Placed into June Digest reply, but relates to items, crafting, economy + econ health

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

This is a concern for the longevity of FFXI, the current state of our community and the overall health of each server.

At this point i really really really believe that FFXI is unworthy of it's ignorant peer to peer transaction interfaces.
Unregulated interface design has lead to a manipulated and sometimes corrupt environment.
All items in game categorized as equipment should be account-mail only (bound to account).
This specifically concerns only the mail system, equipment will still have a place in the economy -> Read Below.
Increase mail outslot/inslot to 32+.
Trade boxes have the option for a gil trade completely removed.
Crafting skill level cap per character reworked to allow all crafts to achieve maximum skill level.

"EX" itemization tag is completely removed from game with the exception of reforged armors, augmented equipment or equipment with Rank point upgrades.
All items are given a NPC mediatory vendor listing in a new player supplied warehousing/pawnshop style environment including items that have "EX" tag removed.
Auction house is removed and replaced with this new interface.
SE dev team + director + producer select a base exchangeable gil rate for said items in the new warehousing system.
Dev team + director + producer can elect to set a minimum and maximum value for every listing.
Bazaar is linked to new warehousing system, prices of items placed into bazaar are set automatically by the current listing price through the new item commerce system.
Item listings are subject to the supply and demand through easily constructed price formulas by which small percentages of value are subtracted or added based on stock levels and availability of items within each listing.
Prices never exceed the maximum price for items that existing NPC vendors sell at: this includes all items that are currently sold by every NPC vendor.
When selling to NPC vendors players are paid a suggested amount of 75%-90% of the item's current listing price.
Listing prices adjust automatically based upon inventory levels.
Sold items are automatically accounted for and added to the warehousing inventory.
Inventory levels begin at and can become zero.

All equipment purchased with "Sparks" will receive a random stat augment applicable to the jobs that access user prerequisite.
Example: Cloth armor sold from Sparks vendor with job listings for BLM/WHM/RDM/SCH/GEO/SMN could receive an augment of +INT or +MND based upon the level range bracket it's sold through.
New NPCs created that will remove any augment for the cost of X 100 the item's minimum equipment level.
One placed in each city where sparks vendors are currently located.

Feel free to use this perspective and innovation in all of Square Enix's current and future titles. Thank you very much for your attention!

[Nyarlko]

So... "Remove the economy" is your suggestion?

What this seems to boil down to is converting the open player-driven economy into something much more akin to a single-player RPG style where pricing is entirely based upon NPCs and players have only exceedingly minor effect. Uncapping all crafts per character and removing the ability to hit those dreamed-of HQ lotto paydays would probably cause enough characters to get canceled that the game would finally go into the red, which would hasten the death of the game and shutdown of the servers.

I'm not even going to touch the itemization changes suggested because I don't feel like replying with an equally large wall of text to argue against them.



...I can't even conceive of the reasoning behind typing all of the OP out, tbh.

Better suggestion: Can we get a "Thumbs Down" function on these forums?

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

The 3rd-party program bots are slaughtering honest commerce. And you claim to be from Asura? SE seems unable to squash the ToS violations that plague the game. Changing the interface and placing mediator npc systems in place is the only other solution.

[Nyarlko]

Yes, I play on Asura. No, that has absolutely no connection whatsoever to a horrible idea being horrible.

If you want a console RPG economy, go play a console RPG.

Don't expect anyone sane to agree with your bizarre ideas.

If you want to complain about bots/RMT, then complain about the lack of enforcement of existing policy/rules or something actually connected to the problem.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

The solution for the third party bots/ToS violations in a game of this age, with this history, with the current amount of subscriptions can only be accomplished with interface and design reforms. Square Enix will not and rightfully so can't expend billions of Yen to police servers with what would be required to have a sufficient enduring result.

[Isola]

It doesn't cost anything to ban someone. I'll verify and ban for FREE.

What it costs is subscriptions. and that's money they clearly can't afford to lose.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Hence reform of interface and design so therefore SE would address more than one issue with the suggested changes.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

If by what you mean by "best way" is "corrupt way".


refers to :
Quote Originally Posted by Zehira View Post
Many people like me believe botting is the best way to earn a lot of gil
*facepalm*

[Zehira]

If by what you mean by "best way" is "corrupt way".

