FFXI DESPERATELY NEEDS BAN HAMMERS!

[Clou777]

Its almost impossible right now to get a decent CP party, every zone is FILLED to the brim with RMT botters selling JP! and with the CONSTANT yelling in towns of people advertising their websites for buying gil what the hell is anyone doing about it? I dont even want to try to master a job right now because it's a battle to compete against botters pulling mobs.

we need a john wick GM!

[Jerbob]

I don't think it's quite as bad on Phoenix, but we have some ridiculously blatant botting and RMT going on here too. Weekends are particularly bad - every Friday evening without fail, Ceizak and Yahse fill to the brim with BST bots fleehacking around farming sparks, poshacking around Adoulin inside walls converting them to gil. Then they magically disappear on Sunday evening. There are bots poshacking around Dynamis - Jeuno farming currency 24/7 - pretty sure they're all run by the same person, and every month or so there's a new one because they know they can get away with it. Completely fresh lv1 keyboard smash characters stand at the PJ guidestone bazaaring frankly absurd amounts of Dynamis currency at "low, low prices!", all presumably botted. Inner Ra'Kaznar constantly has people botting cards. I caught one of the notorious ones botting CP AFK for four days straight last week. Recently we've had the RMT yells coming back too.

I've reported all of these to the STF more times than I can count. Pretty sure the reports are piped directly into /dev/null.

All SE needs to do is have one GM do the rounds of each server every other day or so, including weekends. The botting is so incredibly blatant that it'll be obvious the instant a GM actually sees it happening.

I'll sign off in the same way I sign every single report I make to the STF - PLEASE DO SOMETHING.

[Makilahy]

Its almost impossible right now to get a decent CP party, every zone is FILLED to the brim with RMT botters selling JP! and with the CONSTANT yelling in towns of people advertising their websites for buying gil what the hell is anyone doing about it? I dont even want to try to master a job right now because it's a battle to compete against botters pulling mobs.

we need a john wick GM!

That's one big reason why I refuse to move to Asura. I moved their briefly this month to force a character rename, and I never wanted to leave my Mog House / Mog Garden because of the non-stop stream of yelling. RMT, party requests, and right-wing hate speech... Hmm... I think I'll stay on Fenrir.

[Sirmarki]

That's one big reason why I refuse to move to Asura. I moved their briefly this month to force a character rename, and I never wanted to leave my Mog House / Mog Garden because of the non-stop stream of yelling. RMT, party requests, and right-wing hate speech... Hmm... I think I'll stay on Fenrir.

I was originally from Fenrir. Just out of interest, what is the average number of people online these days?

Oh, and the yell/merc/troll thing on Asura just gets worse and worse. I was one click away from cancelling my subscription and uninstalling FFXI last night.

In my opinion we need:
- A keyword blocker
- An increased blacklist cap (extended beyond 100)
- Active moderation (in other words remove the offender on the spot, or suspend their yell activity for x number of days).

[Zehira]

STF report thread on cheating (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/54843-%E4%B8%8D%E6%AD%A3%E8%A1%8C%E7%82%BA%E3%81%AB%E9%96%A2%E3%81%99%E3%82%8BSTF%E3%81%8B%E3%82%89%E3%81%AE%E3%81%94%E5%A0%B1%E5%91%8A%E3%82%B9%E3%83%AC%E3%83%83%E3%83%89?p=619332&viewfull=1#post619332)
Matsui: The STF team reported on the current status of countermeasures. We appreciate your continued support of your opinions and information.

Minamikun's post with a list of English threads regarding RMT and BOT (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/55858-8%E6%9C%8823%E6%97%A5%EF%BC%88%E9%87%91%EF%BC%89%EF%BD%9E8%E6%9C%8829%E6%97%A5%EF%BC%88%E6%9C%A8%EF%BC%89%E3%81%BE%E3%81%A7%E3%81%AE%E6%8A%95%E7%A8%BF%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7?p=619370&viewfull=1#post619370)

[Amnesty]

Banhammer Cometh

https://youtu.be/6g1BRypeg2Y

How complaints sound to SE

https://youtu.be/FC3TVi2af1k

All better now snowflakes?

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

I would hope the vast majority of us are competent enough to construct our own judgments, perceptions and constructive proposals to add to this topic. The usual comments are depictions of ToS violations that do need to have vengeful action taken against the perpetrators. Additionally all players that want to see an end to unpunished prohibited behavior should be leaving feedback that includes ideas for solutions to vanquish the said prohibited acts.

[Isola]

Do not click those links. It sets your youtube to mobile. and you will have to change it back manully or it will be stuck on Mobil.

[Pixela]

If you are saying there is an army of botters permanently camping places then don't contact a GM, contact the special task force who will investigate over a long period of time and take action if they think it's really an issue.

https://support.na.square-enix.com/contacttop.php?id=20&la=1

A GM is now basically a customer service agent and the only time they ban people is over chat violations, they are not there to deal with botting or cheating. They are not police, most of their power has been taken away over the past few years because they are not able to make good decisions and often were banning people who should not of been banned (this is a business first and foremost).

[VoiceMemo]

I have been reporting the same automated bot farmers for over a year now

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/53686-Many-people-cheating-automated-bot-to-farm-drops-to-synth-spheres-for-Escutcheon

yet they are still there. Does it honestly take SE over a YEAR to find enough data to ban someone for automated bot farming? Isn't it more likely SE just cares more for the monthly fees than following the rules that they themselves have set.

[Pixela]

If you have reported it and it's been a year they either have come to the conclusion they are not bots (automated play is not afk play) or they don't see it as a problem.

[Sirmarki]

If you have reported it and it's been a year they either have come to the conclusion they are not bots (automated play is not afk play) or they don't see it as a problem.

Oh, they are bots no doubt. At the very least they are running third party software. You can trace their movements and watch them turn at exactly the same pixel point everytime.

The problem is that I believe one person is running these and I think they have a way of "replying" to any potential /tells by whatever means they are using to do so. They may just been keeping an eye on their screen.
There for, they are kind of 'at their computer'. However, at the very least, they are running third party software. No doubt.

A deep look into the "logs" would reveal:
1) The amount of time they have been there
2) The point that the path of movement is exactly the same, every time.

However, doing this for everything single reported suspected bot (i.e. Looking through tons of logs), is just not viable for any kind of small team.

[VoiceMemo]

They could just hire me, I'd do the job for free. Technically am doing GMs/STF job already as I record the names, date, time, location, etc for them.

[Zehira]

For years, I had my secret agents for crafting and farming. You have no idea how many reports they sent against me. (I was monitoring /tell messages from some angry players like "hey stupid you are on recording lolololol you goofy... you are being reported") I haven't made a comeback whatsoever. I only did it because I was curious about STF and wasn't afraid of getting banned.

What STF really did to me? Removed my access to one of home points I was heading to.. Or was it a server bug? What a trick!

Sadly, this will not wake up the majority but keep supporting.

New Update: RMTの大群が居て (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/55890-RMT%E3%81%AE%E5%A4%A7%E7%BE%A4%E3%81%8C%E5%B1%85%E3%81%A6)

[Isola]

Oo? They greyed out or removed a home point location from your list, pix pls! That seems pretty dumb, there are many ways into a zone other than the HP

[Zehira]

Oo? They greyed out or removed a home point location from your list, pix pls! That seems pretty dumb, there are many ways into a zone other than the HP

No evidence needed. I am certain I have every home point registered in all Adoulin areas. The only one that got removed is in Yorcia Weald (that when my LS mates and I were going to do Skirmish). I had to use the waypoint to get that home point registered again and Augural Conveyor. Anyways, that only happened a few months ago.

[Sirmarki]

For years, I had my secret agents for crafting and farming. You have no idea how many reports they sent against me. (I was monitoring /tell messages from some angry players like "hey stupid you are on recording lolololol you goofy... you are being reported") I haven't made a comeback whatsoever. I only did it because I was curious about STF and wasn't afraid of getting banned.

Wait, did you just say you were running bots?

[Pixela]

One of the tricks they use sometimes is they will remove a warp point from your account and see if you still warp there, then they know you're using the warp tools.

[Isola]

You give them far too much credit. You think they actually do that, i'm literally loling.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

This is a response i left in a different topic that is relevant to the harmful observed activity discussed here.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/55608-Placed-into-June-Digest-reply-but-relates-to-items-crafting-economy-econ-health?p=619693#post619693

Large sums of gil or the means by which honest players can quickly acquire it really isn't the issue here. Prices are much much much higher overall due to the prohibited business of RMT inflating the market. When market prices lower, that additionally lowers pricing for items which are sold to you. The serious issue here is to render scams, schemes and RMT activity on FFXI servers competitively ineffective through design.

Read the proposal through and apply logical comprehension.

As of now items sold to npc shop are removed out of the circulation of the market. With the proposal as conceptualized the players have the option to sell into a FFXI warehousing structure and those items remain in circulation.

As of now scoundrels can, have, and do manipulate the AH pricing history illegitimately using false forced sales to lower a price of a item they wish to purchase in bulk or raise a price of a item they believe that they can retail at a higher price.
With the proposal these actions and behaviors will have very minimal impact and a vast number of transactions will need to occur for drastic changes of value to happen.

As of now ambitious and scheming accounts are corrupting the "EX" item tag system against the actual purpose of it's design intent.
With the proposal everyone that resides on FFXI is placed into a vastly more unbiased economy with the benefit of unrestrained transactions within the proposed warehousing system with the benefit of previously destroyed items remaining in circulation and items previously determined to be unworthy of AH sale now becoming more readily available using the proposed system.

With this proposal commerce will flourish and thrive.

