new PLD job ability idea, may solve problems

[MercenaryX]

While I will not say that PLD has become useless or anything harsh like that (believe me i love PLD) its come to my attention that they've become too obsolite in comparison to other jobs like ninja and monk when it comes to tanking. So here is a new job ability suggestion, please discuss it for your consideration. I'd love to have some feedback especially from developers/mods of the forum. You could tweak this idea any way you see fit, but this is what i've come up with:

New PLD job ability:

Fortify:

In Game Description: Reduces all forms of damage by 50%, and increases enmity (VERY similar to sentential)

Details: Reduces all forms of damage taken by 50%, and instead of losing enmity with each time you’re hit, you gain it. This move could also generate a sum of hate just by using it on yourself

Target: Self only

Duration: 2 minutes <___________________________

Recast time: 3 minutes <````````````````````````````````````````````` These are the parts that make this so appealing.

Optional additional features: Reduce attack or STR for that same period by a certain amount.

Recommended level to learn at: PLD lv. 80, but anything 75~99 would work



Or if you’d like, for the enmity, another way to consider doing this would be to allow pld to absorb hate from all the party members while its in effect… to some extent. For instance, while the rest of the party is pummeling on the monster, an amount of hate is generated each time they strike the enemy. My suggestion here is to perhaps make it so that half the hate generated from a normal ‘auto attack’ attack be instead contributed to the paladin’s enmity while this job ability is in effect, instead of above mentioned enmity idea. (Also you could tweak this idea to include hate from weapon skills too, it'd be nice to get this to work for full alliance hate though i'm not sure if thats possible)



Another maybe not so popular suggestion to PLD may be to give them a late job ability that mimics the basic points of white mages cure+stone skin job ability. (I forget which one is which lol so I wont say the name). Of course you’d have to call it something else, and weaken it a bit perhaps, and take away its hidden effects (or keep them, I don’t see why not), but giving PLD the ability to bestow stoneskin with cures might be a good first step in trying to give PLD the edge with tanking again so that its easier to rival that of a NIN’s abilities.

[Novax]

It's not that PLD can't tank, they're good at dmg mitigation atm. DDs on the other hand do it just as well, while providing much better DDing. In order for Pld to be viable again, they need to either A) get a major Dmg boost, or B) be in an alliance full of /thf o.o

[MercenaryX]

yeah but this would help tip them over the edge and make them better than jobs that SHOULDNT be that good at doing such a thing.

[Greatguardian]

"Should". I'm sick of hearing that. The present is how jobs Are. The future is how jobs Will Be. There is no "Should" aside from in people's heads.

[Karbuncle]

Reducing Damage and enmity aren't the problems.

The problems are other jobs can generate enmity, reduce damage, and deal more damage than PLD. Basically as the game stands right now (not saying at 95/99 it wont change), DD tanks can survive anything a PLD can without being in danger, and kill the mob quicker.

theres less need for the "Safety net" PLD gave us. In the future this might change, but the problem has never been PLD can't reduce damage, or PLD can't keep hate, Its that other DD-tanks can do all that, some better than PLD, and Still kill the mob quicker.

This job ability would be interesting, But imposing a nerf to Attack for more DEF is everything thats wrong with PLD.

Which is too much DEF, not enough Attack.

[rog]

This would not even sort of fix any of pld's problems.

[blowfin]

"Should". I'm sick of hearing that. The present is how jobs Are. The future is how jobs Will Be. There is no "Should" aside from in people's heads.

But, but... THF, DRK and DNC NEED boosts....

[MercenaryX]

well, i guess then we'd have to take a cap off of emity or something for that to work... i use the word "should and shouldnt" based on the way the jobs are intended to be designed (other than NIN and SAM...) originally.

[Novax]

The jobs are exactly how they designed them though, don't you think?

[MercenaryX]

almost, but these days mnks and every DD and their grandma are tanking when they were meant to strictly be DD's, and pld is getting shoved out as tanking possibilities because of it.

[Greatguardian]

The jobs are exactly how they designed them though, don't you think?

This is exactly the point. The only "Should" comes from the players. "Paladin should be a turtle". "Monk should be a paper-thin DD that dies if the mob blinks". "Red Mage should be a swordsman". "Ninja used Black Magic in other Final Fantasies so they should get Meteor".

The jobs are there. They do exactly what they do right now. There is no "How they were meant to be", or "How they're supposed to be", let alone "How they were in other games/media".

These are the jobs right now. This is Final Fantasy XI, right now. I'm sorry if it doesn't conform to what fans of the series think it "Should" be. But it is what it is and it's a plenty strong game in its own right.

[Sagian]

This is exactly the point. The only "Should" comes from the players. "Paladin should be a turtle". "Monk should be a paper-thin DD that dies if the mob blinks". "Red Mage should be a swordsman". "Ninja used Black Magic in other Final Fantasies so they should get Meteor".

