Petition to change the way bans are handed out.

[Eaglestrike]

So today the only Twitch partner for FFXI, Ejin_Caitsith had 5 of his alts banned. And I'll start by saying yes he is a multiboxer, and yes that does include utilizing things against the TOS. Which is why this isn't to say he should never be banned or reprimanded for his actions.

HOWEVER, there are far more pressing issues for SE to clamp down on than a multi-boxer who does not engage in any sort of RMT (in fact gives away tons of gil). There's another thread on this forum that shows what Asura yells are like on a daily basis. There are hundreds of people AFK automated playing this game, should those not be the top priority for bans? There are people making thousands of dollars off this game via RMT, which always means using automated play, which hurts the global economy. Should these characters not be the primary targets for bans from the SE task force?

Ejin regularly has 150+ viewers on FFXI, and is an overwhelmingly positive force in the XI community, always speaking up about how great FFXI is, doing gil/gear giveaways, and just helping people all the time. How is he getting hit before dealing with the endless CP bots and RMT in the game? I know which group bothers my playing more, and it's certainly not Ejin.

[Leny]

Oh shit, he got bopped AGAIN? That's AWESOME. Come on, that's pretty funny.

[BST]

I just moved off of Asura, the level of cheating and rule breaking is epidemic.
Too bad I say, you break the rules, you risk getting punished.

Why can't they be an example and play one character, without using programs and exploits, that is being shown to an audience?
Giving away items and Gil that isn't fairly earnt mind you.

In my opinion they are beyond fair when it comes to punishment handed out.

[Eaglestrike]

I just moved off of Asura, the level of cheating and rule breaking is epidemic.
Too bad I say, you break the rules, you risk getting punished.

Why can't they be an example and play one character, without using programs and exploits, that is being shown to an audience?
Giving away items and Gil that isn't fairly earnt mind you.

In my opinion they are beyond fair when it comes to punishment handed out.

You show my point, though. You say you just left Asura because the cheating is so rampant you label it an "epidemic", Ejin isn't on Asura. Why can't SE work on fixing up Asura first? It sorely needs it.

[Pixela]

Don't give gil away, that literally looks like RMT because the payment part is done off game...

[Alhanelem]

Technically, if he earns twitch sub money and gives away gil, that's kinda sorta RMT.

I kid a bit here, but while I do agree SE's priorities need... adjusting, technically this guy was breaking the rules. But not really more than the degree to which nearly everyone who has ever streamed FFXI has.

// Not really advocating one way or the other here, just sounding off a bit.

[PandemoniumTylerDurden]

I don't want them to start showing favoritism because he has a small miniscule following on the game of which are already people playing mostly. He isn't drawing new players into this game at any noticeable level, and his whole content is centered around the very thing that makes the game anti-core of FFXI, automating full parties of mules. The game at it's core, is working together to complete goals. His promotion and tutorials on how to do events without other players, via not only just multiboxing, but automating of the entire process and for all intents and purposes botting entire parties
He is no better than any of the RMT selling JP automating JP point farming.

They warned him the last time they banned his main. You'd think that would have woken him up.

If he loves the game so much, and wants to promote it, do it properly. He has his 150 player following, why not do all the things he does with viewers and other players instead of his 1 friend who also multiboxes and himself on his 5 other automated alts?

He has zero excuses to even be doing the things he is doing.

[Kalimairo]

I don't want them to start showing favoritism because he has a small miniscule following on the game of which are already people playing mostly. He isn't drawing new players into this game at any noticeable level, and his whole content is centered around the very thing that makes the game anti-core of FFXI, automating full parties of mules. The game at it's core, is working together to complete goals. His promotion and tutorials on how to do events without other players, via not only just multiboxing, but automating of the entire process and for all intents and purposes botting entire parties
He is no better than any of the RMT selling JP automating JP point farming.

They warned him the last time they banned his main. You'd think that would have woken him up.

If he loves the game so much, and wants to promote it, do it properly. He has his 150 player following, why not do all the things he does with viewers and other players instead of his 1 friend who also multiboxes and himself on his 5 other automated alts?

He has zero excuses to even be doing the things he is doing.

ITS because he can have 5 max geared jobs to box :X, anyway joke's aside i think its deserving to be banned for automated actions, it made the game so much worse and SE keeps making new endgame extremely hard because of all that shit, i swear they need to bann gearswap, i mean u have the tools do it ingame macros, but not like this automated bs..

