Add a clear time leaderboard to Ambuscade

[Pixela]

Add a leaderboard to the Ambuscade NPC, that lists the top 5 groups that cleared Ambuscade that month.

Add all players names in each group and their job.

Speed running has a dedicated following, why not add it to a FFXI event?

[Sirmarki]

Pointless really when you factor in multi-box and.... other...

Just like people who clear the AMAN trove in 16 seconds or
Leviathan in 40 seconds something (how is that even possible?).

[Alhanelem]

The main issue with the clear time records that already exist is they're wiped on server maintenance. Why the server can't just record this crap in a text file or something is beyond me butit is what it is.

[Pixela]

Pointless really when you factor in multi-box and.... other...

Just like people who clear the AMAN trove in 16 seconds or
Leviathan in 40 seconds something (how is that even possible?).

Multibox is always going to be worse than real players with similar gear.

[Pixela]

The main issue with the clear time records that already exist is they're wiped on server maintenance. Why the server can't just record this crap in a text file or something is beyond me butit is what it is.

This doesn't matter since the ambuscade changes every month.

The main appeal is prestige. They may have to omit certain job combinations though.

[Sirmarki]

Multibox is always going to be worse than real players with similar gear.

I have seen evidence to say that isn't always the case.
It is also the reason why I stated "and other".... Meaning methods that are against ToS.

[Alhanelem]

This doesn't matter since the ambuscade changes every month.

The main appeal is prestige. They may have to omit certain job combinations though.
Why? If the point is to find out the fastest way to beat something nothing should be excluded.

[Zehira]

I remember I used to be the number one on Crimson Skies' leaderboard years ago. It was pointless because nothing was rewarding. As for FFXI, cheaters always will win.


Multibox is always going to be worse than real players with similar gear.

Multibox isn't always that cheating. It is kind of challenging especially lone wolves. It can cost you billions billions of gil to get the best gear as possible.

[Pixela]

I have seen evidence to say that isn't always the case.
It is also the reason why I stated "and other".... Meaning methods that are against ToS.

All a multiboxer does is superbuff one main damage dealer.

A good and well prepared and well geared multiboxer is better than most average players with sub-par gear but a well geared group of players will always beat a multiboxer. A multiboxer excels at fights where nothing goes wrong, when something out of the ordinary happens they usually fail pretty quick.

The thing with leaderboards of meaningful content is a certain kind of player will find this very addictive, i played an old game for many years purely to compete in the monthly time attack clears. You do have to have an actual leaderboard, with player names and jobs though.

[Sirmarki]

A multiboxer excels at fights where nothing goes wrong, when something out of the ordinary happens they usually fail pretty quick.

Other than the fact some have even beaten the trove mimic chest monster that spawns and showed them doing so on YouTube?
Also, can you beat 16 seconds on AMAN Trove clear?

[Alhanelem]

Other than the fact some have even beaten the trove mimic chest monster that spawns and showed them doing so on YouTube?
Also, can you beat 16 seconds on AMAN Trove clear?
That about sounds like the time it takes to flee to the chest from the entrance, so probably not.

[Pixela]

Other than the fact some have even beaten the trove mimic chest monster that spawns and showed them doing so on YouTube?
Also, can you beat 16 seconds on AMAN Trove clear?

A multiboxer works best when there is nothing happening out of the ordinary, they put massive buffs on a tricked out damage job and overpower the enemy before it can kill them (also the person you're talking about has best in slot for every one of his alts, his characters are all overpowered already). A youtube video is a best case scenario, they don't show you the 20 failures or the 10 unimpressive clears, they show the best.

I've multiboxed, not only am I terrible at it (most people are fairly poor at it and can't solo multibox VDv1 etc, you're watching an "elite" player at the top of his game, showing his best videos) but the moment something unexpected happens it all totally falls apart anyway (yes even for him). What if the tank dies, you think the multibox rdm is going to be able to kite the enemies around, or throw out chainspell bind / grav / raise / cure / superbuff etc or whatever else? no they just wipe and start again because they can't react to unforeseen circumstances. Most of these alts react in a very scripted manner, they are worse than trusts (but far better geared).

