General Musings on Community and Causality

[Tamarsamar]

This thread was inspired by looking at Magian Complaint thread #9002. Specifically, the complaint was about weapon trials (in general). I couldn't help but remember, "gosh, these Magian things were hot stuff when they were first introduced." Distinctly, I remember complaints that (barring Relic and Mythic Weapons) previously existing weapons (and later, armor) were not compatible with the system, thus rendering them outdated (and later, utterly obliterated with the advent of Empyrean equipment).

Fast-forward a few updates, you start seeing the average player getting rather tired with "fetch quest number umpteen," with even something as utterly unrelated to weapon and armor augmenting as job-specific emotes! With the advent of the official forums, this leads to, among other things, Magian Complaint thread #9002, as well as the 9001 Magian Complaint threads before it.

Going back to my flashback on the early days of Magian Trials, it occurred to me that the dominant equipment of ages past are finally going to be augmentable after all--randomly through Synergy. I wonder if the community, through gripes of "too many things" being thrown in to the otherwise well-implemented Magian system, unintentionally begot themselves an inferior option, lacking in either choice or control, for upgrading their old, rare equipment . . .

Then again, probably not, since S-E seems to lack enough discretion about player complaints about the Magian system to throw further Adventuring Fellow limit breaks in to it, as well . . .

[Seriha]

My only gripes with trials are the excessive requirements on some phases and, of course, the unreliability of weather and you're SOL if you can play on a specific game day. I'm all for gradually working toward something, but 700 kills of a particular family is far from fun. Sure, it might fly if you can get access to a cleave or manaburn, but for those who maybe kill/pull a mob per minute, that's almost 12 hours of straight playing for a bad phase. Then you get wonky weapons like the 45D DRK scythe when it can't even multi-hit yet, so you're best off syncing to below 30 so you're trying to kill things with a gimp weapon.

So, really, the disconnect boils down to the activity not being fun or being arbitrarily held back by some condition beyond the player's control. In the case of the former, it's why I've advocated people helping someone with a trial while not being on it themselves would award them with some kind of points they could then exchange toward their own progress in trials. When it comes to weather blah, allowing SCH spells to count or implementing some kind of crafted pseudo-weather option (like an Aurora Mantelet that puts anything within 20" range under light weather for 1 point per kill) to help keep people from hanging.

When it comes to seals or other trade-in items, this is, sadly, a side-effect of congestion and suddenly giving a top-heavy game a bunch of the same goals to chase. Adding these drops to other areas might help a little, but until they're all discovered, people will either chase the easier mob or the one that puts out the most. So, things might not change at all.

Otherwise, it's hard to get excited about trials if you're someone with 5+ jobs leveled, which isn't hard to do these days. Sure, there might be some decent stand-in weapons here and there like a Widowmaker for WARs, but if you're a job that relies on their Empyrean WS to gain some steam (PLD and RDM with CDC, for example), it might not be a readily accessible option. So, if you're left feeling like you can't complete it, you won't try, and in turn can be looked down on or feel like you have nothing to do.

[Ravenmore]

Well lets look at it like this before the muti hit paths there was 4 weapons that that were myti hit that any one bothered with 5 if you count O.club. Joytoy was on a 12 hour pop, O.club 24 hour spawn with rite level to use the muti hit, riddle (i know im sp that wrong) which came off a 72 hour spawn and the other other 2 came from BCNM with low drop rates or you had to pay 3 to 5 mil for knife 40 mil for k.club.

The STP path has large kill numbers too but before these weapons the few weapons that had that much STP on the came from odin, AV, and I think the GK from PW had stp on it.

What I'm getting at the paths you don't have to worry bout claiming a NM with 20 other people there to do the same, can team up with other players even on the NMs, and now WS kill shot mobs you can team up on .

Weather trials are a pain if you try to do them out of season but if you take a couple of mins to see what season it is ingame can save you from wasting your time. Then you can do them on the day of week. Can't do the day of the week wait on weather the seasons in game change every 3 half days.

[Seriha]

Just because the old systems were screwed up doesn't really justify faults in later game additions.

As is, a good BLM, SCH, and RDM will probably want to work on the 6 nuking element staves, thunder and blizzard having priority. BLM and SCH would have more motivation to go for a Dark on top of this. SCHs and RDMs would be more inclined to chase the cure potency staff, too. That's thousands of kills alone just to basically keep yourself up to speed on 3 jobs. SMNs will also likely be looking into perpetuation variants. Hell, on its own, this is an inventory nightmare and heralds back to the days of people wanting rainbow/prism staves.

Melee jobs have it a little easier, but you can expect dual-wield jobs to have to work on at least 2 weapons. Still, with the game built around the concept of playing multiple jobs, these combined tasks can be overwhelming.

[Rambus]

Just because the old systems were screwed up doesn't really justify faults in later game additions.

