Fixing Nuke/BP Wall + Adding WS Wall

[Cypan]

I feel as though the nuke wall and BP wall is an issue of abusing a specific advantage and stacking it. I would feel very comfortable if there was a nuke wall and bloodpact wall only if the sources were coming from different players of the same job.

For example, 3 blm death bursting would receive a penalty on 2/3 blm, but a geo, a sch, and a blm all bursting would receive no penalty. This would open up using other jobs in ways originally intended and go with the flow of odyssea where multiple jobs are required. Geo nuking and sch nuking would become relevant again. A single smn using apogee or conduit would be useful again.

It would make each job feel more of their own and promote better combinations and less abusing an advantage.

I would also love to see a similar this taken towards weaponskills. If one person is spamming savage blade there's no penalty. If the entire party is spamming savage blade then a weaponskill wall is implemented to deter mindless savage blade spamming and have players consider using more then one weaponskill.

[Alhanelem]

This would certainly be preferable to the way things are now.

Someone did ask a balancing question likely relating to this on the AMA, but it was too vague and probably was more referncing things like the great BST nerf.

[Sp1cyryan]

I support keeping the Nuke wall. I also support adding the mechanic from divergence towards rapid WS/BP spam towards all NMs.

[Alhanelem]

I support keeping the Nuke wall. I also support adding the mechanic from divergence towards rapid WS/BP spam towards all NMs.Yeah no thanks. May as well just delete all mages from the game.

[Sp1cyryan]

Yeah no thanks. May as well just delete all mages from the game.

I enjoy playing BLM. I publicly talk about it just about every week or so. The adjustments BLM could use the most do not revolve around the nuke wall. It is simply something parroted at this point.

[Alhanelem]

I enjoy playing BLM. I publicly talk about it just about every week or so. The adjustments BLM could use the most do not revolve around the nuke wall. It is simply something parroted at this point.This is an issue for multiple jobs, it is not merely "parroting." Probably more of an issue for SMN, where it's an issue just with oneself, as opposed to BLM where it's only really a big issue if you try to throw BLMs at something.

[Sp1cyryan]

This is an issue for multiple jobs, it is not merely "parroting." Probably more of an issue for SMN, where it's an issue just with oneself, as opposed to BLM where it's only really a big issue if you try to throw BLMs at something.

Content no longer revolves around an alliance of BLMs, and it will not revolve around an alliance going forward. The nuke wall does not need to be addressed. Other functions of magical damage however should be addressed.

[Alhanelem]

Content no longer revolves around an alliance of BLMs,I didn't say it did. That's not even relevant to the point. People sh ould be able to use whatever strategies they want, however, provide they don't trivialize all content. In cases where this does happen, the proper method of addressing such an issue is not to create artificial job - (or role) specific restrictions, but to address the unnderlying cause instead. Like with Summoner, the appropriate response to SMN beating various contents with 1-hour BP spam should not be to nerf the damage of repeat blood pacts, but to tweak the ability to make the mechanics less abuseable.

We've already been discussing that on the SMN forum. But BLM has its unfair role-specific punishments as well, and these can also be addressed mechanically instead of with special restrictions as well.

Content not "revolving around" a particular cheesy tactic doesn't mean there isn't an issue. And if you feel there isn't a problem with content "revolving around" mass BLM, then why does SE feel the need to artificially nerf nuke damage?

[Sp1cyryan]

Because, once again, the "nuke wall" is not the real issue BLMs contend with. When was the last time you played the job and how did you play it or better said how do you generally use it?

[Alhanelem]

Because, once again, the "nuke wall" is not the real issue BLMs contend with. When was the last time you played the job and how did you play it or better said how do you generally use it?
"Not the real issue" doesn't mean it's not in any way harmful. Because it is and it should be revisited. And again, it's not just about BLM.

[Sp1cyryan]

"Not the real issue" doesn't mean it's not in any way harmful. Because it is and it should be revisited. And again, it's not just about BLM.

BLM is the most important consideration in this. The rest don't exist for the sake of this argument.

[Alhanelem]

BLM is the most important consideration in this. The rest don't exist for the sake of this argument.This issue also refers to the BP wall which is basically the same thing. And technically, the nuke wall affects anyone that can cast elemental magic. The main issue with the BP wall is it was aimed at limiting the power of Astral Conduit in content we would call "relevant." The problem is it's basically a giant sledgehammer that hits all kinds of other things as well, even the more basic Apogee, or multiple summoners just using their abilities in a normal fashion.

