Removal of Mercenaries

[orionis]

I would like to propose an idea to rid the servers of so called "Mercenaries". Essentially someone/a group of people charging huge amounts of gil to gain weapons for someone whom would normally create a group and essentially 'play the game'.

They do this by fighting high level monsters, in a group of characters. A treasure piece would drop, and then they would use another character (in town) to 'yell' for someone to join the party and lot the treasure from the treasure pool for an amount of gil.

We have a situation where people are simply standing there to gain weapons, experience/cp. This completely condracticts the whole concept of FFXI and its fundamental principles. Generally the entire yell screen is buy this or buy that. It's out of control.

What are these people doing with all this gil?

Here is my suggestion:
Alter the treasure pool. Make it so new people can't join the party while there is treasure within the pool. Maybe this will start enticing people to play together once again, face a challenge, and win that piece of weaponary or armor they have been after.

Or I would hate to thing what kind of path this is going to lead us to, if its not nipped in the bud soon.

[Justuas]

Mercs have existed since the beginning of the game.

[Isola]

Alter the treasure pool. Make it so new people can't join the party while there is treasure within the pool.

This should've been a day zero thing that they did. Far too late now.

Also; Songs and Rolls should be dropped if the bard/cor leave the party.

[orionis]

Mercs have existed since the beginning of the game.

That may be the case, it was virtually unknown on the servers I have been on before. If people did it, it was very hush hush and behind the scenes. I never saw any kind of yell for mercing.

Now it's overkill, totally widespread and every other yell shout on Asura. What's the point of a game when you can just stand there and pay for stuff that you would have otherwise joined a group (and had fun) to obtain? As the game is meant to be played.
The treasure pool wasn't designed to be used the way it is used by mercs.

People will always be drawn to an 'easy option'. FFXI was never intended to be easy, which is what made is stand out. Eradicate mercs, and get people out there, doing stuff together, learning and achieving something in the process.

[Afania]

Here is my suggestion:
Alter the treasure pool. Make it so new people can't join the party while there is treasure within the pool. Maybe this will start enticing people to play together once again, face a challenge, and win that piece of weaponary or armor they have been after.


No :<

This should've been a day zero thing that they did. Far too late now.

Also; Songs and Rolls should be dropped if the bard/cor leave the party.



No :< and no...….


First of all, placing a restriction on treasure pool will NOT remove merc in any way. Merc will just invite buyers to pt instead since capable merc will not have any issues carrying a leech in pt. In fact, people also merc master trials and ambuscade, both content doesn't reward people with a treasure pool.

Additionally. It also removed the option for LS/friends to let new people come in and lot stuff. The whole concept of FFXI is to help others and build community, and people frequently do so by saying "anyone need X item in pool" in LS chat. If there's a restriction on treasure pool, then those gears will hit the floor.

Another thing about merc: Its actually one thing that keep vet players playing. I know more than a couple of people that's been playing for years, has capped aeonic, omen drops and everything. Essentially there are no other things to do in game for them except merc and make more money. If merc isn't an option, they'd all just quit because there won't be ANYTHING to do in game when they have every thing.


Top end players are the backbone of community, they organize events for more casual players to join, write guides, share strategy, basically keep the entire community together. I came from a small server, and I know for sure that if some of the more hardcore player quit because they have nothing to do in game, the endgame community would collapse because the rest of player would not go out and organize events, they'd just quit or server transfer. And merc is basically what keep people still log on everyday to do something at this point.

Basically, merc is a thing and necessary, just deal with it. If you don't like seeing yell with it, there are 10+ other server without merc yell for you to choose from, since merc yells pretty much only happen on Asura.

About songs and rolls, having the ability to buff and drop multiple pt gives BRD and COR more "weight" in the alliance. We can invite a brand new COR with a roll set that buffs 3 pt, that'd give them more weight in the alliance and worth a spot.

If buff and drop isn't an option for them, they'd have to do more in the alliance to worth a spot, such as DDing. Essentially that means newer COR are less likely to get invited to high lv endgame because they can't contribute more than 2 rolls.

So no thanks to BRD and COR nerf.

[orionis]

First of all, placing a restriction on treasure pool will NOT remove merc in any way. Additionally. It also removed the option for LS/friends to let new people come in and lot stuff. The whole concept of FFXI is to help others and build community, and people frequently do so by saying "anyone need X item in pool" in LS chat. If there's a restriction on treasure pool, then those gears will hit the floor.


Strange logic. Surely the point is to invite the Linkshell member in the first place (thats the point of a Linkshell, right?). If they need something from said battle, then they will generally want to attend. If they aren't there fighting and having fun for the item they need, then chances are they are not going to be online, afk, or involved in something else.



Another thing about merc: Its actually one thing that keep vet players playing. I know more than a couple of people that's been playing for years, has capped aeonic, omen drops and everything. Essentially there are no other things to do in game for them except merc and make more money. If merc isn't an option, they'd all just quit because there won't be ANYTHING to do in game when they have every thing.


Again, I don't understand the angle you take on this. You are basically saying mercs have nothing to do and do it specifically for gil. If they have done everything in game, then why do they need large amounts of gil?



Top end players are the backbone of community, they organize events for more casual players to join, write guides, share strategy, basically keep the entire community together. I came from a small server, and I know for sure that if some of the more hardcore player quit because they have nothing to do in game, the endgame community would collapse because the rest of player would not go out and organize events, they'd just quit or server transfer. And merc is basically what keep people still log on everyday to do something at this point.


How many of the notorious mercenaries actually do something for the communtity? They stick to their own groups of their own players, or on the rare occasion invite someone else in that they may share a small portion of the gil earned.

[Afania]

Strange logic. Surely the point is to invite the Linkshell member in the first place (thats the point of a Linkshell, right?). If they need something from said battle, then they will generally want to attend. If they aren't there fighting and having fun for the item they need, then chances are they are not going to be online, afk, or involved in something else.


There are times that people farm things in escha solo/duo/trio for KI or different item and one thing happened to drop but nobody in the pt wants them. it's nice and convenient to give it to other member of LS.


They don't "attend" those because those NMs like warder etc are soloable and generally don't require a party to do, nor bringing a bigger party makes them more "fun" to do. It saves everyone's time if other member who need the item do something else and only come into the pt to lot after the item drops.




Again, I don't understand the angle you take on this. You are basically saying mercs have nothing to do and do it specifically for gil. If they have done everything in game, then why do they need large amounts of gil?


People always like to gear more jobs or work on expensive gears, or work on craft shield etc. So there will always be an use for gil.

That's not the case for ex/rare, getting most ex/rare that's not glowy body can be done very very fast.



How many of the notorious mercenaries actually do something for the communtity? They stick to their own groups of their own players, or on the rare occasion invite someone else in that they may share a small portion of the gil earned.


Typically yes, the nature of merc is that the group will be keep small. Because if you bring a bigger group with more people splitting gil resulting less gain per member, people won't come for merc anymore, then you may as well don't do it.

That being said, if the option to do NM for gil is completely removed from the game, they'd just quit altogether. Because having the option to kill stuff and still get something out of it (in this case, gil) after all the ex/rare are obtained, gives people motivation to stay subbed.

Say if you have been playing for 2+ years none stop, What is the point to do omen/escha after you obtain every ex/rare after 2+ years of doing it weekly? None. So why would you do those event again when you already have ex/rare that you need? You may as well cancel account and play a different game. But if you know you'd make money doing omen/escha tonight, this will be a good motivation to log on and keep sub active.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "do something for the community". It doesn't mean charity work, but more about mutual benefits. what I mean is, by staying subbed, those well geared, experienced player would still do random things here and there and play with other players when they are not mercing.

For example, sometimes people who doesn't belong to merc groups that would make ambu PUG and such. And even people that belongs in merc groups would still join those pt when they are bored. If all these well geared, highly experienced player all quit, it would be more difficult to make PUG pt for harder content like ambu VD.

