annoyed:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4840-To-the-posters-of-this-fourm-understand-constructive-criticism

[noodles355]

Ukko's Fury is a significantly bigger boost than Camlaan's Tormen, so I would say you did.

[Mirage]

---------------
Why even add this last part lol It may not be this, but who knows.

We didn't get any more than anyone one else got in terms of abilities and ws's did we?

What we got was overall stronger than what most other DDs got. We got blood rage for example, which is much better than anything drk got, even though drk needed buffs way more than war did.

[Zyeriis]

---------------
Why even add this last part lol It may not be this, but who knows.

We didn't get any more than anyone one else got in terms of abilities and ws's did we?

Warrior got...
78 Critical Attack Bonus
80 Shield Mastery
80 Shield Defense Bonus
81 Resist Virus V
84 Fencer IV
86 Defense Bonus II
90 Critical Attack Bonus II
77 Restraint
87 Blood Rage

Samurai got...

77 Sengikori
87 Hamanoha (lolwut?)
78 Skillchain Bonus

Dragoon got...

77 Spirit Jump
85 Soul Jump
87 Dragon Breaker (lolwut?)
78 Accuracy Bonus III
85 Critical Defense Bonus

Dark Knight got...

78 Nether Void
87 Arcane Crest (lolwut?)
76 Attack Bonus V
84 Occult Acumen IV
85 Critical Attack Bonus
88 Tactical Parry

Ranger got...

79 Double Shot
87 Bounty Shot
76 Accuracy Bonus V
78 True Shot
80 Conserve TP
81 Resist Poison V
90 Rapid Shot II

Going to stop there. Who got more? (Lol, Tachi: Ageha)

[kingfury]

very annoyed:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4840-To-the-posters-of-this-fourm-understand-constructive-criticism
-----------
Yeah, I realize now that it's apart of the whole message board universe Rambus. I'll have to pick out the post that are actually promoting constructive conversation devoid of the tear downs and just /ignorpet the flame from now on. I allowed the topic to get way off track trying to deal with too many poop convo's. I think I got the hang of it now though ^^

[Rambus]

Warrior got...
78 Critical Attack Bonus
80 Shield Mastery
80 Shield Defense Bonus
81 Resist Virus V
84 Fencer IV
86 Defense Bonus II
90 Critical Attack Bonus II
77 Restraint
87 Blood Rage

Samurai got...

77 Sengikori
87 Hamanoha (lolwut?)
78 Skillchain Bonus

Dragoon got...

77 Spirit Jump
85 Soul Jump
87 Dragon Breaker (lolwut?)
78 Accuracy Bonus III
85 Critical Defense Bonus

Dark Knight got...

78 Nether Void
87 Arcane Crest (lolwut?)
76 Attack Bonus V
84 Occult Acumen IV
85 Critical Attack Bonus
88 Tactical Parry

Ranger got...

79 Double Shot
87 Bounty Shot
76 Accuracy Bonus V
78 True Shot
80 Conserve TP
81 Resist Poison V
90 Rapid Shot II

Going to stop there. Who got more? (Lol, Tachi: Ageha)

your point is correct but is not relevant to the original topic.
I do not care who got more of what, it should not scare people giving suggestions.

[kingfury]

Well stuff that we actually get use out of ><

Warrior got...
78 Critical Attack Bonus
80 Shield Mastery
80 Shield Defense Bonus
81 Resist Virus V
84 Fencer IV
86 Defense Bonus II
90 Critical Attack Bonus II
77 Restraint
87 Blood Rage

I'd say we got 5 "useful" things from that list. The stuff in orange is donkey fodder.

[kingfury]

your point is correct but is not relevant to the original topic.
I do not care who got more of what, it should not scare people giving suggestions.
--------------
Nah Rambus, WAR getting more enhancements is indirectly relevant to the OP since WAR would benefit from the GA's revisions.

I asked for some clarification on the idea that WAR's shouldn't get any more improvements.

[noodles355]

In terms of DD, warrior got Blood Rage, Critical Attack Bonus II, Ukko's Fury and Fell Cleave. Blood Rage and Critical Attack Bonus traits provide a significant increase to your damage. As do the two weapon skills.

In comparison, Samurai got Sengikori, Skillchain Bonus and Tachi: Fudo. Out of which only the latter increases it's damage significantly (due to the lack of skillchains performed).

[Zyeriis]

Rambus, I know it's irrelevant, but he asked. I wasn't the one who brought it up but I agree that WAR hardly needs a buff.


Well stuff that we actually get use out of ><

Warrior got...
78 Critical Attack Bonus
80 Shield Mastery
80 Shield Defense Bonus
81 Resist Virus V
84 Fencer IV
86 Defense Bonus II
90 Critical Attack Bonus II
77 Restraint
87 Blood Rage

I'd say we got 5 "useful" things from that list. The stuff in orange is donkey fodder.
Now go do that with what the other jobs got. Don't forget to calculate in that Samurai got bsed even more when they gave sekka to sub job levels.

