[dev1010] Job Adjustments

[PizzaTheHut]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5950


The forthcoming version update is scheduled to feature the following job adjustments:

Dark Knight

The effect duration of the job ability Last Resort will be increased from 30 to 180 seconds.

Ranger

The recast time of the job ability Bounty Shot will be reduced from 5 minutes to 1 minute, and a successful hit will occasionally enhance the effect of Treasure Hunter.
The job ability Barrage will launch an additional projectile at level 90.
Accuracy calculations for Barrage will be eased in proportion to the maximum number of shots.

Puppetmaster

The following automaton attachments will be added:

Name Description
Heat Capacitor A fire-based automaton attachment.
Functionality: Erases all Fire Maneuver effects to restore TP.
Power Cooler An ice-based automaton attachment.
Functionality: Reduces MP cost in proportion to the number of Ice Maneuvers in effect.
Barrage Turbine A wind-based automaton attachment.
Functionality: Erases all Wind Maneuver effects to occasionally grant a Barrage effect.
Galvanizer A lightning-based automaton attachment.
Functionality: Increases chance of countering in proportion to the number of Thunder Maneuvers in effect.

The following weapon skills will be added for the Valoredge and Sharpshot frames:

Skill Name Frame Effect
String Shredder Valoredge Delivers a twofold attack.
Critical hit rate varies with TP.
Armor Shatterer Sharpshot Delivers a fourfold attack.
Additional effect: Weakens defense
Additional effect duration varies with TP.

Job Traits

The following job traits will be added:

Job Trait Level Obtained* Effect
Tranquil Heart WHM Lv.21
RDM Lv.26
SCH Lv.30 Reduces enmity gain when casting healing magic.
Stalwart Soul DKN Lv.45 Reduces HP consumption when using Souleater.
Dead Aim RNG Lv.50 Improves power of critical hits for ranged attacks.


*The level indicated is that at which the trait will initially be obtained. Trait effectiveness will subsequently increase at higher levels.
Certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities.

Other Adjustments

VIT will play a role in calculating damage taken from critical hits.
Experience point penalties when KO’d will be eased for characters level 75 and below.
At levels 1–30, the penalty will be removed entirely. At levels 31–75, the amount of XP lost will be lowered as indicated in the chart below.


PUP getting some lovin!

[Ezikiel]

im hoping theres more info to come for job adjustments

[Andylynn]

PUP getting some lovin!

Not to be rude, but what was the point of this thread?

[PizzaTheHut]

Not to be rude, but what was the point of this thread?

To discuss the new topic.

[Andylynn]

To discuss the new topic.

'finally pup gets some lovin' isnt really prompt for discussion.

[Seiver]

i think RDM needs to be looked at with relation Cure 5 being 30 levels late and and the DNC waltz timers split up some

[PizzaTheHut]

Jigs need to be split already...

[hiko]

nice (little) buffs for DRK and RNG too,

[Chiibi]

yeah dead aim... why the hell doesnt cor get that?

[HFX7686]

No experience loss from 1 to 30 is kind of silly. Much too high. 1-10 maybe.

[Sayelle]

No experience loss from 1 to 30 is kind of silly. Much too high. 1-10 maybe.

Yeah really, with the exp buff last update and spammable FoV pages there was really no reason to get rid of the exp penalty for dying.

[Seriha]

Guess I think I'm the only that finds EXP penalties antiquated in general.

Anyway, just gonna echo that I hope there's more in store for job updates. Since the cap isn't going up this patch, this puts some needed fine tuning for various jobs in the hands of this particular section of the process. Frankly, I'd put the -enmity on cures barely above Shield Mastery for RDM, and if that's it... just /facepalm.

[Glamdring]

Ok, I'll assume there are other job changes coming and this was as much detail as you wanted to fit in 1 post.

The ranger changes, for the most part good. I don't know any rangers that really cared that much about bounty shot, but maybe making it more usable... but the rest is very much a yes, please...

Dark-very good for end-game, but I think it throws balance at lower levels right out the window, as if anyone cares.

Healing enmity down-will fundamentally change the way those jobs are played, but not necessarily a bad thing there. Dependent of course on the degree of reduction.

Pup-the attachments look decent, and it breaths some life into the lesser-used frames, although I'll have to see in terms of slots used. The big question will be attainment, if the means of getting them is too onerous they may mean nothing, we'll see.

[Seriha]

Unless the -enmity trait can break the -50% enmity cap, it won't do much for any of the 3 jobs in fundamentally changing how they play. If MND played a greater role for Cure 1-4, sure, but once you get past Cure Potency and -Enmity, the only real choice left is lolConserve MP. Good luck convincing mages with already clogged inventories to whip up a set for that. :x

[hiko]

Unless the -enmity trait can break the -50% enmity cap, it won't do much for any of the 3 jobs in fundamentally changing how they play. If MND played a greater role for Cure 1-4, sure, but once you get past Cure Potency and -Enmity, the only real choice left is lolConserve MP. Good luck convincing mages with already clogged inventories to whip up a set for that. :x
fast cast/haste

[Carth]

Yeah really, with the exp buff last update and spammable FoV pages there was really no reason to get rid of the exp penalty for dying.

Blood Warping. Keep in mind unless new players are guided they probably won't even know about FoV. EXP penalty hardly affects the game in the first place.

I personally find Tranquil Heart on RDM as a way of SE saying they only see it as a healing job. I duo with a friend a lot and most of the time, he can't take a hit at all unlike on my RDM. The -Enmity is not welcomed.

[Seriha]

If Cure IV had a longer timer, I'd agree. The global cooldown can conflict here even if you did manage to hit 50%. As is, I'd expect WHMs to be capped, if not close, with merits, Light Arts, and other gear. RDM gets 15% from traits with another 10% from LA. SCH's pretty close since they're more than likely /RDM anyway. With the GCD, you'd maybe gain a second or fractions of that at best. Could it save your tank in a tight spot as a RDM or SCH healer? Hard to say. Absolutely needed for your average fight where enmity is unlikely a concern? Hardly.

[Glamdring]

Yeah really, with the exp buff last update and spammable FoV pages there was really no reason to get rid of the exp penalty for dying.

I thought the whole idea was to spam your way to 30 and immediately leech all the way to 90 in Abyssea? isn't that the way you are supposed to play the game?

[Sagian]

Yeah really, with the exp buff last update and spammable FoV pages there was really no reason to get rid of the exp penalty for dying.

If you're soloing, I think having to wait for weakness to wear off is enough of a penalty since it affects your xp per hour.

Since I'm very cautious when soloing low-level, this really doesn't affect me. However, maybe I'll be more brazen now that I know I won't lose additional xp. :D

[Carth]

I thought the whole idea was to spam your way to 30 and immediately leech all the way to 90 in Abyssea? isn't that the way you are supposed to play the game?
I don't really see a problem with it. People seem to forget LB1-5, AF Quests, Missions, and in general Skill-Up parties. If the job is a main job then the player will learn it's job and play it effectively.

As a player from Fenrir who had to level subs I can say it's impossible to get in an exp party at the appropriate level, so skill will be an issue either way. Might as well take the easier route.

[Sayelle]

I was hoping that people would be able to read between the lines and figure out why the exp loss adjustment is annoying. Now I can't keep a mule specifically for Astral Burns or Qufim parties, exp change is beyond retarded. As for weakness being enough of a penalty, more often than not these days you are better off home pointing and running right back out than getting raised.

[Dallas]

Wow, great call, the astral burn nerf has hit!

[Seriha]

If you AB enough, just throw another buck at disposable mule you'd then level the starter jobs to 11 for. Once they're useless, repeat.

[Carth]

Fell Cleave burn parties are better anyway.

[Dallas]

Fell Cleave burn parties are better anyway.

Under level 30? I totally agree.

[Carth]

Touche`. I don't find any annoyance with this however.

[Runespider]

Can't really complain about the AB nerf, FoV changes are pretty big now so it doesn't really matter as much as it used to. I'm suprised they didn't do this when everyone was spamming it, now it won't hurt many at all.

[Sama]

DRK still need a JA call 'Hit a mob' and WS call 'Hit a mob', ok j/k...

DRK is still far from being an average DD especially in aby even with these update, just to let you know.

[Ordoric]

people need to relearn party dynamics im kinda hateing fell cleave type parties as a healer and buffer eather your buffer is subjected to a mage party ooo ballad thats it so let me skill up now and putting sch as an outside party healer is realy smart to right especily with the new spells its glorified powelvling

[Selzak]

DRK still need a JA call 'Hit a mob' and WS call 'Hit a mob', ok j/k...

DRK is still far from being an average DD especially in aby even with these update, just to let you know.
If Desperate Blows lasts 3:00 minutes, I disagree.

Assuming healers aren't too lazy for DRK/WAR, I can see some serious dps coming out of this combo.

[wish12oz]

'finally pup gets some lovin' isnt really prompt for discussion.

Ya, he should totally pretend to have a relic for his PUP so he can be super cool, then say how awesome it is so he has good conversation material.

[Catsby]

I still fail to see the usefulness of Bounty Shot. Somebody explain to me why Rangers would ever need this and why it doesn't serve as an addition to Treasure Hunter.

[Kagato]

DRK still need a JA call 'Hit a mob' and WS call 'Hit a mob', ok j/k...

Hi 2005. Welcome to 2011.

DRKs haven't had accuracy problems for years.



Speaking of DRK...HOLY CRAP ON A BISCUIT. Pro DD boost is pro. Hasso is now all but useless. I'm going to see if DRK/SAM holds up well much anymore compared to DRK/WAR as far as pure DDing now.

[Xerius]

Woot! SMN getting the shaft yet again!

[Tazz]

no exp loss levels 1 - 30 is a huge slap in the face for everyone who leveled up in valkurm dunes, which is more than likely eveveryone who has played FFXI. Crazy just crazy even with all the rr items and fov buffs. WOW is exp meaning nothing to the MMORPG anymore... ...

[Tamarsamar]

The exp loss thing may be a slap in the face, but Tranquil Heart is a spit in the grave of RDM tanking . . .

[AtrixWolfe]

I still fail to see the usefulness of Bounty Shot. Somebody explain to me why Rangers would ever need this and why it doesn't serve as an addition to Treasure Hunter.

Ok I can explain via my understanding.

Before this update you were basically with the gear for it equivalent to about treasure hunter 3 with no ability to take it higher like a thief can, and can only use it once every 5 minutes (i.e you get a free thf with no th gear for an nm, pretty much).

After this update, you can actually work WITH a thief to help increase TH, and more than once per fight for NM's. Something I don't think anyone will complain about. Supposedly Bounty Shot can miss but I've used it at least 50 times without a miss. Depending on how often the "occasionally increases TH" happens, it could be equivalent to giving a thf in your party a third skill with which to up TH levels. Meaning those mobs you only got level 6 TH on could be 8 or 9.

I hope that answers the question.

As for the Deadly Shot, this is potentially a grand grand buff for ranger as a DD in abyssea. As prior to this, due to the way ranged attack critical hits are calculated differently from melee critical hits (melee is capped a 2.0 cratio and get a boost of 1.0 crating whenever a crit happens on top of other calculations making the best crit 3x, while ranged is uncapped and gets no additive boost but is multiplied by 25% after all calculations are done, meaning you needed a base cratio of at least ~2.1 to be able to compete with melee crits, something very hard to obtain since cratio is determined by your attack/mob's defense with level corrections added in. Meaning you'd need more than twice the ranged attack over the mobs defense rating to have your critical strike scale as well as a melee. The end end way uber geared version of ranger however would more than do this and hit like a freight train. Obv however the average ranger will have lackluster damage considering the ~3 seconds delay ADDED to every ranged attack on top of less than stellar crits, something abyssea DD's are all about).

