December incoming PLD changes are not useful

[Dieth]

PLD already has an AOE cure, sub bluemage and use Healing Breeze.

A new ability to AoE cure every 5 minutes is not going to assist us much other than a hate generator once every 5 minutes if we can pop an AoE Cure IV off.

Banishga... useless, I need an AoE spell that does not wake the monsters. (See sub bluemage, Geist Wall, Sound Blast, Sheep Song, Soporific.....)

Fix Atonement the damage cap on this WS is from the lv75 era. My laughable WS does 1547 damage, my DRK friend single hits for MORE than 1500+ and does WS for 56,000, that closes a 99,999 skill chain. Atonement (even if i took it to R15 and it's +100 enmity) just doesn't compete with that. Atonement used to be akin to a second provoke, now it's just "Oooh look the PLD did his WS how cute!" Make Atonement NOT participate in SC like Sanguine Blade so what we can use it w/o screwing our parties SC/MB setup.

Look at reducing the cool downs on Sentinel/Rampart/Palisade

Look at making it so PLD and RUN can have a higher enmity cap than other players, which slowly edges back down to player cap forcing us to maintain it.

The current update suggested does not sound like anyone put thought into or actually plays the game.

[Mikah]

The current update suggested does not sound like anyone put thought into or actually plays the game.

It's not that it sounds that way, it IS that way. They didn't. They don't. And they don't have a clue.

[Gwydion]

SE,
Please consider lowering the recast of Reprisal to match (or beat Foil) so that PLD can build self-enmity, similar to how RUN does so. Another idea would be to make Atonement, a self-targeting weaponskill (of any form). Thank you.

[Voidstorm]

Does this mean banish spells will finally get an update to be something other than trash? Because at present, they are horrible for the MP cost and a waste of 3+ seconds not doing anything else.
Does it mean we'll be seeing the rest of the banish spell line be released finally? No Banish IV, V, or VI. No Banishga III, or Banishja.

I honestly feel bad for Paladins.

[Alhanelem]

WHM was supposedly going to get Banish IV on the road to 99 (Banish III is only lv65...) but that never happened. Apparently WHM would be too powerful to have a source of damage that would still have been inferior at lv75 at level 99.

[Voidstorm]

I remember leveling WHM on a mule. Cast banish, dealt like 5 dmg, cast stone, 1shot'd the enemy.
level'd as WHM/SCH once I could dark arts.

Heck, RDM & SCH both have divine skill but zero divine spells. It's really embarasing to know that's actually a thing.

[Alhanelem]

I remember leveling WHM on a mule. Cast banish, dealt like 5 dmg, cast stone, 1shot'd the enemy.
level'd as WHM/SCH once I could dark arts.

Heck, RDM & SCH both have divine skill but zero divine spells. It's really embarasing to know that's actually a thing.
I mean in this case, that was a concious decision to allow players to cast those spells they would probably get from a sub with red mage with better than subjob level skill. (Of course you could make the argument that they should just have had those spells natively to begin with but I'm sure it was a concious decision that you would only have those spells with particular subs.)

For WHM, I really have no idea what they were thinking. As noted, it wasn't going to break anything to give them a slightly less crappy light-element damage spell that still pales in comparison to nukes from even the previous tier; but there was certainly no technical reason why we couldn't have it. It's in the game, it even has an MP cost set, and it is cast by many monsters. Yet they wouldn't give it to the job. I can only guess that they figured Cure VI could be used for damage while Banish would be used for its additional effect- but that only works on undead and not on dark based non-undead monsters like demons, and you can't cast the AoE cures on enemies.

Idk... I guess the point is I don't even think SE knows why they do things sometimes lol.

[Czeph]

PLD already has an AOE cure, sub bluemage and use Healing Breeze.

A new ability to AoE cure every 5 minutes is not going to assist us much other than a hate generator once every 5 minutes if we can pop an AoE Cure IV off.

Banishga... useless, I need an AoE spell that does not wake the monsters. (See sub bluemage, Geist Wall, Sound Blast, Sheep Song, Soporific.....)

