[Suggestion] Equipment from BCNMs only for instanced party.

[Sp1cyryan]

Equipment from things like AMAN Trove and High Tier Battlefields should only be lottable by players from the instance. Not from players that join the party after the fact.

For example players complete an AMAN Trove or certain High Tier Battlefields and then spam yells in town to sell the drops for gil. This is easily a net negative on the game itself.

As an easy solution, only players under the instance status (burning circle icon) should be able to lot items. The BCNM status effect can just be changed to remain on after the end of one in the same manner as the campaign battle status after the end of a campaign. This way players can not just join and lot as they did not participate in the event.

This would go a long way towards fixing some issues in the community.

[Alhanelem]

Agree 100%

[Tarmarkvar]

What's wrong with people selling AMAN Trove drops for gil?

[Alhanelem]

What's wrong with people selling AMAN Trove drops for gil?a lot of ppl dislike mercing in general. i.e. enabling people to eat their cake without getting it themselves

[Sp1cyryan]

What's wrong with people selling AMAN Trove drops for gil?

It's not specifically AMAN trove, but all BCNMs with zones you can lot in without participating in the content.

As for the question directly. Players Merc, buy gil, and/or otherwise spam tells just for AMAN Trove. It's not trove itself, but how it falls into the picture of the whole. Players basically turn XI into an offline Gatcha game. It is hurting the viability of the game itself, and not just the experience of playing it.

[Voidstorm]

I just finished my last ambu weapon, already have nearly every Ou drop, etc.
I have friends who don't have these, why must they sit around in zone + in party while I pop orbs when I can just be like, "hey X dropped, anyone want it? Come get it!" when something finally does drop. (I bring my jeuno bazaar to zone when I trove so there's a party w/ someone who has nothing to make sure it at least shows up in pool)

Unlike Asura, Ragnarok barely has anyone shouting to buy/sell orbs, and there's effectively no merc'ing of drops.

[Sp1cyryan]

I just finished my last ambu weapon, already have nearly every Ou drop, etc.
I have friends who don't have these, why must they sit around in zone + in party while I pop orbs when I can just be like, "hey X dropped, anyone want it? Come get it!" when something finally does drop. (I bring my jeuno bazaar to zone when I trove so there's a party w/ someone who has nothing to make sure it at least shows up in pool)

Unlike Asura, Ragnarok barely has anyone shouting to buy/sell orbs, and there's effectively no merc'ing of drops.

You would just go do it together.

Otherwise, your last point there is entirely moot.

[Voidstorm]

Another example since you mentioned not only TROVE.
Three days ago a friend who is our BLM in Ongo (we just got to ongo v20) didn't have twilight cloak. We went in separately to get more proc kills in a single day's blunt window. I was the one who saw the cloak drop.

If he had to participate in every run, it would have taken 3x as long to get him the drop.

[Sp1cyryan]

Another example since you mentioned not only TROVE.
Three days ago a friend who is our BLM in Ongo (we just got to ongo v20) didn't have twilight cloak. We went in separately to get more proc kills in a single day's blunt window. I was the one who saw the cloak drop.

If he had to participate in every run, it would have taken 3x as long to get him the drop.

And if he were you then it would have taken them the exact same amount of time since you actually did the content.

It's not that it's inherently a net negative. It is that it has been turned into one by the community in the current age.

[Jdove]

a lot of ppl dislike mercing in general. i.e. enabling people to eat their cake without getting it themselves

Yea but theres so many addons and stuff that make the cake thing way worse, this doesnt really seem that bad least as far as i know people aren't hacking it(I wouldn't be surprised if they were.). How many illegal mythics have people made with all seeing eye, how much afk exp have people got from paying bots?All of these are defended by the playerbase as QoL improvments but w/e. Mercing does kill the game so does multiboxing, it makes people not party up and just want to take advantage of other players.

