The Myth of Mining

[InfamousDS]

Who believes in it? If you've never heard it....

Courtesy CTownWoody of FFXIclopedia:


The Myth of Mining: Mining does not save you gil when crafting. Mining makes you gil by selling what you mine; crafting makes you gil by increasing the value of the ingredients. If you were to mine up 10k worth of ingredients and sell them for 6k, you did NOT save 6k by mining; you lost 4k by crafting what you could have sold.

Whereas I feel this:
By mining, you did not spend 10k, therefore you did NOT lose 4k. In terms of tangibility, I'd rather lose the imaginary 4k over the real 4k any day.

Profit:
Market Value - Cost of Labor/Materials
In the mining set-up, you spent 0 on materials (in the original myth, realistically there is pickaxe costs and crystal costs). Therefore, 6k = 6k - 0.
In the buying example, -4k = 6k - 10k (using the above).

This forum post comes from a talk segment of a guide I've written on the wiki, where I debunk the myth. However, my counter-argument presents valid points. I'd like player opinion on this, as wiki talk pages are not meant for extensive discussions. Thanks.

[rog]

I understand what opportunity cost is, so no.

[wish12oz]

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

[Kagato]

Time is money.

Mining is a waste of time, so it's a waste of money.

[rog]

Time is money.

If you spend a few hours mining 10k-50k worth of ores when you could just guild-buy and craft stuff immediately, chances are you'll make more.

Iron Ingots, for example, take 4 Iron ores. I've gone mining in some places that have the highest drop rates of Iron ores and managed to get 12 ores in 30 minutes. Thats 6 Ingots an hour, a full stack in 2 hours. So, therefore, depending on server prices, thats 40k straight profit in 2 hours for a single stack.

or...

I camp the guild and buy/craft and make several stacks every in-game day, making only about half the money because I buy all my materials, but I make MORE stacks and by selling more in a shorter time, I make more overall in the same time I would have made if I just ran around mining stuff.

Or...

I farm beastmen blood and get the same profits in half the time. :/




Smithing really sucks, doesn't it? :/ That is not even the point. After you mine, your time is already gone. However at that point you have a choice. You could either sell the materials for 10k, or craft them, and sell the result for 6k. If you choose to do anything with the ores that does not result in the highest possible profit, you lost the difference between what you got out of it, and would you could have got out of it.

And yes, you do in fact lose it. Before synthing the ores, you have 10k worth of assets. After synthing them, you have 6k worth of assets. That is the definition of a loss.

[InfamousDS]

@Kagato

I see the myth as an affront to farming actually, as the same logic can be applied. Of course, Woody isn't known for his love of farming anything but Rams, so he could easily apply the same logic. The biggest disparity between the 2 realms is that ores are incredibly expensive compared to similar-level items in other fields. I mine for skill-ups because I can avoid counter-campers at the guild, or I used to before I started a college degree. I just don't want HELM to be ignored entirely, as that is what the original myth suggests you should do unless you are a profiteer.

[rog]

I just don't want HELM to be ignored entirely, as that is what the original myth suggests you should do unless you are a profiteer.
No it does not. If you can make more money per unit time by mining, then you should do that. If you can make more by doing something else, you should do that.

If you would be better off doing X instead of Y, then you should not do Y.

Take an economics class, this is not hard stuff.

[InfamousDS]

No it does not. If you can make more money per unit time by mining, then you should do that. If you can make more by doing something else, you should do that.

If you would be better off doing X instead of Y, then you should not do Y.

Take an economics class, this is not hard stuff.

Funny you should say that, I asked my economics professor this question, as well as 2 business professors and an accounting post-grad. They all say that the only loss is time and time doesn't have any qualitative cost unless one is imposed upon it. Like I said originally, the counter-arguments are valid.

[rog]

Funny you should say that, I asked my economics professor this question, as well as 2 business professors and an accounting post-grad. They all say that the only loss is time and time doesn't have any qualitative cost unless one is imposed upon it. Like I said originally, the counter-arguments are valid.You asked the wrong question then. If you do something, and then your net value is lower than it was before you did it, you lost money.

The entire proccess is indeed profitable, but it is not as profitable as it could be, and the last step is simply retarded.

[InfamousDS]

I presented the argument exactly as it presented to you rog. I tried very hard to avoid personal bias, one of my friends (not expecting a job in such fields and thus not in classes about them) called labeling the potential loss as "greed, if they cared that much about money, they wouldn't pay to play".

