Please Rework "FULL BREAK'S" effectiveness + other GA ws's like it DEV TEAM /wave [Archive] - Page 2

Leonlionheart

04-30-2011, 04:44 PM

Regarding the breadth of this thread I personally think its a flaming retarded idea to make weaponskills 'universally' good. Just because something is hard to get, doesn't mean it's good, and doesn't mean it SHOULD be good.
As if breaking WS latents is hard. Me and a friend broke 3 in an hour the other day, two for WSNM one for lvl 100 nyzul.

opinion, "should be" based on the person quoted, i can understand if people want to say 300 + ws should be better or what not, just an opinion though.

same with the effects of these ga ws like nin mythic ws should the effect of it be better too?

I think relic WS's clearly need a power boost or at least a utility boost, considering both Katana and H2H relic ws's increase subtle blow, which is capped on NIN with just trait and Rajas ring + torero torque + Heed Ring + merits (that's without even casting the subtle blow spell), and nearly capped on MNK with the same gear + Tantra crown +2. Almost all of the after affects are completely useless setting aside MAYBE amano and apoc, simply because they let you increase your stats through other gear. Although kaiten and catastrophe are still really poor WS's.

It seems that SE has already made this effort with the lvl90 Relics having something like a 25% ws damage increase, and if we continue to see the damage increase in further weapon upgrades like that it could fix the 'problem.'

noodles355

05-01-2011, 09:09 AM

A little late in reply, but just to point out:

I'm asking that they be revised to function in a way that actually makes the ws's worth using while wielding a GA.So you want breaks worked to still be relevant at lv. 75+? What about other WS? Double Thrust? Viper Bite? Fast Blade? Raging Axe? Etc etc.
If you want to boost break WSs then you should want to boost all the low level WSs too.

Because the argument "Breaks were never good" is a complete falacy. In earlier days, in low level parties, the accepted "rule" to being a good Gaxe user (even on drk, if you were going for best performance, you'd use a gaxe in the 20s/30s) was "Below 50%HP, sturmwind, above 50%TP, Shield break for the -evasion boost. Because you can still have epicly good accuracy gear, PCC and other high price items, but accuracy is still the biggest hinderance to low level DDs. (Back in a time when leveling mattered, before abyssea).

But yeah, if you were a good WAR, then you used Shield Break and Sturmwind depending on the situation.

WSs are designed to get outdated. In the 20s, Double Thrust was a good WS. By the 50s it's completely worthless because of getting Penta Thrust. The same is true for Raging Axe and Rampage. Combo and raging fists. Fast blade and vorpal blade. etc etc etc. WS get outdated. There's no real logical reason to boost those old "Break" WSs by themselves.

If we're talking about Full Break, and that it's a WSNM WS that's useless then that is a fair point, however I would state:
1) Many WSNM WSs are crap. (G)Impulse Drive? Crap. Black Halo? Crap. Decimation? Crap. Savage Blade? 90% Crap. etc etc.
2) If you want to fix Full Break, you should want to fix the other crap WSNM WSs too. I wouldn't mind a fix to make some of the WSNM WSs better, and I hope that lsat developer's reply was regarding WSNM WSs.

*I say these WSNM WSs ars "crap", what I mean is lower skill level ws are better. like Penta Thrust > Gimpulse Drive. Rampage > Decimation. Vorpal Sword > Savage Blade, etc etc etc.

kingfury

05-02-2011, 05:19 AM

This sums up my views/beliefs in regards to this topic. Post 119 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5971-Please-Rework-FULL-BREAK-S-effectiveness-other-GA-ws-s-like-it-DEV-TEAM-wave?p=82880&viewfull=1#post82880)

noodles355

05-03-2011, 12:50 PM

You want WSs to be scableable, great. I get that.
But why just the Break WSs? I can't see a logical reason why you would want the "Break" WSs to be fixed to be relevent every level, but don't want other such weaponskills.

If it was just oversight at the beginning of the topic and you do feel that you want all WSs scaleable, and not just the Breaks then I can accept that. I don't agree with you about it, but I can still understand and appreciate your view.
However, if you think the "Break" WSs should be upgraded in this way but don't care for any of the other low-level WSs, then I have a problem with your argument as I see no logical way how you can think it should apply only to the Break WSs.

kingfury

05-11-2011, 11:45 PM

My stance is that all ws's should be scaleable and effective throughout a players growth. Break ws's were just the ones that I chose to focus on for this thread topic.

Mirage

05-12-2011, 01:14 AM

I sure want my iron tempest to be as strong as steel cyclone. That would totally make it worth doing 300 wspoints and running to the middle of nowhere to kill some NS

Byrth

05-12-2011, 05:05 AM

Mirage

05-12-2011, 06:49 AM

Or if you're not in a party, the first good ws a thf gets is dancing edge, at level 60.

kingfury

05-12-2011, 08:28 AM

Yeah, that's not a very reasonable stance. Weaponskills should be balanced for their level, but it's simply not reasonable to expect all of your weaponskills to be useful for all the levels. How are you going to balance Double Thrust against Penta Thrust? Full Break vs. Armor/Weapon/Shield Break? Keen Edge vs. Raging Rush?
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Weaponskill Modifiers and job abilities and other buffs would be my answer. Steel Cyclone isn't worth using unless you're popping it off at 300TP. Stacking DEX gear for Evisceration vs something like VIT improves the ws damage. Everything else should be based on what job abilities and food and other buffs you have at the time. It wouldn't really be that difficult to scale.

That said, it would be nice if SE could balance weaponskills across jobs. Then Dark Knights wouldn't end up using Great Axe for the first 50+ levels, Thieves wouldn't end up using Sword or H2H for the first 32-34 levels, Dancer wouldn't end up using Sword or H2H for the first 50+ levels, etc.
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This could also be addressed from balancing the effectiveness of ws's all around.

Byrth

05-12-2011, 12:09 PM

Weaponskill Modifiers and job abilities and other buffs would be my answer. Steel Cyclone isn't worth using unless you're popping it off at 300TP. Stacking DEX gear for Evisceration vs something like VIT improves the ws damage. Everything else should be based on what job abilities and food and other buffs you have at the time. It wouldn't really be that difficult to scale.