Just because they merc a lot, doesn't mean they can't benefit those who doesn't belong to their groups. They still join other groups for things occasionally. And that benefits people outside of merc groups.

Basically, merc service is like prostitute. It's necessary evil in our community because people need them and benefits from them, and I believe our world is better with them even if it doesn't seem so on surface.

And even if they place a restriction on treasure pool, do you really think all the merc in town would suddenly yell "Escha T2 team up? /tell job" (aka "play together" with others) instead of "escha T2 item buy? /tell"? No they won't. They won't even bother doing those T2 NM because they don't need drops from those NMs. They would just sit in town, got bored and quit.

[Isola]

If people that merc can't find entertainment in this game without ripping people off (pretty much all mercs charge double or even triple what things are actually worth) maybe they should play a different game. I hear WoW just got a new expansion.

[VoiceMemo]

Speaking from my standpoint of playing 12+ years and having everything I want aside from 2 items. 1) Judgement day 2)Finished T4 wwing shield. I merc stuff because 1) it gives incentive for those in my group to continue to go to omen that have everything aside from 1/2 rare drops(bodies, hands).

Are you saying we should just invite people and give them items for free? When we are doing all the work? I help out those I know and my 2nd linkshell which is comprised of majority of new/returning players when I can but I have only so many hours of play time. If you're saying veterans should just help out others out of the goodness of our hearts for free all the time, imo that is akin to slavery already.

I still have an obtainable end game goal of my shield, NPC costs alone for 6 step skillchain will run approximately 130m so gil is still needed.

Anytime I yell to merc omen gear I have negotiable in my yell, so if you don't like the price negotiate. If we can't meet in the middle so be it, no one is forcing you to buy, it is YOUR gil you can use it how you see fit. If you wish to pay others to do the work for you to get a drop no one else has a right to tell you that you can't do it. It is YOUR gil.

FFXI economy mimics IRL economy. Much like how you pay someone with money to do the work for you, IE you hire someone to build a cabinet for you. They do all the work you get the result, you pay them money. Same is it in ffxi, you hire someone to kill a mob for you, you get the item, you pay them gil.

[Afania]

If people that merc can't find entertainment in this game without ripping people off (pretty much all mercs charge double or even triple what things are actually worth) maybe they should play a different game. I hear WoW just got a new expansion.

And why would you want them to play a different game? What's the benefit?

If they stay we have more people to pt with for our ambu VD PUG, we have people to sell our crafted items to, we have people to go for when we need something crafted. The list goes on.

Basically, the bigger the community, the better it is for everybody. If they leave for wow, we'll get a smaller community and why would you want that?




without ripping people off (pretty much all mercs charge double or even triple what things are actually worth)

Gears in MMO isn't life necessity. There are no moral issues involved with "ripping people off".

If you don't like the price, don't pay. Merc didn't take away people's right to get gears "legit".

If someone want to merc, just let them. Even if SE place a treasure pool restriction, people aren't going to magically "play with everybody and have fun". FFXI doesn't work that way.

[Isola]

Less garbage in the pile is better for everyone.

Mercs being and creating more.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

I'm going to chime in here as well. This is a content, interface, development and community interaction. I remember when 'EX' was added to equipment. Content of the game has adapted and evolved along the wishes of SE's dev team and feedback of us the customers. Above VM is absolutely correct about the purely in game based gil sinks, SE has placed these gil sinks into existence purely to counteract the inflation of gil in circulation, the regulation of their perceived value of items sold via NPC vendors and at least over a significant amount of time combats the detrimental activity of unethical behavior of users that violate ToS to exploit sources of wealth accumulation. 99/ilvl119 crafter gil sinks are massive.

That being said, VM is also correct in the case of a chain of linked battle content or a single battle by which multiple direct drops are acquired from said source, the content is of concern here where FFXI has common, uncommon, rare, extremely rare treasure creations. Because of this content and development environment a player or group will encounter many times over duplicate and unwanted treasures that can be distributed within the constraints of bazaar, AH, P2P trade, treasure pool cast lots etc. At one point in the game very desirable and sometimes job changing items which source was an open world "claim" had scoundrels monopolizing the source effectively blocking and bottle-necking others from accessing these sources. The 'EX' tag not being a perfect fix was at least a small effort made on the part of SE to fight a serious problem on their servers. Most battle content of significance released with SoA/Escha however is instanced platform or force spawned battles by which an 'EX' tag corresponding to the treasures is completely unnecessary but due to the behavior of scoundrels in the past SE has overcompensated to combat these exploiters. As within any population where there is a demand there will be a supply, those that are feeding the market are the ones that proliferate the occurrences the original poster has complained about.

The /yell command comes with both it's upsides and downsides. If you have six brain cells you can figure these out so i won't rant on a list of pro's and con's associated with /yell.

I will however initiate some fixes for this topic.

Player/Community fixes:
Don't interact with sellers if you deem them unworthy of your attention. Utilize blacklist if need be.
Create, join and foster teams and linkshells that correspond with your morals and ethics.
RMT is a ToS violation for a reason, DO NOT PROLIFERATE IT.
Discourage ridicule of equipment power whenever you encounter it.

Development/Interface Fixes:
~ Overhaul/Evolve the /seacom feature. At one point there actually was etiquette and utilization of /seacom. The categories had purpose and what you put there was significant. Make this viable again.
~ Expand /search result lists so that these lists are not truncated.
~ Develop new set of NPC economic facilitators that can warehouse and vendor items acquired by players as they determine these items being sellable merchandise or something to purchase. Allow these NPC to exchange all equipment items including those tagged 'EX'. Understandably items tagged 'Aug' can not be accommodated. This might take twelve brain cells to determine gil values and fluctuation of the gil values depending on a supply and demand of each item with limits placed on the rock-bottom and maximum in gil. Place one or more of these NPC in every town/city/commerce zone. All new npc warehousing vendors would be linked server-wide consisting of a unified stockpile of items. Actually developing and implementing this would take significant effort, although the idea is simple the expansion of NPC services by adding these NPC is challenging. For one, personally, i'd rather see this type of improvement in the game made as a priority over the creation of battle content.
~ Enforce fully FFXI ToS as it pertains to the interaction of characters with FFXI environment. Remove all bots, scripting exploiters, automated (AFK) activities.

Thank you for your attention.

[Afania]

Less garbage in the pile is better for everyone.

Mercs being and creating more.

This is a pretty strong word to describe buying and paying for gears. I personally don't understand why would you use the term "garbage" to describe them, outside of "I don't like them so they are garbage".

[DarkValefor]

I don't think mercenaries are a bad thing even tho I'd never pay for getting anything done when I can put in the effort and get it done myself, but the current situation of Asura right now is somehow ridiculous.

New players struggle with NMs that someone geared can kill by themselves within 1 minute and charge you 5M or more for it. I don't think that is helping the community in any way.

The mercenary may think that is a low price because gil is easy to make for them but it's not really that easy for the new player. Also, how is it helping the community when people rather play mules and sell every kind of clear rather than invite people to form a group or a linkshell and actually have parties of people playing one character each?

Anyway the situation you are describing in this post sounds like an issue in one particular server. There are mercenaries probably in every server but what I saw in Asura and what made me leave Asura I don't think it's happening in any other server.

[VoiceMemo]

Which is exactly your choice as well, if you don't like it you have the option to change servers. Same as it's a buyers gil, they can do with it what they want.

[Isola]

That's all well and good. Problem is it creates an unsolvable problem.

When the only barrier to entry is gil, you have what we have now. Absolutely trash tier players with all BiS gear.

While that would still happen, inevitably, regardless, the rate at which it's happening now is straight up ridiculous. This DOES NOT mean that if you earn it, you know how to better use it. It means that you can't be bothered to earn it, and can't be bothered to be capable enough to be playing with others.