Now yes, I understand you're likely on the high end of serious players and would probably never do anything that isn't perfectly optimal in the first place. But not all of us are optimal, and artificial limitations like this discourage exploration and experimentation, which is exactly how we find and discover optimal strategies for content. And just because you wouldn't do something doesn't mean other people don't try it, not even knowing about this issue.

[Sp1cyryan]

This issue also refers to the BP wall which is basically the same thing. And technically, the nuke wall affects anyone that can cast elemental magic. The main issue with the BP wall is it was aimed at limiting the power of Astral Conduit in content we would call "relevant." The problem is it's basically a giant sledgehammer that hits all kinds of other things as well, even the more basic Apogee, or multiple summoners just using their abilities in a normal fashion.

Why are you conflating the nuking wall with a "BP Wall"? As the successive elemental magic penalty, or "nuke wall", is a real thing, and the "BP wall" is not. That is just needlessly confusing. Further, please provide an example of a pertinent situation a SMN is hindered by this in. As I don't want to walk you into one.


Now yes, I understand you're likely on the high end of serious players and would probably never do anything that isn't perfectly optimal in the first place. But not all of us are optimal, and artificial limitations like this discourage exploration and experimentation, which is exactly how we find and discover optimal strategies for content. And just because you wouldn't do something doesn't mean other people don't try it, not even knowing about this issue.

Is this lowbrow condescending cordiality why people don't enjoy engaging with you?

[Alhanelem]

Why are you conflating the nuking wall with a "BP Wall"? As the successive elemental magic penalty, or "nuke wall", is a real thing, and the "BP wall" is not.It's not confusing at all, they are both artifical nerfs to specific jobs/roles to limit the power of certain actions/behaviors, i.e. spamming summoners, or black mages, or whatever else. They both artifically alter the normal behavior of BPs and nuking respectively to dramatically alter damage dealt in whatever conditions SE deems inappropriate.



Is this lowbrow condescending cordiality why people don't enjoy engaging with you? Well, I certainly don't expect elitists to enjoy engaging with me, because I dislike elitism. But this was specifically about you, it isn't routine behavior. I get this impression out of you that you feel like everyone should listen to you just because you've made lots of pages on a wiki or done this or that thing in the game. I'm certainly open, however, to hearing why I shouldn't have this impression of you.

I often try unconventional strategies and tend to like the least popular jobs the most. I was all over PUP when it came out despite everyone insisting how bad it was. I played summoner as a Galka despite everyone saying how bad that was. I made a Claustrum and melee build and have had tons of fun doing all kinds of content with it despite everyone hating on me for it. It is because I have routinely gotten so much crap from the elite in a game that allows so much freedom to choose, that I have historically had much resentment for those most elite players, and also BG in particular.

I also resent you for your equally "lowbrow" retort towards me implying people in general don't like engaging with me, which simply isn't true, particularly outside of this forum. There are a handful of people here I don't get along with, and plenty of others with which I do. I'd be happy to reconcile - I don't purposely burn bridges - if you believe my impression of you is inaccurate. I'm really not unreasonable.

Conversely...

The reality is I'm largely picked on because I have a high post count and sometimes have unpopular opinions. I can certainly understand the latter, the former has never made sense to me. I've never claimed that my posts should have more meaning or are better or anything else because of how many times I've posted, so I don't understand why that statistic has any meaning to anyone.

In the past I've also been accused of being a debbie downer and disagreeing with every suggestion just for the sake of it, despite the fact that it both isn't really true in the first place, and how in recent days, it certainly seems like a lot of the community has a more negative outlook on things than I do.

this "lowbrow condescending cordiality" is not a pattern of behavior, I can assure you.



Further, please provide an example of a pertinent situation a SMN is hindered by this in. As I don't want to walk you into one.I mean, isn't this common knowledge? Didn't you write a significant portion of BG Wiki? Why do you need me to tell you? I apologize in advance if this sounds "condecending" or something, but I legitimately don't understand. And what's your definition of a "pertinent situation" in this context?

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/59505-Can-we-please-get-a-replacement-for-Astral-Conduit

Can we please get a replacement for Astral Conduit?

I know more than a few career summoners are going to say "no, my Astral Conduit, I need it to be good", and I get it. It's a really strong job ability. Too strong. So much so that measures are being taken to reduce its effectiveness, which instead reduce the effectiveness of the entire job. That has to stop.

