View Full Version : [Dev 1009] Force Pop HNM's FTW
Flunklesnarkin
04-21-2011, 04:23 AM
It doesn't make sense to me..
everybody is saying the ??? are going to be overcrowded but at the same time complaining about how difficult it is to obtain kindred seals.
I'd imagine after a month nearly everybody that cares will have burnt off all their excess kindred seals.
Lets say you had 2K kindred seals... and it takes about 30 mins to get a 99 orb >> run to the zone >> and beat the ksnm
that would be about 10 hours... say maybe 10 days to do all your ksnm if you did it an hour a day
It would take considerable less time to actually kill w/e hnm you go to kill.. but lets say another 10 hours to kill the 20+ triggers you get
so all in all.. maybe 1 hour for 20 days...
Yah.. the zone won't remain crowded for long... if you hate camping a ??? just wait a month
Twille
04-21-2011, 04:49 AM
The real problem will be after people blow all their KS and still didn't get the HQ pop item....
Flunklesnarkin
04-21-2011, 04:52 AM
The real problem will be after people blow all their KS and still didn't get the HQ pop item....
I agree lets complain about the right things...
We need alternate methods of acquiring these hnm triggers
Maybe the dev's could add a npc that gives you a free NQ trigger of your choosing once a week
Twille
04-21-2011, 04:58 AM
I think the general idea is great! But the rewards in FFXI are always so...random.
Go to the work of gathering 99KS, get a group to kill it, get the pop item for NQ HNM, gather another group, kill it to MAYBE get a pop item for the HQ.
That's too much effort for a POSSIBLE HQ pop.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 05:26 AM
Honestly getting BB items just got much easier. You get 2 damn chances at your item instead of one. The Kings themselves arn't being adjusted in toughness either. If you can't kill Kings @ level 90 with a lowman group then you really need to wonder if you really will put that Black Belt to good use.
The amount of QQIng about this is seriously amazing. Some of the posts I've read are outright retarded and foolish. A Black Belt is still one of the best items in the game. I hate to come off sounding like an elitist but I'm happy that the method while easier isn't something everyone is going obtain.
A Black Belt is still considered by most a commitment of being a MNK. It shouldn't be handed out like cake like some of you people are asking for.
No it is not.
Old way > new way for getting BB items chance.
you have one chance from KSNM, then you can go camp the NM witch is less time then getting the KS with a lot higher chance of getting BB items
I am going to try REALLY hard to get egg before this craptasic update takes place. ( may be hard camping it because others may do what i am doing now -.- so update notes makes it hard now)
The only thing i can see being happy about this update is higher chance in D ring, ok, but that does not change the fact it makes BB items harder.
Other then that I still do not understand that makes this update good, it is a step back, i hope they change the orginal notes.
Twille
04-21-2011, 05:30 AM
The only benefit to me is that i might have a change at a Dring now....maybe. haha.
Karbuncle
04-21-2011, 05:39 AM
No it is not.
Old way > new way for getting BB items chance.
Wrong, On so many levels. Its not a massive improvement, but its much better.
you have one chance from KSNM, then you can go camp the NM witch is less time then getting the KS with a lot higher chance of getting BB items
Also Likely Wrong, The update notes specify you will always get at least 1 Pop for the NQ NM. Chances are we could get 2-3 Per KSNM. Only problem is the Unknown. Which is "How high is King-pop drop rate?" and 'How much did they nerf King BB item drop rate?", and "Will they be R? or EX? can i sell them? can i hold more than 1?"
I am goign to try REALLY hard to get egg before this craptasic update takes place.
Only had 8 years, You'll probably be able to get it now with all the other 80 people who are thinking the same thing you are :|
The only thing i can see being happy about this update is higher chance in D ring, ok, but that does not change the fact it makes BB items harder.
Yes it does, The BB Items will be easier to to Obtain in the long run. Theres probably going to be multiple KSNM99 shouts, and with the chance (according to update) to get more than 1 pop per KSNM, i think there will be a lot going around early on. just need to get in on some shouts, or get some friends and do your own runs.
I think this is a fine situation where having Friends is probably paramount.
Other then that I still do not understand that makes this update good, it is a step back, i hope they change the orginal notes.
its a step forward, a small step though, Admittedly not a large step. But it is a step. It would have been a large step if they didn't adjust BB Item Drop rate. But as it stands for most of the population (not talking about the 15 some odd people here whining) this will likely be a plus.
Really, my only gripe is them is removing the BB items from NQ, and decreasing it from HQ. seemed like they shot themselves in the foot doing that. Was totally uncalled for. They could have done 1 or the other, but doing both was backpedaling this entire update.
Twille
04-21-2011, 05:44 AM
With the way SE operates, do you realistically expect more than one NQ drop per KSNM?
Rambus
04-21-2011, 05:47 AM
Wrong, On so many levels. Its not a massive improvement, but its much better.
No it isn't people do not farm HNMs much, people do not have a reason to monopolize HNMs in the respect of buying a bot and paying for said bot from claiming HNMs. people have bigger interest for abyssea. Maybe if this was before abyssea yeah good chance I am wrong, but with times now? no i am not.
the amount people shout should not be an argument to support this change.
Semco
04-21-2011, 05:48 AM
It seems a bit tough to get the BB items now which I think is a good thing. This game has lost alot of its luster just because its way to easy. IMO the reason this game was the best was because of its challenge, alot of that has been lost. I want the challenge back.
Xenotime
04-21-2011, 05:52 AM
This is just as dumb as making a shield better than aegis, you put too much time into something, and this noob spends two weeks, and his shield is better.
Rezeak
04-21-2011, 05:53 AM
I haven't read the whole tread buuuuuut
Being able to do 10 NQ kings as and LS event with the chance to do a few HQ is amazing ^^ and something FUN for my ls to do ^^
Thx SE.
Karbuncle
04-21-2011, 05:54 AM
No it isn't people do not farm HNMs much, people do not have a reason to monopolize HNMs in the respect of buying a bot and paying for said bot from claiming HNMs. people have bigger interest for abyssea. Maybe if this was before abyssea yeah good chance I am wrong, but with times now? no i am not.
the amount people shout should not be an argument to support this change.
So what you're saying here is that. You think the System where the entire population of people after a BB item had at best 1 chance per day, Is better than the Entire population as individuals being able to pop the NM when they get the seals, any time of the day, and multiple times depending on Seals/friends available?
I'm sorry that doesn't make any sense. At BEST the old system allowed 1 Group of people to have a shot at the NM once per day. this new systems gives everyone a shot at the NM (seals allowing) meaning multiple people will kill the NM per day.
its an improvement.
Duzell
04-21-2011, 05:54 AM
I hate this update, I loved it until the line of nerfing the drop rates on BB items. I'm all for them being force pops, heck ill even go farm the dang KSs to get the dumb pop items. I just want a guarenteed reward of some kind when I finally get a HQ pop item (which im betting is just replacing the BB item from the NQ NM, might as well use a already programmed slot).
That being said that damn turtle KSNM is still a pain in the butt at 90 with 5 BLMs, 2 ppl making darkness to MB off of, a tank and a rdm refreshing everyone and silencing the damn thing. I swear the thing has +1000 MDB.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 05:57 AM
So what you're saying here is that. You think the System where the entire population of people after a BB item had at best 1 chance per day, Is better than the Entire population as individuals being able to pop the NM when they get the seals, any time of the day, and multiple times depending on Seals/friends available?
I'm sorry that doesn't make any sense. At BEST the old system allowed 1 Group of people to have a shot at the NM once per day. this new systems gives everyone a shot at the NM (seals allowing) meaning multiple people will kill the NM per day.
its an improvement.
it is only an improvement if you assume people have a large store of seals, which is not fair. so i call that an invalid argument.
you take more time farming for KS and trying to get BB drop with old system then new system.
old:
you camp NM for 3 hours, good chance of egg.
you farm 99 KSNM for small chance of egg.
new:
you farm 99 KS, small chance of drop.
you get pop item
you get chance of HQ drop.
you have even smaller chance of drop.
it is a step back
or you can only camp witch is less time then farming for ksnm seals ( TIME YOU HAVE TO SPEND PLAYING, not real time of omg we can do more then one in a day)
Manicora
04-21-2011, 05:58 AM
Easy fix: Ks99 = 100% Drop for 1 of the 3 HNM zone Nm's. Each of the HNM ??? pops have a chance to drop a HQ trig(i hope 50% rate) HQ ??? pop only can drop BB item + all normal drops: Same zone should house New HNM of lvl 99 King's To prevent random people from claiming make it like Sea NM farming where there is a chance, upon kill of HQ HNM, you recieve KI for new HNM: Who knows maybe make Jponry your Final HNM (Quacks alot with 100% KC attack speed and Bloodweapon)
Or make it Like sandworm where instead of KI make it Doomvoid and Have to fight all 3 HQ Kings at once to recieve Black belt +1 20% haste with 15% Pdt- and regain/regen .... SE is great but they have little vision past Aby and I hope at least someone has an original Idea that they can steal to make the game as fun as back in 2003-2005
Karbuncle
04-21-2011, 06:07 AM
it is only an improvement if you assume people have a large store of seals, which is not fair. so i call that an invalid argument.
you take more time farming for KS and trying to get BB drop with old system then new system.
old:
you camp NM for 3 hours, good chance of egg.
you farm 99 KSNM for small chance of egg.
new:
you farm 99 KS, small chance of drop.
you get pop item
you get chance of HQ drop.
you have even smaller chance of drop.
it is a step back
or you can only camp witch is less time then farming for ksnm seals ( TIME YOU HAVE TO SPEND PLAYING, not real time of omg we can do more then one in a day)
Its only not an Improvement when you think about "ME ME ME ME ME!" like you are.
Really, Complain and map it out as pessimistically as you want. The point is the Old system sucked ass, and this is an Improvement.
Rather you like it or not, The old system only allowed 1 Person to Kill the NM per day, This system allows as many people as possible to pop the NM as often as they want (*Seals permitting). It may not be an Improvement to the people who blew all their Kindred Seals, But to the other 90% of the Population who have been sitting on Stacks of them with no use, this is an improvement.
Rather you personally gain from this or not doesn't make or break the system, as a Whole this is a far better improvement over old style kings. I'm not even talking about Bots or etc cause those are moot at this point.
The point is, as a population, there will be far more Kings Popped/killed per day than the old system permitted, at the very least withing the first ~month or two when everyone is getting their BB items/Drings/Out-datedAbjurations.
Flunklesnarkin
04-21-2011, 06:12 AM
I seriously doubt rambus has ever camped adamantoise if he thinks its a good drop rate >_>
and screw standing around for 3 hours... especially when that 3 hours happens to start at 4 AM in the morning... just to be outclaimed
The system is an improvement just for the fact you dont have to stay up to retarded hours of the day
Sparthos
04-21-2011, 06:13 AM
it is only an improvement if you assume people have a large store of seals, which is not fair. so i call that an invalid argument.
This patch makes people who didn't have interest in BB items now interested in possible old king items. This means those BB items they dont want go up for grabs. Know all those people who want Drings? Guess what? They wouldn't have been using their kindreds had this change not happened.
More demand for Ks99 = more BB items floating around.
you take more time farming for KS and trying to get BB drop with old system then new system.
old:
you camp NM for 3 hours, good chance of egg. Wat? NQ kings droprates on BB items was terrible. HQ kings took anything from 3-9 days to pop. Thats multiple DAYS where only one BB item would possibly drop
you farm 99 KSNM for small chance of egg. which was difficult because no one wanted to do ks99 since everything is trash outside BB item
new:
you farm 99 KS, small chance of drop. same chance with a larger pool of participants and the second chance through NQ pop
you get pop item
you get chance of HQ drop.
you have even smaller chance of drop. We don't know the HQ droprate. It could be better than Ks99 and its still a second chance you didn't have before. Add to that you can lure ppl to come help with abjurations.
it is a step back
It's a step forward.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 06:16 AM
I seriously doubt rambus has ever camped adamantoise if he thinks its a good drop rate >_>
and screw standing around for 3 hours... especially when that 3 hours happens to start at 4 AM in the morning... just to be outclaimed
The system is an improvement just for the fact you dont have to stay up to retarded hours of the day
I do not think you ever did KSNM egg if you think it is a good drop rate, the NM is better drop rate then that ksnm
Its only not an Improvement when you think about "ME ME ME ME ME!" like you are.
Really, Complain and map it out as pessimistically as you want. The point is the Old system sucked ass, and this is an Improvement.
Rather you like it or not, The old system only allowed 1 Person to Kill the NM per day, This system allows as many people as possible to pop the NM as often as they want (*Seals permitting). It may not be an Improvement to the people who blew all their Kindred Seals, But to the other 90% of the Population who have been sitting on Stacks of them with no use, this is an improvement.
Rather you personally gain from this or not doesn't make or break the system, as a Whole this is a far better improvement over old style kings. I'm not even talking about Bots or etc cause those are moot at this point.
The point is, as a population, there will be far more Kings Popped/killed per day than the old system permitted, at the very least withing the first ~month or two when everyone is getting their BB items/Drings/Out-datedAbjurations.
again you are assuming stock piles of ks seals, if that is not memememe i dont know what is.
all i understand is people that like this idea are the same with huge stockpiles.
step back.
Flunklesnarkin
04-21-2011, 06:18 AM
You are proving me right here.. the NM has a horrible drop rate also
Rambus
04-21-2011, 06:21 AM
You are proving me right here.. the NM has a horrible drop rate also
and SE said they are lowering it!
so step back.
oh lowering it in 2 cases, btw
didn't HQ have a 100% drop or some high drop rate?
Tyraant
04-21-2011, 06:24 AM
I think they should make the current crests/seals like the echelon trophies.
High Kindred crests= 2 Kindred crests
Kindred crests = 2 Kindred seals
Kindred seals = 2 Beastmen seals
Beastmen seals bottom tier
and vise versa
2 Beastmen seals = 1 Kindred Seal
2 Kindred seals = 1 Kindred Crest
2 Kindred Crest = 1 High Kindred Crest
also make it so you can take equivalent b. seals to purchase a H.Kindred crest rather than going through the hoops. Aht Urhgan currency comes to mind.
this method would allow those people who have 1023902945098 Beastmen seals lying around doing nothing to use them for relevant material. also would allow the people who have 130234234 Kindred crests, and H.K. crests toward popping NMs
Rambus
04-21-2011, 06:26 AM
I think they should make the current crests/seals like the echelon trophies.
H. Kindred crests are top tier
Kindred crests = 2 Kindred seals
Kindred seals = 2 Beastmen seals
Beastmen seals bottom tier
and vise versa
2 Beastmen seals = 1 Kindred Seal
2 Kindred seals = 1 Kindred Crest
2 Kindred Crest = 1 High Kindred Crest
also make it so you can take equivalent b. seals to purchase a H.Kindred crest rather than going through the hoops. Aht Urhgan currency comes to mind.
this method would allow those people who have 1023902945098 Beastmen seals lying around doing nothing to use them for relevant material. also would allow the people who have 130234234 Kindred crests, and H.K. crests toward popping NMs
if they do that illshutup, till we can quote drop rates anyway
Siiri
04-21-2011, 06:27 AM
I agree its a big improvement. I personally got my black belt at lvl 75 before the level cap rise and the bandwagon monk era, but I never found the KSNM99 drop rate that bad. I received 2 out of 3 items from KSNM99, going with friends mostly, and we usually ran a 25-50% drop rate. Just a few months ago we were 2/4 on the Turtle KSNM99. I do remember going for my Behemoth KSNM99 though and getting no tongue and crap drops. I would have been thrilled with a key item/trigger item to pop Behemoth.
Realistically most of the people on a server never had a chance at claiming a land king. If it was so easy why don't you already have your black belt? I know when my best friend was going for his black belt, as 2 working adults we found it hard to camp the land kings due to work schedules, etc. So we ran a KSNM99 event for our social linkshell and got 2 beards and 2 eggs out of 4 runs at each. Now it is even more incentive to do a KSNM 99, which serious monks were doing all along. Even if you get a bad drop on your orb, you will get another chance via this system. How is this not a positive?
As for those without people to help them get the items, this game has been out how long? People seriously don't have friends who will throw in an occasional orb and want a chance to fight a HQ Land king? Not everyone is a bandwagon monk, although it does seem like it at times. I understand many of the new monks are former SAMs who thought they could buy a Hagun and be the King DD, but unfortunately for the these players a black belt has always taken some work. Also, 99 seals is hardly an obstacle for a serious monk intent on getting the best item for their job.
Karbuncle
04-21-2011, 06:29 AM
I do not think you ever did KSNM egg if you think it is a good drop rate, the NM is better drop rate then that ksnm
again you are assuming stock piles of ks seals, if that is not memememe i dont know what is.
all i understand is people that like this idea are the same with huge stockpiles.
step back.
Step forward.
I understand people Don't have stockpiles of kindred seals, But are you saying you can't join a shout? The way it sounds there could be multiple pops per KSNM so you could get lucky on one. Or, Do you have no friends either? I can't imagine out of all your massive large stocks of friends none of them have a few Kindred seals to help you get a Black Belt?
But really, Theres that narrow-mindedness. You're only thinking "Some people dont have Kindred seals!" instead of "Some people have plenty!"
As with the old system, There are people left out. The old system, one group/person per day had one chance at the drop. Everyone else is screwed.
in this system, Everyone has a chance to kill the NM. As Often as they want (*Seals Permitting). So like the old system, those without seals can fall behind, But in the end, More people have a shot at the NM. More people have a chance to kill it than the old system.
FORWARD STEP. MARCH.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 06:31 AM
I agree its a big improvement. I personally got my black belt at lvl 75 before the level cap rise and the bandwagon monk era, but I never found the KSNM99 drop rate that bad. I received 2 out of 3 items from KSNM99, going with friends mostly, and we usually ran a 25-50% drop rate. Just a few months ago we were 2/4 on the Turtle KSNM99. I do remember going for my Behemoth KSNM99 though and getting no tongue and crap drops. I would have been thrilled with a key item/trigger item to pop Behemoth.
Realistically most of the people on a server never had a chance at claiming a land king. If it was so easy why don't you already have your black belt? I know when my best friend was going for his black belt, as 2 working adults we found it hard to camp the land kings due to work schedules, etc. So we ran a KSNM99 event for our social linkshell and got 2 beards and 2 eggs out of 4 runs at each. Now it is even more incentive to do a KSNM 99, which serious monks were doing all along. Even if you get a bad drop on your orb, you will get another chance via this system. How is this not a positive?
As for those without people to help them get the items, this game has been out how long? People seriously don't have friends who will throw in an occasional orb and want a chance to fight a HQ Land king? Not everyone is a bandwagon monk, although it does seem like it at times. I understand many of the new monks are former SAMs who thought they could buy a Hagun and be the King DD, but unfortunately for the these players a black belt has always taken some work. Also, 99 seals is hardly an obstacle for a serious monk intent on getting the best item for their job.
beard and tongue? egg is the bad one from ksnm
2/4 on egg for your friends? wtf -.-
Freyaru
04-21-2011, 06:40 AM
I have to say that I agree with those who said that this is one of the worst ideas I have seen in a long time out of SE. Like it or not a huge port of this game has always been time spawn NMs. This was something a majority of the player base did enjoy, with or without bots. The entire point of the ks99 was to allow people who did not want to camp time spawn NMs a way to get Black Belt. Einherjar was then a way created to allow people to get King Abj. The only three drops that were worth anything by the time of ToAU that could not be obtained from a force pop situation were Pixie Earring, Defending Ring, and Ridill. Now do not get me wrong all three of those are still epic pieces till this day, but not worth changing an entire system that many people consider a big part of this game.
First off for all but the turtle the ks99 is harder than NQ or HQ spawn, and the only reason for the issue at Aspid is that you have aggro all around you. The others though can be killed by 2 people without an issue and 0 deaths. True the Behemoth ks99 can be killed with 2 BLM no problem could be at 75, but one has to eat Final Meteor. Though still now you cannot duo the Wyrm ks99 due to having to force it down. So why make the harder fights the way to obtain the easier NMs?
Though I do understand those that do not want to camp time spawned NMs, there have always been people on both sides of the issue. You either love it or hate it, though there are still many that get all anxious for those few seconds every 30 min. Why remove the original NMs? Could there not just be an addition of the force pop with lowered drop rates and leave the land kings as is? Minus Tiamat the land kings are the only large time spawn actually being killed.