You don't understand how weaponskill damage is calculated, so here's the page:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage

Try to understand why the weaponskills I cited are difficult to reconcile with your idea of all weaponskills remaining useful throughout the entire game.

kingfury

05-12-2011, 01:09 PM

/sigh Nah Byrth, after 7+years of playing the game, I understand the current ws formula's just fine ^^

I'm speaking in terms of a "reworked/modified" version of all ws's, so everything that we know currently would be /tossed out of the window should the Devs decide to alter the way things are done ws wide. I'm speaking "theoretically" as to what I personally would like ws's efficiency to based on.

At low lvls there's no means to possibly stack the same amount of stat WS Modifiers as you do at high lvls and it would hold true throughout a players growth. Once at a high lvl and maxed combat skill lvls, the rest would be up to the players to stack the appropriate mods to see the best results from their ws's.

Greatguardian

05-12-2011, 01:24 PM

TybudX

05-12-2011, 02:01 PM

At low lvls there's no means to possibly stack the same amount of stat WS Modifiers as you do at high lvls

This is why break WSs are good at low levels.

Once at a high lvl and maxed combat skill lvls, the rest would be up to the players to stack the appropriate mods to see the best results from their ws's.

We, and I use the term we loosely, already do this right now. If SE were to make all the WSs balanced in terms of WSC and fTP, it would make the added effects on break WSs the only thing that mattered. So instead of every WAR spamming Ukko's or RR they would all be spamming Armor Break or Full Break.

kingfury

05-12-2011, 02:32 PM

Speaking as someone who's pretty much apathetic about Full Break, I can safely say that, on these forums, speaking "theoretically" seems to equate to "completely ignoring the fundamental mechanics of the game because it's easier that way".
Easier for us, near impossible for an extremely limited, underfunded Dev team.
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^^ True Strike Greatguardian

It's no different than what science fiction does for inventors and scientist. Thinking outside of what's currently possible is extremely hard to do for those that have been bound by laws and formulas for most of their careers, but those uninhibited by such boundaries are the ones that truly push those minds to break through what's currently possible.

Sometimes it's necessary to invite such thinking to "change" the perception of what can and can't be done. I very seriously doubt the Dev Team is afraid of change at this point in FFXI's life after a complete renaissance of changes all throughout these past years. Things we as lvl 75 players would have never have dreamed possible in this game has become common place thanks to the very idea of "ignoring the fundamental mechanics of the game" to achieve new and radical plateaus for us to experience. Hell, if someone would have told you at lvl 75 back in the day that you would soon be able to dish out ws damage ranging from 4-10k+ even if only within a special battlefield area, you would have called them a fruit bat and /laughed in their face lol. But look at us now.

Like with the "Tier II 2hrs" thread here on these boards, the Devs welcomed radical thinking on the topic, and they're well aware that once they receive such feedback they can scale back as needed. The point is, once you have those radical ideas on the table that are completely outside of what's considered the norm or possible, you now have the most perfect clay to mold with to sculpt something absolutely original from it.

I'm aware it's hard to digest suggested change based on opinion, but hey, that's why they made these boards right? ^^

TybudX

05-12-2011, 02:55 PM

Hell, if someone would have told you at lvl 75 back in the day that you would soon be able to dish out ws damage ranging from 4-10k+ even in a special battlefield area, you would have called them a fruit bat and /laughed in their face lol.

Or we could have used a 5th grade math formula to see that it was easily possible. And for the record, you aren't trying to change perception, you are trying to make a different game than the one we are playing. I see from some of your most recent posts that you still don't have any understanding of game mechanics. I suggested weeks ago that you spend 2 or 3 hours learning them so you would know how certain things were applied in game. I'm sure you've spent more than 3 hours coming up with arguments as to why you are a creative genius despite not having actually come up with anything to support your ideas. How about now, instead of continuing to sound foolish, you take a night off, go check over the wiki to see what the formulas do, and come up with something creative and reasonable that actually makes sense. All we've seen so far is a half baked idea to give WAR JAs that DNC already has (and doesn't use). It would be obvious to you why it was a bad idea if you knew the formulas. So again, in the interest of being able to judge for yourself why we think this thread is moronic, go. It will save you time in the end.

kingfury

05-12-2011, 03:10 PM

why do you even post on these threads Tybud? lol Will no one argue with you in RL?

What do you think these boards are for truely? A place to pitch new ideas based on what's currently in the game only? New Job abilities that do nothing really "new" at all because they would break the current game code if they in fact did do something new? Just do everyone here a favor and leave now and never return if you have no plans of contributing ANYTHING original in terms of NEW IDEAS for FFXI. Because I've checked, and you've contributed nothing... zero ideas for the Dev Team on these boards. Yet you feel the need to dare try and inhibit another's creative suggestion. Why? It's more than silly to hear your troll-filled cheeks spitting nothing but negativity at anything you didn't come up with yourself ^^

Posted by Comm. Rep Bayohne in the "New ideas for v2 Two - Hour abilities?" post 19 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1184-New-ideas-for-v2-Two-Hour-abilities.?p=68001&viewfull=1#post68001):
"Hey gang! Thanks as always for the feedback! We're letting the dev. team know about your comments and ideas, so make sure to keep 'em coming!
Let your imagination run wild! Then reel it in a little bit... then post! Or, don't reel it in at all!"

Yeah, this sounds like they want every player to go and spend hours training their minds to be ABSOLUTELY closed to anything outside of the current game formulas and possibilities of FFXI as it is before posting... "Imaginative" ideas!! ^^

Go argue with yourself in the corner somewhere PLEASE, and save room for posters that actually understand what a creative suggestion board is for. No need to respond at all, SERIOUSLY.

TybudX

05-12-2011, 07:20 PM

I'm all for good ideas being furthered, but this one is bad. It is in my best interest to not see bad ideas implemented in game simply because some egotist declared himself King of Outside the Box. Do you really think there would be 7 pages of opposition to this idea if it were any good? You need to drop it. It sucks. Go work on your next life goal.

Byrth

05-12-2011, 08:55 PM

OK good! So you understand! Now, lets say you theoretically make stat mods that grow throughout a player's levels. Furthermore, lets say you perfectly balance them so that all weaponskills average equal damage for a naked level 90 player!

Double Thrust, being two hits, would need substantially higher mods than Penta Thrust, being five hits, to accomplish this, would it not?