Note that is a crude summarization missing a lot of details but the complete article can be found here: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Level_Correction_Function_and_pDIF

Now if the cratio is boosted even .5 at level 90 it will do a lot to help the ranger. If it boosted .8 or even .1 to match the melee cratio boost, it could potentially again make ranger the best DD something perhaps they deserve with their inability to have any defensive capabilities whatsoever, no way to dump enmity whatsoever, the large gil associated with the job, etc. And with bounty shot to help counter gil costs they can finally be considered maybe a complete job rather than something rich aristocrats snobbishly change to for fun. Because before RNG was only really useful if you could obtain that epic attack rating or you were hunting weak NM's. In which case you'd probably role thf anyhow.

I do hear their +2 with an emp weapon damage right now is epic however since you could potentially get a cratio of 3.25.. i've heard tell of them 4 shotting bluffalo. I've also heard crits of over 750 but am unsure on the biggest crit. Though I myself with crappy gear vs piercing weak mobs have crit for more than that... that is sort of cheating tho haha. And was only possible after loading as much ranged attack atma and gear and food as I can. Which most will opt for regain first and attack second so am not sure..

As for barrage, if you capped ranged accuracy, and had all the + to barrage gear, according to the wiki you can launch 9 shots. With 95% acc the cap this would mean you have a .95^9 or ~63% chance to land all 9 shots. With the additional shot from patch this is changed to ~59.8% so it is understandable that without capped accuracy it gets far far worse, so the lessening is needed, how much they will do so I do not know but it will directly effect the average dmg and tp of a barrage and is a bigger boost prob than an additional shot. If lessened even half, capped accuracy for max hits barrage goes to 97.5%^10 or ~77.6%, or about 2x as often if I'm correct. With the addition of it doing the extra shot. Lets say you had that 750 crits, critted all shots... you would do 7500 dmg with barrage, pretty crazy ^.^ With the increase in crit dmg as well.. might see 8k, 9k barrages. So no laughing matter. Now if only we had a non empyrean multi hit critical physical weaponskill... I guess rng will remain a job you need epic gear for however, which is part of the job. As it stands due to it's inability to crit, sidewinder isn't that good in abyssea, and the only critical hit ws we do have hits only slightly harder when it does hit and is a single hit. Rampage was hitting for more than Sidewinder hahaha. I have heard empyrean arrow can do good if you get enough tp bonus since it's modifier is 5x at 300% tp.

In any case, this will vastly help average gear rangers and it makes me very happy :) We finally get a slight bit of useful utility too through the ability of bounty shot to help increase TH once every minute. Meaning for the first time ever we bring more than damage delivered out of AoE range.

[Catsby]

The exp loss thing may be a slap in the face, but Tranquil Heart is a spit in the grave of RDM tanking . . .

Maybe, but back in the day there was no clear vision for each of the job. The community essentially designed the jobs for whatever roles they needed. Now the developers are tapping into that and trying to refine each job. For a classed based game with 20 different classes it doesn't make much sense to have a class that fills every roll.

[Vold]

Woot! SMN getting the shaft yet again!

Right, I feel so sorry for summoners. They haven't gotten anything in 10 years. They need to stop focusing on jobs like Ninja that get everything.

[Catsby]

A whole lot of stuff

Ok cool I totally missed the part in the update preview where it said it will enhance treasure hunter. As for the rest of the your post you both understand and misunderstand what you are saying. Step over to the RNG forum with me and we can discuss it there.

[Hoshi]

I think what's really nice about these adjustments is that most of it was taken straight from forum discussions. It's awesome to see devs really listening on the job specific forums.

[Vold]

no exp loss levels 1 - 30 is a huge slap in the face for everyone who leveled up in valkurm dunes, which is more than likely eveveryone who has played FFXI. Crazy just crazy even with all the rr items and fov buffs. WOW is exp meaning nothing to the MMORPG anymore... ...

Do you honestly care or you just saying? Why is it we must feel that because we suffered, everyone after us must suffer too? You never lost much experience anyway at those levels. What would be a slap in the face is no exp loss anymore for max levels because we spent so many years building exp buffers for all those end game deaths. But even then I'd be like, okay whatever who cares, no more exp loss HOT DAMN.

[AtrixWolfe]

Ok cool I totally missed the part in the update preview where it said it will enhance treasure hunter. As for the rest of the your post you both understand and misunderstand what you are saying. Step over to the RNG forum with me and we can discuss it there.

No time to quibble, take it as is ^^ And you're welcome :)

[Tamarsamar]

Maybe, but back in the day there was no clear vision for each of the job. The community essentially designed the jobs for whatever roles they needed. Now the developers are tapping into that and trying to refine each job. For a classed based game with 20 different classes it doesn't make much sense to have a class that fills every roll.

What are you talking about? There's already a job with every player-available Roll: it's called Corsair. :p

In all seriousness, though, myself, like many other Red Mages I'm sure (excluding those who simply chose to not level White Mage because they were still in the ToAU days) leveled the job because it was advertised as a little bit of everything, and while I understand that community is important, I don't think it should be so powerful as to mandate a bait-and-switch like that . . .

[AtrixWolfe]

What are you talking about? There's already a job with every player-available Roll: it's called Corsair. :p

In all seriousness, though, myself, like many other Red Mages I'm sure (excluding those who simply chose to not level White Mage because they were still in the ToAU days) leveled the job because it was advertised as a little bit of everything, and while I understand that community is important, I don't think they should be so powerful as to mandate a bait-and-switch like that . . .

Aren't rdm still the best enfeeblers in the game? They are more a niche healer now, and abby makes refresh not so cool anymore, but it is migrating to a favorite subjob choice for many casters. Plus they still solo stuff pretty well. And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

[Tamarsamar]

Aren't rdm still the best enfeeblers in the game? They are more a niche healer now, and abby makes refresh not so cool anymore, but it is migrating to a favorite subjob choice for many casters. Plus they still solo stuff pretty well. And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.

Don't get me wrong, I love the whole "come for the versatility, stay for the Enfeebling" bit. I actually wouldn't add much more to the job at all! I'm just saying that Tranquil Heart is excessive, and we probably should've gotten Fencer before Crits got their nerf. >.>

[viion]

I absolutely love the exp death penalty thing, losing EXP is not something a new or returning player wants to go through a lot.

[Supersun]

Do RDMs have the highest enfeebling skill in the game, yeah.

Are RDMs the best enfeebles in the game...define "best."

Not that it matters anyway since enfeeble immunity on anything worth enfeebling is becoming the new norm.

[AtrixWolfe]

Do RDMs have the highest enfeebling skill in the game, yeah.

Are RDMs the best enfeebles in the game...define "best."

Not that it matters anyway since enfeeble immunity on anything worth enfeebling is becoming the new norm.

Well, while you may not be able to stick the big ones on the important ones, paralyze and slow still work on most everything. I thought too the other part of rdm enfeebling was the speed at which they did it due to fastcast. Imo this is just is for making tanking/enmity control easier for tanks


I guess I see it less as a rdm/whm/sch buff and more as an indirect pld/thf/nin/dnc buff

[Tamarsamar]

See, the thing is is that Tranquil Heart does basically nothing on a Red Mage, since we literally cannot gain hate even if we tried. Like I said, all it is is an insult, a spit to the face, of an already long-since dead aspect of the Red Mage job.

I admonish the person who earlier claimed that this was slightly above Shield Mastery, because even that has a situational use or two for the reduced spell interruption while soloing (and I was offended by that, anyway, since I like soloing on /PLD).

[Duelle]

Right, I feel so sorry for summoners. They haven't gotten anything in 10 years. They need to stop focusing on jobs like Puppetmaster that get everything.Fixed.

Please let this be only part 1 of job adjustments. No melee RDM updates in sight, and seeing more healling stuff tossed our way is beginning to depress me.

[Feliciaa]

It's great that SE is trying to fix RNG crit and Bounty shot....

However, they completely ignored the big Enmity issue with RNGs in group play. As it is now, RNGs in a group just means any other melee is going to lose atk swings or WSs because the mob is running between melee and the RNG.

Or the RNG has to greatly hold back or do everything in melee range which completely kills the point of the "sweet spot" and True Shot.

[Kurosen]

No experience loss from 1 to 30 is kind of silly. Much too high. 1-10 maybe.

Seems like Final Fantasy XI and XIV are going towards what most games now and days become, Super-Easy Mode. If people don't lose experience till 30, they are gonna whine more for high Tier Raises later levels because they got spoiled on no exp lost for a third of their levels. And it helps getting into a game when there are consequences like losing experience, because then it makes players more dedicated to get that exp back and beyond. If the game is too easy, then no one is going to bother playing it. It might not be Super-Easy Mode yet, but its going toward that direction, with 30-99 Abyssea leveling and now no experience lost from 1-30.

[Seriha]

Maybe, but back in the day there was no clear vision for each of the job. The community essentially designed the jobs for whatever roles they needed. Now the developers are tapping into that and trying to refine each job. For a classed based game with 20 different classes it doesn't make much sense to have a class that fills every roll.

This is a bit of a catch 22 for RDM. While I can understand the concept of SE catering to styles of play the players have come up with for jobs (NIN is basically the prime example), RDM didn't so much have the luxury of that choice.

Physically, it's a no-brainer the job is lacking. Most of it's good melee gear was sub-par relative to other specialists under the 75 cap, and most of it is still "the best" today, minus a few tweaks. Pair this with lower skill caps and WS restrictions on a weapon class that wasn't really known for big damage to begin with (sword), and it's unsurprising people either never bothered with melee or shunned melee enthusiasts.

Magically, some might try to peg enfeebling as our bread and butter, but not really. If this was something SE truly wanted to embrace, there is a far greater variety of enfeebles they could give RDM. Addle was a start in this direction, but if I'm not mistaken, the DATs show WHM will be getting it eventually. All things considered, a WHM/RDM can enfeeble comparably to a RDM. Meanwhile, BLUs have a number of AoE debuffs, some currently unique to the job.

In terms of elemental magic, back in the day RDM's dealt with both magic accuracy issues on difficult mobs, and during the leveling process, being rather behind BLM when it came to tier ups. /SCH helped the former issue tremendously, and parts of the empyrean set are certainly good nuking pieces, but the job's still third rung under BLM and SCH, maybe even worse if you consider the potential of Automatons or BLUs with Charged Whisker solo cleaving.

Since people didn't want RDMs for lackluster melee and basically preferred BLMs for nuking (RDMs couldn't MB distortion with Blizz 2 until 55), all that really left was support. Unsurprisingly, people desperate for EXP put up with it, as no matter the MMO it's often a thankless and stressful task that other players tend to avoid. Eventually the idea that Convert and Refresh made RDM a "better healer than WHM" started circulating around, devoid of circumstance, and suddenly any problems people DID have with the job were blown off because people still invited it to heal. Add a dash of soloing antics exploiting Bind/Gravity/Zoning/Pinning, and we went from that to overpowered.

It's unfortunate it took basically every other job getting so far ahead for people to start thinking, "Hey, maybe RDM could use some attention..." but for those of who've been here all along, we're not at all surprised about this state of affairs. Of course, they'll all have varied ideas for repair, some as mundane as simply doling out Cure V... which just begs to repeat the job's position prior to Abyssea without offering any sense of diversity or charm. In short, those crackers are WHMs in denial.


Seems like Final Fantasy XI and XIV are going towards what most games now and days become, Super-Easy Mode. If people don't lose experience till 30, they are gonna whine more for high Tier Raises later levels because they got spoiled on no exp lost for a third of their levels. And it helps getting into a game when there are consequences like losing experience, because then it makes players more dedicated to get that exp back and beyond. If the game is too easy, then no one is going to bother playing it. It might not be Super-Easy Mode yet, but its going toward that direction, with 30-99 Abyssea leveling and now no experience lost from 1-30.

Losing EXP has never made me go, "Damn, I wanna get it back and then some!" Perhaps there's a brief pause for reflection on why the death occurred, but that can exist without the level downs and all the other situational inconveniences surrounding death, including weaknesses.

