Is it time to do away with a "permanent" record?

[Pixela]

On FFXI, we have one warning ban and then the next is a perma ban. This made sense many years ago when the rules were made but do they now?

Considering this game is nearly 20 years old, is this really fair and does the company really want to lose people that have played that long that are not bad people? Considering you can get a temp ban for killing or even annoying a RMT or bot or being edgy in shout 19 years ago? You can literally get a temp ban for warping a bot or RMT job point seller.

Is there any possibility this can bet set to the last few years or something to be more fair to players that have spent large portions of their life playing this game and still do? Many of us were teenagers when we started playing this game and 20 years is a long long time, the way we acted when we were 14 is not how we would act now.

Is there any possibility one of the community team can suggest this or promote the idea to someone that can make a decision on it?

I'm all for one a warning and then a ban but that one warning lasting 20+ years is totally unfair considering you can get a ban for very minor things and there is little in the way of appealing a ban (from what i read).

We have played this game since we were teenagers, our accounts mean a lot to us and this rule is not fair at all. Please consider, passing this idea along to someone that can make a decision on it community team!

[Sirmarki]

The rule is quite simple.......... Don't cheat... Don't cheat and you won't have anything to worry about.

[Pixela]

The rule is quite simple.......... Don't cheat... Don't cheat and you won't have anything to worry about.

I don't think you understand how it works.

You can get a ban from saying a bad word in yell, you can get a ban for annoying someone like talking their mob if they are AOE killing (I know people who got a temp ban for pulling a monster from an AOE farmer - "harassment"), you can get a ban from MPK a bot or RMT, you can get a ban for joining their party selling job points and warping them, you can get a ban from being lewd in say when you were 14. You can get a ban from other things than cheating and considering many of us were teenagers when this game came out and were a lot more stupid back then it's unfair to have a one strike and you're out policy that lasts 20+ years.

Especially since they don't have a very good appeal system.

[Sirmarki]

I don't think you understand how it works.

I don't think you do.

Everything you mentioned is stated in the Terms of Service as something you shouldn't do - so don't do it. It's that simple, follow the rules, and you have nothing to worry about.
If anything, SE should be coming down harder on people who choose to violate them.

[Soraii]

It. Is. A. Game. There shouldn't be permanent records at all.

Imagine being banned for life from owning a super nintendo for using a gameshark. That's really stupid.

[Sirmarki]

Imagine being banned for life from owning a super nintendo for using a gameshark. That's really stupid.

Not really sure how you can compare a mostly offline single player console from the 90's to an online MMO.

Obviously in an MMO there are other people around. By people cheating gives them an advantage and has a detrimental effect on the people around them.

Like I said, it is all in the ToS that you agree to when you play the game. What you determine as 'really stupid' or not is really a null point.

[Voidstorm]

We're talking about a video game. There shouldn't be permanent bans for anything that isn't actually illegal in the countries the game is hosted to.
RMT either is or should be illegal.
Doing some major hacks to wreak havoc on the game can be viewed as an attack on the company and they should be able to sue for damages.


The punishment needs to match the crime. for current policy of in-game repercussions in real world terms: RMT= capitol punishment; bad words=1~2 jail sentances w/o parole followed by capitol punishment; dupe/exploit = 0~1 jail sentence w/o parole followed by capitol punishment.
Your record is permanent, bad words 15 years ago, 5 years ago, and today? bye
As for real world repercussions: RMT = cost of a new account; bad words = cost of a new account; dupe/exploit = cost of a new account.

[Pixela]

I don't think you do.

Everything you mentioned is stated in the Terms of Service as something you shouldn't do - so don't do it. It's that simple, follow the rules, and you have nothing to worry about.
If anything, SE should be coming down harder on people who choose to violate them.

Have you ever been a teenager? I ask because I'm really not sure.

[Sirmarki]

Have you ever been a teenager? I ask because I'm really not sure.

No, I haven't... I was born a full blown adult.

[Sirmarki]

The punishment needs to match the crime.

I highly doubt people are banned because of a few bad words in yell (unless they really do cross the line).
In reality we are looking at people who use automation, the bending of game mechanics, and damage the game for other people around them in the process.
If people are willing to take that risk, then they must face the consequences.