The jobs are there. They do exactly what they do right now. There is no "How they were meant to be", or "How they're supposed to be", let alone "How they were in other games/media".

These are the jobs right now. This is Final Fantasy XI, right now. I'm sorry if it doesn't conform to what fans of the series think it "Should" be. But it is what it is and it's a plenty strong game in its own right.

The jobs also "were what they were", and if the devs thought the way you do, they still would be.

Seriously, the players have opinions about what a Paladin 'should' be. It's perfectly legitimate for them to express their concerns, especially since the job is essentially useless for a very large and important part of the content. Instead of expressing your disdain for what other people think, maybe offer up some solutions of your own, yeah? Otherwise, you're just trolling.

Paladins 'should' absorb damage like a sponge. Paladins 'should' be able to make an enemy forget a Monk even exists. Paladins 'should' deliver more damage than they presently do. Paladins 'should' for no other reason than I say they 'should', because I am Paladin... RAWR!

Now, take a chill-pill and tell everyone what you think SE 'should' do to fix Paladin... or are you still going to claim "it is what it is" and no one else has a right to make suggestions on how it 'should' be fixed?

[Greatguardian]

The jobs also "were what they were", and if the devs thought the way you do, they still would be.

Seriously, the players have opinions about what a Paladin 'should' be. It's perfectly legitimate for them to express their concerns, especially since the job is essentially useless for a very large and important part of the content. Instead of expressing your disdain for what other people think, maybe offer up some solutions of your own, yeah? Otherwise, you're just trolling.

Paladins 'should' absorb damage like a sponge. Paladins 'should' be able to make an enemy forget a Monk even exists. Paladins 'should' deliver more damage than they presently do. Paladins 'should' for no other reason than I say they 'should', because I am Paladin... RAWR!

Now, take a chill-pill and tell everyone what you think SE 'should' do to fix Paladin... or are you still going to claim "it is what it is" and no one else has a right to make suggestions on how it 'should' be fixed?

Oh okay, because it's an opinion I'm not allowed to say it's totally dumb. Gotcha.

I could offer up plenty of ways to "fix" Paladin, assuming that it really needs fixing. I'm sure I have in other threads, too. The problem with threads like this and many others in the Paladin subforum is that a lot of people don't want Paladin "Fixed". They want Paladin "Made how it should be". They don't want solutions that make Paladin more viable, they want solutions that make Paladin a shiny white knight in Orichalcum armor that takes 0 damage from monsters and has capped Enmity at all times.

As a player who has had Paladin leveled for a long time myself, and who does love the job as much as the next guy, I can still say that 95% of these player-suggested buffs are completely ignoring the reason why most people laugh at Paladin. It's not because the job is innately worthless. It has a few things going for it (NO, Blue and Red procs are NOT going for it and if you want I can write out exactly why PLD is worthless in the Trigger department), but Paladin's biggest shortcoming is the people who play Paladin. If the majority of Paladin posters/players have their way, Paladin would just be made even more worthless than it already is.

That said, this thread is probably going to be shoved into the Paladin subforum after a bit anyways so I'm not worried about it. I'm just sick of all this talk of "My favorite job is supposed to be X, Y, and Z even when it's actually A, B, and C in this game. The problem is obviously this game, and they need to change it so that my favorite job is more like what I want it to be". If "Paladin" in FFXI is not your white knight ideal, play a game where it is or get over it instead of moaning about it all the time. Same goes for every other "Cliche" job.

[wish12oz]

If you want PLD to tank, the only way to accomplish this reasonably would be to allow PLD to gain more enmity then any other job, to always break the current hate cap everyone else is stuck at, so that they can stay above everyone else on the hate list at all times.

[Alhanelem]

If you want PLD to tank, the only way to accomplish this reasonably would be to allow PLD to gain more enmity then any other job, to always break the current hate cap everyone else is stuck at, so that they can stay above everyone else on the hate list at all times.

This, essentially. Either give them an Enmity Boost trait, or give them a trait that raises the hate cap for PLD, so it's possible for them to get more hate than anyone else.

[rog]

If you want PLD to tank, the only way to accomplish this reasonably would be to allow PLD to gain more enmity then any other job, to always break the current hate cap everyone else is stuck at, so that they can stay above everyone else on the hate list at all times.Still would not be enough.

[Orson]

If you want PLD to tank, the only way to accomplish this reasonably would be to allow PLD to gain more enmity then any other job, to always break the current hate cap everyone else is stuck at, so that they can stay above everyone else on the hate list at all times.

