[dev1009] Seriously.... how could you make the HNM system worse... [Archive]

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 04:09 PM

This is probably the worst way to go about it. I get wanting to limit the amount of spamming of these HNMs but seriously you are making doing these HNMs exponentially difficult to do partially because of the fact that most high level players are no longer obtaining Kindred Seals.

Also are the trophy items being removed from the KS99 BCs? Do the NQ Kings drop HQ King pop items all the time (ie 100%)? All of this on top of making black belt harder to get by taking away the 100% from the HQs.This system is so convoluted now - pop-HNM are worse. Is there any upside? Will Ridill and Defending ring and Abj. be 100% now?

Am I the only one who find this unacceptable?

Edit: On the note of seals and farmablity;
a) You can only have 1 KS in the pool per party in an alliance (Approx 1 every 5 mins)
b) This pool is shared with High KS and Kindred Crests
c) Assuming one gains all the possible KSs and it drops every time, it takes 8hrs 15mins to gain 99 KSs...

Edit #2:
Another problem is going to be just getting people to do the KSNMs... nothing about this changes offers anything - we need to pray for altruistic friends. If I really wanted an egg I could have solo'd Adam - with this change I'd have to pray and beg people for help and to achieve anything. Forgoing all the gd running around we'd need to do...

Orson

04-20-2011, 04:12 PM

Snaplin

04-20-2011, 04:20 PM

Did you actually read the post? They giving us the ability to fight these way more often. You can farm KSs really really easily. Whether any people with fight anything other than King Behemoth will remain to be seen.

That doesn't mean shit... Who has the time to sit and farm KS's off retarded mobs to get people to drag them out to a KS99 to kill for a pop to pop a NQ to pop an HQ to do that all over... At least the time was spanned over HQ/NQ days. People cried about 3hours... congrats spending even more time trying to get a pop for a effing HNM that's going to be 10x more pain in the ass to get an item off of.

Chaani

04-20-2011, 04:25 PM

Good game SE, this ranks right up there with relieving Abyssea congestion by adding seals to the visions zones.

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 04:26 PM

Also are they raising all the abjuration drops or items drops (Ridill, Defending Ring, etc etc) signinifcantly? Cus as a non-mnk those are the items I'd care about.

Edit: This would be less of an issue if it were Crests and not Seals

Zerovirus

04-20-2011, 04:27 PM

Seriously SE is just coming out with shit now. Instead of "okay faf's window opens tonight at 9, guess I can do other shit til then." No it's "Damn I want Dring/BB, lemme just farm for 4 fucking days to get enought KS to do the ksnm's."

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 04:33 PM

I must forget how bad it sucks to not have somewhere near 900 Kindred seals or more :\

Kari

04-20-2011, 04:33 PM

Worst possible outcome for the update on HNMs. Come on SE.

thefinalrune

04-20-2011, 04:34 PM

While I personally have zero interest in these HNMs I completely agree with the OP. I would have thought the entire reasoning behind making these NMs pop-able was alleviate the fierce competition for mostly the items they're now making it harder to obtain.

Smooth move SE, lets just defecate all over the hope and dreams of every monk by now not only making it more arduous to even fight the mob that drops the black belt items but lets also make the drop rate even lower.

Let me give you a nice {Congratulations!} for totally missing the point.

Daremo

04-20-2011, 04:39 PM

This is such a useless and counter productive change, I can barely grasp it. What a hearty and heartfelt felt "screw you" to those players out there. I can't even say anything that wouldn't be flat out abusive. I can't think of a worse idea SE has tried to implement in the history of this game.

This is complete and utter garbage.

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 04:50 PM

The way i see it, This is a small improvement over the old way. You may be thinking "Oh, I only have 200 Kindred Seals" but then again, You probably camped the old kings with friends. Sooo... Ask those friends to help with KSNM99.

Say you get 5 friends, You go do 6 KSNM99s, get 6 pops for Fafnir, Kill Fafnir 6 times and (if the update is correct about 100% pop upgrade) then kill 6 Nidhoggs. etc etc. or divide them up. the KSNM99's still have a chance to drop Black Belt items as well.

You basically now, with a bit more effort, Have the chance to rapid-spawn multiple of these of these NMs, KSNM99's aren't really that hard, and I'm sure between you and ~3 friends you can probably have a fair share of pops built up. Split up between different NMs.

I Definitely think it could have had more ways to get the pop (I.E, make it drop from Multiple BC/KSNMs like the "Ouryu Orb" from multiple ENMs), but outside of that, I actually think this isn't as terrible as your all making it sound :|

Still, I see where a lot of the trouble is coming from, I think the pop item should have been a little more easily obtained. Perhaps Drop 100% From KSNM99s, and maybe ~25% from KSNM30's, and a few BCNM60+'s. Make it from Multiple locations. Forcing it into only 1 KSNM really does hurt more then help after the first ~month when everyones burned out their Kindred seals...

Edit: Plus the update notes said "At least 1 per fight", Meaning theres a Chance Fafnir/KSNM will drop 1-2 or more of the "Pop items" for their NMs. This is a bigger improvement than most people think :|

Orson

04-20-2011, 04:54 PM

That doesn't mean shit... Who has the time to sit and farm KS's off retarded mobs to get people to drag them out to a KS99 to kill for a pop to pop a NQ to pop an HQ to do that all over... At least the time was spanned over HQ/NQ days. People cried about 3hours... congrats spending even more time trying to get a pop for a effing HNM that's going to be 10x more pain in the ass to get an item off of.

If you have 6 people spend randomly 2 hrs farming KSs you'd have a pop approx every 2 hours 45 minutes (this being double the base time because I'd assume you'd get Bst seals too.) Being that's a 100% pop for NQ and HQ I'd say that's not bad at all. Seriously if you have problem with that then you're probably in one of 2 camps. You want everything handed to you on a silver platter or you're a lazy ass botter who enjoyed spending NM windows watching cartoons while waiting for your bot or your LS mates' bot to claim.

Seyomeyo

04-20-2011, 04:59 PM

Who wants to spend 8 hours and 15 minutes (based on the speculation of 5 minutes between drops) farming KS (much longer since BS, KC and HKC share that pool) so they can get a group together to do a KSNM so that they can pop a mob they can solo now.

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 04:59 PM

The way i see it, This is a small improvement over the old way. You may be thinking "Oh, I only have 200 Kindred Seals" but then again, You probably camped the old kings with friends. Sooo... Ask those friends to help with KSNM99.

Say you get 5 friends, You go do 6 KSNM99s, get 6 pops for Fafnir, Kill Fafnir 6 times and (if the update is correct about 100% pop upgrade) then kill 6 Nidhoggs. etc etc. or divide them up. the KSNM99's still have a chance to drop Black Belt items as well.

You basically now, with a bit more effort, Have the chance to rapid-spawn multiple of these of these NMs, KSNM99's aren't really that hard, and I'm sure between you and ~3 friends you can probably have a fair share of pops built up. Split up between different NMs.

I Definitely think it could have had more ways to get the pop (I.E, make it drop from Multiple BC/KSNMs like the "Ouryu Orb" from multiple ENMs), but outside of that, I actually think this isn't as terrible as your all making it sound :|

Still, I see where a lot of the trouble is coming from, I think the pop item should have been a little more easily obtained. Perhaps Drop 100% From KSNM99s, and maybe ~25% from KSNM30's, and a few BCNM60+'s. Make it from Multiple locations. Forcing it into only 1 KSNM really does hurt more then help after the first ~month when everyones burned out their Kindred seals...

While I agree that more options are a great thing it does not solve to problem of seal influx nor the problem of actually having willing friends who aren't dragging their feet about spending their limited KSs, time, etc. In the end this feels like it is taking away more options than it is giving.

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 05:06 PM

While I agree that more options are a great thing it does not solve to problem of seal influx nor the problem of actually having willing friends who aren't dragging their feet about spending their limited KSs, time, etc. In the end this feels like it is taking away more options than it is giving.

I can respect that you're in that situation but... Kindred Seals are basically 95% Worthless. KSNM's don't offer shit for gil anymore, especially compared to other Ventures. (Really the only good ones these days are the ones that drop Raise III...)

Maybe i just have Really good friends, But i know I could get a lot of people to Build pops with/for me. Giving us each a shot at something we want for fun. Maybe a Ridill(TOY!), or Dring, But I don't think I'll have trouble getting help. Though i can feel for people who don't have friends who can help them or want too.

Though, If you can get even 2 friends, You can "abuse" the alliance system, get up to 3 KS/BS/etc per 5 minutes, instead of just 1. tripling your odds.

I know it sounds like shit, But I think in the long run it'll help most people, maybe not everyone, But i know when this update comes around I'll have a better shot at Black belt :\

Snaplin

04-20-2011, 05:08 PM

Orson

04-20-2011, 05:12 PM

Cool so I can spend 2 hours farming, gather for the NMs kill the KS 99, to pop the NQ to pop the HQ at a "chance" of some lower drop rate shit? On top of LS events and my already mile high "To-do-list" Instead of planning my time around an HNM and get stuff before,after and in between windows. Try harder.

I see you're in the second camp. Cry harder now that you can't just sit on your ass waiting for you to luck out on getting gear. Also read the post only BB items drop rate is being reduced.

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 05:14 PM

Did i over-look in the update notes where they said they lowered the drop rate on HNM/King items for this update? people seem to be bringing it up a lot.

Edit: I see that they removed it from NQ HNMs :|
Edit2: Seriously... They lowered the drop rate from Kings? I just looked at it, Thought it said "increased". Which i thought was odd since i thought it was 100%

Fuck that is really dumb.

Orson

04-20-2011, 05:17 PM

For all people could know that drop rate might be like 50% off the HQ. That and they aren't removing the BB items from the KS99s unless they aren't mentioning that.

Snaplin

04-20-2011, 05:21 PM

I see you're in the second camp. Cry harder now that you can't just sit on your ass waiting for you to luck out on getting gear. Also read the post only BB items drop rate is being reduced.

I don't even camp that but I'm glad you can tell someone bots from a post on a forum cool more posts from the QQbot brigade. There are bots that can farm KS's while you afk so this makes no difference nor changes anything but the fact that you have to run to different zones and fight more then 1 mob and people w/o a BB go through more of a pain to get them, Nice try tho go cry about bots back in 2004 when SE didn't listen & HNMs ment something.

Kari

04-20-2011, 05:22 PM

For all people could know that drop rate might be like 50% off the HQ. That and they aren't removing the BB items from the KS99s unless they aren't mentioning that.

SE has been known to skip minor details, usually on accident.
It's possible that they're removing it from the KS99 too, but it's also possible they'll remain.
Even assuming so, my group just did 5 or 6 turtle KSNMs the other day and didn't get the BB item. Plus, we also kinda wasted seals now that this system will be in place and we'll no longer be able to camp the real turtle.

Another thing to note is that we aren't sure what the drop rate of the pop items are. For all we know we could blow 99 KSs and not get one. Or we could blow them, get one pop, kill the NQ, not get an HQ pop. Same route, and HQ doesn't drop the BB item.
Overall they tried to fix a problem and caused another one. They should have left it alone.

Orson

04-20-2011, 05:24 PM

How to obtain the trigger items:Fafnir: Treasure from “Early Bird Catches the Wyrm”
Nidhogg: Treasure dropped by Fafnir
Behemoth: Treasure from “Horns of War”
King Behemoth: Treasure dropped by Behemoth
Adamantoise: Treasure from “The Hills are Alive”
Aspidochelone: Treasure dropped by Adamantoise

* At least one of these items will be dropped in every battle.Read the post >.<

At least one every fight. Hell that could mean you might even have potential for multiple pops dropping from 1 KS99. People need to stop crying over something that might not even be as bad as you think. No matter what way you look at it you will get pops faster than the old system. The time spent to get a BB will probably be about the same amount or less time to get unless your server has no competition to get HQ Kings.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 05:25 PM

If you have 6 people spend randomly 2 hrs farming KSs you'd have a pop approx every 2 hours 45 minutes (this being double the base time because I'd assume you'd get Bst seals too.) Being that's a 100% pop for NQ and HQ I'd say that's not bad at all. Seriously if you have problem with that then you're probably in one of 2 camps. You want everything handed to you on a silver platter or you're a lazy ass botter who enjoyed spending NM windows watching cartoons while waiting for your bot or your LS mates' bot to claim.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

The NMs are not seriously camped (well, KB is a different story) right now. It is much easier to get the ToD by searching the zone from time to time or afking there while you are at work than sit there in some brand new time sink. I have helped a few friends camp the NMs for the BB. There is generally one or two people there, and it is a simple process that is not as bothersome as farming KS.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

The NMs are camped for D. ring, BB items, and maybe the occassional THF wants some N. Abj. gear. The rest of is is worthless crap. Stuff like Zenith feet were next to worthless at 75 too. Given SE's track record with the lame augments too I can not imagine them being anything special. Even if they were it be a lot of work for some sidegrade piece of equipment.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 05:27 PM

I see you're in the second camp. Cry harder now that you can't just sit on your ass waiting for you to luck out on getting gear. Also read the post only BB items drop rate is being reduced.

The point some of us are trying that some us are trying to make is that they are making these HNMs a near finite resource. Based on the math it takes 8hrs 15mins to gain 99 KS assuming you get every KS every time you could (KSs have a chance to drop only once ever 5mins and share a possible pool with KC, H.Q. KC, and BS) There is no level that you can only get a Kindred Seal (i.e. there will always be a shared pool). Coupled with the fact that Abyssea (i.e. high level mobs) make getting a Kindred Seal very rare also hurt us. Yes you can farm 8hr15mins+ solo on optimal KS farming mobs... but this is no where near equivalent to waiting 3hrs or so for a mob to spawn. Not even having a guaranteed drop means that the path to these items (incuding bb items, ridill-esque items, and abjs) means the effort heavily outweighs the reward which is bad game design at its best/worst.

Kari

04-20-2011, 05:27 PM

Read the post >.<

I missed that, thank you.
We still have no idea how severe the drop rate decrease on the HQ's BB item is. If it's similar or less than the old NQ BB drop, ugh.

[EDITED] Made a mistake in reading again.

Sovereign

04-20-2011, 05:29 PM

Snaplin

04-20-2011, 05:30 PM

Hey, I remember you from years ago. You were/maybe still are on that joke of a site calling Killing Ifrit. If you are going to sit there and say people want things handed to them or that they are botters try not being more retarded than Terri Schiavo.

Anyway, thank you for proving once again how I hope the dev team does not read these forums and take people here seriously.