[rog]

I fail to see a point to your last post.

[InfamousDS]

I fail to see a point to your last post.

Really? I start it out by saying I told them the same myth, with the same argument I have and (not posted on here, but I should have) the counter-argument. They said what I related. The friend's quote may have been unneeded, true, but I thought it related the difference between knowing a field and using acquired experiences.

[rog]

oh. No, i meant you asked those professors the wrong question.
I asked my economics professor this question, as well as 2 business professors and an accounting post-grad. Was responding to that.

[Meyi]

And yes, you do in fact lose it. Before synthing the ores, you have 10k worth of assets. After synthing them, you have 6k worth of assets. That is the definition of a loss.

Unless you get skill ups, because as we all know, skill ups are priceless.

[rog]

Unless you get skill ups, because as we all know, skill ups are priceless.Right, my bad.

[Coephoros]

If you do something, and then your net value is lower than it was before you did it, you lost money.


This. Thread closed.

And why does this topic always seem to come up seemingly every year?

[Flunklesnarkin]

Don't make stuff that you will lose gil on if you bought mat's

or don't synth anything you can't farm and make a decent amount of gil an hour......

mining doesn't seem like it would ever be a worthwhile thing to do.. the amount of time it takes to get from mining points.. and the useless stuff you mine up

you could be farming crystal clusters in sky and selling them or synthing other in demand items that people use for a profit

sheep leather or echo drops , holy waters w/e.. or even just farming up cruor...

mining is the worst way to make money >_<


If you are trying to skill up smithing .. you'd be better off making gil and buying ores from the guild shop / regular merchants than trying to mine up the mat's you need.

[rog]

mining doesn't seem like it would ever be a worthwhile thing to do..
It was in the past. Making gil was not as easy as it is today, and ores were worth a lot more. Today though, i am not sure why anyone would waste their time.

[Sagian]

That is not even the point. After you mine, your time is already gone. However at that point you have a choice. You could either sell the materials for 10k, or craft them, and sell the result for 6k. If you choose to do anything with the ores that does not result in the highest possible profit, you lost the difference between what you got out of it, and would you could have got out of it.

And yes, you do in fact lose it. Before synthing the ores, you have 10k worth of assets. After synthing them, you have 6k worth of assets. That is the definition of a loss.

Well, you're kida-sorta right, but not really.

The guide from which this is taken is to demonstrate a skill-up path. If you just sell the materials, you get no skill-ups. By mining your own materials, you get both the skill-ups and the proceeds from the sales.

If not taken in the context of leveling your skills, I agree with you.

[Krisan]

It was in the past. Making gil was not as easy as it is today, and ores were worth a lot more. Today though, i am not sure why anyone would waste their time.
Yeah, I recall making a million (or more) weekly back in the old days, and that was just from spending an hour or so a day mining. Ore used to be worth insane amounts of money back then, though I guess everything was kinda overpriced back then.. These days? Dunno, haven't tried mining in years. (I suspect it's crap for profit now, though.)

[rog]

Well, you're kida-sorta right, but not really.

The guide from which this is taken is to demonstrate a skill-up path. If you just sell the materials, you get no skill-ups. By mining your own materials, you get both the skill-ups and the proceeds from the sales.

If not taken in the context of leveling your skills, I agree with you.
Does not matter. Unless you can make more money mining than by doing anything else, you are still better off doing something else to make gil, then buying the ores.

[Sagian]

Does not matter. Unless you can make more money mining than by doing anything else, you are still better off doing something else to make gil, then buying the ores.

I agree with that also, but the condition "Unless you can make more money mining than by doing anything else" means that the original assertion doesn't apply when you can't, so it's not a 'myth'. It's just that there are certain conditions where mining either 'is' or 'is not' the profitable thing to do.

[rog]

I agree with that also, but the condition "Unless you can make more money mining than by doing anything else" means that the original assertion doesn't apply when you can't, so it's not a 'myth'. It's just that there are certain conditions where mining either 'is' or 'is not' the profitable thing to do.
Sure, but that condition applies to everyone in 2011.

[Sagian]

Sure, but that condition applies to everyone in 2011.

No, it applies to everyone who can make more money doing something else. A relatively new player starting in smithing isn't going to have a way to make the gil to buy the ores.

