[dev1010] Job Adjustments - VIT Adjustment and THF

[Eeek]

I created this thread to address an adjustment listed in the Job Adjustments notice.

"VIT will play a role in calculating damage taken from critical hits."

Before I, and other THFs wise to the implication of this adjustment, start to over-react, I do have a question for the Community Team and Dev Team:

Will this upcoming adjustment apply only to players who take critical hit damage, or worse, will this adjustment affect the critical hit damage taken players and mobs?

I ask this mainly because I, and many others, enjoy playing THF, and this upcoming adjustment to VIT could have quite the detrimental effect on THF's ability to deal damage. THF has always been one of the weaker melee jobs, and this adjustment to VIT does us no favors.

In fact, the upcoming adjustment to THF serves to weaken the job. Aside from enmity control and Treasure Hunter, a THFs approach to dealing damage relies upon dealing critical hits. This adjustment is a direct nerf to the damage-dealing capacity of two to THFs trademark Job Abilities: Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.

The adjustment's damage to THF goes beyond just Sneak Attack and Trick Attack. THFs need to use Sneak Attack and/or Trick Attack in conjunction with several of our weaponskills in order for them to deal reasonable damage. These weaponskills include Shark Bite, Mandalic Stab, Mercy Stroke, and Rudra's Storm (among others). Yes, THF's relic, mythic, and empyrean weaponskills will all be weakened by this update.

I guess the release of Abyssea and its Atmas were too good to be true. Atma combinations such as Razed Ruins, Gnarled Horn, and Apocalypse 'fixed' THF. We finally could contribute reasonable damage to normal mobs and NMs, and our friends finally allowed us to actually fight said mobs.

Oh well. it was fun while it lasted.

Oh, I have one final question for the Development Team. I have already acquired Thief's Knife, Assassin's Armlets, and Raider's Poulaines +2 for my THF. Should I, and all other THFs, even bother to gear our beloved THF beyond these three items?

Because it sure doesn't seem so.

[ShadowHeart]

nah u can toss those and lvl corsair for bounty shot at 1 shot / min well u can see a line up of corsairs around a mob now :s

thief are really gonna become extinct again ... back to our solo jobs :(

[Andylynn]

I would just wait until we get an official explaination as to what they mean before jumping to conclusions. Might save some unnecessary heartache.

[Eeek]

I would just wait until we get an official explaination as to what they mean before jumping to conclusions. Might save some unnecessary heartache.

True, but I guess I'm in the mood to jump out in front of the QQ brigade on this one.

Adjustments like this upcoming one to VIT generally tend to affect mobs and players across the board, so I'm hoping for some confirmation on whether or not this will be the case.

[Andylynn]

True, but I guess I'm in the mood to jump out in front of the QQ brigade on this one.

Adjustments like this upcoming one to VIT generally tend to affect mobs and players across the board, so I'm hoping for some confirmation on whether or not this will be the case.

Remember how last update, they made AGI affect subtle blow, maybe itll reduce dmg taken from crits on players?

[Fearforever]

I'm dreading what it's going to do to Blade: Hi dmg and NIN's overall, NIN's damage is mainly from non-stop Crit hits with RR/GH/Apoc atmas...if VIT lowers our dmg we'll start sucking and losing the ability to hold hate again.

[Andylynn]

I'm dreading what it's going to do to Blade: Hi dmg and NIN's overall, NIN's damage is mainly from non-stop Crit hits with RR/GH/Apoc atmas...if VIT lowers our dmg we'll start sucking and losing the ability to hold hate again.

Like I said, calm down, and wait for more clarification. As for HI I don't think it'll hurt it much, it already does above and beyond most ws.

[Cream_Soda]

Remember how last update, they made AGI affect subtle blow, maybe itll reduce dmg taken from crits on players?
Half certain that works on both sides

[Fearforever]

I hope theres more job adjustments to come, if not this isn't many... where's the love for RDM, PLD & SCH having Cure V?

[Runespider]

Remember how last update, they made AGI affect subtle blow, maybe itll reduce dmg taken from crits on players?

Battle system is used by mobs and players alike usually, if they change something for players the mobs get it too. Hence why there is a pretty good chance this will be a crit nerf.

[Malamasala]

Seems to me like this is SE's attempt at making PLD more popular. I have no idea if it will have any effect at all, since in general MNKs and WARs have plenty VIT as well.

[Jalonis]

Seems to me like this is SE's attempt at making PLD more popular. I have no idea if it will have any effect at all, since in general MNKs and WARs have plenty VIT as well.

And of course good ninja/dancer/thf tanks don't get hit to get critted anyway.

[Tamoa]

If this update ends up with people stacking the +VIT, I'll laugh. I believe Eeek might be right, this will affect jobs which rely on crit hit weaponskills (and regular attacks too) for damage/hate. Maybe it's an attempt from SE to try and bring more balance to DD jobs (i.e. the DD jobs whose weaponskills can't crit), I have no idea. And if it is, I guess we'll just have to wait and see how much of an impact it will have. Have mixed feelings about this. :/

[Seriha]

Hard for me to get upset about this without seeing numbers. If it's a pure AGI comparison like the Subtle Blow stuff, maybe any kind of difference 30 or greater will see no change. Meanwhile, if under that, it might turn into 2 VIT for every -1 CDMG% if below. Also unsure if merely boosting +ATK could help offset this as people are rarely capped without BRDs or CORs around and the idea that food "isn't needed" in Abyssea.

