FF11 "Classic Fresh" - WoW is rebooting classic! How would you launch XI Classic?

[Leeto]

So WoW Classic is currently doing a fresh start classic reboot with easier levelling, harder raid difficulty and QoL changes that are completely different to how they did "Classic" the first time around...

Would you launch the official FF11 classic server with QoL changes?

I would like to see everything up to Treasures of Aht Urhgan and implement Mythic weapons with it as a Quality of Life change! However I would not be against adding Wings of the Goddess or the add-ons, but the cut-off date for updates would have to be the March 23rd, 2010 update just like Wings.

Sky, Sea, AF2, Limbus, Salvage, Einherjar, Nyzul... When endgame meant alliances and group content. When every piece of 75 gear was a long-term goal. Everything before that date is the golden 75 era!

[Sfchakan]

Just what we need, a fourth or fifth thread about this this week.

For something they've repeatedly said "lol no" to.

[Alt0167]

I wouldn't

[Lortheron]

So WoW Classic is currently doing a fresh start classic reboot with easier levelling, harder raid difficulty and QoL changes that are completely different to how they did "Classic" the first time around...

Would you launch the official FF11 classic server with QoL changes?

I would like to see everything up to Treasures of Aht Urhgan and implement Mythic weapons with it as a Quality of Life change! However I would not be against adding Wings of the Goddess or the add-ons, but the cut-off date for updates would have to be the March 23rd, 2010 update just like Wings.

Sky, Sea, AF2, Limbus, Salvage, Einherjar, Nyzul... When endgame meant alliances and group content. When every piece of 75 gear was a long-term goal. Everything before that date is the golden 75 era!

Yes, please.

People don't get that when we say "Classic server", this is what we mean (more or less, give or take...):

Keep some tele books, not all, make airships available every 2m and trips faster. Remove hability to teleport too far away, make airships and boats free or 50gil and teleportartion ~500gil.

Keep standard faster leveling we have now, remove Raphsodies of Vana Diel key items that make it ridiculously fast and break the game.
Remove personal mounts, but add more chocobo stables everywhere, make chocobos always available to sumon back as long as you're still in time, so one can mount and dismount freely while the timer lasts.
Remove Abyssea content but keep max level at 99 anyways.

Release with some expansions only (Rise of Zilart and Chains of Promathia), add new things slowly with time.
Limit trustes to two per person, three per party, make people want to group up trough low~mid level content.

Apply hard, level sync to all dungeons and notorious monster fights, as well as missions, challenging content and important story mission should be hard and offer somewhat of a challenge no matter the level one is doing it (really boring and dumb to steamroll trough fights supposed to be epic challenges).
A good middleground with all the feeling and challenge of the classic but not as spartan, and still very accessible and much faster to level without much grind (just some), while still requiring groups and valuing content of all levels (not just endgame).

Some of the above could and should also be applied to the current retail server actually.

[Inches]

Clickbait? Trolling? Both?

Ah yes, how wonderful it was to start a party in Cape Terrigan and zone right after into Valley of Sorrows...going for 72 hours because you didn't want to lose the xp camp and that next level was (at least) a couple of days' worth experience away.

Reading about the incredibly long Absolute Virtue fights were people were actually vomiting due to overplaying.

When so much time had passed between missions that any chance of you following the plot was gone with the last five levels you had to gain before you even had a chance at continuing the story.

When you couldn't complete quests in: Garlaige Citadel, past the three mage gate, Eldieme Necropolis, or the Quicksand Caves because... for one reason or another you just could not get past a certain door.

When some classes (like DRKs) hung around Jeuno in a perpetual LFG Exclamation Point next to their head because...parties just didn't want them.

Finding a party as a DD, and suddenly the WHM has to leave 10 minutes after you hauled ass to Crawler's Nest, because they're human and have been in a party for the last 10 hours. Desperately performing a /sea all whm and trying to snipe whatever healer isn't /anon or ask them if they want to party, before anybody else did.

Ah, yes. The good old days. They were alright back then.

But they can stay there.

[Lortheron]

Clickbait? Trolling? Both?

Ah yes, how wonderful it was to start a party in Cape Terrigan and zone right after into Valley of Sorrows...going for 72 hours because you didn't want to lose the xp camp and that next level was (at least) a couple of days' worth experience away.

Reading about the incredibly long Absolute Virtue fights were people were actually vomiting due to overplaying.

When so much time had passed between missions that any chance of you following the plot was gone with the last five levels you had to gain before you even had a chance at continuing the story.

