Mog Lazy Susan™

[DerianX]

Would it be possible to implement a job-linked storage option where the contents of that storage section change when the player changes jobs?

ie: Put Chango, Warrior's Beads, Agoge gear, etc. in "Mog Lazy Susan™ - WAR". Put Death Penalty, Rostam, Lanun gear, etc. in "Mog Lazy Susan™ - COR", and so on. Then only have that equipment accessible (and therefore only loaded) while the player is on the associated job.

If implementation is feasible it could potentially add a great deal of additional storage without increasing the load times.

SquareEnix could even incentivize it and charge a small fee for each job (say 25¢~50¢).

* I originally posted this idea as a reply to another thread which quickly got buried and I hoped to get some feedback and/or promote ideas from others in a similar vein.

[Alhanelem]

I've been saying for a while they should just rip off the armory chest in FFXI and have gear slot-specific storage areas. Would be simpler and would still help.

[Trishula]

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/56550


Quote Originally Posted by larrymc View Post
Will we get new storage options (Wardrobe 5 & 6), or the possibility to equip gear stored in mog case, sack, or satchel?

Fujito: Systematically, this is possible to add additional Mog Wardrobes. However, doing this will require additional data communication to occur; therefore it would be impossible to do. We're currently looking into ways to expand the amount of storage; however, we cannot answer when this would be possible at the moment.

[Zekander]

I would be perfectly happy if they took away one of the permanent mog wardrobes and turned it into a conditional job wardrobe as suggested. This would eliminate the need for extra bandwidth while still providing us with a great deal more extra space.

[Alhanelem]

The other thing that complicates this is non-gear specific stuff. If an item is in one "lazy suzan" space then you'd need multiples of that item for other jobs, or you'd have to constantly move it around thus kind of negating the benefit.

[Zekander]

A) The first three wardrobes would still be available for multi-job items.
and
B) Even if you did go out and collect duplicate items for certain jobs, I cannot possibly imagine that you would get 60+ items for each job to fill every additional wardrobe. (And even if you did, that would just give people a reason to redo old content, adding longevity to the game.)

[Alhanelem]

A) The first three wardrobes would still be available for multi-job items.
and
B) Even if you did go out and collect duplicate items for certain jobs, I cannot possibly imagine that you would get 60+ items for each job to fill every additional wardrobe. (And even if you did, that would just give people a reason to redo old content, adding longevity to the game.)
Realistically we aren't going to get any kind of storage space that can store more than 80 things, even if it's designed differently the way you describe. Look at other storage systems wh ich are limited by other things- the cap on the number of things that can be put in the game's "make a decision" interface used by the storage slip system and the event item storage and other things. Storage slips can only have so many bits for identifying owned items which is why there are so many of them.

I mean really, be realistic. They basically can't devleop entirely new game systems at this point- Every new thing that's come out has leveraged or been based upon something that already exists.

[Zekander]

My understanding of the situation (and I may be wrong about this) is that additional mog wardrobes cannot/will not be added because of the already significant load times for inventory space. Also, due to fundamental limitations of the game programming, they cannot ever add an inventory space with more then 80 slots.

The suggestion as I understand it bypasses both of these limitations (or at least mitigates the first). The 'Mog lazy susan' would not be a giant wardrobe that only holds job specific equipment, instead it is a subgroup of up to 22 separate inventory spaces, only one of which is ever loaded at any given time, and none of which need to exceed 80 slots (even that is probably more then necessary for most people). This means that the only extra communication that needs to be sent is a flag telling the server what job you are on (which I can only imagine is sent anyway every time you zone) so that it can load the appropriate job specific wardrobe.

I suggested that, if they are unable/unwilling to add even one additional wardrobe space for this system, that they replace the existing Mog Wardrobe 4 with this system, on the premise that at this point most players have at least 10 items that are exclusive to a single job and likely that number is closer to 20 or more (I personally have at least 20 items that are exclusive to RDM, but my other jobs have less). Based on this assumption anyone with 5 or more jobs would have over 80 different items that are exclusive to only a single job and that even with the loss of wardrobe 4 they would still come out ahead on inventory space. And that anyone with 4 or fewer jobs probably doesn't even need that extra space anyway.