[Wojo]

RR is so overpowered and unbalanced that anyone in Abyssea MUST use this atma all the time. Anything else is completely rediculous.

Still unclear how this changes will impact the game though.

[Rambus]

hope it is only mob > player.

the vit and crt hit makes no sence, this does not help blood tanking...

I would rather them not change this.

is any testing done before ti gets to the players?

[Runespider]

Square like to build jobs up to bandwagon status then knock them down, they have done it quite a few times. This could very well end up being a major crit nerf for war/mnk/thief/nin.

Great way to make all your bandwagon players go level other jobs and gear those up, remember how rng used to be the most broken job in the game?

Calling it now, they will decimate crit ws.

[Anewie]

I think some of you are way overeacting... I mean, really? Just wait please and stop the whining.

[scaevola]

If this update ends up with people stacking the +VIT, I'll laugh.

Or they could just finish the Sandoria WotG questline if they are that scared of crits :(

[Swords]

I do not believe a whole lot will change with the VIT adjustments I think SE is just wanting to give VIT a bigger role because it's a pretty neglected stat. You probably won't see a noticeable reduction in your critical damage unless its a PLD or MNK type mob, at the same time you might see an increase in crit. damage against Mage type mobs.

[Dallas]

Seems pretty obvious it is an atma nerf. I'm a little disappointed, since blood pacts were also benefitting from crit damage.

[Runespider]

Seems pretty obvious it is an atma nerf. I'm a little disappointed, since blood pacts were also benefitting from crit damage.

I think we all knew it was coming, a well geared thf, mnk or nin with 3 atmas including RR/GH/apoc etc can kill a mob quicker than a whole alliance on XP mobs and on NMs they do so much damage they can tank and keep hate over a spamming healer, a huge part of this is down to crit damage. It's always been the case that if you're having too much fun on a DD job it won't last forever.

[Swords]

IF such a thing does affect the jobs that much, I imagine what happened with RNG after the RA adjustment would happen with those jobs. Everyone will go onto the next bandwagon job while the people who took the job seriously and the really good ones will stay.

[Khajit]

I think we all knew it was coming, a semi decently geared player with half a brain with 3 atmas including RR/GH/apoc etc can kill a mob quicker than a whole alliance on XP mobs and on NMs.

Fixed for you.

[Denabond]

If this works both ways (as in it applies to mobs and players) then yes its basically a direct nerf to mnk,thf, and nin. As well as all the Crit hit WSs. To me, that seems fine as currently all jobs (with RR) that have a crit WS can do an absurd amount of damage. This might even out the DDs a bit, since jobs like drk and sam have been left out due to their lack of a crit WS (although i have no sympathy to the bandwagon Sams after having them rule the DDs with the 2handed weapon update). Pointless to point out, but this will also even out the damage difference between the Relic mnk + nin weapons and the Emp weapons. Of course, this is assuming this applies to mobs.

[Eeek]

If this works both ways (as in it applies to mobs and players) then yes its basically a direct nerf to mnk,thf, and nin. As well as all the Crit hit WSs. To me, that seems fine as currently all jobs (with RR) that have a crit WS can do an absurd amount of damage. This might even out the DDs a bit, since jobs like drk and sam have been left out due to their lack of a crit WS (although i have no sympathy to the bandwagon Sams after having them rule the DDs with the 2handed weapon update). Pointless to point out, but this will also even out the damage difference between the Relic mnk + nin weapons and the Emp weapons. Of course, this is assuming this applies to mobs.

Why is this fine?

While Abyssea is currently the post popular content, the vast majority of the game's zones, content, and (likely) future content are outside of Abyssea's 9 main zones.

Since the 2007 update to 2-handed weapons, 1-handed DDs like THF, DNC, NIN, and so on have been forcibly shoved aside in favor of jobs like SAM and WAR. Abyssea allowed the 1-handed DDs a chance to shine in Abyssea, and apparently it's big problem for such jobs to leave town and have a chance to shine, prove useful, and have fun.

No, instead we're likely to see a nerf. And this nerf applies everywhere. It's now possible that jobs like THF, NIN, and DNC will leave Abyssea weaker than ever before.

[Catsby]

Any damage dealer reliant on critical hits is going to be impacted by this change if it works for both players and monsters.

[Tamoa]

I'm 99% certain it will work both ways. If not, it's a rather pointless adjustment.

[Byrth]

Step 1: Add Critical Damage bonus trait to most jobs that use Critical weaponskills, but not Dragoon
Step 2: Nerf critical damage.
Step 3: lolDRG

This is all a secret ploy to adjust Drakesbane indirectly.

[Denabond]

Why is this fine?

While Abyssea is currently the post popular content, the vast majority of the game's zones, content, and (likely) future content are outside of Abyssea's 9 main zones.