If you think six people want to actually spend 3 hours camping Kindred Seals then you are simply a moron. The NMs are not seriously camped (well, KB is a different story) right now. It is much easier to get the ToD by searching the zone from time to time or afking there while you are at work than sit there in some brand new time sink. I have helped a few friends camp the NMs for the BB. There is generally one or two people there, and it is a simple process that is not as bothersome as farming KS.

No one wants to sit there killing lesser colibri like a mindless idiot.

Just a news flash to people too the Ridill and things are worthless. The NMs are camped for D. ring, BB items, and maybe the occassional THF wants some N. Abj. gear. The rest of is is worthless crap. Stuff like Zenith feet were next to worthless at 75 too. Given SE's track record with the lame augments too I can not imagine them being anything special. Even if they were it be a lot of work for some sidegrade piece of equipment.

That being said, I love this game, but I think there are some weirdos on the dev team and a bunch of morons in the community.

This^^

The point some of us are trying that some us are trying to make is that they are making these HNMs a near finite resource. Based on the math it takes 8hrs 15mins to gain 99 KS assuming you get every KS every time you could (KSs have a chance to drop only once ever 5mins and share a possible pool with KC, H.Q. KC, and BS) There is no level that you can only get a Kindred Seal (i.e. there will always be a shared pool). Coupled with the fact that Abyssea (i.e. high level mobs) make getting a Kindred Seal very rare also hurt us. Yes you can farm 8hr15mins+ solo on optimal KS farming mobs... but this is no where near equivalent to waiting 3hrs or so for a mob to spawn. Not even having a guaranteed drop means that the path to these items (incuding bb items, ridill-esque items, and abjs) means the effort heavily outweighs the reward which is bad game design at its best/worst.

I completely agree but "Oh you must be a botter who want's stuff on easy mode" according to his post.

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 05:32 PM

Really, This forum has made me kinda happy.

According to half the poster it feels like i'll be doing the KSNM99's and Fafnirs completely uncontested as none of you appear to own a Single Kindred seal >.>!

W00000 Free Blackbelts.

Now Mercin' KSNM99's

2mil a pop

PST!

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 05:34 PM

Just a news flash to people too the Ridill and things are worthless. The NMs are camped for D. ring, BB items, and maybe the occassional THF wants some N. Abj. gear. The rest of is is worthless crap. Stuff like Zenith feet were next to worthless at 75 too. Given SE's track record with the lame augments too I can not imagine them being anything special. Even if they were it be a lot of work for some sidegrade piece of equipment.

That being said, I love this game, but I think there are some weirdos on the dev team and a bunch of morons in the community.

On this note I understand that many people find X items from the old days not worth it but there are some of us who want the item that they've always wanted their whole FFXI career, mine is Dalmatica. Lets not forget that SE has already mentioned and shown (in screenshots) the upcoming augment system that make items these items comparable to +2 emp armor. Some of the reasons SE is even bothering to revamp old content is to alleviate congestion (mainly away from abyssea) and making content more accessible - which is miles above what many of us that they would ever do (no one had any hope anything would ever change). Someone times its not about having the best of X its about getting what you want however small or big it is.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 05:36 PM

I agree, this adjustment to these HNMs is much worse than anything they could have done.

I was excited when I heard there would be adjustments... I assumed lower respawn timers, maybe 9-12 hours. Instead, we get this shit.

Now, if this trigger system was added to supplement the current world spawn system, it'd be epic. Keep the camps for people willing to camp, and triggers for people willing to farm. Instead, it sounds like it will replace the current world spawn, which is just awful.

I am disappointed... this is easily the worst news we've had in a LONG time.

Yup.

I really want some of what they are smoking.

It is not hard to think about how to adjust these things. Really it is not hard at all.

Now creating new content, revitalizing older areas, and so on is hard, but adjusting some pops is not.

It is not just these old mostly useless HNMs that should have simply had their respawn time cut. It is sky too. multiple pop items are not the answer to things taking 3 hours to repop. People pretty much only want the W.legs out of there. People going around soloing/duoing the NMs or hogging them to make others buy the pop items they let floor is dumb. Having to wait 3-6 hours on top of that for something like Mother Globe to come back is crap.

It is clear they want us to waste time so we keep playing, and I rather keep playing for the same reasons I have been. Which does not include being annoyed by the dev team.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 05:38 PM

On this note I understand that many people find X items from the old days worth it but there are some of us who want the item that they've always wanted their whole FFXI career, mine is Dalmatica. Lets not forget that SE has already mentioned and shown (in screenshots) the upcoming augment system that make items comparable to +2 emp armor. Some of the reasons SE is even bothering to revamp old content is to alleviate congestion (mainly of abyssea) and making content more accessible - which is miles above what many of us that they would ever do. Someone times its not about having the best of X its about getting what you want however small or big it is.

Yeah, we need to think about those people taking things for sentimental reasons. Let's factor everyone being sentimental into the equation.

Orson

04-20-2011, 05:39 PM

The point some of us are trying that some us are trying to make is that they are making these HNMs a near finite resource. Based on the math it takes 8hrs 15mins to gain 99 KS assuming you get every KS every time you could (KSs have a chance to drop only once ever 5mins and share a possible pool with KC, H.Q. KC, and BS) There is no level that you can only get a Kindred Seal (i.e. there will always be a shared pool). Coupled with the fact that Abyssea (i.e. high level mobs) make getting a Kindred Seal very rare also hurt us. Yes you can farm 8hr15mins+ solo on optimal KS farming mobs... but this is no where near equivalent to waiting 3hrs or so for a mob to spawn. Not even having a guaranteed drop means that the path to these items (incuding bb items, ridill-esque items, and abjs) means the effort heavily outweighs the reward which is bad game design at its best/worst.

It's not necessarily just waiting 0-3 hrs every 21-24 hrs though. Even if you have no competition which I find doubtful you have to make your and most likely your friend's schedule around when the NM pops. NQ drop rates on trophies is awful from what I've seen and heard they're maybe around 10%. Sure the HQs are 100% but odds are you'll have more competition camping HQs and they pop only every 4 days at most.

With an alliance of 3 you have a chance at 3 seals every 5 mins you can potentially get a pop every 3 hrs or so. Even doubling that time if you just spend a couple hrs a day farming you're more likely to get a pop then you would from camping. Until we see the droprate off HQs you can't really say whether it's a terrible waste of time but at this time it's about the same amount of time spent camping given that there's always a chance you'll lose claim. Not only that but you'll be able to farm at your leisure.

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 05:40 PM

Pretty sure SE mentioned looking to introduce something better than Black Belt for monks too.

So hey, By 95 maybe Black Belt will be shit tier!

Theres a bright side ^^

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 05:42 PM

Yeah, we need to think about those people taking things for sentimental reasons. Let's factor everyone being sentimental into the equation.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not but - why the hell not? The more people who care about content X the better. Its better than being lethargic. Hell I'm one more person who is willing and up for helping people do stuff like this which means someone can get their desired BB item, or Defending Ring, or whatever. Better than completely eliminating the option.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 05:45 PM

It's not necessarily just waiting 0-3 hrs every 21-24 hrs though. Even if you have no competition which I find doubtful you have to make your and most likely your friend's schedule around when the NM pops. NQ drop rates on trophies is awful from what I've seen and heard they're maybe around 10%. Sure the HQs are 100% but odds are you'll have more competition camping HQs and they pop only every 4 days at most.

With an alliance of 3 you have a chance at 3 seals every 5 mins you can potentially get a pop every 3 hrs or so. Even doubling that time if you just spend a couple hrs a day farming you're more likely to get a pop then you would from camping. Until we see the droprate off HQs you can't really say whether it's a terrible waste of time but at this time it's about the same amount of time spent camping given that there's always a chance you'll lose claim. Not only that but you'll be able to farm at your leisure.

Hurr Durr.

Yes the NQ drop rates are not the best, but many people have still gotten their BB items from them.

It does not give credibility to your ridiculous "hey guys lets go be incedibly bored as a six man group for THREE hours" nonsense. Most likely people will not be out as a group of six farming KS. It would be a person soloing them or a group of two maybe three tops on average. It is still a slap in the face.

SE: "Hey new people who came into this game in a time where KS no longer drop on mobs people actually fight (you know those abyssean ones) because clearly only KC should drop on a mob, go spend your time doing something mind numbingly boring!"
New MNKs: "Sounds good to me!"

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 05:46 PM

God i wish there was a PM system on this site now so i can tell people when to just give up arguing with certain people >.>

Hurr Durr.

Yes the NQ drop rates are not the best, but many people have still gotten their BB items from them.

It does not give credibility to your ridiculous "hey guys lets go be incedibly bored as a six man group for THREE hours" nonsense. Most likely people will not be out as a group of six farming KS. It would be a person soloing them or a group of two maybe three tops on average. It is still a slap in the face.

SE: "Hey new people who came into this game in a time where KS no longer drop on mobs people actually fight (you know those abyssean ones) because clearly only KC should drop on a mob, go spend your time doing something mind numbingly boring!"
New MNKs: "Sounds good to me!"

You may have not have seen the threads having probably just started visiting here.

But there were tons of people on these boards complaining non-stop that the Devs needed to give people a reason to do things out-side of Abyssea, to "Revitalize Old-school exp". This is actually a rather ingenuously evil way of doing it. You force people to choose between mind-numbing FoV soloing for Seals, Or level your jobs in old-fashioned exp ways.

Neither are very appealing, But i find it kinda ... I can't think of the word? Deliciously Ironic/Evil. So there is a positive ^^

Edit: for the record, I never complained about the above, i just find it SE gave people what they wanted (reasons to do things outside of Abyssea), and they're now complaining more. (not everyone mind you)

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 05:46 PM

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not but - why the hell not? The more people who care about content X the better. Its better than being lethargic. Hell I'm one more person who is willing and up for helping people do stuff like this which means someone can get their desired BB item, or Defending Ring, or whatever. Better than completely eliminating the option.

Very sarcastic,, *facepalm*

The reason? Quite simply if you think about it, it is ludicrous for the dev team to take sentimental value into account for adjustments to the game.

Enternius

04-20-2011, 05:47 PM

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees this is a step in the wrong direction for a game that's been working toward being more accessible for over a year now.

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 05:51 PM

I am aware, and no I have looked and posted at and on these forums from a bit since they opened.

The official forums have convinced me that the human race should go extinct :P

If i could agree with you without admitting I'm part of that race.

I would.

I really really would.

Kari

04-20-2011, 05:53 PM

But there were tons of people on these boards complaining non-stop that the Devs needed to give people a reason to do things out-side of Abyssea, to "Revitalize Old-school exp". This is actually a rather ingenuously evil way of doing it. You force people to choose between mind-numbing FoV soloing for Seals, Or level your jobs in old-fashioned exp ways.

A lot of idiots begged for outside exp to be good again, and for reasons to exp outside of Aby.
However, if someone needs KSs, they aren't going to hop in an old-school XP party for them, they're going to solo it or do it with friends. This causes people to do things outside of Aby no more than Magian Trials do.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 05:53 PM

If i could agree with you without admitting I'm part of that race.

I would.

I really really would.

We could start with Asura server :P

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 05:54 PM

A lot of idiots begged for outside exp to be good again, and for reasons to exp outside of Aby.
However, if someone needs KSs, they aren't going to hop in an old-school XP party for them, they're going to solo it or do it with friends. This causes people to do things outside of Aby no more than Magian Trials do.

It does not matter if you XP in or out of abyssea. you have to fight those EP mobs for KS as they wont drop anymore outside of abyssea than inside it since SE blundered the rate.

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 05:55 PM

A lot of idiots begged for outside exp to be good again, and for reasons to exp outside of Aby.
However, if someone needs KSs, they aren't going to hop in an old-school XP party for them, they're going to solo it or do it with friends. This causes people to do things outside of Aby no more than Magian Trials do.

A lot of the complaints were for "Reasons to visit old zones"

So replace "Exp oldschool" with "Reasons to visit old zones" in my argument :(

I think my point stands. This is proof the Dev team listens to us, Even if they implemented it in an Ingeniously insidious way.

Orson

04-20-2011, 05:58 PM

Sp1cryan you really find camping NMs that much better than farming EPs? Seriously you guys just sound lazy. This is a 100% way to get pops and all you can do is complain. Wow you might actually have to pay attention to get pops, that's just ridiculous.

Also no I don't go on KI any more but it was hardly a joke of a site back in the day. I'd respond more then that but you're just being rude and derailing the thread so I'm just going to ignore it.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 05:58 PM

A lot of the complaints were for "Reasons to visit old zones"

So replace "Exp oldschool" with "Reasons to visit old zones" in my argument :(

I think my point stands. This is proof the Dev team listens to us, Even if they implemented it in an Ingeniously insidious way.

That scares me. The people who post here are not only generally clueless, but just post suggestions I hope never happen. It is sad the official forums had to end up this way. I remember SE posting on Zam saying they read the threads there, What ever happened to that? Zam is made fun of to, but it is not nearly as bad as the people here.

Daremo

04-20-2011, 06:00 PM

Kari

04-20-2011, 06:01 PM

A lot of the complaints were for "Reasons to visit old zones"

So replace "Exp oldschool" with "Reasons to visit old zones" in my argument :(

I think my point stands. This is proof the Dev team listens to us, Even if they implemented it in an Ingeniously insidious way.

lol, well still, Magians make me revisit old zones more than farming KSs ever will. [As farming KSs would likely just be one zone, forever.]
I only wish the DEV team listened to us closer, as we hoped for a slightly less tedious method of BB obtaining.

Karbuncle

04-20-2011, 06:02 PM

Replace 'ingeniously insidious' with 'maliciously stupid' and I'll agree with you.

I'll compromise

Maliciously ingenious.

Edit: Been using Google Translate to try and see how the JP's feel, and i can say, I have no clue.

I don't think they're upset as we are, but i think a few of them are upset about the removing BB items from NQs, But i also think a lot of them care more about D.ring and some Abj's than BB items.

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 06:08 PM

Ok lets get back on track...

I understand that people may like this change because it makes it 100% (meaning that instead of a chance at a chance (HNM claiming) you are practically guaranteed to fight NM X) - which on this aspect I'm all for. No one is calling for these things to be handed to them on a silver platter. At the end if it all, I'm trying to point out that Effort =/= Reward in the case of this particular update. Balancing Effort and Reward is one of the defining and fundamental things in game design - and in this instance there is a glaring unbalance.