When you couldn't complete quests in: Garlaige Citadel, past the three mage gate, Eldieme Necropolis, or the Quicksand Caves because... for one reason or another you just could not get past a certain door.

When some classes (like DRKs) hung around Jeuno in a perpetual LFG Exclamation Point next to their head because...parties just didn't want them.

Finding a party as a DD, and suddenly the WHM has to leave 10 minutes after you hauled ass to Crawler's Nest, because they're human and have been in a party for the last 10 hours. Desperately performing a /sea all whm and trying to snipe whatever healer isn't /anon or ask them if they want to party, before anybody else did.

Ah, yes. The good old days. They were alright back then.

But they can stay there.

As I said in my post before yours: keep some conviniences here and there but strugle to keep the feeling of the original and value the years of content up until 75~99. Keep current faster leveling peace (already ~5x faster than original classic without any of those silly Raphsodies of Vana Diel experience boosting Key Items that break the game), for example, and so on. A "not so classic server" is what is needed, and some tender love and cars, for this game. Sadly the current situation is an absurd extreme aking to private server experiences of old (where people would make private servers of any MMO, including WoW, where one could get max level in days. In FFXI currently a new player can reach max level in hours).

Overall some conveniencies here and there and faster leveling is fine. Welcomed. But reaching max level within a few hours is not fun at all on any RPG, as is steamrolling trough content and fights that are supposed to be epic and challenging... it's simply silly and boring and doesn't value the content at all.

At the very least, reaching level 75 should take some more time than it currently takes for a player to reach top level in FFXIV, which is around two months, and reaching level 99 from there should take at least half as much.

We need a middleground between current retail state (which is easy mode with Abyssea and Raphsodies of Vana Diel, a steamrolling and speedruning dream skiping trough 90% of original beautiful stories and content, which is just sad) and classic (which was just too spartan and archaic for today). It's not that hard to do, really.

[Alt0167]

You clearly don't understand where we are in the life cycle of this game and community. I hope you find a private server to accommodate your fantasies, because they'll never be realised on retail. The game has moved on. No going back. Literally Never. Emphasis on the literally never part.

[Lortheron]

You clearly don't understand where we are in the life cycle of this game and community. I hope you find a private server to accommodate your fantasies, because they'll never be realised on retail. The game has moved on. No going back. Literally Never. Emphasis on the literally never part.

There clearly is a market big enough for the old school MMO experience. Everquest 1 releases new time locked servers periodically with less paying players than FFXI and Daybreak still makes good money. The classic MMO is a totally different game genere than the modern one, can't compare, and a different market too. Currently no one is exploring the classic MMO but there are paying costumers longing for a quality game albeit modernized and not as spartan as some of the original experiences (while still being far away from the modern MMO FFXIV like model).

The classic MMO community is scattered all around between private servers and many different games and needs someone to unite them. Like many other classic game styles that seen a comeback lately (last one was shooters in general, of many different sub styles. Because modern FPS games just terrible), the classic MMO needs a comeback as well.

FFXI can be that one game to gather and unite all players orphaned from classic MMOs, if given some tender love and care.

[Lortheron]

The thing is, FFXIV is really NOTHING quite like FFXI, nothing at all. Zero similarities in the experience for the player.

I know many people that hate the way FFXIV took but still play it because they feel like there is nowhere else to go. Many people would LOVE FFXI but the interface and graphics are a HUGE problem, even the installation and account creation are barriers. I do believe a remaster of any kind of FFXI would drawn many frustrated players from FFXIV and they would really prefer the FFXI experience a lot more.

Most people don't even know how much FFXI is all they are looking for in an MMO but keep away from it because of how much of a huge starting barrier it got and how old it's graphics and interface look.

[Pixela]

Modernization does not always just mean positives, it can also bring negatives.

Sometimes it's better to just be happy you still have the game and it's being updated.

[Leeto]

Clickbait? Trolling? Both?

Ah yes, how wonderful it was to start a party in Cape Terrigan and zone right after into Valley of Sorrows...

Well, Cape Terrigan levelling with the Page 1 FoV book in Wings era is still a good alternative to Bhaflau Thickets!

Wings of the Goddess introduced quality of life systems and is still considered classic!

Unlike the changes Lortheron is asking for, many players only wish for SQEX to recreate a 75 cap server before Abyssea at minimum.

75 Era Vana'diel recreated and preserved is the idea behind "FF11 Classic." Properly tuning content like AV & PW would be QoL.