So, drop the haughty act. Time Sinks do not equate to true difficulty.

[AtrixWolfe]

It's great that SE is trying to fix RNG crit and Bounty shot....

However, they completely ignored the big Enmity issue with RNGs in group play. As it is now, RNGs in a group just means any other melee is going to lose atk swings or WSs because the mob is running between melee and the RNG.

Or the RNG has to greatly hold back or do everything in melee range which completely kills the point of the "sweet spot" and True Shot.

With atma and gear getting max -enmity capped on rng is actually easy. While alone -50% on a very well geared ranger isn't enough to let them open house, it is pretty close for an average geared ranger.
If you combined this with a tank that has +enmity gear I can see enmity control as not a problem for ranger. Asking tanks to actually do that however might get difficult unfortunately.
I fought a snoll NM with -enmity capped, without food I could not pull hate from a pretty average geared thf no matter how hard I tried. I was able to do it after a while the 2nd fight however, when I did use a yellow curry bun. It was over 50% dead when I did this however, and the thf used accomplice and I never got hate again. Keep in mind +enmity gear caps at +100% so it has a lot more potential than -enmity. And then there's always the traditional way of doing it. Pairing with a thief in your party and letting them close a SATA skill chain which always let me open house before... though in all honesty the last time I got to try it out was a b tree aprty so I don't know if holds up end game.

So really the problem I see with RNG and DD that can't tank in general right now is not enmity but rather the tp feeding they do, and as far as tp feeding goes... Ranger doesn't get any subtle blow really. Not in gear or traits. And that might come down to whether or not you want a dd in your party or not these days.

Other than that, we're really good at blue procs for piercing.. and can do a fair amount of slashing.. and end game we do some sick dmg with the proper weapon :) I've heard both Cor and Rng can do 10k wildfires. And Jishnu's Radiance for 8k.

I dunno what to make of the exp changes. It's unnecessary imo. If there's no penalty for death it doesn't mean much. It's already lol in abyssea. People used to get upset. And avoid it at all costs. Due to experience gains it already is like, well at least my hp/mp is full. Or yay free teleport. Or yay, I zombie tanked this nm. And still gained exp after dying six times.

[Seriha]

Only time RNG is any worse of a TP feeder than other DDs is when Barrage is ready. Considering the recent AGI change and how some of the popular gear boasts that, as well, RNG does sometimes get some indirect Subtle Blow. The biggest and legitimate gripe for the class is indeed how drawing a mob's focus winds up hurting everyone else in some manner and why the whole ranged -enmity thing really needs looked into.

[Tamarsamar]

*clipped, but still awesome*

It's unfortunate it took basically every other job getting so far ahead for people to start thinking, "Hey, maybe RDM could use some attention..." but for those of who've been here all along, we're not at all surprised about this state of affairs. Of course, they'll all have varied ideas for repair, some as mundane as simply doling out Cure V... which just begs to repeat the job's position prior to Abyssea without offering any sense of diversity or charm. In short, those crackers are WHMs in denial.

I . . . I think I love you now. o_o;

[Soundwave]

Disappointing for the job updates...not so much about the job itself getting update but....I think it quite a tease to be sectioning the job updates, when we know and you know the players really look forward to these, is there anything else u can tell us about future job updates?

This also should go in consideration with all job forums considering there has yet to be a single post from the C-reps team. (Not counting the first sticky post):cool:

I think we don't expect exact details but more so the direction you guys are taking with the jobs as of now?

[PizzaTheHut]

I hope they do something about bullet material already. Seriously 20k a stack? I'm sure it'll go down after server merges.

[Carth]

Aren't rdm still the best enfeeblers in the game? They are more a niche healer now, and abby makes refresh not so cool anymore, but it is migrating to a favorite subjob choice for many casters. Plus they still solo stuff pretty well. And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.
Pre-Tier2 merits, that A+ Enfeebling was a massive joke. Thanks to Slow II and Paralyze II however, yes, we are the best enfeeblers. However, Enfeebling can only get you so far. Admittedly, Slow II is godly, but Paralyze II has always been up in the air pre-Saboteur.

I do have to address one thing.


And I have some inkling that there will be 90-99 as post abyssea wherein refresh will be valued again.
Out of all the things, this is what most RDMs don't want. Throughout the entirety of RDM's lifespan in FFXI it has always been defined by Refresh. Refresh made us valuable healer in exp parties, Refresh made us better than WHMs, Refresh made us powerful soloists, and most of all Refresh (and Convert, admittedly) has made the community and the developers fear any update that ever came our way, even for DD purposes.

Refresh doesn't make the job "just fine", but that's been our niche ever since 2005. If we are meant to be the strongest enfeeblers, then the developers need to stop twiddling our thumbs and give us more enfeebles, not something as idiotic as tranquil heart (due to the many roles RDM can take up, it shouldn't have their native enmity messed with at all).

[Bhujerba]

Yeah really, with the exp buff last update and spammable FoV pages there was really no reason to get rid of the exp penalty for dying.
if exp is so easy to get these days that the exp penalty hardly matter anymore, then does it really matter if they removed it?
these exp changes mostly aren't aimed for veteran and established players, its for new and returning players to compensate the decrease in population.

[Kurosen]

Losing EXP has never made me go, "Damn, I wanna get it back and then some!" Perhaps there's a brief pause for reflection on why the death occurred, but that can exist without the level downs and all the other situational inconveniences surrounding death, including weaknesses.

So, drop the haughty act. Time Sinks do not equate to true difficulty.
I didn't mean it to sound like getting Exp back after dying is fun, but it is a part of the game...or was at least. I'm just worried players are going to think its too easy, or not worth the time.

[Seriha]

Yes, well, I'm also tired of how every MMO I look into, I see people whining about how they don't want whatever to be "easy mode" because WoW did X, things are "supposed" to be rare, some guy they'll never ever want to play with anyway is hurting their game by not "earning" something, people with no lives should be better rewarded, or whatever bullsquat excuse is played. As is, death carries the following penalties even without EXP loss:

1) Time spent waiting for a raise is potential loot and EXP not gained.
2) Waiting on Weakness is similar to 1, though partially offset if you're a non-critical role in a group.
3) If solo and 1 isn't possible, further time is lost if returning to the area you died in.
4) You potentially hamper quest/mission progress.
5) If solo, you'll obviously have to start over again on a specific mob if that was your goal. This can be tied to 4.
6) If you were after a contested monster, it might not be there when you return.

Overall, regardless of the game, it's rare the process of EXPing is what people consider fun. Making people have to do more of the things they don't enjoy is a surefire way to discontent and possible account cancellation. As juvenile as some may feel it, people have quit over the EXP loss mechanic. It made classes like THF hate themselves back in the day as popular sacrificial pullers in Dynamis, only to never get invited to EXP later. PLDs went through similar simply tanking. Nowadays this isn't so much a concern since endgame EXP is certainly more superfluous, but that generosity isn't as prevalent in the lowbie levels. In general, how you EXP doesn't exactly reflect how you would behave in an endgame environment, either. Ever hear talk of how "Campaign noobs" sucked at their jobs because they were meleeing mages or wearing some kind of non-standard gear? Well, that's kind of replaced by Abyssea leeches today, but the moment any mob does more than just auto-attack/TP move/cast spells once engaged like with EXP, you'll need to learn on the fly.

[Duelle]

Refresh doesn't make the job "just fine", but that's been our niche ever since 2005. If we are meant to be the strongest enfeeblers, then the developers need to stop twiddling our thumbs and give us more enfeebles, not something as idiotic as tranquil heart (due to the many roles RDM can take up, it shouldn't have their native enmity messed with at all).Unless they're out to nerf what remains of Red Mage tanking.

[Tamarsamar]

Unless they're out to nerf what remains of Red Mage tanking.

Nothing remains of Red Mage tanking right now. To repeat what I said earlier, all this does is spits in its grave.

Well, that, and the grave of PLD/RDM (which they killed with equal impudence).

[AtrixWolfe]

Only time RNG is any worse of a TP feeder than other DDs is when Barrage is ready. Considering the recent AGI change and how some of the popular gear boasts that, as well, RNG does sometimes get some indirect Subtle Blow. The biggest and legitimate gripe for the class is indeed how drawing a mob's focus winds up hurting everyone else in some manner and why the whole ranged -enmity thing really needs looked into.

Well, lets look at other jobs;

Monk and Dancer from traits get 20% reduced feeding, and have gear options
Ninja gets 25% from traits and has gear options

Thief I know has enough gear options to cap it, or very close to.

That leaves us SAM, DRK, DRG and RNG
Out of these I would loosely say:
RNG > SAM = DRG > DRK though feel free to prove me wrong.

RNG has both snapshot and rapidshot, and if you sub sam as well you have ws spam. IMO the high delay combined with the fact we have an instant attack occasionally, and the fact we feed up to 9 shots with a barrage, instantly, is crazy.
Sam has ws spam.
DRG's ws's are multi-hit, and has jumps
and DRK has spells.

I am not entirely sure on itemization for all jobs listed here, but I do know for ranger any subtle blow gear is extremely rare. On the other hand, we do lend a bit of enmity control by not being required to be healed when mobs use most AoE attacks.

I really think that with a community that becomes more focused on proper enmity control via +enmity and -enmity gear on respective party members, these enmity issues are a non issue. It's just you can't get anyone to actually do it.

You have already heard how capping -enmity let me basically open house when a thf was evasion tanking and not even doing that great of damage. Imagine that thf was doing great damage and had +enmity gear. And imagine there was a second thief in the party to help stick enmity on the thief. I guess I just see complaining about it to SE as not a good thing when there is still things players can do to make it better. I guess I feel we are not playing to our potential because it is not cool to do so. I guess you make of it what you will. It's just, when I mentioned this to a good player in game they yelled at me asking why I'd use an atma on enmity, that it was stupid. It's not stupid if it allows you, in the end, to do more damage. That snoll nm died so much quicker because I could combo the heck out of it with no fear. -enmity and +enmity too work off percentages, meaning the more dmg you do, the more that gear is effective on you, because the bigger enmity differences it makes. Meaning if that thief was more well geared and did more damage, that enmity gear would count for even more. And if they use accomplice I'm certain it applies there as well. With the potential for a tank to DOUBLE their enmity I do not see why more tanks don't have a full enmity set. As when it comes down to it even the lack of some defense or evasion matters less than making sure that the beefiest target is the one receiving the damage. RNG has zero defensive skills. If I get hit, I can die in 3 crits. Or one really nasty skill, or attack round. To compliment that we have awesome damage *potential* as well as the ability to deliver that damage from back row. Plus, we have ALOT of -enmity gear options now, way more than we ever had before. Me thinks this is why SE is not addressing enmity with ranger. It isn't necessary, it would make it easier, sure but necessary? I don't think it is. Setting the community mindset to deal with this however, to make what is possible done.. rare probably, if it happens at all.

On one hand I'm glad SE opened up discussions like this. On the other, I fear it becoming like WoW where they let the community bully them into what they want whether it is good, bad, or another thing; there has to be some balance I hope they find the high road. Unfortunately I think if they do it will end up frustrating many players because no one likes good compromise.

[Rezeak]

Erg it's not that clear cut....

I really don't want to do the maths on it so i'll try and keep it basic...

Mobs gain (Base TP + 3)*(subtle blow mod)

It's the +3 that is the reason that MNKs DNCs NINs need subtle blow otherwise mobs would gain crazy tp.

Also jobs that use two handed weapons and store tp to get certain hit build feed the lowest amount of tp to a mob per 100tp.

RNG is pretty much the same too.

Any comparing DD for feeding tp is really dumb since there all really close when you work it out for how much tp you feed to a mob every 100 tp.