As is, a good BLM, SCH, and RDM will probably want to work on the 6 nuking element staves, thunder and blizzard having priority. BLM and SCH would have more motivation to go for a Dark on top of this. SCHs and RDMs would be more inclined to chase the cure potency staff, too. That's thousands of kills alone just to basically keep yourself up to speed on 3 jobs. SMNs will also likely be looking into perpetuation variants. Hell, on its own, this is an inventory nightmare and heralds back to the days of people wanting rainbow/prism staves.

Melee jobs have it a little easier, but you can expect dual-wield jobs to have to work on at least 2 weapons. Still, with the game built around the concept of playing multiple jobs, these combined tasks can be overwhelming.

yep, why i am not bothering with those staffs, i need 25 because i am al mage job and duel wield mab swords...

not fun at all and the added effect of inv -27

I am fine with HQ staffs i really do not care about all this e-peen damage anymore. I have back injury and i just can't do it.

I am all for letting there be hard core gamer contant but common weapon trails is not the place for it

[Karbuncle]

Well lets look at it like this before the muti hit paths there was 4 weapons that that were myti hit that any one bothered with 5 if you count O.club. Joytoy was on a 12 hour pop, O.club 24 hour spawn with rite level to use the muti hit, riddle (i know im sp that wrong) which came off a 72 hour spawn and the other other 2 came from BCNM with low drop rates or you had to pay 3 to 5 mil for knife 40 mil for k.club.

The STP path has large kill numbers too but before these weapons the few weapons that had that much STP on the came from odin, AV, and I think the GK from PW had stp on it.

What I'm getting at the paths you don't have to worry bout claiming a NM with 20 other people there to do the same, can team up with other players even on the NMs, and now WS kill shot mobs you can team up on .

Weather trials are a pain if you try to do them out of season but if you take a couple of mins to see what season it is ingame can save you from wasting your time. Then you can do them on the day of week. Can't do the day of the week wait on weather the seasons in game change every 3 half days.

Small Correcition, Ridill dropped from Fafnir, He was only 21-24 hour!

Outside of that, Yah Magian weapons are a pain, But truthfully I prefer systems like Trial of the Magians where i can steadily work toward a goal.

IN the old days, People were always complaining there weren't enough Systems like Assault (Do Assaults, Gain points > Get Armor through points), or that everything was too luck based (Salvage), etc. I remembering hearing whats for a progressive improvement system.

Now we got one, and as expected, the old saying "The grass is always greener..." comes to play. Now people complain about the progressive-reward system.

I envy SE cause its hard to give players what they want, mostly because players have no idea What the F*** they want. They'll ask for A, get A, and then whine for B, once they get B, they'll whine they want A back.

Yup.

[Rambus]

Small Correcition, Ridill dropped from Fafnir, He was only 21-24 hour!

Outside of that, Yah Magian weapons are a pain, But truthfully I prefer systems like Trial of the Magians where i can steadily work toward a goal.

IN the old days, People were always complaining there weren't enough Systems like Assault (Do Assaults, Gain points > Get Armor through points), or that everything was too luck based (Salvage), etc. I remembering hearing whats for a progressive improvement system.

Now we got one, and as expected, the old saying "The grass is always greener..." comes to play. Now people complain about the progressive-reward system.

I envy SE cause its hard to give players what they want, mostly because players have no idea What the F*** they want. They'll ask for A, get A, and then whine for B, once they get B, they'll whine they want A back.

Yup.

I would rather camp NMs then killing 3 NM> 3 NM> 3 NM> 400 mob> 300 mob>500 mob> 600 mob >400 mob >600 mob >450 mob >700 mob> 700 mob

wayyyy too much

SE does not know what causal means, look how ffxiv started.

Some hard core contant is fine, just not on stuff that should be "common"

25 stafffs to replace 8? and all the time to do that? no

most trails are fine as is, like earth sword to replace khim drop lol.

but some are over the top like that path i listed.

[Karbuncle]

I would rather camp NMs then killing 3 NM> 3 NM> 3 NM> 400 mob> 300 mob>500 mob> 600 mob >400 mob >600 mob >450 mob >700 mob> 700 mob

wayyyy too much

While Trial of the magians does get boring after a while, and i wish it wasn't so time consuming, I'd take "Progressive Goal System" over "Dumb Luck" any day. I'm not saying Trial of the Magians is perfect. Truthfully its far from perfect. but again, I'd take a Progressive goal system over dumb luck.

I enjoy being able to pick up my weapon and go work on it when i have the time. The "Day/Weather" Trials need to be adjusted in some way cause those are suckingly-restricting. But say, the Oa2-4x Weapon paths aren't that bad. Most of them are actually quite easy, just time consuming.

But I understand not everyone feels the same. I just personally prefer any system where I'm not forced to bot if i ever want to see gear.

So, I wouldn't object to Systems like Salvage where it was something you had to figure out (minus shitty drop rates), Einherjar (Random drops + Progressive Goal), Nyzul (Random-ness Element), or Assault (battlefields with different goals/Rewards, Progressive Point System).

just sayin, if we get another system like Salvage, With Drop rates as bad as old-Salvage, We'll be missing Trial of the Magians.