After XIV's major success recently and seeing WoW Classic being rebooted for 2022 with new QoL changes...? What if...?

[Lortheron]

Well, Cape Terrigan levelling with the Page 1 FoV book in Wings era is still a good alternative to Bhaflau Thickets!

Wings of the Goddess introduced quality of life systems and is still considered classic!

Unlike the changes Lortheron is asking for, many players only wish for SQEX to recreate a 75 cap server before Abyssea at minimum.

75 Era Vana'diel recreated and preserved is the idea behind "FF11 Classic." Properly tuning content like AV & PW would be QoL.

After XIV's major success recently and seeing WoW Classic being rebooted for 2022 with new QoL changes...? What if...?

That would work too.

WoG + a bit faster leveling (than the original classic, that is) but WITHOUT Raphsodies of Vana Diel and Abyssea.

I'd get behind it.

[Lortheron]

Modernization does not always just mean positives, it can also bring negatives.

Sometimes it's better to just be happy you still have the game and it's being updated.


There are many ways to modernize a game a bit respecting and preserving the original idea and feeling. Involving the original creators is one way to try and guarantee such result somewhat.

But yes, a modernization like Warcraft Reforged is something terrible. Usually involving third party companies leads to bad results.

To me, Everquest 1 does it right.

In the singleplayer spectrum, from Square Enix: FFXII Zodiac Age PC is a great remaster modernized example. FFVIII remastered is terrible.

[Alhanelem]

So WoW Classic is currently doing a fresh start classic reboot with easier levelling, harder raid difficulty and QoL changes that are completely different to how they did "Classic" the first time around...

Would you launch the official FF11 classic server with QoL changes?

I would like to see everything up to Treasures of Aht Urhgan and implement Mythic weapons with it as a Quality of Life change! However I would not be against adding Wings of the Goddess or the add-ons, but the cut-off date for updates would have to be the March 23rd, 2010 update just like Wings.

Sky, Sea, AF2, Limbus, Salvage, Einherjar, Nyzul... When endgame meant alliances and group content. When every piece of 75 gear was a long-term goal. Everything before that date is the golden 75 era!
What works for WoW isn't guaranteed to work for other games. See the other "classic server" topic we just had and all the ones before that. SE has already said "Not happening."

The WoW team has the resources and community size to launch a whole bunch of versions of the same game. the FFXI team does not. The community isn't big enough for that either.

That said, I think they would stand to gain from promoting the game to FFXIV players, if they did it right by offering a combined subscription promotion and making improvements to the UI and stuff to be easier for people used to modern MMOs. The unfortunate reality is they did have such a UI in development at one point (which a few of us got to try a VERY early version of on the test server back when we had one), but it was sadly scrapped.

[Lortheron]

What works for WoW isn't guaranteed to work for other games. See the other "classic server" topic we just had and all the ones before that. SE has already said "Not happening."

The WoW team has the resources and community size to launch a whole bunch of versions of the same game. the FFXI team does not. The community isn't big enough for that either.

That said, I think they would stand to gain from promoting the game to FFXIV players, if they did it right by offering a combined subscription promotion and making improvements to the UI and stuff to be easier for people used to modern MMOs. The unfortunate reality is they did have such a UI in development at one point (which a few of us got to try a VERY early version of on the test server back when we had one), but it was sadly scrapped.

Square Enix has only to gain from promoting both games together, I agree. Offering discounts to FFXIV players and vice versa is something I support as well.

Thing is... many WoW Classic players and FFXIV players are longing for a game just like FFXI in every single way but they just don't know, can't know, FFXI is that game. That is because of the huge barrier the graphics and specially whole interface and playonline form together.

If FFXI got even a fifth the recourses and attention from Square Enix, FFXIV gets, it would be something much bigger, guaranteed.

No other company treats active MMOs this bad. Now I know it could be worse and they could bring the game down and simply stop supporting it all together, sure (in which case everyone would migrate to private servers and stop giving them money). But from the companies with have kept any old school MMO alive, Square Enix had to be worst, that is ever since 2016... really.

Runnescape and Everquest 1 fare much better in terms of updates and development from their respective current developers.

FFXI has a paid monthly subscription and one whole full crowded server plus two almost full servers. Square Enix really has no excuse to treat it THIS BAD, trully. It's shameful the way they've been ignoring the game since 2016, really, a lucrative game at that.