Multiboxing is one of two things: it's either someone doing the equivalent of patting their head and rubbing their stomach at the same time (which is confusing, has delays and is stressful) or it's "scripted actions" on 5/6 of the characters and the 6th is the one they actually play and it's superman with all the buffs. Neither of these are anywhere near as good as 5-6 well geared players all playing one character each.

[Jerbob]

The vast majority of multiboxers are people who've already decided the rules don't apply to them. What else are they up to that puts them head and shoulders above the rest?

For as long as the rules aren't enforced in FFXI, any leaderboards are just going to be a roughly ordered list of players using the most (or most egregious) third party tools. I'm not against the leaderboard idea per se - it'd probably be fun! - but we need to accept what it'll become if SE aren't willing to enforce rules at the same time.

[Pixela]

Multiboxing isn't against the rules, it just means having multiple accounts. You can play legit and multibox.

[Alhanelem]

The vast majority of multiboxers are people who've already decided the rules don't apply to them. What else are they up to that puts them head and shoulders above the rest?

For as long as the rules aren't enforced in FFXI, any leaderboards are just going to be a roughly ordered list of players using the most (or most egregious) third party tools. I'm not against the leaderboard idea per se - it'd probably be fun! - but we need to accept what it'll become if SE aren't willing to enforce rules at the same time.
I don't really have the same dim vision of these people. The way I see it, multiboxers are people wh o just got tired of other people being unreliable and would prefer to do everything themselves to the maximum extent possible. Most of the people I know who do it, only use tools to facilitate controlling multiple characters with a single set of inputs. They're not like speedhacking or teleporting or doing anything else that's egregiously cheat-y.. And even with help it takes a certain degree of skill to manage an entire party of not-trusts by yourself.

Maybe the ones I know about are better people than most. I don't know, but I don't see all multiboxers as people bent on breaking rules.

[Sirmarki]

Multiboxing isn't against the rules, it just means having multiple accounts. You can play legit and multibox.


Most of the people I know who do it, only use tools to facilitate controlling multiple characters with a single set of inputs.

"2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay."

So, Pixela, that isn't against the rules?

[Pixela]

You are ignorant about multi-boxing and are generalizing everyone based on some youtuber, no it's not against the rules.

What you posted is not required to multi-box. All you need to multi-box is alt tab. Many people don't even do that, and just have multiple computers and keyboards / controllers.

I had two desktops and a laptop personally.

Not my image but it shows how some do it, this guy is well above my pay grade though.

https://i.imgur.com/tYrNveR.jpg

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2017-02-03/japanese-video-rental-store-owner-has-truly-insane-gaming-setup/.111697


Now that the PS2 service for Final Fantasy XI has ended, Kagura has moved on... to PC, and he still has a staggering amount of electronics in his room.


As you can see, he's since upgraded his TVs and has added Dragon Quest X and Final Fantasy XIV and XV to his itinerary (he's a really big fan of these series). He says buying ten PCs to play FFXI would be "tough"... so he's bought seven instead. He also has three Dragon Quest accounts and two FFXIV accounts, so he's still playing a total of 12 different accounts. He says it's "advantageous" to play online games with multiple accounts and was already thinking of creating a second account when playing FFXI's beta test.

[Zehira]

That's too many. lol

I think all the rules are up to SE to decide whether to punish offenders while interacting with the community. Even they knew you have broken the rules they chose not to talk about it and so shall you choose not to talk about it yourself either. Since this game was made to run the PS2 you can't stop players from using any third party tool. Yes, third party tools provide better QoL features but you can't blame other (such as bots) because all the third party tools breaking the rules equally.

Some people are lazy and impatient, they do it anyway before they head out for work or go to sleep then come back to their screens to see how they are doing. We are grown up people we have our time limited (wife/husband aggro). So as long as they do in an appropriate way and not exploiting other players, I don't see what is the problem with that.

Could be why people prefer to avoid this official forum and post somewhere else they think is safe.