Samurai gets 2, very weak boosts (skillchain dmg+).
Warrior gets 5 boosts, most of which are excellent.
Dragoon gets 3-4 boosts (depending on whether you view crit. def. + as good), most of which are excellent (it's a close second).
Dark Knight gets 2 boosts.
Ranger got 5 decent boosts but it's RNG and ranged attacks take way too much time.

[kingfury]

What we got was overall stronger than what most other DDs got. We got blood rage for example, which is much better than anything drk got, even though drk needed buffs way more than war did.
-------------
I'd say we were stronger all along, but that'd be my bias opinion ^^

I think the next update will usher in even more power to WARs regardless of if we get any new abilities or not since we'll have more gear to choose from, new Merit points to plug in, and new Weapons and such. I'm not sure how other Jobs that are feeling this power distinction in reference to WAR will fair in the coming updates leading up to 99, but strength and powerful JA's will continue to set us apart.

[kingfury]

Rambus, I know it's irrelevant, but he asked. I wasn't the one who brought it up but I agree that WAR hardly needs a buff.
Now go do that with what the other jobs got. Don't forget to calculate in that Samurai got bsed even more when they gave sekka to sub job levels.
Samurai gets 2, very weak boosts (skillchain dmg+).
Warrior gets 5 boosts, most of which are excellent.
Dragoon gets 3-4 boosts (depending on whether you view crit. def. + as good), most of which are excellent (it's a close second).
Dark Knight gets 2 boosts.
Ranger got 5 decent boosts but it's RNG and ranged attacks take way too much time.
----------------
Okay, Fair enough. I agree with you guys then that the other DD jobs could use a few more JA's and JT's to further enhance their duties as DD's.

Now in terms of WS's, would it really insult other jobs if these Break ws's were adjusted? Especially since it's a WS that has shared effects for party members. Actually, shouldn't we be saying Blood Rage should be considered a "Shared" JA since other DD's in the party gain the same benefits?

[Fiarlia]

----------------
Okay, Fair enough. I agree with you guys then that the other DD jobs could use a few more JA's and JT's to further enhance their duties as DD's.

Now in terms of WS's, would it really insult other jobs if these Break ws's were adjusted?

It's not a matter of insulting other jobs. It's a matter of it being incredibly unlikely that they could be buffed without causing an imbalance of some kind.

For a few quick examples, I'll reiterate what others have said, though in a different manner.

1) Boost the damage done by the Weaponskills without touching the "break" effects. This isn't a good idea, there's already good WS's that a WAR has access to, and I'm not even talking about Ukko's. There's plenty of options, rendering this a fairly poor choice. If they did this, they'd have to revamp all the older WS's that other jobs get, or it'll fall back to the "WAR or GTFO" mentality in the lower levels until the various jobs start gaining access to the better WS's you get nearer end-level. If they do buff all the other WS's to be able to compete, then what's the point? You're supposed to get more powerful as you level up, not get end-game-calibur WS's right off the bat. Not to mention it'd render (offensive) magic even more useless unless it too got a boost. Regardless of how it's handled, it would create imbalance, either between jobs or in the games workings themselves.

2) Enhance the "Break" effect only. As has been said before, it's generally a better idea to get a monster dead as soon as possible (at least on current mobs - and likely future ones too) rather than waste the 100(+) TP to do a debuff that will (likely) result in marginal gains. Why do I say the gains will be marginal? Because while allowing each DD to do a bit more damage per hit or hit more often or get hit for less (etc) will likely not result in a mob being dead any faster. If it does, it wouldn't by by any extreme amount, and if something does hit the fan, it's probably better to have it being closer to dead than having it debuffed with less people able to hit it (addressing your one-shot scenario). Besides, with the amount of damage that the (good) weaponskills do, the buff would have to be astronomical to make it worth it and even try to come out even with the current tactics. This brings me to a subpoint.

2a) If they buff the "Break" effects without adjusting the mobs, and it's buffed enough to actually be worth using over Ukko's, then every group will have a WAR with it (including outside Abyssea) simply to make things easier and faster. This then results in a return to the point I made in -1- about game/job balance.

2b) If they buff the "Break" effects AND adjust the mobs or add new ones to compensate, these new mobs would likely be impossible to do without a WAR because anybody else will get hit too hard, not hit hard enough, have horrible accuracy and so on and so forth. This would basically be required in order to make the WS's "worthwhile" without making them overpowered. This, again falls back to the point in -1- as it would create an imbalance, though this time it would be worse, not only is a WAR more desirable and better, but every other DD would be completely useless if you did not have one. This also encroaches on the territory of triggering weaknesses in Abyssea, though without the randomness (unless a mob is programmed to have one random buff and only the appropriate Break WS will dispel it or bring it to a reasonable level). While that idea might sound cool, it's been done and would still create an imbalance.

And if you don't understand (part of) the imbalance I'm talking about, it already exists in another form. The current kings of the game are BLM, BLU, MNK, NIN, WAR and WHM because that's all you need to get every proc. Nobody else is "desired." And while I acknowledge it's possible to succeed with other jobs or missing some of the kings I mentioned, you have to acknowledge that I'm right about jobs being discriminated against. If you need convincing, go read the forums, people bitch and complain like crazy about it.

