Thoughts on a shared subscription?

[PMS_Jordan]

Hiya Everyone,

I was over on the FFXIV forums and I came across a post that is getting some decent tracking about wanting a shared subscription between FFXI and FFXIV. Kind of how a WoW sub gives you access to both Retail and the Classic severs.

What's your opinion on the the topic? Would you want or not want something like that?
I personally would love it since I play both games and it would save me an extra subscription fee each month. However, I only recently came back to XI so I'm not for sure if a shared sub would cause issues for the game or not.

[Stuzey]

I'm not sure if you know, but they had shared subscriptions when FFXIV was released, I have the link here, it offered a discount if you purchased both

http://www.playonline.com/ff11eu/topics/ffxiv/

They stopped it, I think when FFXIV got canned for ARR, maybe before.

While I probably wouldn't use it, as I never got on with FFXIV, of course I would support it, FFXI would be the main beneficiary, bringing more people back who have jumped ship.

I remember way back, when they were developing FFXIV (Or Rapture as it was known), there was some talk of linking the games, so you could chat between them, but they never went through with this, shame....

[Alhanelem]

It has been suggested many times, and in some circumstances they've suggested they could look into it, but they have stated that there is a difficulty in that the two games use entirely seperate systems for handling the subscription and payment processes.

At the time the shared subcription did exist, both games used the Square Enix Account Management system. But when FFXIV was relaunched, the game was moved to a separate account system.

It's a lame excuse tbh, but it is the reason given.

[Clou777]

just imagine if millions of players suddenly came to FFXI lol, we usually just get a couple of thousand playing on each server

[PMS_Jordan]

I'm not sure if you know, but they had shared subscriptions when FFXIV was released, I have the link here, it offered a discount if you purchased both

http://www.playonline.com/ff11eu/topics/ffxiv/

They stopped it, I think when FFXIV got canned for ARR, maybe before.

While I probably wouldn't use it, as I never got on with FFXIV, of course I would support it, FFXI would be the main beneficiary, bringing more people back who have jumped ship.

I remember way back, when they were developing FFXIV (Or Rapture as it was known), there was some talk of linking the games, so you could chat between them, but they never went through with this, shame....

A decent amount of people on the FFXIV forums are saying a shared sub would kill FFXI (somehow) Which makes no sense to me since more players would help the game.

[Alhanelem]

A decent amount of people on the FFXIV forums are saying a shared sub would kill FFXI (somehow) Which makes no sense to me since more players would help the game.The logic is because they'd probably get a little less money from a lot of existing players who have had accounts for both for a long time. But there are also those who have never tried one (or the other) and might be more motivated to if it didn't cost as much.

[Pixela]

No, this would be a terrible idea. For multiple reasons.

FFXI and FFXIV have totally separate development teams, they both require money to keep staff employed. How are they supposed to split this money exactly?

Assuming the argument is that XI should take the smaller cut and ffxiv should get the most. Why on earth would FFXI take 50% less money from some people for barely any benefit? To get more people to play from FFXIV? If the hurdle for them is being unwilling to pay $3 a week, why would paying $1.50 change that? It wouldn't. Beside that, it's a fact that XI is not going to be liked by most XIV players anyway (and vice versa), there isn't some mass army of XIV players waiting to rush in but the $3 is putting them off. $3 is not a massive turn off to an XIV player, since it is already one of the most expensive mmorpgs to play on the market (sub, expansion fees, cash shop) and XI follows in fairly close behind. People playing either game do not have money problems so severe that paying an extra $1.50 a week (paying half is supposed to be a deal breaker?) is a massive turn off.

If the argument is that you should have access to both games for $12, then hell no. That's utterly stupid, one game would literally take a massive cut in income.

End result of a shared sub is FFXI would get less money from a portion of their customers who currently pay for both, when it can ill afford to cut the money it has coming in as it is. FFXI does not have a cash shop to offset, the sub is all it has. Given the state of inflation right now, this is the last thing they want to do.

Also it would cause friction in the XI community. If someone paying a sub for XI and XIV is to get a reduction for paying 2, what about someone that pays multiple subs to XI for alts? Do they get no reduction, why is the double/quad/triple etc money they pay worth less than the double money someone pays for 2 different products?

This is like walking into a store and asking them to give you 50% off the 2nd box of chips because it's made by the same company, if you want both pay for both.

Half the people suggesting this think nothing of paying $3 for their morning coffee in Starbucks.

[Alhanelem]

No, this would be a terrible idea. For multiple reasons.

FFXI and FFXIV have totally separate development teams, they both require money to keep staff employed. How are they supposed to split this money exactly?No. This isn't a terrible idea, and it's a very simple one. The idea is that SE will make more money, not less, from people with an interest in both games but are unwilling to pay for multiple full price subscription MMOs at the same time. You give them a bit of a break if they subscribe to both.

This is no different from, say, insurance companies offering a discount for getting different insurance products from them at the same time. They make more money if every customer uses only their services instead of one service from them and another from someone else. Further, going back to FF, subbing to both games means they're even less likely to be subbing to a competitor's game.

Think about this more carefully. If you're a big company and you're trying to find an easy way to get more money from your customers. If you have two things and most customers only buy one thing or the other, does it really not make sense to you that they would offer a discount on buying both? Yes, they make a little less money on the sale, but it's still more money than if they only sold the one product instead of both.


The goal here is to attract some users who play FFXIV, have heard of FFXI and are curious about it but are on the fence because of the cost.




This is like walking into a store and asking them to give you 50% off the 2nd box of chips because it's made by the same company, if you want both pay for both. Uh, this happens all the time. Have you ever heard of coupons or multiple pricing before? Save a dollar when you buy two with this coupon! Sale price, three for $10, all [insert brand here] products!

[Pixela]

No. This isn't a terrible idea, and it's a very simple one. The idea is that SE will make more money, not less, from people with an interest in both games but are unwilling to pay for multiple full price subscription MMOs at the same time. You give them a bit of a break if they subscribe to both.

This is no different from, say, insurance companies offering a discount for getting different insurance products from them at the same time. They make more money if every customer uses only their services instead of one service from them and another from someone else. Further, going back to FF, subbing to both games means they're even less likely to be subbing to a competitor's game.

Think about this more carefully. If you're a big company and you're trying to find an easy way to get more money from your customers. If you have two things and most customers only buy one thing or the other, does it really not make sense to you that they would offer a discount on buying both? Yes, they make a little less money on the sale, but it's still more money than if they only sold the one product instead of both.


The goal here is to attract some users who play FFXIV, have heard of FFXI and are curious about it but are on the fence because of the cost.


Uh, this happens all the time. Have you ever heard of coupons or multiple pricing before? Save a dollar when you buy two with this coupon! Sale price, three for $10, all [insert brand here] products!

Most XIV players will not like XI and will never like it, it is so alien and punishing an experience from XIV.
Most XI players do not like XIV and will never like it, it is so alien an experience from XI (almost all XI players have played XIV, we do not like it).

https://i.imgur.com/HkYi3AH.jpg

This image perfectly encapsulates both games:

FFXI gives you so much freedom that most modern players do not know what to do and where to go, they get mad and quit in the first few hours (we like this, XIV players don't) FFXI endgame is so punishing for new players that it almost feels like the developers want you to fail and most XIV players baulk at this mindset.

FFXIV drags you around by the hand constantly from start to finish, to the point you have no freedom at all (we don't like this, XIV players do), XIV won't even let you in a dungeon unless it knows you can clear it most of the time.

The potential crossover of players that will like both is pretty small, and of those that do they don't want to play both at once and actually just swap and change between them so a double sub serves no purpose at all. Also, of the few that I know of that pay a sub to both but only play one and alternate....*they do this to help the game* so letting them pay less is counter productive to the reason they do it.

This would be like paying money to an artist to support them on Patreon, so they can continue making pictures you like and them offering a 50% less option. Then the artist stopping making pictures because they aren't making enough money anymore.

The argument you're making only makes sense is there is a massive army of people on XIV that want to play 11, but $3 is a massive hurdle and $1.50 isn't (lol), this is complete nonsense.

Almost everyone that makes this argument saying "it's good business to charge less because more people will buy your product" have no idea what they are talking about most of the time, the world isn't as simple as people make it out to be. If you charge $10 to buy a Death Metal CD (or whatever niche product), and then lower the price to $5 you now have to have twice as many customers buying it to bring in the same money (why would you do this to bring the same money, the point it so make more and so you need 3 times as many people now buying it). The issue with this is that tastes are different and some products just appeal to a niche audience, lowering the price does not massively increase the userbase if it's a niche product. The reason Death MEtal is not mainstream is not the price, my granny does not listen to death metal because the CD costs too much and so lowering the price of a Death Metal CD to $5 won't do much.