Now you put on WS gear. You have an awesome WS set gained 70 STR. Oh no! Now Double Thrust's stronger mods make it the better weaponskill! Now you use Double Thrust all the time!

OKOK, so they balance the mods for someone with your STR in WS gear. Oh no! Your friend just reactivated and has less strength than you. Penta Thrust is the better weaponskill for him and he uses it all the time!

Unless all the weaponskills have the same modifiers and same fTP, there will always be a "best" due to our ability to swap gear, merit, have racial differences, etc. What you're asking for is irrational and impossible. You seem to realize this, at least subconsciously, which is shown in your title. You don't ask for them to fix the "Break" family. You just ask for Full Break.

kingfury

05-12-2011, 10:53 PM

@Byrth: Nah, the title of the thread is "Please Rework "FULL BREAK'S" effectiveness + other GA ws's like it", so I'm targeting all break ws's with this thread.

My suggestion on the topic of making all ws's scaleable is based on making the effectiveness and power of ws's continually grow with each player as they increase in combat skills and lvl stats. That doesn't mean there still wouldn't be ws's that have certain shining qualities over other ws's, just that the effectiveness and efficiency of ws's in your list regardless of if they were acquired at low levels would still hold worth a high levels.

Even though the WS Modifications system as we've known it for all these years is governed by well known formulas and conditions, my opinion to modify ws's to be balanced based on such a concept is because it would be rewarding to see the powerful results at high levels with all of our many stat stacking options to early acquired ws's. Finding what stats modify the ws in question, and then proceeding to stack those stats to see the best results is a great feeling when they actually increase the damage lol. The problem currently with this, is that it just doesn't work so well for early acquired ws's based on the current code that governs the system.

Results would still vary from ws to ws since nearly everything in this game has certain "conditions" as to they're effectiveness. Chance of critical hit varies with TP, Damage varies with TP, and Aftermaths such as Occasionally deals double damage, etc. I'm not suggesting that everything be equal at all, just tweaked to scale with our growing power. If you asked me should Sturmwind hold the potential to do 2k+ damage at lvl 90? I would say yes. It's a ws that's designed to do damage, so as we grow in power and increase our stats, the damaging potential of the such a ws should also grow. Should a player have to build ws sets to see those impressive results instead of just expecting them to be strong while in TP gear? I say yes. The WS Mods based on early acquired ws's could even be something of a challenge vs high level ws's due to the nature of when a player gets them, so long as they work as intended.

Nothing is impossible so long as you're the folks that hold the power to mold the system as you see fit. I'm not saying that I would rebuild the system, and that's not the point of these suggestion boards. If we all had the know how of redesigning the game as we saw fit, there would be no need for a suggestion board, but since most of us can't, changes based on our opinions is what we have to work with. The Devs take suggestions from there and have the power to change the system based on the possibilities. Like augmenting an Osode, something the game couldn't allow before now can be done based on a newly added system. Don't close your mind to an idea simply because it conflicts with current game formulas and processes, since all these things can be altered.

Mirage

05-12-2011, 11:43 PM

If you asked me should Sturmwind hold the potential to do 2k+ damage at lvl 90?

Just FYI, sturmwind can do 2000 damage at level 90. So i guess that means you're satisfied!

Byrth

05-12-2011, 11:53 PM

If Sturmwind did the best average damage, the practical Warrior would only use Sturmwind. When weaponskills just do damage, there are no niches for them to fill. Great Axe is actually fortunate to have multiple weaponskills that are not pure damage and that potentially have situational uses. Polearm is substantially less fortunate.

I agree that some weaponskills need to be adjusted. I disagree that you can somehow invent a scaling mod system that prevents one or two weaponskills from being the best damage weaponskill.

I would make the following changes to our weaponskills:
10 - Shield Break: Increased Magical Accuracy for en-Evasion Down
40 - Iron Tempest: No change
70 - Sturmwind: Make it scale with TP as the description says, remove the funkiness that makes both of its hits 100% accurate when Sneak Attacked.
100 - Armor Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
150 - Keen Edge: Increase STR mod to 50%, double the crit boost
175 - Weapon Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
200 - Raging Rush: No changes
225 - Full Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
240 - Steel Cyclone: No changes
300 - Fell Cleave: No changes
lv75 - King's Justice: I'd increase first-hit fTP to 1.5 and have it scale up to 2.5, but this could also just be left alone.
lv85 - Ukko's Fury: No changes

In the end, at 90, Ukon WARs would use:
Ukko's Fury - For damage
Steel Cyclone - With Sneak Attack, maybe
Full Break - When debuffs from Full Break are more important than the damage you could have done with a WS
King's Justice - Potentially for Mighty Strikes still, if the changes are made.

Volkai

05-13-2011, 01:00 AM

If Sturmwind did the best average damage, the practical Warrior would only use Sturmwind. When weaponskills just do damage, there are no niches for them to fill. Great Axe is actually fortunate to have multiple weaponskills that are not pure damage and that potentially have situational uses. Polearm is substantially less fortunate.

I agree that some weaponskills need to be adjusted. I disagree that you can somehow invent a scaling mod system that prevents one or two weaponskills from being the best damage weaponskill.

I would make the following changes to our weaponskills:
10 - Shield Break: Increased Magical Accuracy for en-Evasion Down
40 - Iron Tempest: No change
70 - Sturmwind: Make it scale with TP as the description says, remove the funkiness that makes both of its hits 100% accurate when Sneak Attacked.
100 - Armor Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
150 - Keen Edge: Increase STR mod to 50%, double the crit boost
175 - Weapon Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
200 - Raging Rush: No changes
225 - Full Break: Increased Magical Accuracy
240 - Steel Cyclone: No changes
300 - Fell Cleave: No changes
lv75 - King's Justice: I'd increase first-hit fTP to 1.5 and have it scale up to 2.5, but this could also just be left alone.
lv85 - Ukko's Fury: No changes
Agree, agree, agree.

These are the moderate changes that would make the full list Great Axe weapon skills much, much better overall than they currently are, while not making things overpowered.