And besides everything else I stated above, I and many others (judging by this thread), would much rather SE spend their time working on new content or fixing things that are more important than trying to figure out how to possibly balance all the changes that would come from any of the suggested fixes, as well as any of the ones that have not been proposed that they could conjure up.

It's nice that you want to change things for the better. But all in all, some things aren't worth it, or aren't realistically possible, or as easy as one would initially imagine. It'd be best to try and "pick your battles," so to speak. That's not to say that every thread needs to be a battle, but try focusing your energies on stuff that's actually important and relevant, or at the very least fairly easy to fix. And if you make a mistake (I assume you didn't think of all the ramifications the changes to the Break WS's would have [other jobs, other WS's, mobs, dependence on WAR and further job segregation to name a few]) and have it pointed out to you, accept it and move on. And just because someone may say something in a way that you find slightly (or vastly) offensive, it doesn't always mean they're trolling or wrong. Especially wrong.

[Tamarsamar]

Actually, shouldn't we be saying Blood Rage should be considered a "Shared" JA since other DD's in the party gain the same benefits?

Sure, why not! Though, I have no idea why any idea why anybody invites Bards, since all they have are "shared spells" anyway . . .

[Fiarlia]

Also, again, let me reiterate that it was great of you to change your sig. Comes across in a much better light and it's no longer irritating and annoying to see after every post. I'm sure a lot of other people appreciate it as well.

Also, on top of that it just looks more cool now.

[Rambus]

2a) If they buff the "Break" effects without adjusting the mobs, and it's buffed enough to actually be worth using over Ukko's, then every group will have a WAR with it (including outside Abyssea) simply to make things easier and faster. This then results in a return to the point I made in -1- about game/job balance.

I have an issue with this, why you think people take thf for zerg in old days? it was more then TH and it allowed you not to relay on Madrigal. same with bringing a drg with for just in case you are not caped your attack vs def.

war was respectable for a long time ( I do not remember what war was like when it was loled at, i was mage back then so i was not aware of everything).

now one might say "oh it hurts DRG use", but what if you do not have a drg?

I do not see the "balance issue" with buffing war enough where it can really make use of stat down ws time to time. if not why make them useless? why have them exist?

I really have to tell you, those brake ws back in the 10's and 20s made HUGE difference, loldrk that was scythe that level, etc.

and for "i wish there was pm so i did not have to make off topic comment, comment"

why do you care about his sig and what is the difference? just because his name looks like a signature over print? i don’t get it

[kingfury]

Also, again, let me reiterate that it was great of you to change your sig. Comes across in a much better light and it's no longer irritating and annoying to see after every post. I'm sure a lot of other people appreciate it as well.
Also, on top of that it just looks more cool now.
-------------
/kneel Thanks to you again for taking a mature approach to explaining the problem from your point of view. ^^ /salute

[Fiarlia]

It's not a point of view. I simply explained it without using the math and tone that some others did, but it makes their statements no less correct or accurate.

And Rambus, well, there's no polite way to explain why I'm not going to bother arguing with you, you're a lost cause and can't grasp how the game works. So I'mma just leave it at "You're wrong."

[Byrth]

I don't think Warrior needs more boosts, but I think the OP's proposal is a little more complicated than necessary.

If you want to fix "Break" WSs, give their additional effects a large magical accuracy bonus.

[kingfury]

It's not a point of view. I simply explained it without using the math and tone that some others did, but it makes their statements no less correct or accurate.
-----------------
**Disclaimer**: Even though this response is not DIRECTLY related to the OP, it is very much indirectly related to the attempts at setting the respect tone for any future post within this thread regarding the thread topic.

Oh it's a point of view alright lol compared to "GET OVER YOURSELF!" and "I use to think you were cool until you created you signature!" /stagger

Those "points of view" were "destructive and harsh criticisms" devoid of any constructive explanation. Any time you simply splurt out things like "YOU'RE STUPID" or "YOU'RE RETARDED" or "YOU'RE WRONG" at someone instead of just using good o'l fashioned adult-like communication to explain yourself and your views/positions with zero tear downs, it makes it near impossible to gain any understanding towards making those communication connections or those simple changes like the ones made to my signature.

I never called anyone "wrong" for believing what they believed in regards to my signature, yet I've defended the reasons I made it time and time again. Akin to what Rambus is saying, to me the signature change is very much the same thing, just done in a different style. I included my name to in fact show ownership of the artwork (hence the "by" part), and my player name since that's how people know me in this game world. However, it's an easy compromise to just change the format if it will present the art in a less "arrogant" way, and one that I don't mind in the slightest.

The same goes for my suggestions. I have yet to call anyone "wrong" for voicing their opinions to anything I post, and I never will. If they feel strongly that what I'm proposing is frivolous, it's their right to feel that way, but it doesn't have to be accompanied by the tearing down of another person to communicate it. I say respect begets respect, and flame will most likely beget more flame. lol

So all in all, I'm thanking you for taking time out to "maturely" explain yourself. This type of communication will always be respected and welcomed to any thread of mine. So thanks ^^/

[kingfury]

I don't think Warrior needs more boosts, but I think the OP's proposal is a little more complicated than necessary.
If you want to fix "Break" WSs, give their additional effects a large magical accuracy bonus.
------------------
The more I think about how people are saying the statement, "WAR doesn't need anymore boosts", the more it makes me want to validate what the "Fixing" of these Break ws's would be considered.