FFXI offers a niche experience that we want but that is not and has never been popular with the mainstream audience that XIV caters to, so they will never like it in large numbers. Even if XI was free this would not change, the game would just have a mass army of level 1 to 10 players that quit in a few hours.

[Stuzey]

I don't think the money is the issue, more the convenience, if it's a simple click of the button to pay for both I genuinely believe more will think, what the hell I'll give it a go.

But, you could be right, I don't like XIV and thus, don't play it, I don't think a joint subscription would change my mind, even though I have many old XI friends who play it... So I contradict my thoughts with my actions...

What I would say, is what have we to lose, it's not like we get new battlefields regularly, I see more people leave XI as they have run out of things to do (and don't want to spam the same fights in odyssey), maybe a joint subscription would move the spotlight onto XI and encourage more development.....

[Sfchakan]

Looking at what happens when you throw more randoms at a single server, I don't know that this is a good thing at this point to thrust thousands of new players used to p2win style MMOs into the FFXI environment. Just a recipe for more gilbuyers filling RMT and merc pockets, making more servers be garbage like Asura.

[Alhanelem]

Most XIV players will not like XI and will never like it, it is so alien and punishing an experience from XIV.
Most XI players do not like XIV and will never like it, it is so alien an experience from XI (almost all XI players have played XIV, we do not like it).This is an assumption, not a fact, amd I've personally encountered many people curious about the game but they are deterred when I tell them "It still has a subscription."




Almost everyone that makes this argument saying "it's good business to charge less because more people will buy your product" have no idea what they are talking about most of the time Except that's not the argument I was making. You are speaking of unilatirally changing the price of something for everyone, which works under certain circumstances up to a point until you hit the sweet spot, which is what the final price of a product usually is.

We're talking about a promotional price here- A price that requires conditions to be met, in this case, subscribing to two games. Not everyone is paying this promotional price and this is what makes it effective. You gain the customers that demand a lower price while still having the customers who were fine to begin with. If there's a shared subscription discount, now you have (for example) 1000 people paying you $20 a month instead of $12.95. Yes, you aren't getting $25.90, but you wouldn't have been getting that anyway because they would not have done both subs otherwise.

This is what you seem to be missing. Further, this particularly benefits former players of FFXI who are now playing FFXIV. They might want to play FFXI again but don't really want to pay for subs. I personally do this grudgingly, because I have the money to spare, but I still feel like I shouldn't have to.

I agree that FFXI is a niche experience, but it has its share of former players who would consider playing again if the value proposition was better, along with people playing FFXIV who are curious about what old MMOs were like.


Looking at what happens when you throw more randoms at a single server, I don't know that this is a good thing at this point to thrust thousands of new players used to p2win style MMOs into the FFXI environment. Just a recipe for more gilbuyers filling RMT and merc pockets, making more servers be garbage like Asura. Well, they shouldn't be thrown at a single server. Which would be a bad idea even if Asura wasn't the way it is already.

Also, FFXIV is not a pay to win MMO.

[Pixela]

If they don't want to pay the full sub for 11, stay on 14. The only reason most 11 players want more players is to make the game more profitable, if you don't want to pay the full sub they're just in the way of our queue to enter content. Sorry but it's true.

There is no greater benefit to Square Enix in someone playing 11 and 14 as opposed to me paying for 6 subs on 11, as such why should they be rewarded above me and people like me.

Not only would this give them barely any benefit (in-fact quite the opposite imo) it would cause a huge amount of bad feeling in people who pay multiple subs.

Not that I'm worried about them doing it, nobody does this unless there is an ulterior motive.

[Pixela]

Also as you are well aware, the sub price has never increased with inflation. So in real terms it already is half what it used to be.

[Alhanelem]

he only reason most 11 players want more players is to make the game more profitable, if you don't want to pay the full sub they're just in the way of our queue to enter content. Sorry but it's true.More subscribers makes the game more profitable even if they don't pay the full price. Or maybe you have no idea just how big their margins really are.



Also as you are well aware, the sub price has never increased with inflation. So in real terms it already is half what it used to be. Although this is true, that fact just makes the game more accessible, and another nudge in the form of an offer like this may make all the difference for some people. Like I said above, the margins are really high on sub fees. Many MMO-like games like Guild Wars operated for years without sub fees in spite of having similar sorts of server and other back end costs. If they were able to do that without sub fees, an MMO like this one that is presently quiite light in actual development has huge margins on the sub fees. They can afford cutting people a break if it means more subs.

I'm subscribed to both. The only reason I don't feel like I need a break is I have a permanent sub discount on FFXIV for paying for the bad version while they worked on A Realm Reborn. So in short, I enjoy the discount that I think other people should have.

[Pixela]

FF14 has a cash shop, to offset a few people having a lower sub.

FF14 could literally give the game away with no sub and still make money from that cash shop from the free players.

FF11 only has the sub.

It's annoying to me that you accept the game has not gone up with inflation and want it to be EVEN Cheaper again, why not just ask them to pay you to play it?

[Tharly]

We are paying the same price as when the game received large updates and content. Since it is no longer doing so, the value of a subscription has decreased for long time players much more than any possible inflation has increased the value of a subcription. Many games get reduced subcription costs in the twilight of their existance.

[Pixela]

We are paying the same price as when the game received large updates and content. Since it is no longer doing so, the value of a subscription has decreased for long time players much more than any possible inflation has increased the value of a subcription. Many games get reduced subcription costs in the twilight of their existance.

Go read what inflation is and how it works.

[Alhanelem]

FF14 has a cash shop, to offset a few people having a lower sub.

FF14 could literally give the game away with no sub and still make money from that cash shop from the free players.

FF11 only has the sub.

It's annoying to me that you accept the game has not gone up with inflation and want it to be EVEN Cheaper again, why not just ask them to pay you to play it?

The cash shop is not there because of the legacy players. Lol.

I mean, they are still raking in money hand over fist. If there was no inflation they'd HAVE to drop the price to get people to play a 20 year old game. Inflation is the only reason we're willing to accept that cuirrent price.

The point of a dual sub is to attract more actual players who currently play their other MMO (or vice versa, even) EVEN with inflation, they are still making more money than if those players stayed with one sub only.

I mean lets be real here, you're siding with the big coroporation over the players. That doesn't even really seem like you. Man if anyone needed any proof that I'm not a white knight, this is the thread.

[Pixela]

It's amazing to me that so many adults in the west do not understand how inflation works, it's so rampant that I think it's intentional in our education system. This way, when your boss gives you a raise in-line with inflation you think they love you and are giving you more money. In reality you're getting nothing more, but the number increased.


The cash shop is not there because of the legacy players. Lol.

The point is, the cash shop allows them to make money from people paying less and in-fact they could happily have people playing for free and still make money from them. This is why WOW and 14 added cash shops, to literally offset losses from inflation.

FF11 only has the sub, and so is hit massively by inflation. Inflation will eventually kill FF11 even if player numbers stay as high as they are today, in 10 years that $12 will be worth $3 in real terms.

[Alhanelem]

It's amazing to me that so many adults in the west do not understand how inflation worksInsulting me doesn't make your argument better.

I know how inflation works. It's the concept of how growth over time de-values currency. We already had another debate about this in the past about how the US Federal Reserve tries to maintain a 2% inflation target, because that measure of slight growth encourages investment and innovation and consumer spending.

Don't treat me like an moron and expect to get away with it.

I'm not going to shed a tear that the $12.95 SE gets from me today is not worth as much as the $12.95 they got from me 20 years ago. They still have huge profit margins, far beyond that of any physical retail product.

This is really starting to come across as you arguing against me for the sake of doing so, you can not possibly believe that offering this kind of promotion would be harmful to SE. Even if it was, it would be a drop in the bucket, and it could even still be a temporary promotion and then they might have more full price subscribers later if they decide to end it.

That's called good marketing.

[Tharly]

Go read what inflation is and how it works.


Learn what consumption is. A game that has been played through has had most value used out of it. There is a world of difference between paying for doing new things and doing the same things over and over again for the same price.