I think this is very realistic suggestion given that the system is obviously capable of discriminating when and if to load a specific inventory space. Mog Safes only load when accessed from a moogle, Storage only even loads when you are in your mog house, and Mog Wardrobes were specifically coded to load first. And even a drastic increase in storage spaces would be a pretty negligible amount of extra data server side. So it seems to me that they should be able to implement this kind of system with the tools that they already have, the only question is if they are willing to spend the resources (time) to do it.

[Zekander]

Sorry for that lengthy post, I was having trouble understanding your argument, had to reread a couple times.

tldr; It should be doable, basically would be a 'Storage' inventory space that checks what job you are on rather then what zone you are in. But adding it could be very time consuming, and thereby cost actual content updates.

[Alhanelem]

My understanding of the situation (and I may be wrong about this) is that additional mog wardrobes cannot/will not be added because of the already significant load times for inventory space. Also, due to fundamental limitations of the game programming, they cannot ever add an inventory space with more then 80 slots.

The suggestion as I understand it bypasses both of these limitations (or at least mitigates the first). The 'Mog lazy susan' would not be a giant wardrobe that only holds job specific equipment, instead it is a subgroup of up to 22 separate inventory spaces, only one of which is ever loaded at any given time, and none of which need to exceed 80 slots (even that is probably more then necessary for most people). This means that the only extra communication that needs to be sent is a flag telling the server what job you are on (which I can only imagine is sent anyway every time you zone) so that it can load the appropriate job specific wardrobe.

I suggested that, if they are unable/unwilling to add even one additional wardrobe space for this system, that they replace the existing Mog Wardrobe 4 with this system, on the premise that at this point most players have at least 10 items that are exclusive to a single job and likely that number is closer to 20 or more (I personally have at least 20 items that are exclusive to RDM, but my other jobs have less). Based on this assumption anyone with 5 or more jobs would have over 80 different items that are exclusive to only a single job and that even with the loss of wardrobe 4 they would still come out ahead on inventory space. And that anyone with 4 or fewer jobs probably doesn't even need that extra space anyway.

I think this is very realistic suggestion given that the system is obviously capable of discriminating when and if to load a specific inventory space. Mog Safes only load when accessed from a moogle, Storage only even loads when you are in your mog house, and Mog Wardrobes were specifically coded to load first. And even a drastic increase in storage spaces would be a pretty negligible amount of extra data server side. So it seems to me that they should be able to implement this kind of system with the tools that they already have, the only question is if they are willing to spend the resources (time) to do it.
The gist is the amount of data transfer involved, it's not JUST about the loading of the lists. There is still additional data tnasfer from checking jobs, server processing of the character data (which can be significantly larger with this idea), then sending the correctr info back. It isn't as much as just seperate inventories but it is still an addition. The game is basically locked into transferring packets at a certain size and speed. An MMO today would not require anywhere near the amount of time that FFXI requires to do this job, which is why they needed to invent all kinds of workarounds to give us more space. Ultimately when tehse systems were first designed, the original devs didn't expect everyone (or even most people) to level and gear up every single job- it was a particularly long time investment back in the day to do so. And the inventory systems were designed with that notion in mind. This idea potentially increases the size of the character data significantly, even if it isn't sending all of that information to you. Keep in mind the job checks arent just going to happen when you change jobs as well- they need to happen with every area change- when you change areas you basically leave one server node and move to another. The amount of data to transfer, not just the load time for that data, is a factor in why they don't just keep adding inventory.

[Zekander]

It seems like we are saying the same thing and coming to different conclusions. We both stated that job data is already being transferred on zone. It would seem like they ought to be able to reference this preexisting data in an inventory load function (either a completely new one, or one replacing an already existing inventory space). Everything else should be server side, the data transfer should remain the same (if replacing an existing inventory space).

Also, they made Maat's Cap, obviously they were expecting that at least some people would level all available jobs.