Increased accuracy / lowered resist rates is what the Break WS could best benefit from. Break WS should not be so powerful that they obsolete debuff spells, but they do need a boost to make them worth using, and improved (debuff) accuracy is probably the thing that does that best.

kingfury

05-13-2011, 02:20 AM

Just FYI, sturmwind can do 2000 damage at level 90. So i guess that means you're satisfied!
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Yeah I've done some great numbers playing around with it ^^ so yeah my point is "should" such a low lvl damaging ws hold the potential to do such damage. My answer is yes.

Mirage

05-13-2011, 02:27 AM

And it does, so what exactly are you complaining about. However, who in their right mind would use a 2k damage WS when they can use a 4k+ damage ws (raging rush)

kingfury

05-13-2011, 02:36 AM

@Byrth:
Again Byrth, I don't mean to steal the thunder from higher lvl ws's, since I believe they should in fact hold unique damage factors apart from lower level ws. Like Ukko's is perfect for what it is in terms of being a giant amongst damaging ws and having such a great aftermath, so I agree it's fine just the way it is. Since we have multiple "damaging ws's" in our lists however, I just want those ws's to not be worthless should a player choose to use it.

The whole argument of "Why even use it when you could just spam Ukko's" is one that I really can't defend in terms of how the game is currently. It truly would make more sense if we just had one main ws listed for "damaging ws's" in our list as we acquired the newest one in the line as we increased our combat skills vs having a list full of weaker ws's not worthy of touching. My point and question to the Devs is if we do have the choice to pick from a number of ws's to cause damage with, shouldn't each of them hold the same "potential" to cause high amounts of damage? The similar question for Break ws's; why would we use these enfeebling ws over our most powerful damaging ws's if their return does not outweigh the alternative.

So there's no real argument in terms of tweaks to the forgotten ws's that collect dust in our lists, and your suggestions would be cool to see.

kingfury

05-13-2011, 02:42 AM

And it does, so what exactly are you complaining about. However, who in their right mind would use a 2k damage WS when they can use a 4k+ damage ws (raging rush)
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Uh... no, no, I'm not complaining about anything in regards to this statement... I'm making a point. Aannnnnddd your question is actually what's being debated currently... it's kind've the issue I'm addressing with a possible more evenly balanced ws's scaling system that allows all damaging ws's to hold high damaging potential. Not make them equal, but give them the potential to cause high damage with the proper Mod stacking and such.

Kimble

05-13-2011, 03:44 AM

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Uh... no, no, I'm not complaining about anything in regards to this statement... I'm making a point. Aannnnnddd your question is actually what's being debated currently... it's kind've the issue I'm addressing with a possible more evenly balanced ws's scaling system that allows all damaging ws's to hold high damaging potential. Not make them equal, but give them the potential to cause high damage with the proper Mod stacking and such.

What you want is impossible to do though.

kingfury

05-13-2011, 06:53 AM

What you want is impossible to do though.
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/stagger Based on what?? The current game code?

Again I'll say, we're talking about the reprogramming of game code. We're not talking about picking up a mountain with one hand tied behind your back here. What on earth brings some of you to think anything is "impossible" for these game Developers baffles me.

Multiple times, I've seen this very game company say, more inventory space is not feasible, and multiple times the same company has made it possible again and again.

They are the makers of the game code and formulas you all are so in love with and loyal to, and it's completely in their power to alter, change, rearrange, or remove any code they want. Nothing is impossible for them in regards to this game, and unless you're standing over the shoulder of the Dev team's programming members as they struggle to figure out how this concept would be possible, I would advise reserving such a judgment for the Devs themselves. Not saying you HAVE to, but it would be much wiser. ^^

Greatguardian

05-13-2011, 07:09 AM

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/stagger Based on what?? The current game code?

Again I'll say, we're talking about the reprogramming of game code. We're not talking about picking up a mountain with one hand tied behind your back here. What on earth brings some of you to think anything is "impossible" for these game Developers baffles me.

Yes we are.

They are the makers of the game code and formulas you all are so in love with and loyal to, and it's completely in their power to alter, change, rearrange, or remove any code they want. Nothing is impossible, and unless you're standing over the shoulder of the Dev team's programming members as they struggle to figure out how this concept would be possible, I would advise reserving such a judgment for the Devs themselves. Not saying you HAVE to, but it would be much wiser. ^^

Think of the game's coding like a monstrous pyramid. The code has a fundamental base which is built upon to define progressively more functions. "Normal" changes to the game occur in the very peak of this pyramid, using the existing groundwork below it. These tweaks are relatively easy to implement, because they were designed to be adjusted and messed with.

Changes on the scale what you want would occur significantly lower in the pyramid, affecting not only the layer that its on but every single layer above it. That's not to mention the fact that the lower layers are increasingly large and difficult to adjust/predict/manage. One wrong step and you can make Auto-Attacking cause popstars to fly out your character's fists or, significantly more likely, simply cause the entire game to cease functioning.

You have to remember that FFXI is not "In Development". They do not have the resources that were devoted to it when the massive pyramid foundation for the game was being created, and even then said pyramid took years of work to create. Programmers are not magic just because they potentially have access to the game's source code. In fact, it's not even outside the realm of possibility to say that the current Devs may lack full access to the underlying code as well. It is far more likely that they are simply working with the game's Toolkit, which was designed to utilize the game's underlying code and only make adjustments at the peak level.

Toolkits let you plug in stats. They don't let you change what those stats mean.

Mirage

05-13-2011, 07:39 AM

Zyeriis

05-13-2011, 07:51 AM

But kingfury, just to clarify what it is you want. Do you want all damage-only WSes to have practically identical damage output at any given level? If so, what would be the point in that? Just being able to see different WS animations?

If you don't want them to have identical damage output, people won't use any WS but the strongest of the ones at their disposal, even if this is just a difference of 10% damage. If I can get 4000 damage with Iron Tempest (lol), 4500 damage with Sturmwind, 5000 damage with Keen Edge (rofl), and 5500 damage with Raging Rush, how exactly does this make anything different? Everyone with half a brain cell will still use Raging Rush, no one with half a brain cell will use any of the others. This is exactly like the current situation.

It is in the nature of games like these that new skills obsolete old skills. New spells obsolete old spells. New gear obsoletes old gear. Why should weaponskills be any different? I'm not seeing any black mages complaining that their Thunder II is severely outdamaged by Burst II. In fact, there is a ton of skills that warriors get that is actually never obsoleted. Berserk is one, warcry is another, and let's not forget about provoke! Now that's an ability with a lot of mileage. We have many things that aren't obsoleted, why does every skill we get have to be relevant all the way to the top?