Since the 2007 update to 2-handed weapons, 1-handed DDs like THF, DNC, NIN, and so on have been forcibly shoved aside in favor of jobs like SAM and WAR. Abyssea allowed the 1-handed DDs a chance to shine in Abyssea, and apparently it's big problem for such jobs to leave town and have a chance to shine, prove useful, and have fun.

No, instead we're likely to see a nerf. And this nerf applies everywhere. It's now possible that jobs like THF, NIN, and DNC will leave Abyssea weaker than ever before.
Chance to shine is one thing, but beating out the 2handed weapon users on both DOT (cause we attack faster) + having our WSs beat thier WS damage isn't just outshining them, its trampling all over them. Does it make sense for a Dnc (who is a hybrid dd/healer) to out DD a Drk(who is a full on DD)? Should a nin (who is considered before as a tank by the playerbase) out DD a Sam? I will say however the only real job that can really complain would be thfs, due to their reliance on crit damage (well maybe Drgs too due to Drakesbane being a crit WS too).

[Karbuncle]

Chance to shine is one thing, but beating out the 2handed weapon users on both DOT (cause we attack faster) + having our WSs beat thier WS damage isn't just outshining them, its trampling all over them. Does it make sense for a Dnc (who is a hybrid dd/healer) to out DD a Drk(who is a full on DD)? Should a nin (who is considered before as a tank by the playerbase) out DD a Sam? I will say however the only real job that can really complain would be thfs, due to their reliance on crit damage (well maybe Drgs too due to Drakesbane being a crit WS too).

Yeah, Your point aside, The option is never ever to Nerf something hard-core everywhere.

If this does apply both ways, THF just became more useless outside Abyssea. cause now SA and TA will likely see severe damage nerfs, so THF's, who already did rather mediocre damage outside abyssea without the help of a Relic/Emp, Will now do even worse numbers on anything meaningful.

You remember back in the day when it was "Touch the mob, go sit in corner?" its cause THF's damage was terrible, Nerfing their biggest DD aspect (SA-WS, TA-WS) is probably an un-thought-out side effect of SE's "Cure the disease by killing the patience" mentality when it comes to small things like this.




....

However, If it doesn't effect Mobs, Or the effect is really small, My entire rant doesn't hold water. So i'll wait til the update rolls around to see just how badly it effects us all. For all we know every ~10vit could gain 1%PDT on Critical hits... Then what... yah D:

[Denabond]

Yeah, Your point aside, The option is never ever to Nerf something hard-core everywhere.

If this does apply both ways, THF just became more useless outside Abyssea. cause now SA and TA will likely see severe damage nerfs, so THF's, who already did rather mediocre damage outside abyssea without the help of a Relic/Emp, Will now do even worse numbers on anything meaningful.

You remember back in the day when it was "Touch the mob, go sit in corner?" its cause THF's damage was terrible, Nerfing their biggest DD aspect (SA-WS, TA-WS) is probably an un-thought-out side effect of SE's "Cure the disease by killing the patience" mentality when it comes to small things like this.




....

However, If it doesn't effect Mobs, Or the effect is really small, My entire rant doesn't hold water. So i'll wait til the update rolls around to see just how badly it effects us all. For all we know every ~10vit could gain 1%PDT on Critical hits... Then what... yah D:
Or they can make it so SA and TA ignores the vit deal. Though I'm not counting on SE to do that.

[Karbuncle]

Or they can make it so SA and TA ignores the vit deal. Though I'm not counting on SE to do that.

Neither am i. When they nerf, They nerf hard.

of course this could not be a nerf. I'm just guessing. Now I have something look forward too with this update, and something to... be fearful of.

[Catsby]

At this point I'm almost certain it's a nerf but I can't understand the reasoning behind it. If the concern was the extreme unbalance in abyssea then simply adjust atmas would have fixed the problem. Outside of abyssea this could protentially ruin 1 handers since they rely on crits to make up for low base damage/attack/acc.

[Catsby]

Neither am i. When they nerf, They nerf hard.


yup. still finding penalties in RNG that were probably put there during the nerf years ago and were never undone. Probably because merits/gear/atmas never existed so it was impossible for people to find them.

[Krisan]

I don't know why you think it's going to apply both ways. Enemy adjustments would be explicitly stated, otherwise it should always be assumed they are only referring to the players. It'd be too considerable a change (it would affect everyone, not just THF) to conveniently leave a detail like that out.

[Karbuncle]

I don't know why you think it's going to apply both ways. Enemy adjustments would be explicitly stated, otherwise it should always be assumed they are only referring to the players. It'd be too considerable a change (it would affect everyone, not just THF) to conveniently leave a detail like that out.

Its because a lot of people today are like "CRIT HIT OR GTFO", A lot of jobs are left out or under-powered cause of this inside Abyssea. Now all the sudden "VIT Effects Critical hit Damage taken", People assume the worse. until a Rep comes in here and says "yah this is a misunderstanding, It only effects players!" I think I'll assume Nerf-City.

Its really hard to remain neutral when the pit of your gut tells you this is a nerf to Critical Hit-Heavy jobs/WS. But I'll try. I can really hope a Rep comes in here and tells us not to worry it only effects Players.