Without turning Pld into a better DD than well DDs there's little place in the game for it at the moment. If they created some really tough enemies that basically required a Pld with Ochain to tank then they'd have a place. The problem is in all cases right now another job mitigates damage well enough to survive with the same support and does more damage.

[Zumi]

Heres the problems that exist with PLD

* Endgame NMs can not kill melee very easily thus the need decreasing the need for a tank. Regular melee jobs do more damage then PLD and have the same if not more in some cases MNK, Nin damage mitigation then a PLD. So PLD really isn't needed anymore to tank anything. Maybe if mobs were harder but then they would have to give PLD more mitigation then other jobs.

*The damage dealer jobs reach the hate cap really easily so then the mob just bounces around whoever hit it last not really allowing for actual tanking.

[Andylynn]

"Should". I'm sick of hearing that. The present is how jobs Are. The future is how jobs Will Be. There is no "Should" aside from in people's heads.

And I'm sick of detractors thinking content should decide how a job should be played/utilized. If there is no 'should,' I hate to wake you up to smell the coffee, but the community has been putting the shoulds based on content since forever, rather than letting people play how they want for years.

'NIN should be a tank'
'lolPUP, its worthless'
'DRK should zerg'

and now its...
'MNK = best tank ever lololol'
'(I need sam/drk/generic DD advice!) level a real job like WAR or MNK'
etc

Jobs should have a predefined identity that they can retain no matter where content focus shifts, and their JAs/traits should reflect those preordained notions in our head. NIN/MNK/eva jobs were not meant to be tanks, WHM wasn't meant to sit around spamming cure VI on a zombie DD while other healers wish they could party, WAR/NIN and NIN/WAR weren't meant to be the only two jobs capable of doing something for your party. A job with damage mitigation and emnity skills SHOULD be tanking, and not sitting on the sidelines like a pariah, wishing it could do something. A DD job shouldn't sit on a bench watching some of the pisspoor DDs of days yonder surpass their numbers with weapons with a 1/3 of their dmg. (I'm talking about you DNC, NIN and THF. SAM and DRK should > you in #'s not vice versa.)

Anyone should be free to play their job how their JAs/traits originally intended, not be used as a bench warmer, or abused bandwagon, just because the community or content says so.

[Atomic_Skull]

Details: Reduces all forms of damage taken by 50%, and instead of losing enmity with each time you’re hit, you gain it. This move could also generate a sum of hate just by using it on yourself

The enmity cap will still prevent you from holding hate against supercharged melees. what PLD needs is an increase in their enmity caps via job traits.

[Greatguardian]

People play jobs in the manner in which they are most effective in their current state. People use jobs which are most effective for the content they are doing at the current time. There is no static identity. Paladin of 2004 is not Paladin of 2010. If it was, Terra's Staff would still be god-tier.

[wish12oz]

People play jobs in the manner in which they are most effective in their current state. People use jobs which are most effective for the content they are doing at the current time. There is no static identity. Paladin of 2004 is not Paladin of 2010. If it was, Terra's Staff would still be god-tier.

You haven't lived til you've fought Tiamat using pld/wars in full koenig and terra staves as tanks, oh and aerial armor rotations. That was some pro stuff back when grand wyrms first came out. lol

[Arcon]

Oh okay, because it's an opinion I'm not allowed to say it's totally dumb. Gotcha.

Yes.


(NO, Blue and Red procs are NOT going for it and if you want I can write out exactly why PLD is worthless in the Trigger department)

Please do. You mentioned PLD being useless for that before, and I explained how it was wrong, unless your definition of worthless is not being the best at all at the same time. If you know more than me, please elaborate. PLD is one of the best general stagger jobs in the game right now. It's also a good healing job inside Abyssea, same as anything with access to Cure IV.


If "Paladin" in FFXI is not your white knight ideal, play a game where it is or get over it instead of moaning about it all the time. Same goes for every other "Cliche" job.

Moaning is basically what these forums are for. Or call it constructive criticism. Or call it random suggestions. You'd be right on all accounts.

To get on topic, as several people pointed out before, PLD doesn't need to be fixed, the game needs to be fixed:

Defense is drastically underpowered, increase the value of this status attribute
Possibly adjust PDT/MDT/MDB calculations accordingly. 50% cap for PDT/MDT is nothing to write home about.
Increase shield block rate or effect, possibly both

Some people suggested 100% block rate, or 100% damage blocked, which is ridiculous. But right now, shield doesn't give us much of a boost, considering we're a natively blood tanking job.
Revamp the enmity system

Maybe I shouldn't have posted it in the Battle Contents forum, since it barely got any views. There have been a few suggestions to adjust enmity on here, most of which didn't make sense. I suggested a new system here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5603-Enmity). This would alleviate some issues inherent to the enmity system right now.