A leopard rarely changes its spots...

SE already have that kind of system in place, temporary bans for 'light offenses' and permanent bans for offenses considered 'game breaking', or 'damaging to others'.

[Gwydion]

I never liked GTA5 online at all, but I thought it was a good idea to put all the folks who broke the rules on a Jail server. For FFXI, this could be a limited server or even just Mordion Goal x 1000 ...I always thought it was strange that Mordion Goal was not utilized more effectively for temp bans. I do think that SE should count temp bans as "Strikes" that can expire in one year. If you get 2-3 strikes on a year, the 2nd or 3rd strike will be a permanent ban. Just my two cents.

It's kind of a shame to be penalized for a behavior from 5, 10 or even 15 years ago, but if SE wants to keep that stance, they should make temporary bans longer, 1 week or 1-month....and use Mordion Goal more if needed.

[Pixela]

SE already have that kind of system in place, temporary bans for 'light offenses' and permanent bans for offenses considered 'game breaking', or 'damaging to others'.

Everyone gets a temp ban, for anything. If you get 2 temp bans then that = full perma ban. You can get 2 temp bans over the course of 20 years for literally anything and face a perma ban.

To use a real world analogy, it's like jay walking twice (once when you were 12) and then getting life in prison.

[Sirmarki]

Everyone gets a temp ban, for anything. If you get 2 temp bans then that = full perma ban. You can get 2 temp bans over the course of 20 years for literally anything and face a perma ban.

I've never had one.......
I think a lot more people would be banned if that was the case. Also, once you have a temp ban, isn't that a wake up call to follow the rules more closely? To get temp, temp and then ban (2 warnings) is your own doing, doesn't matter over what time period. Anyway, where is your evidence that past strikes have any baring on if you are perma banned or not?


To use a real world analogy, it's like jay walking twice (once when you were 12) and then getting life in prison.

Can't relate to that, where I come from, you can cross the road anywhere legally.

[Elkanah]

I never liked GTA5 online at all, but I thought it was a good idea to put all the folks who broke the rules on a Jail server. For FFXI, this could be a limited server or even just Mordion Goal x 1000 ...I always thought it was strange that Mordion Goal was not utilized more effectively for temp bans. I do think that SE should count temp bans as "Strikes" that can expire in one year. If you get 2-3 strikes on a year, the 2nd or 3rd strike will be a permanent ban. Just my two cents.

It's kind of a shame to be penalized for a behavior from 5, 10 or even 15 years ago, but if SE wants to keep that stance, they should make temporary bans longer, 1 week or 1-month....and use Mordion Goal more if needed.

The only issue I ever saw with the GTA V online jail server, was that they put the same people who used a swear word in the same category as the people who legitimately cheated. Crime doesn't really fit the punishment deserved. As a former CS support agent for Xbox, I can tell you that it's the most annoying thing about enforcement by the companies who think that both have the same fitting punishment for Rockstar, Activision, among other companies. Neither of which made sense. Cheating the game, yeah, I can totally agree. But that makes no sense for someone who said "F-" in chat once, or poked someone a few times.

[Catmato]

I've never had one.......

You might have. They don't tell you about it unless you log in during the suspension and get the LM-# error.


I thought it was a good idea to put all the folks who broke the rules on a Jail server.

Sounds good. Send them all to Asura.

[Sirmarki]

Sounds good. Send them all to Asura.

I think most of them are already there :P

[Zehira]

Yes, Asura is where all the bad boys play. I haven't got one warning or in Mordion Goal since 2003. I only saw one member in my exp party was teleported to there and that was years ago. So I agree with this thread. Record shall be based on the last 12 months or something.


It. Is. A. Game. There shouldn't be permanent records at all.

Imagine being banned for life from owning a super nintendo for using a gameshark. That's really stupid.

Xbox itself can get locked up from online for cheating/hacking and an account won't. People have to buy another Xbox if they want to play online again. It called a policy and it can be changed again anytime and we have to read it to agree again. *nods* Many people don't really read the whole policies from many different companies. Policies can assist a company in defending against legal claims.

FFXI on the other hand is a PC game only so who cares what they do and what they want to do so as long as they don't hurt other players' experience.

[Alhanelem]

Don't get in trouble and you won't get permabanned?