There's already content where you can't use Apogee, have to worry about your blood pact delay, and can't take a second summoner in no matter how useful it would be, because that's the quick fix for making Astral Conduit less overpowered.Certain contents impose special restrictions on the same BP being used multiple times on a target within a certain amount of time, which is aimed at limiting Astral Conduit in those contents, but can easily affect the job outside of AC as well.

Maybe I'm fundamentally understanding something here, but the nuke wall as far I understand was implemented for the same basic reason of limiting a specific tactic from caster jobs which also had unintended consequences. And it was the OP of this thread who lumped the BP wall and nuke wall together into the same topic, but you only seem to be adressing me.

[Catmato]

it isn't routine behavior

lol

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[Sp1cyryan]

lol

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Lol, it absolutely is so routine! It is absolutely outstanding.

The entire response is so removed from how things are that there can't possibly be a healthy discussion with it. Blaming a post count as a source of friction is utterly flabbergasting.

[Alhanelem]

Lol, it absolutely is so routine! It is absolutely outstanding.

The entire response is so removed from how things are that there can't possibly be a healthy discussion with it.
I'm sorry the two of you feel that way, but it's simply not true.

There absolutely can be healthy discussions if you reply in a respectful manner. You've been aggressive in replying to me from the beginning. What do you really expect me to say? This feels more like an excuse not to address legitimate statements than an honest reply.

I'm being entirely honest with you, if you are honest with me, the discussion can absolutely be healthy. But it seems like whenever I ask you the hard questions, you cop out with "this can't be a healthy discussion."



Blaming a post count as a source of friction is utterly flabbergastingIt has actually been cited by others. There have been numerous complaints just about the fact that I post a lot. It makes no sense to me but it's a fact and you can find people saying things to this effect if you look.

I can spend hours digging through this forum to find all kinds of examples of positive contributions, being friendly to others, etc. etc. etc. You are making accusations to the contrary, If I really have to, I'll go to length to prove that you're not correct in your opinion. But I really shouldn't have to do that.

[Voidstorm]

A Melee party can have the Tank, DDs, Supports, & Healer all smacking away w/ no penalty to speak of.
A mage party can have one mage nuke away w/o penalty. Once you bring any 2nd mage into the equation, you're penalized.
A SMN party can't even have the one SMN apogee w/o penalty.

Example of a mage party: RUN NIN BLM RDM SCH GEO. Every member can magic burst, yet only one is allowed to.

[Sp1cyryan]

A Melee party can have the Tank, DDs, Supports, & Healer all smacking away w/ no penalty to speak of.
A mage party can have one mage nuke away w/o penalty. Once you bring any 2nd mage into the equation, you're penalized.
A SMN party can't even have the one SMN apogee w/o penalty.

Example of a mage party: RUN NIN BLM RDM SCH GEO. Every member can magic burst, yet only one is allowed to.

Except NIN can nuke with the mages without nerfing their damage. The RDM should also be more focused on SCing with that NIN as well. Rather than MBing as it be a subpar choice to burst. The NIN can abuse hybrids and/or create lvl4 SCs in this case.

Other good jobs to replace the NIN or SCH with include BST, WAR, or SAM. Magical WS like Cloudsplitter and Primal Rend do great damage in these setups. A BLM should have TP to participate in a step of the SC from OA across the subsequent steps they burst. For instance Tachi: Jinpu to Cataclysm (also great damage in this setup) or Blade: Ei closes Gravitation.

So the issue IMO is more that players sit back and expect a SCH to just make SCs while they all burst at the same time. Instead of taking advantage of the tools available players try to make MBing into the magical equivalent of Naegling SB spam.

While a situation like Ongo V20 with it's AoE damage, stun, para, and dispels isn't conducive to such a strategy. Players still don't engage in strategy even when it is viable or would destroy an NM. You can destroy divergence mobs this way for example. Magical WS don't pull much in the way of hate so you don't have to worry about pulling an orc's attention off the tank and getting countered to death.

This is also a viable way to take advantage NIN's subtle blow or a build in general for something somewhat annoying like Halphas. SB also applies to magical damage, and Monk's roll alone will cap your SB I as a secondary roll. Since other secondary rolls tend to be mediocre for magic use.