[Alhanelem]

Another example since you mentioned not only TROVE.
Three days ago a friend who is our BLM in Ongo (we just got to ongo v20) didn't have twilight cloak. We went in separately to get more proc kills in a single day's blunt window. I was the one who saw the cloak drop.

If he had to participate in every run, it would have taken 3x as long to get him the drop.
It's an example of something that's being ruined by misuse, even though some people have good intentions. Mercing is a problem because it lets people get the rewards without doing the work. You might say it's fine to pay gil to skip content, but in many cases it also means paying real money to skip content.

This also has a secondary problem of people not learning from their experiences when they do this, causing people to be geared for content but without really knowing how to use the gear or play the game well.

[Sp1cyryan]

If the community is against the game being a F2P P2W Gatchaesque game then they should support basic measures like this. Blocking players from having avoiding interacting in a game which requires the community to do that. In order to pay RMTs and Mercs to skip the limited content we have. Is a recipe for the game ending in a socially painful and premature death.

[Tarmarkvar]

It's an example of something that's being ruined by misuse, even though some people have good intentions. Mercing is a problem because it lets people get the rewards without doing the work. You might say it's fine to pay gil to skip content, but in many cases it also means paying real money to skip content.

Doing the work? It's a video game. Besides, the "work" is mostly the aggravating step of spending an hour yelling to get people to join up and do something with you.

I get that for a lot of people this kind of pay to win strategy seems stupid, but so what? You can play the game however you want. I wanted the aeonic flute, and Honor March. I paid a mercenary group to take me through the Escha / Reisenjima NMs because I didn't have the kinds of social connections to get it done any other way. Then I started using it for stuff I actually like, such as Ambuscade, Omen, high tier battlefields, and master point levelling. I also paid for a single Tumult Curator win, because I wanted that box ticked off in my list of completed ROE objectives.

[Alhanelem]

Doing the work? It's a video game. Besides, the "work" is mostly the aggravating step of spending an hour yelling to get people to join up and do something with you. I guess pride and sense of accomplishment mean nothing to you?

Yes, it's a video game. But that doesn't mean we don't feel accomplished when we succeed against a challenge placed before us.

And even if we ignore that, there's still the "I have the gear but I don't really know how to play the game because I have no real experience" syndrome.

Of course, it's a worse problem in games which actually sanction paying to skip content with items to level you up or skip content.

[VoiceMemo]

If you wish to merc, or hire a merc that is your own choice. There is nothing wrong with merc. Merc, ie hiring someone is the same as buying something with gil from a bazzar or AH. Those that are against merc, do you make EVERYTHING you use/have? Have leveled all crafts to make the gear that is synthable that you own? I highly doubt it, can't have it both ways, if you are against merc you should not buy anything from AH or bazzar and make it all yourself.

[Alhanelem]

If you wish to merc, or hire a merc that is your own choice. There is nothing wrong with mercIt has a negative influience on the game as a whole. It's not just about you or your customer. So yes, there is something wrong with it. And there is no reason to defend it unless you're participating in it and stand to financially lose.

Mercing rare/ex items that are not possible to be sold on the AH is nothing like selling items on the AH that were specifically intended to be sellable on the AH. The EX flag is there for a reason- it's meant to ensure that the player has to go out and obtain it instead of just buying it.

[Sp1cyryan]

If you wish to merc, or hire a merc that is your own choice. There is nothing wrong with merc. Merc, ie hiring someone is the same as buying something with gil from a bazzar or AH. Those that are against merc, do you make EVERYTHING you use/have? Have leveled all crafts to make the gear that is synthable that you own? I highly doubt it, can't have it both ways, if you are against merc you should not buy anything from AH or bazzar and make it all yourself.

You are mistaken. Buying something from the AH is a function of the game which promotes economic interaction between players. One which facilitates the overall functioning of the game. The sassy conclusion that you jumped to is nonsensical to say the least. It is most easily just summed up as blatantly wrong.