The guide, which is a resource for new players, gives the false impression that it is never a good idea to mine and fails to take into account that most people are following the guide to level their smithing skill. In fact, it is those very people that need to mine... to acquire the materials... to acquire the skill-ups.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can figure out the most gil-efficient use of their time, and sometimes that means mining.

[Alkalinehoe]

No, it applies to everyone who can make more money doing something else. A relatively new player starting in smithing isn't going to have a way to make the gil to buy the ores.

The guide, which is a resource for new players, gives the false impression that it is never a good idea to mine and fails to take into account that most people are following the guide to level their smithing skill. In fact, it is those very people that need to mine... to acquire the materials... to acquire the skill-ups.

Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can figure out the most gil-efficient use of their time, and sometimes that means mining.

When I first started out I bought Copper Ores for like 4gil a piece from the Goldsmithing guild in Bastok and make Copper Ingots and sold those for 6k/stack. It was really good money for a new person, and there was a near endless supply of dirt cheap ores.

Crafting is almost never profitable for anyone just starting out in the game. You generally don't hit money making recipes until you are nearing 100 so you can have a better chance to HQ/Higher skilled Recipes/Less chance to break. And that was back before Abyssea where Khroma Ores were worth way more than 5k... Now, it really isn't worth the investment at all for a new player.

Generally, mining isn't profitable anymore. Prices have dipped, the rare, expensive ores, like Khroma, can be found in chests in Abyssea and are often flooding the market. So what's the point of mining if all the ores can be bought for dirt cheap? It's better to just farm gil a more efficient way then use that gil to buy the mats. I really don't think you should advise a new player to take up a craft like Smithing off the bat.

Let's face it, crafting levels outside of Synergy use aren't very useful anymore.

[rog]

No, it applies to everyone who can make more money doing something else. A relatively new player starting in smithing isn't going to have a way to make the gil to buy the ores.
ie, everyone.


In fact, it is those very people that need to mine... to acquire the materials... to acquire the skill-ups.No. Mining is equally profitable for someone looking to skill up as it is for someone who is just going to sell the ores. Maybe back before we had 2 satchels, but really with 240 inventory, being able to craft in the field does not really increase profits much, since you don't need to leave very often anyway.

[Andylynn]

Funny you should say that, I asked my economics professor this question, as well as 2 business professors and an accounting post-grad. They all say that the only loss is time and time doesn't have any qualitative cost unless one is imposed upon it. Like I said originally, the counter-arguments are valid.

Appeal to authority (whether it be you claiming it's you, or that you 'asked an expert') is a logical fallacy, just fyi. :[

[Flunklesnarkin]

Time has value.. don't waste it mining

make gil elsewhere and buy ores

if you are a noob exp and sell crystals >>> buy ore

that is all ;o

[Wenslydale]

If the time you spent mining could have been spent farming something else for greater profit then yes, mining is a net loss.

This of course assumes an availability of material. If you're only option to acquire the materials is through mining, then of course mining wins.

Time is a commodity, and has a real value. It's just subjective and circumstantial. Everyone has an abundance of time to spend, and and how you choose to spend it is your prerogative.

For me, I always judged an hours worth of time by 4 stacks of ladybug wings. So, 36,000 gil. If I couldn't pull 36k an hour mining then it wasn't worth my time.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

And yes, you do in fact lose it. Before synthing the ores, you have 10k worth of assets. After synthing them, you have 6k worth of assets. That is the definition of a loss.

Actually, it's even worse than that, because you took time to synth, which you could have spent mining another 5k of items and then you would have had 15k.

[Ahana]

Appeal to authority (whether it be you claiming it's you, or that you 'asked an expert') is a logical fallacy, just fyi. :[

That was not appeal to authority - you clipped what they responded to, where the poster instructed them to "take an economics class".

[GlobalVariable]

Reasons to fetch your own mats if you comprehend opportunity cost:
when you can't otherwise get the item you need to finish the synth
when you can collapse inventory/AH slots by way of allowing you to sell through more total gil value per day. Ore doesn't stack for example, but ingot does...But this is also a fairly lousy example because ingots won't really sell fast enough to make you more total gil in the same time as selling the ore.


Those 2 conditions aren't common, so I avoid wasting my time mining. It is faster to buy what I need and make the money back elsewhere than to spend the hours to get the materials.