[Tamoa]

Considering the amount of players absolutely SCREAMING across several forums about their non-crit ws jobs being left behind and being outdamaged by a thf or a nin, I'd say it's extremely likely that this is indeed a crit nerf. But at this point it's all speculation and I'm not going to get upset about it until we get more information or we find out for ourselves after the update.

However I would also appreciate it if a Rep would be so kind and give us a little more specific info about this adjustment.

[Dale]

I like the change. Vitality needs to do a little more than it does, and making it decrease damage from criticals sounds like a good way to go. They need to do that or make it add to a character's HP. Something.

Now as far as the "damage dealers" complaining about this, i have little sympathy. It's not like the damage you can put out right now with atmas isn't insane, so having your crit damage nerfed some isn't going to hurt things. As far as theif in particular, you shoudn't be doing huge damage. You are a theif. Your speciality is collecting loot. The facts are you can do nice damage, have crazy evasion and make an exceptional tank against many bosses - I really don't see a significant problem here.

[Krisan]

Its because a lot of people today are like "CRIT HIT OR GTFO", A lot of jobs are left out or under-powered cause of this inside Abyssea. Now all the sudden "VIT Effects Critical hit Damage taken", People assume the worse. until a Rep comes in here and says "yah this is a misunderstanding, It only effects players!" I think I'll assume Nerf-City.

Its really hard to remain neutral when the pit of your gut tells you this is a nerf to Critical Hit-Heavy jobs/WS. But I'll try. I can really hope a Rep comes in here and tells us not to worry it only effects Players.
I just find it extremely unlikely that this is a global enemy-adjustment, something that affects the entire game, and they just simply chose not to include that in the notes. The way it is worded makes it seem that this is just a player-adjustment, but meh.. Resume panicking I guess?

[Karbuncle]

I just find it extremely unlikely that this is a global enemy-adjustment, something that affects the entire game, and they just simply chose not to include that in the notes. The way it is worded makes it seem that this is just a player-adjustment, but meh.. Resume panicking I guess?

I don't believe in Coincidences my good sir. In the day and age of "Crit or gtfo", we suddenly come across a adjustment that directly targets Critical Hit damage, left purposefully vague as to rather it effect player and Enemy, Or just Player.

Its not really a Panic either, Its more of a "Worry". There is a chance this will severely impact my favorite job (THF), So i have the right to be worried?

lets say your Favorite job is WAR, out of nowhere they said "To provide Balance, We're looking into ways to adjust Ukko's Fury, Raging rush, and WAR job Abilities" Would you be like "Fuck yeah! WAR BUFF!" or would you be more like "Oh, This doesn't sound good..."

Its typical for people to be a little worried, as long as they don't go around waving "ITS THE FU*KING WARPOCALYPSE, SELL YOUR RELIC WAR ACCOUNTS, TOSS YOUR UKONVASARAS!!! THE END IS HERE"

Theres a difference between hysteria-panic and "Worry". I'm in the "Worry" stage.

[Krisan]

I don't believe in Coincidences my good sir. In the day and age of "Crit or gtfo", we suddenly come across a adjustment that directly targets Critical Hit damage, left purposefully vague as to rather it effect player and Enemy, Or just Player.

Its not really a Panic either, Its more of a "Worry". There is a chance this will severely impact my favorite job (THF), So i have the right to be worried?

lets say your Favorite job is WAR, out of nowhere they said "To provide Balance, We're looking into ways to adjust Ukko's Fury, Raging rush, and WAR job Abilities" Would you be like "Fuck yeah! WAR BUFF!" or would you be more like "Oh, This doesn't sound good..."

Its typical for people to be a little worried, as long as they don't go around waving "ITS THE FU*KING WARPOCALYPSE, SELL YOUR RELIC WAR ACCOUNTS, TOSS YOUR UKONVASARAS!!! THE END IS HERE"

Theres a difference between hysteria-panic and "Worry". I'm in the "Worry" stage.
Well, it's not unwarranted to ask for clarity, certainly. But I just don't know. I'd honestly lose a bit of respect for SE if this is a global adjustment and they can't be half-assed enough to make that perfectly clear. And yea, I know WHY this would be bad if it is a global-adjustment, and the worry is merited there certainly.. But at the moment I'm relying on the notes for what they say - not what they don't say.

[Karbuncle]

Well, it's not unwarranted to ask for clarity, certainly. But I just don't know. I'd honestly lose a bit of respect for SE if this is a global adjustment and they can't be half-assed enough to make that perfectly clear. And yea, I know WHY this would be bad if it is a global-adjustment, and the worry is merited there certainly.. But at the moment I'm relying on the notes for what they say - not what they don't say.

'tis human nature to worry about the unknown though.

Again, So long as you don't act wildly on it, theres nothing wrong with it.

[Krisan]

'tis human nature to worry about the unknown though.

Again, So long as you don't act wildly on it, theres nothing wrong with it.
Aye, and I hope for everyones sake it doesn't turn out to be as bad as some fear.