As of now corrupt individuals violate ToS through interactions with prohibited RMT to pay vastly higher prices than they could without these dishonorable means. The overall effect is that an honorable player is faced with these same vastly higher prices as a shopper. In addition to this detrimental consequence, the honorable player can additionally find that they are denied party participation as a result of a less developed itemization progress or party positions being determined by the mercenary culture.
With this proposal intrinsic gil is retained on your account. Safeguarded gil is then exchanged through the warehousing/pawn shop interface between players which is mediated as described. Trade box is reformed to continue to allow the trade of tangible items with the interface for gil removed. Delivery box is reformed to continue to allow for all delivery with one change in that the interface for gil is restricted to same account (or bound to account).

Upon the full implementation of the proposal the outcome will be : the disintegration of the ability for RMT to comfortably distribute assets, the disintegration of gil used as a medium for the mercenary culture, the disintegration of the limits and repercussions imposed by the current auction house, and the disintegration of schemes scams and other detrimental behavior corresponding with the corrupt procurement of defiled gil funds.

[Pixela]

You give them far too much credit. You think they actually do that, i'm literally loling.

It's how I would do it, also I've lost a warp point on an alt account I know I had so.

[Pixela]

RMT isn't bad, as long as it is controlled. Zero tolerance never works.

If a company destroys all RMT, then often their game will die shortly after.

[Alhanelem]

RMT isn't bad, as long as it is controlled. Zero tolerance never works.

If a company destroys all RMT, then often their game will die shortly after.
You imply that anyone has ever succeeded at doing this. That hasn't ever happened. Failiure of the game destroys the RMT market, not the other way around.

[Sirmarki]

If a company destroys all RMT, then often their game will die shortly after.

I think you may have that the wrong way around!?

[Isola]

Not really. It works both ways. Everytime square has done something to thwart RMT they hurt the playerbase, and the playerbase gets smaller. It's an impossible battle.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Every honorable player enjoys happiness each and every time these vermin face consequences.

There are a handful of posters that take a position of apathy.

That apathy leads me to believe that they are personally customers of these prohibited websites, suppliers to these prohibited websites, friendly with other players that are customers of these prohibited websites or are exploiting these gil buyers through selling contemptible services and merch.

RMT obstruct access to limited open world resources. RMT artificially inflate trading price values. Cheating, obstruction and detrimental activities INDUCE subscription losses. An account that is violating ToS by which it's actions are harmful to honorable residents is not a viable subscription to be counted. Harmful behaviors destroy online gaming genres. Online gaming patrons are repulsed by encounters with prohibited or unethical conduct.

Any account that facilitates RMT commerce concedes that account to punishment through justified termination. Any account that vandalizes the intended gaming structure of FFXI through third party programs / scripting / use of bots concedes that account to punishment through justified termination.

Honorable players DO NOT want to coexist with miscreant perpetrators. I can not emphasize that enough.

[Isola]

Like I said, it's a losing battle. It's lose/lose. There is no good outcome. Regardless of the impossibility.

You could make the game great... for the 3 people that will play it. And it closes. Or, you can leave it as is, and make it great for a select few, and mildly annoying for thousands. There's no grey area. There very much needs to be certain things that are done however. Very much so.

[Pixela]

When FFXI was new it was filled with people with more time than money, now FFXI is 16 years old it's filled with people with more money than time. Actually this is still true for almost any mmorpg in 2019 (as shown by ffxiv with its cash shop)

These people buy gil because they don't have time to farm it and they want to make progress on their REMA and whatever else so they effectively pay others to farm their gil for them, if RMT is abolished these people can't make progress (They aren't going to work less hours or not spend time with their kids to grind gil) so they will just quit playing. You know this is true because they buy it now, RMT would not exist if the demand was not there.

This is a loss of players and a loss of revenue.

The RMT pay a subscription, when they get banned softly (not banned quick enough where they make no profit) they buy the game again and continue paying a sub (often multiple). If these people are banned harshly they will stop paying to farm gil.

This is a loss of players and a loss of revenue.

There are serious hardcore endgame players that sell gil, if their were no longer allowed to do this they would quit the game because they have nothing else to do at this point.

This is a loss of players and a loss of revenue.

If Square take a zero tolerance against RMT and ban every RMT and every bot they won't attract more players, they will just make some people happy that they can now farm whatever it was with no competition and prices will increase on the auction house for them.

One action is worse than the other for the game because the game needs to be profitable to continue running (they also work the same way with ffxiv, they control rmt and don't destroy them).

The goal of the Special task force is to control RMT, to stop them being a nuisance as much as possible (so they make gil in ways that don't massively impact other players) without destroying it completely.

To use a stupid analogy: I hate bees, If I demanded every bee is destroyed I would be happy for a while but then all the flowers would die because the bees pollinate them. However I don't want thousands of bees in my garden, I want them controlled and not annihilated from existence.

[Pixela]

Also as I additional point: when Square did ban RMT really hard to the point they were making no money, they changed tactic and didn't stop selling gil.

When Square stopped them being able to farm gil in a controlled fashion they:

DDOS'd the servers constantly over long periods of time as retaliation.
They stole peoples accounts via hacking and trojans and viruses on ffxi related websites ads.
They hacked the game in as many ways as possible.
They farmed gil in the game in really obnoxious ways as fast as possible and didn't care about annoying anyone.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

All of which is illegal and prohibited behavior. You do not back down to terrorists. You do not back down to tyrants. You do not take a position of forced oppression as a Online game PROVIDER/DEVELOPER in the face of allowing iconic titles to fall victim to THUGS! SQUARE ENIX ! Are you reading this exchange ? Over-haul + Reform FFXI interface ! Disrupt this infestation ! Square Enix Save YOUR REPUTATION as a leader in retail gaming !

[Isola]

You DO have to back down, if you want your business to keep making money dawg.

Customers that aren't spending as much money don't matter. Money is the only thing that matters.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

The company providing the online game has to cripple this type of infestation to safeguard ALL of it's current and ALL of it's future titles. The corruption is not limited to only FFXI, Square-Enix must show they are resolute not to allow any safe haven.

[Isola]

Like I told you 6 or 7 times, its. impossible. to. do. that. period.

The repercussions mean the end of XI

[Mnemnopyn]

I'm so excited that I saw all of this before responding to the other Tullemore discussion. @Isola/Pixela, you are reasonable people, by which I mean, you use reason and logic to attempt to convince others. Unfortunately, our friend here has confirmed his moral absolutist stance quite thoroughly with the yelling and whatnot. He's some kind of Utopian and isn't bothering with "reason" so much as "it's wrong, ergo zero tolerance." It's literally impossible to convince him of anything he doesn't already believe wholeheartedly. Ayn Rand wrote that "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it... Leave them alone." While this could be apocryphal, and I couldn't find a good source for it, I think the advice applies here. SE has to exist in the real world, they're not running a charity, and Pixela's breakdown of the factors in play is absolutely correct. I'm sorry, Tullemore, but you're on the wrong side of reason here, and I don't think we can be friends.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

{Edit: Pixela has fully shown themselves to be a RMT sympathizer or agent. The perspective that Pixela makes rational sense is absurd. It is akin to saying that the smallpox virus exists on earth, and therefore we must embrace it and allow it to flourish. Completely absurd!}

As long as apathy exists, this title will tarnish. When those that can't do anything for themselves un-sub; Far after many honorable players un-sub; Then the perpetrators un-sub; Then SE has a completely failed title. Service Ends. FFXI falls to the abyss of unsustainable. Then you, the apathetic, have your perfect utopia. Where you, the apathetic, for your ignorance will in the end if Square-Enix does not intervene WILL finally see the demise of any stature FFXI ever had. All of this for what? To allow scoundrels to pilfer dollars? All of this to allow gil buyers to insert corrupt gil into the economy?

Have Square-Enix create Four servers. Everyone is migrated to their choice.

One: Asia population + allows all cheats and violations.
Two: Asia population + Major reforms, cheating shutdown + RMT squashed + high STF surveillance
Three: Western population + allows all cheats and violations.
Four: Western population + Major reforms, cheating shutdown + RMT squashed + high STF surveillance

Ask yourself, where would people go to? What sort of players would occupy the un-policed servers? What sort of players would occupy the upgraded virtuous servers?

Ask yourself, where would you like to be? Would you the apathetic stooge of the RMT propaganda go to reside on the server where corruption has no consequences?

[Isola]

That's what they should've done 10 years ago. You're just describing jail servers. They would've make BANK for pay to unban and play on a "jail server"

Too little too late.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Seventeen years ago.

[VoiceMemo]

The Special Task Force does post how many accounts they ban and how much gil is frozen per month at http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/rule/specialtask.html.

Though I can't say I totally believe them. I've been reporting automated bot farmers for over a year, yet they still here. Does it really take a year to do investigation. Can't they do like GMs can, go invisible and watch players running the EXACT same routes down to the pixel over and over for hours on end.

[Jerbob]

I'm not quite sure how to react to posts of people actively advocating RMT, buying gil and botting. It's a little shocking.

I understand the argument that some people live lives that make it difficult to spend time farming gil/etc for themselves, and I am sure that is frustrating for those people. But, if we're being honest, is that a genuine justification for wholesale cheating and violations of the TOS? It's just the classic "I have a real life with a job and a family and a hamster, and you're all losers, so I can X" argument from years ago wrapped up in a new pseudo-mature bubble, and it's usually accompanied by the same subtly superior tone. I'm not sure why there is this entitlement to have it all at any cost just because someone has X other responsibilities in their life.