In essence, I'm not asking for an additional "boost" to WAR since the ws's are already in-game. I'm asking that they be revised to function in a way that actually makes the ws's worth using while wielding a GA. I'm not so sure that should be considered a boost to WAR, but rather a revision. I've said things like "if only they had some clearly visible effects that everyone could see and notice" all in an attempt to ask for a version of the ws's that would make it clear to players that the intended effects are working like they should without having to run a parser to validate that in fact they are but at a level so unnoticeable you'd be better off not using it at all.

There's a lot of ws's that players wish would function effectively enough to call them "useful", but as we all know from years of playing the game, that's just not the case for some reason or another. I've edited in my "Bolstering to Stats" concept of the ws's to the OP since it's another perspective to solving the problem, but it's just another suggestion. They could have made DNC's cypher effects completely non-visible to the eyes of the player and the effects would still be going on in the background of the game code, but they didn't. It's no wonder why they didn't since, in my opinion, the drain effects look cool as heck, and give the players absolute confirmation that the JA's is working with each hit. It's great game design as far as I'm concerned. Does it have to be this way with everything in the game? Of course not, but it does help greatly in situations like the one I'm focusing on.

Additional effects that boost magical acc bonus would be a great addition by the way! The "Bolstering to Stats" concept now on the OP could easily include such an addition. Probably call it "Spirit Break" ^^ Thanks for the feedback.

[Byrth]

I wasn't suggesting a separate job ability or trait to boost magical accuracy, nor do I think fixing Breaks will matter enough to really qualify as a "Buff" to the warrior job.

That said, I don't see any problem with giving them (and every WS) a magical accuracy boost similar to (but not as large as) the first-hit WS Accuracy boost. This would help us land the en-effects on GA WSs (Breaks and Metatron Torment) and make elemental weaponskills more useful. As it is, these weaponskills don't land on EP monsters that are mildly "strong" against the element or essentially any monsters a few levels above us.

Now, I have no problem with the occasional monster being immune to the debuffs from Full Break. But even if nothing in the game did resist it, it's only -12.5% Defense and probably doesn't stack with other Defense down things like Angon, maybe Acid Bolts, etc. On non-NMs, it won't be worth using, and on NM it will only be worth using if you have several DDs.

[kingfury]

@ Byrth:

Oh o.o, Then what were you referring to when you said "I don't think Warrior needs more boosts"?

[Byrth]

I don't think generically increasing magical accuracy for all weaponskills across all jobs necessarily qualifies as a boost to Warrior, especially when Break WSs would still be worthless in the vast majority of situations I find myself in on WAR.

[kingfury]

Understood. You don't think suggesting Bolstering Damage, -PDT, and Accuracy for all party members in the area of effect from using Break ws's would be useful on WAR?

*Note:I've edited in my "Bolstering to Stats" concept of the ws's to the OP.

[Byrth]

Understood. You don't think suggesting Bolstering Damage, -PDT, and Accuracy for all party members in the area of effect from using Break ws's would be useful on WAR?

I think that's the intended consequence of landing the additional effects of Full Break anyway, so just making the additional effects actually land would be enough and wouldn't require additional programming on SE's end.

Being creative is a good thing, but you should consider keeping suggestions realistic. Fixing old content seems to take a back seat to making new content, so you're going to have the best shot at making them do something if you make the "fix" as simple as possible. Perhaps I'm blind to underlying constraints, but I feel I could fix many problems with this game just by adjusting constants in their equations.

[Greatguardian]

Understood. You don't think suggesting Bolstering Damage, -PDT, and Accuracy for all party members in the area of effect from using Break ws's would be useful on WAR?

How exactly are Damage and -PDT being bolstered for players when Full Break is used? Either as it stands now, or in some manner via proposed changes. There is no mob stat for the WS to adjust to gain those effects. The closest you could get is -VIT, which would raise fSTR but only if fSTR is not capped (same problem -Def has now anyways).

Are you trying to make the WS give an AoE Aftermath buff or something? =/

[kingfury]

I hear ya, but SE themselves have already said fixing/refitting old content and zones is in their development plans for a good minute along side of creating new content. When I find the actual quote, I'll post it right here.

It's strange to me why most folks don't consider that the fixing/altering/revising of older content equates to new content. Perhaps if the changes are minor enough this in fact would hold true, like changing the color of something wouldn't really warrant calling it "new content". If you take an old concept and completely change how it works in-game, however, shouldn't that be considered "new content"? Like if you took a plane o'l broken pen, but then fixed it to where the pen is now a pen, a marker, a pencil, and a highlighter all in one, that would make it something new yes?

Well the biggest problem being discussed on this thread atm is in fact even if the Break ws's land unresisted, the ability to notice the effects require things like a 3rd party software or a parser to even notice they're in fact working as intended. As they are, a player has no practical use for these weapon skills in either battle strategy or otherwise. The suggestion of Bolstering stats over the duration of the enfeebling effect would possibly ADD something substantial to them.