[Rambus]

"Dumb luck" to get gear would not be an issue if it wasn't .0001% chance. i stopped doing savage cuz of that.

Take wow for example, There may be 2 things i found that had too rare drop rate and that stuff is not really needed.

Progressive is nice but it is still way to excessive in some cases for magains.

I did earth sword and thunder dagger and i would do those ( weather then day/weather) then the path i stated.

well maybe not some parts, back when I did it was easy to find others working on them. a big problem now is people do not do them as much

[Karbuncle]

"Dumb luck" to get gear would not be an issue if it wasn't .0001% chance. i stopped doing savage cuz of that.

Take wow for example, There may be 2 things i found that had too rare drop rate and that stuff is not really needed.

Progressive is nice but it is still way to excessive in some cases for magains.

I did earth sword and thunder dagger and i would do those ( weather then day/weather) then the path i stated.

well maybe not some parts, back when I did it was easy to find others working on them. a big problem now is people do not do them as much

Currently Abyssea gives you exactly what you described. Drop rates that aren't 0.0001%. Casual Content that you can log on, get some friends, and accomplish something.

And people still complain about that.

SO like i said... Grass is always greener. Drop rates are higher, We have progressive Goal Systems (ToTM), and people still complain.

And i never claim Magians wasn't too hard for some classes (Especially when it comes to staves, Needing 8 for Nuking, and 8 For Avatars, essentially doubling whats needed). I did say it was far from perfect.

But if you told me to pick between Old Salvage, and Trial of the Magians, I'd chose magians every time.

Edit: Also, I think SE did say they were looking into the multiple staff issue. I hope i remember reading that.

[Rambus]

Currently Abyssea gives you exactly what you described. Drop rates that aren't 0.0001%. Casual Content that you can log on, get some friends, and accomplish something.

And people still complain about that.

SO like i said... Grass is always greener. Drop rates are higher, We have progressive Goal Systems (ToTM), and people still complain.

And i never claim Magians wasn't too hard for some classes (Especially when it comes to staves, Needing 8 for Nuking, and 8 For Avatars, essentially doubling whats needed). But i think i prefer that system over old-Salvage.

Also, I think SE did say they were looking into the multiple staff issue. I hope i remember reading that.

how can you compare weapon to gear? 8 HQ staffs > trails.

I am fine with emp gear, in fact i think some is too easy some is too hard ( some body seals) basically i am complaining about the "difficulty difference gap" with different items and wonder if that was intended. ( I think SE is gonna address that anyway)

I am here making a statement that they show no interest in addressing like the path I stated or having those staffs. If a person is BLM only and they do a few staffs it is ok then, but when you have someone like me that needs 25 to replace 8 is redundant and not needed.

I do not remember SE saying anything on those staffs, also casting damage has no real relic/mythic.

[Karbuncle]

how can you compare weapon to gear? 8 HQ staffs > trails.

I am fine with emp gear, in fact i think some is too easy some is too hard ( some body seals) basically i am complaining about the "difficulty difference gap" with different items and wonder if that was intended. ( I think SE is gonna address that anyway)

I am here making a statement that they show no interest in addressing like the path I stated or having those staffs. If a person is BLM only and they do a few staffs it is ok then, but when you have someone like me that needs 25 to replace 8 is redundant and not needed.

I do not remember SE saying anything on those staffs, also casting damage has no real relic/mythic.

I for the most part entirely agree with you, yet you seem to think I'm Adamantly against you.

I'm telling you that I know Trial of the Magians is far from perfect, it has its flawsl, But If i had to chose between Magians, and salvage, I'd choose Magians. So Congratulations, We have Different Opinions. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm trying to show you my point of view as well. this is discussion.

I'm sorry I must just not be understanding your posts right, Or you're not getting mine or have selective reading :|. I think (sure?) I've mentioned that yah, I agree, Staff Trials are kinda Effed up.

though, again, I'm almost positive there was some dev Q:A About the Staff trials, where they stated they were looking into ways to eliviate the fact that there were entirely too many Staves. I could be wrong :( but i swear i read it somewhere.

I'll try to dig it up for you :(

[Rambus]

I for the most part entirely agree with you, yet you seem to think I'm Adamantly against you.


I know your not, I like making my self clear though. if i had a chose between magain staffs and savage? can i pick c. none? that is my point, that is what I did.

[Karbuncle]

I know your not, I like making my self clear though. if i had a chose between magain staffs and savage? can i pick c. none? that is my point, that is what I did.

Eh, I'd rather pick the lesser of two evils than stop entirely :(

But I do see your point.

[Ravenmore]

My bad on riddill thought it came off the HQ. After my first few camps of kings I seen it wasn't worth my time to hope we would beat the bot. What really got me on Salvage not only did you have to get 3 piece with insane drop rates but then had to turn around and spend mils of gil to upgrade.