[Alhanelem]

Learn what consumption is. A game that has been played through has had most value used out of it. There is a world of difference between paying for doing new things and doing the same things over and over again for the same price.
Could not have said it better myself.

[Voidstorm]

in 10 years that $12 will be worth $3 in real terms.
From what I see now vs ~20 years ago comparing things that matter like land... it's probably worth about $1 from back then.

[Pixela]

Learn what consumption is. A game that has been played through has had most value used out of it. There is a world of difference between paying for doing new things and doing the same things over and over again for the same price.

Almost all the content in FFXI in the past was added via $40 expansions and not the subscription, most of the content from expansions was held back (or just not finished at all and our $40 paid for it to be made) from the box install and added over the following years. We used to literally pay $40 for a XI expansion and it was just barren zones with maybe one or two minor things to do and 2 missions.

So in reality not only is FFXI cheaper today than it ever has been in history, you are also getting far more for that sub than ever before too.

I would say enjoy but you obviously already are since you're here and paying the sub, when there are literally hundreds of other mmorpgs you can play for free if you so choose.


Insulting me doesn't make your argument better.

The text aimed at you was under the quote from you, that was aimed at Tharly and others that do not understand that $12 today is not the same as $12 10 years ago and has a totally different real world value. You know that MASSIVE $3 a week that could pay your rent if not for being spent on the staff that make content for you.

I'm well aware you understand how inflation works, you just want to pay less when you would not want to pay less for ff14 (since you value that more).

[Pixela]

,, , ,, ,, , ,, ,

[Stuzey]

Back in the day, £12 used to get me, a ticket to the cinema, a meal, a coupe of pints and pay for the bus journey home, now it just about pays for the cinema ticket :)

This topic is becoming bogged down under the cost, to be perfectly honest, I think most FFXI players would happily pay for another expansion, the money isn't the issue, I see more people leaving these days as they have run out of content they want to do (Yes you can spam Odyssey, for new shinny gear, but when you have limited relevant content, you soon get bored... Let's be honest, fighting the same mob, over and over again, isn't really fun, Nyzul was fun, Salvage was fun, they had different levels to them, different mobs, more complexity, more rewards, that's what my £12 paid for 12 years ago.

While inflation may mean we are getting a better deal, it feels we are getting less for our money

[Pixela]

The issue with serious endgame players on FFXI is the drop rates increased massively, we went from players expecting to do salvage for years to complete sets to complaining they didn't cap out on Shinryu drops in a month. The mass majority of ffxi players are still working on Dyna D gear let alone Ody, so this "lack of content" is very much only impacting the top 10-20% that have the means to spam new content and now have expectations of getting all the drops in a few months.

Reality check: Every mmorpg has these people, they are totally insatiable and no dev team can keep them happy. FF14 devs literally telll their hardcore players to go play another game if they are bored and come back for new patches.

Back in they day we did Dynamis for 10 years because the drop rates kept you there, so this isn't that we used to have so much content before and so little now. It's that drop rates are so high you're actually capping content now when you barely ever did before.


Here the realtity if you want it put straight:

Pay $3 a month for ZERO updates at all EVER AGAIN because all the staff your sub pays for retire and are not replaced (and once this happens it is over, because they will not be able to train people to come on at a later date, this knowledge on updating this old engine will be lost forever), the reduced fee will just pay insurance fees, power, server maintenance etc costs.

or

Pay $12 a month to pay the wages of the people who work on the game now.

These are your two options, you cannot pay less and get what you're getting now because what little you are paying now pays their wages. As the money coming in is reduced they make more cuts to staff and so you get less and at a point they just quit trying to keep updating the game at all and retire or go work on some new project in SE.

Also this is not $12 a week, this is $3 a week for a game you probably spend upto 20-60 hours a week on. This is not a movie that you're done with in 2 hours, or a starbucks cofee you spend $3.99 on and is gone in 10. The only people that can possibly complain about paying so little are people who mass multibox, and if you did that (as I do) you chose to do it.

[Tharly]

So in reality not only is FFXI cheaper today than it ever has been in history, you are also getting far more for that sub than ever before too.


Confuse yourself how you want. The value is the lowest its ever been. You are paying the same price as a new car for a 19 year old car.

A 12.99 sub in 2003 is equivalent to 19.27 today with inflation. The cost of the addons went down to a point where you can get all of them for less than 10 bucks.

There are time sinks, unholy grinds and time gates galore to keep people subbed longer. Why do they stay subbed longer? Because the game still has value. Once most content has been done, the value has been used up and people quit. Then come back when there is new content, and higher value again.

14 is packed right now for many factors, but one of the main ones is a new expansion coming in a few months so people are finishing up the last one in preparation. I expect November subs to go up again when the people who are on break from 14 come back again for the new content.

Value is more than just a number with a dollar sign in front of it you can index to inflation.

[Stuzey]

You're right in saying drops are easier now, Abyssea seemed to be the catalyst for that change, you're also saying that with inflation we get better value for money now.

But Dyna D is almost 4 years old now..... Even with the fact you paid for the expansion, back in 2006 we got Aht Urghan, which gave us Salvage, Nyzul, Assualts, ZNM's, HNM's and a whole host more, which stayed relevant until 2010 (four years latter) and the level cap being raised. The monthly fee supported a lot more content, which was more varied and had more depth to it, as you say, you didn't cap out on it all, because you had so much variety in what you could do.

[Pixela]

Pay $12

That pooled $12 (remember, your MASSIVE $12 can't pay for the developers coffee for 1 singular morning alone, it's the pooled money that makes the project possible) is calculated by Square Enix and the XI dev team are given a budget to pay wages, so they can make new content. This includes things like Ody, login items, new story missions, new stuff and the upcoming 20th updates.

>whine it should be $6 because you can't seem to think ahead*

Pay $6.

That pooled $6 is now calculated by Square Enix and the XI dev team now get a budget 50% smaller than last year to make new content, since almost all this money goes on wages this means they have to lay off half the workers.

you: "b-b-but I thought I would get the same as I'm getting now and pay half! why is this happening to me!?"

You now get 50% less content than what you're complaining about.

>whine it should be $3 because you can't seem to think ahead*

"I want to pay $3!"

That pooled $3 is now calculated by Square Enix and the XI dev team now get a budget 50% smaller than last year to make new content, since almost all this money goes on wages this means they have to lay off half the workers. Since the amount of staff required to make content has a breaking point, they almost all probably ask to retire or moved to another project.

You now pay $3 and you get nothing ever again, now your brain finally clicks that this entire argument wasn't a good idea because you still have no other MMORPG to move to and now the game will literally never get another update at all. However, now it's too late to undo because the team are gone and there is zero incentive to hire more people and train them to use this outdated engine.

*If you still want to play the game, you have to understand that less money coming in means a smaller budget next year. So unless you are off to play another game, why on earth would you want less things to do than what you're complaining about now?

If $12 a lot i could understand it, but it's literally not. It's $3 a week, for something you spend most of your time on. If you did not think XI was worth it, why are you here when there are literal Free to play games for you to move to? Also btw, every mmorpg has a lack of content....because they all have a higher burn rate than 11 does. So no matter where you go, you'll have the same issues once you burn through the basic content as a new player.

Square keep this game running as a service to fans and because the current developers love the game and WANT to keep working on it, they would much prefer you move to XIV because it it basically a shopping mall that most people end up spending hundreds of dollars on, with new mounts, level skips, pretty outfits and other nonsense. A company will always put more money into a game which has multiple ways to get more money out of you as opposed to a simple sub fee.

Maybe you should should stop playing the game and instead give that $12 to Nasa so the can fly to the moon? or end world hunger maybe. After all, this is $12 whole dollars we are talking about.

[Tharly]

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Others see things differently. Getting a discount after a game has been out for a while is normal and so is discounting bundled services. They won't be doing it so really there is nothing to discuss anyways.

[Pixela]

Are you a ff14 player like the others suggesting this? Just wondering since I know many ff14 players want XI to shut down and all.

[PMS_Jordan]

Are you a ff14 player like the others suggesting this? Just wondering since I know many ff14 players want XI to shut down and all.

If you are refereeing to me then yes. I play both games. However, I personally haven't ran into XIV players who wanted XI shut down.

[Pixela]

No I'm referring to Tharly. I have run into many ff14 players that want "ff11 shut down so all the players go onto that game" and so "the money spend on 11 can goto 14"

That's not how it works ofc but I've come across many of them all the same.