The fact remains at all those people with real life responsibilities absolutely can make gil and work on the game if they want to. It'll just take longer (Earth time). That's what those people dislike - but honestly, it's a fact of life that we all deal with every day. I'm sorry if I don't have much sympathy, but that's literally how the world works. We shouldn't have to sacrifice our enjoyment of the game just because people feel entitled to a shortcut.

Arguments in favour of all this also ignore the fact that this game is developed based on statistics and feedback gathered by SE. If people can afford to buy something or work on a goal, then from SE’s perspective there's no reason to change it. If literally no-one can afford to do activity X, then there's something wrong with it. I'm not arguing that this system works flawlessly (it clearly doesn't), but it's in place and it happens.

Synthesis shields are an example. If no-one could make the things, SE would know. People do make them through illegitimate means, but the statistics show that they're being made, so they must be fine. Unfortunately, it sucks to be the rest of us who don't cheat.

There's also the recent use of tools that violate the TOS in the Lilith battlefield. X number of people have won on difficulty Y, so the statistics indicate that it's fine. Most of those X are using tools, but SE don't necessarily know that (or etc etc). The battlefield must be fine. Sucks to be the rest of us.

This perpetuates as development continues. As players, clearing the Lilith battlefield demonstrates that we can handle her mechanics. The statistics for difficulty level demonstrates the extent to which this is true. New content will take that level of competence into account. Because people cheat to complete it, the level of competence required to complete new content incorporates the effect of the tools. Sucks to be those of us not using those tools.

Yes, the gil buyers and cheaters may quit if their tools and streams of gil are cut off. But people on the other end of the spectrum get fed up by the absurdly inflated prices, constant presence of RMT, deeply embedded flagrant disregard of the TOS, forced proxy advocacy for cheating via items purchased, and bad attitude of the top-tier players who advocate these things. And they play less frequently, or they quit.

I'm not saying I'm in that position - I'm not quitting any time soon. But there are days when I've had to put up with RMT crawling all over Yahse/Ceizak/Garlaige/Western Adoulin/Dynamis - Jeuno, days when I've had to put up with cheaters in my PUG groups flagrantly using tools to break mechanics (that I then benefit from), days that I've had to explain for the umpteenth time that I can't X because I don't use Y, days when I've had to buy a piece of gear made with a synthesis shield that is 100% certain to have been botted (making me an accomplice). And on those days I log out early and go and do something else, because even though I want to play FFXI, I've had enough of the community-sanctioned TOS-violating nonsense.

If we're being realistic and pragmatic in our outlook, examining real life situations of players and the paramount importance of revenue to businesses, then let's look at both sides of the coin. Let's not disregard the poisonous effect that these attitudes, tools and standards have on the playerbase as a whole, the fact that it's a force that pushes people away, and let's not disregard the cumulative effect that it has had and will continue to have on the development of the game in the future.

[Isola]

No one is advocating RMT, it's just something that cannot be stopped. and a necessary evil.

But the blantant shouting every 30 seconds, for entire months can and absolutely should be stopped.

[Jerbob]

I agree that it probably can't be completely stopped. A lot more can be done, though, and making excuses for people who buy gil is not helpful. Less RMT is better than more.

The shouting is a symptom of the problem, and it's a minor irritation compared to the direct negative consequences of RMT. It's difficult to stymie it without rooting out the cause. Preventative measures like the /tell filter are fallible, as we all know, and restricting /yells by means of the methods mentioned here hurt legitimate players too. We need to go for the origin.

I fail to see where it is a necessary evil. If the players who are supported by RMT suddenly disappeared I'm sure there would be some disruption because, unfortunately, the current state of the game is that some of the top-tier players are in that position due to RMT. RMT dependency is co-morbid with tool abuse, so some of the "Best" (read: most effective cheaters) would be gone. Stuff would get more difficult for some people who depended on that. But without them, the game can continue to develop properly, and we'll all be in a better place.

I reserve judgement on your point that RMT that aren't allowed to act without impunity might resort to other tactics, as I have no evidence, but if that is the case, that's why we need the STF on point - that's something that needs to be worked on actively.

[Pixela]

No one is advocating RMT, it's just something that cannot be stopped. and a necessary evil.

But the blantant shouting every 30 seconds, for entire months can and absolutely should be stopped.

Agreed, made a post about it.

[Sirmarki]

I'm not quite sure how to react to posts of people actively advocating RMT, buying gil and botting. It's a little shocking.

Exactly my thoughts.

I'd rather have no game, than a game full of RMT selling everything under the sun.
And let's be honest. There are many cases historically where games died a tragic death due to being overrun by cheats and RMT.

[Zehira]

When FFXI was new it was filled with people with more time than money, now FFXI is 16 years old it's filled with people with more money than time. Actually this is still true for almost any mmorpg in 2019 (as shown by ffxiv with its cash shop)

These people buy gil because they don't have time to farm it and they want to make progress on their REMA and whatever else so they effectively pay others to farm their gil for them, if RMT is abolished these people can't make progress (They aren't going to work less hours or not spend time with their kids to grind gil) so they will just quit playing. You know this is true because they buy it now, RMT would not exist if the demand was not there.

Exactly, thank you. Wait, I don't buy/sell gil.

The players I know quit to take a break or play FFXIV. Not to say they quit and will never come back. That's why we have discord to keep in touch with. The trouble is... some FFXI vets can be addicted to FFXIV.

[Alhanelem]

Not really. It works both ways. Everytime square has done something to thwart RMT they hurt the playerbase, and the playerbase gets smaller. It's an impossible battle.
I do not believe the playerbase has ever gotten smaller as a direct cause of SE doing anything about RMT. This is an incredibly dubious statement on your part.

[Alhanelem]

No one is advocating RMT, it's just something that cannot be stopped. and a necessary evil.

But the blantant shouting every 30 seconds, for entire months can and absolutely should be stopped.
I agree that it can not be completely stopped, however it is not "a necessary evil." Unless you're suggesting our community has so many gil buyers that we actually depend on them and that banning them would actually measurably affect player counts (which i don't believe for a second is the case), that statement makes no sense.

The majority of players are rule-abiding citizens of Vana'diel, more or less, and any direct decrease in population from banning such undesirable players and RMT bots would be completely worth it.

Rampant cheating has destroyed many games in existence. I haven't seen you provide a single example of a game that did a good job of suppressing RMT activity that was directly destroyed by those actions.


Also, FFXI is small potatoes for RMT companies. If it became lucrative for them to provide services in FFXI, it would be of little consequence to them, they'll just invade the next game that comes out, rather than attack FFXI or do some other crazy bullhonkey.

[Pixela]

Exactly, thank you. Wait, I don't buy/sell gil.

The players I know quit to take a break or play FFXIV. Not to say they quit and will never come back. That's why we have discord to keep in touch with. The trouble is... some FFXI vets can be addicted to FFXIV.

The same people who work against rmt on ffxi work against it on ffxiv.

[Isola]

I do not believe the playerbase has ever gotten smaller as a direct cause of SE doing anything about RMT. This is an incredibly dubious statement on your part.

Chocobo Blinkers, definitively got smaller.
Changed the way "claim" works by force delaying ability to claim; definitively got smaller.
Changed fishing, lost subs

Every time they do something to nerf money gain (hello sparks) they lose people.

[Alhanelem]

Chocobo Blinkers, definitively got smaller.
Changed the way "claim" works by force delaying ability to claim; definitively got smaller.
Changed fishing, lost subs

Every time they do something to nerf money gain (hello sparks) they lose people.
Nope, nope, and nope, especially the last one. The second one isn't even an RMT related thing, it was a fair play thing.

You mentioned two things that only a small number of players did in the first place, the population did not get measurably smaller as a direct result of any of them. I also don't know anyone who quit becuase they modified the claim system, except possibly the people who were abusing it. And those are players I'd be glad to see leaving.


Any change that makes the scum of the community leave is okay in my book. So what you're saying is more "SE shouldn't do anything about cheaters, they're a necessary evil" rather than "SE shouldn't do anything about RMT" for the same reason.

The community by and large doesn't want cheaters. And I completely disagree with your statement that the community in any of your examples got smaller by anything more than the bad players who were abusing those things and damaging/controllling the economy. The game was better for all three of those things happening.

[Isola]

It's not that they shouldn't, it's that they can't.

There is not a damn thing they can do without hurting everyone. You can get rid of them individually, which is what they do, but it takes 6 hours to get a brand new account to 99 and fully geared and generating money again.

They admitted a while ago sparks needed to be nerfed, but had no idea how to do it.

[Alhanelem]

It's not that they shouldn't, it's that they can't.

There is not a damn thing they can do without hurting everyone. You can get rid of them individually, which is what they do, but it takes 6 hours to get a brand new account to 99 and fully geared and generating money again.
While it is true that it is difficult to combat cheating without affecting people who don't cheat, that's just the way things are. It highlights the flaws in your systems.

It is preferable to simply punish people who cheat, rather than nerf systems to prevent cheating, however punishing cheaters requires more staff time than making changes that will reduce their number.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Allow me to quote what i said in another thread concerning sparks.

It didn't take long to deduce this simple solution:

I Proposed this -> { All equipment purchased with "Sparks" will receive a random stat augment applicable to the jobs that access user prerequisite. Example: Cloth armor sold from Sparks vendor with job listings for BLM/WHM/RDM/SCH/GEO/SMN could receive an augment of +INT or +MND based upon the level range bracket it's sold through.
New NPCs created that will remove any augment for the cost of X 100 the item's minimum equipment level. One placed in each city where sparks vendors are currently located. }

A NPC discriminates against items that have augments and will not purchase them with an active augment.

[Alhanelem]

Allow me to quote what i said in another thread concerning sparks.