Either way it's more to do with how many DDs u have on mob than what the DDs.
And it depends a hell of alot more on how much haste/snapshot/rapid shot a DD has on than what job it is.

[Kurosen]

Yes, well, I'm also tired of how every MMO I look into, I see people whining about how they don't want whatever to be "easy mode" because WoW did X, things are "supposed" to be rare, some guy they'll never ever want to play with anyway is hurting their game by not "earning" something, people with no lives should be better rewarded, or whatever bullsquat excuse is played. As is, death carries the following penalties even without EXP loss:

1) Time spent waiting for a raise is potential loot and EXP not gained.
2) Waiting on Weakness is similar to 1, though partially offset if you're a non-critical role in a group.
3) If solo and 1 isn't possible, further time is lost if returning to the area you died in.
4) You potentially hamper quest/mission progress.
5) If solo, you'll obviously have to start over again on a specific mob if that was your goal. This can be tied to 4.
6) If you were after a contested monster, it might not be there when you return.

Overall, regardless of the game, it's rare the process of EXPing is what people consider fun. Making people have to do more of the things they don't enjoy is a surefire way to discontent and possible account cancellation. As juvenile as some may feel it, people have quit over the EXP loss mechanic. It made classes like THF hate themselves back in the day as popular sacrificial pullers in Dynamis, only to never get invited to EXP later. PLDs went through similar simply tanking. Nowadays this isn't so much a concern since endgame EXP is certainly more superfluous, but that generosity isn't as prevalent in the lowbie levels. In general, how you EXP doesn't exactly reflect how you would behave in an endgame environment, either. Ever hear talk of how "Campaign noobs" sucked at their jobs because they were meleeing mages or wearing some kind of non-standard gear? Well, that's kind of replaced by Abyssea leeches today, but the moment any mob does more than just auto-attack/TP move/cast spells once engaged like with EXP, you'll need to learn on the fly.

You know now that I think about it. I don't know what I'm really complaining about. Maybe its just hatred for how easy Abyssea is, When you make 30-99 in about 12 hours (or something like that, I haven't tried it) it just seems no one learns their job, then cram the server with people who don't know what they are doing, making looking to do quests and missions harder on certain servers if you don't have any friends anymore....but I digress, I'm getting off topic

[Anathiel]

What has two thumbs and loves the job adjustments? This guy.

[Urteil]

What has two thumbs and loves the job adjustments? This guy.

(o¬_¬)|"' Indeed my good chap.

[blowfin]

I wish people would stop acting surprised every update when RDM doesn't get more melee gear...

[Duelle]

I wish people would stop acting surprised every update when RDM doesn't get more melee gear...The developers are ignoring the elephant in the room. Hell, it's already wrecked the furniture and keeps fidgeting as if it wants to go to the bathroom, but the devs keep happily ignoring it. Should we not act surprised?

[Tamarsamar]

I wish people would stop acting surprised every update when RDM doesn't get more melee gear...

The very fact that it's not surprising is what makes it all the more objectionable!

If you want surprising, the level cap increases to 80 and 85 were (to different degrees) actually rather kind to us in the melee equipment department, and for this the dev team still has my utmost appreciation. If they could keep that direction up and give us Fencer finally, I quite simply couldn't ask for anything more.

[blowfin]

The developers are ignoring the elephant in the room. Hell, it's already wrecked the furniture and keeps fidgeting as if it wants to go to the bathroom, but the devs keep happily ignoring it. Should we not act surprised?

RDM is already an exceptionally strong job. They can't just keep adding to it's utility, i feel something else would need to be sacrificed if it were given more melee DD potential. If you could sacrifice something about the job to get what you wanted, what would that thing be?

[Seriha]

Now, now, if RDM actually got attention, you wouldn't be able to whine about me on BG.

[Duelle]

RDM is already an exceptionally strong job. They can't just keep adding to it's utility, i feel something else would need to be sacrificed if it were given more melee DD potential. If you could sacrifice something about the job to get what you wanted, what would that thing be?You ask the fatal question, my friend. In Duelleland, where the fun never stops at only $50 a pop, Refresh I and II turned into self-cast only spells.

Since that'll never happen (not to mention the sh*tstorm that would come from the career backrow RDMs), I'd say RDM would need a mechanic through which to shift resources and stats. Good melee, decent & reliable enfeebling, below-average support. Good support, decent & reliable healing, below-average melee. Nuking can be made to fit somewhere in there, prefferably with 3-5 yalm range for nukes while in melee mode, but either shorter cast times or instant casts on a 1-minute cooldown. That way, you can't do everything at once on RDM by cluttering your inventory with gear.

I'm well aware that any meaningful change would require a notable amount of work and rebalancing, but that's where I stand on the matter.

[AtrixWolfe]

Erg it's not that clear cut....

I really don't want to do the maths on it so i'll try and keep it basic...

Mobs gain (Base TP + 3)*(subtle blow mod)

It's the +3 that is the reason that MNKs DNCs NINs need subtle blow otherwise mobs would gain crazy tp.

Also jobs that use two handed weapons and store tp to get certain hit build feed the lowest amount of tp to a mob per 100tp.

RNG is pretty much the same too.

Any comparing DD for feeding tp is really dumb since there all really close when you work it out for how much tp you feed to a mob every 100 tp.

Either way it's more to do with how many DDs u have on mob than what the DDs.
And it depends a hell of alot more on how much haste/snapshot/rapid shot a DD has on than what job it is.


See things like this is why I really am starting to despise posting any input at all.
A) The rest of my post was ignored
B) You're basically saying something not true in a very condescending tone for what I can only gather is the sake of it.

You're basically saying "Subtle blow doesn't matter. All DD's are the same". I'm sorry but everything in existence points to the contrary. For one, observations I have to contrary. Try having two Thieves hit on a mob. Then switch to one Thief and one Ranger and notice the HUGE difference in tp feeding. If you think 25% reduction in the tp given is equivalent to zero... lol at you. I've seen it's effects and it's huge.

No other job that I know of, can just basically get zero delay randomly in attack rounds. Haste? Sure. No other job has something like barrage either. In any case, math is useless if you don't do it right or have improper premise.

Whatever, maybe one day I will find a community that can responsibly discuss things, without having a show and tell for their epeen size, but obviously it isn't this one, here, or now. I had high hopes yet again, for some stupid reason, I guess have fun QQing about jobs that were over useful forever (RDM), and about updates that along with enmity upgrades in gear, and atma make them pretty useful (RNG), and don't focus on other things like jobs that were undervalued for long periods of time (WHM) are coming into full use again.. I get the feeling people are just forming little popularity cliques, all this just pretty much makes me not want to input anything at all, leaving SE to the mercy of your whiney salty tears... See, good input, ignored, then you focus on saying ridiculous things like "Subtle blow does not matter all". Might as well say haste doesn't haste, or defense doesn't help mitigate damage. Well, laters. It was fun while it lasted, I suppose.

[Seriha]

I don't think it's so much the matter of actual TP feed, but I believe the larger a chunk of damage done, the higher the possibility a mob will react with a TP if it has TP. I find things like Shadow mobs are more sensitive to this behavior as darn near time I can think I've WSed them and them still being over 25%, they almost always counter with Dimensional Death if they have TP (And given the +3 thing, it usually means they do).

[Keyln]

no exp loss levels 1 - 30 is a huge slap in the face for everyone who leveled up in valkurm dunes, which is more than likely eveveryone who has played FFXI. Crazy just crazy even with all the rr items and fov buffs. WOW is exp meaning nothing to the MMORPG anymore... ...

Well, that's the evolution of things. And speaking as one who's played FFXI since 2002, I, for one, welcome this change. I think games should be about adventure and killing hard things, not endlessly killing the same thing over and over just to fill bars.

Cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it. :P

[Urteil]

Lol you give RDM and BLU MORE STUFF?


DRK better get some kind of mini-impact and Drain III at the minimum.

[blowfin]

Good melee, decent & reliable enfeebling, below-average support. Good support, decent & reliable healing, below-average melee. Nuking can be made to fit somewhere in there, prefferably with 3-5 yalm range for nukes while in melee mode, but either shorter cast times or instant casts on a 1-minute cooldown. That way, you can't do everything at once on RDM by cluttering your inventory with gear.

I'm well aware that any meaningful change would require a notable amount of work and rebalancing, but that's where I stand on the matter.

So basically you want RDM to be anything other than the master of enfeebling and support magic, the role that that job obviously focuses on from a very early level. Gotcha.

Honestly I don't know why you guys don't level another job, RDM is not going to deviate that much from it's current path on the way to 99. Hell they even created BLU as a more powerful DD melee mage, and it fits exactly into the niche that y'all seem to be desiring. I know there is an urban myth that RDM is supposed to be some sort of sword master, but SE also published articles that said an army of mute BLM's that kicked ass with their melee skills existed. We all know how likely that one is.

[Supersun]

Since when is Red Mage the master of support magic? Last I checked 90% of Rdms enhancing spells are self target only and the only ones that are AoEable are the ones Sch already has access too. Or are you just referring to Refresh and Haste because last I checked those are subbable now and a job being defined "the master of support magic" because of 2 spells that everyone has access to (especially at 99 by subbing the job itself) is a terrible definition.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Good melee, decent & reliable enfeebling, below-average support. Good support, decent & reliable healing, below-average melee.

But these already exist; it's just that the first one is called BLU. The mechanism for having a job that takes a completely different role is *job change*. It's available from any moogle. There's no good reason to have one individual job pulled in so many directions at once. And there's no indication that the devs ever intended RDM to continue meleeing on very high level opponents (outside of situations like campaign, where below-average melee is ok).

RDM can't out-melee melee jobs that can't do anything else; that would be like a DD with shadows out-tanking a tank job... ok, bad example, but hopefully SE will fix that eventually.

Best-in-game enfeebling and enhancing, second-rate but serviceable nuking and healing, below-average melee is where RDM has always been, and where it's almost certainly going to stay. And below-average melee isn't going to be terribly desirable in group situations when there are lots of melee-focused jobs.

Tranquil Heart is lol for whm, they already have cure V+ which have massive -enmity built in, but RDM and SCH definitely can get unwanted enmity from cure IV spam, especially when lowmanning with something like THF/NIN. (Let alone Accession Cure IV.)

[Seriha]

Just gonna mimic the "Wut?" of RDM being a superior enhancer. Enfeebler is also pretty open for debate.

Let's compare RDM to BLU.

RDM:
Slow (29.3% Slow, ST)
*Slow II (39% Slow, ST)
Paralyze (ST)
*Paralyze II (ST)
Blind (-20ACC, ST)
*Blind II (-30ACC, ST)
Bind (ST)
Silence (ST)
Gravity (-10EVA, Weight, ST)
Sleep (Dark-based 60s Sleep, ST)
Sleep II (Dark-based 90s Sleep, ST)
Poison (ST)
Poison II (ST)
Dia (-5% DEF, ST)
Dia II (-10% DEF, ST)
*Dia III (-15% DEF, ST)
Diaga (-5% DEF, AoE)
Bio (-5% ATK, ST)
Bio II (-10% ATK, ST)
*Bio III (-15% ATK, ST)
Addle (-Fast Cast%, ST)
Dispel (Dark-based -1 buff)

* denotes a merit spell at full investment.