There are only 2 kinds of people that get things merced. The ones that over pay, are clueless and just end up being overall negative on the in game environment. Or the ones that just don't feel like doing the same thing a dozen more times since the thing won't drop.

Like I've done pakecet 200 times. If you sell jov bodies for 3m, Yeah I'm gonna take one because I can't be bothered to do it 201 times. But if you sell it to a noob for 20m theres a huge problem. That's the problem that needs to stop.

[VoiceMemo]

The same could be said about PL, or the way fast leveling is. To get my 1st 75 11 years ago it took nearly a year. Leveling too fast does not allow you to learn a job, yet getting to 99 asap seems acceptable now, so where is the uproar over that?

Word also gets around if you're a bad player in end game circles, since the server population is small. So even if you get the BiS gear by mercing, if you don't know the job word will get around.

Skill only takes you so far, gear does the rest. Good players have skill, but with the right gear they become great.

A player that has poor skill will not become good even though they get the BiS gear and it will be evident.

[Afania]

New players struggle with NMs that someone geared can kill by themselves within 1 minute and charge you 5M or more for it. I don't think that is helping the community in any way.


New players doesn't have to pay, they totally have the option to shout "Can someone help me kill an X NM" in town and they are most likely will still get someone bored enough and help them kill for free.

The thing is, for those who doesn't want to help for free because they have something else to do in game, the gil charged are weight against other gil making methods.

It's possible to make 5m/hr from ambuscade with just 1 character and not selling spots. And it's also possible to spend 30 min to 1hr to get someone a drop even if each kill only takes 1 min, especially for Ruann T2 drops.

So if gil charged can't match gil/hr from other activities, then merc isn't worth doing. You may think an NM that takes 1 min kill only worth 300k or something, in reality, you may ended up killing some ruann T2 for an hour and not seeing one single drop, and it's not profitable compare with ambuscade VD.


Then there's also the fact that some NM is tough to solo and need 2 char+, then the gil hr is also being compare against 2 character doing ambu VD for 10m/hr.



The mercenary may think that is a low price because gil is easy to make for them but it's not really that easy for the new player.

unfortunately merc price isn't determined by new players ability to make gil, but weight against other gil making methods in game for the one who is charging for the service.



Also, how is it helping the community when people rather play mules and sell every kind of clear rather than invite people to form a group or a linkshell and actually have parties of people playing one character each?

Even if merc doesn't exist, people aren't going to "play with everybody". I know tons and tons of players who don't merc, they still play with their cliques with absolutely zero interaction with 95% of community. I don't merc either, and I basically don't do anything with anyone outside of LS, minus maybe like 3-5 people from another social LS of mine.

This kind of behaviour is very common in FFXI because everyone has different goals and don't always have something to offer for different groups. It's not really selling gear causing clique to happen, but WIDE variety of content level and how certain content can be extremely selective with jobs, experience and gears. There are tons of people that I really like and would love to play together with, but we just can't because our job spread or ingame goals don't match.

Playing with mules is the same. Sometimes it's easier/faster to use BRD GEO mules than actually communicate with real player and have them do things wrong.

So it's not really merc causing people using mules or play with clique. It's just...part of FFXI.

So what's the issue?
If people's issue is price, there's always option to get them for free via asking for help.
If the issue is clique, I can promise you even if SE ban every single account that sells gear and clear, people will still play with their mules and cliques.
If the issue is yell channel being annoying to read, you can always change server or blist.



When the only barrier to entry is gil, you have what we have now. Absolutely trash tier players with all BiS gear.

Even if merc doesn't exist, we'd just have "absolutely trash tier player without BiS gear" instead, so the situation is the same.

If someone doesn't care to play seriously in FFXI, not having the option to buy gear will not make them better. Because they don't play seriously to begin with.

tl;dr: I'm not convinced that there's moral issue with merc, nor I think any of the "issues" people suggest here happened because of merc. It's more of a personal taste IMO.

[crusher]

Just an observation, it appears that the "Merc" economy is mainly on Asura based on the posts. Years back, when players use to charge for PL services in abyssea, SE, put a stop to it. Now, with their primary focus on FF14 that just surpassed 14M players, they're probably not to worried about FF11 as much as they use to be. Unfortunately, you'll never be able to stop people from selling their services, hence the other forms of media that members can use to advertise whether it's through FFXIAH, Discord, etc. I've been on Asura for a short time from another server myself. I haven't partaken in "Merc" services as I find the content pretty easy and the vast majority of players want to do stuff as a group and learn. So basically, it's a players option on if they want to "earn" or be "gifted" an item. If they want to spend the "gil" to do so, that's their choice. Just my 2 pence worth.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

So, to our original poster Mr. Orionis, have you considered these responses to address your concerns? any further evaluations or specific tid bits of detail to add?

[Stompa]

You can't change the treasure pool system. People D/C during battles, and then they log back in and they should be allowed to join party and cast lots. This has happened to me many times.

Re; [paraphrased] "we need mercs because all the veteran players would quit if they couldn't merc."

What about all the new players who quit because the game is no longer a challenging adventure world to be enjoyed with a group of friends, in a bonding experience that lasts a lifetime?

With mercing, the game loses this friendship and adventure, and becomes just a trip to the Shopping Mall where you just buy everything you need. How many new players have quit because mercing killed all their potential adventures. You need to weigh this alongside how many veterans quit because they can't merc.

Also, not all veterans are involved in merc activities. A lot of veterans spend their free time Helping Other People For Free. A lot of veterans enjoy helping new players. And we do it for FREE!

In fact, being helpful and friendly to new players, is what made FFXI such a special game in the early days.

FFXI was actually famous in the gaming world, for having a strong community spirit, with advanced players who would sacrifice days, weeks, months, even years, just to help another player obtain a single piece of gear, or clear some difficult mission.

The happiest early memories I had in FFXI, have been when another player gave up their own Free Time, just to help me with something, even if it was trivial and beneath them.

My other happiest memories of FFXI are when I have helped new players, by giving up my free time to help them, to get them started in FFXI, and to make them feel comfortable in Vana'diel. It made them happy. And when I saw them being happy, it made me happy.

This is the FFXI spirit that has existed since at least 2004. This is why FFXI is special. We all share a deep love of Vana'diel, and we help each other, because when we help each other, we are making Vana'diel a happier place with a brighter future.

[DarkValefor]

So the best solution for those who want to avoid mercenaries seems to be moving servers, that way mercs can still be doing their thing and you don't have to be dealing with them. Seems fair enough and benefitial to everyone.

I play in Carbuncle at the moment, I played in Asura around 2 years ago for like one year and a half but was unable to play my favourite jobs because almost every group didn't wanna think ahead of the strategies guides stand.

I am very happy playing in a different server than Asura since the lack of population seems to make people less selective for party setups, and it is working great.

The problem we are facing in small servers tho, is a massive lack of supply, it's really hard to find the stuff your job may need in the auction house, more even now that some of that stuff requires escutcheons to make, but it's player's choice what server you play in.

Every server has its advantages and disadvantages, for example, I see people in thr forums complaining or requesting to add more apex mobs but in my server most of the apex camps have been open during this campaign. In the end it's your choice :)

[Afania]

What about all the new players who quit because the game is no longer a challenging adventure world to be enjoyed with a group of friends, in a bonding experience that lasts a lifetime?


Merc doesn't remove new player's ability to enjoy the game with a group of friends. If you want to group with friends, then don't buy gears. Merc doesn't affect you if you don't use merc services.



With mercing, the game loses this friendship and adventure, and becomes just a trip to the Shopping Mall where you just buy everything you need.


Not convinced with this statement.

If this statement is true then what you are saying is FFXI does not have friendship nor adventure this entire time because merc already exist, for very long time.



Also, not all veterans are involved in merc activities. A lot of veterans spend their free time Helping Other People For Free.