[kingfury]

How exactly are Damage and -PDT being bolstered for players when Full Break is used? Either as it stands now, or in some manner via proposed changes. There is no mob stat for the WS to adjust to gain those effects. The closest you could get is -VIT, which would raise fSTR but only if fSTR is not capped (same problem -Def has now anyways).
Are you trying to make the WS give an AoE Aftermath buff or something? =/
-------------
Yeah, I've edited in the suggestion to the OP. Sorry for not putting that in the post above. I'll add it.

[Byrth]

You can tell whether or not Breaks land by when they wear off (this is the only way I know of). If the Defense down from Full Break lands, it will have more of an impact than Warcry, and people claim to be able to see when Warcry is up. I don't think there's any need for a status icon, but I guess they could add a message to the effect of, "Additional effect: Evasion/Defense/Attack down" or whatever lands.

SE needs to keep feeding us new things to do to keep us playing. I'm damned near capped out on Abyssea. Fixing old content like "Breaks" is going to affect the way that we continue playing, but I wouldn't renew my subscription for a patch full of fixes that gave me new ways to do things I'd already done.

Edit: Well, I should say that people can tell when and quantify Full Break's Defense Down and Evasion down land through /check tests or by using ranged attacks.

[kingfury]

I hear ya ^^ Thanks for the feedback /

Now the issue isn't just to know if the ws's effects have in fact landed on a target, but if the ws's are in fact effective enough to be considered worth having at this point in the game. They are a waste of TP as they are currently since they do not outweigh simply using a high damaging ws in their place in terms of battle strategy.

My most recently added suggestion would give them an added dimension in terms of battle strategy at the very least, and would allow party members to benefit from the bolstered effects. Plus give some nice visual feedback to the user of the ws.

[Afrohatch]

No one's going to use Full Break even with this buff lol, especially if they have Ukko's at their disposal

[Rambus]

No one's going to use Full Break even with this buff lol, especially if they have Ukko's at their disposal

sure we do.... need to find blue and can't kill tooo fast because of procs.

I dislike trying to scout red on a different weapon >< no red GA ws.

[Afrohatch]

sure we do.... need to find blue and can't kill tooo fast because of procs.


A perfect reason to buff FB >_>

[kingfury]

No one's going to use Full Break even with this buff lol, especially if they have Ukko's at their disposal
-----------
Well mine is just a suggestion ^^ but the problem lies within your comment. Do you think the Devs wanted DD's strategy to be reduced to just hitting the hardest for every single challenge we come up against? Perhaps, but I'd like to think not. True Battle strategy is all about defense and offense and the balancing of the two.

Strategically speaking, in a possible theoretical example:
Popping Full Break at 100 TP with the "Bolstering effects" in my suggestion to +Damage and +Accuracy then quickly building 200+ TP before using Bergresser > Warcry > Blood Rage > Sekkekoni > 2hr > RR x2 could possibly give some nice visible spikes to damage that could yield consistent damage based on how many times you hit the monster during your TP'ing segment. Just a thought though.

[Afrohatch]

-----------
True Battle strategy is all about defense and offense and the balancing of the two.

No, it's killing it before it kills you.

[kingfury]

No, it's killing it before it kills you.
--------------
>< well of course I'm referring strategies that involve foes you can't run in and zerg kill ^^ Standard monsters and weak NM's definitely fall under the logic you speak of. /

[Afrohatch]

Name some NMs where Full Break would have a practical use on, then.

[Greatguardian]

--------------
>< well of course I'm referring strategies that involve foes you can't run in and zerg kill ^^ Standard monsters and weak NM's definitely fall under the logic you speak of. /

And he's not referring solely to foes that "Can be zerged". In all honesty, we can no longer call it zerging when my Mnk floors an NM in 60 seconds as the sole DD without any marches or outside buffs aside from Haste. That is not the same as the old definition of "Zerging" wherein you'd have Bard rotations fully buffing 2hr'ing Melee. At this point people are just using it as a pseudo-derogatory term implying people who kill quickly don't know how to play well.

Sure, you can kill things more slowly. But what is the benefit in doing so? It is not more strategic. The best defense is a good offense and if you have the option of killing something faster it means you are giving it less time to hit you, TP on you, potentially kill you, etc. You can kill something with a Monk in 5 minutes, or with a Paladin in 10 minutes, but the Paladin is still taking more damage and using up more of the support's MP because they have to survive 10 minutes worth of attacks rather than 5 minutes worth of attacks.

FFXI's Community came out of the dark ages when people finally realized this en masse. It has never, ever been about "balancing defense". That was simply something people tried back in the day which artificially added a lot of "difficulty", aka time consumption, to NMs which we have since found to be easy. It may not fit into people's idealized concepts of battle strategy and gameplay, but it is how FFXI has worked, does work, and will likely continue to work. If this sort of gameplay does not appeal to someone, they are honestly better off trying out different games and finding one that does more closely fit their ideals than trying to juxtapose their ideal onto the FFXI Dev Team's ideal. I'm all for suggestions, but a lot of times things boil down to people requesting a new game where the things they like matter.