Furthermore, these WSes are still useful in level capped events, such as BCNM fights and level synced parties. So it's not like they never see any use anymore.

Eh, going to have to disagree with almost all of that. I like how you avoided comparing thunder ii to thunder iv and used burst ii instead. That's all that need be said there, other than that's is a horribad example (as spells are divided into tiers and weaponskills are not, same for job abililities).

Backtrack to "no one with half a brain cell will use any of the others". You're right but the people with more brain cells than that will realize the benefit of an enfeeble over a measly 500 dmg (when you're doing 5k+ dmg). Take Great katana weaponskills for example: Is Tachi: Yukikaze useless because it does less damage than Gekko (in general)? No, it causes blind and can be used in skillchaining. Is Tachi: Kasha useless because it does less damage than Gekko (in general)? No, it causes paralyze and be used in skillchaining. Only an idiot would use nothing but the most damaging ws just because it does 500 more damage over situationally using a slightly weaker weaponskill that can enfeeble the enemy. These weaponskills still maintain value even faced with relic and emp weaponskills because they do a decent (though not as great) amount of damage and enfeeble the enemy (which, in the end, is more detrimental to the enemy).

I'm not saying I agree with king that everything needs to be scaled up but, your post is so wrong it hurts.

Greatguardian

05-13-2011, 07:53 AM

That's just a matter of quantifying the benefit you get from the enfeeble. If you don't add more damage by enfeebling the mob than you would by using a stronger weaponskill, it's still useless.

Same reason it's generally a total waste for Dancers to use their Steps and for Drks and Plds to cast Enlight/Endark mid-fight.

kingfury

05-13-2011, 09:27 AM

Think of the game's coding like a monstrous pyramid. The code has a fundamental base which is built upon to define progressively more functions. "Normal" changes to the game occur in the very peak of this pyramid, using the existing groundwork below it. These tweaks are relatively easy to implement, because they were designed to be adjusted and messed with.
Changes on the scale what you want would occur significantly lower in the pyramid, affecting not only the layer that its on but every single layer above it. That's not to mention the fact that the lower layers are increasingly large and difficult to adjust/predict/manage. One wrong step and you can make Auto-Attacking cause popstars to fly out your character's fists or, significantly more likely, simply cause the entire game to cease functioning.
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First off, thanks for the great description and example here.
Second, I assume you do realize that nothing you've pointed out or describe here actually denies the point I made above about anything being "impossible to change" in this game. Difficult maybe, but not impossible. At best, you've offered some very interesting assumptions about what could be plaguing the current Dev Team in regards to heavy changes to the game as a whole, but nothing that would prove true the "impossible to change anything" logic. That being said, I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND what you've described here in terms of how the game code could be formatted and the challenges that come with major changes at this point in the game. I truly do understand it, but lets take a look back down memory lane right fast.

Would you agree that the Experience Point system is among one of those fundamental foundation levels you speak of in your pyramid example? It certainly is a tree of code that has it's roots and connections into just about every aspect of FFXI from day one to now. Now, I'm using this particular topic as an example because of the amount of connections it has throughout the game, similar to the concept of altering the systems that govern the power of our ws's as we rise in level. It would be no small feat to tweak such a system, and I understand that.

I've lost track of how many times the EXP system has been adjusted, but I want to say at least 3 times including the most recent adjustment packaged with the May update. The most notable change to this system came a few years ago, when SE used a virtual knife to carve a smoother EXP curve overall. Forever changing the system into something that was far more balanced in comparison to what veteran players had to deal with. Thus changing one of the most defining aspects of the entire game. They've again revisited this system to further tweak it in a continuing effort to balance it for all who play:

"Experience point penalties when KO’d will be eased for characters level 75 and below.
At levels 1–30, the penalty will be removed entirely. At levels 31–75, the amount of XP lost will be lowered as indicated in the chart below."(copied from the May version update page. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/7267))

Now unless you don't agree that the EXP system is a heavy one, I hope this example shows the Devs willingness to allocate the appropriate resources to adjust ANY system small or large that is hurting gameplay.

You have to remember that FFXI is not "In Development". They do not have the resources that were devoted to it when the massive pyramid foundation for the game was being created, and even then said pyramid took years of work to create.--Toolkits let you plug in stats. They don't let you change what those stats mean.
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Well... I can't say that I understand this sentiment you've expressed here. We have 9 more levels to achieve and in case you missed it, (copied from The The FINAL FANTASY XI roadmap for the twelve-month period commencing April 2011 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/4937)):

-"The level cap will be raised to 95 and accompanied by a broad range of changes; new content and job abilities will be added, and existing ones adjusted. This penultimate stage in the level cap increase will usher in large-scale changes while preserving balance in anticipation of the impending final rise to level 99."

Unless you don't believe them, or have a different definition of what "Large-scale changes" mean, I'm not sure I follow you're point that they are not in development. All in all, my point still stands, that unless we hear SE say something like, "Due to the decreasing resources for FFXI Online, we will no longer be performing Large scale adjustments to this game. Only Small scale adjustments will commence from this point on. Thank you for playing.", I'm going to reserve such assumptions about their resources.

Thanks for the feedback /

kingfury

05-13-2011, 10:41 AM

It sounds as if you've come in to the conversation a bit late Mirage, and that's understandable based on the fact that this is a 200+ post thread at this point. ^^ These points have been discussed earlier in this thread, so I'll do the leg work to go back and post links to the appropriate ones for ya.