BLU:
Sandspin (-ACC, Radial)
Sprout Smack (Slow, ST)
Wild Oats (-VIT, ST)
Queasyshroom (Poison, ST)
Battle Dance (-DEX, Radial)
Head Butt (Stun, ST)
Feather Storm (Poison, ST)
Sheep Song (Light-based Sleep, Radial)
Blastbomb (Bind, small AoE)
Poison Breath (Poison, Conal)
Soporific (Dark-based Sleep, Radial)
Sound Blast (-INT, Radial)
Chaotic Eye (Silence, Gaze)
Pinecone Bomb (Sleep, ST)
Blank Gaze (Light-based -1 buff, ST)
Mysterious Light (Weight, Radial)
Terror Touch (-ATK, ST)
Venom Shell (Poison, Radial)
Blitzstrahl (Stun, ST)
Stinking Gas (-VIT, Radial)
Magnetite Cloud (Weight, Conal)
Geist Wall (Dark-based -1 buff, AoE)
Awful Eye (-STR, Conal)
Jettatura (Terror, Conal Gaze)
Ice Break (Bind, AoE)
Frightful Roar (-DEF%, Radial)
Cold Wave (-AGI, Radial)
Filamented Hold (Slow, Conal)
Hecatomb Wave (Blind, Conal)
Radiant Breath (Slow, Silence, Conal)
Light of Penance (-TP, ST)
Spiral Spin (-ACC, ST)
Maelstrom (-STR, Radial)
Seedspray (-DEF, ST)
Bad Breath (...fight Malboro, Conal)
Frypan (Stun, Radial)
Feather Tickle (-TP, ST)
Yawn (Light-based Sleep, Gaze)
Voracious Trunk (Absorbs 1 buff, ST)
Infrasonics (-EVA, Conal)
Frost Breath (Paralyze, Conal)
Sandspray (Blind, Conal)
Corrosive Ooze (-ATK/DEF%, AoE)
Enervation (-DEF/MDEF, AoE)
Tail Slap (Stun, Conal)
Regurgitation (Bind, ST)
Lowing (Plague, Radial)
Sub-Zero Smash (Paralyze, Conal)
Disseverment (Poison, ST)
Mind Blast (Paralyze, ST)
Temporal Shift (Stun, AoE)
Actinic Burst (Flash, AoE)
Acrid Stream (-MEVA, Conal)
Cimcine Discharge (Slow, AoE)
Whirl of Rage (Stun, AoE)
Benthic Typhoon (-DEF/MDEF%, Conal)
Auroral Drape (Blind, Radial)
Osmosis (Steals 1 buff, ST)
Thermal Pulse (Blind, AoE)
Dream Flower (Sleep, AoE)
Delta Thrust (Plague, ST)
Reaving Wind (-TP, ST)

Overall, that's 22 potential RDM debuffs against BLU's 62. Yes, I'm more than aware of BLU's set point limitations, but let's keep in mind that some of these also deal damage on top of potentially hitting more than one target, which means more time for the BLU to do other things. As is, BLU also gets a wider variety of debuffs, as RDM can't affect a mob's MEVA without Death Blossom, for example. Thankfully, some of these do stack between the jobs, but I'd also say there's a reason you never see a pure enfeebler BLU: People don't really need enfeebles that much.

[Carth]

RDM can't out-melee melee jobs that can't do anything else; that would be like a DD with shadows out-tanking a tank job... ok, bad example, but hopefully SE will fix that eventually.
It was fixed in the ToAU era. Now in Abyssea it's more like "Counter/Retaliation/Evasion/Shadows out-tanking a tank job".

[Andylynn]

If you want change for rdm, I have one piece of advice, level sch or blu.

[Sethimothy]

I'm excited. PUP becomes more of a powerhouse, mages can cure without even watching the screen now (seriously, it was only minimally difficult to refrain from gaining too much enmity as a healer and the times that one did gain too much was often a sign of needing to learn to cure more efficiently or to gain a better tank), and leveling to 30 is now easier to do when botting (which is perfect because after soloing/botting your way to 30 that's when Abyssea starts.) This is clearly the best update ever. In July, I anticipate mages getting an extra hundred MP per ten levels starting at level 20, PUPs H2H rating being raised to S (which will be the first ever) and the experience penalty being dropped entirely.

[Duelle]

So basically you want RDM to be anything other than the master of enfeebling and support magic, the role that that job obviously focuses on from a very early level. Gotcha.Someone annoyed that a melee mage is used as something else. Shocking, isn't it?

There's nothing focused on in the early levels. People's desperation for cures (again, this is the game that turned summoner into the joke that was /WHM for several years) are very different from what you mention.

If you want change for rdm, I have one piece of advice, level sch or blu.Ah, yes. The "look away from the problem and it'll go away!" approach. My car insurance bill that was not through Geico has arrived and what I'm paying All-State annoys me! I'll just put a sheet of paper over it and it'll go away!

[Sethimothy]

Ah, yes. The "look away from the problem and it'll go away!" approach. My car insurance bill that was not through Geico has arrived and what I'm paying All-State annoys me! I'll just put a sheet of paper over it and it'll go away!

That example is bad and you should feel bad. A better analogy from what you're pulling from would be "My insurance bill that was not through Geico has arrived and what I'm paying All-State annoys me! Rather than switching to Geico, which will save me more money and has the features that are right for me, I will demand that All-State become Geico, only better, even if All-State is perfectly acceptable to a certain group of players who have little to no interest in Geico."

[blowfin]

Someone annoyed that a melee mage is used as something else.

Your annoyance is misdirected though. RDM was never meant to be a "Melee Mage". This is purely a player driven myth.


Since when is Red Mage the master of support magic? Last I checked 90% of Rdms enhancing spells are self target only and the only ones that are AoEable are the ones Sch already has access too. Or are you just referring to Refresh and Haste because last I checked those are subbable now and a job being defined "the master of support magic" because of 2 spells that everyone has access to (especially at 99 by subbing the job itself) is a terrible definition.

You guys aren't going to convince the general player base of this, nor do I think you're going to convince SE. You have done a fine job of convincing yourselves that RDM is somehow not going in the intended direction though.

RDM has unique, meritable enfeebling and enhancing magic. Have you even looked at your merits categories yet? It has unique spells at lvl 90 which make it a very strong support and enfeebling mage. It's pretty obviously been designed as the master enfeebler and support mage class. Also, AOE buffs generally aren't that useful. Unless you're allergic to casting on multiple people.

Again, if you don't like the direction of the job, level something else. It's obvious some of you aren't enjoying RDM.


Thankfully, some of these do stack between the jobs, but I'd also say there's a reason you never see a pure enfeebler BLU: People don't really need enfeebles that much.

No, that's a load of nonsense. It's because BLU is more of a melee and DD mage, and as you said yourself, the spell sets mean you're never going to be able to have access to all of those spells at the same time. I mean you guys can typecast your own jobs and other jobs all you want. Even go so far as to suggest an alternate role for other jobs so these suggestions for RDM seem more rational. It's obvious some of you are never going to see sense.

I do wonder if this isn't all a big case of the grass being greener somewhere else too. The other kinds of notions that I seem to see when the RDM melee thing comes up:
- We can't cure like WHM's
- We can't nuke as hard as other mages

My response (surprisingly) to all of that is: Level WHM or BLM instead.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm was never meant to be a melee mage when it has the second highest combat stats of the mage jobs pre TAU what? Before Convert and Refresh Rdm was so horrible Rdm/War was a viable job combination because the players had no idea what to do with the job because it was useless.

Rdm has 4-5 "unique" enfeebles, and by 99 Whm is getting Addle leaving you with DiaIII/Slow/Para/Blind 2, enhancing magic it has 1 that isn't self target, Phalanx 2. It isn't a master support class, Whm and Sch are better support jobs than Rdm is. I don't know where you get Sch sucks from either, at 75 Sch was already better at nuking than Blm and with the Sublimation buff/more autorefresh gear/Convert from /Rdm, MP isn't an issue for them anymore. They're only not wanted right now because they can't proc as many grellow spells as Blm can.

Your final sentence is just classic, you admit people don't need need enfeebles, so why would they invite what you consider the class specializing in enfeebles (when this is debateable)?

[blowfin]

Before Convert and Refresh Rdm was so horrible Rdm/War was a viable job combination because the players had no idea what to do with the job because it was useless.

This is exactly my point. To give RDM more utility it was given more strength as a mage, not as a melee DD.

I remember quite clearly when RDM started to shift to being more of a back line job. It's right around level 30 or so. There were little things like not being able to perform an duties in a party if i got paralyzed by AOE.


Your final sentence is just classic, you admit people don't need need enfeebles, so why would they invite what you consider the class specializing in enfeebles (when this is debateable)?

I never "admitted" that anywhere. Here's the thing though. In general I think RDM is an underutilized job in Abyssea. Maybe only because the general playerbase tends to extrapolate from what's seen as optimal and therefore, RDM gets overlooked a lot. What are the strengths RDM can bring to the table at the moment though? The things i've been outlining as their strengths. Certainly not because of melee DD capability, even with CDC.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There is no extrapolation, Rdm is about as useful as Paladin inside abyssea, that is, not at all. Outside abyssea, with the additional refresh other mages have, Rdm still won't be that useful from a curing/support healing standpoint and is inferior from a nuking standpoint. What would Rdm bring to a party? 3 enfeebles that aren't needed.

[blowfin]

There is no extrapolation, Rdm is about as useful as Paladin inside abyssea, that is, not at all.

Depending on the situation a RDM in the group can prove quite useful. If you're low manning then sure, it doesn't make quite so much sense.


Outside abyssea, with the additional refresh other mages have, Rdm still won't be that useful.

I really doubt that actually, and certainly not only because of refresh. Either way, we'll see on the other side of the update.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Name one situation outside of addle (Whm is getting soon) or Phalanx 2 while cleaving Rdm is quite useful in a group setting then.

[blowfin]

Name one situation outside of addle (Whm is getting soon) or Phalanx 2 while cleaving Rdm is quite useful in a group setting then.

As an enfeebler, enhancer, backup healer. Against any number of the harder NM's in Abyss RDM is a useful Auxilliary mage if you have the bodies for it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

2/3 a second Whm or Sch would be better at, leaving enfeebles which aren't needed.

[Thelron]

This is exactly my point. To give RDM more utility it was given more strength as a mage, not as a melee DD.

I remember quite clearly when RDM started to shift to being more of a back line job. It's right around level 30 or so. There were little things like not being able to perform an duties in a party if i got paralyzed by AOE.



I never "admitted" that anywhere. Here's the thing though. In general I think RDM is an underutilized job in Abyssea. Maybe only because the general playerbase tends to extrapolate from what's seen as optimal and therefore, RDM gets overlooked a lot. What are the strengths RDM can bring to the table at the moment though? The things i've been outlining as their strengths. Certainly not because of melee DD capability, even with CDC.

RDM only had trouble performing party duties due to AoE if you were in a party that needed you in the back line. Granted, the general shortage of WHMs and general glut of DDs meant you were often along mainly to heal but nothing suddenly made you incapable of performing front-line duties if that's what you were there for (in fact you get some great stuff starting in the 30s just for that). Sure, you were never going to show up a DRK DD (who's also can't perform his party duties if paralyzed by AoE) if all you did was auto-attack but in a good party you'd not be far behind if people knew what they were doing. It still works, too, if the party model isn't "spam all melee or all magic."

In a supporting role we were always actually somewhat lackluster unless you got *really* creative anyway- Refresh was the only real claim to fame, DRKs, BLMs, NINs, and anyone with a crossbow could make a passable enfeebler, we get no inherent status cures, and no AoE protection magic. Our capability as healers was *entirely* down to Convert but just like SMN/WHM, people didn't care because that's what they needed people for. Pretty much any caster/WHM was a potential healer (how often did you bring in BLM/SMNs who "wanted the MP" when you could have a BLM/WHM to help cure?).

The main thing that bugs me isn't so much some dissatisfaction with the job evolution (aside from this Tranquil Heart junk), it's that the style of much of the game has changed so that you just *can't* get anywhere by being versatile (which *is* the hallmark of the job, unlike WHM which is "healer" or BLU which is heavily oriented towards damage). When there are no SC's to burst on it doesn't matter how well you can make up the difference between you and a pure DD by also being the backup heal and helping out on party support (rather than needing party resources for support), and when the most important enfeeble is an AoE that we *can't access* there's not much to recommend us for a healer slot if there's a WHM or SCH around especially now that anyone can Convert. I'd say at least we still have our damage mitigation, but that just put us near PLD and it seems that PLD these days is either not so great if it isn't /NIN, or overkill and passed up for a pure DD (since they can't really leverage "and healing/off-tank" to get a DD slot these days either).