Siiri
04-21-2011, 06:48 AM
beard and tongue? egg is the bad one from ksnm
2/4 on egg for your friends? wtf -.-
Sounds like you had bad luck for sure on KSNM99 egg. That really sucks but I don't think it is representative of drop rate in general. Unfortunately the random number generator can spin that way at times. I was very bitter at Dynamis when we didn't see a black mage hat in 12 months going to xarc 2 times a month. Personally I would never sweat out an item like that again. Good luck getting your egg, it really isn't to hard to claim NQ turtle on Bismarck, but people may go crazy camping with these changes.
Sparthos
04-21-2011, 06:50 AM
I was wondering when the person defending the timed spawn system of kings would show up.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 06:54 AM
Step forward.
I understand people Don't have stockpiles of kindred seals, But are you saying you can't join a shout? The way it sounds there could be multiple pops per KSNM so you could get lucky on one. Or, Do you have no friends either? I can't imagine out of all your massive large stocks of friends none of them have a few Kindred seals to help you get a Black Belt?
But really, Theres that narrow-mindedness. You're only thinking "Some people dont have Kindred seals!" instead of "Some people have plenty!"
As with the old system, There are people left out. The old system, one group/person per day had one chance at the drop. Everyone else is screwed.
in this system, Everyone has a chance to kill the NM. As Often as they want (*Seals Permitting). So like the old system, those without seals can fall behind, But in the end, More people have a shot at the NM. More people have a chance to kill it than the old system.
FORWARD STEP. MARCH.
you do not that people will make shouts, assuming what people will do is invalid, and what if people shout when i have ls events?
this is 1 step forward, 2 steps back
Sounds like you had bad luck for sure on KSNM99 egg. That really sucks but I don't think it is representative of drop rate in general. Unfortunately the random number generator can spin that way at times. I was very bitter at Dynamis when we didn't see a black mage hat in 12 months going to xarc 2 times a month. Personally I would never sweat out an item like that again. Good luck getting your egg, it really isn't to hard to claim NQ turtle on Bismarck, but people may go crazy camping with these changes.
we will see, let you know how it goes,... assuming you care
Francisco
04-21-2011, 06:58 AM
Making the triggers rare/ex will just hinder people trying to acquire the items from the hnm's
Taking "Ex" off the item also opens up a whole new shitcan of players farming the items just so they can bazaar them in Jeuno or toss them up on the AH.
Also, IMO... Either of these is acceptable:
1: KS99 - 100% drop rate on Behemoth pop item.
2: Behemoth - ~50% drop rate on King Behemoth pop item.
3: King Behemoth - 100% drop rate on Behemoth tongue.
OR
1: KS99 - 100% drop rate on Behemoth pop item.
2: Behemoth - 100% drop rate on King Behemoth pop item.
3: King Behemoth - 50% drop rate on Behemoth Tongue.
I'd just remove the Black Belt items from the KS99 and make it a really good chance of getting the HQ King + Black Belt item for the effort.
Malamasala
04-21-2011, 06:59 AM
While I don't care at all about these NMs, I'd like to point out that I never got many seals at all leveling. I believe I haven't farmed KS a single time, and leveled 2 jobs to 75 in the old days, and have had a total of about 200 seals in that time. Assuming we have any other casuals playing and wanting BB, they'd have to level 3 jobs to 75 to even get 1 pop item per HNM, and then they'd have like 10% chance at the drops.
Only insane people have ever had over 500 seals. (And with insane, I mean people who play FFXI all days)
Fiarlia
04-21-2011, 07:03 AM
QQ bbbbaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww
I swear to god you whine and complain almost as much as Krystal.
MarkovChain
04-21-2011, 07:37 AM
Something that I didn't see mentionned is that mobs can also drops beastmen's seal, so this double farming time.
CrystalWeapon
04-21-2011, 07:40 AM
[...]
Only insane people have ever had over 500 seals. (And with insane, I mean people who play FFXI all days)
Or people who solo'd beastmaster to 75.
InfamousDS
04-21-2011, 08:04 AM
I've read it all.... every single post for 29 pages barring what may be posted while I type this.
Both sides have valid arguments, both sides are right in some respects. But I feel the need to point out I am at 346KS + 27 in my inventory. I solo a LOT, almost obsessively, outside Abyssea. Not because I hate Abyssea (I'm not fond of keying but it IS the fastest way to level), but because between school and my LS's recent player-loss I have much fewer friends readily available, and much less time to monopolize with the few who haven't changed shells or quit. In the course of 3 years I have only done 2 ODS, meaning the number of seals you see is the total for soloing Dancer to 75 (and then some) and Summoner to 66 minus those 2 runs (as well as my Magian gains). And while I have yet to do the KS99, I do hang out with my brother who does them every once in a while. I have seen his group (all of whom who are veteran players with excellent gear) wipe a few times to badly timed spells or TP moves. The fact is: The KS99s can (or sometimes are) be harder than the regular NMs. On top of this, no drop at all on NQ hurts because even with spamming there is no guarantee of HQ drops. Seals are uncommon even at the best standards (being 50-80 [or 75 I think] only), and 99 is a bit far. I have 4 Magian daggers to completion, and a Wind Perpetuation staff to the first Garuda kill stage. It is too far, unless you devote hours (the very same spent camping a NM) on getting the seals for a drop.
As for being an improvement, all it did was make them open whenever. It did nothing to reduce the time investment. I pity you 3AM campers, I really do. That's too much for me to do. So if you can burn up the seals, great! But what about players like me? I have few KS, and 297 (with the greatest luck evah!) is nearly everything I have. I'd like to know what SE plans for that very, very fast eventuality. At best guess I think maybe 10% of the current population has in excess of 1000KS, and 40% has excess of 500K. That's 60% with less than 500, which means 60% will only have around 1 chance WITHOUT leeching or buying. Oh, and nearly all gil drops are dead, so getting 3mil+ is still relatively time consuming.
End of Post.
And.... here comes the "you're so wrong, this is the best thing ever!" hate speech.
MarkovChain
04-21-2011, 08:15 AM
Can the devs be clearer about the possiblity getting more than one NQ pop item per KS99 ? Only the US version says that at least one pop item will drop in the pool while german and french only say pop item for each NM are 100%.
At least one of these items will be dropped in every battle.
Ces objets apparaîtront systématiquement dans le butin à la fin de chaque combat.
Diese Items befinden sich beim Sieg über die Monster mit 100% Wahrscheinlichkeit im Beutepool.
Somehow I feel that the 100% droprate is the only correct one ...
Libtech
04-21-2011, 08:18 AM
Or people who solo'd beastmaster to 75.
Agreed!
I just checked my stash and have 931 KS + an unused orb in storage. Have 1656 bs
All cause of the power of bst and /bst
GlobalVariable
04-21-2011, 08:30 AM
I for one think this is the worst thing they could possibly do.
The HNMs need to be less annoying to camp, not more annoying to pop.
Making them pop spawns and all is fine, however now you're REQUIRED to do the KS99, which is harder than the NQ spawns, to get a drop that may not be 100%, to pop the NQ version and get another drop, that may also not be 100%, to pop the HQ and hope for the BB item, which is assured to not be 100%.
Worst update that they've hit us with in a while.
SE needs to stop being an evil genie with this giving us what we wanted in the most twisted vile way possible. This just screams "lets make the player base argue with each other".
Rambus
04-21-2011, 08:39 AM
I've read it all.... every single post for 29 pages barring what may be posted while I type this.
Both sides have valid arguments, both sides are right in some respects. But I feel the need to point out I am at 346KS + 27 in my inventory. I solo a LOT, almost obsessively, outside Abyssea. Not because I hate Abyssea (I'm not fond of keying but it IS the fastest way to level), but because between school and my LS's recent player-loss I have much fewer friends readily available, and much less time to monopolize with the few who haven't changed shells or quit. In the course of 3 years I have only done 2 ODS, meaning the number of seals you see is the total for soloing Dancer to 75 (and then some) and Summoner to 66 minus those 2 runs (as well as my Magian gains). And while I have yet to do the KS99, I do hang out with my brother who does them every once in a while. I have seen his group (all of whom who are veteran players with excellent gear) wipe a few times to badly timed spells or TP moves. The fact is: The KS99s can (or sometimes are) be harder than the regular NMs. On top of this, no drop at all on NQ hurts because even with spamming there is no guarantee of HQ drops. Seals are uncommon even at the best standards (being 50-80 [or 75 I think] only), and 99 is a bit far. I have 4 Magian daggers to completion, and a Wind Perpetuation staff to the first Garuda kill stage. It is too far, unless you devote hours (the very same spent camping a NM) on getting the seals for a drop.
As for being an improvement, all it did was make them open whenever. It did nothing to reduce the time investment. I pity you 3AM campers, I really do. That's too much for me to do. So if you can burn up the seals, great! But what about players like me? I have few KS, and 297 (with the greatest luck evah!) is nearly everything I have. I'd like to know what SE plans for that very, very fast eventuality. At best guess I think maybe 10% of the current population has in excess of 1000KS, and 40% has excess of 500K. That's 60% with less than 500, which means 60% will only have around 1 chance WITHOUT leeching or buying. Oh, and nearly all gil drops are dead, so getting 3mil+ is still relatively time consuming.
End of Post.
And.... here comes the "you're so wrong, this is the best thing ever!" hate speech.
I have 219 KS, this is spending maybe 5 99's
this is comming from a person with 19- level 90s, cap exp before abyssea, around 800 merits then, 1400 ish now.
SE needs to stop being an evil genie with this giving us what we wanted in the most twisted vile way possible. This just screams "lets make the player base argue with each other".
reminds me of that one movie about that guy that sold his sole to the devil that stuck him with stuff he did not want.
"I want to be the president of the US"
*pops he is Lincoln before the assassination*
"I want to be rich , writer,"... something of that effect
he pops in his wish gay.
“I wish to be rich/powerful”
Ends up being a drug lord in mexico or something
Trollinthedungeon
04-21-2011, 08:46 AM
To everyone who complains about how hard it is to obtained 99 KS and beat the KSNM. Have no fear, cry hard enough and SE will put out a NPC where you click on it and obtain the gear you want instantly! Until then get farming crybabys.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 08:51 AM
To everyone who complains about how hard it is to obtained 99 KS and beat the KSNM. Have no fear, cry hard enough and SE will put out a NPC where you click on it and obtain the gear you want instantly! Until then get farming crybabys.
I do not care about that, I would rather have this "update" not exist.
I see it as making it worse with how things are stated.
Daremo
04-21-2011, 09:09 AM
I see someone put a lot of thought into their user name.
GlobalVariable
04-21-2011, 09:11 AM
reminds me of that one movie about that guy that sold his sole to the devil that stuck him with stuff he did not want.
"I want to be the president of the US"
*pops he is Lincoln before the assassination*
"I want to be rich , writer,"... something of that effect
he pops in his wish gay.
“I wish to be rich/powerful”
Ends up being a drug lord in mexico or somethingI seriously think they set us up to have these long flame fest threads so we complain at each other instead of them. I mean look at Trollinthedungeon's post;
cry hard enough and SE will put out a NPC where you click on it and obtain the gear you want instantly! that is exactly the kind of thing I expected before I even read the thread. For years the bottle neck was botting. Its clear that was allowed to go on just for the sake of having a bottle neck that wasn't their fault (players woul blame cheaters/RMT not SE, while saying SE can't detect/prove it) and now that land kings are very dead, they get an update to re-bottleneck black belt specifically.
On my server I had seen these hit the dirt if nobody was present to purchase them off the botting LS. I can never find any friends willing and able to do the KSNM. They never have seals and don't want to go without an orb. I have 650 ish seals left and they haven't dropped for me yet. And pretty much the only people that ever answer the shouts want the same thing I do. At least HQ kings were 100%...We all know or have been that guy that goes 0/200 on some drop. Thats me on almost everything that is random. I'm just not a lucky guy.
And now to await being flamed and told I want everything handed to me for no work.
Madmax
04-21-2011, 09:22 AM
It said nothing about KS99 BB items being removed.
Stop being stupid.
Oh so now having an opinion warrants a personal attack? May be I'll report you to site admin. Sick of people like you calling names because you don't agree with someones opinion.
My only real problem with this change and entirely the reason why I even bother posting about it, is that people are gloating that it's been made harder to obtain the BB, masking it with the word "easier". Like, ha-haaaa, that'll teach you to bitch at us botters for all those years of blocking you. Hope you enjoy your BB hunting now!
Really, it cannot get any easier than sitting around for 3 hours waiting for a HNM to pop. To say this is making things easier is pure pipe dreaming. What it does do is permit players to go after these monsters on their own time instead of the games time. That's a huge plus. But it's a far cry from making black belt any easier to obtain than it already is.... once your current supply of kindred seals are used up, of course.
Hell for all we know it really is going to be THAT easy. If you've got at least some seals saved, you may very well be set. The problem here is that we don't know what the drop rate on BB items will be. If it's low.... yeah, it's going to be harder than the way things are now. If it's still decently high... then sure, why not, BB just got mega easier. It's all just speculation at this point, plain and simple. The reps are probably reading all of our posts and going, "lol if they only knew the new drop rate for BB items are 50% now. Lol I remember when Abyssea was first released and everyone thought they were restricted to 30 minutes per day. Lol people are quick to jump to conclusions. Lol etc."
Speculation and assumptions never does anyone any real good, but I guess it's better than being bored to death.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 09:56 AM
Oh gee aspid is not up i WONDER why -.-
you do not know the drop rate on the HQ item drop ether void, if it is 50% then the bb item is 50% that means you have a 25% chance for egg, i rather camp NM then spend 99 seals on that
Karbuncle
04-21-2011, 10:15 AM
Oh gee aspid is not up i WONDER why -.-
you do not know the drop rate on the HQ item drop ether void, if it is 50% then the bb item is 50% that means you have a 25% chance for egg, i rather camp NM then spend 99 seals on that
I think I'll go abou this another way
Old System Flaws:
*One NM popped Per Day. Allowing only 1 group/person a Chance at the item per 24 hours
*Everyone but the group who claims is left out. (I.E Now has 0% Chance of getting item they want)
*if theres even 5 other people after the same item, Assuming they don't team up (they wont). You now have a 20% chance to claim, and less chance at drop, Assuming HQ doesn't pop that day. So while you may claim, and have your chance, the other 4 people now have 0% Chance until 21 hours have passed. They're screwed for the rest of the day.
Old System positives
........................
...
......
E-peen...?
New System Flaws
*There are still people left out. People without a large amount of kindred Seals Don't have a chance to get their own pops.
*They reduced BB drop from king, Removed it from NQ.
*Forces you to do KSNM99, not everyone can do it.
New System positive
*According to Update notes (*needs Verif. now...) There might be a possibility for more than 1 Pop item per KSNM run. So players without 99KS can join a shout group with a chance to grab an excess one.
*Everyone has an equal chance to kill the NM. Seals or no Seals, You have just as much right/chances to pop the NM as the next guy.
*Less people left out per day as opposed to old system. More than 1 can pop per day, No waiting for Windows.
*Forces you to do KSNM99, Which have low chance at BB item, as well as a little gil.
Unknowns
*Will the Pop item be R? or EX? Can i Sell it? Can i hold more than 1?
*Whats drop rate on upgrade item?
*How bad did they nerf King drop rate?
Rambus
04-21-2011, 10:35 AM
I think I'll go abou this another way
Old System Flaws:
*One NM popped Per Day. Allowing only 1 group/person a Chance at the item per 24 hours
*Everyone but the group who claims is left out. (I.E Now has 0% Chance of getting item they want)
*if theres even 5 other people after the same item, Assuming they don't team up (they wont). You now have a 20% chance to claim, and less chance at drop, Assuming HQ doesn't pop that day. So while you may claim, and have your chance, the other 4 people now have 0% Chance until 21 hours have passed. They're screwed for the rest of the day.
Old System positives
........................
...
......
E-peen...?
New System Flaws
*There are still people left out. People without a large amount of kindred Seals Don't have a chance to get their own pops.
*They reduced BB drop from king, Removed it from NQ.
*Forces you to do KSNM99, not everyone can do it.
New System positive
*According to Update notes (*needs Verif. now...) There might be a possibility for more than 1 Pop item per KSNM run. So players without 99KS can join a shout group with a chance to grab an excess one.
*Everyone has an equal chance to kill the NM. Seals or no Seals, You have just as much right/chances to pop the NM as the next guy.
*Less people left out per day as opposed to old system. More than 1 can pop per day, No waiting for Windows.
*Forces you to do KSNM99, Which have low chance at BB item, as well as a little gil.
Unknowns
*Will the Pop item be R? or EX? Can i Sell it? Can i hold more than 1?
*Whats drop rate on upgrade item?
*How bad did they nerf King drop rate?
old way better for bb items,
new way is good for d ring sure.
and all i need to make that statment is the fact they are getting rid of NQ drop and lowering HQ drop rate, the amount of lowering does not matter.
if you want to go and agure shout group, how meny people are really going to do aspid? the only thing good is d ring so that will be likey flooded.
Greatguardian
04-21-2011, 10:40 AM
Krabnuckle speaks the truth.
In other news, while I personally wouldn't mind seeing Crests and Seals be interchangeable, that would defeat the entire purpose of the victory that the Krystal-led Anti-Abyssea faction has fought so hard for. An emphasis on Kindred Seals means an emphasis on low level exp. Yet, despite the massive responses to the Anti-Abyssea threads from posters on here, I've only seen one or two posters in this entire thread commenting on the benefits this will have to low level exp.
Did everyone on that "side" really expect them to raise the level entry requirement for Abyssea? That was a player-conceived pipe dream, nothing more. But you made it abundantly clear that some players want a new reason to EXP outside Abyssea from 40-75, and they gave you one in spades. It's a crying bloody shame that the only people I see who are happy about this change are "Pro-leech elitists".
I'm not even trolling this time. What the *** happened to your convictions? The Devs did not give you exactly what you wanted, but they gave you the absolute best possible compromise between you and the "Pro-Leech" crowd. There are now plenty of reasons to EXP in the Overworld, and anyone who's interested in Black Belts or King drops will be doing so in order to amass Kindred seals. This is exactly what you wanted, right?
At least, I'm assuming that you were all telling the truth when you said you were simply concerned about low level exp'ing and the difficulties of a new player. It couldn't possibly be that you were just being jealous and spiteful of the people who were using Abyssea to leech. Right? Right. So be happy.
Flunklesnarkin
04-21-2011, 10:41 AM
Love the changes.. just felt the need to say that to counter out rambus's tirade >_>
Karbuncle
04-21-2011, 10:43 AM
old way better for bb items,
new way is good for d ring sure.
and all i need to make that statment is the fact they are getting rid of NQ drop and lowering HQ drop rate, the amount of lowering does not matter.
if you want to go and agure shout group, how meny people are really going to do aspid? the only thing good is d ring so that will be likey flooded.
As far as shout group goes, A lot of people will likely shout for people early on for the KSNM99, Meaning they'll need help since not all players have friends. Theres a good chance you could just join the shout for the KSNM (people won't be shouting for Aspid/Ada fights i hope), and have a shot to get a pop item.
Also, I could have Sworn i including the Removing NQ thing...
Rambus
04-21-2011, 11:41 AM
As far as shout group goes, A lot of people will likely shout for people early on for the KSNM99, Meaning they'll need help since not all players have friends. Theres a good chance you could just join the shout for the KSNM (people won't be shouting for Aspid/Ada fights i hope), and have a shot to get a pop item.
Also, I could have Sworn i including the Removing NQ thing...
I only see people shouting for KB KSNM groups for the KB path ( meaning no one will do apsid because everyone will want D ring)
the result of this update with meny factors that are put into it will make getting BB items harder, well egg anyway.
Krabnuckle speaks the truth.
In other news, while I personally wouldn't mind seeing Crests and Seals be interchangeable, that would defeat the entire purpose of the victory that the Krystal-led Anti-Abyssea faction has fought so hard for. An emphasis on Kindred Seals means an emphasis on low level exp. Yet, despite the massive responses to the Anti-Abyssea threads from posters on here, I've only seen one or two posters in this entire thread commenting on the benefits this will have to low level exp.
Did everyone on that "side" really expect them to raise the level entry requirement for Abyssea? That was a player-conceived pipe dream, nothing more. But you made it abundantly clear that some players want a new reason to EXP outside Abyssea from 40-75, and they gave you one in spades. It's a crying bloody shame that the only people I see who are happy about this change are "Pro-leech elitists".