Paladins don't need to be better damage dealers if the enmity system is adjusted. They were never supposed to shine in damage. People are blinded by Abyssea, which is really pointless to get upset about. It's one single event, one that will be outdated in a bit, or at least put down to a less important role, which is AF3 farming grounds. Many jobs didn't have uses for particular events/battlefields before, it's the same thing here.

Still, PLD is losing its efficiency even outside of Abyssea, since melee damage gets ever higher, thus enmity generation ever more of a problem. Maybe it will change with the next update, but it doesn't change that these aspects are outdated and could use a redesign. Defense, for example, was always rather useless, enmity cap was always too easy to reach and limited playstyle, etc. Would love to see some of these things addressed.

[Bubeeky]

I'm don't know about any fixes, as I don't play pld, but I have many pld friends and I have to say, as a whm, watching a thf tank while the pld is regulated to back up healing and no melee just isn't right...you can't tell me that with situations like that that there's nothing wrong with pld and that it doesn't need to be fixed somehow...

[Greatguardian]

Yes.

No.




Please do. You mentioned PLD being useless for that before, and I explained how it was wrong, unless your definition of worthless is not being the best at all at the same time. If you know more than me, please elaborate. PLD is one of the best general stagger jobs in the game right now. It's also a good healing job inside Abyssea, same as anything with access to Cure IV.

Blue procs: Worthless because having Sword Blues isn't going to do you any good if you end up with Scythe, or Katana, or any of the myriad other non-PLD Weapon classes in Slashing Blue time. If you are after Blue procs, you should be bringing a MNK and a WHM, period. The second best, but still absolutely horrible option is to bring a THF, DRG, and RNG together for the Piercing time procs. Slashing is absolutely terrible and no one in their right mind should be attempting Blue procs during Slashing hours.

Grellow Procs: Flash. Holy. Banish 2. Banish 3. Unfortunately, if you're doing Grellow within Light-potential hours, you need Banishga 2 to complete your set. In order to get Banishga 2, you need a WHM. If you have a WHM, PLD is redundant at best and useless at worst.

Red Procs: Here is where a lot of people give Paladin way, way more credit than it deserves. Yes, Paladin has a large number of Red procs. Unfortunately, it doesn't have enough of the right ones to make it at all useful in this regard. Every Red proc PLD has, WAR also has. In order for PLD to not be redundant, you have to assume that there is not a WAR in the group.

If there is not a WAR in the group, your best option for additional Red procs becomes Ninja. Unfortunately, a lot of Paladin procs also overlap with Ninja. The only Weaponskills that Paladin has that Ninja does not are Sunburst and Freezebite. Unfortunately, this only brings you up to 12/13 reds. Neither Paladin nor Ninja has Shadow of Death. Since you are assuming that there is not a WAR in the group, this means that the only job which has native access to your last Red proc is Dark Knight. Your only other options are a BST or BLM subbing Warrior or Dark Knight, which is beyond ridiculous.

In a nutshell, in order for Paladin to not be completely redundant for Red procs, your group must not have a Warrior, and must also have a Dark Knight. If you can't figure out what's wrong with that situation, then I just can't say anything else.

If you somehow "Countered" this argument in a previous thread, I did not see it and I'd be more than welcome to hear it again.


Moaning is basically what these forums are for. Or call it constructive criticism. Or call it random suggestions. You'd be right on all accounts.

No. Providing Feedback does not equate to whining, moaning, and bitching in an incoherent mess.


To get on topic, as several people pointed out before, PLD doesn't need to be fixed, the game needs to be fixed:
Defense is drastically underpowered, increase the value of this status attribute

Because job adjustments equate to changing fundamental game mechanics. No. Defense will never be more worthwhile on any existing content, ever. The only way to make Defense worthwhile for potential new content is to tailor-make new NMs whose Attack scores are abysmal but whose Damage scores are massive. I've already mentioned this in another thread. So far, NMs of this type have only been implemented in a single area in the entire game (an Assault). If they were a pilot program, it's obvious that it failed and it is unlikely that we will see this sort of thing in the future.


Possibly adjust PDT/MDT/MDB calculations accordingly. 50% cap for PDT/MDT is nothing to write home about.

This is also never going to happen. The 50% hard cap on player PDT/MDT is extremely important in the preservation of game balance. Removing it, or adjusting it, has the potential to be massively exploited and make Invincible players (see: Ducal Guard SMN pre-nerf, and Ducal Guard BST which is still invincible)


Increase shield block rate or effect, possibly both
Some people suggested 100% block rate, or 100% damage blocked, which is ridiculous. But right now, shield doesn't give us much of a boost, considering we're a natively blood tanking job.

Shields that aren't Ochain are practically worthless as it stands right now. Fortunately, Ochain is fairly easy to get and is practically a license to god-mode so there's no real point in powering up Shields. Any buff given to Shields will positively break the entire game with Ochain.