[kingfury]

Name some NMs where Full Break would have a practical use on, then.
----------------
Well none based on FB as it is now ^^ but I just posted this example in regards to the version I'm suggesting on the OP:

"Strategically speaking, in a possible theoretical example:
Popping Full Break at 100 TP with the "Bolstering effects" in my suggestion to +Damage and +Accuracy then quickly building 200+ TP before using Bergresser > Warcry > Blood Rage > Sekkekoni > 2hr > RR x2 could possibly give some nice visible spikes to damage that could yield consistent damage based on how many times you hit the monster during your TP'ing segment. Just a thought though."


Building up +Damage and +Accuracy as you TP would be a nice little thing to add to the Killing of any NM ^^

[Afrohatch]

So basically you want to give FB an aftermath effect D:

And if it does get bolstered, again, what NMs would warrant needing to waste a WS on?

[kingfury]

@ Greatguardian:

Yep, there's no denying that we have the ability to murder NMs in minutes now a days, but I would equate "zerging" to defining SUPER minimal battle strategy that encompasses auto attacking and ws'ing a monster to death while you have someone keep you alive.

Firstly, my points are based on solo/duo or small party scenarios since I agree that an alliance of 18 people should be able to murder most everything using the rapid kill technique... but then there's still NMs like Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue that still doesn't allow for such a strategy, but I digress.

I assume you've fought Glavoid and Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet. These NMs are some examples of monsters that aren't designed for you to just run in and zerg kill it in 2 mins. That's not to say, of course, with enough fire power you can't kill them in minutes (ex. multiple DD's and multiple casters Nuking at once or poppin a brew). Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet are lesser NMs, but their designs is what I'm talking about. Glavoid punishes the zerg strategy for those that want to just run in and do as much damage as quickly as possible (non Brew of course). There's some strategy involved is all I'm saying. DD's have to turn around at certain points, Nukers have to time their Nukes just right, etc.

There's more NMs that just aren't designed for 2min kills is my point.

[kingfury]

So basically you want to give FB an aftermath effect D:
And if it does get bolstered, again, what NMs would warrant needing to waste a WS on?
------------------
Well it would be a buff to Damage and Accuracy to all DD's in your party, yourself included ^^ It would increase damage output, so it's like saying why "would you use Blood Rage?"

[Greatguardian]

@ Greatguardian:

Yep, there's no denying that we have the ability to murder NMs in minutes now a days, but I would equate "zerging" to defining SUPER minimal battle strategy that encompasses auto attacking and ws'ing a monster to death while you have someone keep you alive.

Firstly, my points are based on solo/duo or small party scenarios since I agree that an alliance of 18 people should be able to murder most everything using the rapid kill technique... but then there's still NMs like Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue that still doesn't allow for such a strategy, but I digress.

I assume you've fought Glavoid and Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet. These NMs are some examples of monsters that aren't designed for you to just run in and zerg kill it in 2 mins. That's not to say, of course, with enough fire power you can't kill them in minutes (ex. multiple DD's and multiple casters Nuking at once or poppin a brew). Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet are lesser NMs, but their designs is what I'm talking about. Glavoid punishes the zerg strategy for those that want to just run in and do as much damage as quickly as possible (non Brew of course). There's some strategy involved is all I'm saying. DD's have to turn around at certain points, Nukers have to time their Nukes just right, etc.

There's more NMs that just aren't designed for 2min kills is my point.

Er, not sure if it's an oversight or not but all of those NMs can be killed in 1-5 minutes with 1-2 DD. AV in particular pretty much has to be zerged, and can be done so with only 4 DD. I have something like half of his drops, I'd know, lol.

I know what you're trying to say, but it pretty much comes down to the same issue Dancers have with steps. In order to justify spending 100 TP (and thus losing out on an Ukko's Fury), the Add Effect of Full Break would have to both add more cumulative damage than an Ukko's, and not result in a net loss of efficiency when you are "Giving up damage now for the promise of damage later". There is a reason many buff/debuffs are simply not worth casting (many steps, Enlight, Endark, etc), and that is that they take away more from killspeed than they give back.

[Byrth]

I assume you've fought Glavoid and Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet. These NMs are some examples of monsters that aren't designed for you to just run in and zerg kill it in 2 mins. That's not to say, of course, with enough fire power you can't kill them in minutes (ex. multiple DD's and multiple casters Nuking at once or poppin a brew). Mictlantecuhtli and Tefenet are lesser NMs, but their designs is what I'm talking about. Glavoid punishes the zerg strategy for those that want to just run in and do as much damage as quickly as possible (non Brew of course). There's some strategy involved is all I'm saying. DD's have to turn around at certain points, Nukers have to time their Nukes just right, etc.

Those are also NMs that you wouldn't really want to use Full Break on, especially Mict. You spend so much time turning away that self-buffing things like what you're proposing are wasted. You're better off using your WS to do the best damage possible when you can do damage.

Full Break as you're proposing, apart from being either broken or useless, is inconsistent with the idea of a "Break," which is inherently a debuff. This just isn't a good idea. Increase their magical accuracy so that they have their intended effect more often, then accept that all weaponskills aren't useful.