[Andylynn]

I think it's way too early to start panic/worry. Even if it is something terrible, we've seen the rise and fall of DDs, rng, ridill war, sam, maybe it's time for a new queen of the playground in se's book?

[Eeek]

Well, it's not unwarranted to ask for clarity, certainly. But I just don't know. I'd honestly lose a bit of respect for SE if this is a global adjustment and they can't be half-assed enough to make that perfectly clear. And yea, I know WHY this would be bad if it is a global-adjustment, and the worry is merited there certainly.. But at the moment I'm relying on the notes for what they say - not what they don't say.

SE did pull a fast one on the players two years ago. In the April 2009 update, which has since been scrubbed clean of any reference to the adjustment on the official site's archive of update notes*, SE adjusted magic resistance for all mobs. It was nothing more than a little one-line comment, but it had a drastically negative effect on mages. Does anyone else remember the fun caused by the drastically increased rate of half (and full) resists when players cast spells that corresponded to a mob's elemental strengths. I did not run a search through BG's old threads, but I did find an old post on the FFXIAH forums that adequately outlined the nerf: Link to relevant post on the magic resistance nerf (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/2403/sleep-duration-halved-on-some-monstersares-have-fu/3/#55159).

I know this thread reeked of QQ and over-reaction when I wrote it, but when I saw that one seemly-innocent line about and adjustment to VIT and Critical Hits, my spidey senses started tingling. I really, really hope that I'm completely wrong and that I'm overreacting because I'm misreading SE's intent, but something in the back of mind tells me that I'm right.

I'm even more worried since a Community Rep still has not posted anything in this thread to allay anyone's fears. Maybe it's not their fault. Maybe the Dev Team simply failed to respond to a clarification request from the Community Team.

This time, I'm not so optimistic. I feel as if the Dev Team is preparing to drop a big, smelly nerf all over jobs like THF, DNC, NIN, BLU, and so on, but they don't want to acknowledge the nerf just yet. Maybe the Dev Team simply wants to push back any negative, wide-scale player reaction until after the update when the nerf's in place.

*Note: I was incorrect on this point. The update notes did not specifically mention any adjustments to player/mob magic resistance. The magic resistance nerf was not announced, and after a few weeks, SE claimed the nerf as a 'mistake' and undid the 4/9/2009 update's changes to magic resistance.

[Krisan]

*snip*
Very interesting.. I wasn't playing two years ago, I had a hiatus from XI that lasted a few years sometime around then, so I didn't know about this.. But that's very interesting.

[Eeek]

Very interesting.. I wasn't playing two years ago, I had a hiatus from XI that lasted a few years sometime around then, so I didn't know about this.. But that's very interesting.

To be fair, it looks like I was wrong in regards to the scrubbed Update Notes for that update. I just found the 4/9/2009 Update thread on BG, and unless I missed something, I saw no mention in the update notes of an adjustment to magic resistance. It appears that the adjustment to magic resistance was a ninja nerf and not explicitly stated.

In addition to that FFXIAH thread, I did find the 11-page BG thread discussing that magic nerf: {Thread} Elegy nerf or HNM buff (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/72988-Elegy-nerf-or-HNM-Buff).

Back then, my only mage was BRD (since retired), and I still remember that nerf very well.

Since then, I've always been leery of these seemingly small tweaks.

[Damane]

It will be a nerf what else. Yaaie for nerfing my DNC!

[Karbuncle]

If it makes anyone feel better, the JP Forums are about the same in responses.

"Does this effect player and beast a like?"

"If this is a nerf..."

"This is it? What about Scholar? Beastmaster? Paladin?" (JP Update notes (i'm assuming ours too) list this as "Adjustments and Additions, Part 1) as one of the JP said

"Part 1.... I had to say it" in response to the person complaining about no SCH/BST/PLD update.

[Eeek]

If it makes anyone feel better, the JP Forums are about the same in responses.

"Does this effect player and beast a like?"

"If this is a nerf..."

"This is it? What about Scholar? Beastmaster? Paladin?" (JP Update notes (i'm assuming ours too) list this as "Adjustments and Additions, Part 1) as one of the JP said

"Part 1.... I had to say it" in response to the person complaining about no SCH/BST/PLD update.

Actually, that does make me feel better. Thanks. :)

[Miera]

Oh noes, my Stringing Pummel damage D:

[Swords]

I can't say I'd be suprised if SE pulled the worst case scenario on us, but I can't say that they would either since new management took over the development team. Despite the general pessimism we've had with SE in the past the new team seems to be doing a good job thus far when it comes to adjusting the jobs and incorporating balance. It's still a bit early to tell though.

For example RNG has long needed a buff in damage, an extra arrow on barrage and a job trait that increases ranged crit dmg are good buffs but it's probably nothing that would overpower them, and even if it did I think everyone would agree it would not be to the same degree MNKs, NIN, DNC, and THF's have gotten since the level raise. If such a thing did happen, they would probably just scale back the job trait or accuracy on barrage a bit.

[Karbuncle]

What did THF Get since the Level raise?

Despoil? Worthless
Conspirator? Equally Worthless
Dual Wield 1 (2?)? Worthless. (Kinda. Has Situations if Dual wield II)
Critical hit Damage +(5%?) Job Trait? Decent. But so did half of the other jobs in the game.

