A Ninja without Throwing... [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Akujima

04-15-2011, 07:41 AM

So, You think Nerfing Dual Wield and NIN as a job is an acceptable Solution to the game just so you RP like a Real ninja and Toss shurikens?

Whats wrong with RP'ing in an RPG? Still waiting for a valid answer to that.
And you seem to think I'm saying to nerf dual wield sooo bad that it's pointless to melee anymore. Which is not my intention at all.

Also, In order to make "backing off" = "using Shuriken", You'd also have to adjust the Sweet spot of Throwing Items, Which happen to be Melee Range. meaning if you're backing off Your Shuriken Damage will go to Sh*t Quick :|

I know this, thats why I'm voting for an improvement to the throwing system.

And then again the final extremist answer in saying that RNG is going to be obsolete if NIN gets ranged attacks. It's just another example of favoritism to who can do the biggest, better, fastest amount of damage.

...Smash that mob, SMASH that mob dead! YEA! Woooooowooooo. Dude did you see that?! I parse'd that $#!%, I got 10,500 and that gimp warrior only got 9200 yo!... yo dog this $#% is tight. All I had to do was stand in 1 spot, but that warrior was struggling yo!....

Totally stripping the RP out of RPG, and just pushing FFXI on a downward slope into some sort of competitive style game, that just resembles modern first person shooters.

Done.

Karbuncle

04-15-2011, 08:19 AM

Okay, I'm trying my best to explain to you that the idea of making Throwing Viable just isn't sensible inside FFXI. also did you just happen to overlook the part where i said "its not that people wouldn't like throwing on NIN, Its just that making it useful would require unrealistic buffs"

Its just not possible without Nerfing, or buffing Throwing to the point it would outshine RNG (due to NINs naturally high DPS, the amount of DMG/Delay required on a shuriken would have to outweigh the Damage lost during the throwing animaiton and delay after throwing before an attack round can take place)

Whats wrong with RP'ing in an RPG? Still waiting for a valid answer to that.
And you seem to think I'm saying to nerf dual wield sooo bad that it's pointless to melee anymore. Which is not my intention at all.

There is nothing wrong with RP'ing in an RPG, that isn't a problem, Its the fact not everyone wants to RP, You're idea would be "Nerf Ninja back to 2005 so i can RP with my Shuriken" (Speaking on your "We should nerf Dual wield" bit on your second post) which is not the solution. Its never a solution to NERF an aspect of a job just to enjoy the other. Nothing is stopping you from stocking up on shuriken and tossing them, You seem to not give a damn about what people think when it comes to different opinions than yours, so why care if they call you gimp for throwing shuriken?

I know this, thats why I'm voting for an improvement to the throwing system.

And then again the final extremist answer in saying that RNG is going to be obsolete if NIN gets ranged attacks. It's just another example of favoritism to who can do the biggest, better, fastest amount of damage.

And the Denial-ist answer is "I'm right its possible i just don't know how yet! So i'll continue to belittle anyone who objects my opinion, While offering no solutions outside nerfing!"

I'm sorry if you can't seem to understand the only way to make throwing good for NIN would be to buff it to the point it where it would not ruin the DPS of a NIN at melee range, to take it out and throw it. and the required DMG/delay/etc of that would be more powerful than what RNG has. Making RNG fall behind NIN in terms of ranged Damage wouldnt be a good idea either though, neither is Nerfing NIN.

...Smash that mob, SMASH that mob dead! YEA! Woooooowooooo. Dude did you see that?! I parse'd that $#!%, I got 10,500 and that gimp warrior only got 9200 yo!... yo dog this $#% is tight. All I had to do was stand in 1 spot, but that warrior was struggling yo!....

Unfortunately thats how this game is designed.

would you rather be flipping off the Mobs back throwing shurikens 40 feet in the air while fighting off other Elite Ninjas with your 18-wielded Katanas at the speed of light? maybe doing some backflips with Sephiroth?

Totally stripping the RP out of RPG, and just pushing FFXI on a downward slope into some sort of competitive style game, that just resembles modern first person shooters.

Done.

Again, just because it doesn't have every played out JRPG Cliche mashed into it, Doesn't mean its not an RPG. it still has the core elements of an RPG, just not the ones you want.

Really, It would be nice if NIN could get a great throwing weapon, and it could be useful and available. But I don't see it happening without literally a complete overhaul of the job, or throwing damage. And if they don't have enough time to Shorted Chat log redundancies, how would they have the time for this?

Really, Its not that i hate the idea, Its just i don't see it ever realistically happening.

Dooom

04-15-2011, 08:44 AM

***, I hit "like" instead of "reply with quote".

It's just another example of favoritism to who can do the biggest, better, fastest amount of damage.

...Smash that mob, SMASH that mob dead! YEA! Woooooowooooo. Dude did you see that?! I parse'd that $#!%, I got 10,500 and that gimp warrior only got 9200 yo!... yo dog this $#% is tight. All I had to do was stand in 1 spot, but that warrior was struggling yo!....

You're making fun of people who act like damage is everything, yet at the same time asking for an increase in the damage of the way you want to play, and a nerf for people who want to play in another way. Doesn't this strike you as hypocritical at all?

Hint: if you answered "no", you're wrong.

If you want to role-play, fine. Go throw your shuriken. Just don't expect everyone else to want to do the same, or ask that people not doing so be nerfed.

Akujima

04-15-2011, 09:01 AM

Okay...

Something, Something, Something...

Done.

So that means if a COR did more ranged dmg than a RNG, you would invite only COR's then? So that means if a WAR did more dmg than a DRK, you would invite only WAR's then? I'm tired of these replies where its just an endless struggle of opinionated posts, battling it out to see who's next idea makes it into the game.

Go ahead and bypass everything about the RP element of the Ninja Job, and just disregard any of the old timers, who've realized that the FF series is losing its integrity in the never-ending attempt, to appeal to the mass hysteria of casual gamers. "Make everything easier!" Yea, that's the solution right?

But, wait. What about hard earned, thoughtful "chess-like" in depth battle tactics, where we can feel a sense of accomplishment and teamwork at the end of all our fun adventures?

No, no, no! That's not easy enough!

Rather let's just continue the progression of WS Dmg+ merits for NIN, Katana skill A+ and Dual Wield+25, so that our fellow super-hero's can swing their arms so fast they look like a hummingbird on cocaine.

BOOM! Yea man, I freaken did 5000 with a Blade: Hi !!! Damn I feel special and unique now, and everyone else envies me.

Anyways, you get the picture. I simply offer an idea to improve upon an RP element, rather than push it aside, just so that all these number crunchers can continue to measure the size of each others Johnsons.

Anyways, whatever SE does is ultimately up to them.

Karbuncle

04-15-2011, 09:03 AM

And I'm the Extremist. I wasn't attempting to make this a "YOUR DUMB" "NO YOUR DUMB" Argument.

Afrohatch

04-15-2011, 09:09 AM

Ninjas are supposed to be silent too, you're not making a good example for other RP'ing ninjas

Akujima

04-15-2011, 09:11 AM

And I'm the Extremist.

Really I tried to explain it nicely, even added a joke, In my first post, And you went full-salvo defensive demeaning Sarcasm mode on me.

oh cmon, I'm not attacking you personally...

Karbuncle

04-15-2011, 09:15 AM

oh cmon, I'm not attacking you personally...

All right then.

Akujima

04-15-2011, 09:16 AM

You're making fun of people who act like damage is everything, yet at the same time asking for an increase in the damage of the way you want to play, and a nerf for people who want to play in another way. Doesn't this strike you as hypocritical at all?

Hint: if you answered "no", you're wrong.

Actually I was opting for an increase in RP element.

But it seems my strong opinion offends people, so I'm stopping for now.

Kensagaku

04-15-2011, 09:28 AM

oh cmon, I'm not attacking you personally...

Ya sorta are, you went batshit on Carb after she gave a clear and well-planned post that you don't really deserve with the aggressive attitude you're showing here. I'm all for improving on a job I love in a meaningful manner, but you certainly are taking zealot to a whole new level with the way you're overreacting. Take a breath, bud.

Anyway, retaliation aside, let me answer your actual concern. Carb had the points right; it's hard to justify shuriken for a number of reasons. But here's two big ones:

1) Shuriken take time to take out and throw. Have you seen the duration of the ranged attack animation? In that time, a well-geared NIN can do 2-3 attack rounds, inflicting at least double the damage that one shuriken could have, if not more. Shuriken decrease a NIN's overall DPS, doing half the damage (this is an estimate) in the same amount of time. This makes it a bit unfeasible for NIN, whose main sources of enmity and damage are in their damage over time.

2) Shuriken are few and far between, or in other words expensive or a pain to get. Normal shuriken, the NQ ones that are rather weak, cost 4,257-18,216 a STACK, depending on your fame. That's the weakest kind. Our most damaging one, the Koga Shuriken, comes in single units that you get from quests you can only do once a real-life day. The next best, Fuma Shuriken, cost nearly 58k EACH. Crafted ones are just as painful to get as well, and crafters aren't likely to make them unless you drag them around to give them the materials. They're also not very good. So shuriken are a pain to acquire.

See why it's so hard to implement? If you want to go get the money and buy shuriken, or go and get someone to craft them for you, then start throwing them. There's no one stopping you from doing so; if you feel the need to throw, then throw! But throwing a hissy fit just because others see a better potential use for the job is not the way to go. Shuriken were good back in earlier levels, where their DPS made them worth throwing, especially for holding hate, but as level increases, their utility decreases.

Try and be nice to one of the few optimistic posters here, too. Too many of us are already jaded without adding Krabknuckle to the list. D:

Karbuncle

04-15-2011, 09:30 AM

Actually I was opting for an increase in RP element.

But it seems my strong opinion offends people, so I'm stopping for now.

Its really not that its offended, Its just that you gave the feeling of "nerf it so i can shuriken". If that wasn't your intent you just need to explain it better.

I did mention I wouldn't hate the idea of Using Shuriken, When i was leveling NIN i always wanted too but was too poor. I only mean to portray that the time that it seems unlikely that, If SE cant even fix Text-Menus to not be so drawn-out, They'd ever make a fix like this :|

Plus i feel once SE was like "We cant do Throwing WS" they gave up on NIN >.>

Edit: Gave up on NIN's "Throwing".

Akujima

04-15-2011, 09:44 AM

There isn't really a need for throwing WS. Just a decrease in the ingredients for crafting or cheaper shuriken, the improvement of Sange so that it doesn't hurt so much with losing shadows and whatnot. And possibly a RATK+ ability for Nin or something, or something along those lines.

So great, I cant offer up a creative Idea that would make Throwing "uber". But why does something have to be "uber" to be fun? Ranged attack is very situational I'll admit, but it would still be nice to see Ninja have access to it whenever those situations come up.

wish12oz

04-15-2011, 11:02 AM

QUICK! Make a new thread to disscuss the same thing you're trolling in 3 others!

Akujima

04-15-2011, 11:52 AM

QUICK! Make a new thread to disscuss the same thing you're trolling in 3 others!

It's pretty much pointless anyways, because everyone just focuses on the negative aspects of what everyone else posts. Rarely is there ever a consensus on anything positive.

All I got was continued debates on how Throwing wouldn't work, as opposed to how it might be implemented as a secondary dmg option.

So there we have it, just hop on the negative pessimistic bandwagon, remove this, remove that, etc, etc. I said the word "nerf" once, and I get wailed on, while my other healthy points are just overlooked and dismissed completely.

Greatguardian

04-15-2011, 01:48 PM

Seeing as the same *** conversation is going on in three threads, I'll just reply to this one.

Throwing will always be worse than meleeing due to the way Haste works. Period.

Throwing Weaponskills are impossible. SE announced this years ago. The game does not function in such a way that they could make Throwing weapons have weaponskills.

There are no situations in FFXI as it is right now where pretending to be Naruto is better than swinging a katana. RP all you want with your kage bunshin no jutsu. Believe it. No one's stopping you. But it doesn't make you a good Ninja. Nor is it a valid excuse for wasting everyone's time while you take an hour to kill Briareus.

It's your right to play that way. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

CebPtolemy

04-15-2011, 02:13 PM

Wait what? Was the rl card really just played?

Akujima

04-15-2011, 02:19 PM

Wait what? Was the rl card really just played?

Nope, because I don't know that person in RL. But he called me a Gimp so its fair game.

BTW, I just hear a re-iteration of the problem.

What's the solution to all these anti-throwing skill activists then? Add more dual wield? more WS dmg? what?

Afrohatch

04-15-2011, 02:32 PM

I have never seen someone against doing more damage lol, in a time when ninja is finally relevant ;x

Greatguardian

04-15-2011, 02:35 PM

Akujima

04-15-2011, 02:50 PM

ITT: Ninja needs fixing. Just LoL.

Shuriken suck. Shuriken will always suck, there is no way to fix that. They will never have WS because the game cannot implement Throwing WS. They will never outdamage Katanas because they will never be able to take advantage of Dual Wield's delay reduction, or Gear haste, or Magic haste, or JA haste. They were viable at low levels solely because of the scarcity of these things.

RP all you want; that doesn't make you a good FFXI Ninja. That makes you a good (or just persistent) RP. Believe it.

Very nice derail attempt, but again it's just a reiteration of the problem... lol

But I guess it's alright that you can insult someone for wanting to have an authentic Ninja element in the game. Meanwhile it's not cheesy or nothin' that your character looks like a penguin trying to fly. But, its cool right? As long as you get the most important thing out of it: Your numbers are higher than the other guy's

Tired of this stock market mentality.

CebPtolemy

04-15-2011, 03:33 PM

Assuming we're not actually talking about Rp Naruto fanboys wanting throwing viable so they can now fap at how much more like him they now look...

I really don't understand this "It's your right to play the game your way" mentality that seems to be a blight upon these forums. You do understand that
Your numbers are higher than the other guy's[/I] relates to the amount of damage you're doing to your target yes? So whats so hard to understand that if your numbers are less than others your contributing less to killing your target than they are? Hence your are being less useful equal to the amount of damage other put out more than you. But hey, it doesn't matter if you look the most aesthetically pleasing right?

We've had a haste thread, it's been explained that throwing will always put out less damage than meleeing thanks to haste. So in a straight dps scenario you will just be less useful overall. And if you choose to keep wanting this over an option you have to put out more damage then yes, sir you are gimp.

This goes for all of you who expect everyone to "Respect the way you play". IT IS NOT AN EXCUSE FOR BEING BAD, STOP USING IT AS SUCH. Can't you people see you're a plague? Please please please just do what you always used to do in the past and crawl back to allah where you belong while the people who genuinely want to play to the best of their ability and get enjoyment from that stay here? Because once all of you are gone i genuinely think the people left could come up with semi decent ideas to be implemented.

Akujima

04-15-2011, 04:23 PM

So why don't you get rid of "Steal" on THF? Cuz it kinda sucks and just wastes an attack round.

CebPtolemy

04-15-2011, 04:24 PM

Stealing buffs kinda sucks wut?

Akujima

04-15-2011, 04:34 PM

Because once all of you are gone i genuinely think the people left could come up with semi decent ideas to be implemented.

Chess

An intelligent game of strategic thought.

Smashing a watermelon with a stick

The route modern video games are going.

CebPtolemy

04-15-2011, 04:42 PM

I fail to see what the point in that post is but if you stood away from that watermelon and proceeded to throw said stick at it, i would again call you gimp.

Nikia

04-15-2011, 04:47 PM

Qirmiz Tathlum
[Ammo] All Races
Attack +3 Increases critical hit damage
Lv. 83 THF / NIN / DNC
■Critical Hit Damage +5%

Why would I get rid of this?????

You want throwing then make it an auto attack similar to MNK's kick attacks. Use shuriken like ninja tools or cor cards. let them be expended. Based on the shuriken stats that could influence dmg or have the damage tied in some way to your main hand weapon.

Personally I refuse to get rid of Qirmiz Tathlum or Ungur when I need that evasion.

Kazen

04-15-2011, 05:07 PM

I'm going to have to agree with Greatguardian here, gimp is gimp. Throwing was great pre 50 before you could have access to all of the dual wield bonuses and haste we have available at 90. No one is stopping you from being an inferior throwing ninja, after all it is your $12.95; it is unfair however for you to want the rest of the server to conform to your misguided play style.

It really won't matter what SE adds because it's extremely unlikely that throwing will ever be able to win out against haste and delay reduction. You can call FFXI a strategic game all you want but in reality FFXI is a game about numbers. Very little real "strategy" is needed to accomplish anything in this game.

P.S: Before you pull another RL card and try to call me fat as well I'll have you know I'm currently eating potato chips... however, I also had a full physical last week and my BMI is 20.3.

Fiarlia

04-15-2011, 05:26 PM

Really? We've got someone arguing that doing good damage is stupid and pointless?

I mean, even most gimps try to say that they do "big WS's" or exaggerate how their accuracy is, or swear up and down that they attack fast enough and don't need haste, but this has got to be one of the most retarded arguments I've ever seen.

Whining and complaining that people care more about doing damage than using throwing on NIN? Fucking really? I mean, how dare someone want to try and be efficient, and have fun doing so.

wish12oz

04-15-2011, 05:32 PM

Whining and complaining that people care more about doing damage than using throwing on NIN? Fucking really? I mean, how dare someone want to try and be efficient, and have fun doing so.

THOSE DIRTY CAPITALIST NA'S ARE TO BLAME! WE SHOULD BAN THEM ALL!!
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/SSDsmall.jpg
(to bad you cant display images in these forums =[ my LS's banner would look so hot right here)

Guitarman

04-15-2011, 07:28 PM

Chess

An intelligent game of strategic thought.

Smashing a watermelon with a stick

The route modern video games are going.

chess = what intelligent players are doing; maximizing dps, staying away from throwing which was added just as an afterthought

watermelon = what you're suggesting.

Bulrogg

04-15-2011, 09:48 PM

I'm not trying to get Shurikens battles to replace melee DMG. Throwing was better at lower levels, with a few adjustments it could come back into play. Again, not trying to replace melee with shuriken battles. Throwing a star was just as good as using provoke at lower levels in terms of regaining a monsters attention, even now it still will return a mob to me that has run off.

like I said before....
Throwing is situational at best. It could be updated to make it more than that. I am for this update.

and really you guys shouldn't bicker and insult each other so much in all these threads.

Kensagaku

04-15-2011, 11:33 PM

To use your own chess metaphor:

Chess is a game of strategy, using every one of the pieces to its greatest advantage in order to win, in order to defeat the foe. Sometimes pieces must be sacrificed to set yourself up in a better position so that you may win more easily by removing obstacles in your way.

The FFXI community has chosen to sacrifice throwing in order to remove the obstacles of a lower DPS as well as cost/scarcity of shuriken, and further increase their overall damage, making themselves more efficient and setting themselves up to defeat their foes reasonably and without the risk of losing in return that slowing themselves via shuriken would bring.

In other words, you're welcome to throw your stars, even shout a good dattebayo or two if you're really feeling froggy (summon a frog too, it's ninja-esque!), but in the end, it's about the equivalent of attempting to get win a game of chess with nothing but a pawn.

You lose. Checkmate. Go smash that watermelon and pretend it's the posters here on the forums, it'll help you vent.

Edit: The tags sum this thread up soooo well.

AyinDygra

04-16-2011, 02:09 AM

I'm not one to argue, so I'll just state my observations about this dispute.

It's based on preconceptions that are not written in stone. Despite this, some people seem to think certain aspects of Throwing and the game system are unreasonable to be expected to change. The dev team in recent times have showed that they are not afraid of changing things.

Preconception number 1: Throwing has to match or exceed melee damage to be useful.

This just isn't true. Throwing stars or other throwing items could be made with special effects that make them more useful than damage. They can have effects that expand on the Ninja's current ninjutsu capability: there are many effects that could be added, such as terror, provoke, amnesia, add weakness to weapon types, etc. Also, on the topic of damage/accuracy, they can potentially add a second sweet spot to throwing in general, so they have both "melee range" and the longest ranged distance, or alter Innin/Yonin to change the Throwing sweet spot as well.

Preconception number 2: Throwing items are too expensive and always will be, even if they had/have/will have good stats.

There are many ways for SE to change this in crafting, from changing the needed ingredients to the number of items created from recipes. They could even add alternate recipes through synergy (even though I don't particularly like synergy myself.) Shuriken gained through battle rewards could drop in stacks instead of singles. And NPCs could sell affordable throwing items or materials (even though they're at absurd prices right now.)

Preconception number 3: Throwing can never have weaponskills.

While it's true that SE said it wasn't possible in the combat system at the time, there are other ways to implement this feature to accomplish the same result (or better): My throwing weaponskill solution over in the Battle Content forum. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2936-Throwing-WS?p=65365&viewfull=1#post65365)

Akujima

04-16-2011, 03:31 AM

Yea AyinDygra, you are right, but guess what?

All they care about is their preconceptions, and %#$@ anyone else who has an imagination or a positive attitude to come up with something legitimate. You can go blue in the face trying to present valid reasons, but they just wont hear you, because it comes down to one simple fact: they're right and you're wrong, no explanation needed.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 03:43 AM

To use your own chess metaphor:

Obviously you don't understand the chess metaphor at all "bro".

It takes no skill to be able to kiss @$$ (sry, maybe it takes @$$ kissing skill) to be in line for all the best gear, getting your whole LS to camp empyrean weapon NM's for you, and give you all the coins, cards, stones, jewels needed for your uber set of gear. While you stand in 1 spot, smashing 1~2 macro's in order get the highest dmg.

Even World of Warcraft had better boss mechanics, at least there were times when disengaging from the enemy was a smart thing to do, or backing up and using distance to the advantage.

But, guess what? FFXI is turning into a button mashing-fest, where everyones so happy to have +300 STR and 3000 HP. Because the bigger the better. But that's just the popular mentality, and you lack the imagination needed to even come up with creative ideas, but rather just spew the same #$@% that is already in the game.

If you STILL haven't realized, I'm talking about putting throwing back into the game that is viable.

But all you can do is gang up with everyone else slapping Naruto insults on me, because you lack individuality and can't fight your own battles.

Greatguardian

04-16-2011, 04:18 AM

You're one of the most absolutely bitter posters I've ever had the displeasure of reading on these forums.

Maybe, instead of being bitter about "ass kissers" getting tons of shit, you should be proactive, find some sane friends, and get tons of shit with them. It's really not hard if the people involved are half-bloody-decent at the game. That's what the majority of the good players in the game are doing. You know, the actual elite class. Not whoever you've been ranting about that call themselves "elite".