[alytez]

I don't want them to start showing favoritism because he has a small miniscule following on the game of which are already people playing mostly. He isn't drawing new players into this game at any noticeable level, and his whole content is centered around the very thing that makes the game anti-core of FFXI, automating full parties of mules. The game at it's core, is working together to complete goals. His promotion and tutorials on how to do events without other players, via not only just multiboxing, but automating of the entire process and for all intents and purposes botting entire parties
He is no better than any of the RMT selling JP automating JP point farming.

They warned him the last time they banned his main. You'd think that would have woken him up.

If he loves the game so much, and wants to promote it, do it properly. He has his 150 player following, why not do all the things he does with viewers and other players instead of his 1 friend who also multiboxes and himself on his 5 other automated alts?

He has zero excuses to even be doing the things he is doing.

I suppose you don't really watch his stream, but he does a lot of stuff with his viewers such as helping them through content, doing old stuff that people have long abandoned. I'm not even on his server or have ever played with him, but he has really motivated me with his streams and the welcoming community.

I would normally say "technically you cheat" but so do half of Asura lol There are SO many bots, so many multi-boxes on Asura it's hilarious... The inconsistency immediately ommits the "well you did break the rules" when EVERYONE is breaking the rules...

[Eaglestrike]

Yes, I'm not saying he shouldn't get reprimanded and potentially banned for what he uses, just that he should be pretty low on the priority list of who SE is going after for bans. All of the bots that are constantly farming on at least Asura is far more impactful on the general population than a random 6-boxer. Coming back to the game and having to blist a dozen names instantly because they blow up yell chat is absurd. Why aren't they putting in some effort to follow those spam yells, investigate which party they're linked with in a CP zone, and ban the whole group? It wouldn't be terribly difficult, and would have a far better impact on the game. If they ever solved those issues from coming up again, sure, go after the multiboxers and get us to a pure single boxing game, but let's get some proper priorities.

[Zehira]

As I have said many times, pointed out, also as Fujito has stated on the Japanese side of the forums a long time ago. No matter how hard you try. THAT the STF is and always will be... "non-negotiable."

Anyways, I am not sure what their plan is but I think would be nice to see more players to get out of Asura and stop them from moving to Asura. You can't fix the biggest corruption. ^^;

[Alhanelem]

I would normally say "technically you cheat" but so do half of Asura lol There are SO many bots, so many multi-boxes on Asura it's hilarious... The inconsistency immediately ommits the "well you did break the rules" when EVERYONE is breaking the rules...

It's because he was doing so in plain sight of the public.

It's a lot easier to get banned from the FFXIV/FFXI official forums than it is to get banned from the game, and any GM can explain this to you but it's because the forums are public facing. The general public doesn't see w hat's going on within the game - if the public sees bad words/bulling/whatever on the forums and SE doesn't remove it, it makes them look bad in the public eye, not just to the customers they already have. When you dos omething in plain sight in front of the public, and they see your streem and think that what the streamer is doing is all normal and all allowed , that's not a good thing. That's why SE's priority increases when it's someone breaking the rules in front of the public eye vs people in game breaking the rules without others watching them.


TL;DR: Streamers breaking the rules should be a high priority, contrary to your view, because if the general public sees all those tools and automation and think that's representative of normal gameplay, they'll end up doing it too .

[Stompa]

The bigger issue is that when a person is banned, it takes them just two to three weeks to build a fairly OP new character, complete with Ambuscade OP weapon and Ambuscade OP +2 armour sets.

Some of us predicted this current problem, back in early 2010, when the Level Cap increase was rolled out, and we reiterated it when 119 Item Level was added.

In 2004~2009 era game, it took literally multiple years to build a fairly powerful level 75 character.

Back in those days the rigid structure and actual difficulty of the game was relatively self-policing, because most players were not going to risk losing their level 75 character, with capped skills / merits and decent gear.

Most people remembered the huge amount of work they'd put into their level 75 character, and avoided breaching TOS out of fear of losing that character.

In 2010 and 2013, the lid was taken off, the structure disintegrated, and now the characters are considered disposable and easily replaceable.