You can't just keep game servers alive for the sake of it and wait for the players to literally die. Some actual support and publicity is expected from any game company that's keeping any MMORPG alive, and Square Enix is simply doing nothing, zero, for FFXI.

[Immortal]

The thing is, FFXIV is really NOTHING quite like FFXI, nothing at all. Zero similarities in the experience for the player.

I know many people that hate the way FFXIV took but still play it because they feel like there is nowhere else to go. Many people would LOVE FFXI but the interface and graphics are a HUGE problem, even the installation and account creation are barriers. I do believe a remaster of any kind of FFXI would drawn many frustrated players from FFXIV and they would really prefer the FFXI experience a lot more.

Most people don't even know how much FFXI is all they are looking for in an MMO but keep away from it because of how much of a huge starting barrier it got and how old it's graphics and interface look.

Yes this is very true. It is honestly extremely sad, most of the 11 players back in the day HATED the WoW gameplay and concept. Yet now the majority of them all went to XIV because its supported by its actual DEV team and company, and it has pretty graphics and FF related nostalgia bombs. They would all come back to XI if the graphics were remastered and the UI and clunkiness overhauled. The global cooldown in XI is pretty horrible, I find myself spamming macros or actions for them to go off, feels very clunky. I am almost 100% positive they could have two very successful MMOs that cater to different crowds, if only they would put more life and money into XI...

[Lortheron]

Yes this is very true. It is honestly extremely sad, most of the 11 players back in the day HATED the WoW gameplay and concept. Yet now the majority of them all went to XIV because its supported by its actual DEV team and company, and it has pretty graphics and FF related nostalgia bombs. They would all come back to XI if the graphics were remastered and the UI and clunkiness overhauled. The global cooldown in XI is pretty horrible, I find myself spamming macros or actions for them to go off, feels very clunky. I am almost 100% positive they could have two very successful MMOs that cater to different crowds, if only they would put more life and money into XI...

I 100% agree with you. Classic 3D MMORPG players are orphaned with no where to go... Just FFXI, EQ1 and DAoC still have retail servers up, from the true classics.

[Alhanelem]

Yes this is very true. It is honestly extremely sad, most of the 11 players back in the day HATED the WoW gameplay and concept. Yet now the majority of them all went to XIV because its supported by its actual DEV team and company, and it has pretty graphics and FF related nostalgia bombs. They would all come back to XI if the graphics were remastered and the UI and clunkiness overhauled. The global cooldown in XI is pretty horrible, I find myself spamming macros or actions for them to go off, feels very clunky. I am almost 100% positive they could have two very successful MMOs that cater to different crowds, if only they would put more life and money into XI...

Personally, I picked up FFXI while waiting for WoW to come out. At the time I was a big fan of Blizzard's other games, like Warcraft II and III and Diablo II. But a friend invited me to play this game and it's been hell ever since lol. I did play for a time, but I just didn't quite fall in love with it the way I did FFXI. I didn't hate it by any stretch of the imagination. But FFXI just had a certain charm to it that WoW couldn't replicate. Probably the biggest reason for this was its lack of a real story at the time.

[Pixela]

It's depressing to me that the future of FF mmorpgs is going to be like ff14 now, because that userbase simply is more happy to be higher monetized.

Very casual, very easy, very care bear community, very monetized (and happy to be), very moderated, very flashy and over the top.

[Alhanelem]

It's depressing to me that the future of FF mmorpgs is going to be like ff14 now, because that userbase simply is more happy to be higher monetized.

Very casual, very easy, very care bear community, very monetized (and happy to be), very moderated, very flashy and over the top.
I mean, it isn't. things are constantly changing in the MMO universe. Many long time players of FFXIV feel the same way about where things are going since they started as you do at this point.

[Lortheron]

I mean, it isn't. things are constantly changing in the MMO universe. Many long time players of FFXIV feel the same way about where things are going since they started as you do at this point.

Indeed, I remember promises of implementing things like the elements well and healing spells damaging undead, etc., making the overall game more complex and more like FFXI, that was back in 2.0, up until Ninja came out... then Heaven'sWard came and at the end of it, all hope was lost. Instances everywhere, no open world content, claustrophobic feeling, no huge areas to explore, world feels very small, lore makes zero sense, list goes on... turns out it went the WoW clone route, and plays like an easy single player game that forces players to do tons of extra easy content without any difficulty option in order to progress.

[Lortheron]

It's depressing to me that the future of FF mmorpgs is going to be like ff14 now, because that userbase simply is more happy to be higher monetized.