I never say ALL vet players only merc but never help others for free. I only said it's a good incentive to keep people keep doing old endgame content like Omen/Escha instead of running out of things to do and quit...

[Stompa]

Merc doesn't remove new player's ability to enjoy the game with a group of friends. If you want to group with friends, then don't buy gears. Merc doesn't affect you if you don't use merc services.
_

Not convinced with this statement.

If this statement is true then what you are saying is FFXI does not have friendship nor adventure this entire time because merc already exist, for very long time.

_

I never say ALL vet players only merc but never help others for free. I only said it's a good incentive to keep people keep doing old endgame content like Omen/Escha instead of running out of things to do and quit...


Well.

New players join the game, they don't know how it is played, and they are looking to Veteran Players for GUIDANCE.

As we see in this thread, many of the Veteran players are /yelling merc shouts all day.

New players hear the wall-to-wall merc yells all day, and just assume that just buying progress from veteran mercs, is how everybody plays the game.

I was on Remora for six years, and I never heard a single merc shout, not once, in six years. We had no choice but to play the game, camp our own NMs, learn to play our jobs expertly, learn to deal with failure, and develop endurance to attain long-term goals. The option of buying from mercs did not exist, not for 99% of normal players on our server. So we made our own friend groups, our own linkshells, and we beat the game by ourselves, the way the game was intended to be played. And in doing so, we developed stout friendships that have lasted for sixteen years.

On Leviathan, I have heard maybe three merc shouts in eight years. Again, a new player is unlikely to hear merc shouts. They will play the game, and team up with other new players to have exciting adventures, and form lasting friendships.

Yes, it is true, that we can all do whatever we want, but a new player is looking to Veterans for Guidance. New players place their trust in Veterans. And if Veterans are acting like Gangster Mercs, just selling everything, then the new players are going to think that this is normal traditional FFXI behaviour, which it is not. This was always an outlaw minority behaviour, until recent times, on certain servers.

And if we take a group of ten new adventurers, five of them hear all the /yells and decide to join a merc run, the remaining five new adventurers will have lost five potential allies, who could have played the game with them, in the normal adventuring way. Eventually all ten of them will just go join the merc runs, since they will feel left out if they decide to play the game normally.

I am opposed to mercenary, gangster, bandit activity. I feel it kills the adventuring RPG spirit of the game. It steals adventures and friendships from entire generations of new players.

What we are talking about is the dynamic situation at ground level. Not little pinhole mini-quotes on a forum.

[Sirmarki]

So the best solution for those who want to avoid mercenaries seems to be moving servers

Not at all, that would be a pretty regressive step. The less populated servers won't be around forever, eventually they will all be merged down into larger/populated servers.
Smaller servers are good if you have a good solid group, and commitment. PUG shouts are very uncommon (you can see that in the yell history on smaller servers) - Anyway, that's a whole other discussion.

The problem is with mercing is the true intention behind it, and if it's legitimate or not. Does it break TOS? Where does the gil end up? and is there third party software involved (ie bots)?
I also can't see how repeat killing of the same monsters all day long is "fun" (for anyone). I would think its the least thing any "veteran" would want to do, who has completed most aspects of the game. It's almost like a job.

[Afania]

Well.

New players join the game, they don't know how it is played, and they are looking to Veteran Players for GUIDANCE.

As we see in this thread, many of the Veteran players are /yelling merc shouts all day.

New players hear the wall-to-wall merc yells all day, and just assume that just buying progress from veteran mercs, is how everybody plays the game.

I was on Remora for six years, and I never heard a single merc shout, not once, in six years. We had no choice but to play the game, camp our own NMs, learn to play our jobs expertly, learn to deal with failure, and develop endurance to attain long-term goals. The option of buying from mercs did not exist, not for 99% of normal players on our server. So we made our own friend groups, our own linkshells, and we beat the game by ourselves, the way the game was intended to be played. And in doing so, we developed stout friendships that have lasted for sixteen years.

On Leviathan, I have heard maybe three merc shouts in eight years. Again, a new player is unlikely to hear merc shouts. They will play the game, and team up with other new players to have exciting adventures, and form lasting friendships.

Yes, it is true, that we can all do whatever we want, but a new player is looking to Veterans for Guidance. New players place their trust in Veterans. And if Veterans are acting like Gangster Mercs, just selling everything, then the new players are going to think that this is normal traditional FFXI behaviour, which it is not. This was always an outlaw minority behaviour, until recent times, on certain servers.

And if we take a group of ten new adventurers, five of them hear all the /yells and decide to join a merc run, the remaining five new adventurers will have lost five potential allies, who could have played the game with them, in the normal adventuring way. Eventually all ten of them will just go join the merc runs, since they will feel left out if they decide to play the game normally.

I am opposed to mercenary, gangster, bandit activity. I feel it kills the adventuring RPG spirit of the game. It steals adventures and friendships from entire generations of new players.

What we are talking about is the dynamic situation at ground level. Not little pinhole mini-quotes on a forum.

It only seem that way because the progression is different from 75 era I think. people did sell items at 75, just those are endgame drops like sea drops, sky gear etc. Majority of new players can't even use these item without a 75 job, nor afford it.

In 75, majority of new player would spend months* to lv a job to 75, but now instead of spending months to lv 99 they spend the same amount of time to gear up character doing beginner endgame or CP pt. Safe to say that the "beginner's endgame" content these days are equal to EXP pt at 75.

But yeah, merc always exist in game. Just that the demographic spread to wider audiences(for both buyer and seller) in 2018.

About your argument that "play the game intended to be played". I do agree that the game is a lot different from 75 days now, and people are less patient, and less likely to make friends, or group with others. but I don't think merc is the only reason causing all these. I blame QoL changes.

Ever since SE introduce trusts, homepoint, etc, game became a LOT more solo friendly and game pace became a LOT faster. Once playerbase are used to a faster paced game, they live in a world that everything just....happens so much faster. As a result, everyone become less patient. Pt has to happen in 30 min(instead of 3hr like 75 days), endgame item has to obtained in less than an hour(instead of months or years like 75 days). Since trust exist, we no longer need to rely on others for most things, so we stop making friends because that's not all that necessary.

Merc service is just the result of people's desire to make progress faster and spend less energy to build connections in a video game. Chicken or egg first? SE created this "everything comes and goes fast" FFXI in the first place, not merc.

Like I said, there are no moral issue with mercing. People desperately look for a target to point fingers if the game changes into something that they don't like, but if there are no market nor desire to make progress faster solo, why would merc even exist?

I think at this point we should just accept the fact that game is already heading toward a direction that you and me may not like. And deal with it. Nothing can be done otherwise until SE make FFXI even more time consuming and less solo friendly than it currently is. Currently there are no sign of SE heading that direction at all

[Stompa]

It only seem that way because the progression is different from 75 era I think. people did sell items at 75, just those are endgame drops like sea drops, sky gear etc. Majority of new players can't even use these item without a 75 job, nor afford it.

In 75, majority of new player would spend months* to lv a job to 75, but now instead of spending months to lv 99 they spend the same amount of time to gear up character doing beginner endgame or CP pt. Safe to say that the "beginner's endgame" content these days are equal to EXP pt at 75.

But yeah, merc always exist in game. Just that the demographic spread to wider audiences(for both buyer and seller) in 2018.

About your argument that "play the game intended to be played". I do agree that the game is a lot different from 75 days now, and people are less patient, and less likely to make friends, or group with others. but I don't think merc is the only reason causing all these. I blame QoL changes.

Ever since SE introduce trusts, homepoint, etc, game became a LOT more solo friendly and game pace became a LOT faster. Once playerbase are used to a faster paced game, they live in a world that everything just....happens so much faster. As a result, everyone become less patient. Pt has to happen in 30 min(instead of 3hr like 75 days), endgame item has to obtained in less than an hour(instead of months or years like 75 days). Since trust exist, we no longer need to rely on others for most things, so we stop making friends because that's not all that necessary.