Everything THF Got since 75 has sucked and blown, outside of an upgrade to Treasure Hunter. The only reason THF is good right now is because of Abyssea, RR, GH, and Apoc. Outside of Abyssea They're still probably one of the lower forms of DDs (Not the lowest for sure we have power).

While I can't really fully complain as THF will always have a spot in a party (Treasure Hunter), But yah, They hadn't gotten a lot.

But again, If i don't say it I'm sure I'll regret it, I'm going to wait until the update to truly decide if i wanna /wrists or not >.>

[Swords]

Well I was not just being selective of job traits/abilities, go into ranges of gear and such THF MNK DNC and NIN got a big boost. I know RNG and some other jobs can use some of the same equipment, but only select pieces of said gear falls into RNG's area of expertise with ranged attacks.

[Miera]

But again, If i don't say it I'm sure I'll regret it, I'm going to wait until the update to truly decide if i wanna /wrists or not >.>
Just try not to bleed all over my new rug. :P

[Karbuncle]

Well I was not just being selective of job traits/abilities, go into ranges of gear and such THF MNK DNC and NIN got a big boost. I know RNG and some other jobs can use some of the same equipment, but only select pieces of said gear falls into RNG's area of expertise with ranged attacks.

THF got some good gear, But so did RNG.

IN the end though, outside of Abyssea, I'd wager a RNG could out-DD a THF. THF really gets its bread and butter from Abyssea Atmas. Without them they're not that amazing. They'e okay DD, but their uses outside of Abyssea fall into "TH and gtfo", inside its "Tank, DD, TH and Gtfo" for a lot of groups/lowman.

While they can tank fine outside, They have about the DD capabilities of a potato, cause as a solo tank, They're unable to harness their best assets for out-side Abyssea-DD. SA, and TA. (TA to a lesser extent, You can still coax your mage to come into range for TA if the mob has no bad AoEs >.>)

[Eeek]

THF got some good gear, But so did RNG.

IN the end though, outside of Abyssea, I'd wager a RNG could out-DD a THF. THF really gets its bread and butter from Abyssea Atmas. Without them they're not that amazing. They'e okay DD, but their uses outside of Abyssea fall into "TH and gtfo", inside its "Tank, DD, TH and Gtfo" for a lot of groups/lowman.

While they can tank fine outside, They have about the DD capabilities of a potato, cause as a solo tank, They're unable to harness their best assets for out-side Abyssea-DD. SA, and TA. (TA to a lesser extent, You can still coax your mage to come into range for TA if the mob has no bad AoEs >.>)

I agree with this.

I'd also like to point out that our Empyrean Weaponskill is kinda meh in comparison to the powerful ones, and I personally don't find THF's AF3+2 set bonus all that amazing.

[noodles355]

Dual Wield 1 (2?)? Worthless. (Kinda. Has Situations if Dual wield II)FTR, thief got Dual Wield II. I'm not sure what level, 88-90. For some reason it was just never documented on wiki or anywhere else. God knows why.

Thief's biggest problem on NMs out of abyssea is not tanking or DD capabilities, it's enemy TP generation. Tanking isn't so difficult a thing. Magic damage is magic damage, thief can cap MDT with Shellra V and so takes the same MDT as everyone else. With mobs being closer to the same level (or lower level) than 90, tanking physical hits isn't as difficult as it used to be. DD is still weak, but the main reason thief's are told to tag with TH then gtfo is because a-hand/h2h jobs generate more enemy TP than a 2-hander. Pair this with thief being the only low-delay dual wield job without subtle blow and it's a problem.

[Karbuncle]

FTR, thief got Dual Wield II. I'm not sure what level, 88-90. For some reason it was just never documented on wiki or anywhere else. God knows why.

Thief's biggest problem on NMs out of abyssea is not tanking or DD capabilities, it's enemy TP generation. Tanking isn't so difficult a thing. Magic damage is magic damage, thief can cap MDT with Shellra V and so takes the same MDT as everyone else. With mobs being closer to the same level (or lower level) than 90, tanking physical hits isn't as difficult as it used to be. DD is still weak, but the main reason thief's are told to tag with TH then gtfo is because a-hand/h2h jobs generate more enemy TP than a 2-hander. Pair this with thief being the only low-delay dual wield job without subtle blow and it's a problem.

Yah, I know THF Got Dual Wield II, and ihave hopes of Dual Wield III by 99. I believe we should get some trait of Subtle blow, Even if its just up to SB IV.

And also yes, THF Does have a "DD" problem outside of Abyssea. Insides its Dandy, But outside they still fall behind largely in the DD department, not the worst, but they're far from best, its painful.

Plus, when new 95-99+ Out-side Abyssea content comes where mobs are meaningfully difficult, Theres a bigger problem i don't want to even think about... Especially if this VIT thing is a nerf.

[Runespider]

I would hate to be the community rep that replies to this one.

Either they tell us what it will entail and the forums fill with rage, they lie or underplay it and lose any respect the forum has with the playerbase after the update or they simply try to ignore it.