Revamp the enmity system
[Maybe I shouldn't have posted it in the Battle Contents forum, since it barely got any views. There have been a few suggestions to adjust enmity on here, most of which didn't make sense. I suggested a new system here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5603-Enmity). This would alleviate some issues inherent to the enmity system right now.

Again, you're trying to alter fundamental game mechanics in order to make Paladin more viable instead of altering Paladin to be more viable in the game's existing rule-set. This is never the way to fix jobs.


Paladins don't need to be better damage dealers if the enmity system is adjusted. They were never supposed to shine in damage. People are blinded by Abyssea, which is really pointless to get upset about. It's one single event, one that will be outdated in a bit, or at least put down to a less important role, which is AF3 farming grounds. Many jobs didn't have uses for particular events/battlefields before, it's the same thing here.

Still, PLD is losing its efficiency even outside of Abyssea, since melee damage gets ever higher, thus enmity generation ever more of a problem. Maybe it will change with the next update, but it doesn't change that these aspects are outdated and could use a redesign. Defense, for example, was always rather useless, enmity cap was always too easy to reach and limited playstyle, etc. Would love to see some of these things addressed.

Paladin has always had the potential to be a strong DD while performing its other duties. The only reason it took so long for people to jump on the bandwagon was a lack of general player knowledge. Atonement did not start PLD DD'ing, it simply made it mainstream. Any PLD worth a shit has had a Vorpal Blade set for half a decade now.

Any solution that requires changing the game to fit Paladin instead of changing Paladin to fit the game is not a solution at all.

[Malamasala]

I'm don't know about any fixes, as I don't play pld, but I have many pld friends and I have to say, as a whm, watching a thf tank while the pld is regulated to back up healing and no melee just isn't right...you can't tell me that with situations like that that there's nothing wrong with pld and that it doesn't need to be fixed somehow...

I've main healed on Summoner until Abyssea. If Summoner didn't get any update in all those years to fix their problem, we certainly do not need to work on PLD for another decade. (We can give them useless stuff though. How about another defender?)

[Chiibi]

But, but... THF, DRK and DNC NEED boosts....

Dancer needs a boost? explain please

[Sparthos]

Dancer needs a boost? explain please

DNC healing is all stuck on one timer, status removal is abysmal, steps are underwhelming are three complaints offhand.

[Arcon]

No.

Yes. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/117-Welcome-to-Forum-General-Discussion!)


Blue procs: Worthless because having Sword Blues isn't going to do you any good if you end up with Scythe, or Katana, or any of the myriad other non-PLD Weapon classes in Slashing Blue time. If you are after Blue procs, you should be bringing a MNK and a WHM, period. The second best, but still absolutely horrible option is to bring a THF, DRG, and RNG together for the Piercing time procs. Slashing is absolutely terrible and no one in their right mind should be attempting Blue procs during Slashing hours.

Grellow Procs: Flash. Holy. Banish 2. Banish 3. Unfortunately, if you're doing Grellow within Light-potential hours, you need Banishga 2 to complete your set. In order to get Banishga 2, you need a WHM. If you have a WHM, PLD is redundant at best and useless at worst.

Red Procs: Here is where a lot of people give Paladin way, way more credit than it deserves. Yes, Paladin has a large number of Red procs. Unfortunately, it doesn't have enough of the right ones to make it at all useful in this regard. Every Red proc PLD has, WAR also has. In order for PLD to not be redundant, you have to assume that there is not a WAR in the group.

If there is not a WAR in the group, your best option for additional Red procs becomes Ninja. Unfortunately, a lot of Paladin procs also overlap with Ninja. The only Weaponskills that Paladin has that Ninja does not are Sunburst and Freezebite. Unfortunately, this only brings you up to 12/13 reds. Neither Paladin nor Ninja has Shadow of Death. Since you are assuming that there is not a WAR in the group, this means that the only job which has native access to your last Red proc is Dark Knight. Your only other options are a BST or BLM subbing Warrior or Dark Knight, which is beyond ridiculous.

In a nutshell, in order for Paladin to not be completely redundant for Red procs, your group must not have a Warrior, and must also have a Dark Knight. If you can't figure out what's wrong with that situation, then I just can't say anything else.

If you somehow "Countered" this argument in a previous thread, I did not see it and I'd be more than welcome to hear it again.