"Life isn't fair. Get used to it." -Bill Gates

I am not the richest player in Asura, I have been selling items at fair prices and giving new players 500k-1m gil to start with. So you are saying what I am doing is the corrupt way? Give me a break.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Automated scripts ( bots ) are in violation of Terms of Service, therefore yes the use of automated character scripts or 3rd party programs that control input into the game without your direct control is corrupt.

[Stompa]

This is not a policing issue, or an economic issue. This is a moral issue.

If nobody buys gil, the gilsellers will disappear within a month. They will be left with zero dollars, and a bunch of millionaire mules with Scrambled Names.

I have never bought gil in fifteen years of playing FFXI daily. My total contribution to gilsellers is $0. This is how you defeat gilsellers.

Back in 2004, especially among the BST75 community of which I was a proud member, Gilbuyers were considered cheats and cowards, and Gilsellers were considered the lowest form of life.

Gilsellers were not only loathed because they corrupted the new players and unbalanced the stratified achievement system, but also because they were bad at playing games. Gilsellers famously died all the time and failed hard against easy NMs. They sucked at gaming. It was an endless source of amusement to me and my BST75 pals.

I might have MPKed gilsellers a lot on my BST, or I might not have done so. You have to talk to my lawyer about that.

I think it is healthy and morally puissant to look down on gilsellers, to despise them, and to never give them your dollars.

You are not an elite legendary player if you buy gil, or if you buy progress / gear from mercs. You are an elite legendary player if you earn the gil and earn the progress / gear yourself, or with your adventuring friends.

This is a philosophical stance, and it used to be the norm. It was normal to feel resentment towards people who cheat, or those who facilitate cheating.

Ultimately, morals have changed, and that is a Player Side problem.

[Sirmarki]

This is not a policing issue, or an economic issue. This is a moral issue.

Morals are non-existent in this day and age.

[Sirmarki]

Many people like me believe botting is the best way to earn a lot of gil

*facepalm*

[Dzspdref]

This is not a policing issue, or an economic issue. This is a moral issue.

I might have MPKed gilsellers a lot on my BST, or I might not have done so. You have to talk to my lawyer about that.

.

I MPK'ed hundreds of bots in the lv75 cap days before Goblins patrolled the fishing areas. Let's talk Batallia Downs auto-fishers and RMTs doing the "rusty sword" repair to sell to NPC gil fiasco.
I would /sh in the area that an NM was (or will be) otw and they'd better move if they are real players. I even did /tells to many of them. Not a single bot moved. Come along the fun NM tree and it "went to town" and killed every single one of them.
One (or maybe more) of them called a GM on me, and he reviewed my chat log and shouts and tells. I was then "off the fisherman's hook" so to say.
Taught many others what to do; did this every day for weeks, and so did others, multiple times a day.
Then one day, all those fishing bots were all gone. Hmmm..... wish I could do the same for sphere-bots.

[Stompa]

On a more current note, I think the GAIN XP Records Of Eminence, should only load once. So you get the Copper Voucher, the sparks and accolades, for the first page, and then it doesn't reload again.

This is because currently Gain XP affects all the other aspects of FFXI.

For example, it is the evening time, I'm enjoying my Hot Cocoa, and playing FFXI. I quite fancy going Fishing, or doing some Chocobo Digging, or doing Emote Games with my Automaton for a few hours.

But then Gain XP starts, and suddenly I am reminded that if I go fishing or do any other normal activity, I will be losing 10,000 Gil Per Second. Because that is the money I will make if I do Gain XP and kill a bunch of helpless weak mobs.

This is actually harmful to the equilibrium of my gaming experience. In the past, I could just go fishing, and feel relaxed and happy, and not worry about losing 10,000 Gil Per Second.
:)

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

I completely agree with Stompa's above comment. But i will take it one step further: ALL automatically re-initializing RoE's that que based on earth calendar/clock (MUST) NEED to have the reward for sparks removed. Upon 2nd or beyond objective completions can be reformed so the objective is multiplied by 5x or 10x and awards a single copper voucher instead of the automatically obtained sparks.


Also note, at the very start of this topic the design innovation i propose that would automatically add a generated augment to items obtained from sparks vendors, thus making those items disabled from sell to npc until augment is removed.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

I am linking this topic to another because it is relevant since the only option other than SE paying billions of yen to police servers 24/7 with massive amounts of STF employees is to reform, evolve and over-haul the interface and how player to player commerce is accommodated with the internal system of capabilities and menus.