Purrs

04-20-2011, 06:09 PM

I think this is kinda weak, too. My monk is level 15 and staying there, and as other have pointed out, almost all the other drops are worthless. Most of us will agree on the value of Defending Ring. I still think Ridill is a decent offhand weapon. Outside of that, these NMs don't mean much to me personally. That said, I think this system was a horrible idea. Someone posted about how we can solo the lower tier versions at this point. Now we're going to need full parties for KBC99. We also need seals, and that can take a while. Add on lower drop rates when you finally get through to the higher tier HNM. It's a ridiculously involved process. It's going to create a lot of congestion at the KBC arenas and spawn areas for a while. EXP parties are going to turn into kindred seal lotting wars lol. It's also going to be significantly easier to do mercenary activities. Now you can do a mercenary run at any time!

This is just illogical. I don't understand why Square-Enix thinks it needs to keep creating increasingly more annoying/draining time sinks in a game with so much content. I get they want our subscription dollars, but there's so much content, time sinks aren't prudent. Say what you want about WoW, but the reason it has like a billion times the subscribers as FFXI is because there is less time demand on the player and more sense of achievement. Why hasn't SE learned anything from the more successful competition? The terrible product that FF XIV shows clearly how out of touch SE is with the user base.

pheare

04-20-2011, 06:10 PM

I think people are just afraid of doing work. They use 'can't solo it' as an excuse.

As it stands now(and I'll use Behemoth as the example), people can solo the NQ mob. I usually have about 5 people trying to claim the NQ to solo it. so 20% chance of claim, and 15% chance of that to drop per day. So I'm looking at about 3% per day that I'm going to get my tongue. Plus there are days where the HQ pops that you won't be able to solo it. If it is NQ pop while the HQ window is open the chances of solo people claiming it over a party camping KB is even more slim.

I don't see why people don't have seals, but if you don't I think farming KS/finding a group/killing KS99 > NQ > HQ is going to be a lot better chance AND a lot faster than how it is now. You just have to put in more work into it.

Also, as an alternative, just exp inside abyssea and npc your crap for gil. A bunch of people want D. Rings, and those people also have a lot of Kindred seals. They're going to be doing this A LOT especially after the update. Just camp in the zone and when people come to kill offer them gil for the tongue if it drops, I guarantee you'll get one a lot faster than you can now.

Good move square enix. good move :)

Snaplin

04-20-2011, 06:11 PM

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 06:12 PM

I missed the 100% part.

You see, because making the HQs not drop the BB item most people are after when they fight it would be the exact opposite of 100%.

100% meaning, instead of having a chance to claim, it will be yours for sure.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 06:16 PM

/thread...

I <3 you.

Thank you, but if I ever got serious and posted more here (and got banned because honestly a person like me can't make it around here) you would find out that I am the person people love to hate.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 06:20 PM

100% meaning, instead of having a chance to claim, it will be yours for sure.

Yeah, yeah, I know.

Just saying it be much easier to just make the NM repop every 3-6 hours with the HQs being twice a day. That easily amounts to the NMs getting to a point where it is common to see them sitting up. People would still do the KSNM99 for the BB items too if they did not want to camp, and would not be pigeon holed into some stupid time sink.

Quetzacoatl

04-20-2011, 06:23 PM

All the whining here is hilarious.

Do you seriously want to go back to paying 10,000,000 gil to another LS for three Quest Items?

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 06:24 PM

Yeah, yeah, I know.

Just saying it be much easier to just make the NM repop every 3-6 hours with the HQs being twice a day. That easily amounts to the NMs getting to a point where it is common to see them sitting up. People would still do the KSNM99 for the BB items too if they did not want to camp, and would not be pigeon holed into some stupid time sink.

I'm not disagreeing with you by any means. I think this instance is a good compromise and would be a welcome change. My original point is that this HNM change is unacceptable because as you said it "pigeon hold[s players] into some stupid time sink.",

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 06:24 PM

All the whining here is hilarious.

Do you seriously want to go back to paying 10,000,000 gil to another LS for three Quest Items?

What is this? 2007?

Quetzacoatl

04-20-2011, 06:26 PM

What is this? 2007?

Considering 10 Mil would be a likely total for all 3 items...nah, not really.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 06:31 PM

Considering 10 Mil would be a likely total for all 3 items...nah, not really.

Oh, sorry, 2008.

Anyway, what makes you think if they did something more efficient like make the NQs pop every 3-6 hours that people be paying "10m" for a BB?

Most LSs probably would not even camp it as it not be worth the money. You would have little groups of friends low man it and charge that. The same people that sell Loki's Kaftan for 3m in Port Jeuno because people are dumb and buy it. We should make him a KSNM force pop too to solve it!

thefinalrune

04-20-2011, 06:40 PM

I can't wait to see the GM calls when people get out claimed on their popped NM.

- The NM will despawn if unclaimed for 90 seconds at the spawned location.
Pretty sure that implies that the kings will pop unclaimed. Boy what a fun voke fest that will become. Why bother camping or seal farming when you can just steal someone else's pop?

Quetzacoatl

04-20-2011, 06:49 PM

Oh, sorry, 2008.

Anyway, what makes you think if they did something more efficient like make the NQs pop every 3-6 hours that people be paying "10m" for a BB?

Most LSs probably would not even camp it as it not be worth the money. You would have little groups of friends low man it and charge that. The same people that sell Loki's Kaftan for 3m in Port Jeuno because people are dumb and buy it. We should make him a KSNM force pop too to solve it!

You can't compare Turul to an HNM that spawns once or twice every week. You just can't.

Orson

04-20-2011, 06:54 PM

No one uses with your staff and it causes you to have these ideas worthy of multiple facepalms. I am also not trying to derail this thread. Threads evolve and change with the discussion, and expecting one to stay on topic is simply against human nature.

People are not lazy for not wanting to do something absolutely boring and annoying. It is easier to have a ToD and get lucky with a pop soon after getting there. Even if it does not pop right away you have 30 minutes to have a real life. People do actually have those even if you seem to ignore that fact by wanting them to spend hours upon hours farming EPs in a six man group (once again, that will not really happen in such numbers commonly). You get 30 minutes to go do laundry, homework, clean the dishes, and so on.

Saying it is lazy to not spend hours farming KSs out of a preference to claim a time spawn like saying you want to get off a highway to travel on some dirt road because the highway is for lazy people with cruise control in their cars who don't have to even keep their foot on the pedal.

Please, find a little sense.

It's pretty sad you have to resort to trying petty insults about a double entendre in my sig. I also find it funny that you think I'm retarded because I think that you should actually have to play the game in order to be rewarded.

Lazy is by definition is an aversion to work or effort. Camping as you say is not really much effort because you can leave the game in between windows. Given your admission saying you prefer to camp over farming pops is confirming that you want to take a route that for you is easier and requires essentially less effort on your part. That is laziness unless you're just deluding yourself. I can understand you're saying the game should be fun and farming EPs is just plain boring but you also seem to be arguing that this system is worse than the previous. By your own admission you would rather be rewarded for randomly getting lucky than putting in a shred of effort. The new system a least makes sure the person is actually putting some effort into getting pops.

Rather than provide any ideas as to what a better system would be. You feel the need to deride anyone who is ok with these adjustments. I guess it's easier just to wish the death of countless people because they make suggestions you don't agree with you. That's obviously what any sensible person would suggest. We should eat bleach and die because you're so much superior then all us mouthbreathers.

Also as a note I'm not against them keeping the old system in addition to this one. It still stands though that unless BB items are like 10-20% drop rate off HQ kings this is a better system than the current.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 07:05 PM

It's pretty sad you have to resort to trying petty insults about a double entendre in my sig. I also find it funny that you think I'm retarded because I think that you should actually have to play the game in order to be rewarded.

Lazy is by definition is an aversion to work or effort. Camping as you say is not really much effort because you can leave the game in between windows. Given your admission saying you prefer to camp over farming pops is confirming that you want to take a route that for you is easier and requires essentially less effort on your part. That is laziness unless you're just deluding yourself. I can understand you're saying the game should be fun and farming EPs is just plain boring but you also seem to be arguing that this system is worse than the previous. By your own admission you would rather be rewarded for randomly getting lucky than putting in a shred of effort. The new system a least makes sure the person is actually putting some effort into getting pops.

Rather than provide any ideas as to what a better system would be. You feel the need to deride anyone who is ok with these adjustments. I guess it's easier just to wish the death of countless people because they make suggestions you don't agree with you. That's obviously what any sensible person would suggest. We should eat bleach and die because you're so much superior then all us mouthbreathers.

Sorry, I can not reply to you about how I find your points to be stupid silly and nonsensical, and how I think this could have been better done because I will get another email from SE and probably lose access to playing FFXI.

EDIT: SE also ninja edited their OP.

Orson

04-20-2011, 07:06 PM

Ya I thought so you can't come up with a reasonable argument that doesn't evolve insulting someone.

Sp1cyryan

04-20-2011, 07:09 PM

Ya I thought so you can't come up with a reasonable argument that doesn't evolve insulting someone.

Dear good sir. I respectfully have to decline to respond to your points. In fact I have to go back and delete my posts because SE is sending me modification emails left and right.

EDIT: Anyway, since hopefully there is nothing else SE will ban me for saying (since it must all be nice and fluffy apparently) I am going to go back to AH.com as I am being e-thuged out of here via email. If you actually do care for a response Orson I will give you one there, and will be somewhat serious about it as a treat.

Hmm, let me sneak something relevant in here.

Dear devs, balance the KC and KS drop rate a little more than pretty much always having a KC drop and this will be a non-issue.

RAIST

04-20-2011, 07:30 PM

Fafnir : Wyrm Beard removed
Nidhogg : Drop rate of Wyrm Beard decreased
Behemoth : Behemoth Tongue removed
King Behemoth : Drop rate of Behemoth Tongue decreased
Adamantoise : Adamantoise Egg removed
Aspidochelone : Drop rate of Adamantoise Egg decreased

what the .....??!! Why they gotta go and mess with the drops like that? It was only what--5-10% on the NQ's already. And dropping the rate on the HQ???!! After jumping through all the hoops to get to the fight, and you don't get the item and you have to start all over again? This is a just one big clusterf...

Fail.

Gadanae

04-20-2011, 07:47 PM

Good game SE, this ranks right up there with relieving Abyssea congestion by adding seals to the visions zones.

Umm.... not trying to be a jerk here but how does it cause MORE congestion in Abyssea zones when MORE mobs are being added that drop the items?? What we have is congestion now..... I personally hate having to basically fight for mobs for seals. Sorry, but what you are saying here is preposterous in my opinion.

darkvision

04-20-2011, 07:48 PM

People complain about people botting HNMs so SE finally does something about it,
Result = Lots of people QQing

People say that the gear is obsolite from HNMs, so SE changes the system since no one really cares,
Result = lots of people QQing(mostly people saying the gear is now obsolite)

People complain about other monopolizing the HNMs and you have to have a substantial amount of gil to complete Black belt, SE changes it
Result = Lots of people QQing

People say HNM is a dead scene so SE make changes,
Result = Lots of people QQing

so basically anything that gets complained about should stay as they are? coz if SE makes a change to a dead system you just complain even more? what the hell is people's problem?

TBH the system is dead and should make these HNMs more accessible. i personally quite like this idea of making the HNMs popable since this eliminates botters and monopolization. also BB quest become more leasurable.

imo people who complete BB should NOT get an atma for it. what to other jobs get? thats right nothing

people want to see changes so SE makes changes you all complain more. people say that HNMs sit untouched for hours and sometimes days coz onone really wants to do them now coz the gear is obsolite. or is all the QQing about the following:-

1) you all dont have any Kindred Seals?
2) used them all?
3) tossed them coz KS99 is dead?

i think this is the main reason for all the cimplaining about this change, having almost 1300 KS's is nice, now i have something thats worth using em for.

end of the day if you get forexample 6-12 people and spam KS99 then you spam Fafnir then you spam Nidhogg, you still get to fight it more often. oh wait, i get it, people thinking how they can benift/profit/get more out of it than anyone else, thats all its about. i personally dont mind using KS's for others to get the BB item

i am all for the change and cant wait for it and before you say that i am all for "easy mode" i aint, i dont even have mnk leveled, its level 1

and to be honest people need to get out abyssea more

Daniel_Hatcher

04-20-2011, 07:48 PM

I don't mind this way, but I have two issues.

1. If you happened to die after wasting 99 KS, fighting the Adamantoise for a KI and then someone can just wait around to steal it. Then it's messed up.

2. Why lessen the drop of the only item people do this for?

Tsuneo

04-20-2011, 08:12 PM

People who are expecting to spam HQ HNMs obviously don't realize that no where does it say the HQ pop items are 100% or even a decent drop rate, so basically 99 KS =/= HQ pop.

darkvision

04-20-2011, 08:20 PM

People who are expecting to spam HQ HNMs obviously don't realize that no where does it say the HQ pop items are 100% or even a decent drop rate, so basically 99 KS =/= HQ pop.

Fafnir: Treasure from “Early Bird Catches the Wyrm”
Nidhogg: Treasure dropped by Fafnir
Behemoth: Treasure from “Horns of War”
King Behemoth: Treasure dropped by Behemoth
Adamantoise: Treasure from “The Hills are Alive”
Aspidochelone: Treasure dropped by Adamantoise

* At least one of these items will be dropped in every battle.

also instead of just doing ks99 for a chance on an item, you get:-
* a chance on an item
* free nq king pop or multiple
* Possible multiple hq king pop (from NQ)
* and possible 2nd chance (if you beat nq)?

sounds like win for mnks they increased the chance to get BB item, people sound like KS are as rare as seing a d.ring drop get the hell out of abyssea then and do something else. SE never said anything about removing BB item from KS99 so untill they say so expect that it does since theydid mention that BB items are removed from NQ kings

edited to reflect OP edit

RAIST

04-20-2011, 08:21 PM

People who are expecting to spam HQ HNMs obviously don't realize that no where does it say the HQ pop items are 100% or even a decent drop rate, so basically 99 KS =/= HQ pop.

And there is the rub. Do the KS99 for NQ pop item, which no longer has a chance to drop the target item--but can drop pop for HQ version. Now that HQ version will have a reduced drop rate. So, now you may have to do 3 fights and if you still have an unlucky roll and don't get the item, you have to do it ALL again.

Dropping the rate on the HQ doesn't bother me so much so long as the rate stays high and is not the 5-10% rates like some have seen with some of the NQ versions in the past--but I really don't get why they are pulling the drop from the NQ version all together.

1/5 chance to get item from KS99 fight, 100% chance to get NQ pop item
Fight NQ NM for what used to be 1/10 chance for item, now removed--but might get pop item for HQ NM (they didn't state if the HQ pop item will be 100% or what--imagine if it isn't).
Fight HQ NM for a chance to get item (drop rate unknown, but USED to be 100%).

So if you don't get the drop from the KS99 or the HQ NM , now you've done 3 fights and have to start over again. If you don't get it from the KS99 again, then you have 2 more fights and might still not get it. That means 6 fights and still no drop--and have to do it again.