It didn't take long to deduce this simple solution:

I Proposed this -> { All equipment purchased with "Sparks" will receive a random stat augment applicable to the jobs that access user prerequisite. Example: Cloth armor sold from Sparks vendor with job listings for BLM/WHM/RDM/SCH/GEO/SMN could receive an augment of +INT or +MND based upon the level range bracket it's sold through.
New NPCs created that will remove any augment for the cost of X 100 the item's minimum equipment level. One placed in each city where sparks vendors are currently located. }

A NPC discriminates against items that have augments and will not purchase them with an active augment. What does this have to do with the subject at hand? What problem is this meant to solve?

[Pixela]

A) the game has a very limited budget
B) they want to spend most of that budget and time making new content
c) tackling RMT is counter productive, controlling their actions is better (which is what they do)

Just play the game, only the next 3 years are guaranteed and funded.

[Alhanelem]

A) the game has a very limited budget
B) they want to spend most of that budget and time making new content
c) tackling RMT is counter productive, controlling their actions is better (which is what they do)

Just play the game, only the next 3 years are guaranteed and funded.
Nothing is guaranteed.

Also, the GM/STF staff is (part of) the same staff that handles FFXIV.

[Pixela]

Nothing is guaranteed.

Also, the GM/STF staff is (part of) the same staff that handles FFXIV.

Which "controls" the RMT, people are asking for things to be programmed into the game to stop them.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

It's not that they shouldn't, it's that they can't.

There is not a damn thing they can do without hurting everyone. You can get rid of them individually, which is what they do, but it takes 6 hours to get a brand new account to 99 and fully geared and generating money again.

They admitted a while ago sparks needed to be nerfed, but had no idea how to do it.


I was responding to this comment about sparks and how even Square-Enix believes sparks exploitation needs to be nerfed.

[Stompa]

I see a direct correlation between the Easyfication Of Everything in the last ten years, and the current RMT / Gilbuying / Merc dominion of the mainstream game.

I liked the game best in 2004 to 2009. It was highly stratified, and when you got level 75 with capped merits you felt proud of your achievement.

During the climb to 75 / capped merits, the inherent slowness of progress, meant that you were spending a lot of time talking to strangers in XP Parties. I made so many new friends around the planet Earth, just from chatting while resting MP between pulls.

These were real friendships, based on respect, and forged in adversity. I knew people as "that awesome PLD from that XP Party" etc. and I recognised their gaming skills and I always looked forward to partying with them again.

Similarly, skilling up combat and magic skills took ages, and I formed friendships in Skill Up Parties.

Also, camping lottery-pop NMs, could take all night, and I would chat to the people I was with, and we would become friends.

The end result of all this is that by the time I was level 75 with capped merits, and decent gear from NMs, I had interacted with a lot of people and made a lot of seriously deep and profound friendships based on shared values and memories of our heroic battles in our journey to end-game.

As such, at 75, I simply did not need Mercs. I had friends. I had a shared history with my friends. I wanted to continue adventuring with my friends. I had no time for Mercs or RMT or anything, because I would rather do stuff with my friends.

Today, a person can solo to 99 easily with Trusts and XP rings and so-called "special XP events." That person can spend the sparks on Skill Up books, and never need to join a skill-up party. They can solo 99% of missions and Quests.

The end result is that they have no friends, no shared memories of their heroic adventures together in the level 1-75 battles, no shared memories of Skill Up parties or NM-camping parties or helping out with Missions and Quests.

They are alone. Now they see RMT and Merc shouts. What choice do they have? They have no solid Friend Base to fall back on. They start to see RMT and Mercs as their only friends. Game Over.

My point, which I have said many times, is that Easy Mode sucks, and Adversity Forges Bonds. The slower, more difficult, and more skill-based game of 2004-2009, produced some of the most highly skilled gamers on Earth, and stout friendships forged in countless heroic battles from level 1 onwards.

This is not really relevant to FFXI anymore, as they have made their bed, they have charted the post-2010 Easyfication direction, and it is clearly a one-way process. This post of mine is more like a warning to future game developers. People like hard games, people like games of skill. People like to form lifelong friendships, which are forged in adversity and adventures, and are marked by acts of stalwart heroism.

I will forget all the shiny mega weapons, and the yellow Jobmaster stars, and Ambuscade, in a matter of weeks.

I will never forget those heroic Vana'diel adventuring memories that I shared with strangers, strangers who later became my dearest friends in life.

[Alhanelem]

I see a direct correlation between the Easyfication Of Everything in the last ten years, and the current RMT / Gilbuying / Merc dominion of the mainstream game.

This has little to do with anything getting easier. RMTs still leveled jobs and farmed crap for gil even back then, it just took a little longer. I remember seeing armies of BLMs with gibberish names in the dunes and other places back in the day.

[Isola]

Time is money, and ease of play makes it faster and more efficient to sell money. It's obviously directly related. The barrier to entry is much lower and significantly faster, therefor more appealing.

[Sirmarki]

I had friends. I had a shared history with my friends. I wanted to continue adventuring with my friends. I had no time for Mercs or RMT or anything, because I would rather do stuff with my friends.

Times have changed, but this is not an FFXI issue - This is an issue as a whole in society.
The introduction of social media has changed the face of communication among people. Social interaction is changing, for the worst, in my opinion.

[Sirmarki]

I remember seeing armies of BLMs with gibberish names in the dunes and other places back in the day.

As do I.....

https://i.imgur.com/fnDDObU.jpg

[Stompa]

This has little to do with anything getting easier. RMTs still leveled jobs and farmed crap for gil even back then, it just took a little longer. I remember seeing armies of BLMs with gibberish names in the dunes and other places back in the day.

Well, in this and other similar Lamenting The RMT Situation threads that currently festoon this forum, it is often mentioned that "RMT Robot Beastmasters Are Clearing Zones With Their Jugpets."

Back in the day, pre-Stout Servant (Easyfication) and pre- ILVL/Statvom and pre "Jugpets Are Now Siege Engines", I was a BST75 main job for about four years, every single day.

These RMT Jugpet-masters, not Beastmasters, they would not have survived five seconds in the level 75 BST job.

Level 75 BST was a religious experience. I physically prayed every time I pressed charm. I prayed that mobs would not turn around and notice a mis-charm nearby, and link up with the mis-charmed mob. Playing BST75 was a high-tension skill game, with a large slice of praying for mercy, thrown in.

RMT are famously bad at gaming. I used to see dead RMT in all the NM areas during the lvl 75 era. I would watch them getting owned by the most silly NMs.

RMT could never have survived as a BST75 in the 2004-2009 age, of charming mobs, kiting, pinning, pet-swaps. It took skill, patience, and nerves of steel, and of course a lot of praying.

But RMT can easily survive in 2019 with Jugpets That Are Like Indestructible Siege Engines.

Nobody is saying that RMT did not exist in the old game. What I'm saying is that it took them a lot longer to get to max level and capped skills and capped merits. They couldn't just build a new full-power character in a day. But now they can, because of Easyfication.

My original post was not even about this. It was about the lack of engagement and friendships, which is caused by this solo rocketship burn from 1-99. People are not engaging and making friends like they used to, and the reason is because the game is so much easier.

I hope people enjoy Trusts and Easy Mode gaming, I hope it brings them joy. It is just that I'm comparing it to my own experiences, which as I say, I have a lot of real adventuring memories in the level 1-75 range, both hilarious and heroic memories, and these experiences are being missed entirely in the new era.

[Alhanelem]

Well, in this and other similar Lamenting The RMT Situation threads that currently festoon this forum, it is often mentioned that "RMT Robot Beastmasters Are Clearing Zones With Their Jugpets."

Back in the day, pre-Stout Servant (Easyfication) and pre- ILVL/Statvom and pre "Jugpets Are Now Siege Engines", I was a BST75 main job for about four years, every single day.

These RMT Jugpet-masters, not Beastmasters, they would not have survived five seconds in the level 75 BST job.

Level 75 BST was a religious experience. I physically prayed every time I pressed charm. I prayed that mobs would not turn around and notice a mis-charm nearby, and link up with the mis-charmed mob. Playing BST75 was a high-tension skill game, with a large slice of praying for mercy, thrown in.

RMT are famously bad at gaming. I used to see dead RMT in all the NM areas during the lvl 75 era. I would watch them getting owned by the most silly NMs.

RMT could never have survived as a BST75 in the 2004-2009 age, of charming mobs, kiting, pinning, pet-swaps. It took skill, patience, and nerves of steel, and of course a lot of praying.

But RMT can easily survive in 2019 with Jugpets That Are Like Indestructible Siege Engines.

Nobody is saying that RMT did not exist in the old game. What I'm saying is that it took them a lot longer to get to max level and capped skills and capped merits. They couldn't just build a new full-power character in a day. But now they can, because of Easyfication.

My original post was not even about this. It was about the lack of engagement and friendships, which is caused by this solo rocketship burn from 1-99. People are not engaging and making friends like they used to, and the reason is because the game is so much easier.

I hope people enjoy Trusts and Easy Mode gaming, I hope it brings them joy. It is just that I'm comparing it to my own experiences, which as I say, I have a lot of real adventuring memories in the level 1-75 range, both hilarious and heroic memories, and these experiences are being missed entirely in the new era.


OK, first, that stuff you described about beastmaster wasn't fun at all and that's why the job wasn't ever very popular. Even in the best of circumstances as you described, you could just randomly be hosed by RNG. That's not challenging, that's just luck and bad game design. Now it's not fun for completely different reasons (i.e. being functionally unusable with the pet command changes), but either way, it wasn't fun and never will be for most people. Fighting with the random number generator is the least fun part of any game, except possibly the suspense factor of loot drops, that's okay.