[Fatty]

I am on your side. But what you're suggesting is only going to hurt players. Because RMT and botters always move on to the Next Best Thing. As you remove more and more ways for legitimate players to acquire gil easily, the gil discrepancy between real players and botters will only increase.

You will never fight RMT/botters by adjusting such mechanics.

The problem has to be fixed at the root. It is undeniable that there are people that want to obtain gil for real money, because a lot of very important things in the game revolve around having a lot of gil. (You can reduce that by removing or reducing the gil dependency for obtaining the most sought-after items, like the ultimate weapons. This is one thing that can be done. But note that if gil becomes meaningless, player economy will be meaningless as well.)

If we don't want to completely remove the player-driven economy aspect of the game, then the next most obvious choice is to make gil/real-money trade an actual part of the game itself. This is the route that has been taken by many MMOs, such as:

* Eve Online
* World of Warcraft
* Elder Scrolls Online
* Guild Wars 2
* Star Trek Online
* EverQuest II
* RIFT

The list goes on. Every major MMO out there went with this route.

Because: As long as there's any type of in-game currency, there will be RMT involved. That's the nature of the world currently, and you cannot fight against that.

But you can take away their weapon, by incorporating the trade into the game. This benefits the parent company rather than the "gold sellers," (and funds the game itself), and hence, their revenue stream goes away. And so does their motivation to bot. Bots (from the mechanized mass gold farmers) disappear. Which is the major source of the headache currently.

Players can opt to bot however, but there will be much less motivation to do so: because unlike bots, players have a lot to lose: Permanent bans would kill their entire investment into the game itself, and their characters (which is the reason they'd want to bot in the first place). Because of this reason, player botting would never reach the heights of RMT botting. But, this has to be dealt with actively, with STF. Aka banhammers.

Since the company would have increased revenue by incorporating currency trading, STF operations could be funded by this. So would the game itself, making new content possible.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Large sums of gil or the means by which honest players can quickly acquire it really isn't the issue here. Prices are much much much higher overall due to the prohibited business of RMT inflating the market. When market prices lower, that additionally lowers pricing for items which are sold to you. The serious issue here is to render scams, schemes and RMT activity on FFXI servers competitively ineffective through design.

Read the proposal through and apply logical comprehension.

As of now items sold to npc shop are removed out of the circulation of the market. With the proposal as conceptualized the players have the option to sell into a FFXI warehousing structure and those items remain in circulation.

As of now scoundrels can, have, and do manipulate the AH pricing history illegitimately using false forced sales to lower a price of a item they wish to purchase in bulk or raise a price of a item they believe that they can retail at a higher price.
With the proposal these actions and behaviors will have very minimal impact and a vast number of transactions will need to occur for drastic changes of value to happen.

As of now ambitious and scheming accounts are corrupting the "EX" item tag system against the actual purpose of it's design intent.
With the proposal everyone that resides on FFXI is placed into a vastly more unbiased economy with the benefit of unrestrained transactions within the proposed warehousing system with the benefit of previously destroyed items remaining in circulation and items previously determined to be unworthy of AH sale now becoming more readily available using the proposed system.

With this proposal commerce will flourish and thrive.

As of now corrupt individuals violate ToS through interactions with prohibited RMT to pay vastly higher prices than they could without these dishonorable means. The overall effect is that an honorable player is faced with these same vastly higher prices as a shopper. In addition to this detrimental consequence, the honorable player can additionally find that they are denied party participation as a result of a less developed itemization progress or party positions being determined by the mercenary culture.
With this proposal intrinsic gil is retained on your account. Safeguarded gil is then exchanged through the warehousing/pawn shop interface between players which is mediated as described. Trade box is reformed to continue to allow the trade of tangible items with the interface for gil removed. Delivery box is reformed to continue to allow for all delivery with two changes. One in that the interface for gil is restricted to same account (or bound to account). The second would restrict equip-able items to delivery to same account. All eligible equip-able items would have sales listings in the new warehousing style marketplace and bazaar access status. Eligible equip-able items would be any equipment that has not received an augment, rank point upgrade or the JSE sets (Relic/AF/Empyrean).