[Meyi]

I personally think Trial of Magians is incredibly awesome and the best thing added to this game, ever.

I've completed 4 BLM staves, I'm 2 trials away from completing the cure staff, and I will finish the last three BLM staves (Dark included) and eight SMN staves.

Does it take time? Yep. But it's very rewarding when you get the last kill and you can turn in the weapon for the next upgrade. And when it's all done, it's a nice feeling to know that such hard work was well rewarded. I hate luck. I'm thankful that, every single time I kill a monster in the game, it counts towards my weapon. Every little step will eventually lead to the end goal.

The biggest problem with magian is weather/day. These requirements are ridiculous. Weather can be painful -- even in its season -- and day of the week can be brutal if you cannot be on the game (or out of an event) during that time.

So far, the worst weapon ever is the Cure Staff. Killing 150 beasts with 50+ light damage is difficult (you'd be amazed how many times Holy, Banish II, or Banish III didn't kill it off despite being at like, 2%). Collecting 10 bottled fairies solo took me 5 hours (most of it spent running to Castle Oztroja (S)'s entrance, then running to the spring and getting hippogryph aggro along the way). 15 bottled fairies is just masochism. Following this is light's day/weather 150 elements; this trial took me three light days to complete out in West Saruta (S), with other people also on the same trial.

And now, I'm grinding my teeth on the 175 elementals on light's day/weather. But you know what? When I finish this trial, and turn in 15 Light Geodes and get my +2 staff back, it's going to feel bloody fantastic. Well worth the stats.

Spending time on a fantastiv weapon is great. Being hindered because of schedules is not great.

[Rambus]

I personally think Trial of Magians is incredibly awesome and the best thing added to this game, ever.

I've completed 4 BLM staves, I'm 2 trials away from completing the cure staff, and I will finish the last three BLM staves (Dark included) and eight SMN staves.

Does it take time? Yep. But it's very rewarding when you get the last kill and you can turn in the weapon for the next upgrade. And when it's all done, it's a nice feeling to know that such hard work was well rewarded. I hate luck. I'm thankful that, every single time I kill a monster in the game, it counts towards my weapon. Every little step will eventually lead to the end goal.

The biggest problem with magian is weather/day. These requirements are ridiculous. Weather can be painful -- even in its season -- and day of the week can be brutal if you cannot be on the game (or out of an event) during that time.

So far, the worst weapon ever is the Cure Staff. Killing 150 beasts with 50+ light damage is difficult (you'd be amazed how many times Holy, Banish II, or Banish III didn't kill it off despite being at like, 2%). Collecting 10 bottled fairies solo took me 5 hours (most of it spent running to Castle Oztroja (S)'s entrance, then running to the spring and getting hippogryph aggro along the way). 15 bottled fairies is just masochism. Following this is light's day/weather 150 elements; this trial took me three light days to complete out in West Saruta (S), with other people also on the same trial.

And now, I'm grinding my teeth on the 175 elementals on light's day/weather. But you know what? When I finish this trial, and turn in 15 Light Geodes and get my +2 staff back, it's going to feel bloody fantastic. Well worth the stats.

Spending time on a fantastiv weapon is great. Being hindered because of schedules is not great.

should i be cock blocked from getting semi good gear on 19 job because i have 19 jobs?

I personally do not care for the staff trails I do not have the time to invest in them, and in abyssea if you are using potency atma you do not have a big difference vs HQ staffs because people reported potency atma is added with the magins and multiplied outside with HQ ele staffs. I can understand not having best of the best on all jobs ( like all emp weapons) but common staffs? Give me a brake -.-. the space issue is big too I DO NOT have the space to replace 8 staffs with 27 weapons atm.

they are fine if you only have 1 or 2 90s to work on, not 19.

they toned down the weather, i do not see weather much of an issue past some specific trails ( marbol in wind, fire in general, so on)

I agree it is a good system but some things is too much, esp after the relic change there should be no reason for paths like this:

400 Plantoids > Trial 653: 300 Ladybugs > Kurodachi Trial 655: 500 Beast > Trial 656: 600 Aquan > Trial 657: 400 Gnats> Trial 1559: 600 Demons > Trial 1560: 450 Qiqirn> Trial 2120: 700 Aquans> and unlisted one is 700 birds.

[Dooom]

they are fine if you only have 1 or 2 90s to work on, not 19.

As someone with 18 jobs 75+: quit crying. If you want good weapons for all jobs, you put the work in. Don't have the time? Focus on a few.


400 Plantoids > Trial 653: 300 Ladybugs > Kurodachi Trial 655: 500 Beast > Trial 656: 600 Aquan > Trial 657: 400 Gnats> Trial 1559: 600 Demons > Trial 1560: 450 Qiqirn> Trial 2120: 700 Aquans> and unlisted one is 700 birds.