[Sirmarki]

Don't get in trouble and you won't get permabanned?

Exactly :)

I kind of get the vibe that some of the people posting here are the ones who have received bans in some way, shape or form and are now complaining about it :)

[Soraii]

The punishments don't fit the offenses.

You get the same penalty for a curse word as running a bot, and both are lifetime bans for a second transgression.

That's asinine. Always has been, always will be.

[Alhanelem]

The punishments don't fit the offenses.

You get the same penalty for a curse word as running a bot, and both are lifetime bans for a second transgression.

That's asinine. Always has been, always will be.
It's really not asinine and never will be.

You don't get penalized for casually tossing out an F bomb once in a while. You only get penalized if you're reported to a GM for harassment, and usually that only leads to action if you're jumping through hoops to harass them after they blacklist you (which is what GMs will tell you to do first).

People have a potty mouth in game all the time, that by itself doesn't rise to the level of punishment unless its habitual or you're actively harassing a particular person. Getting banned in game for anything other than illegal activity / RMT type stuff is not easy at all, unlike here on the forums where you can get banned for breathing the wrong way. Point is, they don't just casually ban people from the game, because that's not conducive to making money. If you actually get a punishment for poor behavior in chat, it is not going to be you just saying "____ you-" it's going to be a lot more than that.

Because of that, if you actually get banned for it, well, you probably deserve it.

[Soraii]

Regardless how filthy your mouth is, nothing rises to the level of Banned for Life for it.

The game has a filter specifically for swears. That in of itself nullifies the ability to ban for it. If you don't like it, turn your filter on. Don't ban for life.

[Alhanelem]

Regardless how filthy your mouth is, nothing rises to the level of Banned for Life for it.

The game has a filter specifically for swears. That in of itself nullifies the ability to ban for it. If you don't like it, turn your filter on. Don't ban for life.
Like I said, they don't ban you just for cursing. You can, however, be banned for harassment.

Also, the existence of a chat filter is NOT an excuse to flame up a storm. Chat filters don't catch everything and are easily c.ir.cu-mv3nt3d. Therefore, the existence of ac urse filter does not nullify banning people for abusive chat, and you don't make the rules anyway. They can b an people for whatever the hell they want to, it's a privately run service and what they say goes.

[GlobalVariable]

I highly doubt people are banned because of a few bad words in yell (unless they really do cross the line).

You don't get penalized for casually tossing out an F bomb once in a while.

I have seen multiple people get banned for swearing. One close friend perma-banned for swearing. He got reported once for allegedly bad bazaar shouts (someone took offense to advertising signed items "too often") and then for swearing Was told this was his 3rd strike and now its permanent. Other people were swearing too, but nobody was mad at them to report them. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. He wasn't harassing anybody. I was there.

This mentality of "well if it happened you deserved it" is pretty absurd. I do think perma-bans have their place though. I just think the criteria ought to be stricter for it. I also think perma banned players shouldn't be able to just bounce right back like they often do.. I have met numerous perma banned players who in no time flat have a new account and are back at cap building REMA again while cheating their rear ends off, again. Its infuriating.

[Alhanelem]

I have seen multiple people get banned for swearing. One close friend perma-banned for swearing. He got reported once for allegedly bad bazaar shouts (someone took offense to advertising signed items "too often") and then for swearing Was told this was his 3rd strike and now its permanent. Other people were swearing too, but nobody was mad at them to report them. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. He wasn't harassing anybody. I was there.I've cursed up a storm at times and never gotten so much as a warning. That said, where you do it matters. Linkshells and tells are considered private chat and generally aren't looked at except for harassment accusations. But cursing in a public channel (i.e. say/shout/yell) is more of a problem.