[Pixela]

4-5 years ago there was a mass banning mentality on here, almost everyone I know that uses forums to talk about FFXI was banned and so can't post here at all.

Similar thing happened on the ff14 forums I was told but to a lesser degree, ffxi players are older and so less used to feefee pandering.

[Zehira]

4-5 years ago there was a mass banning mentality on here, almost everyone I know that uses forums to talk about FFXI was banned and so can't post here at all.

Similar thing happened on the ff14 forums I was told but to a lesser degree, ffxi players are older and so less used to feefee pandering.

Well, I lost my account to a RMT hacker more than 10 years ago. Even if I say it there would be a "you lost it your totally fault" mentality.

[Sirmarki]

You are ignorant about multi-boxing

https://i.imgur.com/tYrNveR.jpg

Your example is as far fetched as far fetched can get, so much so that it is comical because how many people playing FFXI are doing what you have tried to illustrate in that picture?
You've searched the most craziest/extreme image online and posted it.

You're telling me that people are alt-tabbing between screens to play (even though you can only run one instance legitimately and I doubt they are running 5 VM's)...
They are controlling numerous characters with spot on reactions by alt-tabbing through 6 different screens?

Please.....

[Divinas]

/facedesks at posts

[Pixela]

Your point was that everyone multiboxing is cheating, this is untrue. The more characters someone has the more likely they are doing something iffy but most people with alts are just playing normal as you are.

I myself had 2 desktops and a laptop to control 3 characters and I had macros to follow my main, I controlled them all myself.

You see some youtuber that automates this and can clear VD content and you think everyone can do that. I'm pointing out that many people who multibox a) aren't clearing VD content and are multiboxing easy or normal and b) are not doing what you think they are. Yes people cycle through characters with alt tab (which is in vanilla) and people use multiple computers. You have it in your head that everyone that you see with characters on follow is a a cyberpunk hacker and I'm trying to educate you that most people are not like that at all, they just like having multiple characters.

Stop generalizing everyone because you're mad about a youtuber. Most people who multipbox cannot do what he does, they are not clearing VD instances.

Your initial point was that multboxers are gods and I'm pointing out that no, we have delays while we cycle (I've died many times because I could not heal fast enough for instance) and we are multi tasking so play worse than a single player controlling one character. We know that but we enjoy being more busy and having multiple characters to gear and use. You think because one youtuber does amazing things and automated things everyone does that, this is not true.

[Divinas]

Your point was that everyone multi boxing is cheating, this is untrue.

While for once I agree with this, many MMOs now condemn Multi boxing when the use of scripts, softward automating the work is involved. FFXI is too old in it's current state to take proper measures (Which is one of many reason I'd like a modernization of XI). But that doesn't change that most who build Windower or Ashita assisted scripts, which is "NUMEROUS", especially on Asura. Making them legit.

It's oblivious when you see a box and all commends responds being simultaneous. That is clear cheating. God-like or not doesn't matter in this particular case, nor even does the OP, suggesting a clear time for Ambuscade. I don't think it's necessary but I am not against it. I just don't see how it will affect anything, overall.

[Pixela]

FFXI has fairly slow combat, ironically this makes it a very profitable subscription MMO because so many people can and do multibox (multibolxing is far more diffiult on other games are does require a lot more "help", this is not the case on FFXI). If they did take action on multiboxing (which is not against the rules) they would lose possibly 1/4 of the monthly subs.

The age of the engine is kind of irrelevant anyway though, there are plenty of multiboxers on ffxiv too, and all the things you complain about are on there too.

Back in the day I would use 2 characters in group content like Dynamis or HNM, I didn't even know how to use all these tools some are complaining about. I had my main and I had my alt from my laptop with a controller on my lap, when I needed to use my other character I would move my hands off my keyboard and pick up the controller to fire off the macro, then drop the controller and put my hands on the keyboard again. It's that easy.

[Jerbob]

I never said that multiboxing is cheating. I said that the vast majority of people who multibox are cheating. There's a fine difference, but I think that it's a very important one.