[Tharly]

I'm not sure how you would get that kind of assumption from my statements. I do play both and while I am on 14 mostly now, I enjoy both. I would love to see 11 get more updates and have more value for me, but without new content that isn't going to happen. But as I have stated multiple times, most of the entertainment value has dried up in 11 due to having done the content available which means I have less incentive to stay subbed.

How many of you would keep paying the same amount to watch a movie over and over again? No matter how much you like that movie, paying full price for it each time you watch it will make you not watch it. Put that movie in the bargain bin though and it becomes more available as an impulse buy because the lower price reflects the lower value the movie now has to you.

[Alhanelem]

Are you a ff14 player like the others suggesting this? Just wondering since I know many ff14 players want XI to shut down and all.
I don't know anyone who has actually said that with a straight face. But I also don't really engage with the XIV community a lot, Most of my time is spent on things in the game most others don't care about lol

[Pixela]

The thing is, this isn't about money. Most asking for this think nothing of spending an extra $2 to have chocolate sprinkles on their coffee or a snickers bar from the vending machine. This isn't about saving $1.50 a week on a sub, it's just purely some kind of weird mental hangup linked to it being a subscription. It's kind of like someone buying extra value beans at the store and saving 50cents so they can feel good about "saving money" and then spending $120 on some new headphones because you thought the color was nicer than their old ones. None of the people arguing about this are poor, saving $6 a *month* isn't going to have any impact on your life at all.

To some, ffxi is a side game. They only marginally care about it, their main game is another so they can say things they know will have a catastrophic effect on the game with little worry, because they only play it now and then anyway and they will soon be flitting off back to 14. Many of these same people defend a $30 mount in the cash shop of their main game, above and beyond the main sub even....because it's their main game and they care more about it.

To others FFXI is their main game and there is no other game we can move to, because we think the rest of the market is full of garbage. To us, the people who make the content having their budget slashed means we will get even less content than we get now. We don't want less than we already get. The finance dept at Square Enix decide how much money this game gets, its not upto the developers they just make what they can with the money they have.

The benefit of getting content on a game we spend so much time on > the negligible benefit to our lives of having that extra $6 a month.

We get new missions, we get new ambuscade dungeons (a new one was added last month), new HTBF, new login items, we new endgame content, new gear or just new stuff in general. Even if you don't see or like these additions every month it's still things that are being worked on that take many months to complete that are being created in an on-going fashion. Even if you're annoyed at the amount of content you're getting it's still better than getting nothing at all if it's a game you are playing.

To be frank, we are getting way more than we should be getting given the skeleton crew the game has and in-fact more than most mmorpgs on the market get.

[Stompa]

To others FFXI is their main game and there is no other game we can move to, because we think the rest of the market is full of garbage.



This. On giant golden rollerskates.

I also want to thank you, for reminding people that the Devs are working very hard to keep the game running smoothly and crammed full of treats and novelties. You are correct, that the Devs love the game, it isn't business, it is personal.

People have short memories. A few years ago SE had a corporate stage presentation where they announced FFXI would be shutting down pretty much immediately. Fortunately, they later did a big U-turn and decided to keep FFXI running on a devoted skeleton crew.

Later, the Devs said, on a FFXI anniversary ; "thanks for fifteen years of FFXI, and here's to fifteen more!"

A huge change of direction, from nearly sinking in a storm, to sailing happily on calm sunny seas.

I actually am dirt-poor, but I wouldn't even hesitate to pay double the current FFXI monthly subs just to keep Vana'diel in my life.

[Alhanelem]

The thing is, this isn't about money.Except that it is, most people don't want to subscribe to multiple MMOs at the same time, even if it's not a matter of whether they can afford it. People don't want to waste money, even if they have plenty of it. There are many people who would be enticed to play another MMO if they could get a discount for doing so. We're not talking big numbers here but it costs basically nothing for SE to offer if people end up not utilizing it, and if they do gain some subs out of it, they're still making more than they would have if those people didn't subscribe to a second game.



To others FFXI is their main game and there is no other game we can move to, because we think the rest of the market is full of garbage.There is *some* truth to this. Even I feel like MMOs today aren't made like they used to be, when they were really meant to be like an extension of yourself, rather than "just" a game you play. However, that doesn't mean today's MMOs can't be fun, or that they're "garbage," but rather they just aren't enjoyed in the same way. FFXIV is full of fun content that I enjoy for what it is. Where it fails is in the community department. The duty finder, while making it easier to group for content, makes the whole experience a lot less personal because in many cases you're not likely to see the same players again unless you liked them well enough to befriend them.

That doesn't mean the game is garbage or isn't fun, but it does mean FFXI is capable of fufilling needs that FFXIV (and other modern MMOs) can't.

But this is also a reason such a program could be fruitful, the two games offer very different experiences, and there is value for some to be had in playing both of them. And while there definitely are people who see all modern MMO experiences as inferior to those of the era of FFXI, there are also those who like the ones of today, as well as those who are curious about the past.

Need I remind you that during FFXIV's original conceptual phase, they originally envisioned FFXI and FFXIV as being two worlds that were directly linked in the same universe, and you could even switch from one to the other. This is why FFXIV's original races were made in the image of FFXI's, with all of the same hair styles etc (plus more, of course). There was in fact a hope at one point that we would want to play both. There is really a lot to gain by making this easier for people.



A few years ago SE had a corporate stage presentation where they announced FFXI would be shutting down pretty much immediately.They never said the game was shutting down, much less "immediately," but rather that they planned to end major updates and go into "maintenance mode." So I call [Citation Needed] on that. There was also concern expressed about a major FF title becoming unplayable and them not wanting that to happen. The cancellation of the mobile re-imagining of the game also likely means they will be continuing to support the game (to some degree at least) for even longer.

Ultimately everyone should have the oppertunity to experience Vana'diel, and get a sense of the history of MMOs and how they evolved from games like this (and Everquest, and Ultima)

[Stuzey]

Is it fact that 100% of the income FFXI generates goes to supporting FFXI? I assume they would want to make a profit from it, it would be interesting to see what the spend to cost ratio actually is (I know we will never see this).

The funny thing is, even though people disagree on this subject, everyone wants to see FFXI succeed, so kudos to all, you all really care about the future of the game.

On subject, I personally think that a joint subscription would bring more people to XI, hopefully the reduced subscription fees would be offset by an increase in player numbers, with more spotlight on XI, I would hope we would see more development. I see more people leave these days as they have run out of relevant content to keep them playing... I wouldn't even call them serious endgame players, more casual endgame, the serious endgame people left a long time ago, Dynamis D was given as an example as current endgame earlier, it's four year old content, you can't argue that it's been rushed....

[Alhanelem]

Is it fact that 100% of the income FFXI generates goes to supporting FFXI?No, it's not a fact of any game or any studio/publisher/developer.

All money earned goes through accounts recieveable. Money earned by a company goes to all of their pojects, they don't specifically allocate the dollars that came from X project to Y thing.

The only way 100% of income goes to the project that created it is if it's a non-profit company. If 100% of your proceeds is reinvested into the project, then it isn't profit.

SE has to make a profit. And profits can be spent on anything. This was true before FFXI, was true during it, and will be true after it.

It is unreasonable to expect 100% of the money you pay to go towards whatever thing you paid the money for when you're dealing with a for-profit company.

Every game, including FFXI has a budget, or cost to operate. That cost includes development, servers, staff, etc. As long as the game is earning at least that much money, then in that sense, yes all the money goes to FFXI. Once the income exceeds the budget, we have profit. Profit can be spent on anything, if it's specifically for FFXI, then it would still be part of the budget and therefore isn't profit.

You'll often see ppl say "they aren't spending the money on this game, they're funding other projects." The more accurate thing to say would be specifically *profit* is being spent on other pojects. The game has a budget and that budget is exactly how much money is being spent on the game.

[Stuzey]

You're kinda making my point, for me ;)

[Pixela]

Is it fact that 100% of the income FFXI generates goes to supporting FFXI? I assume they would want to make a profit from it, it would be interesting to see what the spend to cost ratio actually is (I know we will never see this).

The funny thing is, even though people disagree on this subject, everyone wants to see FFXI succeed, so kudos to all, you all really care about the future of the game.

On subject, I personally think that a joint subscription would bring more people to XI, hopefully the reduced subscription fees would be offset by an increase in player numbers, with more spotlight on XI, I would hope we would see more development. I see more people leave these days as they have run out of relevant content to keep them playing... I wouldn't even call them serious endgame players, more casual endgame, the serious endgame people left a long time ago, Dynamis D was given as an example as current endgame earlier, it's four year old content, you can't argue that it's been rushed....