This mentality of "well if it happened you deserved it" is pretty absurd. Not EVERY case of protesting a ban is unreasonable, but the vast majority of them are justified. I've worked in the game industry and have had stints helping out with both game and forum moderation on more than one title. Very close to everyone who gets punished doesn't have a case for getting unbanned. Especially in cases of cheating, one look at their data and you know. And in League of Legends, which is notorious for issuing punishments for rude behavior, whenever you get punished for it when you log in the next several times it shows you a chat log of what you said. I have run afoul of temp chat bans in that game and let me tell you, even in cases where I didn't feel like I didn't do anything wrong, when I review the log I iended up thinking "Well, I guess I wasn't exactly a beacon of positvity there...."
(Also certain shorthand like KYS and things like the R word can get you an automatic penalty by the system)

It is very rare that people complaining about punishments have a leg to stand on. I'm banned from the FFXIV forums (R word). Do I feel like it was harsh? Definitely- I am against *permanent* bans in most cases - But did I deserve to be punished? Probably. Even though I was expressing how I thought an idea was bad, mocking disabilities is never acceptable and I myself usually speak out against it- so today I"m actually really surprised I said that.

Also I think it bears repeating: The existence of a curse filter is NOT a license to curse all you want. The logic "if you dont want to see cursing turn the filter on" is flawed for multiple reasons:
1) it is easily circumvented
2) Allowing curse words doesn't necessarily mean you want to see it all the time or that you tolerate all rude behavior- Even though many of us use certain words in casual conversation with each other it doesn't mean we're okay with seeing them used in an abusive context.
3) filter or not, rules are rules.

[Pixela]

I've cursed up a storm at times and never gotten so much as a warning. That said, where you do it matters. Linkshells and tells are considered private chat and generally aren't looked at except for harassment accusations. But cursing in a public channel (i.e. say/shout/yell) is more of a problem.

I should not need to point this out, it seems I do.

Whether action is taken or not is purely based on the GM that deals with you and their own personal ideology, if they are in a good mood then you get a little warning. If not, you get a ban. It's not different then a police officer, the leniency is purely based on their mood / character.

You can curse a million times, and someone else can wait till you log off and do the same thing and get banned just fine.

Ultimately, the point is that there should not be a one ban for all and 2 bans = perma.

They simply need to do away with perma ban for anything but serious violations, this 2 bans and you're gone forever is idiotic.

Years ago I reported a person for stealing monsters from my train as I was mass AoE killing (casting dia on yellow monsters), purely because they kept telling me in say how angry they were and calling me names. I thought it would be funny to send them to jail. I did not think that would result in them getting banned, turned out according to their friend that they not only got banned but a permanent ban due to it being the 2nd offense.

[Alhanelem]

Whether action is taken or not is purely based on the GM that deals with you and their own personal ideology, if they are in a good mood then you get a little warning. If not, you get a ban. It's not different then a police officer, the leniency is purely based on their mood / character.I mean, what's your point? All GMs are trained to follow the rules, but rules can b e interpreted differently by different people, this is true in the court systems etc. as well. None of th em are obligated to be a nice guy or give you leniency, and you should behave on the assumption that you will get none.

Ultimately, the rules that in place are the rules that are in place, and everyone does or should know them. If you agree to the rules and don't follow them, you absolutely should face the perscribed consequences.

[GlobalVariable]

Not EVERY case of protesting a ban is unreasonable, but the vast majority of them are justified.
Yeah, it's just the automatic assumption that I find absurd. Happens offline too - part of human nature I guess. Human brains seem to be wired for absurdity everywhere from pattern recognition (pareidolia) to presumed deserving whatever you get (just world fallacy). 99 of 100 can have "earned" their ban but guy 100 has to deal with "well you must have done it". I think it is a bad argument to put forth when we're discussing what warrants what kind of punishment, because we aren't disagreeing that you do deserve a punishment if you did the deed, you know? That's where my comment about it being absurd came from.

As far as the rest.. it happens, and my take is that they care about it once others complain enough - which may or may not have anything to do with you being a big bad rulebreaker. From a managerial stand point this does make sense. Why waste time moderating chat nobody cared about right? but I'd prefer the strictest consequences be held for the worst offenses.

[Alhanelem]

Yeah, it's just the automatic assumption that I find absurd. If you think it's absurd you've never done moderation for a game studio.

From hacking a game to peices to spouting antisemetic tripe to every player they encounter- bans are rarely made in error. Yet literally everyone feigns innocence when caught.

As I said before, I've gotten chat restricted in league, I've been banned from the FFXIV forums. Does that make me a terrible person? No, but it does mean I made mistakes, mistakes that I learned from.