My response on the previous page was intended to clarify the position that, while multiboxing isn't technically likely to affect the results of a leaderboard system, the vast majority of people multiboxing are doing so using tools that also vastly improve their performance in other ways. That will affect the results of a leaderboard system. The two issues are distinct, but not as distinct as some people in this thread seem to be suggesting.

I don't doubt that some people multibox legitimately - virtual machines, software like Wine, literal multiple boxes. I tried it a few times and honestly it was a nightmare. I'm sure some people find it easier, and perhaps this game is a good candidate for legitimate multiboxing for various reasons, but let's not pretend that the majority of people are doing that. Most of them are using something to make the process easier for them. I've explained before how tool usage messes up the game for everyone else, and I won't do it again, but it's sufficient to say that for any given multiboxer the question you've got to ask is not if a moral or ToS violation is occurring, but how egregious it is.

I've met one person who I'm reasonably sure is multiboxing legitimately, and I'm genuinely impressed that they're able to do it. This is out of the hundreds of people I've met on my server, many of who multibox by cheating to varying extents. Yeah, personal experience isn't evidence, but for me it's fairly conclusive.

Honestly though, I'm not trying to pick fights - I'm just genuinely disappointed that so many interesting features like this one are unfortunately quite pointless until SE starts putting its foot down.

[Pixela]

I never said that multiboxing is cheating. I said that the vast majority of people who multibox are cheating. There's a fine difference, but I think that it's a very important one.

I disagree.

[Sirmarki]

I disagree.

Well, It looks like we will have to draw a line under this 'debate' and agree to disagree in this case.

[Zehira]

I guess... my ~new~ signature has caused people to start debating about multiboxing...

[Alhanelem]

https://i.imgur.com/tYrNveR.jpg

Your example is as far fetched as far fetched can get, so much so that it is comical because how many people playing FFXI are doing what you have tried to illustrate in that picture?
You've searched the most craziest/extreme image online and posted it.

You're telling me that people are alt-tabbing between screens to play (even though you can only run one instance legitimately and I doubt they are running 5 VM's)...
They are controlling numerous characters with spot on reactions by alt-tabbing through 6 different screens?

Please.....
I mean, it can be done, and I'm sure some of the first people who did it, did it this way.

[Alhanelem]

"2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay."

So, Pixela, that isn't against the rules?
Using a tool to control 6 clients with one controller isn't automation.

Automation is using scripts to run the game unattended. Multiboxing does not necessarily mean automation.

Personally I only have an issue with people using tools to do things that a normal player couldn't possibly do. i.e. speedhacking, gaining acceess to information and data that is not normally shown to the player, etc. Of course that also includes automation scripts to let the game play itself without your intervention. Things that are designed to harm other players' experiences. As long as the multiboxer is actually present and playing, I don't have much problem with it.

I never said that multiboxing is cheating. I said that the vast majority of people who multibox are cheating. There's a fine difference, but I think that it's a very important one.I agree that there is a difference. I disagree with the notion that most multiboxers are also cheaters. Some do, yes. But this is another thing that probably varies greatly by server.

I also agree with the notion that FFXI's slower pace of combat does make real time multiboxing (i.e. actually playing multiple instances of the game at once without special help) quite possible unlike most modern MMOs.

It's weird how much I find myself agreeing with Pixela in this thread. Cats and dogs, mass hysteria.

[Divinas]

FFXI has fairly slow combat, ironically this makes it a very profitable subscription MMO because so many people can and do multibox (multibolxing is far more diffiult on other games are does require a lot more "help", this is not the case on FFXI). If they did take action on multiboxing (which is not against the rules) they would lose possibly 1/4 of the monthly subs.

The age of the engine is kind of irrelevant anyway though, there are plenty of multiboxers on ffxiv too, and all the things you complain about are on there too.

Back in the day I would use 2 characters in group content like Dynamis or HNM, I didn't even know how to use all these tools some are complaining about. I had my main and I had my alt from my laptop with a controller on my lap, when I needed to use my other character I would move my hands off my keyboard and pick up the controller to fire off the macro, then drop the controller and put my hands on the keyboard again. It's that easy.