Merc service is just the result of people's desire to make progress faster and spend less energy to build connections in a video game. Chicken or egg first? SE created this "everything comes and goes fast" FFXI in the first place, not merc.

Like I said, there are no moral issue with mercing. People desperately look for a target to point fingers if the game changes into something that they don't like, but if there are no market nor desire to make progress faster solo, why would merc even exist?

I think at this point we should just accept the fact that game is already heading toward a direction that you and me may not like. And deal with it. Nothing can be done otherwise until SE make FFXI even more time consuming and less solo friendly than it currently is. Currently there are no sign of SE heading that direction at all

I do agree with you on several points, particularly the increased speed.

I was opposed to the rise from level 75 to level 99, and I was opposed the ilvl system. The reason for this is that it turns all the old areas into Ghost Towns, full of too-weak mobs and feeble NMs that drop level 1-75 gear which is no longer relevant.

I feel that we should have kept level 75, and just added new exotic level 75 gear, and new level 75 areas, instead of going to 99 and ilvl. This would have kept the old areas alive and vibrant, and dangerous!

Also I was opposed to the Exp Spikes, with base Exp going from 15 Exp for EP mobs, to basically 3000 Exp for EP mobs if you wear a certain ring and fight at certain times. The avalanche of bonus Exp from RoE etc. was also a bad idea, imho.

I miss the old Exp parties. They were social, I made new friends every day, when I joined Exp parties. They gave the game a solid adventuring backbone.

I don't see trusts as a problem, as they are inferior to real players. If anything, Trusts remind us how important real players are, and why it is better to have human friends than AI constructs. I see Trusts as a fun strategy mini-game, a stop-gap which is optional, and serves to remind us of the importance of having real friends to party with.

I don't really have a problem with home-point warps, although I think there should be a lot less of them in towns, and hardly any in in wilderness areas.

But despite the (in my opinion) major mistakes, especially the rise from level 75 to 119, and the XP avalanche, etc. I still play the game and I still love Vana'diel, and I don't merc stuff. I just help people who ask me for help, or people who /shout for help.

I don't blame SE for changing the game, they were adapting to try and attract a far less patient generation of gamers, who didn't want to wait and struggle to get to level 75. The changes happened, but I believe that the intentions behind those changes were good intentions, although deeply misguided and with ultimately sorrowful consequences.

But I don't believe that becoming a Merc is an appropriate response to the faster game. I prefer to play my locked level 75 mules, in the old areas, and to keep the memories of the old game alive, in my small circle of likeminded friends. This is more fun than being a Merc, and it is keeping an important traditional FFXI gaming culture alive, even though this level 75 culture is now no longer the mainstream FFXI game.

[Sirmarki]

Merc doesn't remove new player's ability to enjoy the game with a group of friends. If you want to group with friends, then don't buy gears. Merc doesn't affect you if you don't use merc services.

So if NPC's were added selling all the equipment from every single battle, then that's fine?

It's the exact same thing, and it would have a negative effect on the game.

[Isola]

So if NPC's were added selling all the equipment from every single battle, then that's fine?

It's the exact same thing, and it would have a negative effect on the game.

Pretty much this. You would just be allowed to buy r/e gear from NPCs, it's literally no different. Matter of fact, I'd love to be able to pay NPCs for gear. NPCs can't price gouge.

AND it creates a gil sink. Which despite Squares best effort, cannot do. You just solved all the problems accidentally.

[Afania]

So if NPC's were added selling all the equipment from every single battle, then that's fine?

It's the exact same thing, and it would have a negative effect on the game.


It's not, lol.

Buying gears from NPC directly(without another group actually enter the content and do them) shorten content's lifespan. Merc service actually prolong content's lifespan because endgame groups continue to do content after gears capped.

The difference being community ended up doing content less if everyone buys gear from NPC, and everyone (at least merc) do content more times if they merc.


Pretty much this. You would just be allowed to buy r/e gear from NPCs, it's literally no different.


So people do Omen once to unlock gears from NPC to buy, then never enter Omen again. Instead of do Omen for 2 years so they can continue to get something out of it after ex/rare capped? Big difference.

The entire point of MMO is that content should last as long as possible and people do them as much as possible too, not the other way around.

[Isola]

The entire point of MMO is that content should last as long as possible and people do them as much as possible too, not the other way around.

You cannot take this stance, AND say mercs are a good thing. This IS mutually exclusive.

Mercs ruin content. Period. This is not debatable.

Buying it from anyone (or anything) is still buying it and killing the content faster.

[Sirmarki]

It's not, lol. Buying gears from NPC directly(without another group actually enter the content and do them) shorten content's lifespan. Merc service actually prolong content's lifespan because endgame groups continue to do content after gears capped.


It is, you can't differentiate it. Pay an NPC for the item, or pay a player = the same result. There is no content to shorten - they (the buyer) aren't engaging in any content. The player enters the zone/party and lots an item and leaves, or stands there and waits for it to drop, and then leaves. The only people doing the content is the fixed/set group of mercs, they have no other interest in anything over than gil generation, within their own setup, so pretty much zero community interaction.

SE produced Ex gear for a reason...

[Afania]

It is, you can't differentiate it. Pay an NPC for the item, or pay a player = the same result. There is no content to shorten - they (the buyer) aren't engaging in any content. The player enters the zone/party and lots an item and leaves, or stands there and waits for it to drop, and then leaves. The only people doing the content is the fixed/set group of mercs, they have no other interest in anything over than gil generation, within their own setup, so pretty much zero community interaction.

SE produced Ex gear for a reason...

How can you not tell the difference between paying a player and paying an NPC? You are only discussing the difference from buyer's pov but not from entire game.

If buyer buys 3 Ou items from NPC for 30m total, buyer didn't engage the content, nobody kills Ou, the gil that they paid to the NPC are gone from the economy, forever.

If buyer buys 3 Ou items from merc for 60m total, buyer didn't engage the content, but merc has to enter the content and kill Ou a couple of times for those items, then the merc will use those 60m that they made to buy su5, HQs, REMA currency. So crafter's SU5 got sold, ambuscade PT made money from currency, and Ou got killed more than a couple of times that SE didn't waste their time design Ou. It benefits crafters, ambu PT, and SE game designers altogether. Game content gets longer lifespan because at least merc still enters Omen and kill Ou repeatly.

Someone mentioned buyers got screwed because they are paying more to merc. But if you don't buy gears, then price doesn't affect you. If you buy gears, then you are only asking gears buyable from NPC so it benefits you. And if you hate people afking and get gears, guess what? It's a (tough) price that they have to pay for afking and get gears. If you're not happy with the price from merc, then farm your own gears.

Atm it seems to me that people just want paying NPC for gears "because it's cheaper" which benefits buyers. Does paying NPC for cheaper ex/rare gears benefit those who don't buy gears? No.



The only people doing the content is the fixed/set group of mercs, they have no other interest in anything over than gil generation, within their own setup, so pretty much zero community interaction.

I spent pages explaining how merc is not the reason why people only play with their own clique, it seems that you haven't get it.

Even if SE ban every single account that merc, people will still play within their own setup. Merc is not the only reason causing this. I know more than a couple of people who don't merc, they still play with mules and alts and never join any PUG, nor invite anyone into their clique.

tl;dr: In an ideal world, of course everyone should farm their own gears and play with people. The fact is that some people just aren't going to invest that much time and effort in a video game to play it the hard way, whether merc exist or not. In that case, merc is the best option we get. So at least those not-serious players get a goal to work on so they don't quit, and vet players get things to do in old content so they don't quit. The community size sustained as a result. This option is way better than casual player and serious player both quitting because they can't group or run out of things to do.

[Xilk]

I think trying to stop players from merc'ing is a rather silly idea.

