Fraudulent & Mischievous Bazaars

[Nelyus]

Hello,

This is not the first time I am raising this issue.
Some people are selling items for the price of a stack in bazaar;
Plutons, Beitetsu, Boulders & Alexandrites are popular choices.

I don't know why no actions are taken against such a scam.
3 of my friends got trapped by those, all together lost over 150M gils to a mule named Emiriant on Odin server.
2 of them quit the game shortly afterwards, the other one barely plays it anymore.

Today I walked to Orobo and saw a character named Karaodin holding such a bazaar.

Please ban the accounts of the players doing such a fraud. It is extremely frustrating to see people would steal from other in such manners. It is even more frustrating to see Square Enix accepts it.
It is supposed to be against the user agreement; "to use deceptive tactics" "to steal from other players"

Thank you.

[Isola]

It's not fraud. There is no price that players MUST charge. Regardless of how it looks to you. Anyone can put anything in their bazaar for any price. It's on YOU to not be stupid.

[Sirmarki]

There is no rule to say how much somebody should/can charge for something. People (like businesses) can sell an item for whatever price they like. This is where 'Buyer awareness' kicks in.

There is also a confirmation box before you make that purchase, to check the final price.
You wouldn't sign a legal document before reading it? No, you check it first.

So yeh, there are people out there looking to make a lot of money doing this, that [sadly] is part of life.

[Stompa]

We've had this on the server I'm on too, a Mithra mule sits next to Oboro 24/7 and sells the upgrade rocks for like 340k per single rock.

This is highly dishonourable behaviour.

It is not against the rules though, because it is a private bazaar. The rules apply to AH Manipulation, although of course the policing of such crimes is quite lax these days, along with all the other very obvious crimes.

I'm very sorry to hear that your friends quit the game, as a result of falling victim to this dishonourable behaviour. It is important to remember that in FFXI, for every dishonourable person running scams, there are ten people who behave honourably and will spend their own precious free time Helping You Out With Stuff.

I checked the Oboro mule on my server, and I was immediately aware, just from the supposed quantity available, that these were single items, not stacks. Nobody has thousands of stacks of these rocks in 2019. I prefer to farm these rocks myself in HMBC, or worst case scenario to buy these rocks on the AH.

Dishonourable "Dirty Play" gamers have existed in FFXI since before I joined in 2004. It is nothing new. You need to be alert, and guard your purse.

I remember we did an Under Observation BLM manaburn BCNM in 2006, and the person we picked up from /shout, she said "I want to use my orb last" (which should have made us wary!) It turns out she didn't have an orb at all. She just waited for the first battle to end, and she disbanded party and opened the treasure box as a Solo Player, to grab the PCC and Utsu scroll. She just opened the box, used a warp scroll, and immediately logged out.

So this kind of Dirty Play has been going on since forever. But it is important that you and your friends remember that 90% of players are not dishonourable brigands. Most FFXI players love Vana'diel and we want to make Vana'diel welcoming and enjoyable for everyone. We strive to cherish and defend Vana'diel, and we do so by behaving in a friendly and honourable manner.

[Alhanelem]

It's not fraud. There is no price that players MUST charge. Regardless of how it looks to you. Anyone can put anything in their bazaar for any price. It's on YOU to not be stupid.I think there's a difference between charging a high price and deliberately setting a single to the price of a stack or adding a few zeroes to exploit people that aren't paying close enough attention. One is just being a tough seller and the other is being predatory. This happens a lot and I don't really feel like the appropriate response is "sucks to be you." I think there is a certain level of egregiousness where SE should intervene.

TL;DR there's a difference between setting high prices and intentionally trying to scam people.

[Sirmarki]

I think there is a certain level of egregiousness where SE should intervene.

Like I said, there is a confirmation box before you buy.

So there are two steps to NOT making the mistake.

1. Checking the price in the first place.
2. Accepting the confirmation message to buy.

It doesn't need anymore than that.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Honorable people will all agree that it is a disgusting practice that makes victims of unsuspecting or distracted people. Buyer beware is the only recourse currently as stated above.

That being said; I am leaving a link to a proposal i developed earlier this year that not only is a great improvement over our current status quo, but would additionally reduce the vast majority of scams and schemes that deteriorates the FFXI environment.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/55608-Placed-into-June-Digest-reply-but-relates-to-items-crafting-economy-econ-health

[Alhanelem]

Like I said, there is a confirmation box before you buy.

So there are two steps to NOT making the mistake.

1. Checking the price in the first place.
2. Accepting the confirmation message to buy.

It doesn't need anymore than that.
Confirmation prompts don't excuse intentional abusive behavior. And frankly, advocating for that to be the only recourse makes it look like you engage in this kind of activity.

There most certainly should be consequences for being a scam artist, for lack of a more forum-appropriate term.