By all means, go play something else, but there is so much dubiousness (stout servant is "easyfication?" what? That trait barely does anything) in your post it would take more time than I care to to address it all. Old content always gets easier as new content comes in MMOs, it's just how things go. If that bothers you too much, then maybe it's time to retire from them.

"Lack of engagements and friendships" isn't a fault of the game itself, it's a fault of how people play games today. People don't not interact less because the game is supposedly easier (it isn't, or mercs wouldn't be as prolific as they are), they do it less because of other factors, like smartphones and social media changing the ways we communicate.

[Stompa]

OK, first, that stuff you described about beastmaster wasn't fun at all and that's why the job wasn't ever very popular. Even in the best of circumstances as you described, you could just randomly be hosed by RNG. That's not challenging, that's just luck and bad game design. Now it's not fun for completely different reasons (i.e. being functionally unusable with the pet command changes), but either way, it wasn't fun and never will be for most people. Fighting with the random number generator is the least fun part of any game, except possibly the suspense factor of loot drops, that's okay.



By all means, go play something else, but there is so much dubiousness (stout servant is "easyfication?" what? That trait barely does anything) in your post it would take more time than I care to to address it all. Old content always gets easier as new content comes in MMOs, it's just how things go. If that bothers you too much, then maybe it's time to retire from them.

"Lack of engagements and friendships" isn't a fault of the game itself, it's a fault of how people play games today. People don't not interact less because the game is supposedly easier (it isn't, or mercs wouldn't be as prolific as they are), they do it less because of other factors, like smartphones and social media changing the ways we communicate.

You say, wrongly, that BST was never very popular. It was very popular with people who played BST. I was on an All Beastmaster Linkshell in 2004~2009. Everyone on the LS played BST full-time. Everybody loved the job. It was very popular.

If you say that BST was not popular in the mainstream game, that would be true. People didn't like to solo or low-man to level 75 on BST. It took ages and it involved a lot of death and delevelling.

But among actual BST players, the job was very popular. It was also an artform in of itself. There was a trapeze wire-balancing feel to it. It was graceful like ballet. It was not the brute-force thug job it is today. It was a specialised high-skill job, for people who knew how to play it. I loved playing it. All my friends loved playing it. It was a very exhilarating and beautiful job to play.

Regarding Stout Servant etc. I'm not going to rise to it. I've seen the difference on PUP, the week Stout Servant arrived.

Also, regarding Jugpets specifically, in the level 75 era, BST only used Jugs in BCNM, because there were no Charm mobs available. The only time BST used Jugpets outside BCNM, was as a 5-second stop-gap pet in between Charm mobs. You threw a Courrier Carrie at the NM while you ran towards the next Charm mob, and CC was obliterated in seconds, because Jugpets were weak. Are Jugpets weak today? No.

Regarding the random base Charm thing. You could obviously gear yourself to improve Charm success. Everything in FFXI was random-base. Today, my Jobmaster War with high accuracy gear and AG weapon missed a Bumblebee outside Windurst. Missed it twice. Base chances again.

Regarding "lack of engagement [not engagements] and friendship" this is actually what I said in my first post. New players who solo'd level 1-99 with Trusts and never made any friends in XP parties and mission parties etc. are much more vulnerable to Merc / RMT, because they do not have a group of friends with a shared adventuring history in the level 1-75 stage.

When a person just goes from level 1-99 without speaking to any other people, it leaves them isolated. The primary RMT and Merc business model is based largely on exploiting isolated vulnerable people who don't have a solid Friend Base.

[Alhanelem]

You say, wrongly, that BST was never very popular. It was very popular with people who played BST. I was on an All Beastmaster Linkshell in 2004~2009. Everyone on the LS played BST full-time. Everybody loved the job. It was very popular.Do you realkize just how silly of a statement this is? "It was popular with the people it was popular with." That's a meaningless statement. It wasn't popular at all with the playerbase at large, and even worse, most people who weren't BST hated ppl who played BST for taking up the mobs and stuff (there was an all BST LS on shiva that spent like 10 hours fighting tiamat back in the day, while all the normal people who could have done it in a fraction of the time sat there all day hoping for them to wipe)


What you say is akin to me saying that Belligerency was popular because it was "popular" with me and the two other people I know that did it. Who am I kidding, of course it wasn't popular. But apparently anything can be popular if you ignore everyone that doesn't do something.



When a person just goes from level 1-99 without speaking to any other people, it leaves them isolated. The primary RMT and Merc business model is based largely on exploiting isolated vulnerable people who don't have a solid Friend Base. "friend base" is not a proper noun and shouldn't be capitalized. You sound like some other really famous person I've heard of that does the same thing.... It's funny you talk about people being isolated when you speak of playing a highly solo-focused job, which most people played solo. Yet you would suggest you don't personally have this "friend base" vulnerability that supposedly exists.

I've spent the bulk of my time in the game playing solo, only grouping where I had to to progress. And I didn't have any "friend base" problems, nor have I sought out mercs or RMT. The people who use these things are just people who have more money than they know what to do with. Normal people don't use this stuff, regardless of what you believe.

Finally- most of these changes, like the introduciton of Trusts and such, were created to make the game more playable with the lower populations. They aren't the cause of these problems, rather they are the result of them.



Regarding Stout Servant etc. I'm not going to rise to it. I've seen the difference on PUP, the week Stout Servant arrived. I was there too. It was an extremely modest improvement, and ididn't make the jobs "easy", just a tiny bit less frustrating. You vastly overstate the impact this had.

[Stompa]

Do you realkize just how silly of a statement this is? "It was popular with the people it was popular with." That's a meaningless statement. It wasn't popular at all with the playerbase at large, and even worse, most people who weren't BST hated ppl who played BST for taking up the mobs and stuff (there was an all BST LS on shiva that spent like 10 hours fighting tiamat back in the day, while all the normal people who could have done it in a fraction of the time sat there all day hoping for them to wipe)


I'm truly very sorry if you or others were inconvenienced by inconsiderate BST who killed an NM slowly like that, or stole mobs near where you were having an XP party. I am sorry that you had those negative experiences.

I always XPed on BST in remote areas, far away from popular mainstream XP camps. I never slowly solo'd NMs that other people were actually waiting to zerg quickly. A girl on my LS was supposedly the first person to solo Xolotl on BST, but she waited until the area was empty and claimed the mob just before dawn despawn. So nobody was inconvenienced.

Once again I am truly sorry that you had those negative experiences at the hands of inconsiderate BST players.

On my BST, I helped hundreds, perhaps thousands, of non-BST with their AF coffer keys, Dark Spark, LB1~LB2~LB3 and farming Testimonies, farming Haku Eyes, etc. I liked helping people on my BST.

However, the 2019 JugpetMaster RMT who are emptying the Seekers starting zones, with their mighty Jugpets and their robot programs, and which is the subject of multiple complaint threads on this forum right now, they could not have done this using charmed mobs at level 75, it takes time and skill to fight using charmed mobs, and the intended target is always one enemy, rather than mass-pulling / mass-AOEing the whole Seekers area.

RE; "popular." On my LS we all had WHM75 and BRD75 and other jobs at 75. We chose to play BST75 main. Out of a list of possible 75 jobs that we had to choose from, BST was the most *popular* choice among our group.



"friend base" is not a proper noun and shouldn't be capitalized. You sound like some other really famous person I've heard of that does the same thing

English is not my first language. English is actually my fourth language. Also I was born with Cerebral Palsy, and I often type things in ways that make total sense to me, but perhaps not to others. I am deeply sorry if this has inconvenienced you.


Finally- most of these changes, like the introduciton of Trusts and such, were created to make the game more playable with the lower populations. They aren't the cause of these problems, rather they are the result of them.

I have praised SE on this forum for many of the post-2010 QOL things, especially /lockstyleset for wearing costumes over battle armour, and base movement speed increases. I have praised them for RoV, and indeed Copper Vouchers, and Raaz Mounts.

But my humble opinion is that many players are very isolated in the new game, and this makes them more likely to feel they need RMT or Mercs. It is just my opinion. It is one thing to be a solo player by choice, and it is another to be a solo player by default.

[Sirmarki]

Do you realkize just how silly of a statement this is? "It was popular with the people it was popular with." That's a meaningless statement. It wasn't popular at all with the playerbase at large, and even worse, most people who weren't BST hated ppl who played BST for taking up the mobs and stuff (there was an all BST LS on shiva that spent like 10 hours fighting tiamat back in the day, while all the normal people who could have done it in a fraction of the time sat there all day hoping for them to wipe)


What you say is akin to me saying that Belligerency was popular because it was "popular" with me and the two other people I know that did it. Who am I kidding, of course it wasn't popular. But apparently anything can be popular if you ignore everyone that doesn't do something.


"friend base" is not a proper noun and shouldn't be capitalized. You sound like some other really famous person I've heard of that does the same thing.... It's funny you talk about people being isolated when you speak of playing a highly solo-focused job, which most people played solo. Yet you would suggest you don't personally have this "friend base" vulnerability that supposedly exists.

I've spent the bulk of my time in the game playing solo, only grouping where I had to to progress. And I didn't have any "friend base" problems, nor have I sought out mercs or RMT. The people who use these things are just people who have more money than they know what to do with. Normal people don't use this stuff, regardless of what you believe.

Finally- most of these changes, like the introduciton of Trusts and such, were created to make the game more playable with the lower populations. They aren't the cause of these problems, rather they are the result of them.


I was there too. It was an extremely modest improvement, and ididn't make the jobs "easy", just a tiny bit less frustrating. You vastly overstate the impact this had.