Paying a Merc to skip all content removes players from the pool to participate. Forming a group for any content from Divergence to HTBFs is significantly harder when players are refusing to participate when they can get their rewards anyway. This has further forced dysfunction in the economy where gil is not circulated but to sellers and buyers. This means people who previously crafted items you would want on the AH in niche markets no longer do so. Food items aren't made, as most other items that aren't upgrade materials or "BiS" endgame items. Why bother wasting time making money this way over mercing? Did anyone enjoy CP zones being monopolized by bots before SE made the Crawlers Nest S? It's another result of this culture of mercing and social breakdown in XI.

I could go on, but the point is no. Players mercing absolutely affects others in a negative way. Players are just either unwilling or unable to see it.

[Voidstorm]

So it isn't that you want to lock HTMB's such that only participants can claim the rewards, but you want SE to change their stance on Merc'ing to be considered RMT.

I'm not against that. I've been saying to new players for years that they shouldn't take the merc route but instead start PUG ambu groups to find those who also don't have statics yet, have similar playtimes, and are ready to begin party content.
From ambu PUGs you create a LS. With the LS you make groups for Omen, Dyna, Odyssey, etc.

[Alhanelem]

Frankly the worst part of the prevalence of mercing is like what Spicy said. You're removing people from the player pool of people to do content with. People relying on mercs makes it harder for others to do that content and just makes people depend on the mercs even more.

And really, what's the point in paying someone else to play the game for you? Aren't you supposed to want to play the game?

[VoiceMemo]

Mercing rare/ex items that are not possible to be sold on the AH is nothing like selling items on the AH that were specifically intended to be sellable on the AH. The EX flag is there for a reason- it's meant to ensure that the player has to go out and obtain it instead of just buying it.

So how does REMA compare? The result is rare ex, but the materials to turn in are not all rare ex, ie alex, dynamis currency, hp byald. Do you farm them all yourself? Buying none?

As I stated in my previous post it is freedom of choice that is what I am defending. It is a person's choice to hire merc. Just as it is their choice if they don't. Some of the drop rates are horrible, ie omen bodies. In my years I have done over 400+ runs of omen and only seen maybe 10 bodies at total, so I can understand why some would want to buy these rare ex items from those that are lucky to get them from trove.

Mercing items that say come from drop from killing an enemy is about paying the person/persons for the time/skill/ability to kill the mob. I view this akin to paying someone for a synth item that is beyond your skill to make and or craft.


I've been saying to new players for years that they shouldn't take the merc route but instead start PUG ambu groups to find those who also don't have statics yet, have similar playtimes, and are ready to begin party content.
From ambu PUGs you create a LS. With the LS you make groups for Omen, Dyna, Odyssey, etc.

Nothing is stopping players from doing that, again it is about freedom of choice.

Perhaps the BEST solution that I can offer is that SE needs to really crack down on those that buy gil, and the playerbase must go back to the time when gil buying was ostracized and looked down upon. If those people didn't have the gil, they wouldn't be able to pay for merc and would likely go the party up route.

I've played the game for 15+ years, have more than enough gil to buy anything I want, yet I choose to do events, synth and sign my own items that I could have bought long ago, but again this is MY choice. Over the years I've met players that have joined shells/discords that I'm in that are willing to help each other out, to give drops to others in the group that needs it. It takes time, sometimes years to find people that share the same views. Choice is what everyone has in game and what I am defending.

[Alhanelem]

So how does REMA compare? The result is rare ex, but the materials to turn in are not all rare ex, ie alex, dynamis currency, hp byald. Do you farm them all yourself? Buying none? It was a conscious decision to allow certain items ("currency" materials) to be exchanged freely. The REMAs are all a multi-step process. There are quest elements, combat elements, material elements (the currency), etc. It was designed to be done via combination of efforts. And again, buying items that are intended to be sold on the AH from the AH is not equivalent to mercing items that were not designed to be obtained that way.

Even if you buy all currency items, there is still a lot of work to a REMA that you can only complete by actually doing it- the dynamis quests/coalition assignments/assault requirements, the magian trials, weapon skill usage, etc.