I'm not even trolling this time. What the shit happened to your convictions? The Devs did not give you exactly what you wanted, but they gave you the absolute best possible compromise between you and the "Pro-Leech" crowd. There are now plenty of reasons to EXP in the Overworld, and anyone who's interested in Black Belts or King drops will be doing so in order to amass Kindred seals. This is exactly what you wanted, right?
At least, I'm assuming that you were all telling the truth when you said you were simply concerned about low level exp'ing and the difficulties of a new player. It couldn't possibly be that you were just being jealous and spiteful of the people who were using Abyssea to leech. Right? Right. So be happy.
telling people to go level in old area for KS??? that joke? that does not fix the dommance of abyssea did to this game.
Karbuncle
04-21-2011, 11:51 AM
I only see people shouting for KB KSNM groups for the KB path ( meaning no one will do apsid because everyone will want D ring)
the result of this update with meny factors that are put into it will make getting BB items harder, well egg anyway.
telling people to go level in old area for KS??? that joke? that does not fix the dommance of abyssea did to this game.
People who want Black Belt items will shout for all 3. If its not, Ask your friendslist for help. I'm sure they will. Build your own or join one!
Also, Leveling in Old Areas is quite enjoyable these days, Exp flies faster than it used too. Also, you can skill up crappy weapons for it too :D!
Twille
04-21-2011, 12:08 PM
The problem i see is that Kindred Seals are the worst of the "seals" to obtain. At low levels you're going to get Beastmen Seals, at mid to high levels you'll get a mixture of Beastmen and Kindred Seals, at high levels you'll be getting Kindred Crests.
There is no real way to farm just Kindred Seals. I did a lot of leveling back at the lvl 75 cap and have very few Kindred Seals to show for it.
No matter how you look at it, farming for Seals (of any kind) is far from efficient, players with the ability to do KSNMs will dry up quickly, leaving these items extremely difficult to obtain.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 12:39 PM
People who want Black Belt items will shout for all 3. If its not, Ask your friendslist for help. I'm sure they will. Build your own or join one!
Also, Leveling in Old Areas is quite enjoyable these days, Exp flies faster than it used too. Also, you can skill up crappy weapons for it too :D!
you can only skill up high end like 320 ish +? i think abyssea only
Soundwave
04-21-2011, 12:59 PM
Ugh this thread makes my blood hurt...
Octaviane
04-21-2011, 01:00 PM
The problem i see is that Kindred Seals are the worst of the "seals" to obtain. At low levels you're going to get Beastmen Seals, at mid to high levels you'll get a mixture of Beastmen and Kindred Seals, at high levels you'll be getting Kindred Crests.
There is no real way to farm just Kindred Seals. I did a lot of leveling back at the lvl 75 cap and have very few Kindred Seals to show for it.
No matter how you look at it, farming for Seals (of any kind) is far from efficient, players with the ability to do KSNMs will dry up quickly, leaving these items extremely difficult to obtain.
FoV pages in Cape Teriggan (5 pages total) at level 68/69 gained me 11 Kindred Seals, 4 Beastman Seals. They drop like candy now, plus, the xp is awesome and skill ups are great too. I see no issue at all in getting them, you'll just have to xp outside of Abyssea.
niwaar
04-21-2011, 03:46 PM
I'm not even trolling this time. What the *** happened to your convictions? The Devs did not give you exactly what you wanted, but they gave you the absolute best possible compromise between you and the "Pro-Leech" crowd.
Honestly, I do not see the "absolute best possible compromise". We wanted a few things and they did give them to us. A remedy to the old King system was really nice to see after all this time. However, to say its the best possible compromise is nuts. KS are something of the past. Even trying to say that this revitalizes the non Abyssea content is ridiculous. What it does is give a very small handful of people who still wish to pick up that Black Belt a reason to farm Kindred Seals. Oh wait, many of them already had to do this to get their belts.
This does absolutely nothing to encourage players to participate in non-Abyssea areas. The only thing it does, is make those BB items much harder to get than before. It pushes older content into the closet and limits the number of players who will ever see such content again. Even if these weren't camped even close to as heavily as they were 4-5 years ago, people still did enjoy low manning these HNM. That will not even be possible anymore.
The dev's had a pretty good chance here to make older content more accessible to players and give out incentives for everyone to participate in non Abyssea activities. They did not compromise, they utterly failed. There were many better solutions to these former Kings than the one they chose. Its sad to see them relegated to the trash heap like this.
Runespider
04-21-2011, 04:58 PM
I really hope they increase the level on the NQ/HQ mobs keeping the KS99 mobs the same. If for not other reason the hilarity of seeing people wipe to what used difficult first time NM fights.
No it is not.
Old way > new way for getting BB items chance.
If the old way is better then how is it you spent 5 years building a Yochi but couldn't be bothered to spend three damn hours a day camping NQ mobs for Black Belt? You finally decided to go after an egg after the system is now being changed. You obviously didn't think it was worth the effort to camp NQ with the drop rate being crap as it is so I'm surprised that all of a sudden it's important to you to go after it now that the spawn conditions are being made better.
Tsuneo
04-21-2011, 05:22 PM
I still don't agree with it being better, but I've come to realize that these people can have fun with their obsolete gear when we're all getting shiny new gear.
Flunklesnarkin
04-21-2011, 05:44 PM
ehh I've tried claiming hnm's before.. even a couple weeks ago i tried to claim adamantoise 4 days in a row..
could never manage to get claim...
I'd rather just farm up kindred seals than deal with the hassle of wasting 3 hours to not even get to fight something
Overall I could see this bringing more black belt items into the game than the old system... multiple kings each day vs one king per day... its obviously gonna increase the items hah
If the triggers are bazaarable then it wouldn't be a huge hassle to get a kings trigger if you don't have a huge stockpile of kindred seals
Dazusu
04-21-2011, 08:18 PM
Love the crying in this thread. Considering 90% of you cried for force pop, you don't seem to be enjoying the result of your endeavors.
Maybe next time you'll think before you ask for something you assume will make life easier for you.
darkShirou
04-21-2011, 08:20 PM
This isn't an improvement, it's a retarded kick in the balls to monks that are still struggling to get BB, and only a partial solution to the trolls who have everything handed to them on a silver platter. I can't say I didn't expect it of SE, their track record has been piss-poor forever. They didn't even bother to confirm whether BB items will still drop from the KS99's or not, which can only be assumed that it won't drop anymore. The mobs are still incredibly camped by huge groups of people, and now the zones AND the KS areas are going to be congested to hell. SE, this is a farcry from what anyone has wanted, to make matters worse you created these forums yet you don't listen to the player base or ask for their feedback before coming up with these silly and outrageous changes... Thanks SE, yet another reason for people to stop playing the game. It's no wonder you have to start merging servers again, you're chasing players away with everything you do...
darkShirou
04-21-2011, 08:21 PM
Been trying to get turtle for months, and the large group of campers I have to compete daily with has never changed, only increased in size. This update is pathetic and doesn't address the issues at all.
you do not that people will make shouts, assuming what people will do is invalid, and what if people shout when i have ls events?
what if hnm windows are when i have LSevent ? odds to see a shout when no LSevent (and on line) are way bigger than odd of windows open
it is only an improvement if you assume people have a large store of seals, which is not fair. so i call that an invalid argument.
you take more time farming for KS and trying to get BB drop with old system then new system.
old:
you camp NM for 3 hours, good chance of egg.
you farm 99 KSNM for small chance of egg.
new:
you farm 99 KS, small chance of drop.
you get pop item
you get chance of HQ drop.
you have even smaller chance of drop.
it is a step back
or you can only camp witch is less time then farming for ksnm seals ( TIME YOU HAVE TO SPEND PLAYING, not real time of omg we can do more then one in a day)
i got more than 99 KS killing monster between windows while camping ada and not a single egg on the one I claimed!
if you camp with >2 friends just split your pt in allis of 3pts to get more ks
Octaviane
04-21-2011, 08:25 PM
I'll take my chances with KS99's. I have absolutely no issues with getting KS and no issues getting the help to do the KS's, at least not now. Thank you LS :) Drop rates are less than 30% for BB items, but, I choose to look on the bright side. Good luck to all of us career MNK's on finishing BB.
SE has listened to all the people who have said there is no content outside of Abyssea, xp and skill-ups are improved substantially in the old areas, and farming seals for BB items or D-ring is another way to get you out of Abyssea. I am not anti-Abyssea, I love it, but on my terms and with friends of like mind. I do think however, that SE went a bit too far with it and I believe they are acutely aware of it. VoS, DA and BD will be lag-city for awhile but we will survive. :)
OOHHHHH! Question! I keep hearing about bandwagon MNK's, WAR's and NIN's. Are you referring to players who all of a sudden have decided to level these jobs from 1 - 90? Hence the price of Utsusemi: Ni going from 200k or less to 900k.
darkShirou
04-21-2011, 08:34 PM
I'll take my chances with KS99's. I have absolutely no issues with getting KS and no issues getting the help to do the KS's, at least not now. Thank you LS :) Drop rates are less than 30% for BB items, but, I choose to look on the bright side. Good luck to all of us career MNK's on finishing BB.
SE has listened to all the people who have said there is no content outside of Abyssea, xp and skill-ups are improved substantially in the old areas, and farming seals for BB items or D-ring is another way to get you out of Abyssea. I am not anti-Abyssea, I love it, but on my terms and with friends of like mind. I do think however, that SE went a bit too far with it and I believe they are acutely aware of it. VoS, DA and BD will be lag-city for awhile but we will survive. :)
OOHHHHH! Question! I keep hearing about bandwagon MNK's, WAR's and NIN's. Are you referring to players who all of a sudden have decided to level these jobs from 1 - 90? Hence the price of Utsusemi: Ni going from 200k or less to 900k.
Yeah, the jerks that have no interest in actually playing the jobs, they're just trying to take advantage of the sudden "usefulness" of them in abyssea. The worst part is that these people get "preferential treatment" by some LS's who go ahead and hand these people everything they want/need on a silver platter, while the rest of us who actually make these jobs our careers still have to fight for everything, and still fall short of the bandwagon wannabees.
ehh I've tried claiming hnm's before.. even a couple weeks ago i tried to claim adamantoise 4 days in a row..
could never manage to get claim...
I'd rather just farm up kindred seals than deal with the hassle of wasting 3 hours to not even get to fight something
And this is why they're doing it and yet the same people who cried for days and months on end about never being able to go for gear from Kings or finish their Black Belts or whatever else they wanted are now QQing that the way it is now is worse when they're being givin a fair chance to fight kings for shit that they might still possibly want.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 09:18 PM
Honestly, I do not see the "absolute best possible compromise". We wanted a few things and they did give them to us. A remedy to the old King system was really nice to see after all this time. However, to say its the best possible compromise is nuts. KS are something of the past. Even trying to say that this revitalizes the non Abyssea content is ridiculous. What it does is give a very small handful of people who still wish to pick up that Black Belt a reason to farm Kindred Seals. Oh wait, many of them already had to do this to get their belts.
This does absolutely nothing to encourage players to participate in non-Abyssea areas. The only thing it does, is make those BB items much harder to get than before. It pushes older content into the closet and limits the number of players who will ever see such content again. Even if these weren't camped even close to as heavily as they were 4-5 years ago, people still did enjoy low manning these HNM. That will not even be possible anymore.
The dev's had a pretty good chance here to make older content more accessible to players and give out incentives for everyone to participate in non Abyssea activities. They did not compromise, they utterly failed. There were many better solutions to these former Kings than the one they chose. Its sad to see them relegated to the trash heap like this.
I just wanted to point this out and i like one of the tags of this thread, evil genie lol
Karinya_of_Carbuncle
04-21-2011, 09:21 PM
If the 10 people who stood around a king pop spot for 3 hours instead went and farmed KS for 3 hours, chances are they would get *at least* 99 KS (not all on the same person, but over time it works out the same).
Also, NPC level cap will be going up, so for anyone who bothers to do that, they will be leveling their NPC and get more KS that way. Maybe not 99 per player, but people who have 250 now will go over 300, etc.
Rambus
04-21-2011, 09:25 PM
If the 10 people who stood around a king pop spot for 3 hours instead went and farmed KS for 3 hours, chances are they would get *at least* 99 KS (not all on the same person, but over time it works out the same).
Also, NPC level cap will be going up, so for anyone who bothers to do that, they will be leveling their NPC and get more KS that way. Maybe not 99 per player, but people who have 250 now will go over 300, etc.
who said I had to sit those 3 hours stright?
sorry time spent in old way would be a lot less then this craptatic update.
darkShirou
04-21-2011, 09:30 PM
If the 10 people who stood around a king pop spot for 3 hours instead went and farmed KS for 3 hours, chances are they would get *at least* 99 KS (not all on the same person, but over time it works out the same).
Also, NPC level cap will be going up, so for anyone who bothers to do that, they will be leveling their NPC and get more KS that way. Maybe not 99 per player, but people who have 250 now will go over 300, etc.
I just finished doing pages in cape teriggan: ~2 hours, 12 pages, 4 bs, 1 ks.
This update can go die in a fire.
MarkovChain
04-21-2011, 09:41 PM
If the 10 people who stood around a king pop spot for 3 hours instead went and farmed KS for 3 hours, chances are they would get *at least* 99 KS (not all on the same person, but over time it works out the same).
Also, NPC level cap will be going up, so for anyone who bothers to do that, they will be leveling their NPC and get more KS that way. Maybe not 99 per player, but people who have 250 now will go over 300, etc.
No they won't. 1 Kindred seal or 1 beastmean's seal drops within 5 min at beats if you solo.
On average 10 minutes for 1 kindred's seal, since both have equal droprates, so in 3 Hours you will get ... 18 kindred seals. Facepalm. The only efficient way to farm kindred seals on different accounts whose invo are full then have invite you when it drop so you can lot it. If you have for instance 6 friends farming for yourself, each will get 18 KS on avergae per 3 hours and that would be about 1 KS99 every 3 hours for 6 people wasting their time for yourself. If you have an alt, that himself has say 2 mules that are able to farm you totalize 4*18=72 kindred seals per 3 hours.
Keep in mind that Kindred seals are subject to treasure hunter (obviously) so you are unlikely to get the next right after the 5 minutes limit mark, which means that since it's not a super high droprate you will spent a few minutes after the 5' mark until you get a seal (that can only be a BS or a KS for low level mobs with level > 50). You should spend about 7-8 minutes between each seal realistically, or about ~15 minutes for a kindred seal. In the end you are looking at
- 12 kindred 's seal per 3 hours solo.
- 72 kindred's seals per 3 hours if you farm on 6 characters.
- 216 seals per 3 hours if you farm on 18 characters, good luck with that.
Good luck gathering even 6 friends to farm non stop for 3 hours just for yourself.
Basically your 10 characters in your exemple will only get the 99+ seals on average ( so your at least is wrong) and ONLY if they have a decent treasure hunter on every mob.
Seing as all of the HnM can be duoed or soloed right now I'd say it sucks plainly.
I feel bad for the noobs trying to get a BB. This definitely excludes every casual gamers from the BB scene for one ( who cares, if those care for z BB they are porbably not casual anyway), and since noone "exp" nowadays, newbs don't have KS, so the newplayers will not get their BB either at least until a LONG time.
Runespider
04-21-2011, 10:33 PM
Been trying to get turtle for months, and the large group of campers I have to compete daily with has never changed, only increased in size. This update is pathetic and doesn't address the issues at all.
You don't even need a BB, it's a luxury epeen item..and this new system will be easy as pie. Some people really don't deserve to get a BB, this system is so easy you probably will get one :( but from your whiney posts I hope you don't.
No they won't. 1 Kindred seal or 1 beastmean's seal drops within 5 min at beats if you solo.
On average 10 minutes for 1 kindred's seal, since both have equal droprates, so in 3 Hours you will get ... 18 kindred seals. Facepalm.
Guess you shouldn't of been throwing the KS then? I've stockpiled enough for 8 KS99 orbs since I had no use for KS, if you don't like the new system then maybe don't do it and use brown belt. Some players are so lazy they deserve to be brown belt monks.
ShadowHeart
04-21-2011, 11:02 PM
there are some of us who just like the time spawn camps the thrill of the hunt not necessarily the drops
MarkovChain
04-21-2011, 11:09 PM
You don't even need a BB, it's a luxury epeen item..and this new system will be easy as pie. Some people really don't deserve to get a BB, this system is so easy you probably will get one :( but from your whiney posts I hope you don't.
Guess you shouldn't of been throwing the KS then? I've stockpiled enough for 8 KS99 orbs since I had no use for KS, if you don't like the new system then maybe don't do it and use brown belt. Some players are so lazy they deserve to be brown belt monks.
8 KS99 is not enough to get a BB.
Runespider
04-21-2011, 11:21 PM
8 KS99 is not enough to get a BB.
If I wanted one I would be working on more KS right now, I like to work for my gear though so that might be lost on many here.
8 KS99 is not enough to get a BB.
luck etc..., with 8 orb you will be able to get up to 4BB and 2 2/3!
Greatguardian
04-21-2011, 11:51 PM
Honestly, I do not see the "absolute best possible compromise". We wanted a few things and they did give them to us. A remedy to the old King system was really nice to see after all this time. However, to say its the best possible compromise is nuts. KS are something of the past. Even trying to say that this revitalizes the non Abyssea content is ridiculous. What it does is give a very small handful of people who still wish to pick up that Black Belt a reason to farm Kindred Seals. Oh wait, many of them already had to do this to get their belts.
This does absolutely nothing to encourage players to participate in non-Abyssea areas. The only thing it does, is make those BB items much harder to get than before. It pushes older content into the closet and limits the number of players who will ever see such content again. Even if these weren't camped even close to as heavily as they were 4-5 years ago, people still did enjoy low manning these HNM. That will not even be possible anymore.
The dev's had a pretty good chance here to make older content more accessible to players and give out incentives for everyone to participate in non Abyssea activities. They did not compromise, they utterly failed. There were many better solutions to these former Kings than the one they chose. Its sad to see them relegated to the trash heap like this.
You guys wanted "An incentive to leveling outside of Abyssea". Kindred Seals are now relevant again, heck they're more relevant than they have ever been before, and they can only be obtained outside Abyssea from monsters level 50-80. That is the single biggest incentive they could possibly give to Non-Abyssea EXP aside from completely locking Abyssea itself. And that just is not going to happen. Would you prefer that they straight up paid you gil to EXP outside Abyssea? Added new items to Conquest Points? Unless they're adding Ridill, Ebody, Dring, Nlegs, Nhead, Abody, and Speed Belt to Conquest Points I think you're getting a much better deal this way.
At the same time, this does not harm any of the players who want to Leech in Abyssea. If they want to burn a job from 30-90, they can still do so. They simply will not get any Kindred Seals, and thus will choose to lose out on the option of getting Black Belt items and other King items. It is now a conscious choice that the player makes, and there are real benefits to both sides.
And just a heads up, it looks like a lot more than "A small handful" of people are freaking out about Black Belts. I highly doubt there will be problems finding someone in dire need of Kindred Seals. As for limiting King content, you have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what server you're on, but on Cerberus the only people who fought pretty much any land kings for the 8 years prior to Abyssea were all basically the same 2 linkshells (Which reformed over and over and over into what became the same 3 linkshells). Anyone who didn't want to join those shells never saw a single king outside of Nyzul Isle. This change will allow anyone with a KS99 orb to fight Fafnir, Nidhogg, Aspid, or King Behemoth. You're crazy if you think this is somehow making these NMs Less accessible.
Tannlore
04-22-2011, 01:24 AM
You guys wanted "An incentive to leveling outside of Abyssea". Kindred Seals are now relevant again, heck they're more relevant than they have ever been before, and they can only be obtained outside Abyssea from monsters level 50-80.
This is a case of: Careful what you wish for, you might get it. I love this part of the update. Forced poped HNM, long overdue.
who said I had to sit those 3 hours stright?
sorry time spent in old way would be a lot less then this craptatic update.
And yet you spent 5 years in Dynamis getting a Yoichi. Tell me how this logic works out where you had to do 2 to 3.5 hours of Dynamis twice a week for 5 years to finish a relic vs camping a NM once a day for 3 hours a day works out again?
Don't sit there and cry about how bad this update is and that the old one is better when you've commented on Magian Trials being hard for you to do because you have a bad back?
Get your stories straight man please.