And what does pace as to do with this? You clearly were never ganked by 30 Moonkins on WoW who appears out of Catform stealth. Please stop imagining things.

[Kalimairo]

[QUOTE=Sirmarki;632926]"2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay."

So, Pixela, that isn't against the rules. It is against the rules when one button does 6 different things each for 5 characters, its like the old qufim tower exp bott situation

[Kalimairo]

And beside that this game is fast when max buffed pixela please stop protecting 3rd Party hax. Back in the day ul alt tab and manually press ur macros but not today back in the day windower was a bannable offense and you would not tell any 1 if ur running it now u just press one button and it does 10 different things how is that not botting? Like 10 different things including gear-swaps lol... this is a lua that windower devs sells for a couple of thousand dollara or there is one where it knows what to do for whatever situation. And that is also against the rules

[Alhanelem]

And beside that this game is fast when max buffed pixela please stop protecting 3rd Party hax. Back in the day ul alt tab and manually press ur macros but not today back in the day windower was a bannable offense and you would not tell any 1 if ur running it now u just press one button and it does 10 different things how is that not botting? Like 10 different things including gear-swaps lol... this is a lua that windower devs sells for a couple of thousand dollara or there is one where it knows what to do for whatever situation. And that is also against the rulesthey aren't "hax"ing. lol

Some multiboxers are straight up cheaters, yes, just like some people who don't do it are. But it's a falsehood to suggest that all/most of them are.

I'm also not opposed to UI mods / QOL improvements. As long as it doesnt play the game for you, give you an obvious advantage (speedhacking) or give you access to something you shouldn't know about (id numbers, hidden targets, other info that isn't given to the player) I don't have a problem with it. There's a difference between things that improve the hud/ smooth out bad design elements on SE's part that they refuse to fix and things that are outright cheating. If you're against player made QOL improvements, then you'd better not play WoW or most any other MMO, even FFXIV, where they've taken a more relaxed stance on certain things (like parsers), as long as they aren't used to harass others.

[Pixela]

And beside that this game is fast when max buffed pixela please stop protecting 3rd Party hax. Back in the day ul alt tab and manually press ur macros but not today back in the day windower was a bannable offense and you would not tell any 1 if ur running it now u just press one button and it does 10 different things how is that not botting? Like 10 different things including gear-swaps lol... this is a lua that windower devs sells for a couple of thousand dollara or there is one where it knows what to do for whatever situation. And that is also against the rules

The vast majority of people who multibox, just have 1 or 2 other characters. They don't do serious endgame, they are not haxxors, they are just playing the game with extra characters to self heal and buff. I know someone that is a mom and she plays a few hours in the evenings, she uses her character, her little taru alt and her husbands char sometimes. She isn't in the Matrix with her VR headset on, using a powerglove and super AI hax powering her 2 alts. Most people are just fumbling around.

The fact some people do these things does not make them the majority anymore than saying the majority use gearswap. A lot of endgame players do, most players do not and in-fact most don't even do content over Difficult either.

Your hatred for multiboxing is making you generalize them all to be some great evil, they aren't.

[Stompa]

On topic, I see no reason to not have an ambuscade leaderboard, if it makes people happy. Ambuscade is an artificial instanced event, there is no realistic RPG aspect to it, NMs are not being hunted in the wilderness, it is completely automated and synthetic, like a sporting event, so there is no reason not to apply sporting leaderboards to it. I personally don't do ambuscade, so it doesn't affect me.

On the multi-box thing, I have no issues with people multi-boxing, provided they are using 100% pure vanilla FFXI code.

I have stated a million times, FFXI vanilla code is a masterpiece work of art. I consider FFXI vanilla code to be the most beautiful and magnificent achievement in human history. Adding any kind of external 3rd-party code to the core vanilla FFXI game, is like spray-painting graffiti on the Mona Lisa.

I don't care what the minor 3rd party tweaks are, convenience / cosmetic / etc. I am an FFXI Puritan, I have seen the beauty of the Game As It Is Intended To Be Played, and I completely reject, and recoil in disgust from, any alterations to the true vanilla FFXI code, which to me is the most beautiful thing in my life.
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