Very casual, very easy, very care bear community, very monetized (and happy to be), very moderated, very flashy and over the top.

I agree, the game should be less solo, and way less claustrophobic and instanced, with a lot more open world content and vast areas (FFXIV that is). The game could've went a totally different route even back in 2.0, but it went the full dumbed down WoW clone route instead, a missed opportunity. And anything remotely considered slightly complex or difficult at all is removed and streamlined FAST each and every update. It does not respect the player's intelligence. Having to content with segregated ~10% content that is engaging (Salvages and Extremes) and only available after one has done days of braindead easy content is ridiculous.

I used to like FFXIV back in 2.0 and had hopes for it, but alas it has turned into simply a very commercial game made to appeal to each and every person one way or another...

[Lortheron]

What works for WoW isn't guaranteed to work for other games. See the other "classic server" topic we just had and all the ones before that. SE has already said "Not happening."

The WoW team has the resources and community size to launch a whole bunch of versions of the same game. the FFXI team does not. The community isn't big enough for that either.

That said, I think they would stand to gain from promoting the game to FFXIV players, if they did it right by offering a combined subscription promotion and making improvements to the UI and stuff to be easier for people used to modern MMOs. The unfortunate reality is they did have such a UI in development at one point (which a few of us got to try a VERY early version of on the test server back when we had one), but it was sadly scrapped.

What about Everquest1? It has a smaller community and less resources than FFXI and it's being treated much better by it's developers, it also has more than one timelocked server (classic servers with some modern improvements and QoL) with different rulesets. Even Dark Age of Camelot got graphics updates and interface updates as well as some new content, and it has servers with different rulesets to please people whom don't like the latest expansions, all with a fraction of the recourses and community FFXI has.

Square Enix simply decides not to invest money back into FFXI and allocates resources elsewhere, It's quite obvious that not even half the money people whom play FFXI pay to Square Enix goes back into the same game.

[Alhanelem]

Indeed, I remember promises of implementing things like the elements well and healing spells damaging undead, etc., making the overall game more complex and more like FFXI, that was back in 2.0, up until Ninja came out... then Heaven'sWard came and at the end of it, all hope was lost. Instances everywhere, no open world content, claustrophobic feeling, no huge areas to explore, world feels very small, lore makes zero sense, list goes on... turns out it went the WoW clone route, and plays like an easy single player game that forces players to do tons of extra easy content without any difficulty option in order to progress.
I take issue with many of your statements here, but the point was that all MMOs will be different in several years vs wh en they released. You have to keep adding and changing t hings to keep players interest. Of course, there will always be those who don't like the direction it takes as well as those who get happier with the changes in direction. Such is life.


And somewhat ironically, in recent days people have been flocking from WoW to FFXIV as the better game of the two, and WoW has almost been cloning FFXIV more than the other way around.


As far as FFXI goes, personally, while it has changed a lot over the years, even if I stop playing for a while, for some reason I always find my way back lol. It just has a charm that is just missing from a lot of games to day of all types. Despite the changes and conveinences and even the level cap rise and subsequent content, the game has stayed relatively true to what it is and where it came from, never doing things just because everyone else has done it, but only because they think it's genuinely a good idea to do said things.

[Alhanelem]

What about Everquest1? It has a smaller community and less resources than FFXI and it's being treated much better by it's developersI don't think this statement (about the size of the EQ community) is accurate.

As far as about how and where and why money gets spent, it's all about percieved return on investment. The higher ups just don't see the likelyhood of return on the level of investment required to do those things.

They very well could end up doing something big, but it's probably going to be a new project. Sequel in the same world or something that wou ld be actually likely to generate new interest and worth investing a full project budget on.

We could find out next year at the 20th anniversary when the Voracious Resurgence concludes. Frankly, despite the lack of resources being granted by the higher-ups, when i look at the FFXI staff in the digests, I see people who are genuinely interested and care about their project and maybe even look a little frustrated that they aren't given the resources to do more. I will fantasize that a (not mobile) remake will happen where we can carry over at least something from the XI of yore.

The reason is that FFXI was built on PS2 hardware, and this ends up making it remarkably more difficult (and thus more costly) to make the kind of changes other games which were developed on and for PC natively can do. To really give the game the kind of makeover it needs to be relevant today would require it to be mostly rebuilt from the ground up. An "FFXI-2" could get a full game budget to do that, possibly, but it would be to cost prohibitive for too little return to do for FFXI proper, most likely.