Looking on wiki, I do not see 700 birds as part of that trial.

[Rambus]

Looking on wiki, I do not see 700 birds as part of that trial.

look what i wrote.

Inventory issues. It does not make sense to say oh we see there are Inventory issues while making 27 weapons to replace 8. It does not make sence to lower relic trails and still have paths like i listed, if you want to change something do it equally.

if they do not want to replace HQ staffs? fine ill still be using them at 99

[Meyi]

should i be cock blocked from getting semi good gear on 19 job because i have 19 jobs?

No. And technically you're not cock blocked. There is no limit as to how many magians you can complete.


I personally do not care for the staff trails I do not have the time to invest in them, and in abyssea if you are using potency atma you do not have a big difference vs HQ staffs because people reported potency atma is added with the magins and multiplied outside with HQ ele staffs. I can understand not having best of the best on all jobs ( like all emp weapons) but common staffs? Give me a brake -.-. the space issue is big too I DO NOT have the space to replace 8 staffs with 27 weapons atm.

Okay? So then don't do them. Or better yet, stop looking at them all as an overwhelming project. Instead, look at them as a trial by trial basis, and you'll feel better.

I agree wholeheartedly on the too much space issue. I do hope that Square Enix will either make Prism final staves (which require all of the staves in their final product to fuse together) for every element mushed together, or allow us to fuse every staff with the same name. (Ex. Varuna's Staff +2 with Magic Acc+1, Magic Att.+5, Fast Cast-12% + Magic Acc. +5, Magic Att.+1, Fast Cast-12% + Avatar Perpept. -6, Blood Pact Delay -10 = Varuna's Staff +2 with Magic Acc. +5, Magic Att. +5, Avatar Perpept-6, Blood Pact Delay -10, Fast Cast +12%.)


they are fine if you only have 1 or 2 90s to work on, not 19.

Maybe. But you have choice over how many jobs you level and how well you make them.

On my Elvaan I had 7 jobs at max level. I know 7 isn't nearly as much as 19, but I understand the frustration. I was planning on making magians for all of the jobs, but I later retired the character when I was nearly finished with THF daggers.

As for my Taru, I've only leveled BLM and WHM so far and want to level SMN. Even imagining 16 magians to do is a nightmare. So instead I just focus on one staff at a time.

I think the biggest nightmare for magian weapons is imagining the 95 and 99 cap increase; those will be new magians to add to our weapons. So even if you finish a weapon now, it's not 100% complete; there will be two trials to add on at a later date.


they toned down the weather, i do not see weather much of an issue past some specific trails ( marbol in wind, fire in general, so on)

I hate it. I hate standing around for an hour waiting for weather to pop and being forced to stay glued to the screen without anything enjoyable to involve myself in.

I also dispise waiting for a Vana'diel day, but at least for me, I have the ability to wait for most days. I feel sorry for other people who have busy lives (two jobs, full time student, children, etc etc).


I agree it is a good system but some things is too much, esp after the relic change there should be no reason for paths like this:

400 Plantoids > Trial 653: 300 Ladybugs > Kurodachi Trial 655: 500 Beast > Trial 656: 600 Aquan > Trial 657: 400 Gnats> Trial 1559: 600 Demons > Trial 1560: 450 Qiqirn> Trial 2120: 700 Aquans> and unlisted one is 700 birds.

Really? I personally prefer those kinds of trials. You can go out at any time of the day, for as long as you want, and just grind through them. You don't have any death requirements (such as kill with 250+ ice damage, a WS, a pet, etc) and you can team up with other people on the trial.

Heck, you could even just go do 20 a day. At least every monster you kill on that trial, you are guaranteed 1 step closer to a completed, awesome weapon.

[Rambus]

No. And technically you're not cock blocked. There is no limit as to how many magians you can complete.

was speaking of time, i can only sit down and play for only so long. name o0f thread:
General Musings on Community and Causality

[SNK]

I am fine with HQ staffs i really do not care about all this e-peen damage anymore. I have back injury and i just can't do it.

Pardon my confusion but, What does a back injury have to do with you not being able to play one aspect of the game if you're doing other stuff online?

[Rambus]

Pardon my confusion but, What does a back injury have to do with you not being able to play one aspect of the game if you're doing other stuff online?

laying down, hard to do something in a game for 1 minute and leave. my game time atm is mostly ls event and on days i feel better i do magain trails.

i have a pdt sword, thunder dagger, trying to work on sword emp and this gkt, thats it

[Meyi]

was speaking of time, i can only sit down and play for only so long. name o0f thread:
General Musings on Community and Causality

That's why those trials are best for you.

Kill one monster. Lay down. Come back when you feel better, kill a couple more, lay down some more.

Really, Magian Weapon builds and crafting are the only things you can do in this game for incredibly short periods of time. Everything else (partying, Abyssea, HNMLS events, Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage, Skilling Up, etc) requires much more time.