ShadowHeart
04-22-2011, 02:19 AM
save the force pops for the new nm's hnms to come why mess with an old tradition for items only people on fad kicks go out to kill anymore
waste of time and resources /manpower to worry about the old stuff
blowfin
04-22-2011, 03:13 AM
You guys wanted "An incentive to leveling outside of Abyssea". Kindred Seals are now relevant again, heck they're more relevant than they have ever been before, and they can only be obtained outside Abyssea from monsters level 50-80. That is the single biggest incentive they could possibly give to Non-Abyssea EXP aside from completely locking Abyssea itself. And that just is not going to happen. Would you prefer that they straight up paid you gil to EXP outside Abyssea? Added new items to Conquest Points? Unless they're adding Ridill, Ebody, Dring, Nlegs, Nhead, Abody, and Speed Belt to Conquest Points I think you're getting a much better deal this way.
Personally I think the whole "Abyssea has ruined the game" is ridiculous, just putting that out there before I start.
However, I don't think that soloing for 99 KS on garbage mobs was exactly what people had in mind when they were asking for incentive to go and EXP outside of Abyss. I think a lot of folks were looking for the traditional partying mechanic (i.e. 6 players) as it still has a lot of charm to much of the playerbase. Particularly if you're returning, but hell, some people just enjoy that sort of thing and who are we to tell them they shouldn't enjoy that? Now, it does sound like you're very disconnected from that, I certainly am. A lot of people coming back, and a lot of people who aren't into the current endgame seem to want that kind of thing though. Not that this change to kings was ever intended to do that. You just seem to be saying that people have got exactly what they were asking for, I don't think that's quite correct.
Having said all that i'm now going to say all this, there are plenty of constructive things to do outside of Abyss, even before this announcement. Something that people seem to ignore is that there are very obvious benefits to gaining EXP in older areas at the moment, in particular Aht Urghan. I'm not going to go into details but if it's possible to get a decent rate of EXP anywhere out there in AU anymore, it's basically a licence to print money. The counter to that is you probably don't want to be in a group if you're out there farming for KS, unless you`ve agreed to have them drop to one or two people. I mean, certain BC's are still quite lucrative (some BC40's spring to mind) and make a strong case for exp outside of Abyss in the early-mid stages of the game, if you are concerned with getting gil.
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 03:49 AM
I think all but 1 person forgot NPC's were getting their level raised to ~95 soon. This will give a lot of us incentive to exp in the old areas too to level them up.
There's also the good chance that they might add more reasons to visit old areas in the upcoming teaser notes to be an addendum to this update causing players to want to be outside for more than just KS, but at the same time involve killing and in turn getting KS.
SE is liking going to "pile on" the reasons to leave abyssea, this is likely one small step. I commend them.
Really, I'm not going to go as far as saying i 100% remember something like DEV1009 being suggested, But i swear at one point i read the idea of someone suggesting force-pop Kings, and it being met with open praise. Now that we got it, its the same crying. It goes to show no matter what SE Does, people will always complain.
I hope the DEV/Rep who had to sift through this crap really reads this line:
This is a great update. People will always cry, Don't assume because they're whining that the majority of us don't like this change. Most of us can see how much of an improvement this is.
One thing though, Could always not including that bit about decreases BB King Drop rate. Could just keep that the same >.>.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 04:14 AM
so far everyone I talked to in game thinks this update is stupid, supporters of this update is a minority
no idea how you can be so blind to say otherwise.
you can stand there and say i am crying all you want, I am not a sheep I do not accpet something because someone goes "here". it is a bad update.
blowfin
04-22-2011, 04:21 AM
That`s funny, your supporters in this thread are very few indeed. I have to wonder who you actually asked and the way in which you phrased the questions.
no idea how you can be so blind to say otherwise.
Blind? Now you are straight forward attacking people who disagree with you.
I think all but 1 person forgot NPC's were getting their level raised to ~95 soon. This will give a lot of us incentive to exp in the old areas too to level them up.
There's also the good chance that they might add more reasons to visit old areas in the upcoming teaser notes to be an addendum to this update causing players to want to be outside for more than just KS, but at the same time involve killing and in turn getting KS.
Yeah just add leveling your NPC to the list of things to do outside outside Abyss. It`s not like there`s a lack of options between Magian, FoV, etc. And we don`t even know what the new Grounds of Valour system is going to bring. Make no mistake, people are getting plenty of options outside, but that sentimental notion of the 6 man party is something that people are probably going to have to let go of.
Staren
04-22-2011, 04:24 AM
Why does it have to be people crying or jumping on the kneel at the feet of the dev team bandwagon. Some of us love the idea and hate the implementation. They asked for feed back and we spend a lot of time arguing whether or not we are whining and should be thankful or that you're a fanboy and need to admit this isn't reasonable. I do appreciate the dev teams work but I think they should be listening to these comments and come up with another pop method outside of these ideas. Otherwise after a few months these will go the way of a lot of other content and become things people used to do but dont bother to do anymore like campaign, scnms, znm's, etc.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 04:26 AM
That`s funny, your supporters in this thread are very few indeed. I have to wonder who you actually asked and the way in which you phrased the questions.
Blind? Now you are straight forward attacking people who disagree with you.
I attack people? thats funny. I am not sitting here telling people "stop ctying" or "accpet it or else".
in otherwords i disagree i am being attacked more, and was first to be attacked.
I am not going to sit here and accpet everything that is giving to me. I am told it is good, i am not accpeting it if it is bad I am not a sheep.
blowfin
04-22-2011, 04:30 AM
I am not going to sit here and accpet everything that is giving to me. I am told it is good, i am not accpeting it if it is bad I am not a sheep.
Yes but you have plainly ignored rational posters in here, and now you are calling people `blind`. Don`t you see a problem in there somewhere? I mean, you yourself called for some decorum in here the other day, and now you`re failing to deliver on your own request.
And besides, any assumption about drop rates at the moment is pure speculation. Don`t get so worked up over something we don`t even know yet.
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 04:32 AM
so far everyone I talked to in game thinks this update is stupid, supporters of this update is a minority
no idea how you can be so blind to say otherwise.
you can stand there and say i am crying all you want, I am not a sheep I do not accpet something because someone goes "here". it is a bad update.
Can't really say i agree with you. You
shouldn't think "But this doesn't help me, so it sucks" and instead "Well, before only 1 mob popped per day, It left a lot of people out, Especially if the window fell into Early AM and people needed to sleep, Now everyone has a chance to kill it regardless of time of day, and TODeath, so long as they have seals to do so, Or can join a friend for it"
It may not help each and every person, But i think its going to benefit more people in the end than the old system. While the update could have gone without the Nerfing of BB Drop rate form NQ/HQ... I don't know what more to add. I'm getting kinda bored trying to explain this to you. You simply do not and cannot understand.
This Update is an Improvement, It won't be to every single 1 person, But it will be to the majority. In the old System, You had to take things like ToD into account (Say its due to pop @ 1AM, Most people have jobs and need to sleep, They're Screwed), That only 1 Group per 24 hours has a chance, (Meaning, Everyone who didn't claim now not only doesn't fight the NM, but has 0 chance at drop). Botting is null at this point since the major botters left HNMs a long time ago.
With this update, Each person has a fair chance to pop the NM. They don't have to wait for ToD, they can wake up and get an Orb, or wake up and Farm some Kindred seals while LFG, cause i guarantee half of them spend 90% of the time sitting in port Jeuno looking at shouts or browsing the internet waiting for something to fall in their lap. Basically they have the freedom to now chose when they want to kill it, and not have to worry about competitor campers (to an EXTENT), or losing claim and being screwed for the next 24 hours, etc!
Even though it won't benefit every single person, It will benefit more people than the old system. Which is an Improvement. Of course its not going to be an improvement to every player if they don't want it too/have no Kindred Seals, But for the most part more people will Benefit. Maybe not much more, but more.
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 04:37 AM
I attack people? thats funny. I am not sitting here telling people "stop ctying" or "accpet it or else".
in otherwords i disagree i am being attacked more, and was first to be attacked.
I am not going to sit here and accpet everything that is giving to me. I am told it is good, i am not accpeting it if it is bad I am not a sheep.
I don't remember anyone saying "Be happy or else". I probably missed it.
also, Look up the definition of Crying. Its not only about Tears.
cry·ing (krng)
adj.
1. Demanding or requiring action or attention: a crying need.
2. Abominable; reprehensible
Point 1 Seems to fit.
You just assumed by "Crying" i meant "Like a baby in tears" when it fact i meant option1 on the above.
Flunklesnarkin
04-22-2011, 04:46 AM
So far all I've seen rambus do is complain about every single dev discussion topic...
I wonder why he even plays the game at all lol
Tannlore
04-22-2011, 05:01 AM
It may not help each and every person, But i think its going to benefit more people in the end than the old system. While the update could have gone without the Nerfing of BB Drop rate form NQ/HQ... I don't know what more to add. I'm getting kinda bored trying to explain this to you. You simply do not and cannot understand.
This Update is an Improvement, It won't be to every single 1 person, But it will be to the majority. In the old System, You had to take things like ToD into account (Say its due to pop @ 1AM, Most people have jobs and need to sleep, They're Screwed), That only 1 Group per 24 hours has a chance, (Meaning, Everyone who didn't claim now not only doesn't fight the NM, but has 0 chance at drop). Botting is null at this point since the major botters left HNMs a long time ago.
This, exactly this. This new system will give more people more shots at chances to get the items. The drop rates were lowered because you can spawn the nms petty much when ever you pleased. This is definitely an improvement over the old system. Not perfect, but an improvement. I think people are just mad because it doesn't fit their idea of what might be perfect in their eyes. But at least it is something.
As for the drop rate, yes it has been reduced. However, by how much? I see a lot of QQ but can anyone provide any concrete numbers yet? An exact amount if you please? Can you? No, you can't because it hasn't come out yet. You may be getting upset over a lot of nothing. It might not be reduced so drastically you practically never see the items drop you know. Might be 40%, hell 30% even. That's tons better than a lot of items out there I can easily think of. Even some in abyssea that drop with blue !! triggered.
Reserve the complaints on drop rates until you actually experience the drop rate. You have no clue what the reduction is until you experience. Why get aggravated over an unknown quantity? In the end, there's a lot of people out there who will have a shot at an nm the either would have never gotten a chance at, or would have had to merc/pay to get items for. I'm glad they changed this.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 05:03 AM
Everything that was pro- this update was not rational
"this update is good because ill make more people make pts outside abyssea" is rational???? when in the hell did people say "I am going to level off X or y for BCs or KS?. that has to be the weakest argument for this update. Who even needs exp anymore?
the only thing i understand is I want this update so i can use my huge pile of KS for Dring, scew everyone else that does not have a stockpile. That is unfair and selfish.
The other "jist" that i understand is people see "king force pops - good" without caring about details.
then the last one:
"we are getting an update don't complain" It is not an update if old way > new way.
There is nothing rational about this update, same goes for the comments that support it. (speaking BB items)
Reserve the complaints on drop rates until you actually experience the drop rate. You have no clue what the reduction is until you experience. Why get aggravated over an unknown quantity? In the end, there's a lot of people out there who will have a shot at an nm the either would have never gotten a chance at, or would have had to merc/pay to get items for. I'm glad they changed this.
dont need numbers, no drops from NQ, lower from HQ, and unknowen drop rate for HQ pop makes it stupid for bb items
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 05:05 AM
Everything that was pro- this update was not rational
the only thing i understand is I want this update so i can use my huge pile of KS for Dring, scew everyone else that does not have a stockpile. That is unfair and selfish.
I'm sorry? As opposed to "You didn't claim, You're screwed!" not being selfish?
You don't really seem to understand the whole concept of "Yes, Not everyone will benefit from this, but in reality more people will benefit from this than the old system"
its not a perfect improvement, but it is an improvement.
Exactly like the old system, People will be left out, But with this new system LESS people will be left out.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 05:18 AM
I'm sorry? As opposed to "You didn't claim, You're screwed!" not being selfish?
You don't really seem to understand the whole concept of "Yes, Not everyone will benefit from this, but in reality more people will benefit from this than the old system"
its not a perfect improvement, but it is an improvement.
Exactly like the old system, People will be left out, But with this new system LESS people will be left out.
so why support something if the proposed change has problems? just because it is slighty better then it was is not a reason to support something.
it can be better and it should be better.
leave the system alone till you can come up with something reasonable ( to se)
there has been some good points in the past pages.
Flunklesnarkin
04-22-2011, 05:30 AM
How about no.. I'll take a halfway improvement to get the ball rolling..
Who's to say they wont add new ways to get these items in the future anyways.. kindred crest bcnm's maybe
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 05:37 AM
so why support something if the proposed change has problems? just because it is slighty better then it was is not a reason to support something.
it can be better and it should be better.
leave the system alone till you can come up with something reasonable ( to se)
there has been some good points in the past pages.
Because nothing is perfect. Someone will always find a reason to bitch or complain about something.
If the pop items dropped from Darters, there would be Whines form all corners of the earth about FFXI continuing to spoon feed people.
Basically what Flunk said, I'll take a Half-way Improvement over nothing at all. Theres a good chance they may add on this system in some way. You will never make a perfect system where everyone is happy, But i'll take a System with a few flaws, over one with a lot of flaws any day.
Does that mean i wouldn't accept fixes to this system? no. I'd gladly accept any updates/Fixes to this system that they want too add. But right now its an improvement over the old ways, even if its a small one, it gets the ball rollin' as Flunk said.
So, IN closing, I support the idea that this is an improvement, and its a step in the right direction. it may not be a perfect solution, but its a start. Plus theres a good chance Black Belt will be crap by 99 anyway, as SE hinted at wanted to "out-do" Black belt for MNKs by 99.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 06:45 AM
How about no.. I'll take a halfway improvement to get the ball rolling..
Who's to say they wont add new ways to get these items in the future anyways.. kindred crest bcnm's maybe
why do you think we are here? we are here to comment on the game and tell SE what changes might spark problems and to think about what they are doing.
this half way method does not work, they tried it with so meny things. They ether get forgotten or all of a sudden it is we cannot fix it because it takes too much time to fix it.
so now they need to approch things differently, get it right the first time or do not do it at all. At lest have well thought out ideas insted half baked ideas. This is not well thought out. I would like more details stated in order to deal with the lower drop rates and so on.
Because nothing is perfect. Someone will always find a reason to bitch or complain about something.
If the pop items dropped from Darters, there would be Whines form all corners of the earth about FFXI continuing to spoon feed people.
Basically what Flunk said, I'll take a Half-way Improvement over nothing at all. Theres a good chance they may add on this system in some way. You will never make a perfect system where everyone is happy, But i'll take a System with a few flaws, over one with a lot of flaws any day.
Does that mean i wouldn't accept fixes to this system? no. I'd gladly accept any updates/Fixes to this system that they want too add. But right now its an improvement over the old ways, even if its a small one, it gets the ball rollin' as Flunk said.
So, IN closing, I support the idea that this is an improvement, and its a step in the right direction. it may not be a perfect solution, but its a start. Plus theres a good chance Black Belt will be crap by 99 anyway, as SE hinted at wanted to "out-do" Black belt for MNKs by 99.
lets see. translastion : accpet anything SE gives us and call it an improvement, uh no.
I am not a sheep sorry. I do not accept polished turd. that is like asking someone what is better this turd or a polished turd.
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 06:54 AM
why do you think we are here? we are here to comment on the game and tell SE what changes might spark problems and to think about what they are doing.
this half way method does not work, they tried it with so meny things. They ether get forgotten or all of a sudden it is we cannot fix it because it takes too much time to fix it.
so now they need to approch things differently, get it right the first time or do not do it at all. At lest have well thought out ideas insted half baked ideas. This is not well thought out. I would like more details stated in order to deal with the lower drop rates and so on.
lets see. translastion : accpet anything SE gives us and call it an improvement, uh no.
I am not a sheep sorry
You really shouldn't translate things when you apparently can't understand basic English.
So, IN closing, I support the idea that this is an improvement, and its a step in the right direction
See this right here? This is me saying I think the Idea is a Step in the Right direction. Implying i think its a good start.
Does that mean i wouldn't accept fixes to this system? no. I'd gladly accept any updates/Fixes
See this neat little quote? This implies I believe the System isn't perfect, and would enjoy the idea that it could be expanded and patched in the future. but as it stands, I accept this as an Improvement over the Previous Methods.
it may not be a perfect solution, but its a start
Oh look? I imply once again the system is not perfect, A.K.A Flawed, But i also believe Its a good step up.
So i'll spell it out for you. I'm not sheepishly following and praising them for perfecting Kings, I'm praising them for making a step in the right direction. The System needs Improvements and adjustments, but As it is I feel is better than the old system, but not as good as it could be. Its hard to make something more accessible without making it too Easy. Cause if its too Easy it gets criticism like abyssea does.
Its hard to find a balance, But this is a Start, Its not perfect. I'd take this Small adjustment over doing it the old way. This System has its flaws, But they are less numerous than the old system, and in the end more opportunities for players to fight these NMs will arise.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 06:58 AM
See this right here? This is me saying I think the Idea is a Step in the Right direction. Implying i think its a good start.
I don't, they made 1/2 baked ideas countless times where they never change them, change them 4-5 years late, or claim they cannot fix it anymore.
oh hey! just like this one well i guess 2-3 years late is better then 5.
so now we get to tell them ahead of time, hey this will cause problems, step back and think about it, instead of accepting it "step in the right direction" could be wrong if they continue advance in the wrong direction. quit defending them, all it does is slow down the change.
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 07:01 AM
I don't, they made 1/2 baked ideas countless times where they never change them, change them 4-5 years late, or claim they cannot fix it anymore.
oh hey! just like this one well i guess 2-3 years late is better then 5.
Better late than never. I don't care how cliche that saying is. This update would have been very useful years ago, I never once suggested or stated otherwise, Have i?
You seem to just love to complain about everything. Why are you still playing this game? You hate your relic is outdated, You hate on every new update teaser, You pretty much hate everything that doesn't fit perfectly with your ideas of the game, and criticize anyone who has a different opinion than you or is happy with the game.
Why do you play? Why do you continue to give them 12.95/month just so you can hate the game and what they're doing with it?
Edit: In regards to your whole Save-face backpedaling there. There is no way they're going to say "Oh gee, I guess you guys are right, We'll stop doing this now". We have to accept that. Its an unfortunate fact. There will never be enough force of will, Online-petitions, etc to change that.
So while i do not entirely agree with this System in EVERY WAY, I feel if We give them suggestions and improvements for future updates to this system, We have a better chance of seeing it, rather than saying "I hate this, Stop npw".
For instance, Give NQ's their BB items back, and give HQ's their 100% again. This was an adjustment that didn't need to be made. the "SE giveth, SE taketh away" method of updates should have died in 2006 with that Dev team.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 07:04 AM
spaming replay -.- i did not have time to edit/ tune my post, you need to learn this:
so now we get to tell them ahead of time, hey this will cause problems, step back and think about it, instead of accepting it "step in the right direction" could be wrong if they continue advance in the wrong direction. quit defending them, all it does is slow down the change
that is why things have been movign slowly people even did it for FFXIV, look what happens
So while i do not entirely agree with this System in EVERY WAY, I feel if We give them suggestions and improvements for future updates to this system, We have a better chance of seeing it, rather than saying "I hate this, Stop npw"
then why are you fighting me, i pointed out that it makes it harder to get BB items then you say no its easier????
Henihhi
04-22-2011, 07:04 AM
Your opinions have been voiced over and over throughout these pages Rambus. Just because it's not good for YOU at this moment in time, doesn't mean it isn't opening up a lot more chances for other people. Either way, you have plenty of time before it is implemented to go camp kings for your ONE shot a day. So have at it! Because 1 chance for 1 person is better than multiple chances for multiple groups apparently. Thank god I have had this belt for a job i barely use for years because o wait- it was never that hard to get in the first place.
blowfin
04-22-2011, 07:05 AM
Better late than never. I don't care how cliche that saying is.
- Rome wasn't built in a day
- Don't look a gift horse in the mouth
- A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush
- The grass is always greener
Can I go on? plz?:o
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 07:07 AM
spaming replay -.- i did not have time to edit/ tune my post, you need to learn this:
so now we get to tell them ahead of time, hey this will cause problems, step back and think about it, instead of accepting it "step in the right direction" could be wrong if they continue advance in the wrong direction. quit defending them, all it does is slow down the change
that is why things have been movign slowly people even did it for FFXIV, look what happens
then why are you fighting me, i pointed out that it makes it harder to get BB items then you say no its easier????