[Alhanelem]

In 2010 and 2013, the lid was taken off, the structure disintegrated, and now the characters are considered disposable and easily replaceable. I agree with this up to a certain point, but short of paying ppl to do it, I couldn't just do things like cap job points on even one job overnight, and there is still a lot of stuff locked behind wait times and such that would at least be time consuming, if not difficult, to replace. I'm not about to go do something stupid just because starting over would be less of an inconvenience now than it was before. I'd lose a lot of irreplaceable history too, like my ballista record. maybe stuff like that means not hing to the average multiboxer, but it's special to me and I'm not about to stream myself playing 6 accounts at once (I only have one, for the record) and risk that stuff.

[PandemoniumTylerDurden]

I suppose you don't really watch his stream, but he does a lot of stuff with his viewers such as helping them through content, doing old stuff that people have long abandoned. I'm not even on his server or have ever played with him, but he has really motivated me with his streams and the welcoming community.

I would normally say "technically you cheat" but so do half of Asura lol There are SO many bots, so many multi-boxes on Asura it's hilarious... The inconsistency immediately ommits the "well you did break the rules" when EVERYONE is breaking the rules...


I don't watch his stream. I'd be willing to bet the majority of his content is not doing content with his viewers, unless he is bot partying free items or nms for them, and even then, again, that's probably 2% of his actual stream. The guy has a huge community to harness actual human controlled players from, he has no need to primarily automate XI. If he wants to play how he is currently playing, he has the majority of FF to choose from sans XI and XIV.

That said, others cheating doesn't invalidate someone getting in trouble for cheating.

But ignoring that, most people who do cheat like he does don't stream themselves doing so, or make instructional videos as themselves showing others how to automate 5 other pseudo-bots. He probably wouldn't be banned if he wasn't, it's like robbing a bank and streaming it while doing so, then whining that the other bank robbers weren't/aren't arrested before him, even though he was bringing a literal handful of customers to the bank.

Stop white knighting for the guy, he has only himself to blame.

[Alhanelem]

Indeed. And him bringing publicity is exactly why SE felt the need to punish, because he's basically encouraging less than the best possible in-game behaviors. It's really not the right kind of publicity for the game.



I just moved off of Asura, the level of cheating and rule breaking is epidemic.
Personally, I hope this is the beginning of a trend of people realizing the biggest server isn't necessarily the best one.

[Leny]

Personally, I hope this is the beginning of a trend of people realizing the biggest server isn't necessarily the best one.

There is no one that doesn't know asura is the worst server to PLAY on. But it's also the only server worth being on. It can be both.

With the newest, best armor set being sold by an NPC and taking some of the power away from the crafting/auction house the dynamic changed a little bit though. Inability to buy stuff is the only reason to put up with asura.

[BST]

Actually it is a trend, I have had quite a few, roughly fifteen friends move away from Asura prior to myself.

The community there in my experience is not great, the amount of people that defend Gil buying is just disgusting, and the same goes for Botting.
The same can be said for Content parties, Being asked to type "Cure!" or "Insert action/magic name" because the Healer was a Bot for example, people don't even care anymore, and I won't be a part of that.

I'm not saying everyone on there is into Cheating, but its extremely high, and people tend to get corrupted and end up being complicit in any manor of Cheating.

Complicit in Buying Job Point's from Automated Sellers(just about everyone does this and defends it, disgusting)
Doing as you're told in Parties when a Bot is Healing(just about 100% in use),
Buying Gil and then Buying Muliple Aeonic clears(had people affirm doing so, could not get legit clears with real non-cheating players),
I could go on and on, but the three key things i noted above is very common.

That sum's up Asura from my six months of begging people to do Content, all I got was, don't use Gearswap? /kicked, Don't use windower with X-plugins? /kicked, Don't do as told to get heal/buff from Automated Bot healer? /kick.

.....

[Eaglestrike]

I don't watch his stream. I'd be willing to bet the majority of his content is not doing content with his viewers, unless he is bot partying free items or nms for them, and even then, again, that's probably 2% of his actual stream. The guy has a huge community to harness actual human controlled players from, he has no need to primarily automate XI. If he wants to play how he is currently playing, he has the majority of FF to choose from sans XI and XIV.

That said, others cheating doesn't invalidate someone getting in trouble for cheating.