In short, this has the potential to have a much worse drop rate than just spammning the KS99 as it is now.

Tsuneo

04-20-2011, 08:24 PM

Daniel_Hatcher

04-20-2011, 08:25 PM

also instead of just doing ks99 for a chance on an item, you get:-
* a chance on an item
* free nq king pop
* free hq king pop (from NQ)
* and 2nd chance (if you beat nq)?

sounds like win for mnks they increased the chance to get BB item, people sound like KS are as rare as seing a d.ring drop get the hell out of abyssea then and do something else. SE never said anything about removing BB item from KS99 so untill they say so expect that it does since theydid mention that BB items are removed from NQ kings

Fafnir: Treasure from “Early Bird Catches the Wyrm”
Behemoth: Treasure from “Horns of War”
Adamantoise: Treasure from “The Hills are Alive”
* At least one of these items will be dropped in every battle.

Nidhogg: Treasure dropped by Fafnir
King Behemoth: Treasure dropped by Behemoth
Aspidochelone: Treasure dropped by AdamantoiseSo by the sounds of it, only the KSNM is 100% drop, with a chance for multiple drops from the KSNM.

So basically, 1 step forward, 196465745686749867459857389579846749865374 steps back.

darkvision

04-20-2011, 08:27 PM

So by the sounds of it, only the KSNM is 100% drop, with a chance for multiple drops from the KSNM.

So basically, 1 step forward, 196465745686749867459857389579846749865374 steps back.

well they changed that from when they first posted but still gives possible more chances to get BB items

Dazusu

04-20-2011, 08:40 PM

Did you actually read the post? They giving us the ability to fight these way more often. You can farm KSs really really easily. Whether any people with fight anything other than King Behemoth will remain to be seen.

Did YOU actually read the post?

This is the only way to get Black Belt items. How you can even suggest people might only kill KB is beyond me.

The king system just got a lot more tedious. You thought fighting against bots was bad; now you have to farm seals for hours and hours a day.

For those of you who bought your black belt items for 2m against botters, consider yourselves lucky. You got it easy.

You cry for change, you get change. Doesn't mean that change will always be good.

Daniel_Hatcher

04-20-2011, 08:42 PM

Did YOU actually read the post?

This is the only way to get Black Belt items. How you can even suggest people might only kill KB is beyond me.

The king system just got a lot more tedious. You thought fighting against bots was bad; now you have to farm seals for hours and hours a day.

For those of you who bought your black belt items for 2m against botters, consider yourselves lucky. You got it easy.

You cry for change, you get change. Doesn't mean that change will always be good.

If you don't need the belt, the only KSNM you'll fight is K. Behemoth, Hello Defending Ring!!!

Dazusu

04-20-2011, 08:46 PM

If you don't need the belt, the only KSNM you'll fight is K. Behemoth, Hello Defending Ring!!!

Farming for a solid 8 hours (and this assumes optimal drop rate on Kindred Seals - as we all know, nothing is optimal in this game) for a chance at a D. Ring, given it's known drop rate - not bloody likely.

Tsuneo

04-20-2011, 08:48 PM

Dazusu

04-20-2011, 08:48 PM

Pretty sure that implies that the kings will pop unclaimed. Boy what a fun voke fest that will become. Why bother camping or seal farming when you can just steal someone else's pop?

Really? You really just posted that? Troll.

Randwolf

04-20-2011, 08:49 PM

First, I'll start with the point that S/E has mentioned it is looking at adding an item that is something akin to the BB. So, this may change the desire by Monks to fight these mobs in the first place. I would add though, that just like the other previously hard to get gear, the current BB should get the same treatment as things like Byako's Haidate where you can upgrade it to a degree.

Secondly, the drop rate for the BB items has been lowered on the King version. Since the old rate was 100%, I'm going to assume that it would not be an abysmal drop rate. Since, you could achieve the same thing by doing the BCNM in the first place. If the BCNM still drops the items also, then it means you fight 3 mobs for 2 chances at the item.

Finally, it does seem like kind of a weird path to pop these nm's. First, to a BCNM. Then, travel to a zone.

Also, I'm guessing when you pop it, the nm pops claimed. It wouldn't make sense to have it pop any other way.

People were asking for a system that allowed them to get a chance at the Kings. Now you have it. And, you can have a chance to purchase the items like the old days. Watch for shouts in Jueno for the BB items on sale. Undoubtedly, groups of people will do these to sell the items for gil, just like the old days when the HNM shells had to make the claim then shout for buyers who bothered to show for the windows. On top of that, the bonus to the shells is that they don't have to watch stuff drop to the ground because no buyer was in the zone. Now, the shells can gather up their buyers and head to the zones.

Dazusu

04-20-2011, 08:51 PM

Do the sensible thing, make the pop items drop off of darters/valley manticores/elementals for Faf, Adaman, Behemoth respectively. Low drop rate similar to that of Ullikumi pop item in Sky.

Daniel_Hatcher

04-20-2011, 08:56 PM

Juilan

04-20-2011, 08:57 PM

I think the biggest issue with tis is the work of camping the monster in a 3hr window for the item is relatively little. the work to kill a KS99, Kill an NQ and then kill the HQ is a little much for the chance at a belt item or a dring. I could see a justification in doing this if they increased the drop rate on items like riddle and dring and spiar. or if they added better items to the KS99s the NQs and like I said upped drop rates on the HQs. This does seem like an excuse to make people spend more of their time farming kindred seals that drop with a shared value and a unique value in the treasure pool with four other items, which are just as useless, after this update they'll be more useless. I wouldn't complain if I could take say 50 crests or 10 H crests and get a 99 orb, that'd be equa effort as camping in my opinion. keep in mind this is coming from someone who's camped KB for 8 months straight without seeing a D ring drop, no job no school, 24/7 LS.

I'd rather camp the NQs with the mnk, solo them on my mnk (less fafnir, solo that on pld) then take a whm or something else along for the HQ window or ask them to show up.

final note I HOPE THEY GIVE US BETTER ITEMS OR BETTER DROP RATES ON THE NONE BLACK BELT ITEMS WITH THIS OR IT WOULD SEEM MORE OF A HASSLE THAN ITS WORTH TO DO IT MULTIPLE TIMES FOR ONE MONK.

also, the dan go black belt, will require a black belt, enjoy~

they could include a 100% drop to this for the voidwalkers or w/e, at the moment it still doesn't seem worth it

they should also give us like a 5% drop rate like that ACP item off normal mobs and give us a 25% drop rate off the monsters in zone (TH not affecting)

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 08:58 PM

Do the sensible thing, make the pop items drop off of darters/valley manticores/elementals for Faf, Adaman, Behemoth respectively. Low drop rate similar to that of Ullikumi pop item in Sky.

Now this is what I was hoping they would do!

Babygyrl

04-20-2011, 09:00 PM

this change is really lame.. espeically the fact that se is removing the bb items from the baby versions AND decreasing it on kings... wtf se? should have just left it alone at that point..

KigenAngelios

04-20-2011, 09:03 PM

Its good to see that other people realize that the Effort =/= the Reward on this system

Arcon

04-20-2011, 09:25 PM

Farming for a solid 8 hours (and this assumes optimal drop rate on Kindred Seals - as we all know, nothing is optimal in this game) for a chance at a D. Ring, given it's known drop rate - not bloody likely.

As it is right now, I have no chance at a Defending Ring (except for Bonanza maybe). And this new system doesn't sound like a small chance, it sounds like an incredible chance, or at least an incredible improvement in overall drop rate. Right now there's what, 1 Defending Ring a year? What are the chances of you obtaining it? This may require 8 hours of effort, may even require 100 hours of effort, it would still greatly improve your chances. 100 hours to get a 5% chance for the drop, compare that with right now, ~100 hour average spawn (optimistically speaking), 50% claim chance (as if), 5% drop rate, 20% lot chance (vs. 4 people.. as if). That means you'll get a Defending Ring after roughly 20,000 hours. Assuming this new system takes a 100 hours effort (farming + KS99 fight + several NQ fights, which is still a pessimistic estimate), 5% drop rate, that's a Defending Ring after 2,000 hours. Even with these ridiculous estimates, the new system is 10 times better than the old. And you don't have to lot against others, because everyone can bring their own trig. No outlotting, no claimwars, that will increase your chances drastically.

The only thing I dislike is farming stuff for countless hours, personally I prefer lazy camping, even if there's less chance of obtaining an item. I'm a bit disappointed that the countless of anti-grinding threads, especially promoted by Abyssea, seem to have fallen on deaf ears at the development team. I can even see BB items increasing in drop rate, unless the new drop rate is incredibly low (like 10% for or something).

Do the sensible thing, make the pop items drop off of darters/valley manticores/elementals for Faf, Adaman, Behemoth respectively. Low drop rate similar to that of Ullikumi pop item in Sky.

I would prefer that also, but if you think about i, people would be claimbotting those 24/7. Would be worse than ground kings pre-Abyssea.

In any case, unless the new trigger/item droprates are really low, it should increase the drop rate overall. It may be more annoying to obtain, but it's faster and easier, and not as many frustrations for getting outclaimed after camping for three hours straight for three days.

Randwolf

04-20-2011, 09:34 PM

Dazusu

04-20-2011, 09:38 PM

I think you'll find, Arcon, the new system is a lot worse. Not only do you have to farm seals for 8-10 hours, but in addition to this you have to find the motivation to do it. That's going to be the hard part.

Sitting my character in a zone for 3 hours once a day is much easier, and gets much better results than 8-10 hours of monotonous grinding against EP/TWs

I thought the whole idea with SE lately was to spend more time away from the game, ie, AFK leeching in Abyssea, 1-90 in 2-3 days, etc etc. Now they want us to sit and farm for 8-10 hours for what is going to arguably be gear that is even more redundant once this update hits than it is now?

People argued against the HNM system, got the change they wanted. Can't say I'm particularly pleased with it - and I bet the ones who argued for this change aren't pleased either.

xiozen

04-20-2011, 09:50 PM

That doesn't mean shit... Who has the time to sit and farm KS's off retarded mobs to get people to drag them out to a KS99 to kill for a pop to pop a NQ to pop an HQ to do that all over... At least the time was spanned over HQ/NQ days. People cried about 3hours... congrats spending even more time trying to get a pop for a effing HNM that's going to be 10x more pain in the ass to get an item off of.

Honestly, I fail to see the problem... if you want a Black belt, do what you need to do to acquire the freakin item... last time I looked FFXI was and still is an MMO... Massively Multiplayer Online game... time sinks are where its at. Granted... the current development team has been more than generous (for obvious reasons) as to decrease the time sinks across the board for a g-enormous amount of things (quests, missions, items etc)... this item... the ever uber Black Belt is one which I can't possibly see them making "easy to get"... until something else trumps this item; I say, "WORK for it." If you REALLY REALLY want it... put on your gloves and do the work. Get people to help you if need be.. but to sit back and whine about having to farm kindred seals, pleassssee... /wrist

xiozen

04-20-2011, 09:59 PM

As it is right now, I have no chance at a Defending Ring (except for Bonanza maybe). And this new system doesn't sound like a small chance, it sounds like an incredible chance, or at least an incredible improvement in overall drop rate. Right now there's what, 1 Defending Ring a year? What are the chances of you obtaining it? This may require 8 hours of effort, may even require 100 hours of effort, it would still greatly improve your chances. 100 hours to get a 5% chance for the drop, compare that with right now, ~100 hour average spawn (optimistically speaking), 50% claim chance (as if), 5% drop rate, 20% lot chance (vs. 4 people.. as if). That means you'll get a Defending Ring after roughly 20,000 hours. Assuming this new system takes a 100 hours effort (farming + KS99 fight + several NQ fights, which is still a pessimistic estimate), 5% drop rate, that's a Defending Ring after 2,000 hours. Even with these ridiculous estimates, the new system is 10 times better than the old. And you don't have to lot against others, because everyone can bring their own trig. No outlotting, no claimwars, that will increase your chances drastically.

The only thing I dislike is farming stuff for countless hours, personally I prefer lazy camping, even if there's less chance of obtaining an item. I'm a bit disappointed that the countless of anti-grinding threads, especially promoted by Abyssea, seem to have fallen on deaf ears at the development team. I can even see BB items increasing in drop rate, unless the new drop rate is incredibly low (like 10% for or something).

I would prefer that also, but if you think about i, people would be claimbotting those 24/7. Would be worse than ground kings pre-Abyssea.

In any case, unless the new trigger/item droprates are really low, it should increase the drop rate overall. It may be more annoying to obtain, but it's faster and easier, and not as many frustrations for getting outclaimed after camping for three hours straight for three days.

QFT... finally someone who understands that this change is a welcome relief to a system which is outdated and to this day, has ousted anyone who has a full-time job, or go to school full-time and can't devote 24-72 hours sitting in the game waiting for a mob to spawn only to have it taken away by a botter... come-on people--this system is akin to what SE is doing to address RMT-fishing schemes... it will require work on the part of the person/persons who REALLY want the items that drop but guess what...you'll finally get a chance. Prior to this, you DON'T have a snowball's chance in hell, now you do... /cheers!

Juilan

04-20-2011, 10:03 PM

What I see in every one of these threads is 3 types of people:

1) People who look at each change and decide whether the change is good, bad, or not really either.

2) People who aren't satisfied unless the game reverts to the way it was pre-Abyssea, complete with all the ridiculous roadblocks

3) People who want to log in and be given level 99 on all jobs, plus all their equipment, and all quests, missions, and mobs must be solo-able (a slight exaggeration)

im not either of them, i just think they're fixing a working system by throwing a rabid monkey at it, yes it could use some improvements, but when people stopped camping these monsters after abyssea came out, they did that because the abjurations were no long worth buying the cursed gear for. if they really wanted to change things up, give them new items and a shorter spawn window, give us an HQ ever 3 hours, you'd still have a lot of people not camping it, or better yet, slightly increase drop rates and change it like dynamis, dont make the players farm stuff for the same or worse drop rate so they can NPC a lot of junk that they made obsolete by adding them into gold chests

LeaderofAtlantis

04-20-2011, 10:05 PM

Ok first let me say that, as someone who hates sitting around for 3 hours, I like their idea. I never really joined a HNM LS (unless friends in one invited me a long with their LS). So while I understand this process takes a bit more actually effort (since you can't bot anymore if you were a botter), it gives people like me a chance to fight things we've never fought before. Yeah I've fought Adamantoise (in Nyzul and VoS), Behemoth (Nyzul only), and Fafnir (Nyzul only), but I've never had the pleasure of fighting the HQ forms of these.