There is no argument, because you're making two assumptions that are not or not always met. Firstly you assume that you have other people/jobs available, sometimes you don't. Secondly, you assume that you can choose the time you're gonna do this at, blunt, slashing or piercing. However, if you saved up TEs and stay in zone to get random KIs/Atmas/Abyssites while you're there, you're not gonna wait till piercing and then ask a RNG friend to come out. You're gonna try to make the best of it, and PLD is great for that. It still isn't the best, and I know that, but it doesn't change the fact that it's good. You seem to be annoyed because it's the best, and I knew you were gonna say that:

[..] unless your definition of worthless is not being the best at all at the same time

Also, PLD can do all WAR red !! except for Shadow of Darkness. Also, not sure why you mention slashing when PLD can do 9/15 blunt WS. And this thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2650-Paladin-Helping-to-return-it-to-top-tank) is the one I'm talking about.


No. Providing Feedback does not equate to whining, moaning, and bitching in an incoherent mess.

The point is, that if it's moaning or whining or bitching is often judged by the wrong people. People often call any kind of criticism they don't agree with moaning to make it seem less respectable (happened in this thread too).


Because job adjustments equate to changing fundamental game mechanics.

How do you figure?


No. Defense will never be more worthwhile on any existing content, ever. The only way to make Defense worthwhile for potential new content is to tailor-make new NMs whose Attack scores are abysmal but whose Damage scores are massive. I've already mentioned this in another thread. So far, NMs of this type have only been implemented in a single area in the entire game (an Assault). If they were a pilot program, it's obvious that it failed and it is unlikely that we will see this sort of thing in the future.

Speculation.


This is also never going to happen. The 50% hard cap on player PDT/MDT is extremely important in the preservation of game balance. Removing it, or adjusting it, has the potential to be massively exploited and make Invincible players (see: Ducal Guard SMN pre-nerf, and Ducal Guard BST which is still invincible)

Abyssea talk again. Also, I didn't say to raise the cap to 100%, I just said to raise it. 50% reduction isn't much. Obviously it's about moderation, just like with the haste cap. Saying 80% PDT is too much is like saying 80% haste is too much, but I don't see anyone complaining about that (although I do remember a lot of complaining when it was reduced).


Shields that aren't Ochain are practically worthless as it stands right now. Fortunately, Ochain is fairly easy to get and is practically a license to god-mode so there's no real point in powering up Shields. Any buff given to Shields will positively break the entire game with Ochain.

So you're ok with the fact that they force one item on you to be efficient? Ochain stands in no relation to any shield before, in fact I dare to say it stands in no relation to any item before. It's the Black Belt +3 for Paladins. Something overpowered like this needs to be adjusted in some way, it's a lot more broken than Aegis was at 75. Either way, right now PLDs are forced to use Ochain, and ignoring an entire part of the game dynamic for one single item, I'm sure that's not what the dev team had in mind.


Again, you're trying to alter fundamental game mechanics in order to make Paladin more viable instead of altering Paladin to be more viable in the game's existing rule-set.

Completely wrong, this enmity adjustment has nothing to do with PLDs at all. It's something that's bothered me for the longest time, inside and outside of Abyssea, with or without PLDs, or any tanks for that matter. In fact, just changing that the way I wanted it to wouldn't help PLDs tank better without some other adjustments.


This is never the way to fix jobs.

While it didn't really apply here, it's still wrong. Some jobs depend on a certain game dynamic, so a broken dynamic results in a broken job. The real argument is whether or not it's broken, and in my opinion it is.


Paladin has always had the potential to be a strong DD while performing its other duties. The only reason it took so long for people to jump on the bandwagon was a lack of general player knowledge. Atonement did not start PLD DD'ing, it simply made it mainstream. Any PLD worth a shit has had a Vorpal Blade set for half a decade now.

How do you define strong? Stronger than people expected it to be? Yes, definitely. I loved going to Nyzul on PLD just to prove to bandwagon SAMs I could out damage them. Strong enough to generate enmity through damage? To some degree, yes, unless it was a HNM (before Atonement). Strong enough to compete with decent damage dealers on any kind of important NM? No.

[Alhanelem]

Any solution that requires changing the game to fit PaladinIf a flawed game mechanic can be improved such that PLD is able to do its job properly, without damaging any other job's ability to perform, then it should be. It's not changing the game to fit paladin, it's changing the game to fit balance as a whole.

The current enmity mechanics are flawed, especially in abyssea where even non-DDs can cap their hate. There should not be an easily reachable hate cieling.

The problem with PLD is there's little reason to use it over anything else even when it is effective. The best solution is a trait or ability for PLD that gives them a tanking advantage, given the fact that it's what PLD was built to do. It needs something that stands out as special. (Until reprisal, PLD had no exclusive magic, whereas its counterpart DRK had several).

[Greatguardian]

Yes. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/117-Welcome-to-Forum-General-Discussion!)

If it's a problem, report the post and see what happens.