Fix Atonement the damage cap on this WS is from the lv75 era. My laughable WS does 1547 damage, my DRK friend single hits for MORE than 1500+ and does WS for 56,000, that closes a 99,999 skill chain. Atonement (even if i took it to R15 and it's +100 enmity) just doesn't compete with that. Atonement used to be akin to a second provoke, now it's just "Oooh look the PLD did his WS how cute!" Make Atonement NOT participate in SC like Sanguine Blade so what we can use it w/o screwing our parties SC/MB setup.

Look at reducing the cool downs on Sentinel/Rampart/Palisade

Look at making it so PLD and RUN can have a higher enmity cap than other players, which slowly edges back down to player cap forcing us to maintain it.

The current update suggested does not sound like anyone put thought into or actually plays the game.

I'd suggest 3 minutes for rampart/sentinel/palisade.

I'd suggest 10-15k before equipment is factored in for atonement.

reprisal's fine as is imo, but an additional self target spell that can be cast over and over would be nice.

perhaps adding strong (and seperate to normal evasion down) to shield bash would be a good idea? and a shorter timer maybe?

also a 3 minute recast on fealty and chivalry would be a nice improvement?

first post I've made in a while, but, pld has been my main since 2003/4, and it needs some major attention.

[Seish]

PLD has had a lot of attention and they are doing fine. The fact they get a curaga spell finally was much needed and honestly, that was way overdue. But as they've said before in any discussion regarding PLD in the reply to the PLD manifesto, that they will not enhance PLD to the point the job will be boring or overpowered. They were very clear about this and at one time, were even reluctant in even caving this much in. PLD is by far one of the most useful jobs in the game. Just because PLD doesn't get what you want make it useless. Give it more, the job would be too boring.

SE's forum representative said the following in page 7 of that mainfesto:

We are aware that paladins are having a difficult time when damage dealers push the limits of their abilities in battle and we plan on making adjustments so that it’s easier for paladins to grab the focus of a target. However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present, it will be necessary to take into account the proper enmity balance between every role in party situations. Not only thieves, but magic and songs amongst other things are there to assist in taming enmity, so it would be beneficial to utilize those tools as well.

In regards to increasing the enmity for paladin’s cures, we are currently looking into it.

Since paladin would pretty much be able to do anything if we increase both its defense and attack, we will not be doing this. (A paladin’s weapon skill damage output isn’t low by any means.)

[Seish]

For anyone that wants to review this subject more, visit the following:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12039-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-Job-Adjustments-Manifesto-Paladin?highlight=PLD+manifesto

[SubDragon]

Does this mean banish spells will finally get an update to be something other than trash? Because at present, they are horrible for the MP cost and a waste of 3+ seconds not doing anything else.

Banish was never about doing damage.
Banish reduces the special resistances for physical attack types on Undead so your physical damage of types like slashing do more and lasts for increasing time the higher up the level of Banish you cast.
It was never "Trash" but it sounds like you simply lacked the understanding of how the spell was designed to be used and special resistance system on mob families and not on the magic itself.

[Voidstorm]

It did similar damage and at a similar cost as elemental magic before they stopped adding more banish spells and changed the formulas for elemental magics.

[Alhanelem]

It did similar damage and at a similar cost as elemental magic before they stopped adding more banish spells and changed the formulas for elemental magics.


The banish line is roughly similar to the stone line (pre-rebalance) vs their intended target of undead, but cost much more MP despite their crippled effectivness outside of that monster family.

[Voidstorm]

It wasn't terribly more MP though. You'd be dealing Stone damage for Aero MP. As for crippled effectiveness; no debuff was all. It still dealt the same damage regardless of the target.
Now that it has been abandoned for forever and a day; it deals less damage than stone and costs more than thunder.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

I recognize many people don't read every post or every reply to a topic or a thread.

This however was what i left as a recommendation in the MAY 2019 ffxi digest concerning PLD.