But ignoring that, most people who do cheat like he does don't stream themselves doing so, or make instructional videos as themselves showing others how to automate 5 other pseudo-bots. He probably wouldn't be banned if he wasn't, it's like robbing a bank and streaming it while doing so, then whining that the other bank robbers weren't/aren't arrested before him, even though he was bringing a literal handful of customers to the bank.

Stop white knighting for the guy, he has only himself to blame.

Why do you feel like you can make a claim about what his stream is like, when you start your post saying you don't watch his stream?

[Alhanelem]

Why do you feel like you can make a claim about what his stream is like, when you start your post saying you don't watch his stream?
Not currently watching != never seen before

[Zehira]

It's a lot easier to get banned from the FFXIV/FFXI official forums than it is to get banned from the game.

For sure. While both games are the same, in my opinion, the FFXI forum is a lot easier to get banned than the FFXIV forum. That forum is never all about a serious discussion. You can have fun whatever you want. You can still see my post on the first page of the "Show your Miqote" thread and that thread is STILL on the top page!? I mean... WOW but my pictures there are forever gone. lol

[Gwydion]

I personally don't like that some players weaponize bans/GM reports to people they suspect of cheating. It adds an additional layer of toxicity where players are already sometimes, pretty contentious towards each other.

Maybe SE should bring back Mordion Gaol? But perhaps extreme durations such as 1-month, 3-month and 1-year bans.

[PandemoniumTylerDurden]

Why do you feel like you can make a claim about what his stream is like, when you start your post saying you don't watch his stream?

I've seen portions of a couple different streams mostly due to this banning, but I wouldn't actively watch his stream as the content is boring, and I don't find him particularly entertaining either. That said, from what little I have experienced I'd be willing to bet that's not actually what the majority of his stream was (per the post I was responding to), thus inviting a correction if I were wrong but heavily doubting so.

I have seen no such evidence of this, so at this point I'm assuming I was, if not spot on, pretty close.

It's certainly not something I would assume someone would need their hand held through.

[Alhanelem]

For sure. While both games are the same, in my opinion, the FFXI forum is a lot easier to get banned than the FFXIV forum. That forum is never all about a serious discussion. You can have fun whatever you want. You can still see my post on the first page of the "Show your Miqote" thread and that thread is STILL on the top page!? I mean... WOW but my pictures there are forever gone. lol
I don't know. Describing one idea (not the person, the idea) as a certain word negative word that starts with an R was enough to get me banned permanently. It didn't even happen until like two weeks after the post either, which means it clearly didn't bother anyone for a while until someone stumbled upon it and decided to report it.

[Zehira]

I don't know. Describing one idea (not the person, the idea) as a certain word negative word that starts with an R was enough to get me banned permanently. It didn't even happen until like two weeks after the post either, which means it clearly didn't bother anyone for a while until someone stumbled upon it and decided to report it.

You mean racist? Yeah, that's unfortunately. We learned our mistakes.

I am kind of a well known person in a friendly community (a very private community). Crazy things going on and I am thankful to be alive.

[alytez]

@Alhanelem - if streaming it was the problem (sure i get that), then why don't all Youtubers/Twitch creators and other obvious botting streamers get banned almost immediately? Why does it take years for players to get banned (including this one)? You can go on twitch now and see people using Windower, but they're ok??? why because even though they're "cheating"... they're not cheating at a higher level... But then we have Asura full of bots. There is no consistency, there's no "priority" list, seems to me there's a Task Force who want to maintain job security and have targets to maintain.

Ya'll can be anti-cheating but the realistic result is this person was a net-gain for the ff11 community. I can't think of any addon that negatively effects a player, him playing 6 at once does not negatively effect me because we all have trusts, or a "closed group of friends". Him paying 6 vs 5 unpaying trusts is a positive, the viewership on twitch is only a good thing for the game going from a couple of hundred to 18 views... Bringing more people to the game and allowing a more pleasant experience due to how badly the game has aged (in terms of UI and controls) is a good thing for everyone. As most of you didn't watch his stream but like to pass judgment, he played with his viewers weekly and would help them get content where shouts and reddit posts have failed.

I guarantee everyone in this thread is using third-party tools in some form and I know for a 100% fact some of you do as I see you on other sites talking about it.

[Alhanelem]

You mean racist? Yeah, that's unfortunately. We learned our mistakes.