Upon the full implementation of the proposal the outcome will be : the disintegration of the ability for RMT to comfortably distribute assets, the disintegration of gil used as a medium for the mercenary culture, the disintegration of the limits and repercussions imposed by the current auction house, and the disintegration of schemes scams and other detrimental behavior corresponding with the corrupt procurement of defiled gil funds.

[Fatty]

With your reply, I can only assume you have not read my post at all. I have nothing left to discuss here.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

The explanation is that you can curtail RMT with correct and intelligent interface design. At the very least this proposal will inhibit the effects of unrestrained RMT from effecting the population that are not part of the prohibited behavior.

[Mnemnopyn]

You also have to look at ease of implementation. One proposal would have pretty minimal impact, and one is a dramatic overhaul. Since the game only really has a skeleton crew right now, it seems like our odds would be better with the solution that can actually be implemented, right?

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Truth be told, it's an interface concern. Character graphics, Zone graphics, storyline and enemy creation would not need to be applied in this matter. Some menus might need to be adjusted, some npc dialogue would be adjusted and items not currently listed on present auction house would have to be applied to the new warehousing style market. Their biggest challenge would be just how to manage the influx of items sold to the warehousing style market. Something along the lines of a 60 second downtime between sales of an item type may be the solution to handle the data transfers.

[Mnemnopyn]

The problem with old code like this game has is that nothing is just anything. You'd have to think about the database behind the interface, too (that would be true even for a shiny new game). Basically, you refer back to your gigantic economic overhaul all over the forums as if it was a silver bullet with no difficulty, but nothing is that easy to change, and completely redoing the entire economy isn't even a small ask. It's on the order of "make everything stack to 99" or "gimme 6 completely new jobs." Put another way, it's not a "proposal," but more of a weird Utopian dream scenario for a game that doesn't exist. Maybe put your obviously impressive imagination to work on something that's actually achievable given the status quo, instead of going for needlessly disruptive innovation labeled as "an interface concern."

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

~ @ Mnemnopyn Your perception is incorrect. I have been part of FFXI since Zilart which pre-dates CoP ToAU WotG Abyssea SoA and all of the content released after SoA. Every time an expansion was implemented the AH has been adjusted, the vast majority of version updates have adjusted the AH. Dynamis {D} saw a moderately robust adjustment for the AH adding listings for it's implementation. NPC regional vendors already adjust pricing based upon character fame. NPC guild vendors already adjust pricing based upon inventory amounts. There is nothing gigantic about these reforms. Large; yes quite possibly. Difficult; absolutely not. Time consuming for SE staff, yes quite possibly. Needlessly distruptive, absolutely not, as it very much would be disruptive to dishonorable and prohibited activity and that in fair truthfulness is what FFXI needs to retain and grow subscription numbers. Overall, the implementation of these reforms would be trivial compared to an expansion pack addition or a content release on the scale of Dynamis {D}.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Bump. Please click to view the initial proposal on the first page of this topic.

[Gwydion]

My opinion may be unpopular: I would support an FFXI RL Money <-> Merchant if SE promises the money will be re-invested into the game with more content (the bonus would be that nefarious RMT would disappear too).

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

That would be a can of worms and the black market RMT would advertise even more to undercut a Square-Enix price.

[BST]

The only thing wrong with the game and that needs changing, is the people who buy Gil. Never mind the sellers, they wouldn't be making any money if nobody bought Gil.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

I can only propose in the FFXI forums ways in which SE can defeat or at least deter the cheating. It is up to SE to implement actions to significantly diminish the violations. SE won't pay billions of yen to have the staff in the numbers it would need to adequately police all of the FFXI servers with the game having it's current interface and current peer-to-peer exchanges. The only way for SE to deter the ToS violations that are occurring is to remove capabilities for the transgressor(s) to acquire transferable gains deriving from the cheat(s).

Additionally the cheating that commonly occurs is being utilized to undermine the efforts of honest players and drastically diminish the value of valid play.

A deception that propagates the appearance of decorum being instituted by Square-Enix is what we have for existing conditions within FFXI as long as the interface of the game
facilitates those who are breaking the rules declared in the FFXI Terms of Service.