Pld > Reduce reuse timers of Sentinel to 180 seconds, Rempart to 120 seconds, Palisade to 120 seconds. Create new divine magic Area of Effect spells: Banishra recast 30 seconds, Banishra II recast 30 seconds, Banishra III recast 45 seconds, Holyra recast 45 seconds, Holyra II recast 60 seconds, Flashra recast 45 seconds, Reposera base duration 15 seconds recast 60 seconds all of which would have +additional enmity properties to them. Reduce reuse timer of Shield Bash to base 60 seconds. Reduce recast timer of Flash to base 30 seconds. Reduce recast timer of Reprisal to base 120 seconds + increase duration to base 90 seconds. Create new spell Crusade II: Duration 900 seconds, Cost 50 MP, Recast 30 seconds.

I chose -ra spell class for the suggested pld aoe divine spells because it would be a 10' {10 yalm} area from the casting character same as the geomancer specific -ra spell class elemental magics.

[Czeph]

PLD has had a lot of attention and they are doing fine. The fact they get a curaga spell finally was much needed and honestly, that was way overdue. But as they've said before in any discussion regarding PLD in the reply to the PLD manifesto, that they will not enhance PLD to the point the job will be boring or overpowered. They were very clear about this and at one time, were even reluctant in even caving this much in. PLD is by far one of the most useful jobs in the game. Just because PLD doesn't get what you want make it useless. Give it more, the job would be too boring.

SE's forum representative said the following in page 7 of that mainfesto:

We are aware that paladins are having a difficult time when damage dealers push the limits of their abilities in battle and we plan on making adjustments so that it’s easier for paladins to grab the focus of a target. However, since it would quickly become boring and lack any sense of challenge if party members were able to fight without fear of enmity as long as a paladin is present, it will be necessary to take into account the proper enmity balance between every role in party situations. Not only thieves, but magic and songs amongst other things are there to assist in taming enmity, so it would be beneficial to utilize those tools as well.

In regards to increasing the enmity for paladin’s cures, we are currently looking into it.

Since paladin would pretty much be able to do anything if we increase both its defense and attack, we will not be doing this. (A paladin’s weapon skill damage output isn’t low by any means.)

I thought my atonement suggestion was reasonable in that it brings atonement damage nearer to savage blade damage, and savage blade would still be stronger for pure damage.

[Pixela]

The biggest problem with pld is they still haven't added the emnity changes to lower tier 99 monsters. Trying to play PLD on unity NMs for instance is a joke, it's almost impossible to keep aggro.

[Alhanelem]

It wasn't terribly more MP though. You'd be dealing Stone damage for Aero MP. As for crippled effectiveness; no debuff was all. It still dealt the same damage regardless of the target.
Now that it has been abandoned for forever and a day; it deals less damage than stone and costs more than thunder.Banish is 50% more effective vs. undead, on top of the debuff. There is a direct multiplier to the damage dealt if the target is undead.

[Beastorizer]

I am no PLD at this time.....But....

...This is becoming a reoccurring thing among jobs......

[Seish]

I recognize many people don't read every post or every reply to a topic or a thread.

This however was what i left as a recommendation in the MAY 2019 ffxi digest concerning PLD.

Pld > Reduce reuse timers of Sentinel to 180 seconds, Rempart to 120 seconds, Palisade to 120 seconds. Create new divine magic Area of Effect spells: Banishra recast 30 seconds, Banishra II recast 30 seconds, Banishra III recast 45 seconds, Holyra recast 45 seconds, Holyra II recast 60 seconds, Flashra recast 45 seconds, Reposera base duration 15 seconds recast 60 seconds all of which would have +additional enmity properties to them. Reduce reuse timer of Shield Bash to base 60 seconds. Reduce recast timer of Flash to base 30 seconds. Reduce recast timer of Reprisal to base 120 seconds + increase duration to base 90 seconds. Create new spell Crusade II: Duration 900 seconds, Cost 50 MP, Recast 30 seconds.

I chose -ra spell class for the suggested pld aoe divine spells because it would be a 10' {10 yalm} area from the casting character same as the geomancer specific -ra spell class elemental magics.

If you read my posts in this thread, you'd have seen why they are reluctant to give you want you want.