My guess is we will get a really vague response and none after lol

[Karbuncle]

Yah its really two options.

1) They say "Yah, It effects players and mobs, This is essentially a huge crit nerf".

or

2) This only effects players, Just like "Fencer" Job Trait. (note: Remember Fencer used to effect mobs? They removed it from mob Job Traits unless its charmed by a BST).


1) is going to cause a Shit-storm of spiraling hatred and nerf rants
2) Sigh of relief, and the faint sound of DRKs using soul-eater/wrists in the distance.

[Denabond]

Yah its really two options.

1) They say "Yah, It effects players and mobs, This is essentially a huge crit nerf".

or

2) This only effects players, Just like "Fencer" Job Trait. (note: Remember Fencer used to effect mobs? They removed it from mob Job Traits unless its charmed by a BST).


1) is going to cause a Shit-storm of spiraling hatred and nerf rants
2) Sigh of relief, and the faint sound of DRKs using soul-eater/wrists in the distance.
Last I cheaked, Drks have been useing soul-eater/wristing w/o even needing a reason.

[Atomic_Skull]

Remember the TP floor nerf? Every time MNK and NIN become so overpowered that SE has to get out the nerf bat THF gets caught in the crossfire.

[Mirage]

I like the change. Vitality needs to do a little more than it does, and making it decrease damage from criticals sounds like a good way to go. They need to do that or make it add to a character's HP. Something.

Now as far as the "damage dealers" complaining about this, i have little sympathy. It's not like the damage you can put out right now with atmas isn't insane, so having your crit damage nerfed some isn't going to hurt things. As far as theif in particular, you shoudn't be doing huge damage. You are a theif. Your speciality is collecting loot. The facts are you can do nice damage, have crazy evasion and make an exceptional tank against many bosses - I really don't see a significant problem here.

You're a thief, land TH and get the fuck off the mob, you're feeding it TP! Now you can have fun looking at the real jobs in the game doing their job. Good thief.

[RaenRyong]

Screw that, I'd rather wipe my party >:3

[Jalonis]

People overplay how dangerous TP feed is in the vast majority of cases. The only mobs I can really think of off hand where TP feed makes them much harder are mobs that switch between physical/magical absorbs through TP ability use. Anything else, the minor added TP feed is counterbalanced by the duration of the fight being cut dramatically.

[Byrth]

People overplay how dangerous TP feed is in the vast majority of cases. The only mobs I can really think of off hand where TP feed makes them much harder are mobs that switch between physical/magical absorbs through TP ability use. Anything else, the minor added TP feed is counterbalanced by the duration of the fight being cut dramatically.

If you have control over when a monster gains TP, you can take a lot of danger out of fights. The exceptions are basically when monsters have potent Regain or other odd mechanics.

For instance, lets say an unstunnable monster with mean TP moves starts casting Firaga IV on you. You're pretty sure you'll survive Firaga IV with about 600 HP left, but your only healing is a BLU/RDM (to go with your BLM/BRD for seal farming). Do you:
A) Continue meleeing while he's casting
or
B) Turn away

The obvious answer is to turn away and let the bard healing you back to full. Feeding it TP while it casts is going to get you two-shotted from Spell -> TP. The margin of error you're allowed here depends on how much Subtle Blow and AGI you have.

If you're in a more forgiving format, then maybe it doesn't matter, but lowman Subtle Blow and AGI matter a whole lot.

[Trangnai]

QQing over nerf.

Honestly all the buffs everyone and this game has gotten and one nerf and everyone crys. My only issue is this nurf isnt gonna change anything. So why do it.

Adjusting the effects of VIT wont:
- Allow SAM or DRK to deal damage again. All it will do is reduce the damage Crit based DDs do.
- Allow PLD to tank inside Abyssea.
- Stop jobs from courter-tanking.

Honestly if there gonna nerf, nerf something that matters. All this is gonna do is make it take longer to kill mobs.

[noodles355]

People overplay how dangerous TP feed is in the vast majority of cases. The only mobs I can really think of off hand where TP feed makes them much harder are mobs that switch between physical/magical absorbs through TP ability use. Anything else, the minor added TP feed is counterbalanced by the duration of the fight being cut dramatically.Certain mobs like the Voracious Violet malboro mob, who can spew both charm and death breaths, would disagree with you.

[Runespider]

I think the message is, get all your Abyssea stuff done before this update hits if you lowman using a mnk, thief or nin!

[Seriha]

As long as it's just a bunch of players versus one mob, difficulty will often be reduced to hate resets, instant-KOs (be it Death or insanely powerful TP moves/spells), and Charmga. Until more mobs get more buddies with more unique AI that's not AV stupid and the environments themselves are also a factor (Diabolos fight with the tiles is like the only example of this I can think of), then it'll likely be more of the same. And on some level, gimmicks get old after you've done 'em a few times, so SE can't be too harsh without risking alienating players.