[Ravenmore]

Little nitpic marbol in wind is easy. Out side of whitegate in spring and summor wind is up almost every game day and there is 4 pops close to each other. Kill 2 then run over to the other 2 kill them and the other 2 should be back up. Now puks on windsday are a PITA.

[Lexin]

TotM I don't like but whatever I get over it.

Now the only way to augment my older gear is through synergy only is just plain BS! I have not even touched synergy and never plan to.

[Rambus]

I get your point meyi Ill try harder, but I will like to backstop a bit

When relics had their 1000 or 2000 kills per trails these oat and ws ones had the same amounts right? (I do not know I did not have a big interest back then) I know they lowered some elemental ones too. What I do not get now is why these ws ones and OaT trails have more kill shots then relics/mythics now. That is my only concern that i find strange. If SE don't want to change it that’s fine it is just I do not get that inconsistency.

[Meyi]

I get your point meyi Ill try harder, but I will like to backstop a bit
-smiles- Just do what you can, when you can, and when you want to. It's a game, it's meant to be fun!

Hell, I went years without joining HNMLSes and getting all the "best" gear. I found the drama and demands too depressing to put up with. Naturally, this means I don't care if people have "the best" or not, magians included. I do them because they're exactly my kind of play style.


When relics had their 1000 or 2000 kills per trails these oat and ws ones had the same amounts right? (I do not know I did not have a big interest back then) I know they lowered some elemental ones too. What I do not get now is why these ws ones and OaT trails have more kill shots then relics/mythics now. That is my only concern that i find strange. If SE don't want to change it that’s fine it is just I do not get that inconsistency.

1k+ is just ridiculous. Anything over 500 is ridiculous. I personally think all trials should have a maximum cap of 200. What was even more repulsing was that relics and mythics took forever to make, just for the base. Add on top of that they had the most grueling trials (in numbers and in requirements), and to add salt to the wound, were not as effective as Empyrean Magian Weapons. I'm thankful they reduced relic and mythic numbers to a slightly more reasonable number.

[Rambus]

yeah like to point back to this:

400 Plantoids > Trial 653: 300 Ladybugs > Kurodachi Trial 655: 500 Beast > Trial 656: 600 Aquan > Trial 657: 400 Gnats> Trial 1559: 600 Demons > Trial 1560: 450 Qiqirn> Trial 2120: 700 Aquans> and unlisted one is 700 birds.

now i read the chart wrong at first i thought mine would be the drop ones. wiki does not list the 90 ( remember when you said you did not see the 700 birds?) that is because it only goes up to the 85 version, the 85>90 is 700 birds.

Now i did the relic trails refind, 400 mobs average. but the thing is those mobs people killed a lot, like crabs, so i was killing with people. When you have crap like 600 demons, 450 qiqrin seems unattainable. ill try it do what i can but dang i did not notice that when i picked up the weapon. to add more problems doing aot paths causes you to use a weak weapon. the plantod phase turned my 67 D weapon (w/e it was) now to D40, at the demon stage ill be using a weak AoT twice weapon.

be easier for me cuz of my bow of course and i know most oat are looked down on and meant more as a toy weapon but gee they should lower requirement for those. Same for ws ones, some are use 800 ws on xxx mob.

[Seriha]

Okay? So then don't do them. Or better yet, stop looking at them all as an overwhelming project. Instead, look at them as a trial by trial basis, and you'll feel better.

Unfortunately, most weapons simply AREN'T worth looking at until a certain phase in the process, and as noted above, sometimes they get prematurely nerfed for no logical reason before reaching that phase of usefulness. I believe I mentioned scythe earlier, but let me expand on this. When you complete the initial 3 NMs for the physical paths, you're left with a D79 weapon. Not unreasonable for a 75, though there's certainly better. If going for multi-hitters, you're then tasked to kill 400 Arcana. When that's done, you're graced D45 weapon with 518 delay. That's it. From there, it's 400 Hippogryphs, 500 Amorphs, 600 Plantoids, and 400 Peistes before FINALLY this piddly POS weapon gets the ability to attack twice with 10 more delay tacked on. From there, it's 600 dragons (+1 DMG), 450 buffalo (2-3x after, +2 DMG), 700 arcana (D56, 2-3x), and 700 lizards (D56, 2-4x).

To be honest, the points where this weapon can attack 2-3x is rather short. I'd argue the ability to attack 2x should've been possible after the Hippogryph trials (though it obviously would've been helpful beforehand, as much as a PITA these mobs are). Your best bet for tackling the next two phases is level sync to someone who's 10 and just have them AFK follow you as you kill worms and mandragora in the past zones, as otherwise you'll be fighting level 56+ mobs with the equivalent of a level 29ish weapon (Frostreaper is L27 with D42 while Merc. Captain Scythe is L30 with D51.). To be honest, this isn't much different than just multiplying the needed kills by 1.5x if you're solo with a more appropriate weapon. Other two-handed weapons go through similar pains, but their one-handed brethren aren't nearly as crippled, and in some cases can completely work around the weapon's damage by off-handing it or having things like a RDM with nukes or BLU and their spells. Either way, the 2-3x could've come after the Peiste phase (At least you'd be able to kill these 1.4x quicker), then the 2-4x once you're on Maleficence.