[Coephoros]

Technically, the situation you're describing isn't "opportunity cost". It's just selling junk for less than it cost you to make it. Opportunity cost describes, for example, the 5K in gil you didn't get selling materials because you invested it in skilling up. Using 5K of materials to synth materials that you sell for 3K is just a 2K loss.

[blowfin]

They all say that the only loss is time and time doesn't have any qualitative cost unless one is imposed upon it.

Thats the thing though, this game really does impose a cost on your time.

That cost is the money you could be making elsewhere.

[annewandering]

People complain crafting is dead. They complain because they cant find materials in AH. They complain that they cant find low and mid level gear in AH.
Could one reason be that people are told that crafting is a gil sink and its a waste of time? It is a waste if people dont even try.

[Sparthos]

As it stands, crafting is a waste of time.

The best gear all comes from Abyssea and gil is worthless. Short of wanting to sign stuff or make consumables, crafting really has no use in a world where everything drops completed from NMs.

To tell someone to start a craft would be to knowingly set them up for a huge timesink with no real reward.

[blowfin]

As it stands, crafting is a waste of time.

The best gear all comes from Abyssea and gil is worthless. Short of wanting to sign stuff or make consumables, crafting really has no use in a world where everything drops completed from NMs.

To tell someone to start a craft would be to knowingly set them up for a huge timesink with no real reward.

If you're talking about Synthesis in particular, and on it's own, then that's probably true short of riding the consumables market. I've never crafted "big ticket" items so i'm no authority in that area. Regardless, Synergy is well worth levelling at the moment and you really do want some supporting crafts levelled for it. The most obvious being alchemy so you can make your own fewell, which will cut your overhead immensely. Then you can pick and choose what other crafts you want depending on what you want to make.

[Flunklesnarkin]

As it stands, crafting is a waste of time.

The best gear all comes from Abyssea and gil is worthless. Short of wanting to sign stuff or make consumables, crafting really has no use in a world where everything drops completed from NMs.

To tell someone to start a craft would be to knowingly set them up for a huge timesink with no real reward.

Or it would be smart business ;o

crafted items may not always be useless.. great armor and stuff might come about by 99

It could be a smart investment to buck the trends and get your crafts up while its cheap...

I always listen to people complaining about how they should have bought this or that while it was cheap...

well here's you chance.. crafting is useless atm and everything is dirt cheap.. go level it

[AtrixWolfe]

I feel this does not put into perspective the rate at which you sell which is a sincerely important part of the equation. As you all know you have a maximum number of slots on the AH. And iirc most ores sell single not stack. And 4 ores make an ingot. Meaning potentially depending on differences in move rates, you can sell ingots at 48x the rate as you can sell ores. Making crafting them not a myth! Too one must take into consideration that the number of people who can mine < the number of people who can craft. Making your goods possibly more rare, and also they are more useful as they are used in more recipes, I hope this is some way debunks it. It also saves inventory space to be able to craft as you mine!

[Catsby]

Back when crafting was still relevant there were too many crafting items that were used in only 1 recipe. If you combine that with the fact that anybody could take up a trade skill and most crafted goods could be sold again and again on the AH it's no wonder why crafting turned out the way it did. If more of the items in the game had to go through more recipes to get to their end results, more items bound to players after being used and more salvage like turn in trials existed we would probably have a more exciting economy.

[Godofgods]

heh, ctown got his own thread made about him now lol. His point in The myth of mining is very true from that point of view.

If i spend 10k on picks and 4 hours mining, and i get say 15k worth of usable mets (off the wall numbers, not accurate) Technicly yes you will have made out without loseing any overall money.

However you could have used that 4h to do something more productive, and bring in 200k instead. Use that money to get your mets, and your left with a ton left over.

Same amount of time on each scenerio, but one yeilds a lot better results.

[Godofgods]

As it stands, crafting is a waste of time.

The best gear all comes from Abyssea and gil is worthless. Short of wanting to sign stuff or make consumables, crafting really has no use in a world where everything drops completed from NMs.

To tell someone to start a craft would be to knowingly set them up for a huge timesink with no real reward.

This game has always changed. Look how it was when it was first released to how it was a few years ago, to how it is now. It changes, and will continue to change. So one day in the future when crafting becomes better again, those that used this time to skill up, will be happy they did. Where as ppl with such a narrow view like you, will be left out.