No game is made for charitable reasons to keep us happy, they are made to create profits. Maybe 20%-30% (if that) of the money a game makes goes back into the developers and if the game does not make enough profits for the company it has no reason to exist, this applies also to FF14 and applies to the sub and cash shop sales. All the money these games make goto Square Enix and they give some money to the developers in advance, the developers don't get the money from us. This is why FF14 can't add new servers right now to meet increased demand, they literally don't have the money. As such the increase in players is just more congestion for them and has no actual benefit.

FFXIV players enmasse are simply never going to like what FFXI offers no matter what the price is (and vice versa, yes we have almost all played ff14 and came back to 11), it not only looks bad to their eyes since they care more about graphics than most anything else (they complain about textures on ff14 looks let alone 11) but also it's very much the antithesis of ff14 in that it is very much is not casual friendly at the top tier. A REMA can take years and hundreds of millions of gil to obtain, there is also no group building system. These things are foundations of the success of ff14 because it caters to a very casual mainstream audience. We love ff11 because it does not cater to this mass audience and offers us a niche experience. A niche game having mass appeal is a contradiction in terms and what happens is it stops being a niche game if it manages to appeal to the mass market (aka you will no longer like it anyway).

Even if a lot of them do come over with a deal like this, they are not going to stay long enough to make it worth the loss of income from people who play both and like both imo, it will be a net loss of income long-term because for it to be worth doing it would have to triple the number of players doing this. It's also as I said earlier not worth the friction in the community, who will take offense at ff14 players being offered this game for 50% less when they not only pay full price but pay full price on multiple accounts and indeed pay more overall than someone playing 14 and 11 together.

I very much do not understand this mindset that increased player numbers is always a good thing anyway, it's very much not. The game is profitable right now and is doing fine as a vibrant product that stands on its own two legs, it does not need more players at all costs. Ff11 is not a 50% off discount product, it's something many of us value a great deal and has enough players right now to sustain itself just fine. If we get more players they should see it as we do and not some bargain basement experience.

FF11 does not have the infrastructure to accommodate masses of new players anyway honestly. Even if a lot of extra people did come over (which I do not believe would happen long-term) they would end up blocking everyone on everything, from XP camps, to ambuscade, to omen to odyssey because almost nothing on ff11 is instanced and is limited. This is why many people like playing on smaller servers FYI, during campaigns very often it takes upto an hour to get into things like Omen.

No company is going to offer a 2 for 1 deal like this under normal circumstances, and the only time they will is if there is an ulterior motive. The reason they originally offered this was to try get players to move from 11 to 14 because 14 had completely flopped at launch and was rebuilt, it was an act of sheer desperation to try help ff14. Ff14 no longer needs us because it managed to build it's own unique mainstream audience. The online division is ff14 and f11, both games make a profit together and so Yoshida is not going to take a loss on his division anyway.

The reality is, ff11 paid for ff14 to be rebuilt (and created in the first place). Square didn't pay for it, we did because when this was being done all the developers from 11 were shifted to work on 14 and their wages were paid by us. We already paid for 14 to become ARR, now we get to be the discount bargain basement option to them? No thank you.


Except that it is, most people don't want to subscribe to multiple MMOs at the same time, even if it's not a matter of whether they can afford it. People don't want to waste money, even if they have plenty of it. There are many people who would be enticed to play another MMO if they could get a discount for doing so. We're not talking big numbers here but it costs basically nothing for SE to offer if people end up not utilizing it, and if they do gain some subs out of it, they're still making more than they would have if those people didn't subscribe to a second game.

There is no financial argument being made other than just being opposed to paying a sub to a 20 year old game, when in reality no modern game costs $12 solely and has other revenue streams so you are not comparing like with like anyway. FF14 does not cost $12, it costs $12+ expansion costs + cash shop costs (and ff14 makes more money from cash shop crap than sub I would guarantee)

Regardless, it doesn't matter if the game is 100 years old because your sub is not paying for the game and instead is actually paying the wages of the developers / server staff / insurance costs etc to work on it. This is like demanding the mechanic fix your 20 year old car for half price because it's old, no you're paying for his time to work on it so it doesn't matter if it's 20 years old or 1.

The only time age matters is if it's paying for the base game, the game is sold on sale very often.

[Tharly]

Writing a whole essay does not validate your point any better.

[Pixela]

Sure it does.

[Alhanelem]

The reality is, ff11 paid for ff14 to be rebuilt (and created in the first place). Square didn't pay for it, we did because when this was being done all the developers from 11 were shifted to work on 14 and their wages were paid by us. We already paid for 14 to become ARR, now we get to be the discount bargain basement option to them? No thank you.The only context in which this is true is that htey never would have made FFXIV Online if they didn't make FFXI Online.

As I wrote in my previous post, Only the money actually budgeted for FFXI is obligated to be spent on FFXI. The rest is profit, and SE can spend their profit however they desire. Even moving developers around doesn't change this fact. We didn't fund FFXIV with FFXI more than we funded it with any other Square-Enix product we might have bought. No funds earned by FFXI were explicitly allocated to FFXIV. They all go into SE's coffers where it can be collectively spent with all of their other income.

I'm really tired of people making this argument, it simply isn't true for one thing, and it also creates a false implication that wasn't being worked on or developed in any way during that time. It was, and therefore any assertion that we were directly funding FFXIV instead of FFXI

It's all irrelevant anyway, because SE has the right to spend its profits on whatever they want to spend them on, Are we supposed to hate or resent SE purely because they wanted to build a new MMO? FFXI was largely a successful project, why would they NOT want to try another project like it in the future?

From the beginning they had only planned to develop FFXI for a certain length of time, and even with the existence of FFXIV, they ended up developing for it far, far, far longer than that. So the truth is, far more of the dollars we spent benefitted the game we were playing than SE had originally planned for. We should be happy about this, not resentful.

Ultimately, I fail to see the point in making the observation you made, even if it were accurate.

[Pixela]

The only context in which this is true is that htey never would have made FFXIV Online if they didn't make FFXI Online.

As I wrote in my previous post, Only the money actually budgeted for FFXI is obligated to be spent on FFXI. The rest is profit, and SE can spend their profit however they desire. Even moving developers around doesn't change this fact. We didn't fund FFXIV with FFXI more than we funded it with any other Square-Enix product we might have bought. No funds earned by FFXI were explicitly allocated to FFXIV. They all go into SE's coffers where it can be collectively spent with all of their other income.

I'm really tired of people making this argument, it simply isn't true for one thing, and it also creates a false implication that wasn't being worked on or developed in any way during that time. It was, and therefore any assertion that we were directly funding FFXIV instead of FFXI

It's all irrelevant anyway, because SE has the right to spend its profits on whatever they want to spend them on, Are we supposed to hate or resent SE purely because they wanted to build a new MMO? FFXI was largely a successful project, why would they NOT want to try another project like it in the future?

From the beginning they had only planned to develop FFXI for a certain length of time, and even with the existence of FFXIV, they ended up developing for it far, far, far longer than that. So the truth is, far more of the dollars we spent benefitted the game we were playing than SE had originally planned for. We should be happy about this, not resentful.

Ultimately, I fail to see the point in making the observation you made, even if it were accurate.

They have stated in interviews (and even in the recent we-are-vandiel developer showcase things they have been putting out) that they were deciding on an engine remake for ff11 15+ years ago or make a brand new game because it would cost a similar amount, they decided to make a brand new game and that is why ff14 exists (it was even called "project rapture", the intention was clear). They have also stated that the only reason the ff14 races look the way they do (when it makes zero sense) is to make transitioning of their current players on 11 over easier, ff14 was made for ff11 players by ff11 developers and we got massive content droughts for it to be made "for us". The problem is, they got caught up in making a game without the restrictions FFXI forced upon them and made a game that had little in common with ff11 at all.

When the game completely flopped because 11 players hated it, they had to make a decision. Make it more like ff11 to try appeal to us or gamble and try appeal to the mainstream audience and basically duplicate wow with a FF skin, they (he) decided to do that. Ultimately that was a fantastic choice because it allowed him to also copy the cash shop model wow employs and again the new playerbase happily accepted it and threw money at them for mounts, outfits and hats, something we never would.