Everything was done the way it was done for a reason, the devs didn't make the currency exchangable for poops and giggles, nor were EX drops from BCNMs flagged as such for giggles either.

[VoiceMemo]

So criteria for legitimate sales/actions is anything that is able to be sold on AH and bazaar only? Why not ask SE to remove gil all together then and make everything have to be done via batter system, items for items. Did SE not setup the economy so that we the players control it? Mercing is just an extension of this, a player controlled market, setting the prices for services and drops.

To me those that complain about merc so much are likely jealous of them that they can't do it. We the players control how the economy works, we don't need SE to come in from on high to change things that we run ourselves. If you don't like people that buy items from others, don't play with them then, call them out on it, etc. But don't take away their freedom to do what they want to do, it is their choice.

[Sp1cyryan]

So criteria for legitimate sales/actions is anything that is able to be sold on AH and bazaar only? Why not ask SE to remove gil all together then and make everything have to be done via batter system, items for items. Did SE not setup the economy so that we the players control it? Mercing is just an extension of this, a player controlled market, setting the prices for services and drops.

To me those that complain about merc so much are likely jealous of them that they can't do it. We the players control how the economy works, we don't need SE to come in from on high to change things that we run ourselves. If you don't like people that buy items from others, don't play with them then, call them out on it, etc. But don't take away their freedom to do what they want to do, it is their choice.

Your post is entirely hyperbolic. This isn't a matter of taking away your "freedom", lol. SE has regularly changed the economy of the game over the years. A black market impacting basic interaction negatively is also not an economy.

Be easier to just admit that you only care about your personal experience and don't care how others are impacted.

[Alhanelem]

So criteria for legitimate sales/actions is anything that is able to be sold on AH and bazaar only? Why not ask SE to remove gil all together then and make everything have to be done via batter system, items for items. Did SE not setup the economy so that we the players control it? Mercing is just an extension of this, a player controlled market, setting the prices for services and drops.

To me those that complain about merc so much are likely jealous of them that they can't do it. We the players control how the economy works, we don't need SE to come in from on high to change things that we run ourselves. If you don't like people that buy items from others, don't play with them then, call them out on it, etc. But don't take away their freedom to do what they want to do, it is their choice.

The short way to respond to this is this isn't Real Life(tm), nor is it 'Murica. This is a fantasy game that was built and designed in a certain way with mechanics that had a designed method of usage. When those mechanics are misused in unintended ways, it is damaging to players that are following the intended mechanics. Beyond this, "What spicy said."

[VoiceMemo]

I don't know what spicy said, he is on my ignore list. SE never intended ninja to be tank, yet we the players have used it to tank for many years. IF SE really cared about the game they would enforce the rules they already have in place, but I'm guessing someone in accounting totaled up how much money they'd lose by banning and SE has chosen to turn a blind eye and make only a few examples out of those breaking TOS.

Ie the gilsellers wouldn't be there if there wasn't gilbuyers. If people didn't buy gil, then likely there would be less merc because of the fact they wouldn't be able to pay the amounts to make merc worth the time.

[Sp1cyryan]

I don't know what spicy said, he is on my ignore list. SE never intended ninja to be tank, yet we the players have used it to tank for many years. IF SE really cared about the game they would enforce the rules they already have in place, but I'm guessing someone in accounting totaled up how much money they'd lose by banning and SE has chosen to turn a blind eye and make only a few examples out of those breaking TOS.

Ie the gilsellers wouldn't be there if there wasn't gilbuyers. If people didn't buy gil, then likely there would be less merc because of the fact they wouldn't be able to pay the amounts to make merc worth the time.

Of course I am on your ignore list. Debate be far too onerous.

Bit distasteful to come into the thread of someone on your ignore list only to post and ignore them. You could have just ignored the whole thread then.

Otherwise the whole framework for your argument continues to be either irrelevant (NIN tank), fallacious (SE doesn't care), or baselessly speculative to no ends (SE just wants mercs 12.95).