But kingfury, just to clarify what it is you want. Do you want all damage-only WSes to have practically identical damage output at any given level? If so, what would be the point in that? Just being able to see different WS animations? If you don't want them to have identical damage output, people won't use any WS but the strongest of the ones at their disposal, even if this is just a difference of 10% damage. If I can get 4000 damage with Iron Tempest (lol), 4500 damage with Sturmwind, 5000 damage with Keen Edge (rofl), and 5500 damage with Raging Rush, how exactly does this make anything different? Everyone with half a brain cell will still use Raging Rush, no one with half a brain cell will use any of the others. This is exactly like the current situation.
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This is something I just addressed a few post ago. I'm actually asking the Devs the same question. To clarify my opinion on the topic of scaleable ws effectiveness along with our rising levels, since we do have a list of multiple damaging ws's at our disposal, yes, I believe these ws's should all hold the potential to do have variable high damage numbers. No ws should ever be so exact as to say you'll always hit 5k damage in my opinion, but different ws conditions that determine the ws's effectiveness should continue to play a role in differentiating damaging ws's from one another. "Chance of Critical hit" for example is a random modifier that will occasionally yield spike damage compared to a damaging ws that doesn't have such a modifier.

I say keep such things, just allow those none critical ws's to be boosted in a way that makes them a fair contender amongst our damaging ws choices. If all my damaging ws's could do powerful damage based on correctly Modifying them at my lvl 90, then yes, I personally would alternate between them during play just for the freedom of choice to do so. Though, I agree that each damaging ws should have something that makes it unique from one another either from aftermath effects or the possible enfeebles they impose on a target.

Posted by Kingfury:"The whole argument of "Why even use it when you could just spam Ukko's" is one that I really can't defend in terms of how the game is currently. It truly would make more sense if we just had one main ws listed for "damaging ws's" in our list as we acquired the newest one in the line as we increased our combat skills vs having a list full of weaker ws's not worthy of touching. My point and question to the Devs is if we do have the choice to pick from a number of ws's to cause damage with, shouldn't each of them hold the same "potential" to cause high amounts of damage? The similar question for Break ws's; why would we use these enfeebling ws over our most powerful damaging ws's if their return does not outweigh the alternative."

It is in the nature of games like these that new skills obsolete old skills. New spells obsolete old spells. New gear obsoletes old gear. Why should weaponskills be any different? I'm not seeing any black mages complaining that their Thunder II is severely outdamaged by Burst II. In fact, there is a ton of skills that warriors get that is actually never obsoleted. Berserk is one, warcry is another, and let's not forget about provoke! Now that's an ability with a lot of mileage. We have many things that aren't obsoleted, why does every skill we get have to be relevant all the way to the top?
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This was back on page 12. It explains my stance on why I believe WS's should be just as scaleable as JA's:

Posted by Kingfury: "But look back to the "ever growing and evolving Player". Job abilities, Spells, and weapon skills really shouldn't fit in the same category as the above mentioned items in my opinion. I believe they should be just as scaleable and ever-growing as we are because they are tied to our growth as players. Players don't receive new weapons/gear once they've leveled up or acquired enough skill using a weapon, but they do receive new weapon skills and job abilities. It's not that they can't be made to be scaleable. With the similar logic of what was put into the Trial of the Magians system, technically speaking the Devs could /toss out things like spell tiers all together and have stuff like "STONE(+1-6)", and "CURE(+1-6)" in an effort to make such things scaleable as we increase in level and grow more powerful. The "Merit Point System" was in essence a very simplified Trial of the Magian system for JA's if you think about it. You had to go out and do stuff (gain exp) to then return to the system and "turn in" your required currency (merit points) to improve your JA's. So if you see it as it would be seen via the Trial of the Magians system, it would look like "Berserk+2" and "Double Attack+5" and so on. One of the biggest problems with the Merit Point system in fact was that we didn't get to pick from a list of all our abilities when deciding which JA we wanted to enhance. The same goes for the TotM weapons. The Devs decided for us.

Take Berserk for instance. It's a level 15 JA that still has use at level 90. That's scaleability right there lol, and it's as it should be as far as I'm concerned. Weaponskills should be just as scaleable right? Not to say that one ws is "more useful" than the other, cause that would warrant change to the game if things are non useful, but rather have "different uses" during battle.-- (link to the entire post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5971-Please-Rework-FULL-BREAK-S-effectiveness-other-GA-ws-s-like-it-DEV-TEAM-wave?p=82880&viewfull=1#post82880))

Furthermore, these WSes are still useful in level capped events, such as BCNM fights and level synced parties. So it's not like they never see any use anymore.
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They could still be useful after such an adjustment, but just have a more balanced system behind them. Still able to skillchain and so forth, yet the damage would be more scaled to level.

Mirage

05-13-2011, 07:53 PM

Eh, going to have to disagree with almost all of that. I like how you avoided comparing thunder ii to thunder iv and used burst ii instead. That's all that need be said there, other than that's is a horribad example (as spells are divided into tiers and weaponskills are not, same for job abililities).

Backtrack to "no one with half a brain cell will use any of the others". You're right but the people with more brain cells than that will realize the benefit of an enfeeble over a measly 500 dmg (when you're doing 5k+ dmg). Take Great katana weaponskills for example: Is Tachi: Yukikaze useless because it does less damage than Gekko (in general)? No, it causes blind and can be used in skillchaining. Is Tachi: Kasha useless because it does less damage than Gekko (in general)? No, it causes paralyze and be used in skillchaining. Only an idiot would use nothing but the most damaging ws just because it does 500 more damage over situationally using a slightly weaker weaponskill that can enfeeble the enemy. These weaponskills still maintain value even faced with relic and emp weaponskills because they do a decent (though not as great) amount of damage and enfeeble the enemy (which, in the end, is more detrimental to the enemy).

I'm not saying I agree with king that everything needs to be scaled up but, your post is so wrong it hurts.

My examples specifically dealt with WSes that were for damage only. I didn't bring WSes with status effects into the mix exactly because those are situational.

So regarding my actual point, would you use Keen Edge if Raging Rush consistently dealt more damage?

Should Keen Edge and Raging Rush on average deal exactly the same damage? Cause if not, one is going to be inarguably better than the other, and that WS is the one people will choose when wanting to deal the most damage possible.

Leonlionheart

05-13-2011, 08:14 PM

kingfury

05-13-2011, 10:57 PM

Holy crap can you guys talk. I'd rather not read the book that is this thread.
I actually use full break all the time, because I almost always have over 100% TP and at the start of a fight and there's no need for Ukko's.
No idea how it works, don't really care. Assuming it reduces evasion like in the description of shield break, it'll help procs for those who don't have capped skill. If someone brings to my attention that it doesn't, I'll just use shield break.
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lol ^^ Yeah, it's been a lot of convo's throughout /stagger

Well, here's how Full Break works currently - Full Break (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Full_Break)

and the issue this thread is addressing is that it would be nice to see better returns in terms of effectiveness and visual feedback from the ws and the other Break ws's like it. Of course after getting word that the Devs are in fact planning on adjusting lots of ws's across the board Break ws's included, the conversation has shifted to the design logic of having multiple ws's that are either under powered or not as effective when you generally only use your most powerful ws in nearly every battle situation.