I generally don't believe in permanent bans- The majority of people who get punished don't offend again in computer game land and so its not normally necessary anyway. But the rules need to exist as do the punishments.

[Zehira]

I've been banned from the FFXIV forums. Does that make me a terrible person? No, but it does mean I made mistakes, mistakes that I learned from.

Yeah, I haven't forgotten about that. You have challenged thousands of people from the FFXIV forums during beta and after that. I am banned from there too. I believe politics are what pushed us to accept them.

Since I can't access to the FFXIV forums, I think it's not fair for people who are still living in Vana'diel still can't access to this forums.

[GlobalVariable]

If you think it's absurd you've never done moderation for a game studio.

Actually I've moderated for a publishers game forums and have been doing in game (not this game, obviously) moderation for 6 years now. I am not saying people don't do things and then lie about it, I am saying just being punished is not in itself evidence that you "deserved" the exact punishment you got. As evidenced by this thread what punishment fits a "crime" is very debatable. Sometime the rules I have to enforce are more or less harsh than I, or the player, or others privy to the details, would agree with. I do have some degree of room for judgement calls on some of the rules, and one thing in particular I will drop the hammer on is dishonesty about what actually happened. I'm sure you can relate to what I am saying there.

[Alhanelem]

Actually I've moderated for a publishers game forums and have been doing in game (not this game, obviously) moderation for 6 years now. I am not saying people don't do things and then lie about it, I am saying just being punished is not in itself evidence that you "deserved" the exact punishment you got.I'm not claiming that it is. What I am claiming is that I know from actual cases that more often than not, people who whine about bans legitimately earned them.

I know I earned mine. I said one word that I shouldn't have said, not really rtealizing at the time how it would be taken, and I got what I deserved.

[GlobalVariable]

I'm not claiming that it is. What I am claiming is that I know from actual cases that more often than not, people who whine about bans legitimately earned them.

If you don't argue with a position I'm not taking I won't argue with a position you aren't taking, deal?

[Zehira]

I know I earned mine. I said one word that I shouldn't have said, not really rtealizing at the time how it would be taken, and I got what I deserved.

https://i.imgur.com/50yHRG4.png

Gone but never forgotten. :o

[Alhanelem]

If you don't argue with a position I'm not taking I won't argue with a position you aren't taking, deal?
Your post adds nothing to the discussion. Make an actual argument and we'll talk.

I'm only telling you from personal experience handling bans that ban appeals rarely succeed because their bans were well earned. Doesn't mean there aren't mistakes, we're all human, but mistakes are rare. I don't endorse eprmanent bans but a punishment has to have some kind of impact or it just isn't going to be effective.

[GlobalVariable]

Edit: never mind, I do not believe you are responding in good faith. You've been insulting. I'm done with you.

[Pixela]

An important thing to understand about Alhanelem is he wants to try and get you annoyed so you get banned from the forum, he has been doing it for years.

Once you understand that and that his replies are with that intent you can just reply to him without any emotion.

[Alhanelem]

Edit: never mind, I do not believe you are responding in good faith. You've been insulting. I'm done with you.I'm sorry you feel that way. I am responding 100% in good faith. You just happen to disagree with my opinion. That's fine, but to imply malice on my part is absolutely wrong and disingenuous.

[Alhanelem]

An important thing to understand about Alhanelem is he wants to try and get you annoyed so you get banned from the forum, he has been doing it for years.

Once you understand that and that his replies are with that intent you can just reply to him without any emotion.This is also a lie and total fabrication. You're just salty about the "take all the money out of my dbox" thread.

I don't want to annoy anyone or get anyone banned, and I have never done so, ever. And even though you are choosing to make libelous comments, I will not report you. In fact, whatever your problem is, I would love to resolve it if there were a way to do so. Further, even f somebody got banned for posting anything on this forum, that is the result of their actions and their actions alone, and there is no way to prove who reported someone to get them banned (or even if somebody reported them at all, as that's not necessary to get in trouble)

The reality of the situation in this thread is simply two people in hard disagreement. It happens, but that doesn't mean either person is specifically trying to hurt the other.

The sad part is that at least three four people believe what you're saying, even though it is false. So if anyone here is being malicious, it's you. But that's your choice, you do you.