Because it is Easier. Just because its not easier for you and your 3 friends who apparently don't own a single Kindred Seal, doesn't mean its not easier for those players who have never had the Time/ToD to camp old NMs (I know its not a strong excuse...)
And FFXIV didn't flop because people weren't whining about every detail, its that they did whine and SE still rushed FFXIV out the window in a Shitty-Still-Beta Crap-fest of no Content and Horrible Basic Mechanic Flaws.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 07:12 AM
Because it is Easier. Just because its not easier for you and your 3 friends who apparently don't own a single Kindred Seal, doesn't mean its not easier for those players who have never had the Time/ToD to camp old NMs (I know its not a strong excuse...)
And FFXIV didn't flop because people weren't whining about every detail, its that they did whine and SE still rushed FFXIV out the window in a Shitty-Still-Beta Crap-fest of no Content and Horrible Basic Mechanic Flaws.
read the update notes , makes bb items harder to get
blowfin
04-22-2011, 07:13 AM
read the update notes , makes bb items harder to get
Hwat? No it didn't, you're being extremely creative. We won't know if it's harder to get until after the update. /thread
Flunklesnarkin
04-22-2011, 07:17 AM
Nobody takes you seriously rambus...
after every dev update topic you run around like chicken little
"THE SKY IS FALLING >:U!!"
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 07:19 AM
read the update notes , makes bb items harder to get
Lol, okay
They lowered Drop rate on HQ (We don't know how much, For all we know it could be from 100%, to 90%) This Lowers it a little. its an Unknown
They Removed it from NQ Kings - I've already suggested this was a bad move, needs to be fixed/Adjusted ASAP, It was Backpedaling the entire ordeal. However, Now being forced to do KSNM99 (Which Drop BB Items, a Step anyone camping would never have taken), You have really lost nothing. Instead of your chance of BB form NQ, your chance of BB is from KSNM99. - This makes it a little more difficult. Slightly.
But heres the kicker, Instead of 1 Shot per day, You have the potential for Dozens of chances per day. If you have the Seals/Friends You can pop Fafnir 8 Times back to back, then pop Nidhogg ~8 Times back to back, Increases your chances to get a BB items exponentially.
Really, Until we know how drastic the Nerf to HQ Kings drop rate was, You can pretty much Think "KSNM99 = Old Faf, Chance of BB item" > "Fafnir - Middle-Ground mob. Drops stuff" > "Nidhogg - Highest chance of BB item"
They basically added a step in the process, but multiplied your ability to pop/fight the mobs exponentially.
You really in the end lose absolutely nothing unless you're sitting on like 20 Kindred Seals, In which case Yeah you're behind, But the other thousands of players in the game who are sitting on 500+ Kindred seals all now have MULTIPLE opportunities to pop/Fight these NMs.
So to poke the hole in your logic, yes, some people are still left out (Oh shit, I've mentioned this 1000 times before), however, There are far far far far far less people left out in this System then the old system.
Read what i wrote above, then read this. In the old System 1-Group. 1-NM. 1 Chance. per day.
new System. Multiple People, Multiple NMs, Multiple Chances. Per day.
Its not that hard of a concept to grasp. If you look at it from the point of view of "1 Person doing 1 Run" yeah, Your chances are slimmer, but if you look at it as "Multiple People all doing multiple pops" The chances are greater, The influx of BB items will multiply, Rather it be selling them, Or people with a lot of Kindred Seals collecting multiple pop-items and popping them back-to-back.
It benefits more people, and it gives more chances to obtain said item.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 07:19 AM
Hwat? No it didn't, you're being extremely creative. We won't know if it's harder to get until after the update. /thread
the current update notes makes it harder to get the egg esp, people be spaming KB for D ring im sure.
think about hwat the update notes say, so we are here to comment and tell SE wait think about this a second insted of OMG FORCE POP = GOOD.
as far as ffxiv goes, they ingored people and floped, wow who did not see that comming?
MarkovChain
04-22-2011, 07:21 AM
i swear at one point i read the idea of someone suggesting force-pop Kings, and it being met with open praise. Now that we got it, its the same crying. It goes to show no matter what SE Does, people will always complain.
Because you only see what you want to see. People wanted pop-Kings for their black belt nothing else. The next system will be about the same as the previous KS99 system with a slighty increase in chance to get it. It's right to cock block that much through KS99 for items like defending ring, but not for the item 1/6th of the population wants. I find all the reactions like "you wanted pop kind now you got it" dumb because if you look at it's a +1 version of the fail KS99 system. Before the next VU : 1500KS to get a black belt, post VU .. 1K ? And your friends want a black belt too. And your friends could have lend you 4M for a BB too., and guess what they could ALSO have lend you 99KS for the current system ?
Flunklesnarkin
04-22-2011, 07:21 AM
the current update notes makes it harder to get the egg esp, people be spaming KB for D ring im sure.
think about hwat the update notes say, so we are here to comment and tell SE wait think about this a second insted of OMG FORCE POP = GOOD.
as far as ffxiv goes, they ingored people and floped, wow who did not see that comming?
conceited much?
you are hardly representative of the ffxi community
Miera
04-22-2011, 07:27 AM
When you look at it, you have two shots to get the BB items, from the KSNM and from the pop also, people get a better chance at the DEFENDING RING and not to mention the Riddle.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 07:28 AM
conceited much?
you are hardly representative of the ffxi community
you are right, I know how to think and analyze.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 07:31 AM
When you look at it, you have two shots to get the BB items, from the KSNM and from the pop also, people get a better chance at the DEFENDING RING and not to mention the Riddle.
you get 2 chances with it now, go camp it then go pop the ksnm 99, cept you have greater chance if you get claim ( higher drop rate from NQ/HQ) and you do not know the drop rate of HQ pop under the new system, that is never stated.
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 07:33 AM
you are right, I know how to think and analyze.
No You don't. Please do not lie to people on these forums. You know how to be Negative and Analyze everything in an incredibly short-sighted way. You think only about how bad something is in regards to how it'll benefit you. Not how it will benefit as a whole.
The fact I've been trying to explain to you that old system = 1 pop per day, for only 1 person/group on the entire server.
While new system = Multiple People can pop the NM multiple times per day. Its looking at the "Big Picture".
you can't seem to grasp that is proof enough you can't analyze anything. I at least admit flaws in the system, You seem to act like its 3 steps back into the pits of hell. Its not a perfect leap into the right area, but its a Small step in the right direction. It needs Tweaking, It needs improvements, But right now its a better system than the old one, even if its not by much, its a Lesser of Two Evils that will, in the big picture, Increase the flow of Items from these NMs.
Denabond
04-22-2011, 07:39 AM
Wow so much RAGE in this thread. Key things you guys need to remember, we don't know if it will be easier or harder to get the BB items til its actually implemented. All we know is it will be a pop NMs now, NQ kings don't drop the item and have a unknown % chance to drop the item to pop the HQ king, HQ kings no longer drop it 100% of the time, and the KS99 might drop more then 1 pop item for the NQ king. The chance to get the items needed to HQ can be 1%-99% while the same can be said about the BB items themselves. Saying that they will be easier/harder is your guess at whats gonna happen. Other then the eventual flood of people wanting Dring, the rest is just speculation on your guys part.
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 07:40 AM
Wow so much RAGE in this thread. Key things you guys need to remember, we don't know if it will be easier or harder to get the BB items til its actually implemented. All we know is it will be a pop NMs now, NQ kings don't drop the item and have a unknown % chance to drop the item to pop the HQ king, HQ kings no longer drop it 100% of the time, and the KS99 might drop more then 1 pop item for the NQ king. The chance to get the items needed to HQ can be 1%-99% while the same can be said about the BB items themselves. Saying that they will be easier/harder is your guess at whats gonna happen. Other then the eventual flood of people wanting Dring, the rest is just speculation on your guys part.
I've already tried to explain the "Unknown Element". It didn't work. Assuming the worst is all a negative person can do.
Henihhi
04-22-2011, 07:41 AM
you get 2 chances with it now, go camp it then go pop the ksnm 99, cept you have greater chance if you get claim ( higher drop rate from NQ/HQ) and you do not know the drop rate of HQ pop under the new system, that is never stated.
The system now is not two chances for everyone. It is 1 chance server wide for whoever claims that day with a separate chance for those those who have KS lying about. New system = multiple chances for EVERYONE not too lazy to farm seals or to team up.
MarkovChain
04-22-2011, 07:46 AM
The fact I've been trying to explain to you that old system = 1 pop per day, for only 1 person/group on the entire server.
Did you voluntarerly skip the part where you can do KS99 whenever you want too, RIGHT NOW ? So it is DEFINITELY not one shot at a given BB item per day per server. If you are neglecting the KS99 part today why would it become not negligeable in the future ?
MarkovChain
04-22-2011, 07:46 AM
The system now is not two chances for everyone. It is 1 chance server wide for whoever claims that day with a separate chance for those those who have KS lying about. New system = multiple chances for EVERYONE not too lazy to farm seals or to team up.
Like the current system of KS99, facepalm.
Flunklesnarkin
04-22-2011, 07:47 AM
Like the current system of KS99, facepalm.
except current system doesn't drop the old kings gear in ks99 ;o
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 07:49 AM
Did you voluntarerly skip the part where you can do KS99 whenever you want too, RIGHT NOW ? So it is DEFINITELY not one shot at a given BB item per day per server. If you are neglecting the KS99 part today why would it become not negligeable in the future ?
Except THe entire discussion until 2 posts ago from Rambus has Been only regarding the HNMs.
So yah, I've never once made an argument about the KSNM99 system being not currently available. Did i? Maybe you misread something. I don't ever remember saying "KSNM99s don't offer a chance". Strangely enough my Entire argument so far has been in regards to how the HNMs work, Not the KSNM99's. So, Why are you guys suddenly bringing the KSNM99's into this?
Anyway, Have fun with that imaginary argument. I'll continue discussing how this is an Improvement to the HNM system like i have been this entire time. I know the current KSNM99 system still offers you a chance at what you want, But I was under the impression i was arguing that this is an Improvement over Old-HNM-World spawns, Not the KSNM99 System.
MarkovChain
04-22-2011, 07:53 AM
You are talking alone in your little corner I think because the main concern of 99% of the posters are not fighting HnMs but getting a black belt. I've seen you use the same argument about 1 chance vs multiple chance several pages ago, and I just destroyed it. You are using semantic, that's it. But go on discussiing with the other idiot, please.
So in your opinion, how much is it increasing the number of BB item chance per day on the overall server ? Here is my guess. Most of the BB seekers of today don't have KS because they have tried to get it already (nor their friends obviously), OR, they just don't have any. Before this was announced, why would you sit over 1K KS if actively seeking a BB seing as those KSNM are jokes at 90 ? No reason really.
GlobalVariable
04-22-2011, 07:53 AM
cept you have greater chance if you get claim
This System, He can do the KSNM99, Now he went from 0% Chance at the item he wants (Didn't claim!) to a small chance from the KSNM, as well as apop for the NQ. His Chances just went up a lot. Based on information we have and not speculation about drop rate changes to KSNM the chance has not changed. It looks that it was deliberately designed to keep the incoming flow of black belts to the server the same. Claim only factors odds for person who claimed, NQ doesn't drop post update, and KSNM already dropped before update.
Now would you both stop this pointless arguing? SE doesn't care which of you posts last and you sure aren't going to change each others minds.
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 07:56 AM
Based on information we have and not speculation about drop rate changes to KSNM the chance has not changed. It looks that it was deliberately designed to keep the incoming flow of black belts to the server the same. Claim only factors odds for person who claimed, NQ doesn't drop post update, and KSNM already dropped before update.
Now would you both stop this pointless arguing? SE doesn't care which of you posts last and you sure aren't going to change each others minds.
Well, Black Belt items stay the same, Every other drop from HNM/Kings becomes easier. This makes it a step in the right direction, Regardless :D!
Miera
04-22-2011, 07:56 AM
I'm not sure if I missed it or something or it wasn't said, is there a chance of you getting the NQ or HQ or do you have a choice to pick popping the HQ? I must have missed that somewhere
Rambus
04-22-2011, 07:56 AM
Except THe entire discussion until 2 posts ago from Rambus has Been only regarding the HNMs.
So yah, I've never once made an argument about the KSNM99 system being not currently available. Did i? Maybe you misread something. I don't ever remember saying "KSNM99s don't offer a chance". Strangely enough my Entire argument so far has been in regards to how the HNMs work, Not the KSNM99's. So, Why are you guys suddenly bringing the KSNM99's into this?
Anyway, Have fun with that imaginary argument. I'll continue discussing how this is an Improvement to the HNM system like i have been this entire time. I know the current KSNM99 system still offers you a chance at what you want, But I was under the impression i was arguing that this is an Improvement over Old-HNM-World spawns, Not the KSNM99 System.
wrong, you completely ignored me when i bought it up, and i did several times.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 07:58 AM
I'm not sure if I missed it or something or it wasn't said, is there a chance of you getting the NQ or HQ or do you have a choice to pick popping the HQ? I must have missed that somewhere
notes say this, do ksnm 99 get a pop item for NQ, a chance of getting more then one.
fight NQ, no chance of BB item, a chance of dropping HQ item
HQ lower drop rate for bb item
Miera
04-22-2011, 08:00 AM
Ohhhh~! Yeah I see it now. I'm one of those people who have to read it twice/three times for the info to sink in. ><
Henihhi
04-22-2011, 08:00 AM
Obviously Markov cannot read. The current system as it stands this moment is the ks99/claim kings systems. My god if you are going to quote me at least have a little understanding of what is going on. Next time i will be sure to only use little words so you people that claim to speak for the masses can comprehend. Oops- i used a big word. Current system = ONE server wide chance to claim for ONE chance for ONE person at a black belt item per day. So on a server of say 2500 people, that is 1/2500 chance at a bb item for ONE person per server. Yes you can do ks99 for more chances, but with abyssea fever,not many can be bothered to do that.
Now SE comes along and says HAI GAIZ MORE KINGS FOR EVERYONE who goes out and farms KSes. This is bad how exactly?
I am coming to the understanding that most posters in these forums either have an IQ below retarded, or are just so stuck on immediate gratification they cannot grasp anything outside the little bubble of their own screen,doritoes, mountain dew, and their piss bottle.
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 08:00 AM
You are talking alone in your little corner I think because the main concern of 99% of the posters are not fighting HnMs but getting a black belt. I've seen you use the same argument about 1 chance vs multiple chance, and I just destroyed it. You are using semantic, that's it. But go on discussiing with the other idiot, please.
You crack me up man.
My argument form point 1 has been In regards to how this is an Improvement over old HNM system, not an Improvement to anything relating to KSNM99s.
Right now, Regardless of your fail logic or Fail arguments, In regards to the HNM scenario, One person had a chance to kill said HNM once per day. This includes all Loot from said NM, Up to and including the Black Belt items.
Optional options have always been there, Such as KSNM99s. I however do find it hard to believe someone could be camping the HNM, and doing KSNM99s for longer than a month and not have a Black Belt. Thats another argument.
When this System Rolls around. People will be able to Kill said HNMs multiple times if they have seals. While some people do not have seals, It opens up a wider array of people who will be able to pop and Kill these HNMs, as in the long run chances are more than 1 of these NMs will be killed per day, More than the old system allowed.
Its not a Perfect Solution, and as GlobalVariable pointed out, Since we don't know how much the Nerf of HQ Kings was, or the Drop rate of HQ King-Pop items. We must assume It will Remain Equal for Black Belt Items. However other Items dropped from Said NMs will still be Available, Those not from KSNM99s. So in a way its a small improvement to those after things other than BB Items.
I never suggested its a perfect system Pchan, I only recognize its an effort, and step, in the correct Direction. Even if its small.
wrong, you completely ignored me when i bought it up, and i did several times.
I'd ask you to prove where you said anything regarding "KSNM99s" and not "Kings" but you've edited your posts So much it'd be a moot point. Cause i could swear to god this entire time we've been discussing how this update effects HNMs and their drops, not KSNM99s.
In that Case, I'll make it very clear what my intentions were.
My argument has been, and will remain, This System is an Improvement over Old-Camping Kings. My argument has never been about currently Doing KSNM99s, or how they meld with Ground Kings pre-Update.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 08:09 AM
My argument has been, and will remain, This System is an Improvement over Old-Camping Kings. My argument has never been about currently Doing KSNM99s, or how they meld with Ground Kings pre-Update.
if they said you need 500 ks to start the chain would you still be saying this? I started talking about this is because i do not accpet polished turds. it may let people fight kings more but who cares? well maybe some do, I don't.
All I am saying is this:
KSNMs will be spammed for D ring.
Egg rarely drops from KSNM but beard drops like candy.
that alone should show, "hey this new system makes it harder to get egg", and they are lowering drop rates on top of that!
GlobalVariable
04-22-2011, 08:12 AM
Well, Black Belt items stay the same, Every other drop from HNM/Kings becomes easier. This makes it a step in the right direction, Regardless :D!
Yeah I'm at least happy more people can be able to fight an HQ land king, something that never happened before for most. Sucks that BB just got harder for me personally but at least its just the randomness+usual not having members to help and not a claiming tool user or the fact I have to sleep. I still think someone at SE made popcorn before posting the announcement. And just wait, lv 96 or 98 belt that obsoletes it and the wonderful flurry of posts that come with it.
The attitude some posters have that amounts so saying not perfectly happy just wants gear handed to them is more irritating than any unpleasantness of the update. I'm deterred from saying anything because everyone gets lumped together into a "side" on it ya'know? Why's that happen so much anyway... /grumble
Karbuncle
04-22-2011, 08:18 AM
1) if they said you need 500 ks to start the chain would you still be saying this? I started talking about this is because i do not accpet polished turds. it may let people fight kings more but who cares? well maybe some do, I don't.
All I am saying is this:
KSNMs will be spammed for D ring.
2) Egg rarely drops from KSNM but beard drops like candy.
that alone should show, "hey this new system makes it harder to get egg", and they are lowering drop rates on top of that!
1) No, thats Stupid, Are you just going to make up insane out-of-context Situations to push your argument now? This is irrelevant because they're not doing that. If they did requite 500KS i would be against it because its insane.
2)You keep Bringing up the Egg. Doesn't the Egg have the same drop rate from KSNM as all the other ones do? Wiki isn't reliable but it lists Ada Egg as 17%, Wyrm beard as 21%, and Behemoth Tongue as 26%. Doesn't seem like that bad of a Spread.
If you want the Egg, You use your seals to get your Egg. I bet you'll get it if you try. I'm sure you can find help. You have (Theoretically) the same chance to get the egg in this update as you do Tongue, and Beard. You just chose your path.
People who want BB will be doing all three, True more people will be doing KB for Defending Ring, But it won't effect your game-play. If thats all your after, Thats all you need to do.
On a Side note.
I feel like i should mention this again, I don't think this is the perfect solution, i don't think its the best solution, But as it stands I believe this is a step in the right direction, Even if its small, Even if it only helps you get XItem and not Y Item. I've admitted countless times I think the System needs a lot of improvements before it can be perfected. But i also think it'll help more people in the long run. It won't help everyone, Nothing is perfect, but i think it will help more people.
Snipit
They did mention wanting to release something that out-dates Black Belt. I'll giggle when it comes out.
Don't think you can obsolete black belt or at least the next one will required you to trade black belt before hands, if you follow the previous quests logic.
In an interview a While ago they mentioned "not wanting to make Black Belt Easier to obtain, but create something better for monks to use." Something like that.
Who knows, We'll SEE!
MarkovChain
04-22-2011, 08:19 AM
Don't think you can obsolete black belt or at least the next one will require you to trade black belt beforehands, if you follow the previous quests logic. Best things that can happen is that with the level increase you get 2 more haste on the 5 visible slots making tiwlight the best for DD but black belt still has pretty awesome stats beside haste.
GlobalVariable
04-22-2011, 08:23 AM
You know the next belt with either be crazy pain in the rear to obtain, or will leave every black belt owner raging, or just not good enough to use over black belt/be a swap piece.
Miera
04-22-2011, 08:31 AM
I bet you'd have to go through many meaningless annoying Trials of the Magians Trials to upgrade you BB into a Black Belt +1
Must fight Maat 20 times and collect 100 said ammount of these Items that is Rare/Ex and kill a million of these mobs in such weather.