That basically leaves us off solo, which is great and all, but that's called BST (not that it should have been, but that was another case of the mythical majority completely alienating a job because of misunderstood potential), aside from when a group finally *does* need a specific enfeeble for a specific fight.


RDM has unique, meritable enfeebling and enhancing magic. Have you even looked at your merits categories yet? It has unique spells at lvl 90 which make it a very strong support and enfeebling mage. It's pretty obviously been designed as the master enfeebler and support mage class. Also, AOE buffs generally aren't that useful. Unless you're allergic to casting on multiple people.

Wonderful! Now give me back a party dynamic where it matters.


No, that's a load of nonsense. It's because BLU is more of a melee and DD mage, and as you said yourself, the spell sets mean you're never going to be able to have access to all of those spells at the same time. I mean you guys can typecast your own jobs and other jobs all you want. Even go so far as to suggest an alternate role for other jobs so these suggestions for RDM seem more rational. It's obvious some of you are never going to see sense.

So, the fact that some jobs have alternate roles doesn't make sense? Or you just don't like people using the fact that a lot of jobs can fill more than one role to justify the job seen from the start of the series and even listed *in the manual* as being multi-role actually getting to remain multi-role? I guess there aren't actually any NINs after all since they wouldn't make sense what with their ability to do more than one role, PLDs too for that matter. If BLU had been around pre-ToAU I'd *love* to see how "more of a melee mage" would work out for getting them out of healing duties...

Even with most players mindlessly spamming WSs or teirIV/V magic though, a lot of us would still like the *option* to play the game we got hooked on, so huge (ok, potentially huge, since plenty of "enhances" or "reduces" turn out to be pretty small amounts) shifts in the capabilities of a job or combination of jobs 10 years in *do* tend to chafe a bit- WHM getting an ability to make them able to heal more makes plenty of sense, and I can see it for SCH, but I don't see any reason whatsoever to give it to RDM, both because it undermines capabilities (namely tanking, at least without using bar/blind spam for hate instaed of healing) and because it's a very specific and unneeded trait (where's our enmity- for nukes, or other black magic related ability? This is like giving WAR built-in counter and guard. Also, an RDM who's having enmity issues from Curing that they can't deal with is either in a bad party or woefully under-prepared). I don't see anyone lining up to give the higher MAB and MDB tiers to RDM, nor decrying the job's lack of Clear Mind IV/V, either, so it doesn't seem like people are too concerned about making the job actually better at casting, just about being bitter that a job doesn't want to get pigeonholed?

I do have one question about this, though: Why is this not being added as an ability, like Avatar's Favor? Since it *does* have the potential to impact a lot of things people do (even if PLD/WHM turned out to be exceedingly rare and most folks don't count on the RDM to handle emergencies anymore, plenty of people like to get RDMs to help with 2 or 3 person fights and I see plenty of PLDs doing similar as /WHM and /RDM now that they don't have any party tanking to do) why is it an always-on can't-kill-it-if-you-try trait? That would make the healers happy when their party doesn't have a clue, without up-ending the boat for people who haven't mentally erased all memory of life before burns.

[blowfin]

That basically leaves us off solo, which is great and all, but that's called BST (not that it should have been, but that was another case of the mythical majority completely alienating a job because of misunderstood potential), aside from when a group finally *does* need a specific enfeeble for a specific fight.

Right, and if you`re not solo, you`re in a party curing and support, which RDM`s seem to hate too. Where are you people actually happy then?

Also, BST was alienated because people were stupid and didn't understand how the EXP penalty worked, not because the job itself was misunderstood. RDM is hardly in the same boat, it`s gone through phases of IMMENSE popularity in this game, and it hardly suffered from a stigma such as the EXP pentaly.

As for the demand for RDM, i`d wait and reserve any judgement until after the update. Chances are they`re going to be quite valuable for the new content.


it's that the style of much of the game has changed so that you just *can't* get anywhere by being versatile

Versatility is the hallmark of this game. But it comes in the form of `change jobs`, not having it all in one job.

[Abadacchus]

Looks like it's time to clean the rust off my scythe. Very excited for the upcoming Job Adjustments! :)

[Duelle]

Right, and if you`re not solo, you`re in a party curing and support, which RDM`s seem to hate too. Where are you people actually happy then?Solo doesn't mean much in a game that was built around partying from the ground up.

Also, BST was alienated because people were stupid and didn't understand how the EXP penalty worked, not because the job itself was misunderstood. RDM is hardly in the same boat, it`s gone through phases of IMMENSE popularity in this game, and it hardly suffered from a stigma such as the EXP pentaly.Immense popularity because the job was a gravy train to 75 and merit groups, specially after TAU hit and people decided to kick WHM to the curb and use RDM as a healer with a bard as puller. It was literally the closest thing you could get to a princess job without dealing with the crappy leveling on BRD up until you got Ballad and March. It was also the one of only two ways for anyone with an MP bar to recover MP because the devs were too lazy to make it inherent to all classes with an MP bar. In short, the reason people wanted RDM so much was because they were desperate for anyone with cures (see: SMN/WHM) and because mages were addicted to Refresh and Ballad as if it were crack. That's called inflating the value of a job through a gimmick. A bad one a that. It's what is known as bad design.

[blowfin]

In short, the reason people wanted RDM so much was because they were desperate for anyone with cures (see: SMN/WHM) and because mages were addicted to Refresh and Ballad as if it were crack. That's called inflating the value of a job through a gimmick. A bad one a that. It's what is known as bad design.

Um, no. RDM was the most efficient healer for merit parties for way more reasons than that. Hell, you're talking about mages (plural) when for the vast majority of the time, RDM and BRD could handle the demands of merits parties quite easily. Apart from that RDM was heavily desired in end game because of the excellent support and unique enfeebles it brought to the table. I feel like i'm repeating myself now though.

It's also downright scary that you'd go so far as to call mages 'addicted to refresh and ballad like crack'. Do you know why refresh and ballad were so popular? Because they improve the utility of jobs with MP quite heavily. They enabled us to do things which werent possible with more limited MP. You wanted to kill something hard in this game? RDM was just about essential (and for far more reasons than refresh, even though it does play a big part).

Refresh (and refresh II) are an incredible asset, hardly gimmicks. Once again, If you don't like applying the assets that your job brings to the table or find them tedious or boring, maybe level something else?

[Neisan_Quetz]

So the solution for Rdm in a party setting is level Whm/Blm/Sch/Blu? Good to know Andlynn was right then.

[Duelle]

Refresh (and refresh II) are an incredible asset, hardly gimmicks.You seem to be unable to perceive how party dynamics work. RDM pre-refresh was overlooked because it was mediocre at pretty much everything. At the same time leveling was slow because you had to take MP breaks which means the whole party has to stop killing. Instead of doing something that wouldn't screw the job and avoided conflict between concept and practice (RDM being a melee mage vs parties desperate for MP regeneration and heals), they tossed Refresh in as a band-aid and called it a day.

A job being responsible for MP regeneration is a gimmick. A bad one when its sole value and desireability was based on that alone. You didn't invite RDM for enfeebles. You invited them because your PLD tank, your BLMs or the WHM in the group needed a way to recover MP and Bards were stupidly rare. Even SMN at one point wanted to get in on the gravy train by asking for refresh at one of the fanfest developer panels a couple of years ago. Humorously enough, that request was booed out of the room.

Note: If you need further evidence to why refresh was a horrible gimmick to stick RDM to, you need not look further than Atmas and the raising of the level cap.

Note2: Either way, I think I'm done here. I don't want to derail the thread any further. Even if on other forums it has morphed into cries of joy over the DRK changes or complaining about RNG needing more changes.

[blowfin]

RDM pre-refresh

Existed about 10 years ago, for a very short period in the games life span. Its probably time to let it go and stop using it as a reference point for what you think the job should be. All jobs change vastly after level 30, RDM is no different.

Again though, I would hardly call something that became an essential part of game mechanics a gimmick.


So the solution for Rdm in a party setting is level Whm/Blm/Sch/Blu? Good to know Andlynn was right then.

The solution is to show people why RDM doesnt suck. Im having a very hard time being convinced that any of you actually want to do that though.

[Supersun]

The solution is to show people why RDM doesnt suck. Im having a very hard time being convinced that any of you actually want to do that though.

How could we have been so naive. All of Dark Knights problems would have been solved if players would have just shown us that they don't suck. I mean why buff any job with that flawless logic when all you need is have the dedicated players of that job stop sucking.

[blowfin]

How could we have been so naive. All of Dark Knights problems would have been solved if players would have just shown us that they don't suck. I mean why buff any job with that flawless logic when all you need is have the dedicated players of that job stop sucking.

The dedicated DRKs got themselves empyrean weapons and skilled up other weapons so they could be useful for red procs if they didn't have war or want to level it. Thats the kind of thing im talking about.

However, its kind of besides the point, seeing as RDM isnt broken.

[Seriha]

Apparently having more MP equates to using it more efficiently, too. Sorry, but RDM got by using brute force in the healing game, and even that would come crashing down in heavy AoE situations. Fancy that how the most preferred EXP mobs often had non-threatening TP moves to curb that risk.

[blowfin]

Apparently having more MP equates to using it more efficiently, too. Sorry, but RDM got by using brute force in the healing game, and even that would come crashing down in heavy AoE situations. Fancy that how the most preferred EXP mobs often had non-threatening TP moves to curb that risk.

With a good setup RDM hardly needed to cure at all in bird parties. Not even sure what you're trying to get at with that. Brute force had nothing to do with it.

[Supersun]

With a good setup RDM hardly needed to cure at all in bird parties. Not even sure what you're trying to get at with that. Brute force had nothing to do with it.

With a great setup though the Rdm was spamming cures and riding that convert timer since that allowed the DDs to /sam and ride hassao instead of forcing them to /nin

[Neisan_Quetz]

The solution is to show people why RDM doesnt suck. Im having a very hard time being convinced that any of you actually want to do that though.

You still haven't answered how Rdm is useful in a party setting at all over any of the alternatives. If the only points you can bring up are useful for solo/duo, then that doesn't make the job useful now does it? especially when other jobs solo faster than Rdm can (to varying degrees).

[Seriha]

Might be best to just give up on him and never expect that answer, let alone a good one. He's been rather antagonistic toward RDM's status back on Alla in the past, so it's unsurprising to see it here.

As is, it's hard not to see where RDM falls behind compared to others.
WHM: Cura(ga)s, Esuna, Native Status Cures, Solace, Misery, AoE Boost spells, Auspice
BLM: -agas, T5s, AMs, Enmity Douse, Mana Wall, Native Aspirs, Sleepgas
Melees: The only things a RDM shouldn't lose to here are a BLM or SCH, SMN depending on how you factor the Avatar.

The above only gets worse if you start throwing procs into the picture, as RDM needs a special sub to do sword and club stuff while not even having all the dagger procs for blue. Aside from light, we're mostly 2 per game day, but that's something BLM and SCH also have covered. So, there's nothing unique going on to convince people that having a RDM around is a difference maker or, on the curative front, a liability against more difficult NMs.

Upping the job's diversity isn't a bad thing. Some of us happen to feel it could be better achieved through melee and not limiting this to just damage, but also utility. You can stomp around until you're blue in the face thinking that's how it shouldn't be, but none of that addresses the increasing homogenization of the mage jobs subbing RDM, or in SCH's case, being more like a backline RDM from the start with better tools for both support and nuking.

[blowfin]

Might be best to just give up on him and never expect that answer, let alone a good one. He's been rather antagonistic toward RDM's status back on Alla in the past, so it's unsurprising to see it here.