Useless idea is useless anyways. Throwing can never, ever be viable no matter how much they buff it because of the way Haste works in FFXI. Until Haste affects Ranged Attacks (it won't), or NIN is given an auto-throw trait like Kick Attacks (this is highly unlikely due to the fact that it could cause NINs to throw Smart Grenades, etc), Throwing will be nothing more than a toy.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 04:26 AM

You're one of the most absolutely bitter posters I've ever had the displeasure of reading on these forums.

Useless idea is useless anyways. Throwing can never, ever be viable no matter how much they buff it...

Lol, it's cool. Medicine is usually bitter.

And thank you for the hopeless insight.

Did you even read AyinDygra's post? Or were you too busy pressing the like button on your own posts?

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 04:34 AM

/sigh

This is what you've really degraded too huh.

I find myself saddened by how this thread eventually unfolded.

Greatguardian

04-16-2011, 04:43 AM

I read his post. Sorry, but I'll pass on "Stun Shuriken". How often do you see good RNGs and THFs using enfeebling Arrows/Bolts? Exactly.

As for his "Throwing weaponskills" solution, I'll take the word of people who actually coded the game over a random person's pseudo-scientific crap. "You can do A, and you can do B, so obviously you can do C which is sorta like A and B at the same time" is utter nonsense from a programming perspective.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 04:50 AM

/sigh

This is what you've really degraded too huh.

I find myself saddened by how this thread eventually unfolded.

And continue to do what the trend is:

Gang up on the person who posted the thread, offer no positive insight as to how throwing might ever be introduced back into the game, reiterate the current problem with said skill. Rinse and repeat.

What do you expect really? All most of you said was "Throwing sucks, it will never happen, you're gimp, goodbye."

But it's cool, because you can feel better by just blaming someone else, laying the fault on them so you can sleep better at night.

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 04:53 AM

You're doing all the same things you yourself condemn those around you for...

Akujima

04-16-2011, 05:00 AM

You're doing all the same things you yourself condemn those around you for...

I'm just throwing their own $#!% back in their face.

Greatguardian

04-16-2011, 05:59 AM

I'm just throwing their own $#!% back in their face.

Hammurabi was such a genius amirite.

This thread in one post:

You said: The Game needs to do A

Someone else said: The Game does not need to do A, it has always been better to do B

You said: Fuck B, real Ninjas do A and I want to role play my way.

Someone else said: Why are you doing A when it negatively impacts those around you?

You said: I like A so I'm doing A, why are you in my thread telling me why A doesn't work when the thread is about making A work?

I said: A cannot work because of the way the game is designed. It's functionally impossible to make A better than B.

You said: HEY BRO IT DOESN'T MATTER IF A IS BETTER THAN B. WHO ARE YOU TO TELL ME WHAT IS BETTER? IT IS WHAT DOES MORE BIG NUMBERS?! BIG NUMBERS ARE FOR ELITIST JERKS WHO KISS ASS FOR GEARZ.

I said: You're an idiot.

You said: NO U FATTY

I said: A will never work because X, Y, and Z. It's nice for fun when it doesn't affect anyone else, but they could never improve A enough to be worthwhile over B.

You said: This thread is not about why A will not work. Stop saying why A won't work, you are just being stupid. The idea is to make A work.

Everyone else: But A can't work. It's not how the game works. You cannot magically make A work.

You said: Shut up, stop reiterating the problem. Stop ganging up on me. I want to make A work.

Karb said: Bro you're just antagonizing them too

You said: I do what I want.

That about wraps it up. Throwing will never be good, or even passable because of how the entire freaking game works. RP all you want on your time, but don't expect not to get flak if you do it in a place or in a manner where you negatively impact other people.

AyinDygra

04-16-2011, 06:00 AM

Just to clarify:

"How often do you see good RNGs and THFs using enfeebling Arrows/Bolts?"

You are underestimating the power of some additional effects that could be added, such as Amnesia to stop the enemy from spamming special attacks near the end of its life (or to make it easier to trigger in abyssea), or provoke when the enemy is running out of melee range and you're not subbing war, or ... the sky's the limit really, just use your imagination.

Also, it wouldn't hurt for them to increase the potency of certain additional effect ammunition for other jobs either.

"You can do A, and you can do B, so obviously you can do C which is sorta like A and B at the same time" is utter nonsense from a programming perspective.

That's not "utter nonsense", especially from a programming perspective. It's acknowledging the existence of variables and combat/interface code that can use those variables. I have some programming experience, and the fact that they could introduce such features as TP needed for job abilities, job abilities inflicting a status that allows the triggering of weaponskills and job abilities needing ammo or a ranged weapon, shows that the means to keep track of these variables exist and they "could" potentially add my proposed Job Ability that produces a "Throwing Weaponskill"-like result (in all the areas that matter).

In addition, these combat features came out after the Dev Team said they couldn't add throwing weaponskills so very long ago, so there is potential for them to go back and review this possibility with the functionality now added by these new features.

Darwena

04-16-2011, 06:13 AM

Greatguardian

04-16-2011, 06:13 AM

If the first time they give Players access to the Amnesia debuff is via a Shuriken, there will be blood. Blood.

That said, no. Steps and Finishing moves are combat elements that were built from the ground up to be independent of previously existing elements. Ranged weapons and their functions have a code base that has existed since the beginning of the game.

A random example as to why they potentially could not make Throwing WS work would have to do with the fact that there isn't a single Ranged WS that works without a Ranged equipment component. All throwing items use the Ammo slot, leaving the Ranged slot open. If, upon their original coding of the game's Ranged combat mechanics, they required a call to the Ranged equipment slot at all in the process of firing a Ranged Weaponskill, it would be extremely difficult to alter the game's base code in such a way that would allow Throwing items to have a WS and would not break something in the existing Ranged WS code (Can you imagine trying to ask the Dev team to allow you to Raging Rush with only a Grip, and no Axe? Raging Grip!). Keep in mind Ranged combat mechanics are probably at least a thousand lines of code as an absolute minimum. "Find and Replace" doesn't really work out at that sort of scale.

Steps, Angons, and Waltzes also do not behave anywhere near the way Weaponskills do. Waltzes are just Chakra with a TP requirement. Angons don't have damage ratings, WSC, pDif, or accuracy, they're just Trump Cards that you equip. You're looking at these things like classes that you can just mush together whenever you want, when in reality they're significantly more complex and independent. Leaving code open to being mushed like that is horrible practice in a game this size; you would break a dozen things every single update that way (inb4 "but they already do").

Akujima

04-16-2011, 06:23 AM

This thread in one post:

Well I congratulate you on your mathematical algebraic biased summary of this entire thread. You seem to be forgetting other people who might actually be FOR throwing, bringing back the nostalgia that was once in the Final Fantasy series. But you wouldn't care about such nonsense now would you?

As far as making something that would work, to please so called "fanboys" or "RP'ers who lack skill" which is some stereotypical hogwash, your best excuse is "It's too hard, so just %@#! it." Alright then continue to be lazy and unimaginative.

Not every piece in chess moves like a pawn, it's actually a colorful and thoughtful game where each piece is unique and has endless possibilities and outcomes. You seem to want to diminish this factor in favor of using less, doing less, being less, less, less, less.

Well great, once you can graduate from checkers, I'll be over playing chess with other thoughtful people, discussing complex battle tactics, while you peer over from your duo-tone world of black and white. Just don't be upset when you come over to have a game with me, because I have all my angles covered.

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 06:28 AM

I like throwing shuriken on stuff... Should I quit ffxi asap?
I like some RPG in a MMORPG game... Should i quit ffxi asap?
I like to play a job, my way... Should I quit ffxi asap?
I like to read CS in ffxi, doing quest for the story and the fun of doing them not just for the silly reward they can offer... Should I quit ffxi asap?

If you answer "yes" on most question, then I'm sorry for you guys, but I will continue to play ffxi and I don't f...in care about being an elite if that mean I can't be myself and have "fun" on a "game" I "play" to pass good time with friends.

About OP, I'm agree that Shuriken could be improved a little. At least, having some 99 stack than can be higher then lv48 and decntly obtainable (or w/e it spell). Throwing skill was some good kick ass at 75, now everyone seem to forget how cool its was to deal massive DMG from those lil spiky stars...

Admitedly I don't know much after Page 2, but this Thread began with "Ninja Should get a buff to throwing" in which i replied "The amount of time/effort required to buff Throwing would be impossible. You would either need to nerf Ninja, Or buff throwing to the point NIN would be a better Ranged attacker than RNG"

To which i got something a long the lines of "BRRHRLJGLHRLBBRLBRLUELITISTS"

To which i said "It just wont happen, But that doesn't mean you can't RP, Go throw Shurikens. You don't seem to mind others opinions on your damage"

To which the thread continued to degrade.

Point Being, This thread could have ended on page 1 with "Ninja will likely never get a throwing buff, But it doesn't mean you can't throw if you want too"

It didnt, And its not entirely the fault of those opposing the OP. Its a joint failure. Everyones to blame, and no ones immune to it.

At the very least I told him to play how he wants, but don't expect a Buff to Throwing, because it wont come.

Greatguardian

04-16-2011, 06:41 AM

At the very least I told him to play how he wants, but don't expect a Buff to Throwing, because it wont come.

This is pretty much what I've ended my past few posts with. Shit, it's not a crime to go and goof off on your own time. It's just annoying as shit to force other people to deal with your goofing off in a group scenario. Negatively impacting other people with RP shuriken bullshit is the only problem I've ever had with it.

Saying the game can't buff Shuriken enough to make them worth a damn is not me being "Anti-Shuriken". It's me being realistic and knowing how the game functions.

Bulrogg

04-16-2011, 06:50 AM

there isn't a single Ranged WS that works without a Ranged equipment component.

Mistral Axe anyone... Would that be a Boomeraxe?

But I guess Mistal Axe would be the exception?

Akujima

04-16-2011, 06:51 AM

This is pretty much what I've ended my past few posts with....

Saying the game can't buff Shuriken enough to make them worth a damn is not me being "Anti-Shuriken". It's me being realistic and knowing how the game functions.

Just because you're too lazy to make the changes, that has nothing to do with the developers who might actually care about nostalgia. And just because the NIN you've encountered have their throwing skill below 3 digits, doesn't mean that Sange does completely terrible damage that it wastes your valuable playtime.

Would it hurt you to think outside the box for once?

Khajit

04-16-2011, 07:03 AM

Thinking outside the box only works when the box doesn't represent things that are actually possible to do in any way shape or form.

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 07:49 AM

Mistral Axe anyone... Would that be a Boomeraxe?

But I guess Mistal Axe would be the exception?

Gust Slash, Cyclone, and Bora Axe are also Ranged.

Everyone makes mistakes though :x, his point still stands. SE themselves said its impossible for them to make Throwing Weaponskills due to the nature of throwing Weapons (boomerangs, Darts, main/Sub, infinite/Ammo'd), etc. That the game wouldn't recognize the two as seperate. So the game couldn't tell the difference between Shuriken or a Boomerang.

Something like that, Its been a long time, Either way SE said at the least Ranged WS are out of the question, it could have been excuses but we don't know.

Really, I've even considered this, I have brainstormed, But there is no logical way to make Throwing Viable without giving NIN a supply of throwing items with the DMG of Sky-winds and about 50 Delay in mass supply that stack to 99. Even that is still stretching it in terms of being useful. I tried to think of any other way that did not involve a nerf of the job and i cannot simply think of a way to make it work. Throwing is Limited. as is ranged as a whole. Maybe
SE can just make a WS that throws the katana like a Kunai "bora axe' Style. there we go, NIN's throwing Kunai.

Greatguardian

04-16-2011, 08:50 AM

@Bul, ITT: "Ranged Attacks call a Ranged equipment function" = "Any attack with a range greater than 6.0' requires a Ranged weapon"

Melee WS with greater than 6.0' range are still Melee WS using Melee functions with a range exception. You don't use Ranged Attack for Mistral Axe, do you? No. Ranged attacks and Melee attacks have been completely separate beasts since 2002.

That said, I really really really don't know how "THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE AT ALL UNLESS THEY MAKE A COMPLETELY NEW GAME" comes off as "I THINK THE DEVELOPERS ARE TOO LAZY TO DO IT". Christ. They're nowhere near the same thing. The Developers are the ones who said Throwing WS is impossible. The game itself precludes Throwing for TP ever being a decent source of damage. They can't just "Get rid of Haste". Sorry. That's a pipe dream.

@Karbuncle, the only thing I could possibly think of was making a new Shuriken synth with high damage, low delay, and expensive but abundant mats like something in the high-end Smithing or Goldsmithing line (Ingots?). Then, giving NIN a JA which can be potentially fulltimed that acts like Velocity Shot; Increasing melee attack Delay (WITHOUT touching Melee Attack, or possibly Acc as well if made more important later) while allowing the NIN to throw 3 Shuriken at once every throw. The reason Melee Attack/Acc need to stay untouched is the fact that you *WILL* be using Blade: Jin/Blade: Hi despite TP'ing with Shurikens. You're also going to be in Melee attack range fulltime anyways. Using Shuriken from greater than 6.0' away is just dumb, your Ranged Attack/Acc get shot.

Yeah, it's an expensive as shit solution, but Ranged DD has always been expensive. Using consumables for damage = paying out the nose. The only issue with Oberon's Bullets and such for COR at the moment is the completely screwed materials supply.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 09:43 AM

So I decided to test my own things out and walk the walk, instead of talking the talk all the time.

For all you number crunchers out there.
Try not to get a boner, because you finally get to see a chart.

THROWING SKILL: 359

FOOD: SQUID SUSHI
ATMA'S: STOUT ARM, GNARLED HORN, RAZED RUINS

STATS

Elvaan 90 NIN/45 WAR

STR 94+106
DEX 80+119
VIT 83+60
AGI 77+146
INT 68+60
MND 70+59
CHR 70+60

ATK: 691 (Berserk ON)

GEAR

MAIN: SEKKA+2 (AGI)
SUB: SEKKA+2 (AGI)
AMMO: MANJI SHURIKEN
HEAD: SAIKA HACHIMAKI
NECK: ARCTIER'S TORQUE
L.EAR: VISION EARRING
R.EAR: SUPPANOMIMI
BODY: WAR SHINOBI GI
HANDS: NINJA TEKKO+1
L.RING: CROSSBOWMAN'S RING
R.RING: BEHEMOTH RING+1
BACK: AMEMET MANTLE+1
WAIST: HURLING BELT
LEGS: NINJA HAKAMA
FEET: MISSLE BOOTS

AREA: ABYSS-GRAUB

MOB: STYGAN DJINN (Decent Challange)

THROWS:

#1 Crit 288
#2 Crit 299
#3 Strikes True 182
#4 Crit 295
#5 Crit 292

SANGE: 1490 (4 shadows) All 5 hits landed

AREA: ABYSS-ULEG

MOB: SIERRA TIGER (Incredibly Tough)

THROWS:

#1 Crit 214
#2 Strikes True 131
#3 Crit 221
#4 Crit 223
#5 Crit 202

SANGE: 830 (4 shadows) All 5 hits landed

AREA: ABYSS-ALTEP

MOB: SAND SWEEPER (Tough)

THROWS:

#1 Crit 249
#2 Crit 256
#3 Crit 260
#4 Crit 260
#5 Crit 244

SANGE: 664 (4 shadows) 4 hits landed

SPECIAL: SWIFTSHOT TONIC

AREA: ABYSS-GRAUB

MOB: GOBLIN MEATGRINDER (EASY PREY)

THROWS:

#1 539 -----> Crit 331 + Strikes True 208
#2 664 -----> 2X Crit 332 + 332
#3 660 -----> 2X Crit 325 + 335
#4 522 -----> Crit 318 + Strikes True 204
#5 402 -----> 2X Strikes True 202 + 200

So basically it looks like Sange throws dont factor in crits, because you'll notice the damage difference between 5 regular throws and Sange (Being 5 hits as 1 Throw). Keep in mind that I'm using Lv48 Shuriken, But still 1 Throw doesn't seem to bad for damage, even with such low level shuriken.

Get Sange to factor in critical damage, get in higher level shuriken, so that every once in awhile we can have a spike damage from Sange, and change Sange to not have you lose shadows, so that it doesn't annoy people.

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 10:05 AM

I'm gonna spell this out for you, try not to get lost, read it til you get it.
Manji Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Argue against me, go ahead.

Greatguardian

04-16-2011, 10:06 AM

Number crunchers? Boner? Anecdotal data?

That's not how it works, bro. Any number cruncher worth half a salt can already determine your minimum, maximum, and average damage against any given target with Shuriken. More importantly, they can determine your damage over time. You're really not presenting anything we don't already know. Shuriken are still crap damage.

Edit: Everything Wish12oz said +1

Akujima

04-16-2011, 10:38 AM

I'm done with negative pessimistic people who just wanna run $#!% their own way and PI$$ on everyone else who presents a creative argument.

Have fun in your pseudo-FF world where you can't do anything other than calculate the next equation, and flash your new studs so that the "lesser folk" can spam /check you, after you come back from shopping at the "Abyssea Mall". Just let logistics run your entire life, and to hell with creativity, personality and character, because they're dead in such a society. Live in your suburbs where every building looks the same, and every person has the same kind of car, every wardrobe is shaded pastel that camouflages itself into it's surroundings, every song on the radio is bland, played out and pretty much sounds the same, with no innovation or emotion whatsoever.

Because that is certainly the way I forsee FFXI slowly becoming..

I'll go back to the underground, where the minority still has integrity, morals and dignity. The biggest mistake I made was expecting any of you to believe in some kind of change, but rather you hold to the current system that's already in place, defending it whole heartedly. So why change the game at all? What's the point in even having these forums, if people can't even speak their minds on new creative idea's that hold true to Final Fantasy nostalgia? No, now it's time to gang up against the one who stands out amongst the crowd, because god forbid, that anyone be different.

Now I await the final drone responses, riddled with predictability and cliched insults.

I'm out.

Kuishen

04-16-2011, 10:38 AM

Obviously you don't understand the chess metaphor at all "bro".

It takes no skill to be able to kiss @$$ (sry, maybe it takes @$$ kissing skill) to be in line for all the best gear, getting your whole LS to camp empyrean weapon NM's for you, and give you all the coins, cards, stones, jewels needed for your uber set of gear. While you stand in 1 spot, smashing 1~2 macro's in order get the highest dmg.

Even World of Warcraft had better boss mechanics, at least there were times when disengaging from the enemy was a smart thing to do, or backing up and using distance to the advantage.

But, guess what? FFXI is turning into a button mashing-fest, where everyones so happy to have +300 STR and 3000 HP. Because the bigger the better. But that's just the popular mentality, and you lack the imagination needed to even come up with creative ideas, but rather just spew the same #$@% that is already in the game.

If you STILL haven't realized, I'm talking about putting throwing back into the game that is viable.

But all you can do is gang up with everyone else slapping Naruto insults on me, because you lack individuality and can't fight your own battles.

Oh my GOD you are stupid. Seriously. Do you read your posts before you push the reply button? You're dodging everybody's counter-arguments and insulting both the game and anybody who doesn't agree with you. Shut up and go home, you've lost any credibility, if you even had any to begin with.

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 10:41 AM

Akuji, Call this whatever you want, Cliche or not.

But have you presented even 1 coherent, realistic idea to improving throwing, that doesn't require a nerf to Dual Wield or Haste?

I'm genuinely Curious if even you yourself can think of any single way to improve throwing that doesn't involve a nerf in some way.

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 10:46 AM

Lots of stuff that doesn't pertain to my response.

Why don't you respond to me?
I posted exactly why throwing does not work.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 10:53 AM

Why don't you respond to me?
I posted exactly why throwing does not work.

Ok, do that exact same equation, but now with Sange, and not just 1 regular throw. do it without low level shuriken. Factor in that you're not always standing in 1 spot, or that you might have to run out of range because a mob is doing some nasty AoE's that you would probably die from, in the meantime you could be doing ranged attack damage.

Kazen

04-16-2011, 10:55 AM

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 10:59 AM

Ok, do that exact same equation, but now with Sange, and not just 1 regular throw with low level shuriken.

I already explained why sange doesn't work in another thread, but it's the same thing, you lose between 4 and 8 attack rounds using sange and recasting utsu ni.

4-8 rounds is 12->24 attacks worth of damage and tp gain. Sange doesn't come close to this, if you can prove it does, go for it. I just said how much it needs to do to keep up, if you can prove it can do this much, you can prove it can be useful.

I also didn't give exact damage numbers, I only gave delays, and # of attacks, and amount of TP.
If your throwing damage can exceed 6 melee attacks worth of damage and tp gain, then throwing can be better. It just doesn't do that much, unless you're incredibly gimp, or have super duper amazing effing shurikens, like 500+ base damage.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 11:02 AM

He already did that, did you read anything he posted at all?

The level of the shuriken and sange does not matter. He could use lvl 48 katanas to make the equation more "equal" and the result would still be greatly in favor of the katanas.

Sure, but the point you fail to see is that there IS no high level shuriken.

Ah hell, why am I still doing this, most of don't bother to open their mind to new idea's anyways lol... It's like one of those painters who just throw paint blotches and scribble on a canvass, calling it "creative".

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 11:05 AM

Sure, but the point you fail to see is that there IS no low level shuriken.

Ah hell, why am I still doing this, most of don't bother to open their mind to new idea's anyways lol... It's like one of those painters who just throw paint blotches and scribble on a canvass, calling it "creative".

have you presented even 1 coherent, realistic idea to improving throwing, that doesn't require a nerf to Dual Wield or Haste?

If you're So Creative and can think outside of the box, answer me that question please.

Cause I've honestly sat down and tried to think of Realistic ways to Adjust Throwing as an Ability for Ninja and nothing i have come up with is anything short of Breaking the game.

I have Tried and its just the way FFXI works would make it completely unrealistic.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 11:06 AM

I already explained why sange doesn't work in another thread, but it's the same thing, you lose between 4 and 8 attack rounds using sange and recasting utsu ni.

4-8 rounds is 12->24 attacks worth of damage and tp gain. Sange doesn't come close to this, if you can prove it does, go for it. I just said how much it needs to do to keep up, if you can prove it can do this much, you can prove it can be useful.

I also didn't give exact damage numbers, I only gave delays, and # of attacks, and amount of TP.
If your throwing damage can exceed 6 melee attacks worth of damage and tp gain, then throwing can be better. It just doesn't do that much, unless you're incredibly gimp, or have super duper amazing effing shurikens, like 500+ base damage.