I am kind of a well known person in a friendly community (a very private community). Crazy things going on and I am thankful to be alive.
No lol, i'm referring to a word that means "limited growth"

And as far as the post above, well, there's only a few people streaming, so it's a lot easier to pick out the bad apples with their third party tool tutorials. On Youtube, it's like playing whack a mole infracting each individual video.

[Zehira]

No lol, i'm referring to a word that means "limited growth"

I guess Retard? Yeah, free speech is very limited there. Same for this, that's why they have other sites. :)

I know my English is very limited. Like 60% sign language and 40% English in my head so I was trying to guess. There is no way I can be offended enough to report anyone.

[Eaglestrike]

@Alhanelem - if streaming it was the problem (sure i get that), then why don't all Youtubers/Twitch creators and other obvious botting streamers get banned almost immediately? Why does it take years for players to get banned (including this one)? You can go on twitch now and see people using Windower, but they're ok??? why because even though they're "cheating"... they're not cheating at a higher level... But then we have Asura full of bots. There is no consistency, there's no "priority" list, seems to me there's a Task Force who want to maintain job security and have targets to maintain.

Ya'll can be anti-cheating but the realistic result is this person was a net-gain for the ff11 community. I can't think of any addon that negatively effects a player, him playing 6 at once does not negatively effect me because we all have trusts, or a "closed group of friends". Him paying 6 vs 5 unpaying trusts is a positive, the viewership on twitch is only a good thing for the game going from a couple of hundred to 18 views... Bringing more people to the game and allowing a more pleasant experience due to how badly the game has aged (in terms of UI and controls) is a good thing for everyone. As most of you didn't watch his stream but like to pass judgment, he played with his viewers weekly and would help them get content where shouts and reddit posts have failed.

I guarantee everyone in this thread is using third-party tools in some form and I know for a 100% fact some of you do as I see you on other sites talking about it.

Add on, if streaming was the problem, why are most Twitch FFXI streams private servers? Why hasn't SE taken a stance to get rid of people literally copying the FFXI code and streaming it? That feels like a far more egregious attack on the game than a 6-boxer who streams basically all the content in modern FFXI in a team setting.

But my main point is more about cleaning up the rampant and disgusting cheating on Asura. As another person here has stated, the server is full of people 100% okay with RMT and openly utilizing AFK farming bots. How is that not the top priority for SE to remove from the game?

[BST]

@Alhanelem - if streaming it was the problem (sure i get that), then why don't all Youtubers/Twitch creators and other obvious botting streamers get banned almost immediately? Why does it take years for players to get banned (including this one)? You can go on twitch now and see people using Windower, but they're ok??? why because even though they're "cheating"... they're not cheating at a higher level... But then we have Asura full of bots. There is no consistency, there's no "priority" list, seems to me there's a Task Force who want to maintain job security and have targets to maintain.

Ya'll can be anti-cheating but the realistic result is this person was a net-gain for the ff11 community. I can't think of any addon that negatively effects a player, him playing 6 at once does not negatively effect me because we all have trusts, or a "closed group of friends". Him paying 6 vs 5 unpaying trusts is a positive, the viewership on twitch is only a good thing for the game going from a couple of hundred to 18 views... Bringing more people to the game and allowing a more pleasant experience due to how badly the game has aged (in terms of UI and controls) is a good thing for everyone. As most of you didn't watch his stream but like to pass judgment, he played with his viewers weekly and would help them get content where shouts and reddit posts have failed.

I guarantee everyone in this thread is using third-party tools in some form and I know for a 100% fact some of you do as I see you on other sites talking about it.

First of all you're wrong about everyone in this thread using some form of third-party tools in the game.
I don't use any.

Secondly, That streamer wasn't doing anything positive. Running multiple accounts and using third-party tools to promote this game to the world is in no way positive.
The way you defend him "It doesn't affect me..." is just so wrong.

We don't need Cheaters helping ANYONE get content completed, how about, don't play with Cheaters at all.

[Zehira]

But my main point is more about cleaning up the rampant and disgusting cheating on Asura. As another person here has stated, the server is full of people 100% okay with RMT and openly utilizing AFK farming bots. How is that not the top priority for SE to remove from the game?

You can't start mass-banning in Asura. I agree with Gwydion about what would happen.

Imagine how the STF and Mordion Gaol were working without this official forum? As much as I'd like to see Mordion Gaol back.