Leonlionheart

05-13-2011, 11:19 PM

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lol ^^ Yeah, it's been a lot of convo's throughout /stagger

Well, here's how Full Break works currently - Full Break (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Full_Break)

and the issue this thread is addressing is that it would be nice to see better returns in terms of effectiveness and visual feedback from the ws and the other Break ws's like it. Of course after getting word that the Devs are in fact planning on adjusting lots of ws's across the board Break ws's included, the conversation has shifted to the design logic of having multiple ws's that are either under powered or not as effective when you generally only use your most powerful ws in nearly every battle situation.

Well those debuffs already seem more than good enough.

As for visual effects, you'd have to revamp every other weaponskill to show balance. Pretty much everything in the game pre-WotG is actually pretty dull in terms of graphics, with the exception of some specific things.

The only way you'll get people to use something other than their best WS is to make them better in certain situations, or have different TP costs, or have one that doesn't generate enmity or greatly reduces your enmity on the hate list. Until the game shifts from PROC -> ZERG ZERG ZERG I don't see it changing.

Greatguardian

05-13-2011, 11:26 PM

Full Break is already useful. Try taking on Neo-Xarcabard NMs without a Bard or Corsair. Let me know how high your accuracy and cRatio values are. As a near-perfect geared Verethragna MNK, next to a near-perfect geared Masamune SAM and a significantly-above-average geared Almace BLU, we could barely scratch some of them without support. 600 dmg VSmite > 600 dmg Fudo > wait, the BLU WS'ing would require it hitting enough to get TP.

Break WS are good on things that are stronger than the player. When things are weak, you don't use them. When things are strong, it's already extremely powerful and doesn't really need to be buffed. This update included things which are stronger than the player. Problem solved.

Volkai

05-13-2011, 11:56 PM

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lol ^^ Yeah, it's been a lot of convo's throughout /stagger

Well, here's how Full Break works currently - Full Break (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Full_Break)

I fixed your link, it goes to the proper wiki now.
(Gamerescape > FFXIWikia)

Byrth

05-14-2011, 12:04 AM

The problem with Full Break isn't its potency, it's the low probability that it will land on any monster that you want those debuffs for. Also, it should be noted that the single-debuff Break WSs are reported to give a larger debuff (Armor Break is reported at -25% DEF compared to Full Break's -12.5% DEF).

So if you're doing it for damage in Abyssea, you should really be using Armor Break instead of Full.

Leonlionheart

05-15-2011, 09:01 AM

Byrth

05-15-2011, 12:03 PM

Wiki claims 40.

Volkai

05-15-2011, 09:17 PM

So then how much eva- is shield break? Would definitely help me proc on that damn scythe.

Great Axe Weapon Skills (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Category:Great_Axes#Weapon_Skills)

Shield Break (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Shield_Break)
Skill level: 5
Lowers enemy's Evasion. Duration of effect varies with TP.

Lowers Evasion by as much as 40 if unresisted.
Strong against: Bees, Beetles, Birds, Crabs, Crawlers, Flies, Lizards, Mandragora, Opo-opo, Pugils, Sabotenders, Scorpions, Sea Monks, Spiders, Tonberry, Yagudo.
Immune: Bombs, Gigas, Ghosts, Sheep, Skeletons, Tigers.

Full Break (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Full_Break)
Skill level: 225 (Warriors only.)
Lowers enemy's attack, defense, accuracy, and evasion. Duration of effect varies with TP.

Lowers attack and defense by 12.5%, evasion by 20 points, and estimated to also lower accuracy by 20 points.
These enfeebles are given as four seperate status effects, resists calculated seperately for each. They almost always wear off simultaneously, but have been observed to wear off at different times.
Strong against: Coeurls.
Immune: Antica, Cockatrice, Crawlers, Worms.

Byrth

05-15-2011, 09:31 PM

It's half of all the individual WS bonuses combined into one weaponskill.
Shield Break: Eva -40
Armor Break: DEF -25%
Weapon Break: Atk-25%
Full Break: Eva-20, DEF/ATK-12.5%

In most situations that you're considering using a break, you're really using it to decrease one specific stat. Because the weaponskills do such terrible damage anyway, you should probably use the version with the most potent debuff instead of Full.

kingfury

10-06-2012, 02:13 PM

After speaking to the development team about this, they confirmed that they're planning adjustments for a wide variety of weapon skills, which will include the break-related WS, too. :)
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/Kneel to the great Community Reps

Was feeling nostalgic today and decided to read some old threads (I do that sometimes), and wanted to know if the above weapon skill adjustments have made it to the game yet Camate or could we hope to expect them to hit in the near future?(Seekers of Adoline-ish) Only asking since we've cleared the "Year old thread" status at this point. :)

Any update would great to hear of course /bow

Calatilla

10-07-2012, 02:27 PM

saevel

10-07-2012, 09:08 PM

On a slightly unrelated note, have you ever wondered why WAR never got a weapon bash ability? SAM has one, so does DRK, PLD has shield bash. If a DRK can smack a mob upside the head with a GA, why can't WAR?

Because SE gave Blue Mage Head Butt and WAR can't wield a Tankard with their Great Axe or Wagnarok.

Would love to see an ability where the WAR just screams at the mob and it's Stunned / Terrored.

kingfury

10-08-2012, 04:10 AM

On a slightly unrelated note, have you ever wondered why WAR never got a weapon bash ability? SAM has one, so does DRK, PLD has shield bash. If a DRK can smack a mob upside the head with a GA, why can't WAR?
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I've asked this question every single time I've seen another player using a bash ability lol. Would love to hear a response from the Devs about the reasoning behind this.
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Because SE gave Blue Mage Head Butt and WAR can't wield a Tankard with their Great Axe or Wagnarok.