Wow, you really are a venomous piece of work when people don't agree with you. About all I said on Zam was "level a melee job" in response to one (1) thread out of about two thousand whining about RDM melee gear. You know what? It was probably the most sensible thing in the thread.

The thing is though, I do agree with you in part. RDM is underpowered, especially in Abyss. I think this is going to change immensely with new content though. I just think this push for MOAR RDM melee gear, if successful, will result in the job being watered down. I can't imagine any of you want that, which is why I keep getting up in this debate.

I do notice that nobody bothered to address my question either, funny how pointing bloody fingers can backfire on you sometimes. What would you have them remove from RDM to get what you want? And yes I said "remove" because RDM is extremely powerful, even if this has been dimished somewhet by Abyss.


With a great setup though the Rdm was spamming cures and riding that convert timer since that allowed the DDs to /sam and ride hassao instead of forcing them to /nin

From memory of Aht Urghan, great setups didn't work mages into the ground for an extra couple of k an hour like they were a pack of rabid dogs. In fact, a lot of RDM's would probably have turned down a party if players were insisting on /sam. Maybe a few parties allowed, and were able to keep up with people subbing SAM, but it was far from normal and the division of labor was pretty clearly much heavier for the RDM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It hasn't been diminished by just Abyssea, it's been diminished by the level cap increase, mages getting more sources of refresh, and mages being able to sub rdm and gain access to both Refresh 1 and convert. Refresh 2 isn't necessary for a Whm to keep up healing outside, and still be a better healer. Sch is still a far better nuker and both are better at enhancing spells bar 1, Phalanx2, which Sch/Rdm can AoE the single target of. Inside Abyssea even with a melee buff, Rdm still won't be wanted for much aside addle until Whm gets it. Outside, possibly depending how big the buff is, would just make the job viable for something that 3 other jobs don't outclass it in when it comes to backline mages (1 in frontline mages).

[blowfin]

It hasn't been diminished by Abyssea, it's been diminished by the level cap increase, mages getting more sources of refresh, and mages being able to sub rdm and gain access to both Refresh 1 and convert. Refresh 2 isn't necessary for a Whm to keep up healing outside, and still be a better healer. Sch is still a far better nuker and both are better at enhancing spells bar 1, Phalanx2, which Sch/Rdm can AoE the single target of. Inside Abyssea even with a melee buff, Rdm still won't be wanted for much aside addle until Whm gets it. Outside, possibly depending how big the buff is, would just make the job viable for something that 3 other jobs don't outclass it in when it comes to backline mages (1 in frontline mages).

So RDM has had what... 9 months not being the most demanded mage in the game?

[Neisan_Quetz]

And if nothing changes Rdm won't be wanted for anything bar 4 exclusive enfeebles.

[Catsby]

Atmas are too strong. What's the point of a support job when you can just plug support atmas into your healer.
Bosses are too poorly designed. What's the point of a support job when you can just brew a strong monster down.

[blowfin]

And if nothing changes Rdm won't be wanted for anything bar 4 exclusive enfeebles.

I really do doubt that, but I guess well have to wait and see until after the update.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Okay, perhaps not completely unwanted, but I still don't see the situation improving by very much.

[Coldbrand]

And if nothing changes Rdm won't be wanted for anything bar 4 exclusive enfeebles.

(That's too bad.)

[Duelle]

Sigh. I figured people would eventually drop the RDM thing, but I see that is not the case.

Atmas are too strong. What's the point of a support job when you can just plug support atmas into your healer.Trying to make "support" the whole point of a job is not and has never been a good idea. This is why design in general eventually moved away from needing classes to specifically act as mezzers (and refresh bots in the case of FFXI) and in turn do what you just mentioned: baking certain aspects into existing roles. Being the guy that's there to only interrupt, or only sleep, or only stun, or only para/slow in the case of RDM isn't much. To those of us that know the class for its various aspects, it's certainly a downer to see only one shine through and the rest tossed to the gutter.

I do notice that nobody bothered to address my question either, funny how pointing bloody fingers can backfire on you sometimes. What would you have them remove from RDM to get what you want? And yes I said "remove" because RDM is extremely powerful, even if this has been dimished somewhet by Abyss.So you forgot my response to your question:

I'd say RDM would need a mechanic through which to shift resources and stats. Good melee, decent & reliable enfeebling, below-average support. Good support, decent & reliable healing, below-average melee. Nuking can be made to fit somewhere in there, prefferably with 3-5 yalm range for nukes while in melee mode, but either shorter cast times or instant casts on a 1-minute cooldown. That way, you can't do everything at once on RDM by cluttering your inventory with gear.Bolded for emphasis. A nerf to switching roles on the fly, but maintaining access to a reasonable level of versatility while on the field (I'm open to discussion on what would be considered reasonable). And yes, that's a huge part of the class as is to remove while keeping the current curebot role. The bonus comes in making a second role available and relevant outside of soloing. It's a win-win.

[Ravenmore]

Whats sad is the best merit parties I ever joined or put together in ToAU didnt need a mage other then brd/nin for march and pulling.

[Dallas]

Melees: The only things a RDM shouldn't lose to here are a BLM or SCH, SMN depending on how you factor the Avatar.
All 3 jobs use the same weapon, but only one melees. If a SMN is meleeing, you might as well assume the avatar is also meleeing. RDM loses on just the melee piece, but has more than enough utility to validate the lost damage.

RDM is the bottom of the melee totem pole. BLM, BRD, and SCH don't even come out to play.

[Supersun]

RDM is the bottom of the melee totem pole...BRD...don't even come out to play.

Actually...about that...I wouldn't be surprised with augmented Rare/Ex gear if Bard finally pulls ahead of Rdm. It's been pretty close up until now.

[Glamdring]

ok, I'll never understand the complaints about rdm not being able to tank. If you want to tank, level a tank job!

that being said, your rdm doesn't have to just sit back and heal. Do what I did leveling evey casting job I've used: 1. draw weapon, 2. whack mob, 3. cast for what you are in the party for while doing 2, 4. tell anyone who complains to STFU until you aren't getting your job done.

there, that was simple wasn't it?

honestly, it's your character, if someone has issues with the way you play it they better be able to back it up by showing how you are not getting your job done, regardless of the job. I've tanked before, and I don't voke every 30 seconds, I use it whenever the mob turns away (unless i need to recast shadows, the cast>>voke); strangely enough that actually works, but to some people I'm "not doing my job". If your job is to keep the party alive and the party is still alive, then you've done your job! You wanna rag on someone save it for the darks that don't stun dangerous moves, or a thief that makes mages pull because they don't want to level ranged attack-news flash, you get hate even if you miss, so you don't have to level ranged attack!

[hiko]

From memory of Aht Urghan, great setups didn't work mages into the ground for an extra couple of k an hour like they were a pack of rabid dogs. In fact, a lot of RDM's would probably have turned down a party if players were insisting on /sam. Maybe a few parties allowed, and were able to keep up with people subbing SAM, but it was far from normal and the division of labor was pretty clearly much heavier for the RDM.

it's more a bad player issue than a job issue, and people that didnt uderstand that faster kill = less curing!
I did pt witj whm & DDs fulltiming hasso that was better than RDM pt where every DDs had to /nin

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

ok, I'll never understand the complaints about rdm not being able to tank. If you want to tank, level a tank job!

No, no, have you not been paying any attention for the last year or two? If you want to tank, level a DD job. Tanking with tank jobs is obsolete.

The main issue with enfeebles is a problem of mob design, and atmas making players too overpowered. It's not something that needs RDM adjustments, it's something that needs adjustments to the overall design of the game to bring back mobs that are actually dangerous and difficult to beat.

[blowfin]

Bolded for emphasis. A nerf to switching roles on the fly, but maintaining access to a reasonable level of versatility while on the field (I'm open to discussion on what would be considered reasonable). And yes, that's a huge part of the class as is to remove while keeping the current curebot role. The bonus comes in making a second role available and relevant outside of soloing. It's a win-win.

I do see what you're getting at actually. Maybe a JA where RDM sacrifices MAB and macc for more melee skill? Or something to that effect. Not that I can see it happening, but I do understand the idea.

[Duelle]

No, no, have you not been paying any attention for the last year or two? If you want to tank, level a DD job. Tanking with tank jobs is obsolete.

The main issue with enfeebles is a problem of mob design, and atmas making players too overpowered. It's not something that needs RDM adjustments, it's something that needs adjustments to the overall design of the game to bring back mobs that are actually dangerous and difficult to beat.This is more due to the fact that people in this game emphasize more on avoiding damage altogether (Utsusemi, Counter) rather than actually mitigating the damage (which is what tank jobs do). The only way I see it fixed would be to nerf counter and utsusemi and start on the fixes and buffs for defense values and shields overall. Problem is nerfing utsu and counter open a can of worms I have a feeling the devs don't want to deal with.

[blowfin]

The only way I see it fixed would be to nerf counter and utsusemi and start on the fixes and buffs for defense values and shields overall. Problem is nerfing utsu and counter open a can of worms I have a feeling the devs don't want to deal with.

Yeah, taking a dump on the rest of the game to fix something that`s not that terribly broken in the first place probably wouldn`t go down too well. I suspect.

[Seriha]

I'm only "venomous" because after seeing years of the same old tired excuses against showing RDM some love, it's only now that it's so bleedingly obvious that you still have people doing the same old anti-update song and dance (It's mostly just their own flavor of spite). Now, if you're going to start demanding they take things away from the job, I might've agreed some at the 75 cap (And still think T4 nukes were a bit curious a move, despite their obvious benefit to the "BLM side" of the job and overall relationship with SCH). However, you could consider the general lack of attention until now it's own preemptive loss. And I've even said in the past that buffing other jobs can be indirect buff to RDM by opening the door toward alternative paths for the job. Still, if we're going to insist on taking things away, I'd start with the various exploits that allowed some of the solos people are so quick to hold over the job's head. SE's dabbled on that some with rage timers, regens, regains, flee speeds, outright immunities, and grav resist building, but they still left things like Bind and various DoTs like Bio and Poison largely untouched. And while some may love pinning, enemy pathing AI really should get a look over to eliminate some of the absurdity when it comes to various obstacles. That a fair enough start?

As is, we're only looking at Thunder IV and Gain-STR/DEX/INT as "guarantees" in the future updates, with them not even being a consideration this update with the cap increase stalled. If we knew SE was going to make up for these past 15 levels, I'd let up some. The complete absence of info with the pending adjustments doesn't leave many RDMs with high morale (again... we're a strangely masochistic bunch when it comes to hope for change). Is there a "Part II" ahead? We dunno. We'll be sad if not, though.

[Duelle]

Yeah, taking a dump on the rest of the game to fix something that`s not that terribly broken in the first place probably wouldn`t go down too well. I suspect.Outside of stuff like Minhocao, I don't know of any NMs or bosses that are balanced entirely around utsusemi, so I'd like you to enlighten me, please.

[Carth]

Outside of stuff like Minhocao, I don't know of any NMs or bosses that are balanced entirely around utsusemi, so I'd like you to enlighten me, please.
Pretty much everything pre-level cap increase. Blood Tanking can work, but only PLD can do that effectively. Even then, you're still asking for all healers to dump MP on you. I think the only exception is Sky Gods since Utsusemi back then was only just beginning to get exploited.

[blowfin]

Outside of stuff like Minhocao, I don't know of any NMs or bosses that are balanced entirely around utsusemi, so I'd like you to enlighten me, please.

If we're going to talk in in absolutes, then nothing in the game is entirely based around Utsu OR Counter, it's all down to personal preference. Let me think though, off the top of my head Bukhis is a great example where blink tanking shines. In fact, ninja is a great tank for a lot of stuff in Abyss. Then again I'm not sure what i'm trying to prove here (or why I have to prove anything), as nerfing utsu and counter would do nothing to help RDM.