PS. You can hit "Reply" then Control-A and Control-C, then go to the next post you want to Reply to and hit Reply again and paste it in above the next quote created, Control-A/Control-C again and stack it pretty much as many times as you want. That way you can respond to multiple people in the same post with a minimum of effort.

[kingfury]

Can't argue with you there lol you're both right ^^

I suppose I fear the day when all I have to do in this game is auto attack and ws as a means of "battle strategy". Since I know the Devs are getting this stuff, I would leave it up to them to balance this sad truth.

[kingfury]

Those are also NMs that you wouldn't really want to use Full Break on, especially Mict. You spend so much time turning away that self-buffing things like what you're proposing are wasted. You're better off using your WS to do the best damage possible when you can do damage.

Full Break as you're proposing, apart from being either broken or useless, is inconsistent with the idea of a "Break," which is inherently a debuff. This just isn't a good idea. Increase their magical accuracy so that they have their intended effect more often, then accept that all weaponskills aren't useful.
---------------
I wasn't saying that FB would be good to use on these targets Byrth, I was just trying to drive home the point that some monsters in this game don't warrant the "Fast Kill" mentality. That wouldn't mean that that it wouldn't be great to use while burning through lots of monsters and in times when you wish to Buff up the damage from other DD's in your party. Yes it would sacrifice 100 TP and minus the damage from you're own possible powerful ws, but it would be replaced by the possible doubled or so damage from the ws's of every other DD in the party. It's just looking at in a different way is all. Minus your 1 ws, to possibly double the other ws's in the group.

The suggested Bolstered effect FB that I'm proposing would still inflict the same enfeebles as it does now, it would just add the Bolstered stat effect to the equation.

[kingfury]

@ Greatguardian:

Pandemonium Warden can be killed in 1-5 mins now with duo-small party numbers?! o.o

[Byrth]

I wasn't saying that FB would be good to use on these targets Byrth, I was just trying to drive home the point that some monsters in this game don't warrant the "Fast Kill" mentality. That wouldn't mean that that it wouldn't be great to use while burning through lots of monsters and in times when you wish to Buff up the damage from other DD's in your party. Yes it would sacrifice 100 TP and minus the damage from you're own possible powerful ws, but it would be replaced by the possible doubled or so damage from the ws's of every other DD in the party. It's just looking at in a different way is all. Minus your 1 ws, to possibly double the other ws's in the group.

The suggested Bolstered effect FB that I'm proposing would still inflict the same enfeebles as it does now, it would just add the Bolstered stat effect to the equation.

I don't see how this addresses the criticisms I made in my previous post. The fact that "Breaks" are designed to be debuffs and not buffs still remains, regardless of what you're proposing.

Also, you were specifically giving those NMs as examples of NMs where the "fast kill" mentality doesn't work. The problem with debuffs/buffs is that they have a finite duration, which is best taken advantage of if you're continuously meleeing a monster. Breaks are bad on monsters where the "fast kill" mentality doesn't apply because you waste time not taking advantage of the debuffs you sacrificed TP for.

Breaks (if they landed more often) would be most useful on monsters where the fight is ~3 minutes (the duration of an unresisted break iirc) and where you're continuously meleeing. Tier 2 NMs other than Glavoid or the Uragnite, for instance.

[Mirage]

Look here

If you are up against an enemy that requires something-break, you will definitely see a difference if you just pay attention. Using shield break against an enemy with high evasion where all other melees are struggling to reach 75% hit rate, will make them hit way more often, and their multihit WSes will consistently deal more damage when they can land more hits more easily.

If all melees in a group has capped accuracy, are you *really* arguing that now they should suddenly have more than 100% accuracy, which again should be visible to to the naked eye? Because this is exactly what you are arguing when you want that powered up defence-down effect.

Just like when we're capped on accuracy we don't see benefits from shield break (or other evasion-reducing effects on the mob), when we are capped (or near capped) on attack, we will not see any benefits from a full break with -45% defence. The *only* way to make full break effective is to add mobs where we are very far from capped on attack. Asking to have the WS buff all melees that are on the mob instead is exactly the same as asking for Warcry to be a TP move warriors can use every time they hit 100 TP.

Just so you know, reacing 100 TP is ridiculously fast these days, so basically you're asking warriors to be able to give (another) warcry to their entire alliance every 25 seconds.

[kingfury]

Right ^^ As they are, they are JUST debuffs/enfeebles. The goal of this thread is to urge the Dev Team to improve and make the ws effects more visible and useful somehow from what they are currently. Mine is only a suggestion that would add some visible damage, accuracy, and -PDT on top of the enfeebles, all of which would be noticeable vs the weak enfeebles the ws's inflict. So yeah, I'm suggesting to make theses ws's perhaps a hybrid of enfeeble/buff in an effort to achieve the thread goal.

The strategy would look like this (lets say outside Abyssea, and low ball the damage for the sake of example):

Without the hybrid Full Break: 200 TP = 2 powerful ws that equal 1k each totaling 2k dmg

With the hybrid Full Break: 100 TP = Full Break > 100 TP = 1 powerful ws that would now possibly be doubled totaling 2k+ dmg and the same boost to all other DD's in your party.