All I get from this post is that you're happy with the way the game currently is, so why the hell are you even on these forums making suggestions, unless you're protesting creativity?

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 11:07 AM

Ah hell, why am I still doing this, most of don't bother to open their mind to new idea's anyways lol... It's like one of those painters who just throw paint blotches and scribble on a canvass, calling it "creative".

Open their minds to other things?
It's simple math that throwing is inferior, why you cannot figure this out, I will never understand. You're basically trying to argue that 3 is bigger then 8.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 11:10 AM

If you're So Creative and can think outside of the box, answer me that question please.

Cause I've honestly sat down and tried to think of Realistic ways to Adjust Throwing as an Ability for Ninja and nothing i have come up with is anything short of Breaking the game.

I have Tried and its just the way FFXI works would make it completely unrealistic.

Give NIN a ranged attack/accuracy boost
Make Sange just some sort of "Barrage" Ability without having you lose shadows
Increase the damage slightly on shuriken/get in higher level shuriken with higher damage

There you go, every 5 mins or so, you have a burst ranged throw that uses 5 shuriken.

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 11:16 AM

All I get from this post is that you're happy with the way the game currently is, so why the hell are you even on these forums making suggestions, unless you're protesting creativity?

I like the way the job works, and want to keep it the way it works, but I want ninja to do more melee damage, because it cannot keep up with with warrior. Very good Ukon warrior's are about 10% damage above me, I know ninja could make up this differance with new JAs and JTs, but not with BS stuff like throwing, so I put down the bad ideas and explain why stuff like throwing is dumb, to prevent SE from thinking it's a good idea. Like when they added yonin and innin, and suddenly thought ninja was all fixed and super good, when in reality those buffs were complete crap.

Ninja has been my favorite job since I first leveled it in 2004, all the nerfs to ninja and upgrades to every other job made it crap after awhile. Abyssea made it good again, because ninja was only good for weak mobs, and everything has now been weak for awhile. Once we leave abyssea if stuff is suddenly hard again, ninja will go back to the gutter, so we need to get SE to make GOOD improvements, not BS like adding new shurikens that can NEVER keep up.

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 11:21 AM

Give NIN a ranged attack/accuracy boost
Make Sange just some sort of "Barrage" Ability without having you lose shadows
Increase the damage slightly on shuriken/get in higher level shuriken with higher damage

There you go, every 5 mins or so, you have a burst ranged throw that uses 5 shuriken.

You need the shuriken damage to spike greatly to keep up, 300+ base damage, and you need them to be super cheap and easy to make on top of what you're suggesting to make it useful. Do you really think SE will do this? I don't, and SE has basically proven threw the years they are not going to, or they would of already. Throwing is for low levels, get over it.

EDIT: they don't even let subbing ranger give access to velocity shot, that is how scared they are of ranged attacks, this is further proof SE will never do it.

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 11:23 AM

You need the shuriken damage to spike greatly to keep up, 300+ base damage, and you need them to be super cheap and easy to make on top of what you're suggesting to make it useful. Do you really think SE will do this? I don't, and SE has basically proven threw the years they are not going to, or they would of already. Throwing is for low levels, get over it.

Pun Intended :D?

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 11:24 AM

Pun Intended :D?

You no like? （´・ω・｀）

Akujima

04-16-2011, 11:27 AM

I like the way the job works, and want to keep it the way it works, but I want ninja to do more melee damage, because it cannot keep up with with warrior. Very good Ukon warrior's are about 10% damage above me, I know ninja could make up this differance with new JAs and JTs, but not with BS stuff like throwing, so I put down the bad ideas and explain why stuff like throwing is dumb, to prevent SE from thinking it's a good idea.

Please tell me which other Final Fantasy games you have played? Explain in which of those that "Throwing" was not a key feature to the Ninja Job or a Ninja-like Character?

Great you want Ninja to be "uber", but worrying about 10% less damage? Are people you hang around with in game calling you on it? Because if they judge you for doing 10% less damage in a video game, you need to hang out with some different people... People with decency.

10% less damage than a freaken WARRIOR no doubt, the king of melee jobs. I still don't understand how you would want to eradicate Role Playing from an RPG. But whatever I guess?...

The real problem is elitists calling out people for not being "the best" or "perfect" when they themselves can't give a definition to those things. Because there is no definition. You can do your hardest at anything, but there's always going to be someone that comes along and is "better" than you.

Next time someone calls you for doing 10% less damage, ask them to define the word "Perfection".

Kuishen

04-16-2011, 11:36 AM

The real problem is elitists calling out people for not being "the best" or "perfect" when they themselves can't give a definition to those things. Because there is no definition. You can do your hardest at anything, but there's always going to be someone that comes along and is "better" than you.

Actually eventually you can hit perfect in this game because it is finite, unlike rl where everybody is imperfect, in this game once you obtain all the gear and skills that could possibly pertain to a job then you are perfect. Granted the game is designed to make that take a very long time but it's still possible.

So no, in this game, when dealing with a single job there won't always be somebody better than you. The same level as you sure, but not better.

Part of the definition is knowing what not to do because it isn't efficient, and throwing isn't efficient. Therefore if you're using throwing you are not being "the best". End of story. Your arguments about morals and all that other bullshit do not apply to a game that deals with absolute numbers. If you are doing less damage than you could be doing, then you are being inefficient and wasting everybody's time during an event. There's no room for morals in that formula.

Again, calling you out on the fact that you complained about casuals yet you are the textbook definition of one. Saying this in a nicer way so as to not get my post edited. Please kindly leave; while there is room in this game for casuals, there isn't room for you spewing your white-knight bullshit on a useless outdated ability that nobody cares about anymore, except for you. It can't possibly be fixed because of in-game limitations and balance issues, therefore, leave it alone.

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 11:41 AM

Please tell me which other Final Fantasy games you have played? Explain in which of those that "Throwing" was not a key feature to the Ninja Job or a Ninja-like Character?
Not every FF game has been exactly the same, quit thinking it has been, basic elements are there for jobs, and thats it. Ninja still has throwing in this game, its just not good once you get haste gear. You need to figure this out and stop thinking throwing is all a ninja should be doing.

Great you want Ninja to be "uber", but worrying about 10% less damage? Are people you hang around with in game calling you on it? Because if they judge you for doing 10% less damage in a video game, you need to hang out with some different people... People with decency.

10% less damage than a freaken WARRIOR no doubt, the king of melee jobs. I still don't understand how you would want to eradicate Role Playing from an RPG. But whatever I guess?...

The real problem is elitists calling out people for not being "the best" or "perfect" when they themselves can't give a definition to those things. Because there is no definition. You can do your hardest at anything, but there's always going to be someone that comes along and is "better" than you.

Next time someone calls you for doing 10% less damage, ask them to define the word "Perfection".

"Perfect for a job" is having everything useful the job can use. I'm 3-4 items away now for my ninja.

No one has called me out for being weaker then others, because its not that big of a difference. If you're asking if my group would bring a completely inferior job to anything though, we would not. It's a waste of time/manpower, and the person could bring something useful. I have 9 jobs leveled, guess which ones I play? Thats right, I only play the useful ones, my pld, drk, sam, and rng never see the light of day. When ninja wasn't useful as a tank anymore, I leveled pld, and I tanked on that. My idea of fun, is not bringing some gimp job and playing like an idiot, if that's your idea of fun, then I hope I never run into you in game. And maybe if you were better at ninja, and bothered to learn how the game worked instead of wishing it worked differently, you could solo your kannagi instead of pleeding with people to do it for you. I solo'd half of mine at 85, I'm sure you could do it even easier at 90.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 11:52 AM

Actually eventually you can hit perfect in this game because it is finite, unlike rl where everybody is imperfect, in this game once you obtain all the gear and skills that could possibly pertain to a job then you are perfect. Granted the game is designed to make that take a very long time but it's still possible.

So no, in this game, when dealing with a single job there won't always be somebody better than you. The same level as you sure, but not better.

Yea, exactly. Because you're both just standing in 1 spot, mashing a couple of the same macro's, in the same gear, and you both look exactly the SAME... did I say same?

Part of the definition is knowing what not to do because it isn't efficient, and throwing isn't efficient. Therefore if you're using throwing you are not being "the best". End of story.

Example: Two Ninja's, exact same gear, exact same merits, etc, etc. Fighting a magic resistant boss... The boss starts flying... One Ninja, switches to his ranged attack gear, and to shuriken, doing damage to the boss while its in flight... The other Ninja stands around waiting for the boss to land, because he just wants to melee it.

Which Ninja is doing more damage?

Your arguments about morals and all that other bullshit do not apply to a game that deals with absolute numbers.

Since when did I pay $12.95 a month to play a freaking MUD?

If you are doing less damage than you could be doing, then you are being inefficient and wasting everybody's time during an event. There's no room for morals in that formula.

Again, calling you out on the fact that you complained about casuals yet you are the textbook definition of one. Saying this in a nicer way so as to not get my post edited. Please kindly leave; while there is room in this game for casuals, there isn't room for you spewing your white-knight bullshit on useless outdated ability that nobody cares about anymore, except for you. It can't possibly be fixed because of in-game limitations and balance issues, therefore, leave it alone.

Um... Would you like me to post screens of my playtime? I bet it's even more than you. Of course this is pre-abyssea playtime. Since then, I haven't been playing because it's boring and easy, with atma's that give you stat boosts through the roof.

The biggest mistake Square-Enix ever made, was firing the guy who was the lead developer of Chains of Promathia. Done and Done.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 12:00 PM

And maybe if you were better at ninja, and bothered to learn how the game worked instead of wishing it worked differently, you could solo your kannagi instead of pleeding with people to do it for you. I solo'd half of mine at 85, I'm sure you could do it even easier at 90.

I actually don't do that. But according to your motto "faster is better", then it would help to have an LS wipe my arse, so I can get a really cooool looking weapon that I don't really give a crap about. Heck, it could be a gnarly tree branch with thorns on it, so long as it does good damage, then it will make me happy right?

Kuishen

04-16-2011, 12:06 PM

Yea, exactly. Because you're both just standing in 1 spot, mashing a couple of the same macro's, in the same gear, and you both look exactly the SAME... did I say same?

Since when did I pay $12.95 a month to play a freaking MUD?

Um... Would you like me to post screens of my playtime? I bet it's even more than you. Of course this is pre-abyssea playtime. Since then, I haven't been playing because it's boring and easy, with atma's that give you stat boosts through the roof.

The biggest mistake Square-Enix ever made, was firing the guy who was the lead developer of Chains of Promathia. Done and Done.

Because of how easy af3 is to get and seeing as how it's the best right now, yeah you're gonna look the same, later on when they add more shit for the hardcore players it won't be as bad. But yes I agree that I hate looking like the same as everybody else, but there's a reason for that, and that is because the gear is good.

Have you ever played a MUD? Because they have a lot less numbers and a lot more RPing, something you should prolly switch to if that's how you want to play.

Playtime has nothing to do with being a casual you twat. Yeah sure you may have been playing longer than me but I guarantee you I'm better geared and more skilled at my jobs than you will ever be with this kind of retarded attitude you keep spewing all over these forums.

CoP was terrible gameplay-wise, I have no clue why you are bringing this up, way to dodge all arguments again.

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 12:10 PM

Okay, Really. First off, Play-time has nothing to do with Intelligence, Skill, or knowing what you're talking about. Some of the biggest idiots I know in the game always fall back on "I've played longer so I'm right" as their argument when their Stupid Is exposed.

You are being completely hypocritical. You are bickering and complaining about NIN's throwing not being strong enough(AKA ISNT DOING ENOUGH DAMAGE) , While in turn ranting about how no one cares about anything but Damage, even going so far as to compare this game to a FPS. Hypocritical

You're only argument for wanting this Role-play Narutard Bullcrap Throwing to be useful is that it was there in other games at that it NIN's by job should be RP Shuriken Throwers. By this logic, Ninja Gaiden includes Multiple weapons, Including Giant scythes... IDK about you but the Hayabusa clan was boss, Why aren't you complaining NIN doesn't have A+ Scythe Skill? In Ninja Gaiden he did.

IN past FF Games Ninja's could throw any weapon, So why limit it to Shuriken? How come i can toss my kanagi at the Enemy and permanently lose it like in past FF Games? It happened in other Final Fantasy games, I should be able to throw my Weapon and lose it forever with the chance of whiffing.

Past FF games were Turn based RPGs, FFXI is a Realtime MMORPG, They are so Fundamentally different comparing them is insane. Past FF games throwing was good because no matter what, You were attacking ONCE PER TURN. in FFXI, Things like Math, haste, Dual Wield, Etc all come into Play. These two types of games are fundamentally different, and unfortunately how FFXI is programmed Ranged-Attacks interrupt Melee Attacks, and create a action delay between your next attack. That and Shurikens barely give any TP at all.

SE gave Ninja a throwing skill for the reason you described, NIN had Throwing in the past, It made sense to give them Shuriken and Throwing. HOWEVER, It was obvious it was meant to be nothing more than Mediocre-Side Damage at early levels. You can stlil throw Shuriken Even if they're not great damage. You're Allowed to Roleplay.

Its your terrible arguments, Your bad excuses, your hypocritcal attitude, that is causing this negative Attention. We don't care if you Roleplay NIN, We don't care if you run around throwing Shurikens and making Naruto Macros. Just don't try to force your tired, played out, Gimp perspective on NIN like we're the wrong ones for playing the job right.

We do not hate you, I don't even entirely hate the idea of NIN's being able to utilize throwing more, its just that NIN is not designed to be the King of Ranged attacks in this game like he was in past games. we have Ranger for this. There is no reasonable non-game-breaking-way, logical way to buff NIN's throwing to a point it would be useful.

By all means, Sange every second its up, but don't act like we're the idiots or bad guys just because we don't want to RP like you.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 12:11 PM

CoP was terrible gameplay-wise, I have no clue why you are bringing this up, way to dodge all arguments again.

I'm guessing you were one of those who cried about how difficult it was to get your Rajas Ring back when CoP first came out?

Kuishen

04-16-2011, 12:14 PM

I'm guessing you were one of those who cried about how difficult it was to get your Rajas Ring back when CoP first came out?

Again you just dodge all reasonable arguments and try to insult people. No, I wasn't playing when CoP came out. I got my Rajas after they had nerfed it once or twice. The stupid restrictions on certain battlefields and other dumb shit that they put in just to cockblock people instead of adding real challenges was what I was referring to. Try harder next time.

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 12:19 PM

I'm guessing you were one of those who cried about how difficult it was to get your Rajas Ring back when CoP first came out?

I love how you completely ignore everything said to you because you know you cannot argue against logic and math.
And if I had to guess, Kuishen is a knowledgeable player, the type of person who would read about missions or figure them out, and devise good strategies for how to win, and actually beat them. You on the other hand, are very bad at math and strategy in general. I would say he had a much better probability of beating CoP before you did.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 12:21 PM

Karbuncle saying alot of stuff, defending the current system, with the usual "Naruto-Jab" tossed in there.

So then go scout out other threads and bash their ideas, because you obviously like the way the game currently is.

But... What the hell are you doing on the forums and not playing?

Akujima

04-16-2011, 12:24 PM

Again you just dodge all reasonable arguments and try to insult people. No, I wasn't playing when CoP came out. I got my Rajas after they had nerfed it once or twice. The stupid restrictions on certain battlefields and other dumb shit that they put in just to cockblock people instead of adding real challenges was what I was referring to. Try harder next time.

So you think "cockblocking" is just an annoyance rather than a challenge?

So then go scout out other threads and bash their ideas, because you obviously like the way the game currently is.

But... What the hell are you doing on the forums and not playing?

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 12:25 PM

So then go scout out other threads and bash their ideas, because you obviously like the way the game currently is.

But... What the hell are you doing on the forums and not playing?

If you don't like the game so much, why are you even here?

Akujima

04-16-2011, 12:27 PM

You on the other hand, are very bad at math and strategy in general. I would say he had a much better probability of beating CoP before you did.

Do you even know why they fired the developer for CoP? Because all the Non-JP players were crying and leaving the game because "CoP is too difficult!, Heaven forbid we have to think!"

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 12:30 PM

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 12:31 PM

So then go scout out other threads and bash their ideas, because you obviously like the way the game currently is.

But... What the hell are you doing on the forums and not playing?

These forums aren't only for perople who hate everything about FFXI because it doesn't mimic Ability-for-Ability the other FF Games.

Those of us who happen to like how the game plays, but still enjoy the idea of being a part of how it improves can also post here, this isn't a forum designed to just whine and complain and cry because people disagree with you.

I'm sorry but not every idea is a good one, I don't like everything about the game, But i certainly don't enjoy the idea of people like you giving SE the idea NIN's want Dual Wield nerfed so they can RP with Shurikens more.

Seriously, I'm starting to see why this thread is going on so long, all you do is completely dodge any reasonable argument and make stupid attempts and insulting people. You seriously have not offered 1 good reasonable suggestion for improving Throwing. The one you did would not make NIN's throwing any more useful at all.

Look, I don't see why you can't seem to grasp the idea that not every game needs some stupid cliche of a Ninja being some dark Shuriken throwing master of everything. Yes, Throwing in past FF was great, in FFXI it isn't, And there is absolutely no possible way outside of absolutely breaking everything we know about current Haste/Ranged Mechanics that will ever change this.

Deal with it.

And move on. If you don't like it, Go play another game. Or change jobs. This is reality, Reality isn't always a kind mistress, Sometimes you have to accept the thing you like will never be useful.

My favorite job is THF, you think i enjoy the fact that 99% of the community thinks outside of Abyssea all we're good for is Treasure Hunter? No. But I've actually suggested reasonable non-gamebreaking related ways to improve this, and if they don't get added, I'm not going to spend my entire day in a forum whinning my THF isn't RP'ing an Assassin and being able to 1-hit K.O Anything with Sneak Attack. And i certainly would not resort to insulting or name-calling anyone who disagrees with me.

Go look at my Personal Pet thread in the BST forums, Some people disagreed with my points, Did i call them names and belittle them? no, I addressed their points and respected their opinion the subject.

You do not respect any opinion but your own, and call anyone who disagrees with you random names and you dodge any counter-argument with insults.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 12:32 PM

If you don't like the game so much, why are you even here?

I used to like it.

Now when I step into Abyssea, I feel like I'm in a shopping mall filled with angry rioters, trampling over people trying to get their next piece of gear.

Fiarlia

04-16-2011, 12:33 PM

Please tell me which other Final Fantasy games you have played? Explain in which of those that "Throwing" was not a key feature to the Ninja Job or a Ninja-like Character?

Final Fantasy. Yes, the original. Ninjas didn't throw anything, they cast black magic. Not Ninjutsu versions, actual Black Magic spells.

Final Fantasy VII, though arguable. Granted, she uses a shuriken and throws it, but that's just her attack animation. This is only throwing in the graphical sense, not in the sense that Ninjas from other games throw stuff. It can be done by equipping the "Throw" Materia, but since every character can also equip this Materia, it doesn't really count as it's not specific to Ninja-like people (Yuffie).

Final Fantasy XII (International version, as the normal has no "jobs").

Final Fantasy XII Revenent Wings.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 12:47 PM

And to sum up this thread.

Don't bother posting idea's. Because there will always be those slick program savvy zealots, ready to defend themselves in gangs.

ahh, screw it, im out...

Fiarlia

04-16-2011, 12:50 PM

And to sum up this thread.

Don't bother posting idea's. Because there will always be those slick program savvy zealots, ready to defend themselves in gangs.

ahh, screw it, im out...

Wow, so you not only dodge out on when people try to provide logic and sound reasoning and math, but you ALSO dodge out and ignore posts that directly do what you asked? You asked what other FF games didn't have Throwing as a key feature of Ninjas, and I provided it, and you even ignored that!?

Wow. I'm actually surprised about that one. Not entirely sure why, in retrospect.

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 12:52 PM

There are DOZENS Of threads on this Forum with Great, Well Thought out Ideas that are getting a lot of positive feed back, From Players and Devs a like.

You're Idea is Not Well Thought out at all. All you did was say "Ninjas are suppose to be Shuriken Throwers, I want to RP with Shurikens, FFXI Sucks and i can't Throw things good, Fix it now"

I'm Paraphrasing. Its not that this community Isn't opened to Ideas, Its that your idea was nothing more than a longer "Hordecore" post. It offered no solutions, Just a "I hate this, Fix it" type structure.

This Community does not hate nor insult good, Well thought out, Creative ways to improve the game. Yours is none of this. You have no offered in 10 pages 1 Single, Coherent, Non-Game Breaking reasonable solution to the problem at hand.

The one you offered before would not change anything about how Ninja is played, and it felt like you just came up with it in 20 seconds while you responded.

We as a community love nothing more than to think of wonderful ways to improve our gaming experience, You're entitled to that as much as we are. However you need to be able to accept criticism as well, not everyone will agree with your idea.

Think things out first. You're receiving the same criticism in every single thread, its not that they dislike you, its simply the idea of Improving throwing is nearly impossible.

Fiarlia

04-16-2011, 12:57 PM

Can't believe nobody mentioned this, but when a mob is flying, a NIN would likely be better off casting Ninjutsu nukes on it, rather than throwing shurikens.

And before guy says otherwise, I provided source in my previous post about how it is cannonical for Ninjas to be able to cast nukes, Ninjutsu or otherwise.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 01:02 PM

There are DOZENS Of threads on this Forum with Great, Well Thought out Ideas that are getting a lot of positive feed back, From Players and Devs a like.

Ok, so you made the decision for me. Great.

I'm done, there's no point anymore. I'm just being tag-teamed and pummeled into the ground by the same posts of "it can't be done, forget about it" over and over again.

Idea's are there to be expanded upon, but in your first post, you basically closed the book without even trying to discuss it further, and then just made silly tags and called me a Naruto lover.

Here's to you.

Fiarlia

04-16-2011, 01:07 PM

Still haven't addressed my post, guy.

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 01:08 PM

Ok, so you made the decision for me. Great.

I'm done, there's no point anymore. I'm just being tag-teamed and pummeled into the ground by the same posts of "it can't be done, forget about it" over and over again.

Idea's are there to be expanded upon, but in your first post, you basically closed the book without even trying to discuss it further, and then just made silly tags and called me a Naruto lover.

Here's to you.

I had nothing to do with the tags, Though i find them rather hilarious.