Would love to see an ability where the WAR just screams at the mob and it's Stunned / Terrored.
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"War Bellow" I'll take it!!

bel·low/ˈbelō/
Verb:
(of a person or animal) Emit a deep loud roar, typically in pain or anger: "he bellowed in agony"; "the bellowing of a bull".
Noun:
A deep roaring shout or sound.

Demon6324236

10-08-2012, 05:38 AM

I think he was making a reference to Feral Howl. :x

Karbuncle

10-08-2012, 11:05 AM

I was thinking Feral Howl too lol. Was like "There's already an ability like that".

kingfury

10-08-2012, 09:18 PM

I think he was making a reference to Feral Howl. :x

I was thinking Feral Howl too lol. Was like "There's already an ability like that".
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Right, in approval of Saevel's suggestion I was suggesting a name for the new would be Warrior ability equivalent (War Bellow) :) Then I just popped in the definition for "bellow".

Ophannus

10-09-2012, 01:02 AM

On a slightly unrelated note, have you ever wondered why WAR never got a weapon bash ability? SAM has one, so does DRK, PLD has shield bash. If a DRK can smack a mob upside the head with a GA, why can't WAR?

DRG is more likely to get a bash than WAR. DRK SAM PLD DRG are the 4 'knight' jobs. Knight Jobs are categorized by jobs that gain a Killer trait at 25, a Circle JA at lv 5, a breaker at 90 and usually a bash ability. DRG doesn't get a bash but we get Jumps, though they don't stun. I always wanted a Pommel Bash(Weapon Bashing with a Polearm looks awesome cuz it's like a rifle butt with the blunt end of the lance)

Rieul

10-09-2012, 05:46 AM

Because they have Leg Sweep?

Mirage

10-09-2012, 07:30 AM

Not sure exactly what you mean by that question, but if it was a reason for them to not get a stun: Paladins have flat blade, and still get a -bash JA.

Demon6324236

10-09-2012, 10:34 AM

But they bash with their shield, doesn't count :P

Kristal

10-09-2012, 05:18 PM

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Right, in approval of Saevel's suggestion I was suggesting a name for the new would be Warrior ability equivalent (War Bellow) :) Then I just popped in the definition for "bellow".

Why a new ability though? Why not make it a lvl 99 trait that augments Provoke with an occasional Terror effect? Or extend Savagery so it sometimes inflicts Terror on Provoke as well.

Demon6324236

10-09-2012, 05:47 PM

Calatilla

10-09-2012, 10:15 PM

I just think in regards to WAR having a heavy 2 handed GA they should be able to stun the mob by smacking them across the face with it, like DRK and SAM can. And I agree DRG should probably be on the list too, but are Polearms considered that heavy a weapon? At least they have a stun ws, war doesn't unless using a smaller/weaker single hand axe.

tyrantsyn

10-10-2012, 12:35 AM

When it comes to the break WS, it would be nice if they were added to the battle/chat log window when they are resisted, applied or wear off.

Mirage

10-10-2012, 12:41 AM

Now this I agree with.

kingfury

10-10-2012, 10:34 AM

Why a new ability though? Why not make it a lvl 99 trait that augments Provoke with an occasional Terror effect? Or extend Savagery so it sometimes inflicts Terror on Provoke as well.
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It would be better used as a separate Job Ability in my opinion since a WAR could then conserve the use of it until just the right moment and still be able to Provoke freely afterward if needed. We could suggest that a WAR specific Terror/Stun-like bash Job ability also generates enmity but I would want such an ability separate so not to clutter the use of my Provoke.

If I could add anything to Provoke it would be another tier like Provoke 2 or Provokega. Area of effect Provoke... yes please.

Shadowsong

10-10-2012, 01:37 PM

Has anyone told Kingfury that emotes only work in the game? I want to stab my eyes out whenever I see him "/stagger"

Mirage

10-10-2012, 06:00 PM

They don't? /shock
I am truly /staggered by this revelation.

Anyway on topic:

If anyone should get an aoe provoke, it's paladin, not warrior. Perhaps Flashga would be more appropriate, however.

Byrth

10-10-2012, 10:50 PM

AOE provoke would be useful for nothing at all. Learn to supertank (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Supertank). Retaliations (and counters) don't put you on the hate list, so you can even kill monsters without getting on their hate list. If you want to build hate on multiple targets, Fell Cleave is going to be much more effective than Provokega.

kingfury

10-11-2012, 12:21 AM

Has anyone told Kingfury that emotes only work in the game? I want to stab my eyes out whenever I see him "/stagger"
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lol I think I've responded to this comment before, but the simple answer is so long as I'm using them among folks that play FFXI, they work just fine here on these boards. They would make no sense at all to another gaming community that has a completely different set (or syntax) of emote commands, but everyone here on these boards know and understand them. Beyond that it's just personal preference when using/not using them outside of the game. For me, it's sometimes easier to just respond via the emotes I've used for the last 9 years when responding versus having to describe something in detail. I'm sorry the use of them agitate you so though...

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They don't? /shock
I am truly /staggered by this revelation.

Anyway on topic:

If anyone should get an aoe provoke, it's paladin, not warrior. Perhaps Flashga would be more appropriate, however.
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I agree with both of those suggestions for PLD actually, but would still want WAR to get an AOE Provoke too.

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AOE provoke would be useful for nothing at all. Learn to supertank (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Supertank). Retaliations (and counters) don't put you on the hate list, so you can even kill monsters without getting on their hate list. If you want to build hate on multiple targets, Fell Cleave is going to be much more effective than Provokega.
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Yeah Supertanking is cool when certain situations allow it, no doubt, but even after the sexy Fell Cleave was birthed there are still instances where 1 or more of the monsters can be missed by the weapon skill (just one of those random things really) and dart off to the healer and cause the WAR to have to run around with 5+ monsters just to whack it back into the group, or cycle through the group to target it for a direct Provoke. That gets messy when you're dealing with lots of monsters.

Though there is the infamous "hate reset" garbage that burns my soul with a unique brand of hatred where even after you have spent a good weapon skill to the face of the monster and used a timely Provoke, things can still get messy. I personally wouldn't mind an AOE Provoke that could be a tad stronger than the 1st one to fall back on is all.

Are there ways around this problem, of course there are, but like I said they're just not as clean as a new Provoke would be most times if you're dealing with stragglers.