[Seish]

I thought my atonement suggestion was reasonable in that it brings atonement damage nearer to savage blade damage, and savage blade would still be stronger for pure damage.

They do not think the DMG of PLD is low considering the dmg they produce with respect to them being a tank job.

[Seish]

For conveneince sake, I will quote from page one SE's detailed reply from that Manifesto:


Howdy!

Sorry to make all of you paladins wait! While this might not cover every single question and request we have seen, the below is a hefty portion of responses toward your feedback.



We would like the enmity cap to be raised.

When considering the nature of the game, we would like to leave the enmity cap as it is currently and focus instead on specific adjustments for each job.



Add an ability that has a high amount of enmity like Provoke.

We are currently looking into adjustments that will make it possible for paladins to up the amount of enmity they gain in situations where party members’ enmity is steadily rising due to high damage output. However, as was shown in the concept, instead of an ability like Provoke that gives a spike in enmity, we are focusing more on the direction of adding elements that will allow of enmity gain as a part of defense and being able to maintain a high amount of enmity that has been accumulated.



Add an ability like in Ballista where you can constantly hold a target’s attention for a set period of time.

This seems like it would be a good stat to be granted during Invincible. We will look into it.



It’s really rough trying to maintain the focus of enemies that have enmity reset abilities. Do you have anything planned for this?

Though we haven’t decided on the specific effects and implementation method, we will be preparing some method to address this.



Add an ability that absorbs a party/alliance member’s enmity.

Though it doesn’t absorb enmity directly, Cover has an effect that is very close.



Reduce the recast timer on Shield Bash.

When we make adjustments to the merit point system we will look into making changes to the recast timer when applying merit points to Shield Bash.



Increase the activation rate of shield blocks.

In the next version update, we are planning to add an ability that will temporarily increase the activation of shield blocks as well as make is so no enmity is lost.



Are you planning any kind of specialized mode change for shield defense?

While it will require you to be under the effect of an ability, we are thinking of making a new ability similar to what you described that focuses on raising the defensive stats of your shield.



We would like an increase in enmity effect when our shields activate.

The concern here is that stats for shields with high block rates (like Ochain) would become too high. Since we would have to make balance adjustments such as raising the shield activation rate on other shields, we are currently not thinking about this.



Make it possible to use Cover on alliance members as well.

Since Cover was designed to only function with party members, it would be necessary to carefully look into the balance of battles if we expanded it to cover alliance members, so it is not something we can change without a lot of testing. This is same way we approach all abilities and spells for jobs.



When using Cover, we would like the offset enmity to be given to the paladin.

Thief’s Trick Attack ability already features a similar effect, so we’d rather they be used in this type of situation.



Add an ability that makes it so an enemy’s AoE attack does not affect other party members when the paladin is the main target.

While we will not be making it so AoE attacks are totally avoidable, we are looking into making it so that the effect of Sentinel can be spread to party members for a period of time to protect them.



Add an enmity bonus to Cure.

We’d like to look into if we could add something to merit points that would be like an enmity boosting version of Tranquil Heart.



I’m pretty sure that Fencer should be for paladin…

Paladin has a high amount of defense, so we are not thinking about adding a high amount of attack power on top of their defense currently.

Their plan for PLD is very clear when this was posted. And it seems they won't budge giving anything remote to what you all are asking for, regardless how many people beg for it because of possible balancing issues. I think it's reasonable too. And at least here, they give the community a detailed response why they wont. Whereas in BST adjustments, however, they are very quiet.

[camaroz]

Honestly you have what it takes to hold enmity in XIV, (Iron Will PLD Defiance WAR) just copy it over lol, there is a metric ton of copying mobs, moves etc from XI to XIV so it can't be that hard. Literally as soon as the designated tank puts the move on unless said tank dies it does not move off of the tank no matter what.