Denabond
04-22-2011, 08:39 AM
Or they will simply make it so you augment Black Belt through Synergy.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 09:53 AM
2)You keep Bringing up the Egg. Doesn't the Egg have the same drop rate from KSNM as all the other ones do? Wiki isn't reliable but it lists Ada Egg as 17%, Wyrm beard as 21%, and Behemoth Tongue as 26%. Doesn't seem like that bad of a Spread.
NO! egg is a B*** to get. I used 2 pops for it, farmed it with others, 20-30 times see 2 drops. beard is like drop every other and i do not care about tongue because people will spam it for Dring.
trying to attempt 99 seals for egg with its drop rates is too much, now you see my point with the 500 KS thing, i really think you do not have personal experience for that.
drop rates are too rare as is and they want to lower it????????? loooooooooooooooooooooool
Antipika
04-22-2011, 10:36 AM
u :mad:
Implying 20-30 trials is enough to state that something is rare. And lol as mentioning personal experience. Your personal experience worth nothing when all you did is 20-30 trials. Wiki is @ 16/111, and 111 is barely enough to confirm that something is "rare" as well. (not to mention the lack of reliability of wiki)
Now before complaining, as stated earlier, these drop rate could be heavily modified. We still don't know all the details.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 11:32 AM
Implying 20-30 trials is enough to state that something is rare. And lol as mentioning personal experience. Your personal experience worth nothing when all you did is 20-30 trials. Wiki is @ 16/111, and 111 is barely enough to confirm that something is "rare" as well. (not to mention the lack of reliability of wiki)
Now before complaining, as stated earlier, these drop rate could be heavily modified. We still don't know all the details.
have you done more the 30 ksnms? i love to know someone that has done more then that for admin
yes 2 out of 30 means its too low of a drop rate, (across 3 years i think) like most things in old game SE needs to learn drop rates they have in this game are super Horrid. this game made me hate those 2 words.
Flunklesnarkin
04-22-2011, 11:41 AM
Everything about the proposed update is fine...
My only issue is how to obtain the trigger items.
There should be more than one way to obtain these triggers.
Maybe a npc who sells triggers for conquest points
or an NPC who hands out triggers like for an ENM... sorta like the moogle who gives you a free warp scroll once a day.. maybe get a free trigger once every 5 days like an enm?
Bottom line is this is a good idea.. it hasn't been implemented yet so stop the Q.Qlery and make suggestions for improvement.
Force pop hnm's is a very good concept
NO! egg is a B*** to get. I used 2 pops for it, farmed it with others, 20-30 times see 2 drops. beard is like drop every other and i do not care about tongue because people will spam it for Dring.
That's funny because in the KS99s I did a long time ago I saw 7 eggs out of 14 pops. It's all about luck and that's it. Btw you still didn't answer why you spent 5 years in Dynamis to make a yoichi and yet you couldn't have bothered to camp NQ turtle in all that time as well.
New system is better for most everyone because it offers a fair chance to fight Kings vs only one Linkshel botting for claim.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 12:05 PM
This update is only good for people with stock piles of KSNM, are you one? "yay for update that benfits me"
Flunklesnarkin like i said ealier, you be happy if they said it takes 500 ks to pop one, "oh but it is pop now so must be better."
that is what i ment when i called people sheep, like you take anything just because it is givin to you.
Flunklesnarkin
04-22-2011, 12:10 PM
This update is only good for people with stock piles of KSNM, are you one? "yay for update that benfits me"
Flunklesnarkin like i said ealier, you be happy if they said it takes 500 ks to pop one, "oh but it is pop now so must be better."
that is what i ment when i called people sheep, like you take anything just because it is givin to you.
Enough with the negativity.. try to say something constructive.. or make a suggestion to the dev's
Rambus
04-22-2011, 12:12 PM
Enough with the negativity.. try to say something constructive.. or make a suggestion to the dev's
I have it was drowned out with "stop crying" and other such attacks.
GlobalVariable
04-22-2011, 12:32 PM
I'd like to see multiple sources for NQ pops and at least a small chance of bb items form NQ pop rather than their total removal. Instead I'll see posts about how easy it is to get seals or that this is my incentive to not get all my exp in abyssea as if parties will magically start forming in old zones again. Oh wait, those already got posted.
As much as Rambus is getting annoying the "suggest something" angle is a laugh, hot topics always wind up this way. Most posts will be pigeon holed into crying or fanboy early on.
Rambus
04-22-2011, 12:36 PM
I'd like to see multiple sources for NQ pops and at least a small chance of bb items form NQ pop rather than their total removal. Instead I'll see posts about how easy it is to get seals or that this is my incentive to not get all my exp in abyssea as if parties will magically start forming in old zones again. Oh wait, those already got posted.
As much as Rambus is getting annoying the "suggest something" angle is a laugh, hot topics always wind up this way. Most posts will be pigeon holed into crying or fanboy early on.
the easiest "fix" is not change the drop rates for BB items since you need 99 KS.
other ways around it is seal extange but i think a big issue would be people doing KB more then anything
Flunklesnarkin
04-22-2011, 01:07 PM
the easiest "fix" is not change the drop rates for BB items since you need 99 KS.
other ways around it is seal extange but i think a big issue would be people doing KB more then anything
That was a lot better than freaking out and crying over it lol.. hopefully the devs listen.
Crocker
04-22-2011, 01:44 PM
Way to many posts to read through them all so here's my thoughts on the matter...
KS99 version of the 3 land kings are harder than HQ versions.
NQ versions already had a stupid low drop rate and that should remain and not be removed.
So doing KS99 for a 100% chance at the NQ that drops nothing for a chance at the HQ that's easy compared to the KS99 version is just wrong.
Should Raise the drop rate of the KS99, Keep the same drop rate for the NQ, and lower the drop rate on the HQ slightly lets say 80% instead of 100%. Making the drop rates of other items a little higher wouldn't hurt either like the Defending ring and Strider Boots.
Henihhi
04-22-2011, 02:18 PM
Rambus do you think by spamming this thread the devs will take you any more seriously? It is more than apparent that the majority who posted are in favor of this change. Stop beating your head off the wall and screaming mememememe! until the update actually comes out. Or try making a dev suggestion thread. Honestly the more you post in here screaming about egg, the more it looks like you are only worried about one thing, and not the entire community you claim to be representing. Hell if I am bored one day, I will go to ksnm turtle with you for the lols- i think we are on same server.
KigenAngelios
04-22-2011, 04:16 PM
I could accept this change if there will be some sort of Seal Exchange as suggested by others. As it stands right now the Effort greatly outweighs the reward.
Linkzell
04-22-2011, 04:35 PM
IDk if this has been said or not,(I got to page 15 of this thread and got board) but here it goes.
Player: "I want a Kraken Club! but the RMTs are over camping it"
SE: Never fear, player!
SE moved the K-Club to BCNM 60. Granted, 60BSs take less time to get then 99KSs, but it is the same concept.
I dont see anyone complaining about the K-club. And, if you want something thats "not the BB, but close to it" like the Octave club... POOF, have a brown belt.
I support this 100% and can not wait for the update.
Henihhi
04-22-2011, 05:11 PM
I could accept this change if there will be some sort of Seal Exchange as suggested by others. As it stands right now the Effort greatly outweighs the reward.
And that is the problem. If you think farming KS really requires effort, you should just quit. What part exactly of smacking EP mobs or farming crafting mats requires effort? OMG i might have to farm or form a shout group! Lots of effort there /sarcasm
Greatguardian
04-22-2011, 07:13 PM
I'm still sorta in awe of this whole "KSNM drop rates are toooo looooow" stuff. I've done plenty of KS99, and I could just as easily say I've had a 100% drop rate for BB items (it's more like 50-75% really, I've never had a problem seeing them). Is that unusually high? Definitely. But here's the thing (Shamelessly snipping this from another Poster in another thread): The plural of anecdote is not data.
Do you know what that means? Your personal experiences don't mean a darn thing in regards to the actual drop rate in a global setting. The Dev Team could set the drop rate to 99% and you could still go 1/30. It would be unlikely, but it's not impossible.
Now, I'm not saying the current KS99 drop rates are super freaking awesome, but offhand they do seem to mirror the NQ HNM drop rates anyways. So what's the big deal? I'll tell you what's going to happen.
This update is only going to decrease the number of chances any one person/group has at Black Belt items if that person/group is consistently claiming NQ/HQ HNMs. Now here's the kicker: If a group is consistently claiming NQ/HQ HNMs, they should honestly be capped on Black Belt items anyways. If you are not consistently claiming NQ/HQ HNMs, and thus still need Black Belt items, this update does not negatively affect you. You are not losing an opportunity to get a Black Belt item if you are not able to claim to begin with.
Furthermore, this update significantly increases the amount of total HNMs/Black Belt items popped and obtained on a server-wide scale.
I don't need to hear about how "Getting KS is hard". It's not. I absolutely cannot believe that someone who takes pride in their Relic, while scorning players who get Empyrean Weapons in short order, is so positively averse to anything that requires even the slightest amount of time to accomplish. This was the same complaint you had about Magian Trials too and it's absolutely ridiculous. If these forums existed when the game was first launched, I would honestly not have been surprised to see you posting in every single thread about how Yoichinoyumi takes "too much currency", "is too expensive", and "requires too much time to obtain".
I also don't want to hear about how "Everyone is going to just spam Dring". That's Pchan bullcrap which just assumes no one has any friends. Given the absolutely massive number of people freaking out in General Discussion, in the Gameplay forums, and in the Monk forums, I swear there really ought to be plenty of people to team up with for all 3 Kings. Even around people who don't need Black Belt, I honestly do feel a bit bad if so many people don't have even a single friend who would be willing to give them their 99 KS to help with their Black Belt. My friends and I do similar shit all the time, it's really not a foreign concept (in fact, it must be a domestic concept if Pchan can't grasp it).
Henihhi
04-22-2011, 07:21 PM
Thank you GreatGuardian for posting this in coherent terms. I actually enjoy old content, so if anyone is in need on bismarck for ppl for a ksnm send me a /tell- hell half the time I am just sitting bored in port Jeuno til event anyways or fishing lol.
Brutala
04-22-2011, 07:24 PM
I'm glad I still had 1500 KS and was too lazy to spend them because gil had become obsolete. Now if I get a Dring through the new system I'll be the ultimate troll by having 2 on the same account, and thanks to the Dbox changes I won't even have to walk a level 5 taru to BD to do it. What a boss update!
I don't get how people can complain when the drop rates aren't known at all. How many non-mule chars are there on the average server? Let's say there is 5000 until someone corrects me, and each one farms up a measly 5 KS a week, you know, accidentally while questing or doing a bit of trials. Assuming all seals will eventually be popped before ban/ragequit, even if they made KS99 always drop only 1 NQ pop (instead of the "at least 1" SE posted), made the NQ drop the HQ pop only 10% of the time, and made the BB item's drop rate only 10%, the new system's HQ pops would ultimately be adding two and a half BB items per week, that's what, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of what the current system's NQ+HQ NMs are adding? That's with NOONE FARMING KS. It's easy to see how in reality even with totally butchered drop rates there will be much more BB items added than now. The only problem is that given a rational community nearly all of it will be tongues, but hey, at least those will eventually be obtainable for free. Ratonality aside, there are bound to be completionists going for Ridills (hell, it may even become upgradable) and they will probably cap out on beards before Ridills (unless the pop item/BB drop rates are as low as in my example above). Worst case scenario, MNKs&friends just have to "waste" a few KB shots on turtles and the beard is more expensive than now. Tongues will eventually be free in any case.
This only really hurts people who were first on Dring for a very long time, but they'll find things to level or farm instead of crying about it. Besides, still wanting this thing badly after twilight torque and dark rings is a bit OCD. I don't even think the people who spent all their KS got hit that hard. After all, they had plenty of time to spam wyrms while speed belts were still crazy expensive.
All I see is 20-mainjobbers QQing they'll have a few shots less at the ring if they want to ungimp MNK. Let me ask you this: if you really care about MNK but you ran out of jobs to level outside abyssea AND ran out of crafts you could speed up with farming, how did you even get to that point without sparing the 2-6M to just buy whichever items you never got from your KS? If you're generally burned out on repeatedly farming weak mobs, be it for KS or events, why even play this game anymore? Most events are all about farming. Besides, there are so many people who will pay for soloable gear/seals/empy items that some of you could have payed for all 3 items in the time you spent posting about this.
read the update notes , makes bb items harder to get
it makes it harder for people who can keep and use HNM ToD (not everybody can) and bring enough people to kill em (1THF for NQ if want to see item, 6-18 for hq, can been done with less by good players but most of em already have BB items)
That's funny because in the KS99s I did a long time ago I saw 7 eggs out of 14 pops. It's all about luck and that's it. Btw you still didn't answer why you spent 5 years in Dynamis to make a yoichi and yet you couldn't have bothered to camp NQ turtle in all that time as well.
New system is better for most everyone because it offers a fair chance to fight Kings vs only one Linkshel botting for claim.
because rng or sam don't need BB and lol bandwagon mnk!
another point that have not been talken here is "synergize your old gears"
if synergi can add good augments on abju gear some people will farm em=> more peole that dont need BB will do KS=> easier for people who want to join a KS team
I don't need to hear about how "Getting KS is hard". It's not. I absolutely cannot believe that someone who takes pride in their Relic, while scorning players who get Empyrean Weapons in short order, is so positively averse to anything that requires even the slightest amount of time to accomplish. This was the same complaint you had about Magian Trials too and it's absolutely ridiculous. If these forums existed when the game was first launched, I would honestly not have been surprised to see you posting in every single thread about how Yoichinoyumi takes "too much currency", "is too expensive", and "requires too much time to obtain".
Seriously this in a nutshell. How can you sit there and cry so hard Rambus about this update when you worked on a Relic which took you five years to finish and now all of a sudden you're camping an Egg? You should have had it ages ago with as much time as you invested into your relic, you could have had the egg easily and in much damn less time if you honestly gave a damn about going after it in all this time.
MarkovChain
04-22-2011, 11:36 PM
I'm still sorta in awe of this whole "KSNM drop rates are toooo looooow" stuff. I've done plenty of KS99, and I could just as easily say I've had a 100% drop rate for BB items (it's more like 50-75% really, I've never had a problem seeing them). Is that unusually high? Definitely. But here's the thing (Shamelessly snipping this from another Poster in another thread): The plural of anecdote is not data..
The drop rate is low and your post will not change this. Wiki is the only reliable source for this. Also you have never done those KS99, clearly. I fthe drop rate was that high I can tell you people would not QQ about having to camp dumb 24H-pop NMs.
Aliekber
04-22-2011, 11:45 PM
The drop rate is low and your post will not change this. Wiki is the only reliable source for this. Also you have never done those KS99, clearly. I fthe drop rate was that high I can tell you people would not QQ about having to camp dumb 24H-pop NMs.
People will QQ about anything.
A great example: this thread.
Rambus
04-23-2011, 01:21 AM
I'm still sorta in awe of this whole "KSNM drop rates are toooo looooow" stuff. I've done plenty of KS99, and I could just as easily say I've had a 100% drop rate for BB items (it's more like 50-75% really, I've never had a problem seeing them
you are lieing, lieing about drop rates does help get things changed. (if you are quoting egg from ksnm anyway)
MarkovChain
04-23-2011, 01:44 AM
Greatguardian is just trolling because he is not allowed on BG. Anyway, stock pile KS99 is all I can advice you all because we are back to "hard" game.
Cream_Soda
04-23-2011, 01:45 AM
Greatguardian is just trolling because he is not allowed on BG. Anyway, stock pile KS99 is all I can advice you all because we are back to "hard" game.
Again, weren't you the one banned from BG? lol
Camate
04-23-2011, 03:05 AM
Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.
Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.
Denabond
04-23-2011, 03:15 AM
Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.
Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.
Well I'm sure even with you saying this, alot of people will still complain about this. Can you confirm if the KS99 will drop more then 1 pop item for the NQ king?
Aliekber
04-23-2011, 03:18 AM
Thanks for the info, Camate! Tradeable pops is total win in my book.
Starcade
04-23-2011, 03:42 AM
Tradable for the loss...
You might as well just let these people merc again -- the only thing you've gained now the emnity of the "We Want Bots" Society of America...
Denabond
04-23-2011, 03:44 AM
Tradable for the loss...
You might as well just let these people merc again -- the only thing you've gained now the emnity of the "We Want Bots" Society of America...
How does the ability to trade the pops to other ppl = bots?
Dazusu
04-23-2011, 03:47 AM
Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.
Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.
The old-school end-game community called. They want you to know that they don't care.
Please reverse this stupid change. :(
Vandalhart
04-23-2011, 03:53 AM
Thank you for the clarification.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 03:58 AM
Tradeable triggers nice... I'd imagine they would cost about as much as a sky trigger after a couple weeks
maybe 200k
Catsby
04-23-2011, 04:05 AM
Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.
Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.
WOW! Good game sir.
Khajit
04-23-2011, 04:09 AM
Sky triggers repop every hour or two. 99 Kindred seals tend to take longer than that.
Glamdring
04-23-2011, 04:15 AM
Tradeable triggers nice... I'd imagine they would cost about as much as a sky trigger after a couple weeks
maybe 200k
now this is just fantastic! as someone who couldn't care less about every single post complaining about the "hnm" pop system changes I love this. Hopefully, tradeable means bazaarable and I can start gouging those HNMLS people who've been monopolizing these spawns for most of a decade now. As someone rolling in KS it sounds like I've got a new $ maker!
Seriously, I've got about 1400 KS in storage now, and I've been throwing them away in the field for years when i farm on my beast to make room for the drops I do want. I usually come back with about 40 ks after every farming session, if I haven't tossed them. Now I have a reason not to toss them and a means of $ every 3 days in addition to my farm drops.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 04:16 AM
Sky triggers repop every hour or two. 99 Kindred seals tend to take longer than that.
There are also more people who are obtaining KS at the same time...
hardly anybody farms sky... anybody and everybody killing random non abyssea stuff gets kindred seals...
I'm just guessing the price.. its hardly scientific... but i seriously doubt triggers will be rare/expensive
Rambus
04-23-2011, 04:28 AM
Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.
Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.
is there any plans to change the update notes based on what has been talked about here?
the change this opens up is allowing more people acesss D ring so meny people will do that route for that. from what I seen KSNM drops for BB items beard and tounge are really high (1 out of 2 or 3 on average)
but what is going to be done to counter the low drop rate for eggs?
Kindra
04-23-2011, 04:34 AM
After keeping up with the reading here are my thoughts.
I know most have said that Kindred's seals are easy to farm. That depends on luck though. After leveling 5 jobs the old school way and solo I (and this is just an example of some peoples luck with these) was lucky to even have 99 seals. While i camped my Adi/Aspi I also killed stuff for Kindred seals since I was going to do KS99 for my beard. 3 hours of camping got me about 5-9 seals. Some of us are just not as lucky as others with these seals.
Camping wise, and i mean the 3 hour camps of NQ/HQ, I will agree it's time consuming but at least you have the shot. Now this camping is also not from the days when kings were heavily camped. This is from recently. KB i got lucky he popped and I happened to be there and have friends online after only camping for 2 days. After KB I headed to Faf/Nid which I found to be heavily camped. So I moved onto Adi/Aspi. Spent about a month there, 1 week before the shutdowns and 2 week after that. It was frustrating to camp the Adi's and have Aspi pop and be claimed by someone else lol. But I stuck to it.
Now to say that these NM's are hard to get I do understand. But you still had the 2 shots at the BB item ether way. That is of course if you had the seals. Which is why I choose to do just the Faffy KSNM 99. I didn't have an abundance of seals. Then again I am pretty stubborn and focused when I am trying to get something done.
Here is how I see this update.
HNM Kings yes its only going to benefit 1 group per day. But the camps are far less flooded then they used to be. And you still had the 2 shots because of KSNM 99.
Seals wise some are luckier then others when getting these so yea you still get the 2 shots at it, but not everyone will be getting all these same shots as others. For some people the seals are just harder to get.
Ok soooo here it my break down for what I see from this update.
Farm 99 seals (depending on the persons luck with them this could take a few hours or a few weeks).
Do KSNM 99 (Get a shot at the BB item and also get a NQ pop item I'd say so far s good)
Use your NQ pop (No chance at BB item, and since we don't know what the drop rate of the HQ pop item is its hard to say if this is a good thing or not.)