As for Black Belt seekers, I kind of understand being upset about them removing those items from the drop pool of the NQ versions, but nothing was said to indicate those items would be removed from the KS99 fights, so with more people probably wanting to do those, you still have pretty good hope. Also, to make the Black Belt any easier to obtain than it is right now would take away something I think. I mean, no other melee job has a belt that's even on par with it.

Finally, for all we know, with the introduction of the Kindred's Crest and HKC storage system, they may also introduce a system in which we can trade these like we do with Imperial Coins. 1 HKC = 5 KC; 1 KC = 5 KS; 1 KS = 5 BS - that seems the most reasonable to me. We just don't know what other crazy things they have coming down the pipe.

Arcon

04-20-2011, 10:28 PM

I think you'll find, Arcon, the new system is a lot worse. Not only do you have to farm seals for 8-10 hours, but in addition to this you have to find the motivation to do it. That's going to be the hard part.

I know, and I definitely agree, that's why I said I wasn't really too happy about it personally. I absolutely hate grinding, it's why I won't ever bother with an empyrean weapon, I don't like the idea of mindlessly killing mobs every 5min for some stupid seals, especially with my permanent inventory issues.

But overall I think most people won't mind. I really don't know why, but many people seem to be rather content with the grinding system, just look at all the people doing ridiculous trials, kill 500 mobs in weather, kill 600 without, etc., I think many people will embrace that system. Who knows, maybe even they will get tired of it eventually, but I'm pretty sure we'll see the number of Defending Rings go up drastically soon, and that will help motivate more people.

I guess SE relies on grinding to extend this game's lifetime, if people want a Defending Ring, that will keep them busy for days and weeks, possibly months, same (but to lower extent) goes for Black Belt items. It's the only explanation I can come up with why they're doing something like this.

I honestly don't know what to think of it, it's the trade off between tons of effort vs. tons of luck. It may sound stupid, but I was always more of an advocate for the luck category, although if possible I would prefer tons of challenge instead. But that's something SE has been ignoring for some time now.

I know I'll blow the Kindred's Seals I have on this, see how far it gets me, but I doubt it'll be enough for a Defending Ring. Let's just see how this turns out.

Kiine

04-20-2011, 10:57 PM

See that bright red ribbon on the horizon? It's comprised entirely of angry monks without Black Belts who are now carrying torches. Some DEV clarification (and/or re-thought) on the fate of the three items most people care about from the Ground Kings would be a good idea.

Natenn

04-20-2011, 11:27 PM

I'm sorry but all i see is ppl qqing that drops aren't being handed to em. But hey, you guys all cried about not wanting to fight for claim over HNM, there you go. You have just made it even more inconvenient and ruined sentimental value for Defending Ring since now everyone will be popping KB. But with this move i have a strong feeling that new kings with 21hr to 24hr will be added at Lv99 to replace old kings.

Arcon

04-20-2011, 11:40 PM

Glamdring

04-21-2011, 12:03 AM

I can't believe you guys are seriously complaining about this, you can get KS off any mob 50+ and with a 90 you could go to Monastic caverns and pick up enough in about an hour. Crests drop so much I've been throwing them all away for the last 2 months (and I still have 10 stacks of normal and 3 stacks of HQ saved just in case they ever get useful). I love this change. Now maybe someone on Caitsith will get a chance to get Behemoth instead of (I think) Amonk and his LS, I've got leather to make and I refuse to reward these monopolists with my $, so I get my mats from other sources (or simply do synths that don't involve behemoth parts).

For that matter-prepare for a revolutionary concept-level a lower level job and get your seals the old-fashioned way, by earning them! This is especially easy if you solo (I'm currently sitting on 1300 KS with the Storage NPC, and that's with frequently tossing the things in the field if I get a drop that's worth more than 100 gil to NPC and need the space), since everything that drops is yours. Bust out your thief, put on a crow's set, head to monastic caverns and go nuts.

darkvision

04-21-2011, 12:05 AM

I think you'll find, Arcon, the new system is a lot worse. Not only do you have to farm seals for 8-10 hours, but in addition to this you have to find the motivation to do it. That's going to be the hard part.

if you cant motivate yourself to do it then imo you dont deserve the final item. granted you can pay the gil to get it, being the easy way out, but as i said if you cant be assed to motivate yourself you dont deserve it

ShadowHeart

04-21-2011, 12:31 AM

fail fail fail.... if u dont have 99 K seals and a regular trustworthy group to do them with your screwed....
i prefer to play with a nice small group of 3-4 friends and most of these NM's are able to be camped with this nice small group.... why not just reduce the spawn times
not like hnm's even bother with these camps anymore anyways why mess up something the normal person / group can finally farm ... at 90 who wants to sit around for 9 hours farming seals when can be camping nm's doing magian trials etc....

Denabond

04-21-2011, 12:32 AM

Wow. Just wow. Really, the fact that now you don't have to compete with HNMLSs anymore has everyone complaining now? I'm glad they did it like this. Is it worse then before? In a sense, yes and no. Yes in the sense that its harder to get because you need to get 99 KS > NQ > HQ for a chance at BB item (since it seems that is all everyone cares about). No in that you can slowly work up to it instead of being forced to wake up in the middle of the night for window, or missing out on the item cause you cant make it during its day time pop. No more competing with HNMLSs. And to the people who complain about the reduced drop rate of BB items, you do realize the item in question is undisputedly the best belt in the game? The items SHOULD be hard to get. So really, just suck it up, and farm the KSs (which as some people have said, is not that hard) and eventually you will get it.

Arcon

04-21-2011, 01:16 AM

with a 90 you could go to Monastic caverns and pick up enough in about an hour.

Try it and you'll quickly see why this doesn't work.

if you cant motivate yourself to do it then imo you dont deserve the final item. granted you can pay the gil to get it, being the easy way out, but as i said if you cant be assed to motivate yourself you dont deserve it

That's your opinion. My opinion is you don't deserve it if you can't beat a challenge. Mindlessly collecting 99 items that drop every 5min at best is not my idea of a challenge, it's just tedious, as is every single trial out there. It's a system that was designed to stretch out FFXI's lifetime by endless monotony.

if u dont have 99 K seals and a regular trustworthy group to do them with your screwed....
i prefer to play with a nice small group of 3-4 friends

While, in general, I agree with your sentiment, I'm guessing you can also do KS99s with a group of 3~4 people by now. I didn't try since level 80, but even then it was a lot easier.

darkvision

04-21-2011, 01:37 AM

Done turtle KS99 at lvl85 and destroyed it on ~4-6 mins its not all that hard now, that was with 10 mages and 2 DD

Donwu

04-21-2011, 01:48 AM

ShadowHeart

04-21-2011, 01:57 AM

why not make it so it pops sooner? really waste ur time farming 99 k seals to camp a NM that used to spawn for free...
there been times recently where behemoth and KB have just been sitting there and people havent killed it for a while on my server this only fixes the QQ of the monks

too us old timers who have done all our jobs to 75+ before abbyssea and love the fun of the camp which was the initial ideas of ffxi just now contours to the WOW QQ babies

why not just have it so u trade 99 kseals to npc get pop item and go do ur thing double fight with bunch people u don't know or like ain't too fun for me

Chaani

04-21-2011, 02:08 AM

Umm.... not trying to be a jerk here but how does it cause MORE congestion in Abyssea zones when MORE mobs are being added that drop the items?? What we have is congestion now..... I personally hate having to basically fight for mobs for seals. Sorry, but what you are saying here is preposterous in my opinion.

Because said congestion is for contested mobs involving empyrean weapons turning Gukumatz's spawn area into Dragon's Aery circa 2007. But sure I guess you're right, maybe now I'll have one or two less full pink dancers camping Gukumatz.

Badtaru

04-21-2011, 02:15 AM

This isn't a bad idea. Everyone complains and cries about the amount of people who have aby-burned all their jobs to 90. aby-burn to 90 = no KS. The number of people who are getting BB items and are skilling H2H in the dunes is ridiculous. I was actually asked by a 90 THF the other day how to get to the boyahda tree. I remember trying to compete against some botting jerkoff for KB on Remora just to make an ATTEMPT at getting black belt items. It's a countermeasure put in place to force you to interact with the game outside of abyssea. How is that a bad thing? I for one don't want to have to play WoW in a ffxi format. Putting some time and effort into something isn't that big of a deal. If you have the time to camp the HNM, then you have time to get 99 KS, which btw you can get in terrigan without getting any kindred crests. Not too hard. Just makes the NM's obtainable by people who don't work a job irl then get fired to draw unemployment and camp.
I have leveled all my jobs before abyssea but I also used up most of my KS before in various KS99s and since abyssea (the only content that matters right now) I have gotten no KS. Abyssea already being a huge time sink with farming seals, +2 items, and emp weapon items there just isn't time to work on farming other mobs too for KS.

Camping an HNM is a lot less time investment than farming KS. Once you have the tod for an hnm you only have to pay attention for ~1 min every 30 mins for at most 7 windows. In between (as I am sure most people do) you can do other things be it crafting or doing something else more productive outside of the game. Forcing people to have to spend hours to farm one KS99 pop, then time to gather a group to kill the KS99 is a much greater time sink than just camping for a few hours a day. While it may make it more convenient for some people, it is a real pain to others that are just trying to obtain the item they want in a reasonable timespan.

I think the general idea for this is a decent idea (possibly make it easy to buy BB items) but the use of KS make it poorly implemented. Maybe if you could get pop items from KC bcnms as well as KS99s it would be more worthwhile especially if they want to use synergy to make this old gear worth getting again.

Malamasala

04-21-2011, 02:17 AM

As I used to say. SE are finally getting down to those suggestions sent in 2004. I'm sure poppable Fafnirs were plentiful then.

Personally I think it sounds like another SEA. A system you'll notice is just not worth doing until they update it.

ShadowHeart

04-21-2011, 02:33 AM

Trigger conditions for following notorious monsters will be adjusted to spawn by trading specific items to the “???” in the respective area.

Fafnir / Nidhogg: Dragon’s Aery
Behemoth / King Behemoth: Behemoth’s Dominion
Adamantoise / Aspidochelone: Valley of Sorrows

now won't it be fun to get the pop item and fafnir spawning instead of nihdogg as it says the BB items been removed from fafnir drops LOL

The treasures dropped by the following notorious monsters will be adjusted as follows:

Fafnir : Wyrm Beard removed
Nidhogg : Drop rate of Wyrm Beard decreased
Behemoth : Behemoth Tongue removed
King Behemoth : Drop rate of Behemoth Tongue decreased
Adamantoise : Adamantoise Egg removed
Aspidochelone : Drop rate of Adamantoise Egg decreased

lets see how happy people will be getting the wrong NM random spawn wasting 99 Kseals on trigger lol

Chaani

04-21-2011, 02:36 AM

now won't it be fun to get the pop item and fafnir spawning instead of nihdogg as it says the BB items been removed from fafnir drops LOL

What? I think you misread the DEV post.

How to obtain the trigger items:

Fafnir: Treasure from “Early Bird Catches the Wyrm”
Behemoth: Treasure from “Horns of War”
Adamantoise: Treasure from “The Hills are Alive”
* At least one of these items will be dropped in every battle.

Nidhogg: Treasure dropped by Fafnir
King Behemoth: Treasure dropped by Behemoth
Aspidochelone: Treasure dropped by Adamantoise

blowfin

04-21-2011, 02:58 AM

if you cant motivate yourself to do it then imo you dont deserve the final item. granted you can pay the gil to get it, being the easy way out, but as i said if you cant be assed to motivate yourself you dont deserve it
That's your opinion. My opinion is you don't deserve it if you can't beat a challenge. Mindlessly collecting 99 items that drop every 5min at best is not my idea of a challenge, it's just tedious, as is every single trial out there. It's a system that was designed to stretch out FFXI's lifetime by endless monotony.

Actually no, it's a fact. If you don't want to put in the effort you don't get a Black Belt. The challenge is farming your seals and doing the NM's. It's quite simple.

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 03:01 AM

I laughed. You all whine and complain how it should be force popped (even though on my server these things sometimes sit up for hours) and now you complain its unfair. Did you honestly think an item to pop fafnir would drop off a darter or something even triggers for gods drop off NM's. Now instead of sitting in aery for 3hrs you can farm for 8hrs 15Mins (more like 34hrs since it shares with up to 4 other spots in the pool and lets face it its not going to drop every 5mins exactly) for a KS 99 to pop a fafnir for a chance at fighting nidhogg which will drop your belt as for BB item at a reduced rate and these items have to take up some spot in the pool from KS99 so i would not be shocked at all if it takes that spot for the BB item as a chance at a 2nd trigger (since by the way it looks it MIGHT drop more than 1). AND YOU GET TO DO THIS ALL 3 TIMES YAYAYAYAY

So realistically if they keep the odds of fafnir dropping an nidhogg pop as it is for it spawning (1/4-8) you have a ~20% shot at MAYBE getting your trigger for a CHANCE at your fight for BB \(^-^)/ (About 170hrs or more of KS farming) so if its 50% drop rate from the HQ king and you need to do it 3x thats about 1020HRS (42.5 days straight or 127.5 days at 8hrs per day) (thats time spent working on farming seals not counting sleep work gathering people FOR the fights doing the fights and such pure farming KS) per black belt ^.~

tl:dr
enjoy this hole you dug yourselves glad I got my crap before this change

Starcade

04-21-2011, 03:33 AM

This is probably the worst way to go about it. I get wanting to limit the amount of spamming of these HNMs but seriously you are making doing these HNMs exponentially difficult to do partially because of the fact that most high level players are no longer obtaining Kindred Seals.

And you think that wasn't the point of all this?

WAH WAH WAH, I can't use my bots to deny other players this content, WAH WAH FREAKING WAH... Most people who do this content have no business in this freaking game!

GO SCREW!!

Seriously.

The whole intent of this was to blow up the process as it currently was, and I'm glad they are doing something about it (years too late -- and still not enough!) to start denying the people who SHOULD be denied content the content.

Also are the trophy items being removed from the KS99 BCs? Do the NQ Kings drop HQ King pop items all the time (ie 100%)? All of this on top of making black belt harder to get by taking away the 100% from the HQs.This system is so convoluted now - pop-HNM are worse. Is there any upside? Will Ridill and Defending ring and Abj. be 100% now?

Who said there has to be an upside, rather than making these situations non-bottable...

Starcade

04-21-2011, 03:37 AM

Actually no, it's a fact. If you don't want to put in the effort you don't get a Black Belt. The challenge is farming your seals and doing the NM's. It's quite simple.

You're presuming that people who have the stuff actually wanted to put in the effort.