So I will say it one more time. Disagreeing with people does not imply intent to annoy or cause harm in any way. I have never had this intent, and I never will. So I take extreme issue with your accusation of malice where none exists.

The funny part is this is all based on a technicality, I already said above I do not endorse permanent bans.

(another edit: Fixed "his" to "the")

[Zehira]

"take all the money out of my dbox" thread

Couldn't agree more, Mr White Knight. XD

[Alhanelem]

Couldn't agree more, Mr White Knight. XD
Come now, if you watched my streams (just the other day in fact) you'd know how salty I am about SE's failiure to address abuse in The Feast in FFXIV.

I quit White Knight as my main job years ago!

[Zehira]

Okay, this is off-topic which is good because it sounds like life threatening.

Anyway, you mean there are bots in a PvP arena? Yes, you are right. It is exactly why we don't play the PvP. SE can't fix it for sure.

[Zehira]

I think we need a chat thread like Japanese posters have one for a long time.

[Alhanelem]

Okay, this is off-topic which is good because it sounds like life threatening.

Anyway, you mean there are bots in a PvP arena? Yes, you are right. It is exactly why we don't play the PvP. SE can't fix it for sure.

No, it's not bots. It's the relatively low population making the queue easy to manipulate- people intentionally throw games if they get someone they don't like on their team, and the various other sorts of things you can do when you know who's playing.

Fair enough, it seems odd that we never did a thing like that. The XIV forums has had that one "tales from the duty finder" thread that's gone on thousands of pages of people ranting about stupid things happening in dungeons and stuff. :p

[Zehira]

Indeed, I haven't read the FFXIV forums for years so I just did. That's quite a lot of pages in one thread. People like to [beep] about everything right there.

However, this forums is different. We need to be more confident with the community team. Can't be their fault if the dev team said no if you know what I mean. :)

[GlobalVariable]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I am responding 100% in good faith. You just happen to disagree with my opinion. That's fine, but to imply malice on my part is absolutely wrong and disingenuous.

Was not about us disagreeing - for the most part we even agree on a lot, which confused me why you kept repeating and causing me to try and explain because maybe you just didn't get why I felt it wasn't right that uninvolved 3rd parties presume -anything-

You are dismissive of experiences other than your own and tell me I brought nothing to the conversation. I'm not the one being disingenuous here.

[Alhanelem]

for the most part we even agree on a lot, which confused me why you kept repeating and causing me to try and explainI mean, if you had the impression that we understood each other, that's usually where a discussion ends. :)



You are dismissive of experiences other than your ownUntrue. I told you what my experience was and you kept telling me yours was something else while simultaneously making me feel like my experiences were "wrong." Thus, as I said before, all I can tell you is what my experience is. It's entirely possible for you to do the same kind of thing as me for the same amount of time and have a different experience. What I'm telling you now is that doesn't render the lessons I took from my experiences invalid. I completely believe you when you say you had XYZ experience.

[GlobalVariable]

I mean, if you had the impression that we understood each other, that's usually where a discussion ends.
Which is why when you continue to re-state your experience after I explain that the part you took out of context I presume we did not reach understanding.


Untrue. I told you what my experience was and you kept telling me yours was something else while simultaneously making me feel like my experiences were "wrong."

I literally started with simply saying "it happens" citing examples where people I knew personally have been perma-banned over small potatoes after people said it doesn't happen. You took it a whole different direction because of one comment I gave about uninvolved peopel making judgements on who deserves what - I think we have both spent to much time explaining what we are not saying. Which is a sign we shouldn't be interacting with each other further.

[Alhanelem]

I literally started with simply saying "it happens" citing examples where people I knew personally have been perma-banned over small potatoes The issue is just that different people (and SE, and other companies) have different ideas of what is "small potatoes" and what isn't.




I think we have both spent to much time explaining what we are not saying. Which is a sign we shouldn't be interacting with each other further. Having said that, I will defer to your j udgement. But just because it was difficult for us to communicate here doesn't mean we can't have a civil discussion about anything else, so I hope you're only referring to this conversation.

[GlobalVariable]

The issue is just that different people (and SE, and other companies) have different ideas of what is "small potatoes" and what isn't.
Yes, we touched on that before, where I only refereed to it as being a debatable subject.