[orionis]

So, to our original poster Mr. Orionis, have you considered these responses to address your concerns? any further evaluations or specific tid bits of detail to add?

Well opinions differ, but just how many of the people who have commented are involved in mercing? Some have already admitted it.

[orionis]

I think trying to stop players from merc'ing is a rather silly idea.

Can you elaborate a bit more?

[Xilk]

FFXI is a multiplayer game that demands alot of player interaction.

Mercenary services fall completely within this paradigm. Its meaningful player interaction.

It takes a silly amount of player restriction to try stop this, and there is not compelling reason to do so. You may as well try to ban selling outside of bazaar or ah.

"oops, nope you can't actual make trades to help ppl out!" "Cutting deals is only allowed if you register all deals w/ Goobernment!"


its like telling people they can't loan money to a friend or buy 2nd hand goods.

[Sirmarki]

Mercenary services fall completely within this paradigm. Its meaningful player interaction.

I wouldn't call joining a merc party, paying/casting lot on equipment and then leaving, a "meaningful player interaction". They have about as much interaction with them, than they would buying a shield from an NPC.

Items that are meant to be sold don't carry the "Ex", like I said it's there for a reason.

[Xilk]

You do not need to participate if you do not find it satisfactory. The quality of your experience is up to you and your companions for the endeavor.

Stating that you had a bad experience with Mercenary party, therefore SE should try to ban other players from having a any experience, with it, good or bad, is absurd.

[Isola]

Stating that you had a bad experience with Mercenary party, therefore SE should try to ban other players from having a any experience, with it, good or bad, is absurd.

I don't think I saw anyone say that.

Mercs are bad for longevity. If you like the game, you can't like mercs. but, there really is no way to get rid of them, it's pissing into the wind.

[Sirmarki]

Stating that you had a bad experience with Mercenary party, therefore SE should try to ban other players from having a any experience, with it, good or bad, is absurd.

Where did I state that?

FYI: I've never used a Mercenary Party.

[Afania]

I wouldn't call joining a merc party, paying/casting lot on equipment and then leaving, a "meaningful player interaction". They have about as much interaction with them, than they would buying a shield from an NPC.

Items that are meant to be sold don't carry the "Ex", like I said it's there for a reason.

If FFXI is a single player RPG then what you said about ex items would have been true.

But FFXI is an MMORPG, there are (supposed to be) more than one way of getting ex gears via social element, fighting NMs "legit" with a party is not the only way.

You can cyber with LS leader for gears, help LS leader 10 years ago when he was a noob for free leech opportunities, obtain points from other events for gears, exchange some kind of deal with endgame groups for gears, and the list goes on. It's all part of MMORPG gameplay.




Mercs are bad for longevity


There are no evidence to support this though.



If you like the game, you can't like mercs.

My stance on merc is completely neutral unless there's evidence to support that merc is indeed bad for the game. There are no "like" nor "dislike" about them in this case.

If there's any legit reason causing myself to dislike merc, that would be certain merc are so damn rich that they set new SU5 gear stanting price at 500m because that's how much they paid for it. But again, I have no evidence to support merc is the reason behind SU5 price, so it's emotional argument/assumptions at best.

[Xilk]

Where did I state that?

FYI: I've never used a Mercenary Party.

If that's true, then your opinion quoted below is completely worthless. You cannot make valid statements about the quality of interaction if you have no such experience.

Experience Trumps opinion 100% of the time. You imply experience in below quote, then deny it in above. Your words are wind and you have no cred.


I wouldn't call joining a merc party, paying/casting lot on equipment and then leaving, a "meaningful player interaction". They have about as much interaction with them, than they would buying a shield from an NPC.

Items that are meant to be sold don't carry the "Ex", like I said it's there for a reason.

[Sirmarki]

If that's true, then your opinion quoted below is completely worthless. You cannot make valid statements about the quality of interaction if you have no such experience.

Experience Trumps opinion 100% of the time. You imply experience in below quote, then deny it in above. Your words are wind and you have no cred.

How much quality of interaction can you get by entering a zone and lotting on an item already in a treasure pool, with a battle that you took no part in?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to establish that a scenario like that involves zero interaction other than "Cast lot". Please explain to me how that is exciting/engaging/social?

Come on, sell this 'quality of interaction' to me..

[Afania]

How much quality of interaction can you get by entering a zone and lotting on an item already in a treasure pool, with a battle that you took no part in?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to establish that a scenario like that involves zero interaction other than "Cast lot". Please explain to me how that is exciting/engaging/social?

Come on, sell this 'quality of interaction' to me..

If you seriously value quality of interaction, you always have the choice to change to a different server.....You can't have the best of both worlds.

One pros(can be cons for some people) that I really really like about small server is that players are forced to spend much more effort on connection building, because we just don't get to log on and join random PUG whenever we want. We absolutely have to rely on friends/ls like 75 days on small servers.


As a result, player progressions comes at slower pace because most of the time you are probably helping LS/friends instead of join PUG and get things done ASAP, or seek HQ crafters for HQ stuff/food instead of buy them straight from AH. On the other hand, the distance between players are a lot closer because everyone probably spend a LOT more time on social aspect of the game than big servers like Asura.

This is probably another reason why merc yells are a lot more common on Asura. There are multiple people on the forum cited "don't need to join endgame LS to get gears" as pros of Asura, because they don't want to commit their time to statics or endgame LS. But in the end of day, they are missing out real "quality of interaction" in game if they don't invest their time on people around them to begin with.


It's this entire "I don't need LS, I'm not going to dedicate my time to LS, I want my stuff ASAP with minimal investment" trend that gives people incentive to pay gil and get things done faster.

So you picked a server with alot less incentive to reach out to people and build meaningful connections, then complained about people not willing to build connections and just merc. Then proceed to argue that how game system should change(in a bad way) to accommodate Asura needs. It's like Asura people start CP camp complain thread and 7 pages of AH drama over CP camp because Asura are entitled to everything.

You know, sometimes you just have to accept the fact that if you want convenience, you'd have to sacrifice something*. In the case of Asura, it's convenient when it comes to do things with pick up group at random time. And (IMO) that means less opportunity to invest your time on friends/lsmate for greater return.

Don't get me wrong, I think Asura has it's perks. Especially at retaining new players from FFXIV or other modern MMO, those games also require minimal time investment on social aspects. And those players from modern MMO are probably more likely to stay on Asura if they are used to joining random party recruit in public.


Like wise, Asura is probably more appealing to people who prefer not to invest their time on a video game with internet strangers.

But that's probably the entire reason why there are higher % of people prefer to buy gears on Asura. When you have tons of people who prefer minimal social investment in a video game and picked a server for their preference, it becomes a trend.

[Sirmarki]

If you seriously value quality of interaction, you always have the choice to change to a different server.....You can't have the best of both worlds.

Huh? I moved from a quiet server, as did everyone I know (20+ people). It was a ghost town with one shout probably over a 4 hour period. There is very little quality of interaction there, unless I tend to spend most of the time talking to myself, or my trusts.
The other thing is that it is unlikely low population servers will exist for much longer. What is the point of keeping a world open when it has 150 people online?

"Like wise, Asura is probably more appealing to people who prefer not to invest their time on a video game with internet strangers. "
So, basically you are saying that they should be on 'quieter servers'?

I'm also not referring to my personal experience. There is no way it is good for anyone, on the concepts FFXI is built on.

Linkshell Chat:
Player 1: Anyone interested in forming a group and getting xxxx weapon/gear from <insert NM here>?
Player 2: I'm good thanks, got that from a merc the other day, cost me 2mil.
Player 3: Kinda busy at the moment.
Player 4: Yeh same for me, paid a merc, 2mil? I paid 3m, damn.

A opportunity right there and then where someone is looking to form a group within their Linkshell is now blown out of the water..