Stop that -- you're not in the Japanese forums.

Catsby

04-21-2011, 03:45 AM

I think it's a step in the right direction. Hopefully there are modifications to the monsters involved in the system as well. I always remember having a harder time fighting with the KSNMs than the world spawns and it would be awesome to see a increase in challenge as you go through the new system.

Karbuncle

04-21-2011, 03:52 AM

This thread go real stupid when i went to bed >____>

I particularly enjoyed one person complaining "WE GET A CHANCE TO POP <NM> AND A CHANCE TO GET D.RING"

As opposed to Getting a CHANCE at NQ behemoth, or a CHANCE at HQ behemoth, for a CHANCE to Claim it, for a CHANCE at Dring?

Oh boy. You guys crack me up.

God help me, I don't care if i get a Brain Tumor for reading all these posts, I just can't help myself.

Kavik

04-21-2011, 04:01 AM

Arcon

04-21-2011, 04:14 AM

Actually no, it's a fact. If you don't want to put in the effort you don't get a Black Belt. The challenge is farming your seals and doing the NM's. It's quite simple.

No point arguing over defnitions. There's no rule about having to work for your rewards. How do you explain Mog Bonanza then? A cosmological injustice?

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 04:19 AM

No point arguing over defnitions. There's no rule about having to work for your rewards. How do you explain Mog Bonanza then? A cosmological injustice?

act of god its real and insurance does not cover it (says so specifically)

Leon_Kasai

04-21-2011, 04:22 AM

While this system could indeed work much better than the old HNM system, I think leaving the entry cost at 99 Kindred Seals is a bit excessive with their current drop rate.

Dazusu

04-21-2011, 04:31 AM

if you cant motivate yourself to do it then imo you dont deserve the final item. granted you can pay the gil to get it, being the easy way out, but as i said if you cant be assed to motivate yourself you dont deserve it

Funny, when the 'elitests' used that argument for HNM; all the noobs cried that all items should be accessible regardless of the amount of effort/time you put forth. Choose one side or another. You can't have it all.

Dazusu

04-21-2011, 04:36 AM

pick up enough in about an hour.

Seals are limited to one per party per five minutes. So good luck with that.

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 04:42 AM

I highly doubt people will even sell stuff like blackbelt items anymore unless your willing to pay like 10M-15M the time just would not be worth it unless doing it already and really.... most people wont be doing it already. The inaccessable looks to be getting more inaccessable.

Catsby

04-21-2011, 04:47 AM

Looks like it's going to be as inaccessible as anything these days. I see shout groups for bosses all the time so I don't know why this wouldn't make kings easier. Slower? maybe.

Sovereign

04-21-2011, 04:53 AM

Funny, when the 'elitests' used that argument for HNM; all the noobs cried that all items should be accessible regardless of the amount of effort/time you put forth. Choose one side or another. You can't have it all.

LOL yup, I was having this EXACT same thought.

But as I posted earlier in this thread... they could give everyone what they want by simply using both systems. Leave world spawns as they are for the players willing to camp, and supplement them with this proposed trigger system. That way all of us hardcore HNM guys can continue the way we always have, and the rest can still have their opportunity to fight the HNMs and obtain the gear without some of the "headaches" that come with camping.

I totally agree that if you cant find the motivation to do the content then you do not deserve the rewards. Now I'm glad I got nearly every HNM drop (sans D.Ring, of course) back in the day... because I sure have zero desire to spend countless hours farming EPs for seals.

/sigh I sure do miss the days of a competition-fueled Aery.

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 04:53 AM

Looks like it's going to be as inaccessible as anything these days. I see shout groups for bosses all the time so I don't know why this wouldn't make kings easier. Slower? maybe.

Zone bosses take 15mins to get a pop set for most drop things people want (empy items atma etc) takes 3mins to kill and everyone goes seperate ways.

KS30 I gave up after 5hrs of shouting to get a group together when it was actually still worth something (Royal Ramble) can't imagine how annoying after spending days farming for 1 KS99 orb its gonna be to try and get a group together that can kill the KS99 then kill faf and then if lucky kill hogg (or other kings whatever works for you)

sorry you can't really compair a king vs a zone boss in terms of time and ease

Catsby

04-21-2011, 05:10 AM

Zone bosses take 15mins to get a pop set for most drop things people want (empy items atma etc) takes 3mins to kill and everyone goes seperate ways.

KS30 I gave up after 5hrs of shouting to get a group together when it was actually still worth something (Royal Ramble) can't imagine how annoying after spending days farming for 1 KS99 orb its gonna be to try and get a group together that can kill the KS99 then kill faf and then if lucky kill hogg (or other kings whatever works for you)

sorry you can't really compair a king vs a zone boss in terms of time and ease

Except you can. While current in demand content is higher level and more "difficult" it's evened out by atmas, brew and an seemingly never ending stream of people who want to do it. Every day I log in there are shout groups for Rani, +2 mat bosses and other NM hunts. I know because I spent a week doing it for an empyrean weapon trial and witnessing others doing it as well. Fafnir and Co. should be just as easy when the update comes because it's going to be in a spotlight for everyone to see. The simple idea that you don't need to camp for king items anymore is like an electric can opener in a crazy old cat lady's house. We can also pretty much guarantee that no changes will be made to the monsters involved in the new system. Remember that these things were taken down by one or two parties of players at level 75 when merits and awesome gear were hard to find. These days top gear can be gotten by pick up groups and getting 20 merit points in a day is as simple as standing by a dominion sergeant NPC. In other words, pick up groups are going to destroy kings ( I would love to be proven wrong though)

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 05:16 AM

Except you can. While current in demand content is higher level and more "difficult" it's evened out by atmas, brew and an seemingly never ending stream of people who want to do it. Every day I log in there are shout groups for Rani, +2 mat bosses and other NM hunts. I know because I spent a week doing it for an empyrean weapon trial and witnessing others doing it as well. Fafnir and Co. should be just as easy when the update comes because it's going to be in a spotlight for everyone to see. The simple idea that you don't need to camp for king items anymore is like an electric can opener in a crazy old cat lady's house. We can also pretty much guarantee that no changes will be made to the monsters involved in the new system. Remember that these things were taken down by one or two parties of players at level 75 when merits and awesome gear were hard to find. These days top gear can be gotten by pick up groups and getting 20 merit points in a day is as simple as standing by a dominion sergeant NPC. In other words, pick up groups are going to destroy kings ( I would love to be proven wrong though)

can they kill the king? Sure. Can you go into KS99 with a bunch of people who you never met. Yep can they win with the right jobs? Of course! Are there going to be an endless flow of people with 99 KS for more than 2 days? Not likely. Are people going to whine that its to hard to get people after that. Why not.

Catsby

04-21-2011, 05:25 AM

Are there going to be an endless flow of people with 99 KS for more than 2 days? Not likely. Are people going to whine that its to hard to get people after that. Why not.

What are you basing this off of? I've seen shouts for KSNM even recently and I know people who do BCNMs for kraken club on almost a weekly basis. People stockpile massive amounts of seals from magian trials and that 1-30 pre abyssea grind. If it's the progression from KSNM battlefield to Kings you are worried there will probably be a DD-DD-Healer-Support paradigm thrown together a week after the update takes place to ensure that more than 6 people wont be needed to successfuly win but will be encouraged to knock out more orbs at a time.

Karbuncle

04-21-2011, 05:26 AM

I'll admit i didn't read every post, but i agree w/ the OP on the point that i don't think this is going to help anything. I cannot get 6 people together to do a KS 30 let alone 18 or so for KS 99. What i will say is that the 1 KS BS or KC in pool per pt is bullshit, i have a Screeny of 4 KC's in pool in an EXP alliance in abyssea - mis coast, if no one believes me. I took it with my camera because i can't figure out how to get the damn things off my pc. This was before, as you can see, they changed the look of the KC.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b153/Leaderoftheblackpack780/100_0933.jpg
Proof positive ^.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or I'm not reading you right on the first part but

KSNM30's/99's haven't needed 6-18 people since ... Ever.

Most KSNM99's could be done with 12 or less back at 75, now adays people have solo'd the Wyrm one. I solo'd KSNM30's on my PLD (lol ODS) back at 80. was possible at 75 IIRC.

But anyway sure as heck don't need 6-18 people, You could probably do most/all of them with ~5/6 or less.

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 05:35 AM

What are you basing this off of? I've seen shouts for KSNM even recently and I know people who do BCNMs for kraken club on almost a weekly basis. People stockpile massive amounts of seals from magian trials and that 1-30 pre abyssea grind. If it's the progression from KSNM battlefield to Kings you are worried there will probably be a DD-DD-Healer-Support paradigm thrown together a week after the update takes place to ensure that more than 6 people wont be needed to successfuly win but will be encouraged to knock out more orbs at a time.

Kings are a total joke to kill tbh the KS99's are harder than the NQ Kings and I would rate Wyrm as harder than even hogg. but you dont get KS from 1-30 or in abyssea magian trials while that results in some I am sure most even when stockpiling most will have maybe 5 chances at the NQ and if you look the way its shown is that the drops for the NQ from KS99 are 100% then below that it shows the drops that pop the HQ (hello PW from ZNM) (so assume its about a 20% average drop same as the spawning of it). So 5 shots maybe 1 chance on average for the HQ how long do you think that will last. Maybe on your server KS30 shouts are common I have not seen one on mine since the cap was 75 and a majority of my time is spent sitting in the shout areas watching for interesting things.

Inb4 400 people on FFXIAH posting (OMG MY POP ITEM WAS NINJAED DONT GO WITH THIS GUY)

Karbuncle

04-21-2011, 05:47 AM

So, You're angry cause you're making up numbers (I.e you're saying 20% pop for HQ) and complaining about it.

Got it.

really though, You have no idea what you're talking about. No one knows what the Drop-rate for HQ Kings will be. The update notes also specify that we may get more than 1 NQ pop per KSNM. SO maybe i'll make up some numbers too.

See, Lets base it off Dynamis! Mobs have a chance to drop multiple Currency! so the way i see it, Each KSNM will drop 1-4 Pop items from fafnir! And Since Joyeuse has ~99% drop rate, I think the HQ pop will too. So now each KSNM we have 4 chances at fafnir and 99.96 chance at 4 nidhoggs. This update is amazing.

...

Not so fun when you're getting imaginary numbers thrown at you in the form of an argument is it?

Basically what I'm saying is you should wait the update, the biggest problem is the Unknowns, We don't know how nerfed the BB item drop rate is, We dont know how many Pop items you can get per fight, We don't know if the're R(Sellable) or EX, we don't know a lot of things.

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 05:48 AM

So, You're angry cause you're making up numbers (I.e you're saying 20% pop for HQ) and complaining about it.

Got it.

really though, You have no idea what you're talking about. No one knows what the Drop-rate for HQ Kings will be. The update notes also specify that we may get more than 1 NQ pop per KSNM. SO maybe i'll make up some numbers too.

See, Lets base it off Dynamis! Mobs have a chance to drop multiple Currency! so the way i see it, Each KSNM will drop 1-4 Pop items from fafnir! And Since Joyeuse has ~99% drop rate, I think the HQ pop will too. So now each KSNM we have 4 chances at fafnir and 3.96% chance at nidhogg. This update is amazing.

...

Not so fun when you're getting imaginary numbers thrown at you in the form of an argument is it?

thats about what its spawn rate is currently if you want to go into drop rates based on previous popped HNM like VNM or PW drops we can say it will be 5-10% my numbers are based on previous experiences with their way of handling popped "HNM'"s not completely just lets throw this here and that there.

Karbuncle

04-21-2011, 05:50 AM

thats about what its spawn rate is currently if you want to go into drop rates based on previous popped HNM like VNM or PW drops we can say it will be 5-10%

Yah but they're too entirely different systems. they have no relation outside of "Forced pop" aspect.

If you wanna make a fair argument, why not base it on Abyssea Pop items? They all require farming of pop items, same as ZNM. Except their drop rate is pretty solid. I can kill the Buffalo NM 5 times and get 3-4 items for the tiger with TH6 on.

My point is its an Unknown, We can't judge a system based on Unknown information.

Dais

04-21-2011, 05:52 AM

I just want to extend my heartfelt thanks to the dev team for finally making this change. I was hoping for this to become a reality every single update a few years ago.
It may be a few years too late but I think the boting issue will finally be resolved. I have a few hundred kindred seals ready and waiting to help me make progress toward getting a defending ring at long last.

In regards to ninja lotting items: you could always just quartermaster your own orb.

Catsby

04-21-2011, 05:57 AM

arbitrary numbers for features that don't exist yet

You need to stop looking at this so subjectively. People get tons of Kindred seals doing their own stuff and things. Keep in mind that servers are merging soon so there will be plenty of new linkshells and pickup groups to participate with.

In your defense though you have plenty of reason to get upset prematurely. FFXI devs don't openly test their prototypes and when they do test something it's so unscientific that there's no surprise when the new content turns out to be a waste of time.

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 05:59 AM

Yah but they're too entirely different systems. they have no relation outside of "Forced pop" aspect.

If you wanna make a fair argument, why not base it on Abyssea Pop items? They all require farming of pop items, same as ZNM. Except their drop rate is pretty solid. I can kill the Buffalo NM 5 times and get 3-4 items for the tiger with TH6 on.

My point is its an Unknown, We can't judge a system based on Unknown information.

You can tend to base things around previous history of similar types. This applies to both real life and this game. VNM's still even in abyssea have a horrid upgrade rate and this was the last thing they introduced as an HNM addition (at least in the sense they stated "New HNM's") This is also based on their current workings of said system having a 4-8 day wait (put 20% as an average just to work with a half decent number so i dont have something like 29.44347%) I am allowed to have as objective a point as I wish rather than getting my hopes up. its better to use what you have rather than get all hopeful to be let down by yet another fail system that makes this game worse than it is previously.

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 06:01 AM

You need to stop looking at this so subjectively. People get tons of Kindred seals doing their own stuff and things. Keep in mind that servers are merging soon so there will be plenty of new linkshells and pickup groups to participate with.

In your defense though you have plenty of reason to get upset prematurely. FFXI devs don't openly test their prototypes and when they do test something it's so unscientific that there's no surprise when the new content turns out to be a waste of time.

My server was merged in the first wave and the population has already dropped to below what it was pre merger. ; ;

Manicora

04-21-2011, 06:11 AM

Not bragging:
Ks99 Wyrm 4-6 people x2 Blu/nin, x2rdm/nin 1blm(helps but not needed) 1 Tank(Monk thf War rng) all work Beat 4-10 min max unless you can not play your jobs well.
Ks99 Behemoth 2-6 ppl Rdm blm mix works very well more people = more dead mages 10 min unless you fail to live
Ks99 Hills are alive 6 ppl 1 tank helps but not needed. x2 blu/nin solo sc Drk x2 blm/whm x2 rdm/brd 5-10 min if u land MB
This is what i have done @ 90 with my friends: i'm am not the best of any job i have, but im good enough to know where I fail. So atm with 99 seals per person we would have 6 try's at any HNM. too easy to farm 100 KS infact they drop as much as most KC and HKC when i farm.