Now let's say you didn't get the HQ pop item its back to step 1 and keep repeating the first 3 steps until you get HQ pop item. Let's say you go this route 3-4 times (just for examples sake) at this point you have used 297-396 seals (this is just for 1 person btw)
OK now you have your HQ pop item YAY!!! so we pop HQ. (The drop rate has been lowered and to what we don't know. But here is where I see issues. People have now spent those 297-396 seals and lets say that the NQ doesn't drop the BB item. Back to step 1 ; ;. Here is where I think that HQ's drop rate should stay 100% after all that work you should have something for all these efforts. But this also depends on what the drop rates will be lowered to.)
Ok now repeat process for all 3 Kings. To me this is far more time spent then just camping for a few hours a day. But I do have a friend that thinks this is a good thing because he wants Riddil (if this is not spelled right then sorry I can't spell most of the time anyway lol)
I am not saying that the Force pop isn't a good idea what I am saying is that spending all of these seals to get nothing for months on end is a bit much. Please keep in mind that this is based on just one person's seals and I think that maybe I have been on the short side as far as the saying just the 3-4 HQ pop items not dropping. It could be far more or less. :)
But if you take into account that this 1 person has say 6 friends this and you do this pop a few times assuming that the friends have lots of seals as well, 2-3/6 pops gives you HQ pop item and lets say that these Pops don't drop the item your after you would still be going through a lot of seals.
In short I think this is way more time consuming then just going and camping lol. and sorry for the wall of text :).
blowfin
04-23-2011, 04:38 AM
Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.
Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.
Well played SE, *golf clap*
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 04:40 AM
I think your opinion is a bit misleading kindra.. on average it will be less time consuming for players with the new system..
Old system was completely based on luck for claiming ( or maybe not luck because lots of people used bots >_>)
It left a lot of people out and for those people it certainly wasn't less time consuming.
Either way black belt is suppose to be semi rare... This seems like a compromise between accessibility to the NM's that drop the items and keeping them semi-rare at the same time.
The only people this update negatively affects are people who were claiming the hnm's 90% of the time.
blowfin
04-23-2011, 04:44 AM
Here's the thing, kings aren't busy at the moment. They are so relatively easy to claim compared to a year and a half ago it's ridiculous. So, what does that mean? The congestion is already gone from the camps. So why change things now at this very late stage of the game unless they are expecting more pressure on these camps again?
Denabond
04-23-2011, 04:46 AM
Here's the thing, kings aren't busy at the moment. They are so relatively easy to claim compared to a year and a half ago it's ridiculous. So, what does that mean? The congestion is already gone from the camps. So why change things now at this very late stage of the game unless they are expecting more pressure on these camps again?
There is always the chance the abj gear will become really good though the synergy augment system. Of course, I have nothing to prove this point.
Khajit
04-23-2011, 04:54 AM
That may be the case with adamantoise currently but Behemoth tended to have 17~ people all CCing me on off days and when late in a KB window I'd see a large section of those old endgame ls still clinging to kings as if they're relevant so I guess me vs 20~30 bots at minimum(assuming only 1 of the old ls is there) not counting the misc people whom aren't in those old ls.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 04:55 AM
Here's the thing, kings aren't busy at the moment. They are so relatively easy to claim compared to a year and a half ago it's ridiculous. So, what does that mean? The congestion is already gone from the camps. So why change things now at this very late stage of the game unless they are expecting more pressure on these camps again?
ehh maybe on your server.. on siren they are still camped heavily.. even with an average of 700 people online at any given time during NA time
I'll use my previous example i tried to camp adamantoise 4 days in a row a couple weeks back.. so thats about 12 wasted hours.. also during retarded times of the day.. in which i never managed to get claim.
a fifth day of not getting claim wouldn't be unreasonable.. ive been outclaimed many times
so lets say about 15 hours wasted or round it up to 16 hours for the time it would have taken to arrive at the camp each day
During that time you could have spent 16 hours doing magian trials and getting kindred seals at the same time
so a seal drops once every 5 mins .. 50% chance beastmen or kindred so we could say a kindred seal drops about once every 10 mins on average
10 mins * 99 = 990 mins or 16.5 hours... so for anybody camping an hnm and isn't getting a claim more often than once every 5 days this system is far better
Which would seem to be most people at least on my server... the same people always claim the hnm's.. there is always one group who claims behemoth because they are camping Dring
So if for whatever reason you dont want to spend all that retarded time camping hnm's
every 5 days or so of doing random magian trials or exp in non-abyssea are for 2~3 hours a day.. you'd get a 99 orb
doesn't seem overly challenging.....
If thats the hardest part of getting a blackbelt these days i wouldn't complain
Kindra
04-23-2011, 04:56 AM
I think your opinion is a bit misleading kindra.. on average it will be less time consuming for players with the new system..
Old system was completely based on luck for claiming ( or maybe not luck because lots of people used bots >_>)
It left a lot of people out and for those people it certainly wasn't less time consuming.
Either way black belt is suppose to be semi rare... This seems like a compromise between accessibility to the NM's that drop the items and keeping them semi-rare at the same time.
The only people this update negatively affects are people who were claiming the hnm's 90% of the time.
While I understand what your saying here I also see that the Kings are not being camped as much as they they used to be. Had this system been put into place when the kings were so heavily camped I think it would have been more excepted then it is being now. I do agree BB should be rare. But I took the time to camp mine the old way and in all honesty I got lucky that it only took me abut a month lol. I didn't have to compete with other MNKs for the BB items and I have friends that helped :).
I wasn't trying to be Misleading all I was doing is saying what I see. Basicly how I feel about it :). Not everyone will agree that is what makes us all Unique :)
Kindra
04-23-2011, 04:57 AM
ehh maybe on your server.. on siren they are still camped heavily.. even with an average of 700 people online at any given time during NA time
I'll use my previous example i tried to camp adamantoise 4 days in a row a couple weeks back.. so thats about 12 wasted hours.. also during retarded times of the day.. in which i never managed to get claim.
a fifth day of not getting claim wouldn't be unreasonable.. ive been outclaimed many times
so lets say about 15 hours wasted or round it up to 16 hours for the time it would have taken to arrive at the camp each day
During that time you could have spent 16 hours doing magian trials and getting kindred seals at the same time
so a seal drops once every 5 mins .. 50% chance beastmen or kindred so we could say a kindred seal drops about once every 10 mins on average
10 mins * 99 = 990 mins or 16.5 hours... so for anybody camping an hnm and isn't getting a claim more often than once every 5 days this system is far better
Which would seem to be most people at least on my server... the same people always claim the hnm's.. there is always one group who claims behemoth because they are camping Dring
So if for whatever reason you dont want to spend all that retarded time camping hnm's
every 5 days or so of doing random magian trials or exp in non-abyssea are for 2~3 hours a day.. you'd get a 99 orb
doesn't seem overly challenging.....
If thats the hardest part of getting a blackbelt these days i wouldn't complain
Again some people don't get a seal every 5- 10 mins lol. like I said in my post before I spent my time at Adi killing mobs and was lucky to get the 5-9 seals that I got.
*edited 5-10 mins I was typing to fast lol
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 05:00 AM
Just to clarify some questions that have been popping up regarding these adjustments, KSNM99 BCs will continue to drop black belt-related quest items.
Also, another bit of important information you might like to know, the triggers needed to spawn Fafnir/Behemoth/Adamantoise will be tradeable.
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
So all those people complaining they don't have seals, Now have the option to purchase the Pop item too! 1 Less problem.
They'll still complain though
watch them.
Kindra
04-23-2011, 05:03 AM
Prob with that is not everyone is going to be able to afford the prices though lol. Not complaining just pointing out that its not really something some will look forward too lol.
Krisan
04-23-2011, 05:04 AM
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
So all those people complaining they don't have seals, Now have the option to purchase the Pop item too! 1 Less problem.
They'll still complain though
watch them.
Being able to purchase the items actually did make this tremendously less of a hassle.. Though you're right, people will still complain.
Prob with that is not everyone is going to be able to afford the prices though lol. Not complaining just pointing out that its not really something some will look forward too lol.
I'd say it's arguably easier to farm gil than seals.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 05:04 AM
Even if it was 7 or 8 days of doing magian trials to get an orb.. it would still be better for the people who are never able to get claim.
2 shots at a blackbelt item per ks99 orb is better than 1 shot from a ks99 orb and 0% chance at kings gear / BB item
Denabond
04-23-2011, 05:07 AM
Hmmmm i wonder if the the NQ pops will be tradeable, will the HQ king pops be tradeable as well. Sure the fact that he didn't say the HQ pops were tradeable would mean they would be R/E, but its worth a mention.
Kindra
04-23-2011, 05:08 AM
Please don't think I am saying i hate the update. I am just looking at both sides of the coin. I see how it benifits and I see how it doesn't. Either way it really doesn't effect me in the least lol. I am just trying to point out how some aren't as lucky with KS drops and such and that I can see where they are coming from :).
Like I said if this had been put into place back when they were dominated by HNM shells I don't think there would have been this much dismay over it. :)
blowfin
04-23-2011, 05:12 AM
That may be the case with adamantoise currently but Behemoth tended to have 17~ people all CCing me on off days and when late in a KB window I'd see a large section of those old endgame ls still clinging to kings as if they're relevant so I guess me vs 20~30 bots at minimum(assuming only 1 of the old ls is there) not counting the misc people whom aren't in those old ls.
Yes but the pressure is still easing, the problem was gradually fixing itself. Again, why would they make changes unless they expected the content to become more relevant again?
And sorry I don't usually crystal ball but i'm becoming rather convinced they expect demand for kings to go up post update.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 05:19 AM
Hmmmm i wonder if the the NQ pops will be tradeable, will the HQ king pops be tradeable as well. Sure the fact that he didn't say the HQ pops were tradeable would mean they would be R/E, but its worth a mention.
Well camate only mentioned the fafnir / adamantoise / behemoth triggers as being tradeable
HQ will probably be rare/ex although i think those should be tradeable as well
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 05:24 AM
Well camate only mentioned the fafnir / adamantoise / behemoth triggers as being tradeable
HQ will probably be rare/ex although i think those should be tradeable as well
I Think the idea is wanting players to work for the kings. You can buy NQ, but not HQ. Similar to how in Abyssea you can buy a lot of NQ pops, But you need Key Items for HQ pops.
Again, Its an attempt to create some balance. If they came out and handed everyone a pop on a silver platter the "hard-core" crowd would come and whine they're making the game too easy! (cause you know, Camping an NM that spawned once a day was sooooooooooooo hard. Cry more), Where as, If they made it too difficult, the Casuals would whine its still too hard.
Its harder to create a balance than people think, Too easy, people complain. Too Hard? People complain. Perfect balance? PEOPLE COMPLAIN.
This is why I don't envy MMO Developers. People are whiny ungrateful crybabies no matter what you do to satisfy them. Its like trying to keep a bunch of pre-schoolers happy, It doesn't work. They just keep whining. IT NEVER STOPS.
One of them is thirsty, you give them a juice. Now everyone else wants juice, Even if they're not thirsty, they just want it because someone else got it. (Job Adjustments. Hint hint)
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 05:30 AM
I can live with buying NQ pops and farming a HQ one
Its just a minor annoyance having to go out and pop a HQ for somebody when you could just give them the trigger.
Greatguardian
04-23-2011, 05:35 AM
Greatguardian is just trolling because he is not allowed on BG. Anyway, stock pile KS99 is all I can advice you all because we are back to "hard" game.
What the shit is this? Lol. You're the one banned from BG, not me.
Also, Wiki is total crap for determining the drop rates of something =/. How often do you see people reporting their drop rates? The Hills Are Alive's Drop% for Adamanoitse Egg is based off of only 111 samples. The NQ HNM Drop% for Adamantoise Egg is based off of even less, 105 samples.The people who report their drop rates also tend to be the outliers who have had either good streaks or bad streaks anyways, which will always skew the end result.
As for Rambus, yes I'm talking about the Aspid KSNM. Personally, I've not noticed any difference in drop rates between the 3 and it seems counter-intuitive to have different drop rates for BB items between the 3 KS99s anyways. Say "Nuh uhh" all you want, it doesn't change the fact that I have had a significantly different experience than yours, and that neither of our experiences can be said to be representative of the norm anyways.
Kindra
04-23-2011, 05:37 AM
In the end though all this comes down to we don't know what the drop rates and such will be. So this argument ove #'s of seals and time and all that may not even be a factor. I think that we should all just wait and see what the drop rates and such will be then go about arguing over it all lol. I do think that this update has its up and downs. But the ups may out number the downs in the end.
Ups that I see : forced pop, only have to fight to trade the ???'s lol. But you are all right at least there is a better shot at getting the items then before :).
Downs : (these depend on what the drops rates are) numbers of seals you have to go through to get to HQ and the drop rates of the pop items on NQ and BB items on HQ. If the drop rates aren't to bad then this won't be a factor at all :)
Dazusu
04-23-2011, 05:55 AM
I can start gouging those HNMLS people who've been monopolizing these spawns
You didn't think that one through, did you? The HNMLS people who've bene monopolising these spawns for the best part of a decade already have all the drops they want from them. The only people you can try gouge are those who were too cheap to buy Black belt items, etc in the first place.
The "Making money from Kings" ship sailed years ago.
RaenRyong
04-23-2011, 06:00 AM
People who enjoyed HNMs are in the extreme minority. It is time for that to be phased out entirely.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 06:04 AM
I wonder if they are going to eventually force pop tiamat / jormy
edit.. vrtra too ;o
Greatguardian
04-23-2011, 06:08 AM
I wonder if they are going to eventually force pop tiamat / jormy
edit.. vrtra too ;o
Aren't at least 2/3 of those wandering up at all times anyways? Free Tiamats aren't even that rare any more either.
Amen.
HNM hunting on this game was by far the most boring stupid and retarded game play element, and it's about time it got changed. Wholeheartidly support this change and may Square Enix never ever again subject their players to such torture.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 06:14 AM
Aren't at least 2/3 of those wandering up at all times anyways? Free Tiamats aren't even that rare any more either.
Yah.. i've killed tiamat a few times randomly..
would be nice to farm up say a bunch of herald's gaiters or cashmere threads or mercurial poles at the same time
Alhanelem
04-23-2011, 06:30 AM
I can't comprehend why anyone would complain about this. Basically, these NMs will appear a little more often, people can get what they need from them and then move on instead of having to camp them for weeks at a time, botting will be eradicated, and the whole experience will be a lot less stressful and more fun. Most people have tons of seals lying around doing nothing, and MNKs will have a better shot at their black belts. You can fight the NMs on your own time instead of wasting up to 3 hours or even more out of every day standing around doing nothing while you camp the NM.
Someone care to give me a logical, rational explanation as to why this ISN"T a good thing?
The NM pops are tradable, and the blackbelt items still drop from the KS99. As far as I can tell, everybody wins.
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 06:38 AM
I can't comprehend why anyone would complain about this. Basically, these NMs will appear a little more often, people can get what they need from them and then move on instead of having to camp them for weeks at a time, botting will be eradicated, and the whole experience will be a lot less stressful and more fun. Most people have tons of seals lying around doing nothing, and MNKs will have a better shot at their black belts. You can fight the NMs on your own time instead of wasting up to 3 hours or even more out of every day standing around doing nothing while you camp the NM.
Someone care to give me a logical, rational explanation as to why this ISN"T a good thing?
The NM pops are tradable, and the blackbelt items still drop from the KS99. As far as I can tell, everybody wins.
You see Billy, Some people in life are born different from others. Some doctors believe its due to less oxygen... Ah nevermind.
I think most of them simply cannot grasp the concept on how this is an improvement. Most seem to think of in a vacuum. I.E They don't take into account mutliple people after the same NM, they don't take into account this system removes the need for ToD< and allows multiple pops per day, They just try to compare it 1 for 1.
I.E their mind set is "Everyone can do KSNM99 for BB item, and I Can kill fafnir today at a shot for a BB item" in the new system "Everyone can do KSNM99 for BB item, but Now fafnir doesn't drop it! This is a nerf!"
instead of thinking about the new update as, "Now everyone can do KSNM99, and everyone can kill Fafnir for a Shot at Nidhogg, who holds a better drop rate on BB item! This way, Everyone has a shot to kill Fafnir and Nidhogg! Unlike the old system where Nid only spawned once every ~3(?)~7 Days, and both of them could only be killed once per day by 1 group, Now multiple people have the chance to kill them! Regardless of Time of Day, last Death, Etc"
Also, Rather some of them admit it, Its also because They miss the E-peen days of claiming mobs over other people, and then pretty much laughing at those people who weren't fortunate enough to claim. its rather Cynical.
Dazusu
04-23-2011, 07:44 AM
People who enjoyed HNMs are in the extreme minority. It is time for that to be phased out entirely.
Where'd you get that data from? Your backside?
I think you'll find the casual noobs just cry louder and cry more for what they want. Most of the HNM fans didn't bother to post against a wall of ignorance. That was my downfall.
I wonder if they are going to eventually force pop tiamat / jormy
edit.. vrtra too ;o
Because people camp those NMs, don't they?
I can't comprehend why anyone would complain about this.
Is it really hard to understand that people don't want to farm Kindred Seals for 8 hours to pop a Fafnir, for the chance at popping a Nidhogg, King Behemoth or Aspidochelone?
They are free popping daily until the next update. Once it hits, and everyone expends their stockpile of Kindred Seals, you're going to wait a whole lot longer, and do a lot more work to be able to kill the NMs which popped every day previously, and are arguably going to be a lot more redundant after the next level increase.
If you can't understand that, then you're a lost cause.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 07:50 AM
It's not about whether or not people camp them imo
It's more about going out to fight something and not having to wait hours for it to show up...
tiamat is probably the most camped of the group... but some people do farm vrtra to make juogi's
and why leave jormy out >_>
Daremo
04-23-2011, 08:21 AM
I've seen very few people actually liking and wishing for the old system. Most people seem to be saying, "The old system sucked, and this new proposal sucks in entirely new ways." A punch in the nose might beat a kick in the nuts, but they both still hurt. The old way being ass doesn't make the new deal boy oh boy gonna wet me pants awesome by default, by any means. Karbuncle, you complaining about complaining seems like a half grasp of reality. You get that 300,000 players are going to have 300,000 different(but sometimes overlapping) ideas of what the game should be like, and that people aren't going to keep quiet when something they don't like comes along, yet you act like people speaking their mind is reprehensible somehow. It's reality. You may as well complain that the sun only shines during the day, and why's it got to get so dark at night, anyway. SE isn't going to please everyone. The people who aren't pleased aren't going to keep quiet about it, nor should they. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion since SE would have never realised that lots and lots of people loathed the old King system. So quit complaining about the complaining and suck it up, while I try to find my way out of the metaphysical knot in the universe that my complaining about your complaining about people complaining seems to have caused, which is now making my watch run backwards. ... Cool. Yet... disturbing.
That said, the NQ pops being tradable goes a long way to alleviating my concerns about those with few seals or lacking in human resources(at least until HQ pop drop rates are in). I had considered the possibility of tradable pops early on, but thought there was no way SE would go for it. I'm rarely so pleased to be proven wrong. I hope tradable in this case means AHable, so consistent and visible pricing can take place. People tend to get wild ideas about what stuff is worth when they have nothing to compare it to.
AtrixWolfe
04-23-2011, 08:39 AM
Defending ring for everyone \o/
Now if only trotter boots NM were on the list /sad :(
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 08:49 AM
Defending ring for everyone \o/
Now if only trotter boots NM were on the list /sad :(
skadi feet aren't that hard to farm up anymore.. much better than camping simurgh imo
AtrixWolfe
04-23-2011, 08:56 AM
skadi feet aren't that hard to farm up anymore.. much better than camping simurgh imo
Aye I need to find someone to do it with haha
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 09:05 AM
Aye I need to find someone to do it with haha
took about 2 weeks of daily salvage for a group of 3 to get their skadi feets.. thats my experience anyways after salvage update
AtrixWolfe
04-23-2011, 09:06 AM
took about 2 weeks of daily salvage for a group of 3 to get their skadi feets.. thats my experience anyways after salvage update
Thanks :D Good to have some good info on it.