[Kirth]

Again, it feels like the devs have missed the mark by a mile. I'll give the new additions a shot once they're out, but my gut is telling me these aren't the changes that will make up for PLDs shortcomings. Like many have mentioned here and on other forums, PLD needs something that is a counterpart to Foil. I think that could have been accomplished by altering Reprisal to have a much improved volatile and cumulative enmity value. Even if it maintained its current cooldown, with enough Haste you can get it to a 1 minute cooldown. Banishga isn't going to give us the AoE threat tool we need unless they're adding enmity to it besides enmity from damage. Something like Flashga would have been a step in the right direction. In order to use an AoE Cure effectively for enmity, you need to cure a lot. If the fight is going well, you're not curing DDs for enough to maintain hate. If the monster turns to face a DD, your WHMs are going to be on top of it, and you're not going to cure that DD for enough to get the monster to turn back. I get the feeling this ability is going to be at minimum on a 5 minute cooldown without a lot of Cumulative and Volatile enmity, but I'll have to wait and see. And I'm not even going to bother going over why Atonement is such a mess. They don't seem interested in improving that either.
The way the update was worded, it seems the devs are worried more with the identity of the job and its distinction from RUN than its role effectiveness. They've missed the point completely there. They're already different enough, they need parity in role effectiveness. They can alter existing PLD abilities and spells to maintain the job identity and improve its toolset.
I guess by now I should just be used to the devs doing this to jobs.

[Gwydion]

The underwhelming updates to my favorite jobs over the last 2-3 months has really made me re-consider playing. It is a very sad day to be NA FFXI Player. :(

[Seish]

SE is drilling that the point is with other jobs supporting, you can still have enmity control. This game always was, and is, a team based game and to exhaust hate control as a team rather than it resting on one job specifically.

[Seish]

Honestly you have what it takes to hold enmity in XIV, (Iron Will PLD Defiance WAR) just copy it over lol, there is a metric ton of copying mobs, moves etc from XI to XIV so it can't be that hard. Literally as soon as the designated tank puts the move on unless said tank dies it does not move off of the tank no matter what.

They said in the manifesto they will not do this. They want a challenge for PLD to exist in holding hate and that by making it too easy the job will be boring. I don't think they will budge. If you want to see the specific quote, it can be found here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12039-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-Job-Adjustments-Manifesto-Paladin?p=165471&viewfull=1#post165471

[Alhanelem]

The thing is there's good challenge and there's bad challenge Bad challenge is when no matter how well you play you keep losing hate, because you're always bumping against a ceiling that everyone else has no problem reaching either. In reality the job is no better at holding hate than anyone else and a tank's defining characteristic is supposed to keeping an enemy away from other players. If they aren't better at doing that then what's the point?

[Seish]

And that's why they added curaga. Someone pointed out, oh cool another useless magic spell that I already had /dnc. Well honestly, with this, now PLD's will be able to sub whatever they need AND get curaga. That will help a lot with establishing enmity on other mobs that no player touched. And to the banishga spell, we have no idea what other sauce they are giving PLD. But judging the nature of it, where you have a TON of mobs that are attacking, this helps ease things a lot. Now I see the concern for hard NM's and difficult content. But that's why there's THF's and hate control. The game drilled into us hate control and SE is not willing to remove that concept. Not everything is a easy win button. But I think they went far enough with this update--though we actually need it to be pushed out first.

[Kirth]

The underwhelming updates to my favorite jobs over the last 2-3 months has really made me re-consider playing. It is a very sad day to be NA FFXI Player. :(

Yeah, ditto. I don't want to have to play RUN to play all the high end content my linkshell does. I'm mulling over ending my subscription.

[Mikah]

You should. Stop paying them, that's the only way to get their attention. As long as you keep paying your opinions don't matter.

[Wanorano]

For the first time, and I've been playing since US release, I'm considering dropping my sub. I find it harder and harder to justify paying full price (no matter how low it is for some) and wardrobes to a company that simply doesn't care at all about this game except for easy money.
The job updates top it all off.

[Kirth]

Yep. I'm out. I gave the new changes a shot, but they're not what PLD needed to achieve parity with RUN. The devs have not at all paid attention to anything the community has had to say about PLD's shortcomings, and I'm not going to wait around another year for them to tease out another "change" only to have it be something that completely misses the mark yet again. I'll consider coming back once PLD is as good as RUN at tanking. So long and thanks for all the fish.