You have only served to emotionally derail the thread. This idea for BCNM instances being shared more would better serve for it to pick up traction and one day solve a lot of problems in the community.

[Alhanelem]

I don't know what spicy said, he is on my ignore list.You can still selectively view a blocked user's posts.



Your post is entirely hyperbolic. This isn't a matter of taking away your "freedom", lol. SE has regularly changed the economy of the game over the years. A black market impacting basic interaction negatively is also not an economy.

Be easier to just admit that you only care about your personal experience and don't care how others are impacted.

It's a bit funny how i've ended up coming out swinging recently for someone who i've historically struggled to get along with lol

[VoiceMemo]

selectively viewing a post from someone you set to ignore defeats the purpose of the ignore list.

[Alhanelem]

selectively viewing a post from someone you set to ignore defeats the purpose of the ignore list.
No it doesn't. Sometimes it may be necessary when the context of a conversation is too obscured by others interacting with that person on a topic you're otherwise interested in. It still serves as a flag that says "someone I don't like or whom i've regarded as trolling/not constructive/whatever" is participating in this thread. It can be a good thing to be able to weigh in a given circumstance how likely it is to be worth reading that post in spite of the person who made it.

[leia]

Cloud from FFVII was a Merc and was paid for he's work.

Please understand the lore of the game you are playing.

[Velner]

Support 100%. I love this idea.

[Pixela]

I think merc work is fine on XI, however this isn't merc work. Merc work is paying someone to do something specific, such as kill an nm.

This is selling really rare items you get from trove and that anyone can join and lot at the point of dropping, and it's really stupid game design. The main issue is it removes long term goals players have, which is counter productive because it's so easy.

Why should I work on getting an Ashera harness when I can just sit in town and wait for someone selling it, or why should I work on my own AMAN army?

Nobody in Trove should be allowed to lot if they are outside the BCNM, it's really really stupid as it is.

Either add a debuff that is applied when you open the final chest (that lets you lot) or add a system that does not allow you to invite anyone past that point (party is locked).

[VoiceMemo]

Why should I work on getting an Ashera harness when I can just sit in town and wait for someone selling it, or why should I work on my own AMAN army?

Having done some 400+ omen runs and only seen ashera harness 2x, granted yes not all runs were Gin runs only. The drop rate is so low that it could be YEARS to see a drop since you are time gated by 1 tag every 20 real hours. Playing the game is good and all but YEARS? plus you have to compete with the others that you go along with to win the lot.

[Pixela]

Having done some 400+ omen runs and only seen ashera harness 2x, granted yes not all runs were Gin runs only. The drop rate is so low that it could be YEARS to see a drop since you are time gated by 1 tag every 20 real hours. Playing the game is good and all but YEARS? plus you have to compete with the others that you go along with to win the lot.

One extreme to the other.

[Tarmarkvar]

I guess pride and sense of accomplishment mean nothing to you?

Yes, it's a video game. But that doesn't mean we don't feel accomplished when we succeed against a challenge placed before us.

And even if we ignore that, there's still the "I have the gear but I don't really know how to play the game because I have no real experience" syndrome.

Of course, it's a worse problem in games which actually sanction paying to skip content with items to level you up or skip content.

Of course it does. I have a lot that I've built up over the course of 18 years. But that doesn't give me or you the right to dictate that everyone has the same values. I mean, people say the same thing about instant cake mixes.... that it's lazy to use an instant cake mix when you can just measure and mix the flour, sugar, eggs, etc and bake from scratch. Do it your way, but anybody else's way doesn't stop you from doing it your way.

[Sp1cyryan]

One extreme to the other.

Why would they even pad the tally by saying 400+ runs when they weren't even all against that NM.

I farmed my Ashera, and Dagon with friends/PUGs and saw three other bodies drop in less than 400 runs. It's rare, but it's unreasonable to assert the only alternative is to pay a merc for it in AMAN. Especially when the bodies have very limited use.