They are just expression their opinion dude.

To be honest, I wouldn't criticise their English when your post is full of grammar issues and spelling mistakes.

[Alhanelem]

They are just expression their opinion dude.



You're right, they can express their opinion and I can express mine and disagree with theirs if I want. That's one of the key functions of a forum- discussing issues and presenting opinions. Why do you have a problem with this?

[Alhanelem]

I'm truly very sorry if you or others were inconvenienced by inconsiderate BST who killed an NM slowly like that, or stole mobs near where you were having an XP party. I am sorry that you had those negative experiences.

I always XPed on BST in remote areas, far away from popular mainstream XP camps. I never slowly solo'd NMs that other people were actually waiting to zerg quickly. A girl on my LS was supposedly the first person to solo Xolotl on BST, but she waited until the area was empty and claimed the mob just before dawn despawn. So nobody was inconvenienced.

Once again I am truly sorry that you had those negative experiences at the hands of inconsiderate BST players. I'm glad that you tried to set a good example for the BST community. It was a common problem, but I didn't mean to suggest every single one was like that.



English is not my first language. English is actually my fourth language. Also I was born with Cerebral Palsy, and I often type things in ways that make total sense to me, but perhaps not to others. I am deeply sorry if this has inconvenienced you.I respect you for coming forward with that, and I accept your explanation. I am on the autism spectrum myself so I can be a bit callous or socially insensitive. (I do know certain people who do the Extra Capitals on purpose, and it reminded me of that, but I apologize for the accusation.)




RE; "popular." On my LS we all had WHM75 and BRD75 and other jobs at 75. We chose to play BST75 main. Out of a list of possible 75 jobs that we had to choose from, BST was the most *popular* choice among our group. You just need to be careful to qualify these kinds of statements- Popularity within a circle of friends is different from popularity with the entire community.


I have praised SE on this forum for many of the post-2010 QOL things, especially /lockstyleset for wearing costumes over battle armour, and base movement speed increases. I have praised them for RoV, and indeed Copper Vouchers, and Raaz Mounts.I'm not trying to suggest that you're trying to beat up on SE, I just disagree on this particular issue that they can't/shouldn't try to do anything about RMT because of the possible impacts elsewhere. Most people who don't cheat or exploit things don't want to play with people who do. If we make the population smaller by removing undesirable aspects of the community, I think the typical rule-abiding player is happy with that.


But my humble opinion is that many players are very isolated in the new game, and this makes them more likely to feel they need RMT or Mercs. It is just my opinion. It is one thing to be a solo player by choice, and it is another to be a solo player by default. I understand how you feel but I think there's enough things you can't realistically do yourself (or that you can do more easily and quickly with others) that this isn't a major cause of the issue. Every game has mercing and RMT. Go ahead and look at FFXIV, open the Party Finder, and you can probably find at least a half dozen listings of people "selling content" at any given time. I haven't seen evidence yet that ti's particularly worse here.

[Seriha]

Merc'ing existed before all this recent stuff. Hell, the Salvage bans were pretty much predicated on holier than thou people doing it back in the day while exploiting the loot system. It also existed in other forms like Hakutaku fights, ODS KSBCs, Dynamis clears, and more. It's also rather disingenuous to assert that people taking advantage of this lacked friends or social connections, when I could easily suggest they all couldn't play at the same time, had incompatible job combos for whatever particular event, were in different phases of progression, and so on. There's no hard and fast rule that states anyone that shares in suffering through some event winds up a buddy, either. For every good player we may have met, there were countless others we actively forgot due to mediocrity or intentional dislike. As is the common risk with group content, however, the more bodies you require, the more difficult you make it for people without an active, organized group of their own. And that's before factoring in things like job discrimination in focus, where you might not have had people really interested in farming Shen for Reverend Mails for WHMs, but if it was something they could've personally benefited from? Different tune. Lord knows I had to endure the "Just solo it!" mentality on RDM whenever I'd ask for help to make things go more quickly and safely.


So, yeah, let's not pretend everyone is suddenly socially inept and that this is really just MMO equivalent generational "Get off my lawn!"-ism. People hate wasting time. That wasn't new then, and certainly not now. Unfortunately, to counter the merc game, players actually need better tools at their disposal to hook them up with like-minded players across the multiple servers. A few shouts now and then probably won't cut it. People in more established groups are also less likely to take in a random newbie to be nice. No, they're going to want equally geared/skilled or better players to make their own profitability rise for the activities they want to do in their time. Otherwise, you pretty much need those obscene amounts of gil to coax them from their own little circles. The harder the content and rarer the drops, the worse it gets.


That said, RMT never is, was, or will be beneficial to the game, as there is a high probability that anyone who did partake were simply lining the coffers of those that created the financial problems to begin with. Would we have never had sushi on the AH without them? Maybe not as cheap, but you also had make fishing a profitable activity legit players would actually want to do. Same for shihei or whatever else basically boiled down to mundane, repetitive actions in order to produce. Bonus points if they could cheat to do it like bot or position hack. The actual complexity of the task was very rarely a concern with those in mind, too. Sure, we maybe had a laugh about how long it took RMTs to kill Kirin or something, but they were still doing it. And keeping us from doing it at the same time. To otherwise imply it's impossible to handle them comes off more as a lack of willingness to try. And it's not just about reacting. It's also about creating environments where they can't thrive. And as long as things like RMEAs exist in XI as a pinnacle, RMT will always have a calling. I'd say SE dropped the ball here by not phasing them out with Adoulin's launch.

[Sirmarki]

You're right, they can express their opinion and I can express mine and disagree with theirs if I want. That's one of the key functions of a forum- discussing issues and presenting opinions. Why do you have a problem with this?

I agree. However you appear to be borderline attacking them personally in some respects.

[Sirmarki]

Merc'ing existed before all this recent stuff.

Yes it did. Behind the scenes in small numbers. I never saw it once in yell or shout on Fenrir years back.

Mercing has had a derogatory affect on the game, and it's really starting to show now. It's so widespread that it's literately leaving nothing for people to do who look for pick-up groups.
People buy stuff, return to town, repeat. They don't have to join/form any party for content, because they can just 'buy it'.

SE release a brand new challenging battle - merc does it, shouts 'xyx in pool, buy now?' player buys it, no need to join that battle ever again. Removes a person from that content. That person also has no clue on how the battle strategy plays out, they stood there, did nothing, and got the reward. How ridiculous is that!?

I've been watching yell closely for content shouts on the busiest server over the last three days and there has been virtually nil. The entire yell is mercs and RMT.
It's also an area linked to a lot of cheating, violations of ToS and links to RMT.

[Alhanelem]

Yes it did. Behind the scenes in small numbers. I never saw it once in yell or shout on Fenrir years back.

Mercing has had a derogatory affect on the game, and it's really starting to show now. It's so widespread that it's literately leaving nothing for people to do who look for pick-up groups.
People buy stuff, return to town, repeat. They don't have to join/form any party for content, because they can just 'buy it'.

SE release a brand new challenging battle - merc does it, shouts 'xyx in pool, buy now?' player buys it, no need to join that battle ever again. Removes a person from that content. That person also has no clue on how the battle strategy plays out, they stood there, did nothing, and got the reward. How ridiculous is that!?

I've been watching yell closely for content shouts on the busiest server over the last three days and there has been virtually nil. The entire yell is mercs and RMT.
It's also an area linked to a lot of cheating, violations of ToS and links to RMT.It was never "behind the scenes." it happened all the time. Perhaps it's a bit more blatant, but it's nothing new nor was it rare.

[Seriha]

I'd also posit it seems more obvious between /yell, sites tracking that stuff now, and a general lack of other conversation taking place in between. I'd argue the common, insular nature of linkshell groups has done more damage to the community than people selling off clears/loot. Why help a stranger when you have no guarantee they'll just get theirs and bounce? Or at least hope they're not dead weight? I've also run into people who refuse to help returnees because they'll just be gone again soon. Such are among the reasons why I feel SE made a mistake trying to go back to alliance, or at least larger group content with Voidwatch and eventually Adoulin. No one ever really wanted to trust people they didn't know to do content that likely wasn't fun to begin with, it was just "strongly encouraged" because some buy a bit too much into the MMO hype despite how selfish people tend to be. This is just the eventual result of stagnant content development and otherwise giving no real incentive for people who don't need things to help.

[Pixela]

That said, RMT never is, was, or will be beneficial to the game, as there is a high probability that anyone who did partake were simply lining the coffers of those that created the financial problems to begin with. Would we have never had sushi on the AH without them? Maybe not as cheap, but you also had make fishing a profitable activity legit players would actually want to do. Same for shihei or whatever else basically boiled down to mundane, repetitive actions in order to produce. Bonus points if they could cheat to do it like bot or position hack. The actual complexity of the task was very rarely a concern with those in mind, too. Sure, we maybe had a laugh about how long it took RMTs to kill Kirin or something, but they were still doing it. And keeping us from doing it at the same time. To otherwise imply it's impossible to handle them comes off more as a lack of willingness to try. And it's not just about reacting. It's also about creating environments where they can't thrive. And as long as things like RMEAs exist in XI as a pinnacle, RMT will always have a calling. I'd say SE dropped the ball here by not phasing them out with Adoulin's launch.

Almost all mmorpg companies disagree with you, as I said before they manage RMT instead of banning them because they understand that is the best policy.

At the end of the day, their customers want to buy gil because many of them have more money than time.

[Alhanelem]

Almost all mmorpg companies disagree with you, as I said before they manage RMT instead of banning them because they understand that is the best policy.