[Camate]

To quell some of your concerns about the adjustments set to take place regarding VIT and critical hits, you'll be glad to know that this adjustment will only be for player characters and NOT monsters. Additionally, in regards to the note about "certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities" have no fear as no negative adjustments will be taking place. Instead the limits on these will be increased, making players even stronger. :)

[Byrth]

To quell some of your concerns about the adjustments set to take place regarding VIT and critical hits, you'll be glad to know that this adjustment will only be for player characters and NOT monsters. Additionally, in regards to the note about "certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities" have no fear as no negative adjustments will be taking place. Instead the limits on these will be increased, making players even stronger. :)

Awesome, nice to hear it!

[Krisan]

To quell some of your concerns about the adjustments set to take place regarding VIT and critical hits, you'll be glad to know that this adjustment will only be for player characters and NOT monsters. Additionally, in regards to the note about "certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities" have no fear as no negative adjustments will be taking place. Instead the limits on these will be increased, making players even stronger. :)
It's good to see that I was right about this. And I'm also glad that this will lay a lot of concerns to rest.

[CrystalWeapon]

To quell some of your concerns about the adjustments set to take place regarding VIT and critical hits, you'll be glad to know that this adjustment will only be for player characters and NOT monsters. Additionally, in regards to the note about "certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities" have no fear as no negative adjustments will be taking place. Instead the limits on these will be increased, making players even stronger. :)

You make me want to hug a moogle. :3

[Soundwave]

Has there been any testing done on VIT yet and quickly before the update comes, so we can test afterwords?

[Byrth]

Has there been any testing done on VIT yet and quickly before the update comes, so we can test afterwords?

2 VIT = 1 DEF
VIT is subtracted from STR in fSTR calculations.
VIT is used as a WS mod sometimes.
VIT is involved in some high tier Cure formulas.
VIT is involved in Waltz formulas.

Those are the current uses. Unless SE patches a bunch of monsters with really high crit rates into the game (which now seems likely) this modification of game formulas really will have no importance at all. The vast majority of the things in the game right now have a ~1% crit rate on me regardless of which level 90 job I'm on.

[Vold]

People overplay how dangerous TP feed is in the vast majority of cases. The only mobs I can really think of off hand where TP feed makes them much harder are mobs that switch between physical/magical absorbs through TP ability use. Anything else, the minor added TP feed is counterbalanced by the duration of the fight being cut dramatically.
They don't overplay it. They're just trying to do everything with as little healing support as possible, or not everyone is on the same playing field for gear and atmas. A dedicated group of players can breeze by what pick ups or LSs half assing it can't. Seriously, though. Try recruiting a mage for your linkshell. I don't blame people for going with less than stellar healer numbers and prolonging fights because it's nigh impossible to recruit just one sch whm rdm main. You then resort to players who have the job leveled but their heart is somewhere else and while they will play their mage job, they are pretty crummy at it due to lack of caring and crappy gear.

So, yeah. Many Abyssea monsters wreck havoc on the average group.

[Eeek]

To quell some of your concerns about the adjustments set to take place regarding VIT and critical hits, you'll be glad to know that this adjustment will only be for player characters and NOT monsters. Additionally, in regards to the note about "certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities" have no fear as no negative adjustments will be taking place. Instead the limits on these will be increased, making players even stronger. :)

Thanks for answering our questions, addressing our concerns, and putting worry-warts like myself at ease. It's definitely appreciated. :)

[Arcon]

2 VIT = 1 DEF
VIT is subtracted from STR in fSTR calculations.
VIT is used as a WS mod sometimes.
VIT is involved in some high tier Cure formulas.
VIT is involved in Waltz formulas.

Just to add on to that, VIT is also involved in the Jump potency formula, and 2*VIT is the amount of HP healed with Chakra, as well as the amount of magic damage absorbed by Rampart.

[Kraggy]

To quell some of your concerns about the adjustments set to take place regarding VIT and critical hits, you'll be glad to know that this adjustment will only be for player characters and NOT monsters. Additionally, in regards to the note about "certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities" have no fear as no negative adjustments will be taking place. Instead the limits on these will be increased, making players even stronger. :)
Can't you suggest to those who write the notes that being gratuitously vague isn't a Good Thing, it's infuriating when what they write it totally ambiguous, it's worthless as presented because no one has a clue what the change actually is, hence the speculation and 'negative vibes' such update notes generate.

[Swords]

It isnt the first time such an issue has happened, I recall a similar reaction occured when SE had announced that they were changing the first 6 dynamis areas. But I think when they say they're going to do something, it's more along the lines that "Were going to change this, but we haven't decided how yet." Which is good and bad in my opinion, besides getting a rise out of the general populus over the speculation of "this is the gaming apocolypse", it feeds SE a bunch of ideas on people's opinions about the change, players reasonable ideas on what they think might change (which might make SE go hey thats an even better idea than what we planned) , and how much players think it would overall effect the game.

[Leonlionheart]

To quell some of your concerns about the adjustments set to take place regarding VIT and critical hits, you'll be glad to know that this adjustment will only be for player characters and NOT monsters. Additionally, in regards to the note about "certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities" have no fear as no negative adjustments will be taking place. Instead the limits on these will be increased, making players even stronger. :)

You had me worried there for a second, my ukon was starting to tear up