You really Just don't seem to get it. You've offered nothing. You've provided no means to a solution for your own wants. You just said "Its broken, Fix it" and when people say "Thats impossible" instead of going "no its not, Heres how" you say

"YOU'RE JUST TOO STUPID YOU CANT THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX YOU'RE A STUPID NA BLAH BLAH JP CULTURE BLAH"

You have done nothing but insult Every person who has a different opinion from you, and have offered nothing constructive from point 1.

My Half-hearted Joking-attempt at giving NIN a 300DMG Shuriken is more of a positive step in this threads direction than Anything you have posted across all of the threads regarding NIN and Sange or Throwing.

You have offered Absolutely no reasonable Solution to fix the problem, and just continue to Insult others for not being able to think of a solution. You are hypocritical to a Fault.

Frost

04-16-2011, 01:08 PM

Do you even know why they fired the developer for CoP? Because all the Non-JP players were crying and leaving the game because "CoP is too difficult!, Heaven forbid we have to think!"

Please site any, and I mean ANY factual basis for these claims. Not the usual "I read somewhere that _____." I want to see a link or a properly sited reference that I can look up.

And for the love of god learn your facts. Go research "Ninja" and base your "Role Playing" on facts. If anything you ARE getting your wish granted. Your ninjustsu tools and "Spells" are exactly what you're asking for dude... The use of ranged attacks, were used as an "opening move" or in cases when you weren't of the opponent's focus. It wasn't something you kept doing. In this game you actually fight pretty realistically (Within reason) you can use stars to pull, then once you have your opponent in combat, you engage them and use weapons, traps, and tools to disarm, impede, and subdue them.

Now stop with this madness. You're trying to convince people to use knives to fell trees... While you can, and currently have the tools to do so, it's much easier and widely accepted to use an axe; and we don't care that you read stories about the "Great Knife Lumberjacks", we have a job to do.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 01:15 PM

I had nothing to do with the tags, Though i find them rather hilarious.

You really Just don't seem to get it. You've offered nothing. You've provided no means to a solution for your own wants. You just said "Its broken, Fix it" and when people say "Thats impossible" instead of going "no its not, Heres how" you say

"YOU'RE JUST TOO STUPID YOU CANT THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX YOU'RE A STUPID NA BLAH BLAH JP CULTURE BLAH"

You have done nothing but insult Every person who has a different opinion from you, and have offered nothing constructive from point 1.

My Half-hearted Joking-attempt at giving NIN a 300DMG Shuriken is more of a positive step in this threads direction than Anything you have posted across all of the threads regarding NIN and Sange or Throwing.

You have offered Absolutely no reasonable Solution to fix the problem, and just continue to Insult others for not being able to think of a solution. You are hypocritical to a Fault.

Oh man this gave me a good laugh.

But you have to admit, it was a great thread and fun while it lasted eh?

Akujima

04-16-2011, 01:20 PM

Still haven't addressed my post, guy.

How about all FF's that NIN do have throwing? FF tactics, FF3, FF4, FF6. Yuffie technically doesn't have a "Throw" command (isnt there a throw materia?... idk havent played 7 in so long), but she's still Ninja-like and still throwing something ALL the time.

Anyways whatever, my strong opinion offends you, so I'm sorry I'm not just like you, I apologize for being different^^

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 01:29 PM

How about all FF's that NIN do have throwing? FF tactics, FF3, FF4, FF6. Yuffie technically doesn't have a "Throw" command (isnt there a throw materia?... idk havent played 7 in so long), but she's still Ninja-like and still throwing something ALL the time.

Anyways whatever, my strong opinion offends you, so I'm sorry I'm not just like you, I apologize for being different^^

No, Whats funny is that fia and you yourself, With that post, Just proved that Final Fantasy Series has not always given Ninjas a Strong Vital Throwing Ability.

So why does it matter if FFXI's NIN is more like FFVII instead of the one in Final Fantasy Tactics?

I can see though you've noticed that your suggestion was terrible and not thought out at all, And have just resorted to bad trolling and acting nonchalant about the entire thing.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 01:37 PM

No, Whats funny is that fia and you yourself, With that post, Just proved that Final Fantasy Series has not always given Ninjas a Strong Vital Throwing Ability.

So why does it matter if FFXI's NIN is more like FFVII instead of the one in Final Fantasy Tactics?

I can see though you've noticed that your suggestion was terrible and not thought out at all, And have just resorted to bad trolling and acting nonchalant about the entire thing.

oooOOoo, why so serious? You think I'm backing out? I'm just bored and I have better things to do then study algorithms of current game mechanics, and argue with zealots all day on forums.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 01:44 PM

I can see though you've noticed that your suggestion was terrible and not thought out at all, And have just resorted to bad trolling and acting nonchalant about the entire thing.

Seems like the only way to feel comfortable with getting your point across, is to totally null and void others, make them feel bad about themselves and instill your sense if hierarchy upon them. Which is another reason why I'm tired of this trash talk session, where all of you get your panties in a bunch and can't have a sense of humor, because the most important thing you need to attend to, is your ego.

I said I was done a few posts ago, find another thread to infiltrate and eliminate.

Perhaps I struck a chord, is that why you're still here? Either that or you're enamored by how someone who doesn't share every single viewpoint of the western world, could have such a fine grasp of the English language?

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 01:48 PM

Oh i get it now. You're just a Racist Weaboo. It all makes sense now.

oooOOoo, why so serious? You think I'm backing out? I'm just bored and I have better things to do all day then study algorithms of current game mechanics, and argue with zealots all day on forums.

So 2 + 2 = Studying Algorithms? i'm sorry but understanding the fundamentals between haste is nothing higher than 3rd Grade Math.

Seems like the only way to feel comfortable with getting your point across, is to totally null and void others, make them feel bad about themselves and instill your sense if hierarchy upon them. Which is another reason why I'm tired of this trash talk session, where all of you get your panties in a bunch and can't have a sense of humor, because the most important thing you need to attend to, is your ego.

I said I was done a few posts ago, find another thread to infiltrate and eliminate.

Perhaps I struck a chord, is that why you're still here? Either that or you're enamored by how someone who doesn't share every single viewpoint of the western world, could have such a fine grasp of the English language?

And yet you continue to post. more Hypocrisy! you're saying why do i keep responding, When you're doing the exact same thing! Your Hypocrisy and whiny rants are delicious.

I don't go around shooting peoples ideas down randomly to stroke some E-peen like you seem to think. I'd tell you to go look around at my posts, But its apparent you don't do any research as you're way to busy hating western Culture and pretending to be productive.

I'm always open to Ideas, offer constructive Criticism, Or add to the Post in a meaningful way. You're idea was just bad, you didn't even present an Idea, You offered no Solution, You simply said "I hate this, Fix it"

So Want me to cycle through your posts?

Insults.
Insults.
More Insults.
Insisting you're right with Insults.

So do go on, Continue to be a typical standard NA hating Racist. So yes, Your particular brand of Hypocritical idiocy does "Strike a cord' With me. You don't have any idea what you're talking about, and you hate without reason, and you complain without offering solutions.

and when ANYONE shows even the slightest hint of having a different opinion from you, You insult them for it. You even result to mocking an entire culture based on forum posts.

You, In closing, Hate without reason, Complain without a Solution, and insult without a purpose. You offer no productive conversation and deny and reject any who's opinions are separate from yours.

I at least humored the idea of improving throwing some point in this thread, Which is more than I Can say about you, as you simply adamantly refuse to accept that Throwing is obsolete and un-repairable without nerfing something, or buffing it into broken-ville.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 01:57 PM

And yet you continue to post. more Hypocrisy! you're saying why do i keep responding, When you're doing the exact same thing! Your Hypocrisy and whiny rants are delicious.

Oh, cmon. I think you're enjoying it.

And I'll take that "Nonchalant" comment as a compliment.

Karbuncle

04-16-2011, 02:10 PM

You know, I actually have a good idea.

If you hate us Western cultures so much, Why not go present your Idea to the JP Forums? See how they respond.

Seems like a good idea.

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 02:22 PM

I'm done, there's no point anymore.

one

two

oooOOoo, why so serious? You think I'm backing out? I'm just bored and I have better things to do all day then study algorithms of current game mechanics, and argue with zealots all day on forums.

four

five

How many more posts are you going to make after you claimed you were done with this thread, and had better things to do?

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you, had to go kill Odin real quick with 8 people, cause I actually have other stuff to do. Off to go work on my friends Ochain now~

Fiarlia

04-16-2011, 02:29 PM

How about all FF's that NIN do have throwing? FF tactics, FF3, FF4, FF6.

I never said that there aren't FF games that do what you're citing. You asked for someone to prove that FF games without Ninjas having a Throw command being one of their key points. I did exactly that. Hell, I even admitted that FFVII is a bit of a gray area, though the Throwing of Yuffie is merely an aesthetic Throwing, not a gameplay mechanic.

Yuffie technically doesn't have a "Throw" command (isnt there a throw materia?... idk havent played 7 in so long), but she's still Ninja-like and still throwing something ALL the time.

Not sure at all why you're mentioning this and trying to bring it up as a counterpoint because I already mentioned it in my post. Yes, it has a Throw command Materia, but since everyone can equip every Materia, it's not a key feature of the Ninja class or closest representation of it in the game in question (the characters appear to have jobs, but they're all exactly the same aside from Limit Breaks and stats). We could argue this point on semantics, as I'll acknowledge that in the terms of role-playing, Yuffie is a Ninja and throws a Shuriken during battle. But as far as gameplay is concerned she isn't throwing squat, her damage would be exactly the same and she would play exactly the same if she was wielding a Kunai or two. And I acknowledged this in my initial post, though in less words.

Anyways whatever, my strong opinion offends you, so I'm sorry I'm not just like you, I apologize for being different^^

Your opinion offends me? Nope. Actually, if there were a way to make Shuriken tossing viable in FFXI, I'd be all over it. I loved throwing Shurikens in the lower levels when the damage was roughly that of a GAX and the delay roughly that of a dagger, when Haste gear and the spell(s) weren't readily available. I honest to goodness loved it, and I miss it. But do you know what I'd miss more? Not doing good damage and playing a job to the fullest of its ability. Sorry to say, but this does not include flinging shurikens at mobs. And unless they do something utterly and stupidly ridiculous like adding new shurikens that are easy to come by that have retardedly massive damage (and I mean an unrealistic number for a shuriken - going against the RP mentaility, as it'd be completely out of the realm of feasibly possible), there's absolutely no way to make it viable. Not with the way the game mechanics currently work. And if they were to change the game mechanics, I'd much rather them use that time and effort (yes, it would take lots of both to make it happen) to do something more worthwhile, like make Ninja better on mobs that aren't comparatively weak - and Throwing skill isn't the way it would happen. No, I'd love it if it were feasible, but sometimes you just gotta realize that what you want can't happen.

The only part of you that I find offensive is basically what Krabknuckle is pointing out. You're quick to rage, quick to insult, quick to pull the RL card and call people fat/ugly/stupid. You're racist. You're stupidly hypocritical. You don't listen to logic or reason. You don't listen to math (which is something that's not under the scrutiny of opinion). Basically, you whine and complain and act like a total dickwad towards anyone who disagrees. You're throwing the internet equivalent of a combination of a grade schooler learning how to call people bad names, a two-year old throwing a "terrible two's" tantrum, and a high-schooler that thinks they know everything and listen to nobody. Stop your bitching and grow the fuck up.

Akujima

04-16-2011, 03:03 PM

The only part of you that I find offensive is basically what Krabknuckle is pointing out. You're quick to rage, quick to insult, quick to pull the RL card and call people fat/ugly/stupid. You're racist. You're stupidly hypocritical. You don't listen to logic or reason. You don't listen to math (which is something that's not under the scrutiny of opinion). Basically, you whine and complain and act like a total dickwad towards anyone who disagrees. You're throwing the internet equivalent of a combination of a grade schooler learning how to call people bad names, a two-year old throwing a "terrible two's" tantrum, and a high-schooler that thinks they know everything and listen to nobody. Stop your bitching and grow the fuck up.