I hope you're only referring to this conversation.
Yes, correct.

[Pixela]

My biggest gripe with this two strikes and you're out system is there is almost no judgement in it, if you have one strike and do something thta would give you another you're account is destroyed. Even if the first strike was 17 years ago for killing a fish bot.

Even youtube deletes strikes after 6 months if you're good.

It makes zero business sense to have a system made to get rid of long standing paying customers over minutia, do away with permanent records unless the issue was serious.

[Alhanelem]

My biggest gripe with this two strikes and you're out system is there is almost no judgement in it, if you have one strike and do something thta would give you another you're account is destroyed. Even if the first strike was 17 years ago for killing a fish bot.

Even youtube deletes strikes after 6 months if you're good.

It makes zero business sense to have a system made to get rid of long standing paying customers over minutia, do away with permanent records unless the issue was serious.
I wouldn't complain if -ahem- most of the permanent bans on both the XI and XIV forums were forgiven. :p

[Cesil]

I don't think you understand how it works.

You can get a ban from saying a bad word in yell, you can get a ban for annoying someone like talking their mob if they are AOE killing (I know people who got a temp ban for pulling a monster from an AOE farmer - "harassment"), you can get a ban from MPK a bot or RMT, you can get a ban for joining their party selling job points and warping them, you can get a ban from being lewd in say when you were 14. You can get a ban from other things than cheating and considering many of us were teenagers when this game came out and were a lot more stupid back then it's unfair to have a one strike and you're out policy that lasts 20+ years.

Especially since they don't have a very good appeal system.

This. I got a warning for saying "hell" in say in Port jeuno back in 2004. They told me I had my first "warning" for cursing. I was really surprised at that.

I wasnt even using it towards anyone. It was a mistell when my friends were talking about religion. They asked where I'd end up lol. Yup, totally offensive. /s

They do need to do away with this system imo.

[Haldarn]

I wasnt even using it towards anyone.

I didn't even know it was a curse word!

[Tsukihika]

Outright removal of this system would just escalate to someone ruining your day by calling you names via tell or even on public chat. Since there would be no consequences whatsoever to fear anymore. Human beings are not that honest, that we should weaponize them further. Even these cyber bullies are in many cases merely human beings venting their own frustration on some unfortunate victim that just happens to be there. Anyone that has personal experience with such cases can surely relate and understands why this kind of strict system is important to hopefully keep cyber-bullying at bay. Humans will think twice before doing bad things, as there will be strict consequences for their actions.

Leaving all the blatant botting, speed/pos hacking and other third party tool usage aside in this context. We as players need this system in place, even if it might be a little strict and lack proper judgement system, in order to keep the community honest. Removing it would make ffxi completely lawless zone, where people can socially and mentally attack each other, and suffer no consequences for it.

[Pixela]

Unless you did something really really bad then it should not be a thing, a warning should be automatically deleted after 6 months.

I've had people say awful things to me, who cares. Just blist them or have fun arguing for 10 minutes.

We have a system in place here where someone could of said or done something 17 years ago when they were 14 and if they do anything at all today their account would be banned, this isn't a warning system. It's totally unfair.

[Tsukihika]

I do agree that the system can be quite unfairly strict and doesn't always seem to judge cases properly, as many players have posted here as evidence.

What's important to understand though, is that not every person is mentally built to handle verbal abuse and bullying. Some people are extremely sensitive to such things and have great difficulties when it comes to handling any kind of conflict. In some extreme cases it may even deal to severe anxiety attacks. And that is certainly not their fault and nobody can blame them for being bothered by such abuse.

[Pixela]

This isn't about bullying, it's about the foundation of the system.

You can warn someone and then ban their account on the 2nd action, the points is that the warning should not last for the entire life of the game.

[Leny]

Blacklists exist. No one can "bully" you via chat. It is impossible.

All text based transgressions should be penalty free regardless. As as system already exists to eliminate it.

If a person uses mules to negate the system, they've burned their "warning" by using more than one character and that would be bannable.

[Alhanelem]

Blacklists exist. No one can "bully" you via chat. It is impossible.

All text based transgressions should be penalty free regardless. As as system already exists to eliminate it.