There is no argument, because you're making two assumptions that are not or not always met. Firstly you assume that you have other people/jobs available, sometimes you don't. Secondly, you assume that you can choose the time you're gonna do this at, blunt, slashing or piercing. However, if you saved up TEs and stay in zone to get random KIs/Atmas/Abyssites while you're there, you're not gonna wait till piercing and then ask a RNG friend to come out. You're gonna try to make the best of it, and PLD is great for that. It still isn't the best, and I know that, but it doesn't change the fact that it's good. You seem to be annoyed because it's the best, and I knew you were gonna say that:


Also, PLD can do all WAR red !! except for Shadow of Darkness. Also, not sure why you mention slashing when PLD can do 9/15 blunt WS. And this thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2650-Paladin-Helping-to-return-it-to-top-tank) is the one I'm talking about.

Trying for Blue in Slashing hours is a waste. You can very much handle doing something else for 15 minutes in order to move the Vana'diel clock into a better position for triggers. Mentioning Paladin's Blunt triggers again becomes irrelevant because Monk and White Mage are still the only jobs in the game that get Asuran Fists and Hexa Strike respectively. Having 9/15 blunt WS may as well be the same as having 0/15 blunt WS if the /random lands on something Paladin does not have. There is no consolation prize for having "Everything but" what you need to proc.

Calling out job changes/availability is also just silly. Someone coming Paladin because it's their only job does not make Paladin useful. It simply means that said player doesn't have a useful job.


The point is, that if it's moaning or whining or bitching is often judged by the wrong people. People often call any kind of criticism they don't agree with moaning to make it seem less respectable (happened in this thread too).

It happens. There is also very real whining/moaning/bitching, and the fact that it is sometimes misrepresented does not mean that it does not happen plenty.


How do you figure?

This is a misunderstanding. That sentence is sarcasm, and is followed immediately the "No." at the beginning of the next quote as elaboration.


Speculation.

How often does the Development Team completely overhaul fundamental game mechanics? I haven't seen a change on the scale you're talking about since the 2H buff.


Abyssea talk again. Also, I didn't say to raise the cap to 100%, I just said to raise it. 50% reduction isn't much. Obviously it's about moderation, just like with the haste cap. Saying 80% PDT is too much is like saying 80% haste is too much, but I don't see anyone complaining about that (although I do remember a lot of complaining when it was reduced).

Just because those two particular examples are from Abyssea does not mean that the potential abuse of this mechanic is limited to Abyssea. Messing with PDT and MDT is extremely dangerous ground. It's already ridiculous easy for some jobs to reduce damage taken to near-nothing.


So you're ok with the fact that they force one item on you to be efficient? Ochain stands in no relation to any shield before, in fact I dare to say it stands in no relation to any item before. It's the Black Belt +3 for Paladins. Something overpowered like this needs to be adjusted in some way, it's a lot more broken than Aegis was at 75. Either way, right now PLDs are forced to use Ochain, and ignoring an entire part of the game dynamic for one single item, I'm sure that's not what the dev team had in mind.

It does not matter if being "Good" requires Ochain or not. Any buff to make normal shields worthwhile is going to make Ochain absolutely untouchable, and it's already God-Mode as is. I don't see them suddenly excluding the "Ultimate Shield" from a Shield buff either.


Completely wrong, this enmity adjustment has nothing to do with PLDs at all. It's something that's bothered me for the longest time, inside and outside of Abyssea, with or without PLDs, or any tanks for that matter. In fact, just changing that the way I wanted it to wouldn't help PLDs tank better without some other adjustments.

Changing the very core of how the game works at this stage of the game's life is outlandish at best.


While it didn't really apply here, it's still wrong. Some jobs depend on a certain game dynamic, so a broken dynamic results in a broken job. The real argument is whether or not it's broken, and in my opinion it is.

I dare say it's working as intended, ol' chap.


How do you define strong? Stronger than people expected it to be? Yes, definitely. I loved going to Nyzul on PLD just to prove to bandwagon SAMs I could out damage them. Strong enough to generate enmity through damage? To some degree, yes, unless it was a HNM (before Atonement). Strong enough to compete with decent damage dealers on any kind of important NM? No.

This is exactly the point. Yeah, there's no way a Paladin (with or without a shield) is going to keep up with a real DD. Never has been, either. But it can definitely school weaker DDs, and there's nothing wrong with a PLD being able to DD. Dealing damage is an effective way to gain Enmity. That is how it is. Given the choice between enhanced DD capability for Enmity, and a complete overhaul of the Enmity system such that Paladin no longer has to deal damage, I dare say the former is much more likely to happen and work out.

People are completely misrepresenting the Enmity system when they complain about current content. The amount of damage that is required to cap Enmity is based on the level of the monster. Monsters outside Abyssea are a lower level than us. Not only are we dealing bonus damage to them via level correction, but we are able to hit the hate cap with less damage because they are at a low level. Monsters inside Abyssea are a high enough level to raise the damage required to hit the hate cap, but at the same time we are running around with Atmas and Furtherance buffs out the ass and lopping off 5k WS every 20 seconds.