Also anyone, please don't mistake this for an "I did it so you have to." This is about the overall health of the community. I am happy to have gotten regal gauntlets and cuffs with my orbs or my LS mates. That still means going with them, being in party for 5 minutes, and being done. No reason players can't do the event instead of paying mercs to buy it.

[Kalimairo]

What's wrong with people selling AMAN Trove drops for gil?

its just like Botting for Exemplary it feeds the botts

[Sp1cyryan]

its just like Botting for Exemplary it feeds the botts

Mhm, and people either ignore or don't understand how these aren't isolated matters, but fit into an interconnected picture.

[Pixela]

What's wrong with people selling AMAN Trove drops for gil?

It allows people to finish their goals too fast, there isn't anything wrong with Trove having these drops but being able to sit in town and wait for them to drop to 100% get it is dumb. All they need to do is lock the party once the chest has been opened.

>obtain 100 m gil
>sit in town
>wait for groups to spam trove till the item drops
>wait for them to shout
>join group
>obtain rarest item in game

[Pixela]

The reason Trove is ok, in my mind is it gives casual players that can't do the content an avenue to potentially get the item themselves. This is great.

The problem comes when hardcore players decide it is no longer worth doing the content because they can just buy it from a shout seller in a short amount of time, and this is exactly where we are now. This needs to be fixed ASAP (although honestly massive damage has already been done), lock the party upon opening the chest next patch. Do it developers.

The problem is, once you have all the BiS items (even if it's just some cosmetic wings for your back that you always wanted) you still want to play but you lose the will to play. All the carrots are gone and carrots are a foundational aspect of why mmorpg players keep playing.

Trove is decimating the long-term hardcore players will to play, they even added Shinryu drops to it lol

Lock the party upon opening the final chest, even if the only way you can do it is by adding invisible dummy trusts to the party players can't dismiss.

[Sp1cyryan]

Lock the party upon opening the final chest, even if the only way you can do it is by adding invisible dummy trusts to the party players can't dismiss.

Doesn't have to be that complicated. Just extend instance status like is done with campaign battle unions. Players can't join after it's over to lot.

[KingOfVanadiel]

square enix i want this person banned in the video game as he do is insult and talk trash to everyone in yell the very opposite of how you should be in a mmorpg killing the game and i reported him to game masters many time and they just throw it out. and so much other stuff. is this a game master personal account or something? they shouldn't be above the law. sorry not trying to be salty ryan, but im not coming back to read if you reply to all the insults i see you done to people in the game i only expect more. make sure he can't come back at all keep making so many customers leave this game and killing the game. and so many others too doing this. could be the same person using alts or different accounts. especially when someone blacklist them

[Sp1cyryan]

square enix i want this person banned in the video game as he do is insult and talk trash to everyone in yell the very opposite of how you should be in a mmorpg killing the game and i reported him to game masters many time and they just throw it out. and so much other stuff. is this a game master personal account or something? they shouldn't be above the law. sorry not trying to be salty ryan, but im not coming back to read if you reply to all the insults i see you done to people in the game i only expect more. make sure he can't come back at all keep making so many customers leave this game and killing the game. and so many others too doing this. could be the same person using alts or different accounts. especially when someone blacklist them

Please stick to the topic.

[Alhanelem]

Please stick to the topic.That account is just a troll, have a look at the rest of their posts. lol

[Sp1cyryan]

That account is just a troll, have a look at the rest of their posts. lol

The real troll is the lack of moderation.

[KingOfVanadiel]

That account is just a troll, have a look at the rest of their posts. lol
I know you better stop stalking on me

[KingOfVanadiel]

Please stick to the topic.

I stuck to the topic. I saw spicy Ryan therefore I wrote. Where did I go wrong ? Not my fault this website so confusing.

[Sp1cyryan]

I stuck to the topic. I saw spicy Ryan therefore I wrote. Where did I go wrong ? Not my fault this website so confusing.

No. Enough of this silliness.