At the end of the day, their customers want to buy gil because many of them have more money than time.
All MMORPG companies don't want RMT in their game. Those that choose to "manage" it do so because it's easier and makes them extra money by being RMT themselves (just that money can go back into the game if they want it to). But if anything, game time tokens and the like don't really do anything other than sanction RMT behavior (it just limits how much they can charge)- it still happens, just players have an " official" option that makes them feel like less of a scumbag.
But if they could eliminate outside RMT, they would, because it isn't good for the game and most honest players revile it.

[Numquam]

If the RMT aren't annoying anyone except with the shouts then let them be. I'm sure they gotta eat, too. What irks me are are the constant garbage shouts from people that think they are trolls. When the shouts are racist or sexist or promote suicide I log off for the day. Asura shouts just suck.

[Sirmarki]

If the RMT aren't annoying anyone except with the shouts then let them be. I'm sure they gotta eat, too. What irks me are are the constant garbage shouts from people that think they are trolls. When the shouts are racist or sexist or promote suicide I log off for the day. Asura shouts just suck.

Which is why we need instant moderation of the yell channel. I have never been to a forum or place of public discussion that doesn't have some form of live moderation.
Otherwise toxic yells spiral out of control and just escalate further and further making the game toxic. Nip it in the bud so to speak.

I know exactly where you are coming from. I too have logged off simply due to the mind numbing/offensive/political nonsense that flies down my screen.
I have no option to block it, my /blist is full, and if I turn /yell off, I'm cutting myself out of the 'possible' (although seemly rare these days) content yells (*cough* everything has been or is being "merced").

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Again i will link to a relevant topic on FFXI forums that discusses the current situation with FFXI in-game communications and pollution.

I left a multitude of logical innovations that SE if they choose to do so can implement. All of which would be beneficial in regards to honest players interacting more with other honest players and avoiding the unwanted spam perpetrated by scoundrels and RMT.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/55787-Please-clean-up-the-RMT-yell-frenzy

[VoiceMemo]

Isn't more the elephant in the room that no one is talking about is WHERE the gil that these people who are buying stuff from merc are coming from. Most likely it is BOUGHT gil, which is against SE Terms of Service. If they didn't have the gil, they couldn't buy from merc.

As lets face it, anyone with alot of gil that is legitimate either already has the gear or is well geared enough that they can do the events to obtain new gear and not have to pay merc to obtain them.

So it again either comes down to enforcement by SE, upbringing of individual(ie thinks it's ok to buy gil), or the community as a whole(that gilbuying seems accepted and not shamed anymore)

[Alhanelem]

Could we just add an "Add to Blacklist" (and friend list) option to the context menu you get when selecting somebody's chat in the full log window? This feature was added to the game a while back (something that FFXIV had day 1 so I was glad to see it) and h as options to send tells, target, or join their party, but it seems logical that an "add to blacklist" button should be there.

[Pixela]

Isn't more the elephant in the room that no one is talking about is WHERE the gil that these people who are buying stuff from merc are coming from. Most likely it is BOUGHT gil, which is against SE Terms of Service. If they didn't have the gil, they couldn't buy from merc.

As lets face it, anyone with alot of gil that is legitimate either already has the gear or is well geared enough that they can do the events to obtain new gear and not have to pay merc to obtain them.

So it again either comes down to enforcement by SE, upbringing of individual(ie thinks it's ok to buy gil), or the community as a whole(that gilbuying seems accepted and not shamed anymore)

I can't believe you can be this ignorant at how easy it is to make gil on ffxi. You have no idea at all what you're talking about with what you just typed so just stop.

It's really easy to make a few million gil to buy a drop from a merc.

[Pixela]

Which is why we need instant moderation of the yell channel. I have never been to a forum or place of public discussion that doesn't have some form of live moderation.
Otherwise toxic yells spiral out of control and just escalate further and further making the game toxic. Nip it in the bud so to speak.

I know exactly where you are coming from. I too have logged off simply due to the mind numbing/offensive/political nonsense that flies down my screen.
I have no option to block it, my /blist is full, and if I turn /yell off, I'm cutting myself out of the 'possible' (although seemly rare these days) content yells (*cough* everything has been or is being "merced").

No, their shouts should be classified as spam IF they are spamming. Nothing else, what you just suggested is the start of a slippery slope where everyone gets muted over anything.

RMT shouts happen, but if they start spamming on cooldown then they should be stopped for spam alone.

[Alhanelem]

No, their shouts should be classified as spam IF they are spamming. Nothing else, what you just suggested is the start of a slippery slope where everyone gets muted over anything.

RMT shouts happen, but if they start spamming on cooldown then they should be stopped for spam alone.

All we really need is a fast and easy (and legitimate) way to silence these players client side. As I'd suggested elsewhere, a context menu command to add someone to your blacklist when you select someone's chat in the log window, similar to how other MMOs allow you to click on someone's name in the chat to perform actions on them (i.e., right click > blacklist)

[VoiceMemo]

I can't believe you can be this ignorant at how easy it is to make gil on ffxi. You have no idea at all what you're talking about with what you just typed so just stop.

It's really easy to make a few million gil to buy a drop from a merc.

I'm not talking about the ones that pay 1-2 mil for PL, I'm talking about people that spend 20m to 50m on a single gear

[Coffeegood]

Its almost impossible right now to get a decent CP party, every zone is FILLED to the brim with RMT botters selling JP! and with the CONSTANT yelling in towns of people advertising their websites for buying gil what the hell is anyone doing about it? I dont even want to try to master a job right now because it's a battle to compete against botters pulling mobs.

we need a john wick GM!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/55179-RMT-everywhere?p=620091#post620091

[Pixela]

We really need to stop out of this mindset that everyone selling things are RMT, mercing is a legit form of gil making to build rema and things you know?

Sure some are, sure some are even 4-5 boxing but that doesn't meant they are rmt.

[Alhanelem]

We really need to stop out of this mindset that everyone selling things are RMT, mercing is a legit form of gil making to build rema and things you know?

Sure some are, sure some are even 4-5 boxing but that doesn't meant they are rmt.
Mercing is only RMT if they're charging real money. Which has been known to happen.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Regardless of whether or not a FFXI account is being used for RMT purposes the utilization of 3rd party programs to script automated farming, resource claims and/or enemy claims especially within shared zones is a major ToS violation that incurs a penalty of permanent account termination should SE elect to investigate properly.

[Pixela]

Regardless of whether or not a FFXI account is being used for RMT purposes the utilization of 3rd party programs to script automated farming, resource claims and/or enemy claims especially within shared zones is a major ToS violation that incurs a penalty of permanent account termination should SE elect to investigate properly.

Windower is a 3rd party tool, be careful what you wish for cause you might just get it.

Again, is SE were to listen to someone like you the game would be dead in a week. The goal is to enforce the rules with an even hand and not a zero tolerance hand.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

I do not use windower. To the best of my knowledge from conversations i have been privy to; there is nothing within the basic interface of windower that creates or implements "Bots".

@ Pixela: Wrong perception about ToS. ToS is supreme as it concerns FFXI conduct. Staffing levels and financial resources directed towards FFXI by SE being low is the true culprit why those who violate ToS are not properly jailed or having their accounts terminated.
The apathy of SE, player leadership and population at large as it concerns to blatant cheating is the reason subscriptions became and remain dismal.
When exactly did you first install FFXI? Have you ever qualified for end game content ever? Just how many hours have you given deep thought and philosophical analysis of the complex consequences and interactions of honest vs corrupt behavior? My guesses would be years after WotG expansion, no or just barely recent and a fraction of an hour or none. For those interested; I am a true original resident on the Asura server since North America launch (That means Zilart, well before CoP). I have witnessed the vast amount of infestations of corruption throughout all facets of content. The highest popularity of FFXI occurred when players had content and an environment that they considered to be fair and evenly equalized for each character. I can not emphasize this position any more clearly; FFXI is not a single player concept, FFXI is not a concept where cheaters are interned within their own seperate environment. ToS violations within a MMO title have detrimental consequences that adversely influence the gaming atmosphere that everyone else on that server is connecting to. These are the facts.

[Zehira]

Thank you all for your opinions and information.

Asura is supposed to be my home server since I originally started on Pandemonium in 2003. I remember I paid my dad a lot of quarters to get that game because I wasn't old enough to have my own credit card. I was so lost and stuck in Port San O'dria for hours. I imagined how big this Vana'diel is going to be when I entered West Ronfaure for the first time. In 2004, I moved to PS2 for a better experience because my PC sucked. In 2006, I moved to Xbox 360 for better graphics (couldn't play Besieged with that lousy port). I was a leader of Japanese exp party a lot (thanks to my unique name I guess) but that should explain my ability to play without Windower.

In 2009, I came back to PC. Unfortunately, 2009 was definitely the worst year for both Square Enix and players. I lost my account to a RMT hacker. I detected a keylogger inside a hidden iFrame tag in the outdated HTML official webpage, PlayOnline.com. Even though, Firefox's NoScript can prevent that. I called SE and explained to them that I am the owner of that stolen account. After many days of waiting, they emailed me stating that my account already got banhammered and can't be restored without a confirmation code (I didn't have one?). Oh well, I should have registered my security token sooner though. I wasn't surprised why Square Enix got sued for $5 million dollars by their players.