[Afania]

It was a ghost town with one shout probably over a 4 hour period. There is very little quality of interaction there, unless I tend to spend most of the time talking to myself, or my trusts.


The fact that you even mention "shout" shows that you either don't know how player interaction works on small servers, or small server just isn't for you.

Small server people don't "shout" to get things done. Instead we get things done with LS/static/friends only. In order to be successful on small servers, you absolutely can't stand in town and shout/wait for shout.

So what does that mean? That means we actively send /tell to existing groups and build connections (even if we don't know them) with groups. And maintain our relationship with those groups by offering help, participate events, or pt with them in content like ambu. Sometimes we need to change our schedule to accommodate other groups schedule so entire time can work together. Sometimes we need to change how we behave in game to build more rapport with other players so we work together better.

For example, there were one person on my server who would shout for "ambuscade please invite me" for hours. Then proceed to attack endgame LSs/groups for not inviting him and being an elitist dick, and threaten to leave for Asura if he doesn't get invite. Obviously that kind of attitude didn't get him any invite at all. And he disappear after a few weeks.

Had him sent /tell ask for an invite nicely, he would have get into more groups. But he choose not to put effort in changing his behaviour, so he doesn't get the the benefit from other groups.

On the other hand, existing endgame groups on small server clears dyna wave 3(hardest content in game) 2 weeks after release. Why do you think they are successful at clearing hard content this fast despite our avg player gear quality is lower than Asura? Because those who stayed on the server stick together like glue. There's a very strong, tight-knit community with tons of trust on small server because we absolutely need to rely on each other for everything.

And THAT is what I mean by "quality interactions". People who put thoughts and efforts on building positive relationships gets rewarded with strong, tight-knit community that stick together. Those who choose not to invest time on other people around them, they can't progress. There are actually incentive that forces people to work together on small servers.

A lot of people don't understand this. They log on small servers, sit in town, see no shout, then went "dead server" and left without trying. It's their choice to chase a different and easier life style, but just don't complain when you actually lose something chasing a different life style

You can keep complaining servers being dead or no interaction etc, but the fact is, we still clear everything and anything no matter how high the content difficulty is. And we still have no problem doing every endgame content in a full alliance. Last dyna wave 3 run we even had 22 people wanting to come and some has to sit out. If it's really "dead" like you said, we wouldn't fill up the alliance so easily.


The other thing is that it is unlikely low population servers will exist for much longer. What is the point of keeping a world open when it has 150 people online?


When it comes to the depth(not width) of player interaction, 150 is just right. I'd say even 50 is just right. It's about the size that you can learn everyone's name, know their preferred playstyle, preferred job, and adjust your behaviour to match theirs so they work together. That is way more important when it comes to quality of interaction.

Having 2000+ people on a server doesn't help in this case.


I'm also not referring to my personal experience. There is no way it is good for anyone, on the concepts FFXI is built on.

Linkshell Chat:
Player 1: Anyone interested in forming a group and getting xxxx weapon/gear from <insert NM here>?
Player 2: I'm good thanks, got that from a merc the other day, cost me 2mil.
Player 3: Kinda busy at the moment.
Player 4: Yeh same for me, paid a merc, 2mil? I paid 3m, damn.

A opportunity right there and then where someone is looking to form a group within their Linkshell is now blown out of the water..

Like I said, Asura rewards people who wants to get things done faster with minimal social investments. When you play on a server that you can log on anytime you want and join CP pt, ambu pt, SR pt and leave/rage quit pt without saying a word with no consequences, the quality of player interaction are as low as possible.

People's desire to pay for gear is just the result of everyone wants to get things done as fast as possible, with as minimal social investment as possible. Merc service is just the result of people's desire to live such lifestyle.

Asking SE to ban merc doesn't solve the fundamental issue of (many) players on Asura aren't as close to each other as small servers, and prefers faster progression over social interactions.

Oh btw, this is (roughly) what my LS chat about merc looks like the other day:

Player 1: Hey, X(name of someone outside of LS) needs a drop from Kin, he said he wants to pay merc for it.
Player 2: Oh I know X for years, I'd like to help him get it so he doesn't need to pay for merc.
Player 3: I would like to help him too.
Player 4: I can help too.
Player 1: So can we invite him to our next Kin run? Or do Kin for him sometimes. What time are you available?

Long story short: People are willing to help when they know each other for years. That is how you eliminate merc - Develop better and more tight-knit relationship. And the reason why I still play on small server is because this kind of relationship is commonly seen here.

[Sirmarki]

The fact that you even mention "shout" shows that you either don't know how player interaction works on small servers, or small server just isn't for you.

Small servers are obviously not for the vast majority, seeing as the vast majority have left the small servers.


Long story short: People are willing to help when they know each other for years. That is how you eliminate merc - Develop better and more tight-knit relationship. And the reason why I still play on small server is because this kind of relationship is commonly seen here.

That's great if you have a solid group, trust worthy, online in the same time zones, and committed. However, this kind of 'solid group' and trust takes a long time to build up.

Have you ever played on Asura?

[Afania]

However, this kind of 'solid group' and trust takes a long time to build up.

Yup it does, very very long time in fact, word can't describe amount of time and hours required to build a tight-knit event group. But like everything else in FFXI, the more time you invest into something, the greater return you get.

Jobs, gears, and connections, it's all like that. If you want minimal time investment into something, especially with people, then you don't get the trust and familiarity that you look for in return, it's simple as that.


Merc is the result of this, not the reason behind it.

[Stompa]

Yup it does, very very long time in fact, word can't describe amount of time and hours required to build a tight-knit event group. But like everything else in FFXI, the more time you invest into something, the greater return you get.

Jobs, gears, and connections, it's all like that. If you want minimal time investment into something, especially with people, then you don't get the trust and familiarity that you look for in return, it's simple as that.


Merc is the result of this, not the reason behind it.


Actually mercing is both the result and the reason, they are not mutually exclusive. It is a vicious circle. The more people use mercs, the bigger it gets, as it becomes normalised. Lethargy, laziness, and greed become normalised. It snowballs.

The reasons why mercing is growing on certain servers, is multifaceted, and not just restricted to people not making connections, or forming trusted static groups, etc.

The availability of, and acceptance of, Gilbuying, is another main reason for the rise of mercs. Gilbuying and mercing are symbiotic, because if a player is working hard to earn a lot of Gil, why would they squander that hard-earned Gil on merc services. It makes more sense to keep that money, and do events and form friendships, as these things are time-consuming, but so is farming Gil.

When I started in 2004, on Remora at least, Gilbuying was considered a sign of personal failure. If you bought Gil, it meant that you were a low-quality Gamer, who needed to cheat to attain progress.

Similarly, using merc services also meant that you had accepted your own failure as a Gamer. You weren't even trying to overcome the challenges of the game.

This is about a change in the mainstream culture of the game, the embracing of personal failure. "I can't farm my own Gil, so I'll just buy it instead" is married to "I can't form a lasting static group of friends, and overcome the challenges in the game, so I'll just pay mercs instead."

Gilbuying and mercing both thrive when Gamers stop having the moral fortitude, and adventurer spirit, to actually overcome the game's challenges, using skills, teamwork, and perseverance.

Gilbuying and the use of mercs, are both signs of personal failure, as a Gamer. If you can't earn your own Gil, then you are not playing the game right. If you can't team-up and organise events to try and beat the game, then you are not playing the game right.

I think it is better to set your standards lower, and be realistic, than to cheat and obtain things that you didn't actually earn with your own Gamer skills.

I would sooner not obtain high-end stuff, than obtain it by cheating. Because I like to play the game as it was intended.

And I recognise that I will not always win, I will not always obtain the best stuff, but at least I'm trying to win by playing the game properly, to the best of my own Gamer skills, instead of just cheating.