I'm only "venomous" because after seeing years of the same old tired excuses against showing RDM some love, it's only now that it's so bleedingly obvious that you still have people doing the same old anti-update song and dance (It's mostly just their own flavor of spite).

That's the thing though, it's typically not that at all, at least from my point of view. It's people trying to talk sense into the debate and generally being ignored or written off as haters.


Now, if you're going to start demanding they take things away from the job, I might've agreed some at the 75 cap (And still think T4 nukes were a bit curious a move, despite their obvious benefit to the "BLM side" of the job and overall relationship with SCH). However, you could consider the general lack of attention until now it's own preemptive loss. And I've even said in the past that buffing other jobs can be indirect buff to RDM by opening the door toward alternative paths for the job. Still, if we're going to insist on taking things away, I'd start with the various exploits that allowed some of the solos people are so quick to hold over the job's head. SE's dabbled on that some with rage timers, regens, regains, flee speeds, outright immunities, and grav resist building, but they still left things like Bind and various DoTs like Bio and Poison largely untouched. And while some may love pinning, enemy pathing AI really should get a look over to eliminate some of the absurdity when it comes to various obstacles. That a fair enough start?

Personally I'd suggest waiting until 99 and re-examining everything. There's a few jobs that have been left a bit short between 90 and 99, and RDM is certainly one of them. On the other hand, this is the one time in 10 years that RDM has actually had a break from being an extremely popular job.

You start off on the wrong foot by calling things "exploits". "Exploits" are POS hacking and duping items in Salvage. What you're referring to are considered valid strategies by SE, even if you don't see them as such. Actually, over and over again, we've been told that pinning (for example) is a valid strategy, unless you force the mob into a position where you can stand still and it can't actually damage you. It actually takes some skill and half decent gear to do too, which I think is a point missed by a lot of people. By requesting them to "fix" that stuff, you're effectively asking them to screw over a lot of the RDM's who do like to low man and solo things. People who've put a lot of work into their gear and a lot of effort into their job, basically.

[Seriha]

People behaving like all RDMs were out to steal WHM's job or that every one is (interested in) soloing everything under the sun is a stetch at sense, but nonetheless has been used for ages. None can otherwise answer how this theoretical overpowered RDM could handle a 6 man haste/refresh, main cure, nuke, enfeeble, and melee at all the same time if we're suddenly what they think we're asking for. So yes, we've seen plenty of haters over the years.

[Ravenmore]

Well for awhile it did steal whm job least in exp, though fo alot of people a healer is a healer in toau. Sucks though rdm tank will get the final nail in the next update. Again it has been on the top of the pile for a long time, just wait and see what they have planned for 99. Also melees would like to say hi they been there done that over and over.

[Swords]

Well for awhile it did steal whm job least in exp, though fo alot of people a healer is a healer in toau. Sucks though rdm tank will get the final nail in the next update. Again it has been on the top of the pile for a long time, just wait and see what they have planned for 99. Also melees would like to say hi they been there done that over and over.

Not really, people often pigeonholed jobs into a particular nitch if they think it's more practical or useful. Most real non-Bandwagon RDM's and BRD's pre-Abyssea despised Exp/Merit parties because the general populus forced them into something that limited their versatility or what they could do. And it is hard to go from enfeebling, buffing, healing, nuking, MB, and even the occasional melee scenario, to just healing and occasionally buffing.

When Abyssea had came out and hp reached higher than 3k+, Cure IV would'nt cut it. Atmas gave melees such power that mobs die too quick to warrent enfeebles in most situations, and the increased resistances and immunities to enfeebles furhter hindered our strengths in that aspect. Then to top it off, even the need for refresh has greatly dwindled because of Atmas and /RDM. All in all the game and the players put RDM in an uncompromisng position leaving them with little to do.

[Duelle]

If we're going to talk in in absolutes, then nothing in the game is entirely based around Utsu OR Counter, it's all down to personal preference. Let me think though, off the top of my head Bukhis is a great example where blink tanking shines. In fact, ninja is a great tank for a lot of stuff in Abyss. Then again I'm not sure what i'm trying to prove here (or why I have to prove anything), as nerfing utsu and counter would do nothing to help RDM.My response was made at the post that talked about tanking. I simply pointed the finger to the obvious culprits of why certain people feel tank classes like PLD are useless in terms of relative DD survivability.

Personally I'd suggest waiting until 99 and re-examining everything. There's a few jobs that have been left a bit short between 90 and 99, and RDM is certainly one of them. On the other hand, this is the one time in 10 years that RDM has actually had a break from being an extremely popular job.The wait and see approach is fine when you have a decent chance of getting something beneficial and that you actually need. That's not really the case here. We're talking about the job that was one thing but is used as another, with a team of developers that make no actual statement on the class or troll us with stuff like shield mastery. Better to get the foot in the door now than to wait until everything is set and dry, IMO.

It actually takes some skill and half decent gear to do too, which I think is a point missed by a lot of people. By requesting them to "fix" that stuff, you're effectively asking them to screw over a lot of the RDM's who do like to low man and solo things. People who've put a lot of work into their gear and a lot of effort into their job, basically.And yet this is the same stuff that keeps us from getting looked at for changes. It is also the same lame excuse people toss in when RDM asks for changes. I'd give that up in a heartbeat if it meant my class actually took a decent direction and not remained something that would have been hotfixed within hours of being discovered under any other developer team.

[Hayward]

All this talk--more like concern trolling to me--about game balance where RDM is concerned is a lot of junk, blowfin. You know it, and so do your lackeys at BlueGartr and the elitist wannabes at Alla. There is nothing wrong about RDM that can't be fixed with some actual gear/JAs/JTs that re-emphasizes Red Mage as the original "fighter-mage" job. I could care less if that means having to bring in an actual White Mage instead of another [fill in "flavor-of-the-month" melee job].

The thinking of you and your kind is the very reason Estoqueur's Armor has absolutely NOTHING pertinent to close combat. Why should it have such stats when the jackals of this playerbase scream bloody murder at the mere suggestion of Red Mages actually becoming more than capable of contributing on the front lines?

My quick solutions:

*JT: 2 Tiers of Attack Bonus, 1 tier Accuracy Bonus, Fencer, 4 tiers of an Elemental Enhancement Bonus (increasing the damage and accuracy of both tiers of En-spells), 3 tiers of Auto-Haste (stackable with the Haste spell).

*JA: Doublecast (S-E's held out for far too long with this), Bravery, Faith.

[Supersun]

The thinking of you and your kind is the very reason Estoqueur's Armor has absolutely NOTHING pertinent to close combat.

Actually Red Mage's AF3 could VERY easily be spun to be powerful melee armor....If they gave us a powerful Elemental Weaponskill. Now I'm not talking about something like Wildfire, but a powerful elemental weaponskill for the sword that is native to Red Mage would put that armor to good use real fast :D

[Duelle]

Actually Red Mage's AF3 could VERY easily be spun to be powerful melee armor....If they gave us a powerful Elemental Weaponskill. Now I'm not talking about something like Wildfire, but a powerful elemental weaponskill for the sword that is native to Red Mage would put that armor to good use real fast :DThat'd still leave us with sub-par gear for the TP phase compared to what everyone else gets. I also would not accept it unless it is RDM exclusive and takes up Vorpal Blade's place in the list. And is part of a bigger list of changes.

Why does Swordsman's Armor have nothing to do with close combat, again?

[Supersun]

lol I didn't say it was the only fix.

[blowfin]

All this talk--more like concern trolling to me--about game balance where RDM is concerned is a lot of junk, blowfin. You know it, and so do your lackeys at BlueGartr and the elitist wannabes at Alla.

I'm too lazy to troll that hard, sorry.

Also, I have lackeys at BG?:confused:


The thinking of you and your kind is the very reason Estoqueur's Armor has absolutely NOTHING pertinent to close combat. Why should it have such stats when the jackals of this playerbase scream bloody murder at the mere suggestion of Red Mages actually becoming more than capable of contributing on the front lines?

I think it really depends on the way you think of "contributing on the front lines". As far as EXP goes (and apart from it being just about moot in 2011) I don't think RDM is really as far behind as people would make it out to be. I'm assuming a RDM with Aeolian Edge and decent Atmas is a pretty handy thing to have in Abyssea? RDM was mentioned as being a good job to support the Fell Cleave warrior earlier too.

If you're talking about contributing with melee damage for tougher NM fights and the like. Well... 90% of the jobs in this game are generally back line jobs in that situation. I don't think it's realistic to expect to regularly melee in those situations. Being able to support the tanks is fine, but there's the problems of AOE damage (i.e. dead RDM) and feeding needless TP to the NM.

So I guess my point is i'm not seeing the direction of the "fencer mage" being useful in a whole lot of places for RDM. Where exactly does it fit into the game as it currently stands? Maybe it becomes more viable in events like Dynamis but even then, it's barely worth the effort when you are compared with dedicated DD's. Even with buffs and changes it's unreasonable to expect to keep up with them.

[Swords]

Anytime you have 3+ people doing anything that causes damage the TP arguement always becomes moot, and in truth it's always been that way. Melees give mobs tp = (your tp per hit+3) * (numer of hits) and any damaging nuke/enfeeble gives a mob 10tp, so the mobs always have the edge in tp gain. If a mob has a TP move it's going to use it reguardless, in some cases (especially in Abyssea) they're going to spam reguardless of the amount of tp they have and it's still going to hurt just as bad.

I'm not saying everyone should melee it then in those situations cause the AoE still hurts, but I hate the fact everyone tries to use feed TP as a viable arguement to keep anyone out of the frontlines. This is especially true when everyone is on the rage about haste and X-hit weapons, atmas, abilities.

[Seriha]

It actually takes some skill and half decent gear to do too, which I think is a point missed by a lot of people. By requesting them to "fix" that stuff, you're effectively asking them to screw over a lot of the RDM's who do like to low man and solo things. People who've put a lot of work into their gear and a lot of effort into their job, basically.
And yet this is the same stuff that keeps us from getting looked at for changes. It is also the same lame excuse people toss in when RDM asks for changes. I'd give that up in a heartbeat if it meant my class actually took a decent direction and not remained something that would have been hotfixed within hours of being discovered under any other developer team.

It's also a bit of a double standard. Why is okay that "those RDMs" can get what they want, but melee enthusiasts are left hanging? When I talk of those nerfs, it's not from an "OMG I HAET RDM!" mindset, but more of a given purpose of challenge and expectation in a given encounter. If you design a mob for a full alliance, one person should never have a chance. Sure, maybe the elite could cut it down to a single party, but what you try to spin as stratagems are still often exploits, stretching the rules of the code in a way circumvents challenge or difficulty (never getting swung at, negating idle regens by DoT/zoning, etc.). Why are you are more or less encouraging RDMs should do that instead, while a more robust melee style could up their party game and interaction with other players? This is an MMO, right? We should be wanting to play with others, and on the other side of the coin, not work for them.

[svengalis]

i think RDM needs to be looked at with relation Cure 5 being 30 levels late and and the DNC waltz timers split up some

fIf Edmund get cure5 then whims become not needed as much again.

[Urteil]

It's also a bit of a double standard. Why is okay that "those RDMs" can get what they want, but melee enthusiasts are left hanging? When I talk of those nerfs, it's not from an "OMG I HAET RDM!" mindset, but more of a given purpose of challenge and expectation in a given encounter. If you design a mob for a full alliance, one person should never have a chance. Sure, maybe the elite could cut it down to a single party, but what you try to spin as stratagems are still often exploits, stretching the rules of the code in a way circumvents challenge or difficulty (never getting swung at, negating idle regens by DoT/zoning, etc.). Why are you are more or less encouraging RDMs should do that instead, while a more robust melee style could up their party game and interaction with other players? This is an MMO, right? We should be wanting to play with others, and on the other side of the coin, not work for them.


Drain and Aspir III please.

Thank you.