Now, it seems every time one person gets banned a new thread creates.

[Eaglestrike]

First of all you're wrong about everyone in this thread using some form of third-party tools in the game.
I don't use any.

Secondly, That streamer wasn't doing anything positive. Running multiple accounts and using third-party tools to promote this game to the world is in no way positive.
The way you defend him "It doesn't affect me..." is just so wrong.

We don't need Cheaters helping ANYONE get content completed, how about, don't play with Cheaters at all.

This is an incredibly puritanical and naive mindset. If SE banned everyone who ran third-party tools in FFXI, the servers would shutdown the next month from a lack of population. Which third party tools are being used is where the line needs to be drawn, not simply *any* third party tool.

I made a LS to clear wave 3 Dynamis. My recruitment requirements was just "enough gear to be viable in the content", no third-party requirements whatsoever. Every single person who ever joined my LS used third-party tools before they ever joined. The only person I know that even claims to be 100% third-party free I've had one of the more heavy cheaters I know claim is a lie, so...I don't think I know a single person who doesn't use a third party tool of some variety. So again, your mindset would end FFXI instantly.

[Pixela]

When you stream a game, you become a form of PR for the game. What you do becomes a kind of public image of that game, if you're doing things that people consider botting or cheating (even if you aren't, but they think it is due to lack of knowledge) then they are going to bring the hammer down on you because you're promoting bad behavior in the community that is aware of them. You're giving a public image of the game they do not agree with and do not want to promote. If you're a small streamer, you can get away with things far easier than if you're more influential.

He was banned for setting a bad example.

[Eaglestrike]

When you stream a game, you become a form of PR for the game. What you do becomes a kind of public image of that game, if you're doing things that people consider botting or cheating (even if you aren't, but they think it is due to lack of knowledge) then they are going to bring the hammer down on you because you're promoting bad behavior in the community that is aware of them. You're giving a public image of the game they do not agree with and do not want to promote. If you're a small streamer, you can get away with things far easier than if you're more influential.

He was banned for setting a bad example.

If this is the case, why are all the private servers and the streamers that stream them daily still up and have been for years?

[Symbolah]

This is easy to answer. Just like the problem Blizzard had with WoW, hosting servers in different countries cause loopholes in legal systems which permit the servers to last much longer (possibly not going down at all) than they should. In this case with classic servers, perhaps behind the scenes SE is doing what they can, but governmental and legal red tape impede their progress.

[Dzspdref]

I made a LS to clear wave 3 Dynamis. My recruitment requirements was just "enough gear to be viable in the content", no third-party requirements whatsoever. Every single person who ever joined my LS used third-party tools before they ever joined. The only person I know that even claims to be 100% third-party free I've had one of the more heavy cheaters I know claim is a lie, so...I don't think I know a single person who doesn't use a third party tool of some variety. So again, your mindset would end FFXI instantly.

Hello Eaglestrike / Ladyofhonor!

Hi! I'm from Asura and i do NOT use ANY type of third party tool AT ALL. Only pure vanilla game. Only thing I have that I use which was not given back when game came out is the in-game windowed version they gave us to use on the config option, and have another window open on to bgwiki or some other helpful site to look things up when needed. Previous to this I would have a second laptop with me for that extra online search engine, but now do it with just one monitor.

[Alhanelem]

Add on, if streaming was the problem, why are most Twitch FFXI streams private servers? Why hasn't SE taken a stance to get rid of people literally copying the FFXI code and streaming it? That feels like a far more egregious attack on the game than a 6-boxer who streams basically all the content in modern FFXI in a team setting.

It's actually a lot harder to go after those primary servers than you think.

I mean, you really can't justify this in any way. a livestreamer streaming blatant cheating isn't going to sit well with SE because well, he's showing people how cheating works, and there's plenty of evidence. It can be hard to definitively prove someone is cheating ingame in many cases otherwise, and they err on the side of people being innocent, because well you don't want to lose paying customers. And an actually innocent paying customer getting banned isn't just going to leave it at that, they're going to give SE bad publicity which can lead to more lost money, compared to a real violator..

And SE does ban these bots, but it's a bogged down process, and by the time they ban someone, there's two more in their place. It's a whack a mole game you can't win. Their process of investigating every incident to be sure t hey aren't falsely banning anyone is a significant factor in why they don't seem to be making progress.