I'm sorry I couldn't finish reading this last part of your post. I was too busy lauging my ass off, as soon as my eye caught glimpse of that Riker and Picard pic in your sig, which I will give you props for.

~~~~~~~~~~~Late night feature presentation~~~~~~~~~~~~
Episode 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z46_8EkC3g&feature=related

Episode 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3OQP0JN_JI&feature=channel_video_title
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Enjoy.

Fiarlia

04-16-2011, 03:09 PM

Not too surprising, since you've been failing to read pretty much everything anyone has been saying anyway, so at least you're par for the course, right?

Akujima

04-16-2011, 05:05 PM

Yes, Throwing in past FF was great, in FFXI it isn't, And there is absolutely no possible way outside of absolutely breaking everything we know about current Haste/Ranged Mechanics that will ever change this.

So I overlooked the whole forums. And...

It all pretty much comes down to the "min/max'ers" ruling the game and making the decisions. And that would be the main reason "such and such" would/could and should never be implemented. Simply because they say so (The numbers don't add up).

So, I urge thee not to indulge in the right of free speech, lest you be stricken with grief from your fellow LS mates, whom abide by the code of logic, and will do everything and stop at nothing, to run your dreams of change and creative thought into the ground, armed with the almighty weapon of mathematics.

Alas I warn thee, for not only do these nomadic creatures travel in packs, but call for aid often! You will soon be surrounded by swarms of them, banded together, aiding one another in the plot to twist your own words against you.

So, in the end my friend... Take caution when around these persistent predators. For should you be foolish enough to speak your mind, would only spell doom, and to shy away from this fact of the dreary "min/max'er", would be like sealing the nail on your own coffin.

The End.

How's that for some biblical RP $#!% ???

Greatguardian

04-16-2011, 07:52 PM

rah rah fight da powah. Awful lotta hipster rage up in here.

It's also not hard to "Twist your own words against you" when your own words don't do jack shit to support your case. Rather, that's assuming you had a case to begin with. Your opponents in this thread have offered better Shuriken solutions than you have (Not hard, since you haven't offered any), and even they acknowledge them to be wholly broken.

Instead of going off on another tangent trying to insult anyone who disagrees with you or raving about "free speech" and "thinking outside the box", or whatnot, try coming up with a single real counterpoint or idea beyond "Nerf the shit out of NIN and turn it into COR-1".

If you don't care how much damage one deals, then you don't need a Throwing buff. Period.

If you do care how much damage one deals, then you need to provide a Throwing buff that is both possible within the existing mechanics of the game and can at least respectably stand up to Melee damage. Good luck with that though. Karb and I have both tried, and it doesn't look good at all.

Darwena

04-16-2011, 09:47 PM

@Akujima;

Like you're post man, simply love them. ;) It's nice to see some player who still like the RPG part of the FFXI game. I'm agree with you, will be nice to se shuriken come back in FFXI for Ninja.

Want speed? Snap shot was acting like haste for Ranged weapon. so why not having snap shot for shuriken... Give us shuriken for lv 90 and we almost seted. why not some effect shuriken like bolt or arrow?

Think ppl will leave RNG for that? in the last new, with all the argue how sucky the shuriken is and OMG we should boost our melee combat... You still playing NIN over WAR or MNK no? And I think they are waaaaay stronger than NIN so far... As I know, PPL are still playing PLD now and they work hard to prove they still good for tanking when MNK and NIN took the #1 and #2 place for tank.

To all other who like to bash on Akujima: I have nothing to say cause what ever I will say, unless I say the same thing, you won't like it neway.

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 10:46 PM

I'm not good at English, but I like throwing and want it made better

Here's the problem with throwing, I doubt you saw it.

I'm gonna spell this out for you, try not to get lost, read it til you get it.
Manji Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Argue against me, go ahead.

How exactly do you think throwing can overcome meleeing?

Darwena

04-16-2011, 10:49 PM

Don't care if will be better or not, but sometime I prefer using throwing (mob with high spike armor) than melee to give me a break since I solo/duo 90% of time.

I dont hargue than melee sux again shuriken, I just want new shuriken... nothing wrong had having new stuff no?

wish12oz

04-16-2011, 11:14 PM

When SE wastes time adding useless stuff, the game as a whole suffers because it takes away time from adding good stuff. So yes, there is something wrong with it.

Darwena

04-17-2011, 12:21 AM

Karbuncle

04-17-2011, 01:56 AM

when something is wrong in a game and its bother you like its seem to do... take a break man seriously, you're mental health would be just better :)

Also, I don't know why you hate so much the idea of the shuriken, and stop the useless argument or the Katana is better and the mathematical formula... some ppl want new shuriken and if SE make some, what you gonna do? Quit FFXI?

Not a single time in this entire thread has anyone said anything close to "NO YOU CANT USE SHURIKEN STOP YOUR AN IDIOT"

My entire Argument since my first post has been Play How you want, Enjoy your Shuriken, RP to your hearts content, But as it stands, The idea of making Throwing a Viable, DD friendly, Acceptable Solution is simply unrealistic..

We don't care if you throw Shuriken, We don't care if you enjoy it, go enjoy it. We really do not care how you spend free time. The only reason this thread is ~13 Pages is because the OP denies logic. We (I) Would not care if they added a New Shuriken, I would however care if instead of a meaningful buff, We got some Ranged Accuracy Job Trait. This is what we're trying to prevent. We know Throwing is Impossible to Fix without seriously crashing the game, So we're trying to prevent SE from thinking "Oh Hey, Ninja's want Ranged Accuracy and Attack job traits and more Sange? OKAY".

Did you read anything? His posts literally start with "I hate how Ninjas doesn't RP Shuriken Enough. Fix it now".

I'll spell this out, Clearer. He's a hypocrite. he Mocks us for only wanting to do damage, while complaining he doesn't get to do enough damage with Shuriken. We don't hate him, or you for liking Shuriken. We hate that he's fighting tooth and nail for a system we've tried to explain just simply will not see a viable buff, one good enough to make it useful, without breaking the game, or nerfing NIN

We don't hate that you love Shurikens, We don't hate that you love Role-playing to Toss shurikens even those its Historically innacurate for a NIN to continually throw Shuriken during Combat which pokes a big hole in that argument, but, anyway, We do not care if you play the game and enjoy it how you want.

You want new Shurikens? Thats a reasonable argument, but i bet you your new Shuriken will either be from

A) 1 per drop from some stupid BCNM no one wants to do.

B)
Yield: 1 New Shuriken
HQ: 2 New shuriken
HQ2: 3 New Shuriken
HQ3: 3 New Shuriken.

Recipe. Goldsmithing 100
Smithing 100
Synergy 80
3x Phrygian Gold Ingot
3x Orichalcum Ingot.

Cause that's apparently good ideas for it (Hint: See Any Shuriken Recipe, and "Targeting the Captain").

Though, i would seriously commemerate if we got a new Shuriken at level 90~+ thats easily accessible. Would it make NIN throw more? not without it having 100% Critical hit rate and a base damage of 400, but it would give players like you something to toss around. Which will make more players happy.

And i'm okay with more players being happy.

I'm just not okay with people making a mockery of these forums.

Akujima

04-17-2011, 06:52 AM

Not a single time in this entire thread has anyone said anything close to "NO YOU CANT USE SHURIKEN STOP YOUR AN IDIOT"

Actually, this has been said many many times. And this post right here, says the exact same "we're idiots if we use shuriken" indirectly. Like I said in my final posts: It doesn't matter if someone enjoys RP'ing, because there will always be the trusty "min/max'ers" to the rescue, ganging up in hordes getting their friends to come over and press their "like button", just in case a Dev happens to stroll across this thread.

Their attempt at being polite and saying "do what you want, we don't care" is just a blatant lie. Because a few sentences later, they're twisted logic comes into effect, preaching to you about how you're ruining the game for them, and you should cease and desist immediately, effectively silencing you in the process.

In the end, they're the makers of their own demise, creating such a distasteful atmosphere for other players, that it diminishes the population and eventually after so long, the servers get shut down. All because they've reached their so called goal of "perfection" and what better to do, than go around and spread their elitist views, like some kind of cult instigating others for "not doing it right".

We can only pray that SE has some sense, and decides not to cater to these power hungry people, who try their hardest to drown out and silence the voice of the opposition. Using salesmen-like tactics, they'll continue to try and market their idea's, and these forums have now become just another battleground for their beloved doctrine: Minimizing the other persons view/Maximizing theirs.

Greatguardian

04-17-2011, 07:04 AM

You are allowed to do whatever you want when it doesn't affect anyone else. Yes, you're even allowed to be an idiot when it doesn't affect anyone else. That doesn't mean someone running around tossing Shurikens at things isn't an idiot. It just doesn't matter that they are an idiot if they aren't negatively impacting someone else's gameplay. That is okay.

There is a difference between screwing around on your own and trying to bring shuriken to a populated area or a group scenario, though. If you're running around with a group of people trying to DD with Shuriken instead of melee'ing, you're directly impacting their gameplay by underperforming. If you're taking an hour+ to solo Briareus because you're trying to Shuriken it to death, you're directly impacting everyone else's gameplay by underperforming. That is not okay.

Replying to you seems to be a waste of time, though. You don't read anything at all. You misrepresent everyone who disagrees with you by tearing down fictitious strawmen. You sound like some angsty teenager trying to stick it to the man when the neighbors tell him to turn his music down.

Karbuncle

04-17-2011, 07:17 AM

Actually, this has been said many many times. And this post right here, says the exact same "we're idiots if we use shuriken" indirectly. Like I said in my final posts: It doesn't matter if someone enjoys RP'ing, because there will always be the trusty "min/max'ers" to the rescue, ganging up in hordes getting their friends to come over and press their "like button", just in case a Dev happens to stroll across this thread.

Their attempt at being polite and saying "do what you want, we don't care" is just a blatant lie. Because a few sentences later, they're twisted logic comes into effect, preaching to you about how you're ruining the game for them, and you should cease and desist immediately, effectively silencing you in the process.

In the end, they're the makers of their own demise, creating such a distasteful atmosphere for other players, that it diminishes the population and eventually after so long, the servers get shut down. All because they've reached their so called goal of "perfection" and what better to do, than go around and spread their elitist views, like some kind of cult instigating others for "not doing it right".

We can only pray that SE has some sense, and decides not to cater to these power hungry people, who try their hardest to drown out and silence the voice of the opposition. Using salesmen-like tactics, they'll continue to try and market their idea's, and these forums have now become just another battleground for their beloved doctrine: Minimizing the other persons view/Maximizing theirs.

Please do not put words in my mouth. No ones ruining the game for me. I don't care if they even throw Shurikens while im in the party. I'll not agree with it. but I won't call them out for it.

Anyone can see from point one, You call everyone out on being "power Hungry", while the entire purpose of this thread was to "buff" your own playstyle of shuriken throwing. You want your Shuriken throwing to do more damage, and yet you condemn those who currently hold damage near them.

You may see it as Twisted, But i see it as Fair. You cannot get respect without first giving it. You have not shown an ounce of respect to anyone in this thread yet.

Maybe not every single one of my posts says it, But my argument has been and will remain that you can play how you want, But it won't make that playstyle any better, and that calling us the wrong ones for enjoying the game in our way (Doing it right) is unfair.

I do truly believe players should be able to have fun any way they can in this game, it is after all a game, i truly believe this, I do not care if you think I'm telling the truth or not. However you are not fooling anyone by trying to paint us as the bad guys. They can see your posts just as well as they see mine. And i at least try to say in every one of mine that I feel you can play as you want, Just don't get angry when people don't always respect your "uniqueness".

Edit: Also, DO you think we can just Agree to Disagree? Last time i tried to defend myself on these boards, no matter how nicely i tried to word it, Apparently i was Flamming. I don't feel like having my Account Suspended due to something like this.

Laciante

04-18-2011, 12:14 AM

Karbuncle

04-18-2011, 12:21 AM

As it stands Throwing is not as efficient and straight DD, but is that really a reason to ask SE to make multiple styles of play viable? Why is it necessary for there to be a single "right/best way to play"? If the purpose of playing was simply to fit the cookiecutter "best" and play as mechanically efficient as possible, there would be little reason in having the choice of gear or job choices or any sort of customization...
Am I wrong to think there is some margin of forgiveness between being less than perfectly efficient, and truly being a terrible player?

Read my post above you! It answers a lot of these question :\

The point isn't that making Throwing Viable is stupid, Its that its unrealistic. Any possible way to make throwing viable at all would either have to completely nerf how we view Dual wield/Haste, Or Buff Throwing so high that it would simply be too powerful to even realistically consider adjusting by SE.

It's not that we're against adding new aspects to the job, We just realize that throwing is something that is simply dead in the water. It cannot be resuscitated by anything short of Gods hand. While I would probably pat SE on the back if they managed to Fix throwing without breaking the game or nerfing NIN, I just can't think of a realistic way.

Someone in another thread mentioned "Throw Attacks", Kind of like "Kick Attacks". Where You'd have ~10% Chance to "toss" a Shuriken at the enemy at the end of your attack stage. He said it wouldn't consume ammo, It would just deal damage based on your Racc/Ratk instead of your Acc/atk. Which I thought was a decent idea, as it only improves Ninjas DPS, not hinder it.

Am I wrong to think there is some margin of forgiveness between being less than perfectly efficient, and truly being a terrible player?

Absolutely Not, I don't wanna go on a huge post please just read what i typed right about you. Mainly the parts about respect being a two way street, Players being able to have fun anyway they want, etc. If players who hold a "Unique" Style dear cannot respect us who hold the "right way" dear ro them, They can not expect us to respect them any more than they respect us.

Respect is earned and not given. If i Join a party and the NIN is just standing in range full R.acc/r.atk armor tossing Shuriken, I won't belittle him, I'd probably run a parse to see how well he's doing, But i'd let him do his thing as long as he doesn't start yammering about how gimp someone else is, or how bad another NIN is for not throwing Shuriken.

Its when the insults come into play that i stand and object.

wish12oz

04-18-2011, 12:30 AM

As it stands Throwing is not as efficient and straight DD, but is that really a reason to ask SE to make multiple styles of play viable? Why is it necessary for there to be a single "right/best way to play"? If the purpose of playing was simply to fit the cookiecutter "best" and play as mechanically efficient as possible, there would be little reason in having the choice of gear or job choices or any sort of customization...

Through this entire thread I have explained to you that throwing cannot be made good, without seriously breaking the games mechanics. And if you think about it, if they broke the games mechanics, and made throwing good, that would become the new best way to play ninja, and would suddenly become 'cookie cutter' as you put it. Things become 'cookie cutter' because they are good, and for no other reason, you can label it as bad, but in actuality, 'cookie cutter' is usually best, because that's how it becomes 'cookie cutter.' All you are really doing, is asking for the way you want to play ninja to become the standard.

Different gear being available isn't so people can wear whatever they want based on whims. It's there to suit specific purposes of, you guessed it, playing efficiently. And it's not like SE set out to create static subs for certain jobs, it just works out that some subjobs out perform others. You can go be gimp and sub whatever you want, no one is stopping you, but you need to quit advocating BS and asking for the impossible. You should learn how the game works, so you have a better understanding of what would need to be done to fix things.

Am I wrong to think there is some margin of forgiveness between being less than perfectly efficient, and truly being a terrible player?

The only truly terrible players, are the ones who don't know anything about how the game works, and refuse to learn.

Karbuncle

04-18-2011, 12:33 AM

Wrong guy Wish.

wish12oz

04-18-2011, 12:35 AM

lol, I saw the elf face and didn't look at the name. Good catch.

RaenRyong

04-18-2011, 03:25 AM

how do I join TEAMcat Wish :(

this thread has also made for some good reading.

JiltedValkyrie

04-18-2011, 03:52 AM

Throwing should be fixed, period.

Karbuncle

04-18-2011, 03:53 AM

Throwing should be fixed, period.

Fair Enough. How?

1 Rule. Can't nerf ninja in any way.

Akujima

04-18-2011, 06:16 AM

Throwing should be fixed, period.

There's no point in posting about the obvious, because the do-good'ers will just be on you about it, till the day they die.

At the moment, throwing does suck, and should be improved. But all you will get, especially in this thread, is continued assault about why we can't come up with a workable idea. Not to mention the "logic" in how fixing something that is kind of pointless to have in the game anyways, should just be over-looked or destroyed, tossed aside and forgotten about.

Instead of honoring something, giving it credit and respect for its bygone days, just kill it, turn your back the other way and be done with it. It's the exact same mentality that demolishes old heritage sites/cultural buildings, in favor of more "cost efficient facilities". But, I'm not sure they even understand that concept anyways.

RaenRyong

04-18-2011, 06:25 AM

so come up with a workable idea and prove us wrong

Kazen

04-18-2011, 06:42 AM

Well RaenRyong, to quote what he said:

Instead of honoring something, giving it credit and respect for its bygone days, just kill it, turn your back the other way and be done with it. It's the exact same mentality that demolishes old heritage sites/cultural buildings, in favor of more "cost efficient facilities".

Let's have some fun and rearrange this quote to better suit this thread.

Instead of honoring something, giving it credit and respect for its bygone days, just complain about it, turn your back on anything anyone else says and be done with discussion and instead be a hypocrite. It's the exact same mentality that demolishes old heritage sites/cultural buildings, in favor of more "cost efficient facilities".

Karbuncle

04-18-2011, 06:50 AM

so come up with a workable idea and prove us wrong

^ I Keep saying this. And I'm ignored.

Give me 1 True way to Fix throwing as a viable form of DD that does not including Nerfing Ninja in any way.

And I'm a man of my word, I will tip my hat to you.

Cause As I've said before. I'm not opposed to the Idea. I just cannot Think of a way to Improve on it.

Bulrogg

04-18-2011, 07:23 AM

Akujima

04-18-2011, 07:37 AM

While I am not against fixing throwing, a lot of our ideas are just not good enough. But why just leave it up to us... why can't we in agreement say "Hey SE may we have throwing fixed without nerfing NIN and putting RNG out of a job?" and see what they come up with?

Exact same thing I was thinking.

But, they seem to think we're on SE's payroll, either that or they just expect us to sit there all day and run the numbers. And even then if we did come up with a workable solution, the expected response is just "ehhh... It's too difficult. Just forget about it and boost Dual Wield some more or somethin...".

So, it's probably best to just leave it up to them. They seem to be willing to do everything for free AND pay SE $12.95/month.

No wonder they're "The Best" at the game. They help design the freaken mechanics! lol...

Karbuncle

04-18-2011, 07:47 AM

Cause then we end up with Sange 2.0 :\

And We don't think your on SE's payroll, But when you make a thread about something, You generally present a Solution as well.

If the people who want it the most, Can't think of a Solution, How will SE?

Edit: You don't need to work for SE to understand Mechanics... :| I might not speak for everyone, But i would welcome an addition to throwing that helps NIN, I just can't think of one, and we can't assume SE will have some magic fix, Or we get Sange.

Greatguardian

04-18-2011, 08:38 AM

If the people who actually play the game are unable to come up with a working solution, it's rather ridiculous to expect the Developers to be able to do it.

It's not like we know less about most existing game mechanics than they do. It's not super complex stuff. The Devs, however, work all day with all of the game's content and jobs. Players, on the other hand, may work all day with only some of the game's content and some of the jobs. This gives us a more precise outlook on potential problems and solutions.

Unfortunately, at the same time it tends to give some players Tunnel Vision. Heck, recently in the WHM forums people were talking about adding a Spell that removed weakness. You know. A spell that basically does exactly what Mijin Gakure does =/. Everyone wants to buff "Their favorite" job in every possible way. The Developer's job is NOT to appease all of these people, as that would just create a completely chaotic mess of the game. Rather, their job is to find ways to give jobs new abilities without presenting visible bias or obsoleting jobs.

Yeah, sometimes they mess up. Players will always find ways to determine what is best, even if only by a small margin. Gaps appear that the Devs may not have accounted for. But that doesn't mean they are going to intentionally go and completely break the existing mechanics of the game for anyone.

If NINs cannot come up with a solid, working way to make Throwing relevant without ignoring existing game mechanics, the Devs won't have a clue how to do it.

Ulric

04-20-2011, 07:16 AM

I've got a question. What reason does SE have to sort through all the BS to find the few actual good solutions, or ideas for what players want? I wouldn't mind an addition to throwing, I don't really like seeing my skill go to waste, but I highly doubt this is the way to go about getting something changed. If you want SE to take something seriously, I think we should make it easier for them to actually find good ideas. Isn't that what these forums are for? Personally, I liked the idea of making shuriken easier to get, which was one of the large problems with them. I also liked the idea of, instead of making them do "OMGWTF?" damage to compete with melee, making them have additional effects. Which ones may be good while preserving game balance, I can't come to any conclusions, but maybe that would be a start, hm?

wish12oz

04-20-2011, 08:42 AM

I've got a question. What reason does SE have to sort through all the BS to find the few actual good solutions, or ideas for what players want?

None, lets hope they don't bother, this thread is just a bunch of whiners QQing cause math and game mechanics say throwing is garbage and cannot be fixed.

I wouldn't mind an addition to throwing, I don't really like seeing my skill go to waste, but I highly doubt this is the way to go about getting something changed. If you want SE to take something seriously, I think we should make it easier for them to actually find good ideas. Isn't that what these forums are for? Personally, I liked the idea of making shuriken easier to get, which was one of the large problems with them. I also liked the idea of, instead of making them do "OMGWTF?" damage to compete with melee, making them have additional effects. Which ones may be good while preserving game balance, I can't come to any conclusions, but maybe that would be a start, hm?

The problem with 'debuff' shurikens is that ninja already has spells for all the good ones.(slow and blind) Unless they wanted to put amnesia on one, but that's pretty much not going to happen, and if it did, it would be stupid to get, like PP arrows, or current shurikens.

There's a complete lack of 'ideas' to make throwing usable in this thread, in case you didn't notice or read it. All the OP does is resort to name calling and saying no one loves him when you say anything to him, he won't even respond when you ask him direct questions. And the only worthwhile suggestion in other threads, is the one to give ninja basically 'kick attacks' like monk, but make it throwing attacks, and acc/damage based on ranged acc/att, that way you can use the throwing skill for something, and you don't lose DPS or TP gain, but actually increase both.

Akujima

04-21-2011, 06:01 AM

Karbuncle

04-21-2011, 06:47 AM

"Throwing attacks" is actually a good idea.

Another is an improvement to Sange, such as having more higher level, readily available shuriken (why SE would make Fuma Shuriken only yield 3 per synth and stack to 12 is beyond me). And I'm not talking about 400 DPS Shuriken, I'm talking about 120~ DMG (since Lv75 Koga Shuriken are 88 DMG) that would make sense.

The tactic behind it, if you haven't thought of it yet, would be to pop Sange at the beginning of the fight, and throw for some initial high burst DMG. The improvement to Sange would be, not to have it make you lose shadows and replace that with higher enmity generation or allow it to hit critically for each of the 5 shots or something along those lines.

Switching Qirmiz tathlum with another ammo piece does not make you lose TP. As for Ungur Boomerang? Oh well, but I suppose most of us could live without that extra 8 evasion. So there, I came up with an idea. But it's not like SE couldn't have figured out something like that for themselves.

I'm all for adding improvements to Sange/Throwing that involve simply "Initiating Combat" perspectives like the one above.

If there were ~D:120 Shuriken I could make readily, I would use Sange more if i had it merited. As it wouldn't interfere with Melee-Damage output ;o if used as an "Initiating Attack" like you described.

However, I think they should remove the "We take yer shadows" part of Sange. Shadows and Ammo are just too far. One or the other :\ (Please Keep shadows =.=)

"Throwing Attacks" (Like "Kick Attack") i think is by far the best suggestion though ;o

Shoko

04-21-2011, 09:59 PM

While I am not against fixing throwing, a lot of our ideas are just not good enough. But why just leave it up to us... why can't we in agreement say "Hey SE may we have throwing fixed without nerfing NIN and putting RNG out of a job?" and see what they come up with?

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing. Also my idea would simply be to tack on an extremely high D to a shuriken for a "fix" or w/e. like D120~130 should be a good starter.

Bulrogg

04-22-2011, 02:21 AM

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing.

Might want to tell the others that because they keep saying the only way that throwing could be fixed would nerf ninja melee DMG and also break the other jobs. I don't see RNG and BLM being put out of a job thought even if throwing was adjusted/fixed.

Greatguardian

04-22-2011, 03:06 AM

Might want to tell the others that because they keep saying the only way that throwing could be fixed would nerf ninja melee DMG and also break the other jobs. I don't see RNG and BLM being put out of a job thought even if throwing was adjusted/fixed.

Ranged Attacks will never be "awesome" because of the required innate delay in aiming and putting away a Ranged weapon. This especially harms Low Delay Ranged Weapons (uh, hi Shuriken) because the required innate delay is a larger proportion of the total Ranged Attack Delay.