At any rate, there are generally multiple elements viable to burst in a SC. Which again excludes exceptions like Ongo, but even there the wall is only a somewhat minor inconvenience for the SCH instead of an actual problem that should be patched out of existence. So, if darkness is usedbthen the BLM with Comet and Death shouldn't really be getting in the way of the SCH with ice. Three BLMs can nuke water, ice, and dark in Divergence on the NMs. Even then stacking -ja potency is potentially valuable. Yes, I know comet overwrites other -jas, but there is a lot of generalization required for this post.

If anything I would like to see the cumulative elemental penalty for only -ja magic reduced or removed. There is only one, it is weaker than T6s, and the recast isn't great.

TL;DR: The nuke wall is there to prevent players from abusing smooth brain strategy. It was first created to stop 18 BLMs instant ending content with a time nuke. It doesn't matter if that is less relevant today as the desired result is still. I'd rather see the nuke wall keep players from abusing a send command on all their mules from the safety of the backline or just being thoughtless in general. Rather the wall encourages more interaction and better players than otherwise. It also encourages the use of a RUN. BLM as a job needs other adjustments which are not related to the wall at all. Keep the penalty in place.

[Alhanelem]

Except NIN can nuke with the mages without nerfing their damage. The RDM should also be more focused on SCing with that NIN as well. Rather than MBing as it be a subpar choice to burst. The NIN can abuse hybrids and/or create lvl4 SCs in this case.I remind you that not everyone is concerned with, knows, or cares what is optimal. Even if something isn't optimal, it should work the way the player expects it to work. Being "sub-optimal" isn't an excuse for something to have special nerfs associated with it, and in fact it's even more of a reason to change it.

Yes, I know my SCs+bursts with myself playing SMN Mlv14/SAM51 solo with Claustrum aren't optimal. I really, really don't care what the top end of the community considers optimal (I'm going to min max Gate of Tartarus and there's nothing you can do about it). But I'm still being indirectly harmed by a custom, special nerf designed to thwart a totally different tactic. That's the point here- special rules that exist to discourage one strategy the devs don't personally like really shouldn't be a thing. And there are more of those that aren't really related to these "walls". (If anything, I'm probably doing it *because* the community doesn't consider it optimal)

BST didn't need command range reduced to "physical contact with the pet"- there's a million other ways they could have addressed that. BLM doesn't need a special restriction like this, and neither does SMN. Both can have their cheese tactics addressed without harming the normal functions of the job as used by someone not doing those tactics.

[Jdove]

SE isn't ever going to get rid of any damage walls or nerfs, once they implement these things they are forever embedded in the code permanently.

[Alhanelem]

SE isn't ever going to get rid of any damage walls or nerfs, once they implement these things they are forever embedded in the code permanently.They have reverted balance changes in the past.

[Sp1cyryan]

They have reverted balance changes in the past.

It's safer to say that SE cant revert this. They don't take snapshots, and even if they did it wouldn't matter due to how long ago it was.

It is becoming increasingly evident that the staff remaining are unable to work with, fix, or even understand the layers of code they are plastering over. Much of it has become evident as guesswork they avoid directly ever changing. I recall something to the effect of not even being able to remove this because of those factors and being intertwined into the game at this point, but obviously I don't have the source at hand.

So, the nuke wall isn't going anywhere. Nor, as I argued, do I think it should be removed anyway.

[Voidstorm]

Hm, I still doubt NIN can MB alongside mages w/o those MB's adding to the wall, but I haven't actually done a MB strat w/ a NIN in party for a very long time since SE's lazy fuck-up of a fix to BLM alliances.

I don't care what SE's thoughts on doing those things are. It's their choice how they react to our complaints. I'm just complaining how their fix broke more things than it fixed.
Since multiple of the same job cannot even be used in sheol Gaol, both nerfs should be removed from that zone entirely. Or is that also too much for them?

[Alhanelem]

It is becoming increasingly evident that the staff remaining are unable to work with, fix, or even understand the layers of code they are plastering over. Much of it has become evident as guesswork they avoid directly ever changing. I recall something to the effect of not even being able to remove this because of those factors and being intertwined into the game at this point, but obviously I don't have the source at hand.

You're not entirely wrong, I'm just refuting the argument that they never reverse past balance changes or otherwise unnerf, because that has in fact happened before

But as before, I don't feel that these "walls" serve any positive influence to gameplay. You can argue that they're meaningless anyway, as it's not "optimal" behavior, and, maybe you're right, but that isn't a reason for them to exist- at best it's only a reason not to go to the effort of changing it. The nuke and BP walls benefit nobody and harm some people, even if you want to argue those people are being suboptimal.