[Sirmarki]

Confirmation prompts don't excuse intentional abusive behavior. And frankly, advocating for that to be the only recourse makes it look like you engage in this kind of activity.

My word. I mean, it's two steps.

LOOK at the price first, it's not rocket science is it?
CHECK the confirmation box beforehand.

99% of the population manage this.

There are always going to be scammers around, trying to stop them is like trying to stop RMT.

[Minamikun]

Search “Kara” + four letter from your server name in Final Fantasy XI Auction site. It seems like gill seller try to scam on player.

[Alhanelem]

My word. I mean, it's two steps.

LOOK at the price first, it's not rocket science is it?
CHECK the confirmation box beforehand.

99% of the population manage this.

There are always going to be scammers around, trying to stop them is like trying to stop RMT.
My word, you can add a hundred confirmation boxes and people will still screw it up.

What you're trying to tell me is, "if you click through a confirmation, well sucks to be you, no matter how much of a [redacted] the guy selling is for trying to exploit you in the first place."

Yes, there will always be scammers, but if you punish them, there won't be so many (and not as blatant)

These people generally position themselves right next to an NPC that the item in question is needed for, particularly plutons/boulders/beitetsu next to Oboro, and they know people are going to expect that their bazaar has these items. When people are in a hurry, they tend to overlook confirmation prompts. Even though I normally double check, sometimes I've done it too. Most of us have, we get so irritated at the game asking us "are you sure" so much in FFXI's menu driven interface that it just happens.

[Alhanelem]

Search “Kara” + four letter from your server name in Final Fantasy XI Auction site. It seems like gill seller try to scam on player.

Given how ive seen people yell/shout talking about ppl like this in town, and how they literally never seem to respond to or join conversations about themselves, It wouldn't surprise me at all that they're RMT looking for another funding source.

[Reain]

Normally I think buyer beware, but since the kara- characters are systematically doing this across all servers I think Square-Enix should intervene.

[Isola]

Regardless of how it looks it is NOT against any rules. Just don't be stupid. It's that simple.

You can't ban someone for putting shit in their bazaar. Regardless of the way you feel about it.

The only way to "fix" it is to make an NPC that sells "everything". Then you eliminate bazaars. And everyone rejoices.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Read what my link proposes... entirely.

[Sirmarki]

Picture edited in accordance with Forum rules:

https://i.imgur.com/dBtkYPo.jpg

Buyer Beware!

[Alhanelem]

Regardless of how it looks it is NOT against any rules. Just don't be stupid. It's that simple.

You can't ban someone for putting shit in their bazaar. Regardless of the way you feel about it.

The only way to "fix" it is to make an NPC that sells "everything". Then you eliminate bazaars. And everyone rejoices.
Hyperbole doesn't help. No one is suggesting all bazaars be banned or that you aren't allowed to set the price you want. There's a difference between that and what is actually going on. This is systematic exploitation, possibly and probably being carried out by RMT.

(one thing that strikes me odd about the pic above is that usually these characters are stationed near the NPC that takes those items, not the NPC that creates them)

[Isola]

You obviously don't know that they also take the Bayld

[Sirmarki]

You obviously don't know that they also take the Bayld

Take it.....?

[Isola]

While Runje is the one that creates HP-Bayld, Geosuke is the one you give them to for Ergons.

[Sirmarki]

While Runje is the one that creates HP-Bayld, Geosuke is the one you give them to for Ergons.

Yeh I know that, I was trading HP-Bayld for the last stage of Idris.

I thought you meant the player I'm indicating in the screenshot takes your bayld if you accidentally trade it to them.

EDIT: Ahh. You were replying to Alhanelem originally?

(one thing that strikes me odd about the pic above is that usually these characters are stationed near the NPC that takes those items, not the NPC that creates them)

[Seriha]

Yeah, I'll pass on the victim blaming for what is obviously scam behavior. No, it's not new. No, a confirmation prompt isn't enough.


Probably the only real way to get around it is to create a completely new item tab to hold items bought/sold via bazaars for 24 hours. Any gil gained in these sales is also held within the tab until the buyer decides to move them into their primary inventory or the 24 hours pass. Bought items in this special window will also show the unit cost and total paid for the transaction, to further emphasize how buying a fake-stack cost them. The last 10 items bought will also be kept in your history so you can have a small comparison window.


Though, I would much rather have a modernized AH so we could just get rid of bazaaring altogether and let people sell whatever at varying stacks/costs while also seeing who the seller is.

[Pixela]

FFXI is a living breathing world, in the world there are scammers and crooks. Heroes and villains.

Utopias are boring, don't try sanitize everything.

[Fatty]

The intention is what counts here. Deliberately trying to scam other players is a bannable offense in my book. But by the game's "laws," any item can be priced anything, and hence mechanically it's not wrong. But as I said, the intention here is what counts.