The only viable fixes for Throwing itself (eg, not counting Throwing Attacks) would pretty much have to come in the form of either:

A) Fulltime Quintuple Throw, similar to Triple/Double Shot. Granted, this will be expensive as all hell to maintain (and rightly should be). I would not mind new Shuriken. But I'd like them to stack to 99, and not require Campaign Union spoils to craft. I rightly expect to be paying like 50k/99 though, or 600k for a stack of "Shuriken... Bags...". That's perfectly fine as long as the supply is stable enough for people to actually find them in stock.

or B) Entirely new Ranged attack mechanics for the game. This will probably never happen, and if it did it would most definitely break Ranger. This is what people are talking about.

Karbuncle

04-22-2011, 03:33 AM

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing. Also my idea would simply be to tack on an extremely high D to a shuriken for a "fix" or w/e. like D120~130 should be a good starter.

120~130 DMG Shuriken would still massively gimp your melee damage. The idea (in spirit of the OP) was to make Throwing tangible as a form of damage during combat.

But sadly, With a Ninja's natural Dual wield, and haste gear, They attack quite often. So even if the Shuriken had a delay of 10, theres a "2 second" universal action window that delays your attacks. Meaning for 2 seconds after you hit "Ranged attack" no other attacks/r.atks can be preformed, (or job abilities/WS) If you're on RNG, you notice this having to wait a while after the Animation for ranged attack goes off in order to preform a WS or use a Job Ability, Yes?

So a D:120 Shuriken would only do ~300 DMG inside Abyssea(stretching it), and during which, You've lose 1 Attack round, which inside abyssea is at least 500-600 Damage or more depending on Crits/Double/triple attacks. Thats where the "Makin RNG obsolete or nerfing NIN's Dual Wield" comes from. the Shuriken itself would have to deal over ~800 damage to make up for the damage lost from the 2-sec universal delay, and the Ranged-Attack Animation (assuming it gets another ~120 delay like other Shuriken).

This is all of course assuming those who want a fix to Throwing are asking for ways to use it more and maintain their damage.

Another Solution would be to have Shuriken give a large amount of TP. Could give a "Shuriken TP Bonus" Job Trait that, instead of giving Store-TP to shuriken, Boosts TP Gained by Shuriken per level. I.E

Shuriken give ~6TP.

Lv. 10
戦術的な - 手裏剣 - Raises TP gained from Thrown Attacks.
(Tactical Shuriken)

Up to...

Lv.90
Tactical Shurikan V

Which, Each trait would give an additional 6TP per Shuriken, for a total of 36 TP per Shuriken, So while the Damage would not be made up, it would give a large bonus to TP, meaning your WS-Phase damage would get a boost.

this would work well with the level 85~95 Shuriken. It wouldn't make up the damage, but maybe just maybe it would make up for it in WS-phase Damage. I'll leave it up to Wish/GG

wish12oz

04-22-2011, 03:43 AM

Can never put RNG out of a job if they fixed throwing. Also my idea would simply be to tack on an extremely high D to a shuriken for a "fix" or w/e. like D120~130 should be a good starter.

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

And if you bothered to read the thread, you would of noticed repeatedly how shurikens need to be completely broken, like 300+++ damage to even be half useful. 120-130 is jackishtnothing and would do nothing. Can you please read the effing thread before you post garbage?

Might want to tell the others that because they keep saying the only way that throwing could be fixed would nerf ninja melee DMG and also break the other jobs. I don't see RNG and BLM being put out of a job thought even if throwing was adjusted/fixed.

Same thing to you too, learn game mechanics and read the thread, your uninformed opinions serve no purpose in a debate about game mechanics and math. Fixing ranged damage mechanics so they're useful at max level would break the game. The only possible solution is letting haste affect ranged delay, and that would not fix throwing by itself.

wish12oz

04-22-2011, 03:53 AM

for a total of 36 TP per Shuriken, So while the Damage would not be made up, it would give a large bonus to TP, meaning your WS-Phase damage would get a boost.

Shurikens need to do just over 6 melee attacks worth of damage and tp gain to stay on par with just meleeing. (see earlier in the thread) More then this if they are to be better and useful and worth buying and losing inventory/gil for. Your idea would fix the TP gain, but not the damage, around 36 tp per shuriken only the TP is keeping up, and it's not increasing WS frequency. This plus like 700 base damage shurikens would be required with current game mechanics, maybe more, I'm not going to do the math to say exactly what it is, but rest assured 700 is low balling it.

Karbuncle

04-22-2011, 04:01 AM

Shurikens need to do just over 6 melee attacks worth of damage and tp gain to stay on par with just meleeing. (see earlier in the thread) More then this if they are to be better and useful and worth buying and losing inventory/gil for. Your idea would fix the TP gain, but not the damage, around 36 tp per shuriken only the TP is keeping up, and it's not increasing WS frequency. This plus like 700 base damage shurikens would be required with current game mechanics, maybe more, I'm not going to do the math to say exactly what it is, but rest assured 700 is low balling it.

Sometimes i forget how beast NIN is :|

Hmmm, Well there goes that idea too. I'm trying not to break the game when i do this, But lets see. Maybe starting at level 10, NIN could get a Shuriken Mastery type Job Trait. Each level would do something like this.

Lv.15 *Increases TP Gain, R.acc, Critical hit rate/damage, Reduces Delay, and Increases Damage of Shurikens
lv. 30
lv. 45
lv. 60
lv. 75
lv. 90

VI Tiers.
*Shuriken Damage: Increases Damage based on your level (your level x1.5) I.E if you're level 40, it adds 60DMG to your shuriken. level 90 adds 135.
*Delay Reduction. Starts at 10%, increases relative to Dual wield.
*Increases Critical hit rate by 5%, Damage by 5% per level. total 30% Each.
*Ranged accuracy: increases R.acc by 5 each tier (total 30)
*Increases TP Gained per shuriken by 7 Each level (Total 48TP Per Shuriken)

This is breaking the game in my eyes, and even i think it wouldn't be enough.

Akujima

04-22-2011, 04:05 AM

It doesn't seem to matter anyways, because the norm is that you phase out "crappy" jobs from the roster. If a job doesn't put out what you want it to, does it matter if the person playing it is having fun or not? It's just like what saevel said in another thread... "The whole WAR, MNK, SAM, BRD, BRD, RDM mentality" where players pick and choose jobs based on efficiency and speedy battles...

You may think I'm calling you out or something, but I highly doubt you even bring RNG to events, especially inside Abyssea, and especially if that person has another "better" DD job such as WAR, SAM or MNK. And sure it's cool that you want to win quick and grab as much loot as possible. But that same style of play is also teetering the game out of balance.

Ranged attacks themselves are getting worse and worse, according to your standards I'm guessing. Not to mention the fact that there isn't many situational bosses that require ranged DD to be there, which was another thing I've been asking for. The whole "Spank and Tank" gameplay gets boring after awhile for some people. And the idea behind this thread was to implement different styles of play, not to be harassed about how idiotic we are because we can't beat a boss in 5 minutes instead of 7.

Karb/Wish/GG, you do what pleases you. But don't expect everyone else to take a back seat to efficiency because their favorite job has become "obsolete" so to speak.

Karbuncle

04-22-2011, 04:50 AM

I don't know why you insist on bundling me with those two in terms of "Tone of post". I've repeatedly told you that you can play however you want and enjoy the game. REPEATEDLY. I never expect anyone to quit a job.

Did you even read the part where i said I low-manned with my friends? Repeatedly allowing my brother to come on his DRK? DRK is an inefficient job in abyssea, but he enjoys it so i let him do it.

However, The entire idea of this thread however was to improve Throwing to increase its damage and make it more viable as an option to Ninjas, Which is where i commented on. and once your ignorance and hatred left the thread, you can see above we actually made some improvement.

Proof to the positive you are the main source killing your own thread. Instead of offering anything meaningful to the discussion, You make 3 paragraph posts Insulting everyone who has posted recently, and then makes fun of Me, Wish, and GG, then move on to do it again 2 posts later without even reading anything we type.

I say you don't read, cause I've repeatedly encouraged people who post here to play how they want, but also reminding them in an MMO not everyone would accept them like me, and their playstyle is not always met with open arms because its not efficient or damage friendly, yet you seem to repeatedly lump me in with the "Kill yourself" mentality the others have.

I share their opinions and views, but I use a different tone to get my point across.

Akujima

04-22-2011, 07:06 AM

This post is for Karbuncle

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

It's this kind of stuff that gets annoying to see. And its this kind of mind set which makes me want to "counter-post". Yes I do read the posts, and sure my replies seem to have a little bit of attitude. But nothing so straight out @$$hole-ish as the quote above, is written in my paragraphs. Admittedly I was wrong to group you together with Wish/GG and whoever else wants to team up and press each others like button against me.

Just as soon as something positive comes about, another "elite" wants to come in and steer us right into the wall again. It's quite funny, because I clearly remember Wish being the one saying that if NIN got better throwing, "it would put RNG out of a job" which is an interesting thing to note. But why not fix RNG then? Or should we just be done with that Job too, and focus on boosting the "better Jobs", continuing to do the same thing that causes them to complain and be upset at the other Jobs that are being left out.

I make good points, and I think that is what in turn sets people off. Relativity is a factor to weigh in. Who would want to play RNG to 90 (or some other job that doesn't fit in the elitists description) only to have people exclude them from events, or be told to level up something else, because RNG isn't "cool enough for school". According to them, what's the point in even having RNG in the game at all? I would like them to answer that if they could.

I am frustrated. This thread was actually starting to turn positive for once, but then someone has to come in and take a dump on our heads.

Karbuncle

04-22-2011, 07:12 AM

The honest to goodness best Solution is to offer Ideas.

Spit-ball some fixes, Really think about it.

If you suggest productive means of improvements, others will follow. I even build on them when i see potential.

Just make some suggestions for your own thread, And people will follow. Really really think them out, Weigh the pro's and cons.

Orenwald

04-22-2011, 09:18 AM

Shuriken give ~6TP.

Lv. 10
戦術的な - 手裏剣 - Raises TP gained from Thrown Attacks.
(Tactical Shuriken)

Up to...

Lv.90
Tactical Shurikan V

Which, Each trait would give an additional 6TP per Shuriken, for a total of 36 TP per Shuriken, So while the Damage would not be made up, it would give a large bonus to TP, meaning your WS-Phase damage would get a boost.

stack this with Sange and you have a mini-Meditate, hit 3 times and you instantly get another WS. if they make Sange fire off instantly like Eagle Eye Shot it would be even better, you could solo skillchain with any sub you want :D

Karbuncle

04-22-2011, 09:23 AM

stack this with Sange and you have a mini-Meditate, hit 3 times and you instantly get another WS. if they make Sange fire off instantly like Eagle Eye Shot it would be even better, you could solo skillchain with any sub you want :D

Now all we need to do is get rid of Sange Removing Shadows and we're golden.

WS > Sange > WS > Skillchain.

That wouldn't be that bad of a fix. Maybe as to break it less, the "TP Bonus for ranged attacks" Could only apply to Sange. Meaning you could isntantly get ~150TP With Sange.

Greatguardian

04-22-2011, 06:03 PM

This post is for Karbuncle

It's this kind of stuff that gets annoying to see. And its this kind of mind set which makes me want to "counter-post". Yes I do read the posts, and sure my replies seem to have a little bit of attitude. But nothing so straight out @$$hole-ish as the quote above, is written in my paragraphs. Admittedly I was wrong to group you together with Wish/GG and whoever else wants to team up and press each others like button against me.

Just as soon as something positive comes about, another "elite" wants to come in and steer us right into the wall again. It's quite funny, because I clearly remember Wish being the one saying that if NIN got better throwing, "it would put RNG out of a job" which is an interesting thing to note. But why not fix RNG then? Or should we just be done with that Job too, and focus on boosting the "better Jobs", continuing to do the same thing that causes them to complain and be upset at the other Jobs that are being left out.

I make good points, and I think that is what in turn sets people off. Relativity is a factor to weigh in. Who would want to play RNG to 90 (or some other job that doesn't fit in the elitists description) only to have people exclude them from events, or be told to level up something else, because RNG isn't "cool enough for school". According to them, what's the point in even having RNG in the game at all? I would like them to answer that if they could.

I am frustrated. This thread was actually starting to turn positive for once, but then someone has to come in and take a dump on our heads.

Even I've said a dozen times now that I don't give a shit what you do or how you play on your own time. You haven't only been skimming Karbuncle's posts, but everyone's because you find some random hot-button to freak out over before you actually comprehend the content.

This thread would be a lot better if the OP actually attempted to offer a single solution which is actually viable under the constrictions imposed by the game's mechanics. That is the #1 big thing that I've been trying to impress for the past few pages. Saying "Buff throwing because I like it" isn't going to get you very far when it's extremely difficult to come up with a working way to do so. Those very difficulties are the reason why Throwing has been left on the wayside by most players.

Frankly, I really haven't seen a single good point from you. It's mostly just freaking out over how we're "Stomping on your rights" and "trying to oppress you" and such. Hell, I feel like even I've contributed more worthwhile information to this thread than you have. But that doesn't bother me. Continue to shit up your thread all you want despite the fact that everyone else was actually having a polite discussion about the only idea anyone has had this entire time that was at all feasible. It's not my problem.

Spitballing is fine, but throwing out ideas that are impossible to implement or are too vague to even imagine implementing isn't going to do any good. In order to find a way to adjust Throwing in FFXI to make it feasible, you have to first know how Throwing and FFXI work. Unfortunately, a lot of people most certainly do not, and when they post things which are most definitely impossible or which are just so completely outside the bounds of reality it just infinitely frustrates and angers the people who are actually trying to think up a solution.

I've tried. Other people have tried. I seriously can't think of jack shit. Throwing Attacks is the only good idea to come out of all of these throwing threads combined, and it's good solely because it does not use the /RA command. If you could sit down and attempt to actually find a solution that works, rather than freaking out on those of us who know "Idea X won't work", this thread would be a lot better off.

wish12oz

04-22-2011, 07:26 PM

It's this kind of stuff that gets annoying to see. And its this kind of mind set which makes me want to "counter-post". Yes I do read the posts, and sure my replies seem to have a little bit of attitude. But nothing so straight out @$$hole-ish as the quote above, is written in my paragraphs. Admittedly I was wrong to group you together with Wish/GG and whoever else wants to team up and press each others like button against me.

That was simply a statement of fact, for how most of the community acts and thinks. Why something like this would upset you, I have no idea. You need to come to terms with that fact that people are not interested in bad jobs. That is the whole point behind everything I say, add good stuff or add nothing. Lets say they add new shurikens, and they have 120 damage, and they're super cheap to make. Well guess what! that won't fix the problem, throwing will still be crap, and no one will use it. If you don't fix the entire problem, you fix nothing. It would be a waste of SE's time to add junk no one would use, because they could use that time spent adding junk no one cares about, to add good content, or fix the real problem.

Just as soon as something positive comes about, another "elite" wants to come in and steer us right into the wall again. It's quite funny, because I clearly remember Wish being the one saying that if NIN got better throwing, "it would put RNG out of a job"

Bulroggg and Shoko are the ones who came in here and crapped up the thread, I dunno if I would call them elite when they don't even understand simple game mechanics. I also do not remember saying that, please point to where I did.

I make good points,
No, you really don't, that's why I argue against all of them. If you made a good point I would let it stand.

Relativity is a factor to weigh in. Who would want to play RNG to 90 (or some other job that doesn't fit in the elitists description) only to have people exclude them from events, or be told to level up something else, because RNG isn't "cool enough for school". According to them, what's the point in even having RNG in the game at all? I would like them to answer that if they could.

Currently there is no point to having RNG in the game, which is why they should fix it in a way to make it useful, so that there is a point to having it in the game.

I am frustrated. This thread was actually starting to turn positive for once, but then someone has to come in and take a dump on our heads.

I agree. Maybe you should try and come up with some solutions and post them, then we can talk about if they would work or not.

It doesn't seem to matter anyways, because the norm is that you phase out "crappy" jobs from the roster. If a job doesn't put out what you want it to, does it matter if the person playing it is having fun or not? It's just like what saevel said in another thread... "The whole WAR, MNK, SAM, BRD, BRD, RDM mentality" where players pick and choose jobs based on efficiency and speedy battles...

This is how it works, bad jobs don't get used. Instead of complaining about it, and saying you should play it cause its fun. Maybe you could learn mechanics, learn why it's bad, then come up with good solutions to make it useful. If all the jobs were on an even playing field, which you find fun would be the only reason anyone had to play a job. This is what I want to happen. All the melee jobs doing about the same damage, in slightly different ways, and having slightly different utility functions, so that whichever you find fun to play, and mob mechanics for what you are fighting are the only factor in picking what to play.

You may think I'm calling you out or something, but I highly doubt you even bring RNG to events, especially inside Abyssea, and especially if that person has another "better" DD job such as WAR, SAM or MNK. And sure it's cool that you want to win quick and grab as much loot as possible. But that same style of play is also teetering the game out of balance.

Game's always been out of balance. Originally everyone RNG burned everything, then BLM burned, later DRK zerg, later still melee zerg. I remember DRG being the best melee, then RNG, then WAR NIN and MNK, then SAM, now MNK NIN and WAR again. It's how the game works, the only constant has been that WAR has never been bad, it's always been near or at the top.

Ranged attacks themselves are getting worse and worse, according to your standards I'm guessing. Not to mention the fact that there isn't many situational bosses that require ranged DD to be there, which was another thing I've been asking for. The whole "Spank and Tank" gameplay gets boring after awhile for some people. And the idea behind this thread was to implement different styles of play, not to be harassed about how idiotic we are because we can't beat a boss in 5 minutes instead of 7.

Again, you're completely off the mark. Ranged attacks are getting worse and worse because of the increased access to haste every melee is getting. Haste is what makes ranged attacks useless, and nothing else. It's not an opinion of mine, its math, and math is fact. 2+2 always equals 4, and 4 is always bigger then 3, that's the way it is.
And if playing melees is boring to you, try leveling a mage job, or tanking. Or do what I do, main tank and main heal AT THE SAME TIME. It's pretty hard sometimes, lulz. Especially when you have 10 bad melees attacking what you're tanking and feeding it tons of TP while you're trying to keep shadows up, this sort of endeavor might change your mind about bringing bad melees to things.

Karb/Wish/GG, you do what pleases you. But don't expect everyone else to take a back seat to efficiency because their favorite job has become "obsolete" so to speak.

Most of the community stops playing things when they become obsolete. How many RNGs do you see running around? I remember when every other melee was a RNG, how many SAMs do you see right now? How many ninjas did you see before abyssea, compaired to now? The minority doesn't care about efficiency, the majority care and want to be good.
YOU ARE THE MINORITY, not me.

Karbuncle

04-23-2011, 01:57 PM

Sometimes i forget how beast NIN is :|

Hmmm, Well there goes that idea too. I'm trying not to break the game when i do this, But lets see. Maybe starting at level 10, NIN could get a Shuriken Mastery type Job Trait. Each level would do something like this.

Lv.15 *Increases TP Gain, R.acc, Critical hit rate/damage, Reduces Delay, and Increases Damage of Shurikens
lv. 30
lv. 45
lv. 60
lv. 75
lv. 90

VI Tiers.
*Shuriken Damage: Increases Damage based on your level (your level x1.5) I.E if you're level 40, it adds 60DMG to your shuriken. level 90 adds 135.
*Delay Reduction. Starts at 10%, increases relative to Dual wield.
*Increases Critical hit rate by 5%, Damage by 5% per level. total 30% Each.
*Ranged accuracy: increases R.acc by 5 each tier (total 30)
*Increases TP Gained per shuriken by 7 Each level (Total 48TP Per Shuriken)

This is breaking the game in my eyes, and even i think it wouldn't be enough.

Wish, I brought this up before Aku's last post. Look at this, How do you think it would fair?

Also, Take into account You could just take advantage of this every ~5 minutes with Sange. IT wouldn't make throwing useful entirely, But if this trait was introduced, and You could use it with Sange, It'd make throwing useful every 5~20 minutes. yes? (I forget Sange's recast, I know its something super-retardedly large without 5/5 merits)

Could get ~250TP Per Sange with that update depending on Shadows. Also

忠実な忍 - Lv. 80 Job Trait.
(Loyal shinobi)
*Augments Sange. Enhances Sange.

*Enhances - No longer Absorbs Shadows
*Augments - Gives Sange 50% Chance to "Rapid Shot"

Akujima

04-23-2011, 02:18 PM

YOU ARE THE MINORITY, not me.

I never denied this. Yet history has shown that those who bring about change, never follow the norm.

Greatguardian

04-23-2011, 05:49 PM

Oh god it's more cliche crap rather than a single constructive post from Akujima.

Moving on, @Karb, those look like pretty boss-tier adjustments. Though, personally I'd think a boost to Ranged Attack may be preferable to Critical Hit rate/Dmg (or in addition to, if we're talking purely hypothetically). Ranged Critical Hits are a straight 1.25x multiplier rather than a 1.0 boost to pDif, so they're incredibly lackluster compared to Melee Critical Hits.

Delay Reduction may be better served as Snapshot/Rapid Shot as well, since Shuriken already have such low delays and I'm unsure if it's even possible for a JT to mitigate the 120 Ranged Attack Animation Delay. Because of that innate delay, I don't know if it'd be technically possible at all for Shuriken to ever beat Melee'ing in a group scenario. But, with buffs like those, depending on their finalized numbers and implementation, it could pull Throwing up enough to be at least marginally useful Solo.

Karbuncle

04-23-2011, 06:04 PM

Greatguardian

04-23-2011, 06:26 PM

Think it would be like Loxley Bow, The Animation basically doesn't finish before the arrow shoots.

Really? That's pretty cool, actually. I have COR rather than RNG so I've never really messed with anything faster than Peacemaker. I have the faster Scars zone gun but I've never really found a reason to use it.

wish12oz

04-24-2011, 01:05 AM

Anything that would increase throwings damage beyond 6 melee swings worth of damage and tp gain makes it on par with meleeing.

Karb: With your JT suggestion it would depend on how much damage the shurikens you can get would be. But if they were decent for what it should be now, maybe 130 ish damage, I'm sure it would keep up with meleeing, maybe surpass it a bit if you don't have a bard. Can't be more exact without being super specific with what katanas people are using and gear all that, but around 130 should be sufficient, maybe a little lower, like 110 could work too. The only downfall it would have would be stack size and cost to make for whatever new shurikens they would add to go with it.

I completely agree with you too, adding that JT exactly how you put it, is what would really be required along with good shurikens to make throwing viable, and it just looks amazingly overpowered and wrong, so I highly doubt SE would seriously consider it. But then, DRK just got 60% attack and 25% JA haste for 3 min out of every 4min 10sec, so who knows.

Lastly:

I never denied this. Yet history has shown that those who bring about change, never follow the norm.

Seriously? I wrote you a book and that's all you have to say? Nothing constructive or useful, just trying to act like you're some amazing Godsend like America's founding Fathers when you haven't contributed a single noteworthy thing to this thread? grow up.

Akujima

04-24-2011, 03:17 AM

Seriously? I wrote you a book and that's all you have to say? Nothing constructive or useful, just trying to act like you're some amazing Godsend like America's founding Fathers when you haven't contributed a single noteworthy thing to this thread? grow up.

Oh I read your entire post.

And really? Did you fail history class or something? Or could it be that you just hear what you want to hear, and leave out what is distasteful to you. You might want to use a different example, someone proper, like Ghandhi, John Lennon or Rosa Parks. And I'm not comparing myself to those people at all, just simply saying that this "minority" plays a more significant role when it comes to positive change.

The thing I did agree with, is that all jobs should do pretty much the same amount of damage, but just be played differently. And I'll say again, that the game should be a "Rock, Paper, Scissors" style, when it comes to bosses and mobs, where in some cases it's good to have ranged attackers, etc. WAR, even from an RP standard when being the topmost melee, just makes sense. But it shouldn't completely overpower every other melee job, as to make them entirely worthless.

Nor is it a right thing, when the popular belief is that since WAR is the "best" melee, therefore everybody who wants to be useful, should go level WAR this instant. But guess what? If there is NO dynamic gameplay and NO circumstantial battles, that kind of stuff WILL happen. Ranger is a Ranger because they shoot from a distance, but if there is no mobs that require being engaged at from afar, what the hell is the point of a Ranger.

Shibayama

04-24-2011, 02:23 PM

My goodness gracious. I'm not even a NIN and I had to respond to this.

You compared your want of NIN's using shuriken VS using their melee potential to "playing chess like a smart person cuz it requires strategy" and "Being a fencerider and doing what everybody does because you can't think for yourself."

So lets continue with the chess motif shall we? What you are suggesting is like refusing to make use of your queen because "The queen is OP and everybody uses the queen! I'm just gunna use my pawns because in Through the Looking glass Alice was a pawn and she managed to win the chess game!!" Choosing to make use of your strongest assest is what makes a cunning player. This isn't yugioh - you can't pull a win with your kuriboh card if you believe in it hard enough and people aren't dumb or uninspired for wanting to use something strong and reliable.