I agree that it would be a magnificent boost, but that's the point after all ^^ "How could these ws's be made to be useful within our current battle strategies?" Like Greatguardian said, unless the ws's made up for the loss of opportunity to use your most powerful ws, it would be wasting TP.

[kingfury]

Look here
If you are up against an enemy that requires something-break, you will definitely see a difference if you just pay attention. Using shield break against an enemy with high evasion where all other melees are struggling to reach 75% hit rate, will make them hit way more often, and their multihit WSes will consistently deal more damage when they can land more hits more easily.
If all melees in a group has capped accuracy, are you *really* arguing that now they should suddenly have more than 100% accuracy, which again should be visible to to the naked eye? Because this is exactly what you are arguing when you want that powered up defence-down effect.
Just like when we're capped on accuracy we don't see benefits from shield break (or other evasion-reducing effects on the mob), when we are capped (or near capped) on attack, we will not see any benefits from a full break with -45% defence. The *only* way to make full break effective is to add mobs where we are very far from capped on attack. Asking to have the WS buff all melees that are on the mob instead is exactly the same as asking for Warcry to be a TP move warriors can use every time they hit 100 TP.
Just so you know, reacing 100 TP is ridiculously fast these days, so basically you're asking warriors to be able to give (another) warcry to their entire alliance every 25 seconds.
---------------
I know Mirage ^^ but the point now is why bother using the ws's at all over just spamming your most powerful ws.

The buffs may sounds crazy I know, but the argument is valid. If WARs could sacrifice TP to boost your Party DD's ws dmg and acc and PDT (not alliance), every 100 TP, "would it be worth using" is the question. I'm not saying that it is the answer, just trying to push the envelope a bit to spark some creative solutions.

WHAT would make these ws's worth spending 100 TP vs using your most powerful ws? Whatever that answer is better be supercalifragilisticexpialidocious! ^^ Something that would make other DD's in the party ask stuff like, "WTH are you doing?! Why aren't you using Full Break? /slap"

[Camate]

After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)

[kingfury]

After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)
---------------
/stagger so it was all worth it!!! lol Thank you a ton Camate for the wonderful word /kneel

/Kingfury plays the victory music from FFVII :D

[CrystalWeapon]

Glad to see the way the thread turned around after a near closure. Reworking the ws's will add a bit more tact into fighting as apposed to mass damage ws spam, but we'll have to wait and see what changes they have in store. If the effects are strong enough we may see a lot of the former "useless" weaponskills being used again.

[kingfury]

You and me both CrystalWeapon ^^; Look at it like this, they have a truck load of REALY passionate feedback to go on here lol ^^ so lets hope for the best.

[Rambus]

After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)

YA! point and lauth at all the haters!

tyty

any chance of bringing this up too?:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/6296-level-4-skillchain
it is ws releated, sotra.

[Coldbrand]

Here's hoping impulse drive becomes worth a damn.

[Harukusan]

You want GA enfeebling WS? Get Ukon, spam Ukko's Fury like any normal WAR would. That has slow! zomg! And it's the single most powerful WS in the game today! Followed closely by Drakesbane, Victory Smite and Blade: Hi

[Ravenmore]

Yeah impulse drive was a bit of a disapointment after going though the trouble of getting it.

[Rambus]

for impulse drive remember sams and wars get acess to it, so keep it in check per say

they both get sonic thurst, just something to think about.

my stance is that it needs to be better, yes, but do not overdo it.

[Septimus]

After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)

Any chance that one of the weapon skills to be adjusted is Cloudsplitter (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5008-Cloudsplitter)? It needs a lot of help.

[Rambus]

Any chance that one of the weapon skills to be adjusted is Cloudsplitter (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5008-Cloudsplitter)? It needs a lot of help.

I thought it was ment to be weak XD:

Clouds aren't very hard.


MYSTERY. SOLVED.

[Ravenmore]

Why, not like Sams use polearms any more for dmg and wars get even lower skill then sam. Only time you'll see a sam use polearm now is to proc red or for a small chance to proc blu. Another reason so many sams used polearm in the first place was the mobs that everyone wanted to merit on were birds. I have a feeling if they buff across the board war and sam WS would get better and never know they might even throw little love drks way least I would hope.

[Eeek]

I'd like to make more use of Warp Sting. Is there any hope for a kitteh like me?

[Rambus]

Why, not like Sams use polearms any more for dmg and wars get even lower skill then sam. Only time you'll see a sam use polearm now is to proc red or for a small chance to proc blu. Another reason so many sams used polearm in the first place was the mobs that everyone wanted to merit on were birds. I have a feeling if they buff across the board war and sam WS would get better and never know they might even throw little love drks way least I would hope.

I said it could use updating but not to go overboard with it, why would it be fair for it to outdo Drakesbane? that is what i ment by I hope they do not go overboard.

[Teraniku]

See to me the Quested Weapon Skills, Should have been the best, highest Damage weaponskills in the game. (I'm looking at you Savage Blade, considering what a pain in the butt you were to get compared to the other quested weaponskills.)

[Ravenmore]

It should be then some drgs would bother getting it. Its not just abyburned drgs that don't have it lot of old shcool drgs never bothered with it.