Confirmation dialogs are not enough. (How many times did you stop and consciously consider the price of an item before putting it up on AH on the confirmation dialog?)

I agree with Seriha, a buy back period is what is needed here. Maybe not as long as 24h. And it should not be tied to the player's own bazaar. Because some people will try to log off and hide their bazaars after a purchase (I wouldn't be surprised if they even try to automate this somehow). It should be controlled solely from the buyer's side. So if you "regret" your purchase, you can return the items and get your gil back automatically with a simple command, without interacting with the seller or their bazaar.

The same should apply to AH as well. There are people who often buy the wrong item (stack vs single), a mistake on their part. Or add an extra digit (or more) due to a keyboard/gamepad slide and they don't realize it until after they confirm the purchase. They should not be punished for making such mistakes. You should be able to undo it within a reasonable time limit.

[Sirmarki]

Probably the only real way to get around it is to create a completely new item tab to hold items bought/sold via bazaars for 24 hours. Any gil gained in these sales is also held within the tab until the buyer decides to move them into their primary inventory or the 24 hours pass. Bought items in this special window will also show the unit cost and total paid for the transaction, to further emphasize how buying a fake-stack cost them. The last 10 items bought will also be kept in your history so you can have a small comparison window.

Then (once again) genuine players suffer. All non 'scammers' will have to wait 24 hours to get the gil they may need sooner than that. One of the things about a bazaar is to offload bulky/stack items all at once and avoid the AH limitation.
I can also imagine it being a coding headache on SE's part.

Changing the code for probably 1% of the populations ill gotten gains is just not viable at this stage.

The absolute priority at this stage is sorting out bots and cheaters running scripts. Genuine players are quiting because of it.

[Alhanelem]

I don't think we need waiting periods, I think we need rules that discourage scam artistry to be enforced. Scamming is in fact against the rules.

The one thing they could do which probably isnt realistic to implement is to make the OK button in confirmation boxes require that you hold down the confirm button for a few seconds/n which may give people's eyes enough time to realize they made a mistake. FFXIV does this for a number of things that are often undesirable for the player but which sometimes you might actually do- declining a raise, and choosing to Return while KO'd, and certain other important decisions. you have to hold the button down for 2 seconds to press the potentially undesirable command. I think other things like demolishing a house also use it.

[TehBeast]

Probably the only real way to get around it is to create a completely new item tab to hold items bought/sold via bazaars for 24 hours. Any gil gained in these sales is also held within the tab until the buyer decides to move them into their primary inventory or the 24 hours pass. Bought items in this special window will also show the unit cost and total paid for the transaction, to further emphasize how buying a fake-stack cost them. The last 10 items bought will also be kept in your history so you can have a small comparison window.

How does it work when I accidentally sell a stack of, for example, Silverpieces for the price of Bronzepieces? Can I undo the sale within those 24 hours?

[Seriha]

Then (once again) genuine players suffer. All non 'scammers' will have to wait 24 hours to get the gil they may need sooner than that. One of the things about a bazaar is to offload bulky/stack items all at once and avoid the AH limitation.
I can also imagine it being a coding headache on SE's part.

Changing the code for probably 1% of the populations ill gotten gains is just not viable at this stage.

The absolute priority at this stage is sorting out bots and cheaters running scripts. Genuine players are quiting because of it.


It's only detrimental to legit sellers if the buyer lets it sit in their temporary inventory. I'd even be okay shortening the window to as low as 4 hours. Assuming any and all sales are on the up, you'd have your funds shortly after as they retrieve them to use/add to their existing stock. Your implied immediate need for cash is otherwise equal to their implied immediate need for the item(s) sold. If you can't tolerate this sort of safety net, then the AH still exists as a more immediate third-party broker. Which, as per my initial post on the topic, justifiably needs an overhaul of its own to negate the need of bazaars entirely.





How does it work when I accidentally sell a stack of, for example, Silverpieces for the price of Bronzepieces? Can I undo the sale within those 24 hours?


I'd say there's a fundamental difference in accidentally giving someone a good deal as opposed to intentionally ripping someone off. Otherwise, the system is intended as buyer protection, not seller. And to address another poster's point, the seller couldn't "save themselves" by logging out, either. Conceptually, there's less pressure behind setting up a bazaar as opposed to shopping from one. Presuming a player does spot a good deal, or their belief of one, you can never be certain someone else won't swoop in and buy it before you confirm. I imagine this has played into a good number of mis-buys over time. I'd also posit you'd have better luck negotiating with someone in this instance than a scammer, assuming you haven't AFK'd your log into obscurity. You probably won't get your items back, or full value, but you can't approach this thinking they bought from you maliciously, either.