Catsby

04-21-2011, 06:14 AM

My server was merged in the first wave and the population has already dropped to below what it was pre merger. ; ;

do you have any way to validate this?

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 06:16 AM

do you have any way to validate this?

pre merger when you would do /sea all there would usually be about 1600-2000 on during peak times
post merger 3000ish
now 1200-1400 ocasionally 1600 if its the weekend

Karbuncle

04-21-2011, 06:21 AM

You can tend to base things around previous history of similar types. This applies to both real life and this game. VNM's still even in abyssea have a horrid upgrade rate and this was the last thing they introduced as an HNM addition (at least in the sense they stated "New HNM's") This is also based on their current workings of said system having a 4-8 day wait (put 20% as an average just to work with a half decent number so i dont have something like 29.44347%) I am allowed to have as objective a point as I wish rather than getting my hopes up. its better to use what you have rather than get all hopeful to be let down by yet another fail system that makes this game worse than it is previously.

You can use as many numbers as you want but it doesn't change the fact you're making baseless assumptions without Proof behind them as this is a completely unknown system.

you're not basing it off of "Similar types", you're basing it off a Completely different system as pessimistically as you can. Why don't you include the fact for your little ZNM argument that Every single ZNM before the 3-big ones have 100% upgrade rate? Or maybe as i said earlier, how most Heroes Abyssea NMs have a ~70% Chance to drop their (R) Pop item for the next tier NM.

The only thing ZNM and this new system have in common is they're both system where you do something, get something, and pop something. Which is basically a large chunk of FFXI. Plus, The ZNM system was designed by a different Dev team, Who's painfully broom-rape ways have lost since passed. We have every right to believe they might pull this off.

So I'll stick to this as my Final Answer: You're assumptions have no base, You're pulling numbers from the most negative aspects of Old events from old dev teams and using them as an excuse to hate an event you know nothing about outside of how to pop said NMs.

You really should just Wait for the update. It has the chance to surprise us. I don't think they handled it the best way, but i also think it shows some promise. the only thing holding it back is the current Unknowns.

Catsby

04-21-2011, 06:22 AM

pre merger when you would do /sea all there would usually be about 1600-2000 on during peak times
post merger 3000ish
now 1200-1400 ocasionally 1600 if its the weekend

So you don't have a way to validate it then. You just made up numbers again.

Mittenz

04-21-2011, 06:28 AM

So you don't have a way to validate it then. You just made up numbers again.

what was the date of the merger I am more than willing to go through pictures I took to see if I took any of how annoyingly crowded it was once the merger happened as for pre merger I never really saw a need to take a pic of /sea all but I will check anyway for your benefit and obviously I can take a pic of current times.

and Karbuncle its best to assume the worst and be impressed than assume the best and be disappointed

Karbuncle

04-21-2011, 06:32 AM

in 2005, I'd of agreed with you. But as of late the Dev team has really stepped up their game. I prefer a "Cautiously Optimistic" point of view, not "Maliciously pessimistic".

I just don't think you should judge the system so harshly before we know all the facts

Catsby

04-21-2011, 06:36 AM

I just don't think you should judge the system so harshly before we know all the facts

This to an extent. SE has been surprisingly progressive over the last 6 months but only in an effort to cover there collective ass. Fire and forget game development went out of style about half a decade ago and SE is only realizing it now.

Natenn

04-21-2011, 07:02 AM

They need to remove D ring from KB and put it on Vrtra so ppl would still have to be good to earn a D ring.

Randwolf

04-21-2011, 07:12 AM

They need to remove D ring from KB and put it on Vrtra so ppl would still have to be good to earn a D ring.
Not sure what you mean since the difficulty of the mob isn't changing. Just the amount of times it can be spawned. You aren't looking to create rarity of the ring by allowing for the same skill. You want to create rarity on the ring by increasing the difficulty and reducing the spawn opportunities. However, it does not change the skill level to attain it by allowing the mob to pop more often. It just makes it more available.

This clearly shines through as an attempt to protect e-peen because others getting it may make it less rare.

Natenn

04-21-2011, 07:26 AM

even if they boosted KBs lvl its still a joke.

Randwolf

04-21-2011, 07:37 AM

even if they boosted KBs lvl its still a joke.

Then, the answer is a harder, more challenging NM with a better drop. It doesn't make sense to have the same gear drop from harder mobs just because the old mob pops more often.

Darkovercast

04-21-2011, 07:49 AM

Since the release of Abyssea, Squares has been making the game easier for the shrinking population in the game. Making things easier to do with small groups and removing a lot of need for large linkshells.

This is the first step in the opposite direction, and it’s a horrible idea in my honest opinion.
I do feel that the long windows for these old monsters should be switched to a pop system. But pop items from the KSNM99? Are you serious? I agree that many older players most likely have enough seals to have many 99 runs, but these players are also ones who no longer gain anything from said runs more times than not. Also lowering the drop rate to make monks seeking their black belts suffers more, backwards thinking I feel when we are seeing monk become the new trending job for abyssea.
I feel this is a slap in the face for the player group of the community, square does not understand the needs and wants of their paying players on this subject. This plan should not happen, at least not without tweaking. The pop item should not drop from KSNM99’s and monks should not fear even lower drop rates. Players are sick of working so hard to see nothing drop most of the time!

ShadowHeart

04-21-2011, 07:53 AM

Randwolf

04-21-2011, 08:07 AM

I feel this is a slap in the face for the player group of the community, square does not understand the needs and wants of their paying players on this subject.
As a long-time player, I am going to disagree with you. Although many long-time players want to see things more accessible, they aren't looking for everything to be a low-man or solo event. Some of the frustrations you voice are, and still continue to be, ones I have. But, from the beginning, and as S/E has continually stated, the game is supposed to primarily be a 'party' game not a solo game. The changes we have seen recently have been made for those who wanted solo/low-man events. But, those aren't the only people who pay a monthly fee. One group cannot get their way every time.

So, as a paying player, I am going to say that they do understand their players. They just don't make all of us happy at the same time.

Vold

04-21-2011, 08:35 AM

they should just work on the kindred crest and high kindred crestNM fights and drops and not worry about the current ones what a waste of time and resouces on something not worth peoples time really is BB gonna be worth that much effort at 95 or 99 still? other then noveltyThe belt was crazy good at 70. Hell, if it were released now instead of way back then it'd be pretty damn impressive. Now we're pretty used to it but just think about it... str 7 haste 12 SB 5 and PDT 5. Dare I say nothing in Abyssea even compares. Certainly not waist items, and I suppose the only items that impress me as much as this belt are Shinryu drops. So, yeah. BB is worth any amount of effort.

Trollinthedungeon

04-21-2011, 08:36 AM

Randwolf

04-21-2011, 09:09 AM

Well it's a good thing I played the game before abyssea. Leveling the old way and obtaining KSNMs while exping. I guess you suckers out there that complain about not having Kindred seal's just have to watch us pop them in front of you, while you hold yourselfs and cry. Not our fault or SE's you took the easy route and burned through levels without actually understanding how to play the game. It also isn't anyones or SEs fault, that you decided to spend all your KS or Orbs on 20k Ingot runs.

Welcome to the thunderdome.
What I have found interesting is that there were some, not all, of these same people that said they simply wanted a shot at the HNM's. That the claim system was unfair and not based on player skill. But, on luck and 3rd party tools. Now, they have the chance, through some effort, to fight these HNM's. And, the crying continues. What I'm guessing is that these same people who are crying were not just after the chance to fight an HNM but to have it practically handed to them. Of course, if they said that, they would have revealed their true agenda and received little support. As a former HNMLS member who thought the claim system and long time between pops was bad, I am truly enjoying the whining by those whose real intention was not just to fight the HNM but to practically have it pop in their MH on the hour.

Tsuneo

04-21-2011, 10:12 AM

Annoying troll is annoying.

Anewie

04-21-2011, 10:14 AM

Theyll always complain and SE needs to stop trying to cater to them. They got what they wanted and they still aren't happy. Freakin go play WoW.

I am NOT enjoying the whining. I find it annoying. The company is practically bending to their every nick and cranny and theyre still complaining. Remember when odin came out cause ppl were complaining about bots? They cried. Ok so they gimped down odin and einherjar, and people still complained.

FFXI shouldn't bend to botters but it shouldn't bend to people who don't care about anything and just want stuff handed to them. Play the game and enjoy it and stop crying about what you don't have. You don't have the time, you have cancer, you have kids, so does everyone else. It's a game. It's okay to suggest what you would like and campaigne for it, but stop the whining. You know what I'm gonna do if the game doesn't offer something interesting to me or I can't/don't want to do something? I'll quit and GO DO something else. Do I like the way the player base has de-evolved and now you can't tell the difference between an afker and a avesta/kirchy/cream soda type player? hell no buti find fun in the things i have time for and I don't step on people toes and I don't cry about stuff i can't do. I work around it because SE HAS impmented alternate methods to obtaining gear that is doable by people who can't and don't want to do as much.

And just an fyi, I am considering quitting because I just simply can't find fun in the game like i used too. I am not gonna start crying saying oh booo SE made the game boring and more casual and now there too many noobs wahhh. No.. The noobs deserved a chance to shine tbh and people have been tolerate but its gonna be the end of the game if SE doesn't stop catering to people who do not care about the game.

Tsuneo

04-21-2011, 10:16 AM

People should really stop talking about botting it's ridiculous why don't you go back to 2005.

Anewie

04-21-2011, 10:20 AM

Inorite. The only things that were botted mainstreamly werte those retarded three kings. Why would you put rare mobs hat drop the best gear in a tiny corner like that? You can say people botted cerb,khim,tia but lol. But yeah, that didn't happen often. More like, it was more a race or having a hold party ready. DI/SW were unbottable. Did people use windower/spot type program? yes, but those people LOST against shells that actually paid attention to scanning. Botting really wasnt a big issue outside kings, which are now gone and have been obselete for a long time.

Xlide

04-21-2011, 10:24 AM

Couldn't agree more with OP. Square-Enix has been taking so many steps forward for this game as of late. This is a HUGE step back. This is something the old development team would've done. By making us do farm 99KS, do KS99, kill NQ, and then finally kill HQ, you are wasting the players time. I personally do not want something wasting my time.

Why not lower respawn to 12 hours? And have no 3 hour, illogical window. Lower drop rates if you think that Kings drops are so still so so precious.

But just a heads up, they aren't. Ridill is not worth the time. The only drop worth it on Kings is the defending ring.

ShadowHeart

04-21-2011, 10:28 AM

its pretty bad that monk (abyssea's sudden fad job) is the one getting messed with... never mind the poor pld who almost no one uses anymore because not enough proc's can't kill fast enough or whatever reasons u want to use but bunch people get on a kick about monk because of abyssea and have to destroy a fun tradition that goes back to this games origins camping NM's and HNM's..... if things aren't easy enough now for people they could just increase the drop or spawn rate or add mobs that drop the items but myself i been playing for years now and love the camps the adrenaline rush of getting the claim even if u didn't get the drop the hours of boredom which made you interact with ur fellow players and actually make friends and bonded linkshells and friendships helping each other. Now... goto 90 in a week no ls grab a cruor burn go brew an nm pause it on npc, martello or whatever and brew hold so u can get all ur +1 / +2 gear and make like u been playing for years... there are still some of us out here who party outside abyssea camp nm's and just enjoy the community / linkshells and friendships.

Starcade

04-21-2011, 10:30 AM

People should really stop talking about botting it's ridiculous why don't you go back to 2005.

Should I add the rest of your post??

The point that stopping talking about it just continues to enable it, so why not us just shut up about it?

Xlide

04-21-2011, 10:33 AM

Square-Enix. As a 6 year costumer, here is a suggestion. Make a poll.

Have 3 options:

1) I agree with the HNM changes
2) I do not agree with the HNM changes.
2) I want the HNM system to change, but not like this. Please form a new method.

The forums were meant to get feedback from the players, right? So please try to get more feedback before you make such a drastic change.

Tsuneo

04-21-2011, 10:44 AM

Should I add the rest of your post??

The point that stopping talking about it just continues to enable it, so why not us just shut up about it?

You must have been living under a rock since Abyssea came out. I don't even know what botting people are complaining about anymore. You people keep talking about it but it hasn't happened for quite awhile now. Sure individual people might still do it, but it's not on the massive scale it was before. The topic of botting isn't relevant to this update because no one cares enough anymore to bot them.

ShadowHeart

04-21-2011, 10:54 AM

most of us can go up and still see tiamat walking around or old Jorg or even cerebus.... the only reason behemoth nihdogg and the turtle are camped right now is the huge kick for monks because of abyssea.... lol i remember fighting 20 others for marlboro cave spawns it was a rush now summon carbie fill ur inventory with crap stand ur buddy at entrance and goto bed... carbi kills it when it agro's u and buddy gets his drop and all done :( pathetic but unfortunately true... seen it done

once 95 gear comes out and a new fad job comes out these will be the camped NM of the day but really once this fad is over those of us who just like to run out and kill an nm or HNM fun cause its there like arthro or serket just because its about and reminisce you can't u will have to make a whole alliance party collect 99 seals ... then i going to have to farm more seals to pop the dynmis nm's LOL

Randwolf

04-21-2011, 11:11 AM

You must have been living under a rock since Abyssea came out. I don't even know what botting people are complaining about anymore. You people keep talking about it but it hasn't happened for quite awhile now. Sure individual people might still do it, but it's not on the massive scale it was before. The topic of botting isn't relevant to this update because no one cares enough anymore to bot them.
You are most likely correct in this case. I think some of the fear surrounds S/E introducing new HNM's that drop superior gear and are claimed under the old method. As a former HNMLS member, I certainly see the botters returning if the old HNM spawn system returns and that is what drops some of the best gear in the game. Because making that claim would both better equip your members as well as making huge bank on sales to buyers.

As far as popping the old Kings, the more I think about this system, the more I like it. Primarily because the biggest complaints were the long windows between spawns and the claim system. So, S/E has said "Okay, you get to fight these without having to worry about others cheating to make the claim. And we won't make you stand around in a single zone once every 21 hours. But, we also are not going to make it so you walk into a zone, kill a few mobs, pop the HNM, and then repeat it until you get the drop. There will be some effort on your part."