If a person uses mules to negate the system, they've burned their "warning" by using more than one character and that would be bannable.
The existence of the blacklist is not an excuse to do type or do that break the rules / harass others, just the same as the existence of a curse filter on forums and chats is not an excuse to curse.

The fact that self-help resolutions are available does not make it suddenly okay for others to break the rules. Generally though, if you're being harassed, a GM will tell you to use the blacklist. But if they continue to find other ways to harass you after blacklisting them, then they will usually take action.

[Tsukihika]

Nevertheless, placing such timer on this ban system would simply allow people to wait it out after getting their first warning, and resume their illegal activities after that waiting period. There's nothing to fear if all they would get is gentle slap on wrist, and that is assuming they get caught breaking rules to begin with. This could simply lead to players being increasingly reckless and really testing the limits of what they can or cannot do in the game. And simply take a break from the game if they ever end up getting such warning, only to resume right after this period ends.

Besides, it's not like you cannot continue playing the game after getting banned due to punishment for breaking mutually agreed rules (user agreement and terms of service). One can simply purchase and create new account, and start anew. Hopefully wiser the second time. The various QoL improvements over years have even made this much easier than what it used to be.

[Coffeegood]

We are wasting money I can conclude from all the evidence. They should just do away with NA access since they leave 2 months now of new odyssey content bugs un-fixed it shows you what your $13+ per month will buy you from Square Enix's super ffxi dev team. Then nobody would be complaining about being treated unfair because you would know concretely THEY DON'T CARE what u think instead of observing the ongoing evidence like a logical being and coming up with the same conclusion.
(Now to the topic at hand) Banning for language when they have npc dialogue too that says damn and hell in it already is obsurd too I agree ban's should only exist if you are impeding someone in game from playing it properly by breaking rules, ie. pos hacking, botting profusely, harassment via many ways even ways that havn't been invented yet, and more.

[Alhanelem]

Nevertheless, placing such timer on this ban system would simply allow people to wait it out after getting their first warning, and resume their illegal activities after that waiting period. There's nothing to fear if all they would get is gentle slap on wrist, and that is assuming they get caught breaking rules to begin with. This could simply lead to players being increasingly reckless and really testing the limits of what they can or cannot do in the game. And simply take a break from the game if they ever end up getting such warning, only to resume right after this period ends.
.Now I'm not saying I agree with the notion that anything needs to be changed here, but let's be honest, do you know any unscrupulous mischief makers that could get in trouble for doing something bad, wait out the 1 year or whatever cooldown to get their strikes removed behaving like an angel, and then start causing trouble again right after it wears off on cue?

For most people, you either reform after the first penalty, or you keep offending. you don't reform temporarily until your penalty wears off.

[Mike]

you can get a ban for joining their party selling job points and warping them

IMHO, this should be rewarded and not penalized.

[Mike]

If you get 2 temp bans then that = full perma ban.

This is just not true. I've been temp banned, 72 hours, for harrassing RMTs three times over the years and one for accusations of MPK'ing by an idiot griefing colonization reives back in the day for fighting chapulis near his 24/7 afk chars inside the reive. I also had a fifth ban for putting "Koga, no thanks" in by bazaar message back in the day on Ifrit.

[Alhanelem]

I also had a fifth ban for putting "Koga, no thanks" in by bazaar message back in the day on Ifrit. This seems odd. What's the context behind this?

But I think the lesson you need to learn is other people engaging in bad behavior is not an excuse to subject them to bad behavior of your own. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Pixela]

This is just not true. I've been temp banned, 72 hours, for harrassing RMTs three times over the years and one for accusations of MPK'ing by an idiot griefing colonization reives back in the day for fighting chapulis near his 24/7 afk chars inside the reive. I also had a fifth ban for putting "Koga, no thanks" in by bazaar message back in the day on Ifrit.

If this is true it's not the norm, I've known a lot of people that were banned after a second offense and they were not serious due to being in the HNM scene and also the same rules apply to XIV.

[Zehira]

Still paranoid about getting banned? I feel bad but to each their own. :)

I remember there is a cooldown for the penalty. I am not sure if it is still the same system (never met any GM in the game before... still zero GM calls).

SE picks favorites, it's like I am being reported in FFXIV and have a GM to look at me: "Hmm.... Yeah I have heard that person before."