Excluding the intro NMs, it's 4650 kills to complete this weapon over 12 trials (including NMs), averaging 388 kills per (517 without NMs). Functioning under the assumption of a minute per pull/kill solo, you're looking at 77.5 hours just on the grinding, maybe another 12 hours tacked on from the NM phases, give or take their pop stubbornness. Is nearly 90 man hours worth a 2-4x scythe? Indeed, we know helpers will cut down on this time, but help should never be expected or assumed guaranteed. For someone who plays roughly 2 hours a day, this will mean 45 days to make their weapon if it's all they do from start to finish. Does that sound like a fun game to you? Now, imagine if you have multiple jobs...

In part, this is where the mercy of alternative weapons could come into play, but we all know those will eventually be outdated while magian items, already the superior in a lot of cases, will only continue to grow with no guarantee that another bridge weapon will be added. The level 85 cap actually sucked pretty bad in this respect, but 90 at least brought some new synths of ~87 stuff and the job-specific weapons of varying quality. On some level, it makes me think SE is aware of the grind issue, but instead of fixing it, they just gave us those instead while forgetting the playerbase is often hyper-critical about not partying with "the best" at any given time.

[Meyi]

Excluding the intro NMs, it's 4650 kills to complete this weapon over 12 trials (including NMs), averaging 388 kills per (517 without NMs). Functioning under the assumption of a minute per pull/kill solo, you're looking at 77.5 hours just on the grinding, maybe another 12 hours tacked on from the NM phases, give or take their pop stubbornness. Is nearly 90 man hours worth a 2-4x scythe? Indeed, we know helpers will cut down on this time, but help should never be expected or assumed guaranteed. For someone who plays roughly 2 hours a day, this will mean 45 days to make their weapon if it's all they do from start to finish. Does that sound like a fun game to you? Now, imagine if you have multiple jobs...

Well, I really don't think it'd take that long to complete. But let's assume it takes 77.5 hours to complete. And let's break it down into 2 hours a day (approximately 39 days). That's slightly over a month. 39 days, decent play, for a superior weapon that's guaranteed as long as you do the work sounds pretty reasonable to me.

How many of us went months or years before we finally got armor we were after? Salvage? Dynamis? And no matter how much time you spent in Salvage or Dynamis (or a HNMLS), you were never guaranteed a final product in the end.

With Magians, you are.

I don't think the exact trials are enjoyable, and like I said before, I think there should be a maximum of 200 monsters required for any one trial. The enjoyment, for me, is the hard work and the guaranteed reward for said hard work.

As far as I'm aware, I think most jobs only need about 1~2 Magian Weapons? So even if you have multiple jobs, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

The jobs I can think of that need large amounts of magian weapons are BLM, RDM, SCH, and SMN.


In part, this is where the mercy of alternative weapons could come into play, but we all know those will eventually be outdated while magian items, already the superior in a lot of cases, will only continue to grow with no guarantee that another bridge weapon will be added. The level 85 cap actually sucked pretty bad in this respect, but 90 at least brought some new synths of ~87 stuff and the job-specific weapons of varying quality. On some level, it makes me think SE is aware of the grind issue, but instead of fixing it, they just gave us those instead while forgetting the playerbase is often hyper-critical about not partying with "the best" at any given time.

Why shouldn't the magians be superior? If people put in the time and energy into making something, I think it deserves more power than an item that doesn't.

[Seriha]

Just because the old game had flaws doesn't mean we should let current ones have their own. I'll leave the choice of a lesser of two evils for politics. In the end, I'm not saying Magian weapons shouldn't be superior to the random drop or crafted equivalent, but just that the gap of acquisition effort between them is too steep, which we're in part in agreement.

[Greatguardian]

OAX weapons are generally complete crap that aren't really worth making anyways (exceptions being OA2 Lance and OA4 Dagger for support DNC). But really, the only reason those trials are so high is because you can do them whenever. There are no day or weather restrictions to them.

The only reason Relic/Mythic requirements were lowered was because the base weapon already required a ton of work. They cut Relic owners some slack because they already toiled for their weapon, that's all.

Aside from that, really, someone who wants to gear 19 jobs is going to have to do 19 times the work someone who wants to gear 1 job does. That is common sense. If anything, Magian trials cut multi-job players some slack because the staves and some of the Empyrean Weapons can be used by multiple job classes (h2h, sword, dagger, gs, gun, staff, axe, etc). Once your PUP has the best weapon available, your MNK will too.

Honestly, I don't think any magian trial is hard if you do them efficiently. Fell Cleaves and AoE burns in Abyssea are amazing for them. Yeah, if you do them in a slower manner then it will take a while. But the weapons themselves are so powerful that it's easily worth the effort.