[Alhanelem]

It seems like we are saying the same thing and coming to different conclusions. We both stated that job data is already being transferred on zone. It would seem like they ought to be able to reference this preexisting data in an inventory load function (either a completely new one, or one replacing an already existing inventory space). Everything else should be server side, the data transfer should remain the same (if replacing an existing inventory space).

Also, they made Maat's Cap, obviously they were expecting that at least some people would level all available jobs.I just don't think you realize what they can and can't do. They can't, for example, rewrite the network code to modern standards and allow for more/faster data transfer. All that back end sphagetti stuff is not something they have a lot of ability to change. This is why all the new content and features are based on/leverage existing features in different ways. Your proposal would almost certainly require some redevelopment that in my partially educated partially guessing opinion, might not be possible. Like I want them to just copy FFXIV's armory chest. But there is no way that would happen because it would need to be largely developed from scratch. Similarly, again I'm partially guessing, partially have an idea of how things work, but I think your idea wouldn't pass muster due to development limitations. (But in no way do I want to discourage brainstorming here- even if an idea might not be workable, it may lead to another one that is)

In your case, the data transfer isn't the same because there are more parameters at work. First on the server side, there is more data, and thus the size of your character data as a whole is larger, even if not all of it is being accessed at once (which it generally isn't). Now you basically need either an entirely new data structure (a two dimensional array with job on one side and list of items on the other) or 22 copies of the original existing data structure and a paramater specifying which one to use. the latter by itself is (admittely small but still a thing) additional data that needs to be communicated on every area change.




Also, they made Maat's Cap, obviously they were expecting that at least some people would level all available jobs. Well yes, they likely knew someone would notice the incredible grind and go "Challenge accepted." But very few people actually did this for a very long time. It definitely wasn't something the average player did. And they very likely assumed that even those players wouldn't keep gear at the ready for all jobs at all times (and some of it can overlap).

[Zekander]

True, I do not know what is required data communication and what can be left out. If simply the existence of the additional storage space needs to be added to the required character data, then yes that would probably exceed the data limit. I was assuming that they would all be stored server side and only the one required for your current job would be added to the character data (and as suggested in place of the current wardrobe 4).

A pretty big selling point of FFXI, vs just about any other MMO is the ability to level and gear as many different jobs as you want to on a single character. At least it was when it first came out. I would think that they would want to what they could to help preserve this feature, but I have already admitted that a suggestion like this might require a significant amount of time to create and implement.

[Alhanelem]

True, I do not know what is required data communication and what can be left out. If simply the existence of the additional storage space needs to be added to the required character data, then yes that would probably exceed the data limit. I was assuming that they would all be stored server side and only the one required for your current job would be added to the character data (and as suggested in place of the current wardrobe 4).

A pretty big selling point of FFXI, vs just about any other MMO is the ability to level and gear as many different jobs as you want to on a single character. At least it was when it first came out. I would think that they would want to what they could to help preserve this feature, but I have already admitted that a suggestion like this might require a significant amount of time to create and implement.
In no way am I shooting you down, more i'm saying "keep your expectations low." lol They are well aware of this problem and they've implied they're exploring options on it, but it's probably going to be a while.

[DerianX]

Glad to see some constructive discussion about this. Would love to see the opinion of someone on the development team but with the unfortunate situation in the real world I don't expect anything to be addressed in Vana'Diel anytime soon.

[Neogon]

It would actually be pretty cool to have.


I've been saying for a while they should just rip off the armory chest in FFXI and have gear slot-specific storage areas. Would be simpler and would still help.

I recently returned from FFXIV to FFXI, and I've to say no, no, no.... the only thing worse than FFXIV's armory chest is BDO's inventory system.

Sure, you get 35 item slots per gear category and 13 different categories for a potential total of 455 to fill up, but you only get 35 item slots per category and there's no way to change it. Ex., if you have all 35 body slots used but no subweapon slots being used (which is a very, very real situation since subweapon is used exclusively and only for shields and secondary crafting/gathering tools), there is no way whatsoever to leverage subweapon slots for additional body slots - you are stuck at a hard-limit of 50 slots per category. That is inefficient and wasteful both.