So yes we did pay for it, our developers were put onto ff14 because the initial idea was "it was for us". FF14 would not exist at all if not for FF11, ARR would not exist if not for ff11 players bankrolling the developers to work on it for years at not cost to 14 players, and we got barely anything during that time because of it.

Don't get me wrong, in the long run it worked out "ok" because now the online division has more money and isn't as reliant on ff11 as they used to be, but this is still how ARR came into being. It also means they didn't "modernize" ff11 (shudder) so it worked out fine, Square are stronger with 2 games than 1 because in the most part the games appeal to different kinds of players. Also of the ff14 players that come to 11, they usually still play ff14 and are only playing 11 because they are burned out or on a break, and as such it's better to play a game where the money still goes back to Square than be playing ESO or whatever else.

However yes, FF14 players now asking for them to get a 50% off deal kind of sticks in the craw a bit given the history of their games creation.

I could go off on why ff14 is so awful to most ff11 players but really it doesn't matter because Square don't need us to play ff14 anymore, and indeed it's a good thing to have two different games as they do that appeal to different kinds of players. Square are happy to fund both games because BOTH games make a profit for the online division together, and losing one game would mean they make less money as "the online division". Losing ff11 would not drive those players onto 14, they would lose almost all of them.

Square does not need to lose money, the last thing they want is to have less profits showing up on their quarterly shareholder presentations either.

[Tharly]

Sure it does.

How so? Everything you say is predicated on a discounted sub from buying multiple services taking money away from ffxi. It would not necessarily. If it increased subs that wouldn't be active otherwise it could conceivably result in more being budgeted. We have no idea how/why they budget what they do. You writing more to justify your position will not change that.

Which way would it go? I have no idea. I do know that 12 + 6 is more than 12 and shouldn't require any more investment to implement. It could be a win for everyone involved.

[Alhanelem]

How so? Everything you say is predicated on a discounted sub from buying multiple services taking money away from ffxi. It would not necessarily. If it increased subs that wouldn't be active otherwise it could conceivably result in more being budgeted. We have no idea how/why they budget what they do. You writing more to justify your position will not change that.

Which way would it go? I have no idea. I do know that 12 + 6 is more than 12 and shouldn't require any more investment to implement. It could be a win for everyone involved.
The crux of it is, it costs SE little to try something like this. If most of the people who take advantage of the offer are already subbed to both, maybe it won't help them and they'll end the offer. But if it adds enough subs to offset that, then it was worth doing and they can keep it and/or do it again for a later promotion.


There is basically no reason not to do it.


I could go off on why ff14 is so awful to most ff11 players but really it doesn't matter because Square don't need us to play ff14 anymore, This is an assumption with no basis. I play both, I love both. I know other people that do. Then there's the players that stopped playing FFXI to play FFXIV, who clearly don't think it's "awful" or they wouldn't have done that. You thinking FFXIV is awful does not mean you represent all or most FFXI players on the subject.

[Pixela]

The only reason anyone suggests this at all is because they previously did it, and they only previously did it because ff14 was a total disaster and they were desperate to try get any ff11 players to move to it. It will never be done again, on this game or any of their others because ff14 doesn't need more players and ff11 will shut down if it loses its core players.

Also, they are totally separate projects unlike wow/wowclass


This is an assumption with no basis. I play both, I love both. I know other people that do. Then there's the players that stopped playing FFXI to play FFXIV, who clearly don't think it's "awful" or they wouldn't have done that. You thinking FFXIV is awful does not mean you represent all or most FFXI players on the subject.

Obviously some do, I'm talking about in the majority of both playerbases. These games are chalk and cheese.

I wrote a big list of reasons why most 11 players do not like 14 but it will just annoy people so I edited it out. Lets just say there are real reasons most 11 players have tried 14 and come back to 11. There is almost nobody I have met that has not played 14 on 11.

This is not an untapped market, we don't like it.

[Alhanelem]

Obviously some do, I'm talking about in the majority of both playerbases. These games are chalk and cheese.
But that's just your opinion, it's not a fact, and it's not provable either. That list is also your opinion, not a fact. You obviously haven't asked FF11 players who now play 14, your sample is entirely biased. The reality is there are plenty of people in both camps. But there are both people in the 14 camp who have nostalgia for XI and people who never played it who are curious about it. And that's the whole point of this proposal. And it is prmiarly those people whom this benefits. You need to look past your own hatred and resentment to realize that not everyone feels the same way as you.

I get that you wouldn't use it, and you have friends who you know wouldn't use it. But you and your friends do not in any way represent all FFXI and FFXIV players. There absolutely IS an untapped market here.

Before FFXIV was even conceived, SE only had plans to run the game for so long. But I see you blaming FFXIV for FFXI's state, while insisting that "most XI people don't like it." If that were true, little to no one would have left the game for it. But people did. So which one is it?

Get over it and stop standing in the way of more potential players, both new and returning.

[Pixela]

I have literally never talked to a ff11 player that has not played ff14, the number of people I meet and talked to that like ff14 is very small.

They are so different it's hard to find people that like both, they do exist but they are a minority

Regardless, you and I are both well aware how little attention the developers give to this forum. What we say here is just for us, it has no greater impact on anything.

[Voidstorm]

I've played XIV beta. never played it since it went live nor have I played since it was killed and ARR was released.

[Alhanelem]

I have literally never talked to a ff11 player that has not played ff14, the number of people I meet and talked to that like ff14 is very small.

They are so different it's hard to find people that like both, they do exist but they are a minority

Regardless, you and I are both well aware how little attention the developers give to this forum. What we say here is just for us, it has no greater impact on anything.

My experience has been the exact opposite of yours. You say you've talked to almost no one that played both and like 14. Meanwhile, I have talked to many people in both games, quite a few of which actually do play both, and most are quite positive. So I entirely disagree with your notion that these people are a minority.

Meanwhile a good chunk of my main linkshell is now playing FFXIV.


I've played XIV beta. never played it since it went live nor have I played since it was killed and ARR was released. They were two almost entirely different things. Original FFXIV was basically universally panned, even most of the people who didn't dislike it still think ARR and beyond was better.

1.0x is like taking any original field area from FFXI, multiplying its size by a factor of like 10 by copying and pasting, all the while keeping the same number of enemies / objects.

[Pixela]

The thing about our your argument is you're asking the company to take a massive risk, based off nothing but your opinion.

Mine is no risk, because we stay as we are. Profitable.

[Alhanelem]

The thing about our your argument is you're asking the company to take a massive risk, based off nothing but your opinion.Offering a discount on a shared subscription does not have any real risk. If no one only subscribed to one game currently takes advantage of it, SE is only out the cost of implementation (which should be relatively insignificant against the current profits of both games). If people do use it but it's mostly people who are already subscribed to both anyway (admittedly possible), then they're still only out a relatively small sum and they can just end the promotion. On the other hand, if it gets some people who don't currently play both to play both (and this suggestion has come up enough that there are at least some players in this position), then it is a success and SE makes a little extra money.

The worst case scenario is no one takes advantage of it (or only the wrong people do it) and it incurs a modest cost to SE. Then it's just a failed experiment and they can end it as easily as they started it.

But frankly, I don't think it would be a failiure. They've already done this once before and it was helpful. There's no reason it couldn't help a second time.

[Pixela]

Knowing you, as I do (I've testing you so many times) and knowing how incredibly defensive you always get when anyone says anything about 14 in any way. I think your reason for suggesting this is actually that you want to try encourage 11 players play 14 (which is why they originally tried to do it in the first place, and it failed or they would not of stopped it). This isn't about helping 11 at all, because you are well aware this would be an incredibly stupid idea that would lose the developers a lot of money.

[Alhanelem]

Knowing you, as I do (I've testing you so many times) and knowing how incredibly defensive you always get when anyone says anything about 14 in any way. I think your reason for suggesting this is actually that you want to try encourage 11 players play 14 (which is why they originally tried to do it in the first place, and it failed or they would not of stopped it). This isn't about helping 11 at all, because you are well aware this would be an incredibly stupid idea that would lose the developers a lot of money.
You don't know me at all, and no, that's not my motivation. But what does it matter, SE makes more money either way. Resorting to personal attacks to respond to my argument just proves that you have no argument yourself. This would not "lose the developers lots of money." You clearly have no idea what a promotion is or how they work. I just explained to you how it MAKES them money, and it really isn't rocket science.


X) You have some people who subscribe only to game A.
Y) You have some people who subscribe only to game B.
Z) You have some people who subscribe to both A and B.