[blowfin]

Is nearly 90 man hours worth a 2-4x scythe?

No, but I`m no DRK and even I know that scythe is terrible. The length of the trial isnt the problem, its the choice to start on the OA2-4 path in the first place thats the problem. Very bad example to use really.

Plus, if you don't have the time do to the trials, maybe they're not for you? I do have to wonder though, if people dont have time to chip away at Magian trials, how do they have time to do anything at all?

[Seriha]

It's not so much about time as it is giving players variety. Like I said, if it does take that 90 hours, for someone who can manage 2-3 hours a day, that'd be 30-45 days if that's all they did. Realistically, someone might level another job during this span, farm something else, work on some quests or missions, or just shoot the breeze with their LS. So, the same scythe could easily take 3 months or more with an off-and-on approach. Such is also why you can't quite look at things as baby steps in the current incarnations since the reward arguably doesn't match the effort on a good scale.

Now that I think about it, though, this is a classic example of how multi-tasking in XI either isn't possible or scarcely as rewarding as focused play. Abyssea's broken this mold somewhat since you can make money from gold chests while you're EXPing, or get some modest EXP farming NMs for loot, but with how most of the old game worked, you were either EXPing, questing, hoping for a drop, or making money. Overlap was very scarce. So, really, I'd like to reiterate the desire, perhaps outright need, of people helping others with trials yielding a reward from the game itself and not relying on mercing or favors that may never be returned. Someone could possibly work around a crappy phases by helping others with their easier ones. Those who refuse to invite "leeches" to their AoE parties will, in turn, miss out from possible rewards for actually being charitable and helping strangers in a community environment. So, later on, they can skip their own blah trials if they so choose. Everyone wins.

[Rambus]

No, but I`m no DRK and even I know that scythe is terrible. The length of the trial isnt the problem, its the choice to start on the OA2-4 path in the first place thats the problem. Very bad example to use really.

Plus, if you don't have the time do to the trials, maybe they're not for you? I do have to wonder though, if people dont have time to chip away at Magian trials, how do they have time to do anything at all?

This is bad logic, lets make ash staff trails that requires you kill 1000 mobs per trail then end up with a D40 staff in the end.

this thead is to tell SE issues on the game.

1. why make a path that ends up with a "suck" weapon?
2. why is said path of bad weapon one of the longest, or is the longest paths of said bad weapon?

if you are going to make "crap" weapons, it is a waiste of programing to make them. it is likey SE missed these issues because it just does not make sence to have it ( waste of space/ time/ what not)

[blowfin]

It's not so much about time as it is giving players variety. Like I said, if it does take that 90 hours, for someone who can manage 2-3 hours a day, that'd be 30-45 days if that's all they did.

That was my point, choose a realistic option if you have limited playtime. There are plenty of choices out there, you just happened to pick the most labor intensive trial to aid your argument.


This is bad logic, lets make ash staff trails that requires you kill 1000 mobs per trail then end up with a D40 staff in the end.

this thead is to tell SE issues on the game.

1. why make a path that ends up with a "suck" weapon?
2. why is said path of bad weapon one of the longest, or is the longest paths of said bad weapon?

if you are going to make "crap" weapons, it is a waiste of programing to make them. it is likey SE missed these issues because it just does not make sence to have it ( waste of space/ time/ what not)

Huh, all weapons have the same trial branches. What would you have them do, take out all the weapons you personally see as not useful? That`s ridiculous. It`s up to the player to at least do a bit of research before they embark on trials to not choose something stupid.

HAI GUYZ, LIKE MY NEW MAGIC EVASION WEAPON?:cool:

[Rambus]

Huh, all weapons have the same trial branches. What would you have them do, take out all the weapons you personally see as not useful? That`s ridiculous. It`s up to the player to at least do a bit of research before they embark on trials to not choose something stupid.

HAI GUYZ, LIKE MY NEW MAGIC EVASION WEAPON?:cool:

point missed, I was not saying you should not do research

[blowfin]

point missed, I was not saying you should not do research

Point was not missed at all. They obviously came up with the base magian system and applied it to all types of weapons, removing `weak`weapons would have actually been much harder for them to code i`d say. Sounds like a waste of time for them really. To provide what kind of benefit to the player? Nothing that I can see. I`d rather their time is spent on developing new content and fixing things, rather than second guessing the community and removing `bad`weapons and trials.

[Rambus]

I do not know how to reword it but that is not my point

[Tamarsamar]

I would like to remind all of you who are complaining about various aspects of Magian Trials of the point of this thread: would you really rather have random, Synergy-born augments, rather than a certain thing that you can choose to progressively work towards? :confused:

[blowfin]

Synergy-born augments, rather than a certain thing that you can choose to progressively work towards

We'll have both pretty soon...

I think a better question is:
What would you rather? NM camps where you might not see the item you're chasing for years, or TotM.