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 09:09 AM
I've seen very few people actually liking and wishing for the old system. Most people seem to be saying, "The old system sucked, and this new proposal sucks in entirely new ways." A punch in the nose might beat a kick in the nuts, but they both still hurt. The old way being ass doesn't make the new deal boy oh boy gonna wet me pants awesome by default, by any means. Karbuncle, you complaining about complaining seems like a half grasp of reality. You get that 300,000 players are going to have 300,000 different(but sometimes overlapping) ideas of what the game should be like, and that people aren't going to keep quiet when something they don't like comes along, yet you act like people speaking their mind is reprehensible somehow. It's reality. You may as well complain that the sun only shines during the day, and why's it got to get so dark at night, anyway. SE isn't going to please everyone. The people who aren't pleased aren't going to keep quiet about it, nor should they. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion since SE would have never realised that lots and lots of people loathed the old King system. So quit complaining about the complaining and suck it up, while I try to find my way out of the metaphysical knot in the universe that my complaining about your complaining about people complaining seems to have caused, which is now making my watch run backwards. ... Cool. Yet... disturbing.
That said, the NQ pops being tradable goes a long way to alleviating my concerns about those with few seals or lacking in human resources(at least until HQ pop drop rates are in). I had considered the possibility of tradable pops early on, but thought there was no way SE would go for it. I'm rarely so pleased to be proven wrong. I hope tradable in this case means AHable, so consistent and visible pricing can take place. People tend to get wild ideas about what stuff is worth when they have nothing to compare it to.
I'd take a Punch in the nose (New System), over kick in the nuts (Old System)
Theres the "Vacuum" logic i was talking about. "New system has flaws, and old system has flaws, Therefore This sucks and is a backstep still".
There are variable degrees of "Suck" that most of the vacuum-logic arguments are leaving out. Maybe you didn't read anything outside of my 1 post, can't blame you, long thread, but i've repeatedly said "Yes, This new system has flaws, but it has less flaws than the old system, and offers the chance for everyone to fight said NM. Where as the old system 1NM per day per person/group, No exceptions."
Right now, The Current HNM system falls Somewhere between "Diagnosed with Terminal Disease" and "Hammer to the Nuts", the new system falls between "Punched in the face" and "Forced to watch Sex and the City".
While the new system still is rather flawed, It has less flaws than the old system, ergo, I'll take Sex and the City over Cancer any day. Thats my logic. I don't know what you seem to be reading, but you're certainly not getting the point, at all.
Do i want them to make adjustments in the future to this system? Why yes, Yes i do. 1 being return BB drop to NQ Kings. But would i take this system now as an improvement over the old one? Yes. YES i will, because it IS better.
MarkovChain
04-23-2011, 09:20 AM
Hey guys we forgot to say pop are tradable. Haha. So since every newb will see an opportunity to make cash I guess it's a good thing. I guess i will empty my 37 millions on defending ring ¿
Daremo
04-23-2011, 09:28 AM
I don't know what you seem to be reading, but you're certainly not getting the point, at all.
Did you read that whole post you quoted, or stop at the third sentence? The top portion was mainly in regards to your post on page 45.
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 09:39 AM
Did you read that whole post you quoted, or stop at the third sentence? The top portion was mainly in regards to your post on page 45.
Third Sentence, Give or take, I think i read the middle paragraph, i skipped your final thoughts, Read about 1 sentence. I'm a skimmer, Bu hey, I thought of something else.
I know you think Maybe I'm just complaining about complaining, but in reality I'm offering my side of the Argument. They offered their side "This update is a back-step" i offered mine "Its not that bad", and continued to have a discussion. by us i mean Me, Pchan, Rambu, GG, and a few others.
I don't think any of them got really mad, and I'm sure they each enjoyed the argument as much as me. The ups, the downs, the frustration, or maybe I'm the only person here who enjoys a heated debate?
So while you may just think of it as "Complaining about complaining about complaining", The majority of us see it as a topic of Discussion. Arguments can become heated, People sometimes lose their temper, But in the end its nothing more than healthy Discussion.
one side will eventually win, one side will lose, or we come to a stalemate. You don't have to read it, You don't have to like it, But these forums people are free to express their opinion (Within forum boundries and rules) to have a discussion. People won't always agree, But what do you expect me to do? They shit all over the update like its ending the world, and me sit back and let SE think everyone feels the same? I refuse.
I'll voice my opinion on the subject, and reply to anyone who disagrees and try to convince them there is a silver light in this update.
Those who adamantly disagree, (Like say, Pchan and Rambus), I'll discuss with, Eventually I'll give up. You can't please everyone, But i'd rather try to show them how good this update can be, rather than sit back and let SE believe everyone feels the way they do.
Edit: You talking about my First post? or Second? Cause I think both of them stand true. But you shouldn't be offended. Its pretty much human nature to want because other people get. Its life that you can't please everyone. I may have worded it "Cynically", I admit, But it doesn't mean its not truth. I do not envy those who make this game. Because i can look at every single update thread ever released in FFXI and see some amount of people complaining about something. Human nature, etc.
I don't care if people complain a little, But excessive "END OF THE WORLD" Complaining is too far. You're free to express your opinion, But when you go about screaming Dooms-day Prophecies and multi-Excessive-Bashing of people who try to disagree with you, its a step too far.
I've crossed that line once or twice out of Frustration, But i try to maintain my cool for the most part. No ones perfect.
Edit: MarkOvPchan Just proved my point. His only argument relentlessly insulting someone. Its why he's been banned from multiple forums. He has what we call "Unhealthy Discussion". Nothing comes from arrogant flaming.
Yopop
04-23-2011, 09:45 AM
Here's the down side
What about the people who do not have jobs left to level anywhere.. Where do they get the Kindred Seals besides farming easy pray+ for hours on end at a poor drop rate. I would take a week or more to even get half the Seals to do the KSNM
Not really fair when they have nothing to level .. even with the cap going to 95 .. even 100 .. the kindred seal rate they won't get a lot of seals from it
I solod from 1-90 on BST and the amount of BS and KS I got would afford me maybe a 4 go's @ 99KSNM
Wow look at all the people cry. I think this is great. Will open up more reasons to exp outside of abyssea for beastmen seals, Would recreate HNMLS's and would seperate the dedicated monks from the abyssea mnks. Good work DEVs!
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 09:51 AM
Here's the down side
What about the people who do not have jobs left to level anywhere.. Where do they get the Kindred Seals besides farming easy pray+ for hours on end at a poor drop rate. I would take a week or more to even get half the Seals to do the KSNM
Not really fair when they have nothing to level .. even with the cap going to 95 .. even 100 .. the kindred seal rate they won't get a lot of seals from it
I solod from 1-90 on BST and the amount of BS and KS I got would afford me maybe a 4 go's @ 99KSNM
I understand how you feel, The majority of my jobs are 90~+, and I've only got enough KS for ~4/5 Runs. But the positive is at least its known you can purchase the items too. While everyone won't be able to do the KSNMs, everyone can farm gil.
So they have a choice to farm gil, or farm Kindred Seals. I know its not a great choice, It'll depend on the prices (Knowing FFXI/world, It'll be expensive) but theres always the options.
Some people will be left out of course, the same thing happened in the old system. However this new system opens up more opportunities, even if they're not all for 1 person, it opens them up across multiple people. Rather they have seals saved up, or money saved up.
Or can farm both.
ShadowHeart
04-23-2011, 09:55 AM
Amen.
HNM hunting on this game was by far the most boring stupid and retarded game play element, and it's about time it got changed. Wholeheartidly support this change and may Square Enix never ever again subject their players to such torture.
I beg to differ i been playing on 7 years and love camping NM's HNM's for years the friends u make the adrenaline of out claiming the other 50 people there i always loved the hunt and the camp even if the drop wasn't for me.
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 09:59 AM
I beg to differ i been playing on 7 years and love camping NM's HNM's for years the friends u make the adrenaline of out claiming the other 50 people there i always loved the hunt and the camp even if the drop wasn't for me.
You think you'd get the same thrill if it was a Lottery spawn? genuine question. Or if the NM itself had a respawn of ~3 hours instead of 21?
I'm curious if people can find a thrill in things if they're slightly more common. I can understand the "awesome" of claiming an NM, I share it too. This is going to show my noob, But when i first clalimed Dark Ixion/Killed it, It was exciting. I kinda hated the group of people crowding around waiting for a wipe (which never happened), But i enjoyed killing it.
But i also felt the same joy when I got my Epona's, or finished my +2THF set. So I'm curious how other people feel. Its good discussions.
Tl:dR - what about it makes you excited ;O?
Khajit
04-23-2011, 10:02 AM
I beg to differ i been playing on 7 years and love camping NM's HNM's for years the friends u make the adrenaline of out claiming the other 50 people there i always loved the hunt and the camp even if the drop wasn't for me.
That stops being fun once you realize bots exist and are being used against you.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 10:02 AM
I would have preferred if they'd made the triggers like an enm
once every 3~5 days get a trigger free
RaenRyong
04-23-2011, 10:35 AM
Where'd you get that data from? Your backside?
I think you'll find the casual noobs just cry louder and cry more for what they want. Most of the HNM fans didn't bother to post against a wall of ignorance. That was my downfall.
Funny how you separate HNM fans from noobs; most HNM players were SHOCKING! I don't know if it happened on your server, but HNMLSs as a whole proved very incapable at Abyssea and generally just threw excessive bodies at things forever, which is all the "skill" HNM ever taught.
Starcade
04-23-2011, 11:01 AM
Where'd you get that data from? Your backside?
I think you'll find the casual noobs just cry louder and cry more for what they want. Most of the HNM fans didn't bother to post against a wall of ignorance. That was my downfall.
This (person you would consider because I don't cheat my patoot off) "casual noob" would rather see all "We Want Bots" Society of America (that is, most US HNM fans) to GTFO and go away!
(I have a better name for you, but I can't use it here!)
Is it really hard to understand that people don't want to farm Kindred Seals for 8 hours to pop a Fafnir, for the chance at popping a Nidhogg, King Behemoth or Aspidochelone?
Well...
Is it really hard to understand that people don't want to be outclaimed by bots and other illegal mechanisms and watch mobs pop purple for hours on end, with NO chance at popping a Nidhogg, King Behemoth or Aspidochelone?
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 11:05 AM
I keep hearing "Fight fafnir for a chance at nidhogg" when in the old days it was "Camp Fafnir for a chance at nidhogg, Oh, and also you might not claimlol, oh and you only can do it once a day."
I understand the skepticism behind this, But really if you step back and logically assess it without being upset, You might be able to see the silver lining :). Just need to understand the big picture :D!
viion
04-23-2011, 12:02 PM
The fact that is tradable is very nice, you could "buy" your way into BB then,
Sasukeuchiha
04-23-2011, 01:37 PM
The fact that is tradable is very nice, you could "buy" your way into BB then,
You could buy a bb befor so i see no difference.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 01:58 PM
You could buy a bb befor so i see no difference.
difference being it will be easier to get triggers and there won't be a monopoly on the fights..
and you can actually do the fight yourself now
Starcade
04-23-2011, 04:37 PM
difference being it will be easier to get triggers and there won't be a monopoly on the fights..
and you can actually do the fight yourself now
If you have a large enough HNMLS, I beg to differ on the monopoly end.
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 05:02 PM
If you have a large enough HNMLS, I beg to differ on the monopoly end.
Probably early on i think you're right, because theres going to be a lot of people after them. But i can't think of very many LS who'd orchestrate a large scale thing like that doing Multiple KSNM99's just to cock-block people.
Or a Large HNMLS that even exists :P
Mirage
04-23-2011, 05:09 PM
HEY GUYS!
Including you guys at SE
Why can't the mobs both spawn like normal, and be poppable?
Leave the NMs in the game, let them spawn when they usually do, don't touch their drops or drop rates. In addition, add the system you're planning on, with no drop from NQ, reduced drop rates on HQ, etc.
Maybe make it so you can't manually pop them while there is already a timed-spawn version of it running around.
I don't even play monk or plan on doing so in a long time, so I neither know nor care how hard or easy it is to get a black belt. I just think it's cool that sometimes, really strong dragons and shit are roaming around in certain areas. So I kind of want to keep them around.
Dear SE,
You PROMISED Fafnir would FLY into Dragon's Aery. What the hell is this fading-into-existence nonsense that I'm seeing? Do you think this is some sort of power point presentation where you can just hit on and off the fade-in animation? I for one am disappointed.
- By Yugl
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 05:18 PM
HEY GUYS!
Including you guys at SE
Why can't the mobs both spawn like normal, and be poppable?
Leave the NMs in the game, let them spawn when they usually do, don't touch their drops or drop rates. In addition, add the system you're planning on, with no drop from NQ, reduced drop rates on HQ, etc.
Maybe make it so you can't manually pop them while there is already a timed-spawn version of it running around.
I don't even play monk or plan on doing so in a long time, so I neither know nor care how hard or easy it is to get a black belt, I just think it's cool that sometimes, really strong dragons and shit are roaming around in certain areas. So I kind of want to keep them around.
I don't understand how timed spawns are more beneficial than force pops..
I do wish the triggers were more common.. but if they were too common people would complain about that also
I can't think of any NM's in the game where multiple instances of them can be up at the same time... It would be nice to not have to wait for a ??? and see people fighting like 10 behemoths at once
I'm pretty sure if the game was capable of handling multiple of the same NM's up at the same time it would have been implemented already.
and having a time spawned / force pop system side by side would have way too many issues with the whole single NM up at a time system ffxi has
MarkovChain
04-23-2011, 05:43 PM
What the shit is this? Lol. You're the one banned from BG, not me.
Also, Wiki is total crap for determining the drop rates of something =/. How often do you see people reporting their drop rates? The Hills Are Alive's Drop% for Adamanoitse Egg is based off of only 111 samples. The NQ HNM Drop% for Adamantoise Egg is based off of even less, 105 samples.The people who report their drop rates also tend to be the outliers who have had either good streaks or bad streaks anyways, which will always skew the end result.
As for Rambus, yes I'm talking about the Aspid KSNM. Personally, I've not noticed any difference in drop rates between the 3 and it seems counter-intuitive to have different drop rates for BB items between the 3 KS99s anyways. Say "Nuh uhh" all you want, it doesn't change the fact that I have had a significantly different experience than yours, and that neither of our experiences can be said to be representative of the norm anyways.
A confident interval what is it ? With 100 sample and 25% droprate you know the droprate is between 17% and 33% so I think we are far from your 75% droprate, try again ?
Mirage
04-23-2011, 05:58 PM
I don't understand how timed spawns are more beneficial than force pops..
I do wish the triggers were more common.. but if they were too common people would complain about that also
I can't think of any NM's in the game where multiple instances of them can be up at the same time... It would be nice to not have to wait for a ??? and see people fighting like 10 behemoths at once
I'm pretty sure if the game was capable of handling multiple of the same NM's up at the same time it would have been implemented already.
and having a time spawned / force pop system side by side would have way too many issues with the whole single NM up at a time system ffxi has
I never talked about what as more beneficial than the other. I said it would be nice if both could coexist, because I like the idea of seeing rare, strong enemies roam around, and being able to say to my LS "hey guys, X is up and unclaimed, who wants to come kill it with me?"
Why would having both systems side by side have too many issues? Please explain. I already suggested that players wouldn't be able to pop it whenever it was already up, be that from a forced spawn or a timed spawn. The only thing that would need to happen would be for the ??? to disappear when the NM time-spawned, or to give players a message saying "you a the feeling that the monster is already nearby". With how far apart each spawn is, I doubt this would be a real problem.
If you were unlucky enough to try to pop the NM a second after it timespawned (extremely unlikely), all you have to do is to either find the NM yourself, saving you 99 Kseals (and getting an increased chance to get the drop). If it's already claimed by a different group, you just need to wait until they kill it, which shouldn't take too long with people at level 90. After that, you can proceed with popping your NM as you planned to.
Greatguardian
04-23-2011, 06:00 PM
A confident interval what is it ? With 100 sample and 25% droprate you know the droprate is between 17% and 33% so I think we are far from your 75% droprate, try again ?
I know exactly what a confidence interval is. I never said the drop rate was 75%. I said my personal drop rate on those items from the 3 KS99s has been 75%. How much does that mean? Jack squat. Just like quoting a 3% personal drop rate like Rambus was doing. And that's the point. Christ, you're slow on the uptake.
You're also completely missing/ignoring/disputing the point that people who actually report their drop rates in the Wiki template tend to be people with extraordinary (high or low, doesn't matter) drop rates rather than typical rates. It is not an unbiased sample of people, which is contingent to drawing proper conclusions and confidence intervals. The only reported rates come from people who experienced a given drop rate, and then felt the need to report it. Given that it only has 100 samples in, oh, 6-7 years, I dare say most people are left completely unrepresented.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 06:02 PM
I never talked about what as more beneficial than the other. I said it would be nice if both could coexist, because I like the idea of seeing rare, strong enemies roam around, and being able to say to my LS "hey guys, X is up and unclaimed, who wants to come kill it with me?"
Why would having both systems side by side have too many issues? Please explain. I already suggested that players wouldn't be able to pop it whenever it was already up, be that from a forced spawn or a timed spawn. The only thing that would need to happen would be for the ??? to disappear when the NM time-spawned, or to give players a message saying "you a the feeling that the monster is already nearby". With how far apart each spawn is, I doubt this would be a real problem.
If you were unlucky enough to try to pop the NM a second after it timespawned (extremely unlikely), all you have to do is to either find the NM yourself, saving you 99 Kseals (and getting an increased chance to get the drop). If it's already claimed by a different group, you just need to wait until they kill it, which shouldn't take too long with people at level 90. After that, you can proceed with popping your NM as you planned to.
The issues i was referring to was about having 2 of the same NM up at the same time..
and a force pop system side by side with a timed spawn system would take some fancy code writing that the ffxi team hasn't figured out yet
Ie. having 2 of the same NM up at the same time.
Runespider
04-23-2011, 06:05 PM
If you have a large enough HNMLS, I beg to differ on the monopoly end.
Abyssea gutted all the HNMLS. They are all basically just socials or semi endgame shells, none are anything like what they used to be. The whole HNMLS scene was not a pleasant one so the moment you didn't need to be in one anymore most left, or they quit cause of how different the game is. The strongest current shells are ones akin to what sky shells used to be and they are pretty small.
MarkovChain
04-23-2011, 06:06 PM
You're also completely missing/ignoring/disputing the point that people who actually report their drop rates in the Wiki template tend to be people with extraordinary ...
I'm not ignoring it ; it's not an argument, you have nothing to back it up.
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 06:07 PM
I always thought the drop rate was about 20% for the BB items from what i've seen...
I've only done about 40 or so KS99 tho
Karbuncle
04-23-2011, 06:19 PM
I'm not ignoring it ; it's not an argument, you have nothing to back it up.
Well, Considering theres only 111 reports, It seems like people don't always report it. As I'm sure in the last 7 years more than 111 people across all servers have done the KSNM.
I can personally attest I don't update Wiki Drop rate info unless its really bad or really good.
Though i adamantly admit 1 Testimony isn't enough.
But neither is "Drop rate sucks I've only seen maybe 2/3 in like 20 30 runs" that GG was arguing against. The point he made was that both claims were ridiculous and uncredible.
Mirage
04-23-2011, 06:21 PM
The issues i was referring to was about having 2 of the same NM up at the same time..
and a force pop system side by side with a timed spawn system would take some fancy code writing that the ffxi team hasn't figured out yet
Ie. having 2 of the same NM up at the same time.
How do you know it would take some fancy code writing that the ffxi team hasn't figured out yet? Did they tell you?
It sounds really easy for me. All you need to do is make the server do something like this:
When player trades to ???
check if X NM is alive
if yes, display "cannot pop right now, NM is already up" to player
if no, pop NM.
"Ie. having 2 of the same NM up at the same time"
What does this even mean? Why would two of the same NMs be up at the same time? Who is saying they should be? Who is saying they have to be? Who is saying it is impossible to prevent?
Flunklesnarkin
04-23-2011, 06:27 PM
How do you know it would take some fancy code writing that the ffxi team hasn't figured out yet? Did they tell you?
It sounds really easy for me. All you need to do is make the server do something like this:
When player trades to ???
check if X NM is alive
if yes, display "cannot pop right now, NM is already up" to player
if no, pop NM.
"Ie. having 2 of the same NM up at the same time"
What does this even mean? Why would two of the same NMs be up at the same time? Who is saying they should be? Who is saying they have to be? Who is saying it is impossible to prevent?
I'm saying if it was possible to have 2 NM's up at the same time... It for sure should have been implemented by now...
Think of all the Q.Qlery it would have saved in abyssea for people camping seals
and yes... simple concepts can be retarded to code if the coders are limited to a poorly designed framework
for example you will never see any sort of frame rate improvement on the game