With a promotion like this, some portion of people in group X and group Y are now subscribed to both games, gaining SE whatever that discounted price is (let's just say 9.99 for example purposes). This is extra money in SE's pocket that they would not have had if they didn't do the promotion.
The only way this loses money for the game company is if more than 3/4 of the people taking advantage of the promotion are people in group Z (because these subs aren't extra subs and they are price reduced). And that's really not very likely to be the case at all. Even th en, they aren't losing that much money. If the promotion later ends and they retain any of these players afterward, then the promotion is a success.

And no, the original dual sub promotion was not a failure, it was planned to be temporary from the get go. That only makes it more of a success as long as any of the people who used it remained dual subscribers after the end of the promotion.

Seriously. I play both of these games and I love them both. You have no evidence and know nothing about me to suggest that my motivation in pushing an idea like this is to pull people away from FFXI. It's pretty incredible and stupid considering how much you all accuse me of white knighting the FFXI devs. Ultimately you created this response because you have no other actual counterargument.


Why would I waste 8000+ posts of my existence talking about this game over the last 15+ years this forum has been around if I wanted people to not play it? Your accusation has no basis in logic or reality. And I don't "get incredibly defensive" if anyone says anything bat about 14. All I do is state the reality of things. You are free to like or not like whatever you want. The only reason I have any problem with your comments is becuase you're using weasel words to imply the group of people you believe share your opinion is larger than it actually is. It's entirely true that some people who play XI hate XIV and/or resent its existence. It's also true that some XIV players hate XI. But there are also people who aren't in either camp, and you're trying to pretend that these people don't exist. You can say whatever bad about any game you want, as long as it's a factually true statement, you won't get any argument from me.

I've spent hours in the FFXIV Novice Network talking about FFXI, defending *it* against people who think it's "bad game design" for different fights to require different team comps (among many other things). Why would I defend FFXI if I want to take players away from it?

Want me to say something bad about FFXIV? here we go! I hate summoner in it. It was my main from the start, and despite that it was butchered from the start compared to XI, I found it fun in its own way. Then each expansion, they kept changing it and making it "easier" but at the same time making it worse for veterans. Now in the current expansion, pets are basically gone from the game, just floating damage bonuses. And in PvP, Summoner doesn't summon anything at all (imagine that). I ended up switching to dancer after so many years, and even that isn't anything like FFXI's dancer (but still fun in a different way).

Just because I have positive things to say about either game doesn't mean I don't have gripes. You all treat me as some shining white knight that will defend anything but the reality is I have just as many problems with the games as you do. and I am absolutely sick of your baseless accusations and assumptions.

[Pixela]

I don't think some people understand how Square Enix funds these games.

FFXI and FFXIV both have budgets allocated to them 1-3 years in advance, all the money these games bring in go directly to the mother company and the developers never see any of it, outside of the +-50% of the projected revenue in advance. If 14 creates a certain mount, and it goes viral and sells 50k copies on the cash shop...they don't get that money directly and in-fact could see zero benefit from it at all unless at the next budget allocation meeting 2 years from now they can guarantee they can replicate it.

FFXI and FFXIV both relish stability.

If they dropped the amount of money people pay for their services, the revenue would instantly drop and show up on the revenue reports the finance dept use to allocate budgets. This is suicidal, because these games are not run in long-term mindsets and are actually run with short term mindsets (1-3 years) because the game only lives if they can convince the finance dept the game is still viable and to allocate another budget lump sum at these meetings.

This is like demanding you get paid twice as much so you work twice as hard over the next year to increase revenue for the company, unless the boss has a long-term outlook they will just see you cost twice as much now and fire you.

The reason FF14 cannot add new servers and ceased sales of digital copies for a while after the streamer thing, was to stop the game growing intentionally. The reason for this is, they don't have the money to add new servers to meet increased demand above and beyond projections. If they did pay for new servers, you would get less content patches becaause they have a set budget that is supposed to last of the next 2-3 years.

The same would happen to FFXI too. If 1 million people bought FFXI today and tried to play they would be screwed, they would not be able to pay for all the new servers. They do not have the money, they would literally have to refund most of these people or cease sales of digital copies.

Now you could say, just ask the finance dept for a cash boost. The issue is, a) this is a Japanese company with a strict finance dept that have been burned before and b) MMORPG players are incredibly fickle and all these new players could quit a few months later and then they would of spent all this money and see little revenue (then having to perform merges after). As such, the finance dept is incredibly unwilling to give them money to promote mass growth.

They will not be doing this, and I'm glad they won't.

The game needs stability, not stupid ideas that are a massive gamble.

[Tharly]

And if it increases revenue from people on the fence more than it loses from people already subscribed to both? You cannot admit it for some reason, but it could end up working both ways. Nothing you can say can change that.

Do you have some inside SE information that isn't public? Seems to me the surplus from 14 right now could cover any realistically conceivable losses for the short term on a limited time gamble should it turn out that way.

So 14 didn't stop sales for long, why? By your thoughts they cannot respond to demand spikes within 1-3 years. Yet they did. All your arguments require SE to think only the way you think and respond only the way you respond. It appears to not be the case.

By your own standards then growth is impossible unless its accounted for 1-3 years ahead of time. From the best of my knowledge, player numbers for 11 have been stable for awhile now and something to help boost those numbers absent major new content should be welcomed.

[Alhanelem]

And if it increases revenue from people on the fence more than it loses from people already subscribed to both? You cannot admit it for some reason, but it could end up working both ways. Nothing you can say can change that.

Do you have some inside SE information that isn't public? Seems to me the surplus from 14 right now could cover any realistically conceivable losses for the short term on a limited time gamble should it turn out that way.

So 14 didn't stop sales for long, why? By your thoughts they cannot respond to demand spikes within 1-3 years. Yet they did. All your arguments require SE to think only the way you think and respond only the way you respond. It appears to not be the case.

By your own standards then growth is impossible unless its accounted for 1-3 years ahead of time. From the best of my knowledge, player numbers for 11 have been stable for awhile now and something to help boost though numbers absent major new content should be welcomed.

I'm pretty convinced he's just speaking out against the idea either purely due to his hatred for FFXIV or because I actually like an idea someone posted. He's made his bias against me abundantly clear.

[Tharly]

There will be no convincing him otherwise, no matter what his reasons. He will never accept a viewpoint other than his own on this subject.

[Pixela]

So 14 didn't stop sales for long, why? By your thoughts they cannot respond to demand spikes within 1-3 years. Yet they did. All your arguments require SE to think only the way you think and respond only the way you respond. It appears to not be the case.

Neither game has excess money and all the money they have been given years ago is accounted for, ff14 cannot meet increased demand so literally had to stop people buying the game (you cannot run out of digital codes, this is impossible and the only reason they did so was to stop people buying the game). They even chose to close data centers over just..adding new servers as wow did continually to encourage growth. Blizzard wanted wow to get big, so they kept adding more and more servers to keep encouraging growth. Square Enix (not the developers, it's not upto them) do not want this and will never do this (outside of eventually retooling some JP servers in to oceanic servers maybe), they want the game to stay as it is now.

What the players and developers want and what the people at Square that pay the bills want are two different things.

If the ff14 players got every single wow player to quit and want to move to ffxiv tomorow, they would again stop digital sales and still add no new servers, they would probably close all the data centers next.

These game are not run like western games where they embrace boom and bust, they are happy with them as they are and do not want mass growth at all costs.

Anyway we have argued this entire suggestion out, not like it matters cause nobody at square reads it and barely any of the players do either.

[Teraniku]

Well with the troubles now happening over at Activision / Blizzard, It may be WoW's days are finally numbered.

[Alhanelem]

Well with the troubles now happening over at Activision / Blizzard, It may be WoW's days are finally numbered.
Drama can't kill WoW. It's certainly good for FFXIV though. But FFXI could also potentially benefit a little bit if this idea was a thing

[Immortal]

Unfortunately the company themselves are working against XI's interest. SE has no interest in promoting this game or supporting it anymore than the bare minimum. The sad truth is that no XIV player is going to touch this game, most certainly not long-term. We live in a vapid world these days, SE needs to get rid of most of the spaghetti code and slow global cooldowns and loading times, clunky UI and slightly outdated graphics along with that archaic login system. People just look at the login process and older style graphics and are immediately turned off. XIV is now their cash cow and they couldn't care less about XI outside of obligation to keep it running. It really infuriates me but it is the reality and at this point they've shown they do not care, I barely have hopes for the 2022 announcement, probably some meteor to crash into Vanadiel to ferry our souls to Eorzea. I can't believe they won't invest in both games so they can have two successful MMO's with different play styles. They would make more money in the long run than lose, with more options to benefit via add-ons like wardrobes, race changes, etc. One can only imagine what goes on in the head of those execs at SE.