The fact of the matter is, there is not a single NM in the game as it stands right now where the Enmity system is even intended to work properly. The solution to a hell of a lot of these Enmity woes comes in the form of Overworld NMs which are higher than level 90; aka Voidwatch.

[Airget]

With Abyssea PLD doesn't get to see much action since other jobs can take the meat of the damage or evade and limit the amount of damage they tank. While this will most likely change once we are welcomed to Voidwalkers, it does appear that maybe a few more traits would help PLD be the Top tank.

JT. Guardian:
Decrease enmity lost and dmg taken when taking on multiple foes
2mobs=-5% Enmity loss, -2% dmg taken
3=-10%, -4%
4=-15% -6%
5=-20% -8%
--
JA Holy Shield: Duration 30 seconds Recast 5 min
Target Ally receives a barrier in which all dmg is dealt to the PLD, the target recieves enmity loss for the dmg taken on the PLD.
--
JA Blinding Light: Duration 1min Recast 10 mins
AOE causing Enmity Boost on the user and Pax(enmity down) effect on all other allies
--
Just throwing some ideas out there though the main concerns with PLD come from their effectiveness in abyssea or the fact that other jobs can do just as well if not better because of the atmas and enhancements they can receive. Overall maybe changes to PLD won't be needed once the new content is released outside of abyssea but only time will tell after the next VU.

[Malamasala]

I think all you PLDs need to take one step back and observe the community. It should be perfectly clear to you people that a PLD was only ever invited because WHMs had a hard time keeping other jobs alive. Just remembering the bird camps should make it obvious that when monsters don't hit hard enough, tanks are out of the picture.

The solution is more or less that you need all melee jobs to die easier. That is your only path back into parties. Give PLD "resist zombie" and then add monsters with en-zombie on and you should solve it all. Or rather you don't solve it, you make PLD the only tank and all other jobs should stay away from the NM and only use RNGs, BLMs, and SMNs.

Of course you could all also treat FFXI as a game, and invite any job to any activity and adapt to that... but that wouldn't be easy mode any longer.

[Alkalinehoe]

or B) be in an alliance full of /thf o.o

lolwut....


I had to double take.

[kewitt]

It's not that PLD need more hate, it's that DD need less. Give Sch/Brd/Cor a eminty down effect. Reduces over time more quickly or reduces the gain of eminty.

Cor Roll
lucky number 90% off normal eminty
unlucky 10%

Bust -10% so gain eminty faster Which would be almost good.
Here is the skill in this..
Cor > Eminty down everyone in the party > Get PLD alone Bust > uses fold to be able to roll something else for other people.

this would atleast see people tring to get 11 on this one roll.

[Greatguardian]

It's not that PLD need more hate, it's that DD need less. Give Sch/Brd/Cor a eminty down effect. Reduces over time more quickly or reduces the gain of eminty.

Cor Roll
lucky number 90% off normal eminty
unlucky 10%

Bust -10% so gain eminty faster Which would be almost good.
Here is the skill in this..
Cor > Eminty down everyone in the party > Get PLD alone Bust > uses fold to be able to roll something else for other people.

this would atleast see people tring to get 11 on this one roll.

SCH already has an Enmity Down spell.

[Bubeeky]

but don't sch hate that spell? I've never seen a sch use it :(

[Greatguardian]

I never said it was a useful spell. I just said it was already in the game.

[Malamasala]

SCH already has an Enmity Down spell.

So does BRD. It is just that nobody wants to bother with enmity (like inviting THFs, SMNs, DRGs etc). The only thing the average player wants to do is damage, and then they can turn off their brains and drink some Cola.

[Greatguardian]

So does BRD. It is just that nobody wants to bother with enmity (like inviting THFs, SMNs, DRGs etc). The only thing the average player wants to do is damage, and then they can turn off their brains and drink some Cola.

I take a THF to everything and DRG is one of the best DDs in the game for all "Doing damage" matters. SMN is still crap though, so 1/3 isn't so bad.

[Andylynn]

So does BRD. It is just that nobody wants to bother with enmity (like inviting THFs, SMNs, DRGs etc). The only thing the average player wants to do is damage, and then they can turn off their brains and drink some Cola.

And that's why there are 3423423 bandwagon mnks. Counterstance zombie mode, ftw???

[Miera]

Which is too much DEF, not enough Attack.

lol DRK and PLD are complete opposite of each other when you look at that.

But yeah, all I hear about PPLD bashing is "I don't want to sit there and watch a PLD beat a mob down for two hours blah blah blah" its kind of sad but maybe they can give some attack boosts to PLD to make them worth while.