And, there are very few drops from the Kings that are really worth very much anymore. Perhaps Black Belt and Defending Ring? Add to that the fact S/E has mentioned an item akin to the BB being introduced and the BB may very well drop off that list. So, quite honestly, if you only wanted the experience of fighting these NM's, then it would be a one time trip through this system.

The more responses I see to this, the more apparent it is that there is a group that you can't please unless the game is as easy as playing Solitaire. Truly, those people need to grab some sack and realize that while they will get some concessions, this game will not turn into an all-nighter and you're done like single player RPG's.

Susake

04-21-2011, 11:50 AM

This is stupid. I can almost guarantee that 2 months from now Fafnir and the other kings will only be popping once a week because no one will have KS anymore.

Randwolf

04-21-2011, 11:58 AM

This is stupid. I can almost guarantee that 2 months from now Fafnir and the other kings will only be popping once a week because no one will have KS anymore.
It won't be from lack of KS. It would be from lack of interest. I remember many Desert Storm runs because people cared enough to go out and farm seals. Two groups of people will be popping the Kings: Groups of people who want the drops and Groups of people who have buyers and want to sell the drops.

If people are smart and belong to one of the above groups, they will start farming seals now.

Karbuncle

04-21-2011, 12:09 PM

This is stupid. I can almost guarantee that 2 months from now Fafnir and the other kings will only be popping once a week because no one will have KS anymore.

Its just as likely they won't be popped due to people already having the items they need/Lost Interest, as it is they won't pop for not having any Kindred Seals.

Catsby

04-21-2011, 01:30 PM

This is stupid. I can almost guarantee that 2 months from now Fafnir and the other kings will only be popping once a week because no one will have KS anymore.

If their loot pools aren't updated then chances are nobody will care once they get their defending rings or whatever it is they think they need. If they are updated people will be grinding seals like mad and by the 2 month mark we should be seeing update previews again. On a side note kings and other NMs already wander around for hours sometimes days before people take them out.

PoaSign

04-21-2011, 07:28 PM

While a... glance? in the right direction, I really can't find myself agreeing with this new solution. While its true that people who felt had a 0% chance at getting DRing or BB before now at least have something they can do to obtain said item, I still think the bigger issue is Time/Effort =/= Possible Reward.

More importantly, and this is what I noticed most people have overlooked. It was mentioned a while ago, but no one seemed to either care, or take note:

How to obtain the trigger items:

Fafnir: Treasure from “Early Bird Catches the Wyrm”
Behemoth: Treasure from “Horns of War”
Adamantoise: Treasure from “The Hills are Alive”
* At least one of these items will be dropped in every battle.

Nidhogg: Treasure dropped by Fafnir
King Behemoth: Treasure dropped by Behemoth
Aspidochelone: Treasure dropped by Adamantoise

The pop item for the HQ versions are not 100%. This is currently, the biggest flaw, and my biggest gripe. If SE wants us to spend 8~10hrs solo grinding KS, just to watch NQ King quite possibly NOT drop his HQ pop item, then they have another thing coming. Considering they've removed the rewards from the KSNM, and lowered the drop chance on the HQ version, then seriously, what the friggin' hell?

I completely understand the need for "grinding" things out. Afterall, this game is an MMO, and being a rather old game, not to mention an Eastern game, its littered with time-sinks and grind-fests. But seriously, that last bit is just a slap in the face. If I'm about to invest 8~10hrs to farming 99KS, and hopefully not bashing my face against my desk before that, then I think its only fair that I'm rewarded with the knowledge that I'm at least going to see KB, or Aspid, or Nidhogg, even with the reduced drop rate. But according to what I'm reading, that isn't the case.

I really hope I'm wrong. But until then, there's just no way that the amount of time and energy it even takes to possibly get a King to pop, is worth it. While it may have lacked the... dedication, or challenge (to some folks), keeping track of ToD and when a King popped last was MUCH easier than the amount of work we'll have to put in now. Not to mention that the old system gave you a lot more time to do other things outside of its ToD, to further progress your character in a variety of different ways.

I'm not a total advocate for the old way, although it does bring back some bittersweet memories of my old HNM LS days, I actually do think having a pop system can work. I just think the balance between this new way, and the old way, is completely off. It's not even close.

darkShirou

04-21-2011, 08:23 PM

They didn't even bother confirming whether or not BB items will still drop from the KS99's, which I can only assume that they no longer will in this new, HNM-LS only solution. Thanks again SE for chasing more players away from the game, it's no wonder you have to keep resorting to server merges with these dumb ideas you come up with that you never ask your players if it's something they want.

Arcon

04-21-2011, 09:51 PM

They didn't even bother confirming whether or not BB items will still drop from the KS99's, which I can only assume that they no longer will in this new, HNM-LS only solution.

You can assume the opposite as well, which you should. They only mention adjustments, if it's not mentioned it probably won't be adjusted. Also, nothing about this is HNMLS only. KS99 can be done (and have always be done) by normal LS, even shout parties, with success.

ShadowHeart

04-21-2011, 10:51 PM

maybe they are changing the drops in the ksnm 99 and the nihdogg drop items cause its too hard to make new NM's and no place to put them ... re-skin cheat lol
it was only broke for the monks who wanted their BB NOW for abyssea!!! lol
if they just left it alone until new areas outside abyssea came out monk would become negligent again ... i remember countless people not leveling monk because no one wanted them until they were 60+ but we know how trend jobs go ask all the sams out there or back in the day when drg was insane...

Shymithra

04-22-2011, 07:52 AM

I'm so glad I'm not the only one that thought was a really bad idea. To make us farm KS which have a crappy drop rate to do a KSNM which you need to gather people which is not a easy task to to get a pop for a mob you can solo is just plan wrong its like a taking 30 steps backwards I don't know what they were thinking with this update. if anything they should have made the NQs pop more often and gave them a low drop rate on pop for the HQ HNM and kept item drop rate the same as it is now. or just leave it as it is just don't make it 3 times the effort for no reward.

Catsby

04-22-2011, 07:53 AM

Wenceslao

04-24-2011, 05:59 AM

I think making this NM pop with an items is not as bad as it may looks, the problem i see is that many are complaining on the seals used, why not ask SE to change the KSNM99 to a new one method, I'm sure many if not all players are storing lots and lots of Kindred Crest an H.Kindred Crest, using this to teh BCNM to get the pop item would be better and this way we solve the problem on seals, I know many players still goes for beastmen and kindred seals farm but if the problem is that this drops are shared with other two that drops more often why not give it a use?

Sovereign

04-24-2011, 11:14 AM

They didn't even bother confirming whether or not BB items will still drop from the KS99's, which I can only assume that they no longer will in this new, HNM-LS only solution.

Wow, you guys really dont know how to read, do you?

It's blatantly stated by a dev in a different thread that KS99 BCs will continue to drop BB items. You can find the exact post by using the dev tracker, or you can be lazy and copy/paste this link

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5782-Dev-1009-Force-Pop-HNM-s-FTW?p=80514#post80514

Natenn

04-24-2011, 12:52 PM

Abelia

04-25-2011, 01:21 AM

Did anyone notice that the never said that Fafnir/Adamantoise/Behemoth will drop Nidhogg/Aspidochelone/King Behemoth items 100%. That could further extend the amount of time this will take.

Tamarsamar

04-25-2011, 01:56 AM

i don't care to much about ppl killing kings but why should they make D ring easier to get after alot of ppl put in so much time and didication to get one?

Let's see, roughly seven years of being in the game, times 32 servers at an average of five rings a year if you're lucky (minus, of course, five times the eight servers that were deactivated over the past year) . . . yeah, I'm sure those 1080 at most people across all servers would be oh so offended! I'm sure that they are probably just as offended at that as the 100 or so people who got their rings from the Mog Bonanza!

Seriously, dude. Get over yourself.

Rambus

04-25-2011, 03:24 AM

hmm nice to know people do find problems with this "update"

I think this makes egg above everything else much harder to get then current methods. making dring easier to get is needed though, this update will do that. I do not understand making BB items harder to get though, esp egg.

Natenn

04-25-2011, 05:03 AM

5 a year is the best case scenario, lucky if more then 2 drop per server per year. You might be for the everyone gets the best of everything w/o really fighting for it but im not. Anything common isn't worth having most of the time. Use to be if you wanted something prestigious like relics/D rings/things like that, you would have to bust your ass to get one and hope you get lucky on top of that. Now lazy ppl get this stuff with ease. Im against getting stuff w/o effort.

Randwolf

04-27-2011, 05:02 AM

i don't care to much about ppl killing kings but why should they make D ring easier to get after alot of ppl put in so much time and didication to get one? If they removed it from KB and put it like Tia or someting, LW maby id not be so irritated, but i killed KB in 4m with THF SAM BLU RDM RDM & NIN with only 2 meteors goin off.its so ez to kill now. Now it'll be popped like 50x a week and there will be teal or full perle ppl running around with a D ring, quite the slap in my face.
Get over it. Ask all the Thieves that camped the Thief Knife for days and days on end. Then, poof, you can now pop the mob and get the item easily. Or, simply pick one up on the AH for an incredibly low price.

I'm sorry the game didn't stand still for you to continue to feel 1337 for accomplishments past. You can get with the program and keep moving forward. Or, just as in real life, you can do nothing new and look like you stepped out of time machine. Ever seen someone with one of the original cell phones? They paid incredible of amounts of money for it back then. Now, it's worth nothing. Basing your worth on items will always be a losing proposition.

Natenn

04-27-2011, 06:49 AM

Denabond

04-27-2011, 11:33 AM

For 1 there is no real accomplishments anymore, the l33t drops/titles mean zilch now. Hopefully the new content puts and end to all the abyssea gloating crap. I saw a group yesterday use 3 Brew on 1 glavoid, unacceptable. No more easy outs to avoid wipes/losing claim, yes please.
Well Voidwatch will be outside of abyssea, so no more Brew safety net for people who suck now. Now its up to SE to have them be timed NMs or pop NMs is something else entirely.

Semco

04-28-2011, 06:09 AM

They say Abyssea saved the game and it did. I for one will be glad to see Abyssea and its ease be some what lessened in this game. I for one loved the challenge this game once presented, Abysseea took that away from players who love challenge. I for one am hoping that changes like this are what we can expect in the future, SOME DIFFICULTY!!!!

Xellith

04-28-2011, 03:08 PM

I like being able to schedule NMs around my life rather than my life around the NMs. I also like being able to actually be able to take my LS to do those NMs instead of just no-lifers being able to attend and get the shinys.

This imo is a good change since there are going to be a lot more pops on the servers now. That 3 hours spent waiting to POSSIBLY get a pop can be spent ACTUALLY working on getting a pop.

Natenn

04-28-2011, 10:23 PM

Anewie

04-28-2011, 11:33 PM

But there in lies the problem, whats supposed to make MMO unique is diversity. If eveyone has and does the exact same thing then whats the point in playing? If you want the best gear you should have to pay the price, if you think a 21-24hr pop is omgitssohardtoclaim then you don't camp em. I would get a King pop maby 3-6x a month before when there would always be 100 or more at camp. I think ppl only cry bots to try and justify themselfs in complaing about how they weren't good enough to claim, same goes for calling ppl no lifers. These are are ignorant ppl that go nuts every time they lost a claim and spout off nonsense like "omg bots bots bots they have no life QQQQQQQQQ", we all know several ppl like this and we all know not everyone bots. SE said before they wanted to give us "Choices", my choice is to camp and duke it out for the best gear cause i enjoy doing it. If you dont wanna do that then go to w/e alternative there is for end game equip.

I agree with you mostly cause I know you in game and understand what you're saying.

I do think that the best gear should be available only through the most legit way. This way should take time, effort, kill and focus. The thing I love about camping is, it's not easy. It requires me to focus and I kinda enjoy the rush of it. The unknown and luck aspect of it is fun to me but if the drops suck and arent worth anything, ill admit I wouldnt try.

Looking at this from a point of a view of a person who doesn't enjoy camping. I'd think I'd love einherjar. How many of you anti CAMPERS (not anti HNM) but those of you who don't enjoy camping monsters, actually enjoy einherjar? Do you think that's fair? Einher to me is a lot of fun! You can't rush to odin either so this event is the -perfect- event to me that establishes itself as both casual and elite. Its a perfect mix. It's casual in that it only takes 30minutes to do (not counting gather/organize time) and you have to actually focus and be good. (speaking back at 75.. lol) You couldn't just take a bunch of leeched/afk type ppl who want drops handed to them and go straight to odin with 3/3 or 9/9 wins. TYhat's not how it worked, but it was so time friendly and NOT consuming, the only excuse people had for not getting king drops from einherjar was, the group wasn't skilled enough. This event needs to return in some way or get a buff. This is where the BEST drops should be.

The whole 1-7 type spawns (varying from DI to Tiamat etc), those are fun. FFXI should bring back rare NMs. Natenn made a good point earlier in that, where is the accomplishment in defeating NMs now? It was such a huge part of ffxi before, even if you didn't get drop. Those mobs have titles and are called NOTORIOUS monsters. Rare monsters should drop rare gear and FFXI should have rare monsters. It always has and since the cap incease they should invent new ones. These NMs should represent some value to killing/hunting them because they are such a rare sight, killing them should be the reward but to just invent a rare HNM/NM that drops nothing, that kinda lames it out. It's like "oh look! Its a one week spawn NM! Sure looks neat, wanna kill it? Nah cause it doesn't drop anything worthwhile.". It has to have some rare reward that justifies its rarity but also gives people who find it, some prize for killing/finding.

These same prizes should be available through other means because it is simply unfair to make a rare/elite/amazing item exclusive to something that requires so much time and LUCK, to people who don't enjoy playing around camps. Those people don't like luck because their time to devote to game is so minimal compared to the spawn time, luck playing a part in their success would mean little to no success and they are paying customers too.

However, like i said before, this ks99 fix is in there with einherjar in my honest opinion. This is NOT hard. Black belt is a flawless and stunning item and it should be rare. It should only be avilable via LUCK (HNM/NM spawns) or time/devotion/skill. You can farm kS99 on YOUR OWN TIME. Yes, it's time consuming but it's worth the itemand you can construct your game time around farming for ks99s. You can enter KS99 whenever you want and you have to focus to defeat ithe bcnm and the HNM.

I applaud SE for this fix. People didn't want to have to rely on camping kings for BB. Okay, so they added BB items to ks99, and now theyve made kings force pop. The means to obtain this item are more than reasonable and if you are not happy after all these fixes to accomdate your playtime/effort, you simply do NOT deserve the best gear in ffxi over someone who is willing to do it, camps/luck or no camps/luck.