[Alhanelem]

My opinion may be unpopular: I would support an FFXI RL Money <-> Merchant if SE promises the money will be re-invested into the game with more content (the bonus would be that nefarious RMT would disappear too).
No dev or publisher would ever make a promise like that. There has to be profit or there is no reason to continue the operation. Money reinvested into the project is a cost, profit by its very definition kept for the company. It's also selfish of us to demand that the money we pay for the service only go back into the service and not become profit.

We live in a capitalist society and SE is not a charity.

[Stompa]

My opinion may be unpopular: I would support an FFXI RL Money <-> Merchant if SE promises the money will be re-invested into the game with more content (the bonus would be that nefarious RMT would disappear too).

I have played FFXI almost every day since 2004, and during that time, I have spoken to probably thousands of players about the "Cash Shop" system, AKA "Microtransactions" AKA "Jam Today" AKA "Pay To Progress" etc.

I would say that 80% of the people I spoke to are against the Cash Shop system. I would also say that around 25% of those people said they would "quit FFXI forever" if FFXI went to the Cash Shop system.

So, while a Cash Shop system might be popular with some people, especially people who already buy Gil, and the Cash Shop system might pull in a few extra dollars for SE in <That way.> you also have to factor in that another 25% of players might quit the new Cash Shop FFXI game in total disgust.

To go deeper, the people who are the most totally against Cash Shops, are by definition Long Term Subscribers. They are happy with the Jam Tomorrow model. They are happy with working towards Long Term goals, to earn their own Gil, to farm their own gear, to level their own characters in a Role Playing Game way. They are the Long Term FFXI Subscribers, by definition, because they are prepared to play the game by the rules, and this takes a Long Time.

People who want Cash Shops, by definition, are often not prepared to earn stuff themselves, or to do the work themselves, or to wait for Jam Tomorrow. They want Jam Today. Again, by definition, this means they are less likely to stay Long Term Subscribers. If they lack the patience to farm gear and earn Gil, how will they have the patience to stick around for more than a few months after they've bought every item in the Cash Shop. They get Jam Today, they eat it, they quit the game, and go find jam in other games instead.

What makes FFXI so immersive and atmospheric as an RPG, is the long hard journey, and the sense of personal accomplishment, accepting a Long Term Challenge, and overcoming the odds, to emerge finally victorious after playing the game by the strict rules and Beating The Game, using your own personal Gaming Skills and your own cleverness, persistence and fortitude.

To remove the hardships, obstacles, the long hard journey, which is the life of an Adventurer, is to remove the adventure altogether, and all that remains is a bunch of people standing outside the Cash Shop with all their shiny new Dollar Gear, until they get bored and quit the game, and go buy Dollar Gear in a different game instead.

It is a nightmare scenario, and it is the Cultural Steamrollering of a brilliantly designed computer-game, FFXI, which offers immersive long-term challenges and atmospheric Role Playing Game adventuring.
:cool:

[Alhanelem]

The bulk of the FFXI community predates the rise of microtransactions as a monetization system, that's the primary reason so many are against it.

As a rule, i'm not against microtransactions in general, but I am against pay to win. Any extras people can buy need to be entirely cosmetic or convenience. I do have a soft spot for gacha games but those generally give you some currency for free, so it's still possisble to play and play fairly without paying.

[Isola]

The game is already pay-to-win. it just requires an extra step. You just choose not to use it.

Cash shop changes absolutely nothing. except removing one insignificant step and streamlining the process.

[Alhanelem]

The game is already pay-to-win. it just requires an extra step. You just choose not to use it.

Cash shop changes absolutely nothing. except removing one insignificant step and streamlining the process.
I don't count illegitimate, external cheating as part of the game. And while you like to believe everyone buys gil, that's not actually the case. SE didn't design the game this way, its just a thing that happened.

[Isola]

Whether you "count" it or not, it's there.

[Alhanelem]

Whether you "count" it or not, it's there.
It's there, but it's not necessary to "win," unless you're a lazy bum.

The existence of people cheating by external sources does not make the game pay to win.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Micro-transactions (off-topic of the thread topic here) within any title for digital assets that has any cost for purchase of the software, purchase for access to the software, subscription or/and any peer-to-peer (player-to-player) exchanges should be condemned internationally and made illegal in as many nations as possible. Regardless or not if a business strategy is legal, it's just completely horrible results for players and the game developers involved. Below i link a Youtube commentary about a MMORPG that broke the trust of the gaming community.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hi8bIf-GJg