Truthfully people saying that they won't play this game due to the sub cost, are generally liars. They just don't want to play it, who thinks 12 dollars is a lot of money in 2021? A sub decrease if you have XI or XIV sub, won't matter much with the underlying issues we have with this company.

[Pixela]

People have this child like mindset of products, we are creatures of habit. WoW will still be the biggest mmorpg 10 years from now, and neither ff11 or ff14 has seen significant benefit from the anger about blizzard. Most WoW players won't leave WoW, of those that do it won't last long.

Streamers have far less impact on players than people think they do, and not only that but WoW players are angry with ff14 for causing this in the first place. Ff14 is the last game they would move to.

[Pixela]

Unfortunately the company themselves are working against XI's interest. SE has no interest in promoting this game or supporting it anymore than the bare minimum. The sad truth is that no XIV player is going to touch this game, most certainly not long-term. We live in a vapid world these days, SE needs to get rid of most of the spaghetti code and slow global cooldowns and loading times, clunky UI and slightly outdated graphics along with that archaic login system. People just look at the login process and older style graphics and are immediately turned off. XIV is now their cash cow and they couldn't care less about XI outside of obligation to keep it running. It really infuriates me but it is the reality and at this point they've shown they do not care, I barely have hopes for the 2022 announcement, probably some meteor to crash into Vanadiel to ferry our souls to Eorzea. I can't believe they won't invest in both games so they can have two successful MMO's with different play styles. They would make more money in the long run than lose, with more options to benefit via add-ons like wardrobes, race changes, etc. One can only imagine what goes on in the head of those execs at SE.

Truthfully people saying that they won't play this game due to the sub cost, are generally liars. They just don't want to play it, who thinks 12 dollars is a lot of money in 2021? A sub decrease if you have XI or XIV sub, won't matter much with the underlying issues we have with this company.

XI exists for XI players, its here as a service to us. It's an old school mmorpg with appeal to a niche of hardcore mmorpg players, if they were to alter XI to appeal to XIV players enmasse it would be crap and none of us would want to play it anymore.

Why do people lust after mainstream audiences when you don't like mainstream products?

[Alhanelem]

XI exists for XI players, its here as a service to us. It's an old school mmorpg with appeal to a niche of hardcore mmorpg players, if they were to alter XI to appeal to XIV players enmasse it would be crap and none of us would want to play it anymore.

Why do people lust after mainstream audiences when you don't like mainstream products?
The only thing working against FFXI is its age and SE's level of commitment.

My biggest gripe about FFXIV was and is the ongoing homgenization of the jobs (i.e. there's really just four: tank healer melee ranged, within each category there's little reason to play one job over another) But even today FFXI still has plenty going for it as does FFXIV (and some others out there). you underestimate the ability of both non-current players to enjoy elements FFXI and that of FFXI players to enjoy elements of any other games out there. You may be hard locked on FFXI as the only good MMO ever made and everything that came after is crap, but not every current player feels that way.

[Pixela]

The only thing working against FFXI is its age and SE's level of comittment.

Not at all, it's doing great for what it is. People have stupid expectations in modern day is all.

[Alhanelem]

Not at all, it's doing great for what it is. People have stupid expectations in modern day is all.The message here wasn't t hat FFXI i sn't d oing well. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be here. That doesn't mean it doesn't have issues either though. But the message was those are the reasons FFXI isn't "mainstream", it isn't so much because of it being "old school' or "niche appeal."

Like I mentioned before, I have conversations about it on a regular basis in FFXI. Some people aren't even aware it's still running. Others express interest. Age is one of the primary deterring factors, people just don't want to play old games that badly unless they're like all time classics or something.

[Pixela]

The age of the game is part of the reason it's good, it didn't add all the zoomer trash mainstream players love these days. If they ever do remake ffxi, they will add all that garbage into it.

14 players can enjoy their 8 year old mmorpg with overpriced baseball caps and whale mounts in the cash shop, while playing the latest Nier Automata or PSO dungeon in a FF game. They can enjoy the ridiculous over the top blinding skill effects that take up 99% of the screen every time you press 1 and being in fear of interacting with the community because it's full of twitter potato people offended by everything.

I watched the latest 14 trailer a few days ago and the zoomers were like woooow look at all those big swords when he does a skill!!, that's so cool! and I was thinking how stupid it looked to have all that ridiculous over the top nonsense every time you use a skill. Then keeping in mind everyone else in the party is doing those over the top nonsense effects too, and all the time you have to dance out of red circles for the whole dungeon like you're playing a dancing simulator.

Yeah, let those people stay over there please. I love "old game" filter, it's working great.

FF14 players who can appreciate FFXI as it is are playing, the rest...no thanks

[Immortal]

XI exists for XI players, its here as a service to us. It's an old school mmorpg with appeal to a niche of hardcore mmorpg players, if they were to alter XI to appeal to XIV players enmasse it would be crap and none of us would want to play it anymore.

Why do people lust after mainstream audiences when you don't like mainstream products?

I don't want them to change the core of the game, but if they revamped the graphics and got rid of the terrible cooldown on everything where you are spamming to do something and it feels very clunky, it would benefit the game. More people playing the game is more years this game will be alive, I don't want it to do die so we need a middle ground.

[Stompa]

Not at all, it's doing great for what it is. People have stupid expectations in modern day is all.

I compare it to a Bus Journey. You are going home after work, the bus stop outside your home is halfway between the bus stop outside your place of work, and the bus station terminus final stop.

A sensible person would get off the bus near their home, half way along the bus journey. A not-sensible person would ride the bus to the bus station, just because they want to go "all the way" and have the maximum possible bus journey. The sensible person spends the night in their comfortable home, the not-sensible person spends the night hanging around the bus station.

Just because we can go "all the way" and make games that are louder and more visually overwhelming than the older games were, doesn't mean that the new games are better than older games that were back down the road. The new games are the final bus stop, the bus station terminus. Who would want to live there? It is better to get off the bus near your home, the place where you feel comfortable and happy.

It is a modern psychopathy, the notion that that nothing is beautiful unless it has been pushed to the maximum limits, the idea that only the latest shiniest toy is worth playing with. It is a form of cultural madness.

[Alhanelem]

The age of the game is part of the reason it's good, it didn't add all the zoomer trash mainstream players love these days. If they ever do remake ffxi, they will add all that garbage into it.

14 players can enjoy their 8 year old mmorpg with overpriced baseball caps and whale mounts in the cash shop, while playing the latest Nier Automata or PSO dungeon in a FF game. They can enjoy the ridiculous over the top blinding skill effects that take up 99% of the screen every time you press 1 and being in fear of interacting with the community because it's full of twitter potato people offended by everything.

I watched the latest 14 trailer a few days ago and the zoomers were like woooow look at all those big swords when he does a skill!!, that's so cool! and I was thinking how stupid it looked to have all that ridiculous over the top nonsense every time you use a skill. Then keeping in mind everyone else in the party is doing those over the top nonsense effects too, and all the time you have to dance out of red circles for the whole dungeon like you're playing a dancing simulator.

Yeah, let those people stay over there please. I love "old game" filter, it's working great.

FF14 players who can appreciate FFXI as it is are playing, the rest...no thanks
You really need to get it out of your head that there's any way an FFXIV player could like or want to play FFXI. Just because they're enjoying their fanservice hotbar MMO doesn't mean they can't enjoy something different. I know because I'm one of those people.

The game needs at least the occasional new player to be sustainable. This idea is simply one way to help find and secure those people.

You might hate the idea of some younger person playing "your" MMO, but again, for the 45th time, you do not speak for the community.



It is a modern psychopathy, the notion that that nothing is beautiful unless it has been pushed to the maximum limits, the idea that only the latest shiniest toy is worth playing with. It is a form of cultural madness. The thing is, the people who are wowed by the stuff that comes out today will be saying the same thing you just said about whatever comes out 15-20 years from now. There's nothing wrong with today's generation liking today's things. (There's also nothing wrong with today's generation liking yesterday's things, unlike what Pixela seems to think)