It is better to be a real Gamer, with a normal amount of Gil and some decent gear, and some good adventuring friends. Rather than be a Cheat, with masses of unearned Gil, unearned top-tier gear, and no real adventuring friends.
:)

[Glizdus]

Such topic could only create a person from Asura ;)
Just jump servers.
You'll be always welcome on Bahamut ;)

[VoiceMemo]

What about the situation when a static group has near all the items they want aside from a few rare items? My example is omen, where some in my group still have yet to get bodies and a few hands from ou. We continue to do omen, so for us it only makes sense to sell the items which we no longer want. Yes it is possible to give them away for free, but I don't know a group of people that would do this. Altruism only goes so far to random people, why should we just give items away when we're the ones doing all the work. Or would you rather us let them fall to the ground? Which seems like a huge waste to me.

[Sirmarki]

What about the situation when a static group has near all the items they want aside from a few rare items? My example is omen, where some in my group still have yet to get bodies and a few hands from ou. We continue to do omen, so for us it only makes sense to sell the items which we no longer want. Yes it is possible to give them away for free, but I don't know a group of people that would do this. Altruism only goes so far to random people, why should we just give items away when we're the ones doing all the work. Or would you rather us let them fall to the ground? Which seems like a huge waste to me.

A bit like the sheer amount of stuff that gets wasted through mercs who can't sell stuff within 5 minutes because they are charging an extortionate rate?

if its going to 'drop to the floor' anyway, just give it away. Why would you need/want to charge someone in the situation you have mentioned?

[orionis]

Now its gone from crazy, to just laughable.

https://i.imgur.com/ol4DSod.gif

[VoiceMemo]

A bit like the sheer amount of stuff that gets wasted through mercs who can't sell stuff within 5 minutes because they are charging an extortionate rate?

if its going to 'drop to the floor' anyway, just give it away. Why would you need/want to charge someone in the situation you have mentioned?

FFXI economy is based off of the free market where we(the players) set the rules.

It is no different like the high end fruit market in japan.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kevintang/inside-japans-most-insanely-expensive-fruit-parlor

For my analogy, we the players selling the excess goods are the farmers. The fruits come in nq and hq. The nq ones sold at the lower rate, the hq ones sold at auction, or in our case kept. I'm using the fruit analogy since fruit have a limited life span which is akin to the game 5 min pool.

So you're saying instead of selling the lower fruit we should just give them away, even though we did all the hard work to get them? FFXI economy is based of the real world, no one in the real would do this. You think the farmers of these expensive fruit should give them away? Or just let them fall to the ground and rot and get no money for them?

Us selling the stuff we don't want is no different than these farmers in the real world selling the nq fruit at these high prices.

There is free will in game too, my group does NOT FORCE people to come with us and trade the gil. Every time I yell, I have "negotiate" in my yell. If you don't like the price, negotiate, if we can't reach a deal then just don't go. How is this any different to the real world (ie when buying a home) where people that have goods and want to sell them to people that want to buy them, but don't want to pay the listed price.

If you truly believe in the situation where stuff you don't need should be given away, when you get a drop you don't need do you just give it to the first person that needs it, instead of selling it on the AH. Or you should be just tossing the items you no longer want to the ground.

Just because these items have the EX tag makes no difference in the comparison, we just have buyers ready to go in case an item drops.

[Valefor4life]

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/127/d/9/wambulance_by_fluidgirl82-d64hnlv.png

[VoiceMemo]

The REAL issue is the RMT that are buying/selling gil. Getting rid of merc is not the issue, get rid of the RMT that add gil to the economy. Less gil in the economy and prices will drop. IE get rid of all the botters in Palborough Mines and the illgotten shields that were created from botting would solve more issues.

[Isola]

Not even close. The real issue is Sparks. End of story.

Everything is SEVERELY f-ed up because you can make a hundred million gil in 4 hours.

[Nyarlko]

Not even close. The real issue is Sparks. End of story.

Everything is SEVERELY f-ed up because you can make a hundred million gil in 4 hours.

That's a rather extreme exaggeration, unless you are talking about lottery-luck HQ streaks for a crafter or an extreme multiboxer(. Even if we're only talking 1mil in that time tho, that is like 1000% more than what most of us made Back In The Day™, so you do have a point. Along with the increased income potential however, gil has severely devaluated since then, so it really doesn't have as much meaning now, so people are more willing to part with large quantities of it.

I say that the true root of all evil in FFXI is simply that (most?) players are humans, and humans are jerks by default.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Bring out the ban stick, the enormous amount of detrimental ToS violations that occur every min of every hour in game is how the in-game econ gets corrupted. There's a % of users that break the ToS to obtain obscene amounts of gil or item collection related to crafting merchandise with the intentions of generating the illegitimate masses of gil. Whatever their violation is; be it automated item farming, monopolization of an item source, RMT sell of gil, RMT purchase of gil or corruption of in-game content mechanics. Whatever the crime is, it is detrimental to all those who obey ToS rules. Much of this could be lazily blamed on content being created that is weak to exploitation, but no matter the difficulty there is going to be a % of users that will attain the ability to exploit any difficulty of content as it concerns player to environment interactions. The two resources the game provider (SE staff) have are the removal of accounts that are corrupting the intentions of content mechanics and environmental interactions, and the correct development of content to the point where there is absolutely no capability of gaining obscene advantages through breaking ToS rules.

[Justuas]

Now its gone from crazy, to just laughable.

https://i.imgur.com/ol4DSod.gif

You think they're serious?

[Sirmarki]

You think they're serious?

I believe they actually are.

[Afania]

I believe they actually are.

I thought they are trolling, lol.

[Isola]

There's no such differentiation on Assura.

[Suteru]

They tried this, it was called Voidwatch and it was 100% awful.

[Isola]

Voidwatch was the best and only good event they ever made. It's the closest they ever got to actual balance.

[Justuas]

Voidwatch was the best and only good event they ever made. It's the closest they ever got to actual balance.

You're gonna be happy then if they're going to release voidwatch 2.0. I've read rumours.

[Isola]

I would, but they'll screw it up. And there aren't enough players left to do it well. And Assuran shout is literal cancer.

[chiefhunglo]

Look like it or not their are people that just want to get the gear and then enjoy the game i'm sure you and people like you don't believe it but it's true hell even if I manage to get all the gear and that is a big if I will still stick around.

[Sirmarki]

Look like it or not their are people that just want to get the gear and then enjoy the game i'm sure you and people like you don't believe it but it's true hell even if I manage to get all the gear and that is a big if I will still stick around.

What part of the game are they enjoying, when they aren't even participating in battles (with LS members/friends) that make the game enjoyable?

Instead paying a stranger, and standing there, to obtain said gear.

PS: Are you able to use full stops? That was a painful read.

[chiefhunglo]

Your exaggerating not everyone is paying for mercs.

[Sirmarki]

Your exaggerating not everyone is paying for mercs.

I'm going to assume that you are replying to me.

Can you point out to me where I said "Everyone is paying for mercs"?

[chiefhunglo]

If everyone's not buying mercs how are they a threat to the game?

[Isola]

That's already been answered.

[elqplau]

I would be considered a merc.I have been playing for a great deal of time.I stopped going in main parties long ago.if I see a shout for help on any nm that I kno I can help with or mats that I have because all I do is farm... I provide them and either ah cost whatever the person can afford or free if they b a newb .I have given away Millon's in gil to other players in the long time.e I've been playing.back when choco rentals could go as high 15 k and zone was in the city.not just a new area.so I am a merch

[Isola]

Merc being a blanket term here, not all bad. It's the garbage that overcharge and take advantage of new players that need to be removed.

Mercenary work isn't all taking advantage of new people who don't know better, but they're the ones that are a real problem.

[Xilk]

I've been playing.back when choco rentals could go as high 15 k and zone was in the city.not just a new area.so I am a merch

Well back in my day, we didn't rent chocobos! you wanted a chocobo, you go into the wilds and wrangle them yerself~!