In 2010, I decided to come back with my new account on a different server and didn't know where Pandemonium was after it got merged with Asura. I became a glorious PC gaming master race and my hair was so pure white enough to end the console service. I can run multiple FFXI clients and FFXIV on the same machine. Just you know how old and low specs FFXI is. Both games run off my 3.0 USB flash drive. Just plug and play. FFXI will be registered on the registry automatically if needed so I keep all my macros, synthesis history, AH's sorted list and more without needing to spend so many hours reinstalling and updating the game. I am genius right? (laughs)

To be honest, I wouldn't come back but all thanks to the QoL updates my process got so much faster. While FFXI isn't FFXI it used to be, I personally think multi-boxing is a new experience and biggest challenge I want to do for my linkshell members whether we run Ambuscade or farm Divergence. Therefore, having two characters require time to gain gil to improve my equipment. I know I am not alone doing that!

I am sorry, I speak mainly in my native sign language. I truly thanked FFXI's community for improving my English skills. :o

[Alhanelem]

I wasn't surprised why Square Enix got sued for $5 million dollars by their players.
Citations please? I'm not aware of any lawsuit tied to RMT bans.

[Isola]

25 June 2009
According to the Courthouse News Service, Square Enix is being sued by a customer for not being open about the fees and late-payment penalties for playing its MMO Final Fantasy XI.

Esther Leong from San Francisco has brought a class action lawsuit against the US arm of the Japanese RPG giant, claiming that Square Enix deceived 100,000 customers by lying about or concealing "its monthly fees, penalties for late payments, interest, restrictions, and other things that should have been fully disclosed at points of purchase".

The suit seeks damages of over USD 5 million on behalf of players and alleges "unfair business practices, false advertising, and unjust enrichment".

[Alhanelem]

25 June 2009
According to the Courthouse News Service, Square Enix is being sued by a customer for not being open about the fees and late-payment penalties for playing its MMO Final Fantasy XI.

Esther Leong from San Francisco has brought a class action lawsuit against the US arm of the Japanese RPG giant, claiming that Square Enix deceived 100,000 customers by lying about or concealing "its monthly fees, penalties for late payments, interest, restrictions, and other things that should have been fully disclosed at points of purchase".

The suit seeks damages of over USD 5 million on behalf of players and alleges "unfair business practices, false advertising, and unjust enrichment".What does this have to do with RMT? Nothing. It's about improper practices related to service fees. It further has nothing to do with your issue. (that "confirmation code" had nothing to do with a security token btw, its something that gets sent to your registered email)

(Also, a lawsuit being filed doesn't mean the filers won. Something smells really funny here because SE doesn't and never did charge late fees. They simply deactivate your account if payment fails, until you provide a working payment method.)

[Isola]

He never said it had anything to do with RMT

Never said they won either. Just that they were sued. (they lost, by the way)

[Pixela]

Stop complaining about RMT and play the game, they are nowhere near as big a problem as you think they are.

[Alhanelem]

I'm seeing people quit over RMT going unpunished. You're wrong.
Stop complaining about RMT and play the game, they are nowhere near as big a problem as you think they are.

[Alhanelem]

He never said it had anything to do with RMT

Never said they won either. Just that they were sued. (they lost, by the way)
Of course they did. SE CS may be hit or miss but they haven't lied about payment issues. Late fees were never a thing lol (Perhaps they're really talking about chargebacks? I don't know.... But SE's policy is basically the same on that os other MMO makers- you can't play til you resolve the chargeback.

[Isola]

I'm seeing people quit over RMT going unpunished. You're wrong.

No one is quitting because of RMT. You see a bunch of whiners making empty threats, but they're still here posting all the time. People are quitting because its 20 years old and there is a noticeable content drought.

They are justified complaints though, crafting spheres and actual armies of bots with 24/7 RMT shouting is not a good look for SE.

Rank the reasons people quit ffxi
Bored/Better games
Don't want to play on asura, but home server is ghost town
"Asura"
Absolutely no job balance/SMN burn/bandwagon the current "best"/Meta onry
Crafting system is broken bottom to top
"got everything" come back when theres new stuff and quit again
and at the bottom is RMT

[Pixela]

I'm seeing people quit over RMT going unpunished. You're wrong.

No you're not, you're seeing people quitting over other reasons and saying it's that. That's human nature.

Back in the day if someone said they were quitting over RMT dominating in sky and nobody else was able to farm sky triggers then I would give complaints some credit, that directly impacted the game and stopped you doing content.

RMT these days is just a visual annoyance if you're looking for it, they don't have a big negative impact on the game at all.

Normal people.
"these flowers are so pretty and they smell lovely"
Weirdos
"no, the bee is buzzing! look at the bees, the noise!! the bees ruin it, I'm leaving because of the bees!"

[Sirmarki]

No one is quitting because of RMT. You see a bunch of whiners making empty threats, but they're still here posting all the time. People are quitting because its 20 years old and there is a noticeable content drought.

One of the reasons I cancelled is because mercs dominate content (aswell as bots/rmt/cheats blah blah). No players are getting together anymore so it seems, because mercing has become the new norm. I mean people merc (and sell) items from even the likes of Tenzen. I've raised by concerns over it before, bending of the treasure pool and such. If people want to play that way, and thats the style of game they like, then so be it. I just won't be a part of it.



Rank the reasons people quit ffxi
Bored/Better games
Don't want to play on asura, but home server is ghost town
"Asura"
Absolutely no job balance/SMN burn/bandwagon the current "best"/Meta onry
Crafting system is broken bottom to top
"got everything" come back when theres new stuff and quit again
and at the bottom is RMT

These generally aren't my reasons for un-subbing. I don't play a newer game, and I actually liked FFXI and would of carried on playing, if it wasn't for the reasons I've already stated.
The final push for me was seeing an entire LS I was in justify botting, as if someone that doesn't do it is in the wrong and not "normal"... I was backed into a corner.

The game balance is way off, and it's not for job adjustments or anything like that - It's down to a degree of players contributing to the downfall with actions that don't exist in the retail version of FFXI.

I'm sure I'm not alone in my thoughts. Of course, everybody's patience levels vary - mine ran out.

[Sirmarki]

RMT these days is just a visual annoyance if you're looking for it, they don't have a big negative impact on the game at all.

Are you sure about that?

They have a derogatory effect on the game. Money generated from RMT in real life generally doesn't go to good causes whatsoever.
I mean there are entire threads of new/current people trying to exp or other and have 30 RMT running in circles all over the zones?
I know, I've seen it more times than I care to mention.

I suggest reading through some of of the Japanese threads with 30~40 likes completely contradicting what you are saying.

[Isola]

Ok so there is a distinction between botting and RMT. While they are not exclusive, there is a difference.

RMT itself is just the visual annoyance. While it has negative impact, it has equally positive impact, seriously. Just having extra gil that you want to "share" and generating more gives you a reason to keep playing for example. The way that these particular RMT choose to generate gil (botting spheres) is a problem. If they were not blocking actual content like mission progress, it would be completely inconsequential. If someone wanted to go farm slug eyes in foret 24/7 it would only be a positive. No one would ever go kill those, they add eyes to the AH for coalitions, they sell to players who are to lazy to earn. Absolutely no downside.

Who do you think keeps the entirety of the synthesis materials on the AH? Bots. And who buys the products? RMT. They move the game. Undeniably.

[Alhanelem]

No you're not, you're seeing people quitting over other reasons and saying it's that.
Are you really being serious here? What would these people's motiviations be to lie about something like this? You have no credibility, I would take almost anybody's word over yours.

Seriously, just give it up, nobody buys your nonsense about banning RMT being a bad thing. I don't want more players if they're all cheaters, and I don't think any other legitimate player does either.


RMT are more than just a visual annoyance, they in many cases disrupt the ability of legitimate players to play the game normally, thus pressuring them to buy gil to pay them to do the things that they're being prevented from doing. You're living in a fantasy land if you think the only annoyance presented by the RMT is the shouts/yelling.



Ok so there is a distinction between botting and RMT. While they are not exclusive, there is a difference.The only distinction is you don't have to be RMT to bot, while most if not all RMTs are botters. Yes, botting doesn't automatically mean you're RMT, but that doesn't mean it's any less undesireable.

[Kalimairo]

No you're not, you're seeing people quitting over other reasons and saying it's that. That's human nature.

Back in the day if someone said they were quitting over RMT dominating in sky and nobody else was able to farm sky triggers then I would give complaints some credit, that directly impacted the game and stopped you doing content.

RMT these days is just a visual annoyance if you're looking for it, they don't have a big negative impact on the game at all.

Normal people.
"these flowers are so pretty and they smell lovely"
Weirdos
"no, the bee is buzzing! look at the bees, the noise!! the bees ruin it, I'm leaving because of the bees!"

No and yes, RMT's Back than did not sell you a relic for 50 dollars, everything was very expensive and RMT's couldn't farm you merits too i honestly blame the new updates on windower for gearswaps and lua botting, for all of this crap. Even the players are botting 24/7 during campaigns. RMT Sky is nothing compared to what we have now, atleast than 100 million was what like 1300 dollars or more? now its 30 or 50 or something like that. I think Square has to bann windower, they were right about it all these years, if you cant play A PC game without addons and auto generated scripts PLEASE PLAY A MOBILE GAME, am sick of what people have made online MMO into. Skills dont matter anymore your ingame macros gearset dont unless you have gearswaps, this game is really in a bad state right now, and no il never stop paying for this game or quit, but this windower needs to ***** go its so easy to program human like botts these days with updated windower + lua files, SQUARE NEEDS TO RECREATE A WHOLE NEW UI AND BANN WINDOWER dislike as much as you want i dont care this is concreet proof why the botts are rampant. Thank god i moved out of Asura that server is plagued by botts. thats why people dont want to yell and do content other than BUY BUY BUY BUY GEAR and thats a reason why i would want to play in an official classic server, Atleast than your gill and grouping up has meaning TIME=gear.