That being said: Perhaps if there were a new, easier to afford shuriken that was used at the start of fights to work as a debuff of some sort that compliments the NIN's natural DPS I think that would be fine. But I think at this point yearning for this to be like final fantasy III where Throw was the nin's big damage is beyond wishful thinking. You're just going to have to come to terms with the fact that in final fantasy 11 NIN's didnt get throw.

They got gil toss.

Akujima

04-24-2011, 06:58 PM

So lets continue with the chess motif shall we? What you are suggesting is like refusing to make use of your queen because "The queen is OP and everybody uses the queen! I'm just gunna use my pawns because in Through the Looking glass Alice was a pawn and she managed to win the chess game!!"

Okay... For the last time...
This is like trying to explain quantum physics to a chimp...

Each piece in chess is unique and has its own set of movements and tactics. Albeit the Queen may be only one and may be the "strongest" in your eyes, but any decent chess player worth their weight in salt, knows how to use every piece to their advantage, even the so called "lowly pawn". Of course you should obviously protect your Queen, and sacrifice other pieces to carry out your strategy, but not blindly.

WHM is the "Queen of Healing", WAR is the "Queen of Melee". FFXI in the past (before the endgame elites started hardcore discrimination of job/subjob combos) worked like this...

RDM Won't ever surpass a WHM in healing, but it can bring to the table other things that WHM cannot, such as high enfeebling and unique buffs. SAM couldn't out damage a WAR in straight melee, but it brought the possibility of more skillchains, in effect helping BLM's in potentially MB'ing for more DMG. THF didn't do spectacular in melee, but they in turn complimented tanks with TA, helping them with extra enmity, and also treasure hunter for more loot.

So the point of this "Chess Metaphor" is that each piece compliments one another, and works together to achieve the goal. I'm sure you could totally win and smash your opponent if every piece you had was a Queen, but then where is the challenge in that? If I'm not mistaken, that's the whole idea of a game. To be challenged and work together as a team to overcome that challenge. Neither am I saying that each piece should be a pawn.

What I'm saying is that, each job should have a major strength in something different from other jobs. Throwing might not get fixed, because FF has been declining in innovative gameplay. People stopped using SC's, then came the bias against certain jobs/subjobs, fixed camps, merit parties that consisted of the same jobs over and over, in the same locations. Now we have Abyssea, where a RDM's refresh doesn't truly matter anymore, because with Atma's and Equipment, mages have enough MP regen, along with INT/MND/CHR to keep up on their own.

Slowly and slowly, the colorful battle system, (that in my opinion made FFXI the classic it is) is slowly vanishing, in favor of the "solo" mindset. You can solo to 90, you can solo Abyssea, you can solo so many things now... And that's great and all, but it really takes away from what makes a good online RPG... I suppose that anyone who has a clue what I'm talking about, is extinct now or have moved on to other underground games.

Possibly it's my attachment to XI and the nostalgia that comes with it. But just because throwing sucks, doesn't mean that there isn't some way to bring it back from the dead. Just because ranged attacks seem useless, doesn't mean that there isn't a way to revive their usefulness. This endless quest for fame, power and dominance has blinded us from the simple pleasures. The same simplicity that made FFXI addicting in the first place. How awesome it was to pull off a skillchain with a friend, and throw in a well timed magic burst right after. Or lining up for the THF to get in their SATA for some serious burst damage between pulls.

Culture is nostalgia that you hold onto. If you don't want any culture, then discard it. If you do, then revive it and embrace it. And once you have, maintain it.

Sayonara.

Shibayama

04-25-2011, 02:07 AM

Wow, talk about self-righteous. You've had 17 prior pages of people telling you that your ideas are just not plausible, yet you act like everybody who disagree's with you is a lowly moron and you're this *visionary* who the rest of us sheep just don't understand since we've been brainwashed by some elitist mentality. When everybody disagrees with your idea, saying that "like all great leaders in history who made change my ideas scare the conservatives" and "*scoff* this is like explaining quantum physics to a chimp because I'm smart and you're dumb, now let me prove it by giving you a poorly conceived history lesson." doesn't make you sound like the enlightened SCH you think it does. It makes you sound like somebody who has been pantsed, but is trying to convince everybody else that they're the ones standing around with their underwear around their ankles.

It' pretty clear at this point you're going to attack anybody who disagrees with you so there's no real point to continue responding to you - just don't get your hopes up for shuriken as a main damage source if the only suggestion you have for it is "Ninja throw shuriken in all the other final fantasies and thats what makes them ninjas so XI by proxy needs to make throwing shuriken what makes ninja shine!"

Despite your attitude, others like Karbuncle have actually tried to come up with a viable solution to throwing which works as a compliment to NIN's natural DPS, not a replacement, as well as working with the limitations XI has in place. I actually think the idea of making shuriken function abit like footwork in regards to slower attacks for increased TP gain would be interesting, but I've seen Iga +2 Nin's swinging like there's no tommorrow, so how much of a necessity this would be is hard to tell.

The only solution I can think of to capitalize on Nin's A- throwing skill would be to make a line of shuriken that function like marksmanship bolts, but even that is hard to justify since why would SE not just make that into a Ninjutsu spell for debuffs like defense down?

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be off on the dancer forums advocating that since our AF weapon is a chakram, a relic-chakram needs to be incorporated because blah blah culture.

wish12oz

04-25-2011, 05:16 AM

Okay... For the last time...
This is like trying to explain quantum physics to a chimp...

Yes, for the last time, throwing sucks and cannot be fixed, here's why:

I'm gonna spell this out for you, try not to get lost, read it til you get it.
Manji Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

This is gonna be my new response to you because it's entirely not worth reading anything you have to say, and you can't argue against math.

Bulrogg

04-25-2011, 01:59 PM

SE can adjust throwing if they so choose.

Greatguardian

04-25-2011, 04:43 PM

SE can adjust throwing if they so choose.

About as easily as .... No, I can't come up with an appropriate metaphor. If you don't understand the difference between an adjustment within the bounds of a system and a complete reworking of a system, nothing anyone can tell you will help. Fixing throwing the way you want it may as well be making a new MMO and calling it Final Fantasy.

Oh hey. Wait. They already did that. Maybe FF14 will have cool Throwing mechanics for whenever they implement "Shinobi".

Bulrogg

04-26-2011, 12:39 AM

I guess I will pull a page from 12ozmouse.

SE can adjust throwing if they so choose.

wish12oz

04-26-2011, 05:07 AM

SE can adjust throwing if they so choose.

You totally right, SE can adjust throwing all they want.

Unfortunately without a complete reworking of the system or a JT buff like Karb described,
IT WOULD BE COMPLETELY STUPID AND POINTLESS AND STILL SUCK.

here's why:
I'm gonna spell this out for you, try not to get lost, read it til you get it.
Shurikens have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Bulrogg

04-26-2011, 06:25 AM

SE can adjust throwing if they so choose.

and I'm all for it :D

Bulrogg

04-26-2011, 08:00 AM

SE can adjust throwing if they so choose.

I read it the first time and I agreed, it would take something major to make Throwing = Melee. But that's not what I was suggesting. Nonetheless your rude, harassing remarks still won't sway my opinion :)

Greatguardian

04-26-2011, 10:27 AM

I read it the first time and I agreed, it would take something major to make Throwing = Melee. But that's not what I was suggesting. Nonetheless your rude, harassing remarks still won't sway my opinion :)

If you're just going to be dense and refuse to contribute anything meaningful to the discussion, kindly stop spamming the Ninja boards. Thanks.

Akujima

04-26-2011, 03:21 PM

wish, GG and anyone else interested in a very well thought out comprehensive study of video game design, should watch the Youtube Link posted below. This will basically explain the basis of everything I have been saying. Example given based on the video below: FFXI used to be Castlevania 1, but is slowly turning into Castlevania 2.

Watch for interesting synopsis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2aIt0ROM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Bulrogg

04-26-2011, 08:08 PM

Greatguardian

04-26-2011, 08:36 PM

I've offered many suggestions through out the NINJA adjustment threads you and 12ozmouse are trolling.

I was the one that suggested Job Trait: Shuriken Attack which would work similar to a Monks: Kick Attack. If the trolls would have not been so small minded and quick to argue with Akujima and others that are supporting an adjustment to throwing, what ever that adjustment may be.... maybe they would have noticed it among the other ideas that have been suggested. All in all we are all guilty of spamming these threads and not contributing in every single post made. So does that mean it's time to lock the thread then?

Akujima is the only one here who could even possibly be said to be Trolling. You're most definitely misusing the term. I know you're the one who mentioned the Kick Attack JT, but you're also the one who's said the exact same thing for the past 5 posts just quoting yourself without stopping to read just why what you're saying is so completely obnoxious.

Think of FFXI's programming as a huge pyramid, like the old food pyramid:

At the base you have the Engine, and the massive amount of fundamental code designed in order to make the game function at all. Trying to tweak this is quite literally impossible. It cannot be done by the current Development staff. They don't have the resources, the time, the money, or the people.

One rung above that, you have the still-massive amount of code dealing with the actual mechanics of the game world. Tweaking this is impossible for all intents and purposes. Doing so would be akin to creating a new game, rather than adjusting an existing game.

Another rung above that, you have the moderately sized amount of code dealing with how all of those mechanics interact with one another. The job system, fundamental monster/player relations, etc are here. This can be changed, but it takes a lot of work and it's very easy to screw it up and cause an unintended break in the game. The last time this has been tweaked to any significant degree was the 2H update.

etc etc etc a couple more rungs

Finally, you have the Toolkit rung where the Devs can implement new JA/JT/WS to existing jobs and tweak the power of existing JA/JT/WS. This is what the Devs actually work with for 99% of player-related updates and adjustments. If we want something to be done about any particular job, this is the rung we need to expect them to use. It is easy to access and adjust, but it is fundamentally limited by all of the previous rungs.

The kind of Throwing adjustment you are asking for requires massive changes to the very bottom rung, as well as to the rung directly above it. Do you see why that would cause a problem? Yes, "SE can change their game however they want to". They could turn it into an RTS if they want. That does not mean they have the time, manpower, or will to make a completely new game out of FFXI's base code just to appease role-players. Sorry. It's not going to happen.

Not a single suggestion on the face of the planet that requires adjusting the game's Engine or fundamental code is anywhere near constructive because it is simply too far out of the realm of possibility to ever be considered by the Developers. They do more harm than good by taking attention away from legitimately constructive suggestions.

Fyreus

04-26-2011, 08:40 PM

That's not a bad idea Bulrogg... infact i like it if it was also a milti hit :D

Another idea would be to make a JA with like a 15 hit shuriken shower or sinply give ninjas a third option: Keep shuriken the same but simply put it in the ranged slot like the ungerang and allow it to hit multiple times. That way you can go in and melee or choose to use a multi hit ranged attack ad we already know about the ws stuff... There are so many ways to adjust but i do understand the limitations on developer time even if they release stuff quarterly.

*edit* To the above poster: I think the best approach is to make a sub ja class setup such as dnc uses to approach this issue or go naruto blue mage style and make shurikens as physical spells. Although i think the real issue is misplaced speghetti code or no one wanting to recompile an engine that probably didnt have an intuitive scripting language or plug in (think torque tga with ts but hard coded even when lua was out lol) so since we don't know what's binding SE's hands we can only speculate.

Bulrogg

04-26-2011, 09:23 PM

Greatguardian

04-26-2011, 10:14 PM

Adjusting throwing was never for the RP aspect for me. I was only hoping it would be adjusted to bring it back to where it was before the 75+ limit break. I remember when tossing a shuriken out on a run away mob was about the same as using 'Provoke'. I rarely sub /war anymore unless I am trying for red staggers. It would be nice to have throwing back to where it was so tossing a shuriken would land solid hate again. Now I've never parsed or anything like that so I don't know the exact amount of hate it did generate but it would always return the mob back to me.

I also thought Sange could be fixed to allow for Crits. Maybe even some merit-able Job Traits that effect Sange; imbue it with a Provoke or Gravity effect or what would really be nice is if you could merit it so shadows weren't consumed and maybe an unlimited shot for the one sange. That way one could swap Nokizaru in Sange then swap back to Qirmiz for no TP loss (from swap).

Also I'm not saying this needs to be an immediately addressed issue, just something to hope for on the way to 99.

The bolded is the biggest problem with people's misconceptions about Throwing. The fact of the matter is it was simply never good over level 50. Not because of the lack of Shuriken, though that did not help matters. But because of the increased availability of Haste. As is, NIN should always be able to hit 25% Haste and 45% Dual Wield minimum no matter what. This alone causes Melee DoT to soar beyond what Throwing could ever possibly reach within the confines of the game mechanics. Adding in outside sources of Haste just widens the already huge gap.

Also, just an aside, you can already swap Throwing items without losing TP. It's why Dart pulling was miles ahead of using a Crossbow on Thf at 75. TP in Bomblet, swap to dart, throw, swap back to Bomblet.

Bulrogg

04-26-2011, 10:44 PM

wish12oz

04-27-2011, 04:28 AM

I wasn't trying to compare throwing to meleeing DMG hate generation. I know that melee > throwing. I was trying to provide an example of how I used throwing prior to +75. It was like using provoke when a mob would move out of melee or ability range. I could toss a shuriken and as the mob was coming back to me start casting a spell, rather then trying to chase it down.

This is your main problem, you don't even know what you're trying to argue.

It was the damage the shuriken did that made the mob come back to you.

Nothing else.

When you have low or no haste and low damage katanas early in the game, shurikens far outdamage meleeing, which is why they were useful. This is not the the case later in the game, and is why they suck. So yes, you were comparing throwing to melee damage for purposes of gaining hate, you just didn't realize it.

If the trolls would have not been so small minded and quick to argue with Akujima and others that are supporting an adjustment to throwing, what ever that adjustment may be.... ?

Whatever that adjustment may be?

Ya, right.

Here's whats gonna happen if Akujima gets his way.
SE would add new shurikens, and nothing else. Maybe they would even be cheap, but the game's mechanics would not change, and throwing would STILL be garbage, and he would make 10 more threads bitching that throwing sucked. Beyond that is the fact that SE would of wasted their time adding garbage to the game when they could of spent time making real improvements.

I'm not for wasting SE's time, or adding garbage to the game so idiots can RP as whoever from previous FF games. Add good, useful job abilities/traits/items or add nothing.

Bulrogg

04-27-2011, 04:43 AM

I did not know you could melee at 25 yalms from the mob... Oh you can't?

I know the example I was trying to explain. Yes it was the spiked damage from the shuriken that returned the mob to me and unless you've found a way to melee from 18-25 yalms then you are doing ZERO damage. I have been and am still saying, "when a mob would run away, a simple shuriken toss would be the same as using provoke." Yes, you lose melee DMG output from tossing that shuriken but if the mob is out of range you are doing ZERO damage. Yes, melee damage far outputs any damage that throwing could ever do... but if the mob you are fighting is out of range your melee is doing ZERO. It is when the mob would go out of range that I would make use of throwing to return the mob to me without having to give chase.

I said "what ever that adjustment may be" because different people are looking for/suggesting different things through out all the threads this is being discussed.

EDIT: I said 25 yalms at first because that's the max distance for throwing iirc. I said 18-25 yalms because I would attempt make use of an ability(15)/spell(18) to regain hate first.

wish12oz

04-27-2011, 05:03 AM

I know the example I was trying to explain. Yes it was the spiked damage from the shuriken that returned the mob to me and unless you've found a way to melee from 18-25 yalms then you are doing ZERO damage. I have been and am still saying, "when a mob would run away, a simple shuriken toss would be the same as using provoke." Yes, you lose melee DMG output from tossing that shuriken but if the mob is out of range you are doing ZERO damage. Yes, melee damage far outputs any damage that throwing could ever do... but if the mob you are fighting is out of range your melee is doing ZERO. It is when the mob would go out of range that I would make use of throwing to return the mob to me without having to give chase.

Mobs only run away to other people at the early stages in the game when you have low haste/dw. If they run away from you now, you're doing something incredibly wrong. At the early stages in the game you do bad melee damage, and you should be using shurikens to keep hate/win the parse. Doing the most damage is the easiest/best way to tank. When mobs run away early in the game, and you throw shurikens at them, they do a lot of damage, and make the mob come back, because they raise your enmity higher then everyone else's, because of previous actions enmity and all the new enmity gained through the damage.

The comment wasn't about whether you're doing 0 damage because you're not meleeing since the mob is far away. It's about game mechanics, and how they work early in the game, and later in the game. If mobs run from you at 70+ and you use shurikens to bring them back, I pity you and everyone you play with. If you don't understand that last comment, like the other one, be sure to ask and I will come back and explain it completely to you.

Greatguardian

04-27-2011, 05:12 AM

Shuriken are nerfed to hell at anything over 6' anyways, so there's really absolutely no point in pulling the "Range" argument. If you're trying to actually use Shuriken, you are going to do so from Melee range.

Bulrogg

04-27-2011, 05:31 AM

Nope, I completely understand your lack of ability to comprehend anything other than your own viewpoint. Because if you could, you would know that I was not talking about now, I was making a comparison to pre+75. But I see no use in explaining it or discussing anything further because of your previously mentioned lack of comprehension coupled with your quick to argue attitude. Enjoy living in that world where nothing ever goes wrong because everything that happens, only goes right there. And I will relish basking in your pity for me.

wish12oz

04-27-2011, 05:43 AM

early in the game,

at the early stages in the game

Nope, I completely understand your lack of ability to comprehend anything other than your own viewpoint. Because if you could, you would know that I was not talking about now, I was making a comparison to pre+75. But I see no use in explaining it or discussing anything further because of your previously mentioned lack of comprehension coupled with your quick to argue attitude.

You were making a comparison to early in the game, and so was I, I even said it in both posts I made. Why are you trying to say I can't read or comprehend anything when clearly you are the one lacking in this area.

Enjoy living in that world where nothing ever goes wrong because everything that happens, only goes right there. And I will relish basking in your pity for me.

Hang out with better quality players, and teach the people you play with that are not the best to be better and you won't have the problem of hanging out with bad players and stuff always going wrong?
Or is that just the suggestion of some elitist prick who doesn't like to lose pops or wipe to NMs or spend an hour fighting something you could kill in 10 minutes and that sort of thing, so it shouldn't be taken seriously?
Of course, this will require you to learn about game mechanics and math and all that other 'elite' stuff you and Akujima seem to have such a problem with.

Akujima

04-27-2011, 06:01 AM

Watch this @#$%'ing video and then discuss.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2aIt0ROM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

wish12oz

04-27-2011, 06:46 AM

I have no interest in watching your RP pr0n that doesn't relate to why throwing is terrible and cannot be fixed.

Akujima

04-27-2011, 06:58 AM

I have no interest in watching your RP pr0n that doesn't relate to why throwing is terrible and cannot be fixed.

Actually you're probably too afraid to watch it, because it has too many valid points which would make you lose all your arguments.

wish12oz

04-27-2011, 07:30 AM

If it was anything even close to that, you would said what they were by now.

Greatguardian

04-27-2011, 09:49 AM

Akujima

04-27-2011, 10:17 AM

If he can't take 5 minutes to write a coherent post with actual points and comprehension of other people's writing (read: not "Fight da power" bullcrap), I can't take 15 minutes to sit and listen to a random youtube link.

Look. This thread is done. What needed to be said was said, and if that information fell on some deaf ears... oh well. It's not in my agenda to convince you two of creative concepts, while you preach mathematics to me. Albeit the same mathematics that are in the game (continually assuming that we don't know) with no intent on figuring out how to improve ranged attacks (Even for RNG... NIN's throwing would come much later). You make thread tags about how I whine and cry about NIN's not having throwing, but the difference between you and me, is that I won't make 800+ posts across hundreds of threads bashing other peoples ideas because it makes me feel good.

I'm done with this thread and I'm sick of having to be pessimistic to get my point across, because that is simply the only way you communicate (this is true, because the few posts in which I have tried to be positive, you've just $#!% on me). So go back to your farm-fest, grind for hours upon hours for some half decent gear/cruor and beat some bosses that aren't very hard because your stats are ridiculously high. And sure it's fun for awhile, but after you guys start taking that $#!% too seriously, people like us come out and say something about it.

So yea, that's it. I'm out. It's basically like Bullrogg said... Pointless repetition isn't going to make you realize what we're talking about, but rather it's something that someone eventually figures out for themselves.

wish12oz

04-27-2011, 11:08 AM

I'm done with this thread

I wonder how many times you'll say this before you really are.

Creative concepts are not creative or useful when no one will use them, in this case, if they do bad damage and are really expensive like throwing.

Karbuncle

04-27-2011, 11:28 AM

200 Posts ~

That Being said. I'm shocked this has Continued so far. At least we got 1-2 good suggestions, Though none of them Realistically possible.

Darwena

04-28-2011, 09:17 AM

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I want exposive AoE Shuriken that deal 9999 DMG to all surounding mob to compete with WAR's cleave ***.

Fyreus

04-28-2011, 05:16 PM

200 Posts ~

That Being said. I'm shocked this has Continued so far. At least we got 1-2 good suggestions, Though none of them Realistically possible.

I still believe that adding a ja with sub ja classes instead of throwing wses is in the realm of possibility. The problem would be SE's history with adjustment hit or whiff syndrome when the player base makes a suggestion (my favorite is still the ban of any and all 3rd party tools and gave us a half baked windower when we asked for bot bans lol).

Shoko

04-28-2011, 09:59 PM

Hi, RNG is useless and is already out of a job, it is the absolute worst DD in the game, everything else does way more damage then it does, and its obnoxious when rngs stand far away and pull hate, so most intelligent people won't even bring RNGs to anything.

And if you bothered to read the thread, you would of noticed repeatedly how shurikens need to be completely broken, like 300+++ damage to even be half useful. 120-130 is jackishtnothing and would do nothing. Can you please read the effing thread before you post garbage?

Same thing to you too, learn game mechanics and read the thread, your uninformed opinions serve no purpose in a debate about game mechanics and math. Fixing ranged damage mechanics so they're useful at max level would break the game. The only possible solution is letting haste affect ranged delay, and that would not fix throwing by itself.

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

wish12oz

04-29-2011, 02:44 AM

I only came back to this thread to respond to this, but you really make obnoxious and stupid posts. How's that NIN treating ya now that you don't have to RDM/DRK refresh and stun at Tiamat anymore? lol

If you know of my comments about Tiamat, maybe you should look for the math I posted about fighting Tiamat with PO, and why no RDM would have enough MP to do it the way they wanted. And yes, the game is always more fun when when you don't have to play with people who cannot keep up with what the new best strategies are, and how to use them effectively.

Actually I really don't know you, but from what I realize, you're a dense person that strives to make himself feel better by dumbing down everyone's ideas. Also one that feels NIN will be playing at an optimal pace (BRD, Haste, DNC) 100% of the time, which just isn't possible.

This is entirely wrong, you do not need anything but gear, haste spell and marches to hit the attack delay reduction cap.
Keep in mind that any good bard will have at least a +2 march horn and +2 hands for march+1, and if they don't, through minimal effort you can acquire both of them for the bard if it's someone you hang out with a lot.

BRD with +2 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+3 Total):
Advancing is 10.9375%
Victory is 14.0625%
We'll say 11 and 14 to make it easy.

Should that bard have a Ghorn, or after the update should they add a +3 march instrument, which they will eventually, just look at how every other song is getting a +3 instrument. (except ballad)

BRD with +3 Instrument and +1 March from Hands (+4 Total):
Advancing is 12.5%
Victory is 15.625%
We'll say 12 and 16 to make it easy.

Base dual wield of Ninja at Lvl 90 is 35%.
Haste spell is 15%
Gear haste caps at 25% (and is very very very easy to reach)
gear + spell + both marches+3
25 + 15 + 11 + 14 = 65% haste

gear + spell + both marches+4
25 + 15 + 12 + 16 = 68% haste

so 65% haste for march+3, 68% haste for march+4

If we assume you have normal everyday ninja gear along with base dual wield.
Base DW 35%
Suppanomimi 5%
AF3+2 head 5%
af1 body 5%
This brings DW from 35% to 50%

Adding 50% DW to 65% haste bring your delay reduction to 82.5%, 80% is the cap

So as you can see, with normal gear ninja easily has access to, and a bard with march+3, which is also easy to get, you can easily exceed the delay reduction cap.

Also, a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg within Abyssea and outside of it. Peace. This will be the last post ever addressing anything you say, I'd rather listen to everyone else's post (including GG) instead of your babble.

This is also incorrect, here's why:

The only RNG I know has a gandiva, so we'll be using the gandiva for comparison, and assuming an ACC rate of 100% because I don't feel like applying 95% acc to everything, because that will just tip the scales in the NIN's favor even more.

Kannagi+kamome delay is (210+180) 390.
Apply 80% delay reduction to that, and you get 78.
Lets look at attacking now, 2 attacks per 78 delay, 54% of the time you get an extra attack, so we can safely say, you get 3 attacks per round. (apoc 15% TA, eponas 3% TA (18% TA) eponas 3% DA, brutal 5% DA, /war 10% DA (18% DA) so we do 18+18+18 = 54.
So ninja comes out to 3 attacks per 78 delay time.

Gandiva+arrow delay is (490+90) 580.
For the sake of this arguement we're going to assume the rng is standing far away, and only shooting, so he's going to have a 580 delay between attacks.

-------math from here down is incorrect, see below post for correction-------
Now, lets say we have a 50% rapid shot rate (which is way more then you have) So 50% of the time the bow delay is reduced to 0. so we can take away half the 490, to make it 245, 245+90 = 335.
Now lets apply all the snapshot availible to the 245, Lets say you have a 5% body, 3% belt and 5% hat...... (mirke, impulse, af3+2 hat, and Im not even sure the hat is 5%) and velocity shot is 10%.
5+3+5+10 = 23% snapshot
245 x .77 = 188.65
So we'll say your new delay is 188+90 for 278.
So RNG gets 1 attack for every 278 delay.

278 divided by 78 is 3.5641etc
we'll say 3.5
So basically, ninja gets 3.5 attack rounds per RNG attack round under the best possible circumstances for RNG.
At 3 hits/round NIN gets (3.5x3) 10.5 attacks per a RNG's 1 attack.
Looking at just melee attacks, 1 shot from a RNG needs to do as much as 10.5 attacks from a ninja, for the RNG to be on even ground.

Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage, so we'll leave WS damage comparisons out of this. But we will talk about WS frequency.
A good RNG will almost have a 4 hit inside abyssea, so we'll say they have a 4 hit.
My NIN gets just under 5tp/hit, and 11 from WSing. Which means I need 22.25 hits between WS's, at 3 hits/round this means I need 7.5 rounds of attacks between WS's.

So which happens faster? 3 rounds from a RNG, or 7.5 rounds from a NIN?
If we look at the thread higher up, it says we get 3.5 rounds on nin per round on RNG, so in those 3 rounds for RNG to get 100 TP, a NIN gets 10.5 rounds.
What this means is a NIN actually gets MORE WS's then a RNG in the same amount of time.

How much more?
well, if NIN gets 10.5 rounds and needs 7.5 every time a RNG gets 100TP, that means in the time it takes a RNG to get 200TP, NIN gets 21 rounds, which is -almost- enough to have gained 300tp. If the RNG wasnt mashing on his ranged attack macro as fast as possible and getting every shot off as soon as possible, the NIN would actually reach the 22.5 rounds needed to get 300 tp.
So basically, for every 2 WS's the RNG gets, the NIN gets 3.

What does all this mean?
It means every RNG WS needs to do 1.5x as much damage as the NINs, and Every attack the RNG makes needs to equal 10.5 attacks by the NIN for the RNG to stay even in damage with the NIN, and this is assuming everything is in the RNGs favor, 50% rapid shot, a 4 hit, max snapshot, and very little fumbling between attacks.

So, while actually playing the game is it even remotely realistic for a RNG to keep up?
Absolutely not.
But feel free to provide your own indept analysis to counter me, I welcome the chance to debate this with you.

wish12oz

04-29-2011, 08:47 AM

Corrections:
So when I made the above post I was unsure of how much rapid shot activates, and there was no information anywhere when I looked. Because of this, I just gave it a 50% activation rate, because I knew NIN would still come out way ahead.

After some digging I found the activation rate is 10% for the job trait, and you gain 5% from merits, and there's some pants you can wear, entois trousers, and that's it. Everything else with rapid shot on it is not worth using because it's in the same slots as snapshot. If we assume the pants are 5% (no one seems to know what it is, but 5% is more then generous) this would bring rapid shot up to 20% activation rate, instead of the aforementioned 50%.

It was also pointed out to me I made a slight mistake when I did the snapshot calculating. I need to take the snapshot from 490, then add it to what the new rapid shot delay total is, and divide by 2 to get the cumulative effect of both.

(490*0.8)+(490*0.77)=769 /2 = 384
392 + 377 = 769 /2 = 384

Add arrow delay to this new bow delay with snapshot/rapid shot factored in, and you get (384+90) 474.

474 divided by 78 is 6.076923.
So ninja actually get 6 attack rounds per RNG attack round, or 18 attacks per 1 attack by a RNG.

Recalculating WS frequency means RNG still needs 3 attacks to reach 100tp, and during those 3 attacks NIN gets 18 attack rounds in this time, or 54 attacks. In my last post we figured out NIN needs 22.5 attacks per WS (assuming 4 tp/hit, 11tp return from WS)
Which means for every 1 WS RNG gets, NIN gets 2.4 WS's, this is WAY MORE then originally proposed.

New conclusion now that I know the real rapid shot values:
RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then a NINs, and every shot they make needs to equal 18 attacks by a ninja for the RNG to KEEP UP, not do more damage, but to simply keep up. This is assuming the best possible scenario for the RNG, 4 hit, max rapid shot, max snapshot and no fumbling between attacks.

I made a new post instead of editing the old one because I made a mistake in it, and it seemed wrong to simply change it like nothing happened, because I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.
But my last comments still stand.
Is it realistic to think a RNG can come anywhere close to a NIN's damage?
Absolutely not.
And I look forward to your in-depth analysis of why I am wrong and debating this issue with you, since you said:

a well played RNG with the right weapon can and will crap all over a NIN's dmg

Scynte

04-30-2011, 11:32 AM

A good way to make shuriken on par with returning throwing weapons might be to add a recycle effect that only works for shuriken. They have done this for ninjutsu already in the form of Ninja Tool Expertise, so it should be possible to do. Since there are only a few types of shuriken in the game, each can be modified to have this new characteristic.
This way, shuriken can still be expensive, but they will last longer. They can adjust the recycle % effect to preserve balance. Also, depending on the effect they'd decide to go with, only a stack or two would be all that is needed for an outing.
This alone won't fix the problem, but it'll make using shuriken actually worthwhile.

Charismatic

05-01-2011, 12:40 AM

wish12oz

05-01-2011, 04:30 AM

"Blade: Hi and Jishnu's basically do the same amount of damage"

Gonna go ahead and say that's wrong. We have two Kannagi's in our LS and a Gandiva, no way in hell their His do the same damage as his Jishnu's on most anything. Then there's the fact that our Taru God loves to self-light damn near everything for massive damage.

Can you provide parses or are you just loleyeballingit?
Because if you don't know, let me tell you a secret, loleyeballingit is never even close to accurate, parse or do the math manually or go away.

But the point still stands that-
RNG WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then a NINs, and every shot they make needs to equal 18 attacks by a ninja for the RNG to KEEP UP, not do more damage, but to simply keep up. This is assuming the best possible scenario for the RNG, 4 hit, max rapid shot, max snapshot and no fumbling between attacks.

Does your RNGs Jinshnus do 2.4x as much as the Hi's? And do each of his attacks hit for as much as 18 of the NINs?
I think not, but better luck next time, and if they do, you're welcome to provide parses, or the damage calculations to prove it.

Here's some links you might find useful while proving me right:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Physical_Damage
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/PDIF
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Base_Damage
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Calculating_Weapon_Skill_Damage

Small edit: gonna provide some numbers to better illustrate my point about the damage RNG needs to do to keep up.

Lets say the NIN's Blade: Hi's only average 2500, which is obnoxiously low (my average is 3700~ inside abyssea) @2500 damage, Jishnus needs to do 6000 average to keep pace. For my average, the RNG would need to average 8880 damage per WS......

If the ninja only hits for 50, crits for 100, 75% crit rate, this puts you average per hit @ 87, so a RNGs ranged attacks need to do 1575 to keep up. I'm using really, really small numbers here for the NIN, and you can see how absurd it is to even think a RNG could keep up. My NIN is usually around 130 damage for normal hits and 270 crits, which puts my melee average at 235, which means the RNGs melee attacks would need to do 4230 damage each to keep up.

Charismatic

05-01-2011, 12:37 PM

Who said anything about 2.4x damage or anything like that? You said Hi and Jishnu's do about the same damage... Jishnu's Radiance for my friend DOES average about 6kish on most stuff. I just did a dom ops party with him in Altepa tonight and he would one shot dolls 90% of the time. From 6-7k damn near every time. An ISL meant 4 dead dolls within like 30 seconds because sekkanoki, jishnu's, jishnu's, barrage, EES, jishnu's... and the best part is he's not even done with his WS build. I don't care about whatever else you're talking about but Blade: Hi does not do about the same damage as Jishnu's Radiance.

That's just not something you're going to get from Blade: Hi.

wish12oz

05-01-2011, 01:16 PM

wish12oz

05-01-2011, 01:43 PM

Here, I spent 5 min out in altep fighting dolls, I did all of 4 WS's, here they are.
A mithkabob and berserk were my only buffs aside from atma/cruor buffs.
The last weak WS I did with the mob at like 10%, it was only 1 of the 3 hits Hi usually gets, and was to show what a single hit of Hi can do on those weak dolls.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/weakdolls.jpg

With a stalwarts or minuet or chaos roll, any sort of attack buff really, probably even Dia2, would easily push me over into the 6-7k range. Anything else you would like to not prove?

Charismatic

05-01-2011, 02:48 PM

With zerk and food you match the damage he does /SAM, yeah... that proved me wrong in that Blade: Hi is as powerful as Jishnu's Radiance.

wish12oz

05-01-2011, 02:54 PM

With zerk and food you match the damage he does /SAM, yeah... that proved me wrong in that Blade: Hi is as powerful as Jishnu's Radiance.

Smart RNGs always sub SAM?
I fail to see how using the job abilities you always have is cheating. I also doubt he was doing 6-7k every time, completely unbuffed, but then, you could always go take your own SS's and prove it. Go for it, I would love to see it.
And what kind of gimp would be out exping or whatever doing dominion ops without at least cheap food?

Charismatic

05-01-2011, 04:26 PM

And what kind of gimp would be out exping or whatever doing dominion ops without at least cheap food?

Oh, i dunno... probably the kind that oneshots them without it >.>
I'm pretty sure if when you engage an enemy, hit your WS macro... then the enemy dies, without using any food, that using food is irrelevant.

And I never said anything was cheating, stop putting words in my mouth. But yes, you have clearly convinced me that Blade: Hi is as strong as Jishnu's Radiance when the NIN is buffed and the RNG is not. Obviously this puts the weaponskills on equal footing.

wish12oz

05-01-2011, 05:21 PM

Oh, i dunno... probably the kind that oneshots them without it >.>
I'm pretty sure if when you engage an enemy, hit your WS macro... then the enemy dies, without using any food, that using food is irrelevant.

Because you never do anything besides WS. So Only WSing matters.
And you never provided any evidence aside from 'cause i said so' to prove Jishnus does more then 200 damage to those dolls, at least I went out and killed a few of them and took SS's.

And I never said anything was cheating, stop putting words in my mouth. But yes, you have clearly convinced me that Blade: Hi is as strong as Jishnu's Radiance when the NIN is buffed and the RNG is not. Obviously this puts the weaponskills on equal footing.

Cause I'm sure your RNG friend wasn't using hasso, or velocity shot, or cruor buffs, or atmas, or whatever else, so that berserk from my SJ was such a huge buff right? And I'm sorry, I wasn't aware we were dealing with the poor crowd where people cant afford cheap food, and weren't using it while exping. When did not using food while exping become acceptable? When did exping without 2 BRDs or BRD+COR or 2BRDs and a COR become acceptable for that matter......

But anyway~
The point I was making originally was that the WS damage is close enough that a damage comparison between the two is not needed. By what you have said we've established that in 3 WS's without effort or high spikes in damage from TA's or DA's +allhitcrits on my part, I averaged between 0% and 15% lower WS damage then you said your friend was doing with jishnus. And all you did was loleyeballit, which means its probably a much lower average then you think.
And this is exactly the point I was making.
A RNG doing 15% more WS damage than a NIN is not going to save it. The RNG's WS's need to do 2.4x more damage then the NINs for it to matter, because the NIN does 2.4x more WS's then the RNG.
To explain this clearly to you, unless your friend is doing 14k WS's, my NIN would do more overall WS damage then he does after fighting stuff for more then 10 min, and overall damage over time is what matters. Not to mention the fact that in the time it takes for a perfectly geared RNG to shoot once, a NIN gets 18 hits in.....

Greatguardian

05-02-2011, 11:14 AM

Obviously the only real answer is that MNK is better than both NIN and RNG. 7k WS? Pshawwww.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/5cfbf977df1e73ade7c96059426e9204.jpg

Also, not using Red Curry Buns fulltime (or at least Bison Steak on trash mobs) when they're 40k/stack (6k/3hr food for steak) and you (read: your friend) have an Empyrean Weapon is just insulting to the bow.

Charismatic

05-05-2011, 01:23 PM

I don't see how not using food when it's not doing much of anything for you is an insult to anything. If you're one shotting without food, how is it an insult not to use it?
You guys make no sense.

wish12oz

05-05-2011, 04:04 PM

I don't see how not using food when it's not doing much of anything for you is an insult to anything. If you're one shotting without food....

He most likely was not 1 shotting them with WS's, and you do stuff other then WS....
Like shoot arrows to gain TP, or barrage, or.... whateverelseRNGdoes.....

It's nice of you to not argue that RNG does more damage then NIN anymore too, glad to see you can handle math.

axlzero

05-28-2011, 07:18 AM

wish12oz

05-29-2011, 01:11 AM

why not give ninja throwing weapons that stack to 99 and give status effects to target? Or can do elemental damage even better a ninja can use elemental spells combined with a throwing weapon to do massive damage burst. another option is improve sange and overhaul it

I'm assuming you didn't read the thread, because well, I wouldnt read it either.
And the answer is simply because even if you did that, it would still not be useful enough to actually use.
You have to make the damage so broken it's not even realistic for it to be done to fix the problems with throwing at lvl 90, and we're not even at the new cap yet. The simple truth is that unless they let throwing be affected by haste, it will never be worth using. If you think this is wrong, here's the math for why throwing is so terrible, propose ideas to make it useful when you understand this:

Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Also: we have slow and blind, the rest isn't really really useful, and if new enfeebling spells are added they should go to RDM.

Glamdring

05-29-2011, 03:26 AM

I'm actually on board with Akujima on this issue. I simply never understand why you would ignore a tool available to you, regardless of the job. I'll be clear, my ninja is 49 and it will remain there until my last job leveled, something about loathing the job almost as much as I loathe genocidal maniacs, but I digress. The point is, my throwing is well beyond the 49 ninja cap, my ninjitsu is at the 49 ninja cap, I think my parry is just above the 49 ninja cap, katana is at the 49 cap, evasion was already capped. I actively used throwing, the wheel, etc. to keep those skills up. Why? Were they particularily useful? No. Was it required? Only by me. Do they come in handy on occasion? Hell yes. Same is true on all of my other jobs.

See, all skill is absolutely useless... until you need it, and then it's too late to get it. So it is advisable to use what you have every chance you get to keep it up, so that it is already there when you really need it. That's why so many people complain about parry, guard and shield (if you aren't a paladin), because even if you try to use them, they aren't there. How many times have you heard your Blm complain that their enfeebling or whatever is gimpped when they can't land a specific debuff? Like I said, you need it when you need it. You especially need it in this day and age of trying to !! proc off a sub-job skill when low-manning ___.

To be sure, not all skills are gonna be all that useful, ex. rdm has a ranged attack skill, but the only time a rdm would realisticly use it is to pull in an area where magic would get aggroed, and you don't need to hit to claim with ranged, the other possibility being if they chance upon Ixion. Some abilities are only gotten through merits, and you may not have enough to get everything, again rdm spells come to mind. For the most part however there is a reason to get and use skills.

Ranged attack, since that's what we are discussing here... OK, I'll admit, none of my ranged attack is at capped (I'll be leveling ranger soon, so I expect that to change), and my throwing is higher than my marksmanship. My 90 thief can use all 3 ranged options, but only throwing sees much use. Does it do alot? no. It hits quite a bit tho', gives me a good chunk of TP when it does, and since I love my jinx discus it has a handy added effect, cursing my enemy-handy in this day and age of "to hell with hate control" since it makes it take longer to chase down the hate-happy mages when they pull the mob outta the DD/tank pit. To be sure, I could use X-bow status bolts to effect as well, but I'm gonna skill throwing on my thief and dancer, I'll get marksmanship doing my ranger since I'm more likely to hit and ammo is not free.

Now, Sange... well here's where you are gonna run into a debate. At least prior to Aby a ninja's best friend was his shadows, look up sange and see what it does to your shadows. Maybe we don't care anymore, but it's awfully hard to shake an 8-year reflexive mindset; sue me, but I want my shadows. Second, I'm pretty sure Sange only works with consumed throwing weaps, and at upper levels those cost a fortune... when you can find any. Lastly, sange is a trade off with other things you need to spend merits to get, and you need to decide what kind of ninja you are as to where you spend those, so it's your choice.

That being said, Sange is certainly NOT useless. Shuriken can do alot of damage, pick a fight with a yag ninja, you aren't getting hit for 0 there. Your returnable weaps generally don't do as much damage as shuriken, and I don't believe they work with Sange. They still do something. If you have ready access to a steady supply of shuriken I might seriously consider it. But even without Sange I'd be tossing those things when I had the chance in my activity cycle, they can do alot of damage... in skilled hands.

Am I the only one who's ever watched themself on screen start a ranged attack, whack the mob with a melee attack, then finish using the ranged attack? (I've done the same thing casting, too). Seems using ranged damage is not automatically forfeiting doing melee damage.

wish12oz

05-29-2011, 03:47 AM

I'm actually on board with Akujima on this issue. I simply never understand why you would ignore a tool available to you, regardless of the job.

You ignore it because it's useless.
Do RDMs with Slow2 cast slow1? No, unless you're really not intelligent. Throwing is in the same boat.

I'll be clear, my ninja is 49. I actively used throwing, the wheel, etc. to keep those skills up. Why? Were they particularily useful? No. Was it required? Only by me. Do they come in handy on occasion? Hell yes. Same is true on all of my other jobs.

Actually, at this level, and previous levels, and for a few more upcoming levels, throwing is good, in fact it's so good, it's better then anything else you could possibly do. It doesn't become bad until you and other melees, gain access to more haste, dual wield, and better damage katanas.

I talked for 3 paragraphs about how I keep my skills capped

Good for you, that has nothing to do with why throwing is useless.

Now, Sange... well here's where you are gonna run into a debate. At least prior to Aby a ninja's best friend was his shadows, look up sange and see what it does to your shadows. Maybe we don't care anymore, but it's awfully hard to shake an 8-year reflexive mindset; sue me, but I want my shadows. Second, I'm pretty sure Sange only works with consumed throwing weaps, and at upper levels those cost a fortune... when you can find any. Lastly, sange is a trade off with other things you need to spend merits to get, and you need to decide what kind of ninja you are as to where you spend those, so it's your choice.

That being said, Sange is certainly NOT useless. Shuriken can do alot of damage, pick a fight with a yag ninja, you aren't getting hit for 0 there. Your returnable weaps generally don't do as much damage as shuriken, and I don't believe they work with Sange. They still do something.

We went over this before, apparently you missed it. Using sange takes your shadows, and takes away time from doing melee damage, by using the job ability, and recasting shadows. These actions make you miss between 3 and 8 attack rounds worth of TP and damage, and guess what! Sange doesn't do more damage or gain more tp then 3 attack rounds, and that's the low end of what you miss out on, thus making it useless.

This is why you should learn how stuff works before you try and talk about it, so you don't say incorrect information and get called on it. It's earlier in the thread if you want to go look for it "Mr I don't even have ninja at 75 and have no idea what I am talking about."

Am I the only one who's ever watched themself on screen start a ranged attack, whack the mob with a melee attack, then finish using the ranged attack? (I've done the same thing casting, too). Seems using ranged damage is not automatically forfeiting doing melee damage.

Game animations do not indicate how the game works. For instance right here, doing ranged attacks actually stops you from being able to do melee attacks, so does using JA's and WS's and casting anything. Learn game mechanics before you decide what is good or bad and try to pass stuff off as useful.

And the last thing we need on these forums is more bad, incorrect information about game mechanics,
YOU CAN NOT MAKE NEW MELEE ATTACKS WHILE THROWING.
What you saw was animations from attacks that already occurred.

Bulrogg

05-29-2011, 04:09 AM

wish12oz

05-29-2011, 04:29 AM

While throwing isn't for the elitist mainstream players, I know that others including myself could find use for throwing attacks that also offer enfeeblement that we do not have access to in the role of NIN. It could a new item similar to Angon and have the chance to inflict the target with Amnesia, Demi, Gravity and Terror depending on resist.

The problem here is that if the update to throwing is not useful, no one will use it except for the really bad players, or Naruto RPers. And if it's not useful to most of the people who play the job, it's a waste of SE's time and they should of been working on something else.

I'm also hoping for an adjustment/update to Sange, it really needs to allow for Crits to be included in the damage calculation.

Abilities that do damage need to do more damage then meleeing or they're not worth doing. Even if Sange was all crit hits, and you had shurikens that cost 1 gil and had 300 base damage, Sange wouldn't be worth using.

I'd also like to see a Shurikenjutsu that cast an actual barrage of shuriken at the mob.

Believe it!

Nacht

05-29-2011, 08:56 AM

But I have to become the ultimate ninja

Karbuncle

05-29-2011, 09:01 AM

If you play your job right, You're an elitist. Heard it here first. BELIEVE IT!

Why was this thread bumped :(?

On topic, Read back to any of my posts that offer suggestions, They're better than all of yours! (NYEH NYEH!) and even they would be border-line breaking the game. While I would accept a change to throwing that some how made it viable without nerfing Dual Wield or haste, The problem is, that level of Throwing buff would require literally either a complete overhaul of throwing, or adding Shuriken with DMG somewhere around 999 and a Delay of 1 that give 50tp a throw.

Nacht

05-31-2011, 03:26 PM

Why was this thread bumped :(?

I don't think the thread ever died. There's always been at least one or so post a day since the thread was started.

Akujima

06-01-2011, 04:36 AM

If you play your job right, You're an elitist. Heard it here first. BELIEVE IT!

No. But if you persistently go out of your way to bash people with childish Naruto insults, because their feelings about how a job should be developed in a role-playing game interferes with your bandwagon job list, then yes, it is a symptom of elitism.

Wish12oz, GG and other like minded people never gave a crap about NIN before it got a major boost in DMG capabilities. The simple fact is that elitists jump ship to the next bandwagon job the moment it becomes available. The only reason they're in here, is because they don't want NIN to be changed, effectively forcing them to abandon ship and cling to another job that is more "uber".

Wanna know why my threads are gigantic? Because the topics strike the very core of the reader, forcing them to either give up or put up a struggle, to save their most cherished beliefs.

Karbuncle

06-01-2011, 05:00 AM

Both sides hold their beliefs dear, as you do. Is it so wrong to want a job not to be nerfed so you can continue to enjoy it?

Criticizing one side of the argument because their beliefs are different, accusing them of bandwagon'ing (I'm pretty sure 12oz has been a NIN for a long while) Is far worse than them sticking up for what they believe and their math.

And an "Elitist" doesn't job to one job to the other when it comes into light. "Elitists" I consider a compliment, because it perfectly describes someone who has geared and played their job to their best ability.

Why people think its an insult is beyond me.

Greatguardian

06-01-2011, 05:00 AM

Because I totally haven't had NIN75 for yeeeeears. Anyone who plays their job the most effective way in a group setting where performance impacts other people must be a bandwagontard. That makes so much sense.

Your threads are gigantic because you are unbelievably dense and never actually read what anyone else writes, replying with buzzword banter, youtube links, and +1's to any posts longer than 10 words that agree with you, even if you didn't read or understand those either.

Stay consistent for once and stick to your crappy PvP thread.

Akujima

06-01-2011, 05:26 AM

Your threads are gigantic because you are unbelievably dense and never actually read what anyone else writes, replying with buzzword banter, youtube links, and +1's to any posts longer than 10 words that agree with you, even if you didn't read or understand those either.

Stay consistent for once and stick to your crappy PvP thread.

I'm still waiting for you to make a thread that get's any thumbs up. Let alone have the guts to make one.

Karbuncle

06-01-2011, 06:23 AM

Making a Useless thread has nothing to do with the content of a persons posts or the legitimacy of their argument.

wish12oz

06-01-2011, 08:49 AM

Wish12oz, GG and other like minded people never gave a crap about NIN before it got a major boost in DMG capabilities. The simple fact is that elitists jump ship to the next bandwagon job the moment it becomes available. The only reason they're in here, is because they don't want NIN to be changed, effectively forcing them to abandon ship and cling to another job that is more "uber".

I started leveling ninja in 2004, and was 75 in 2005, how about you?

But you're right, the moment ninja became a subpar useless POS job, I couldn't play it anymore because it was a waste of space and that goes against what I consider fun in this game. So in an effort to prevent it from becoming junk again, I will post about how terrible every idea people propose here that is bad so that at least if SE implements one of them, I will know I at least have put in effort to keep my favorite job from becoming crap again.

The last thing I want is an update like we got with yonin and innin. 2 abilities that at the time were so completely useless they made me scream with rage. Ininn is still completely useless too, and yonin is only good inside abyssea because the -acc doesnt hurt you. But the real problem was that SE thought they fixed ninja and made it awasome when they added these abilities. We DO NOT need a repeat of this, with SE adding some BS new throwing JA and shiurikens and thinking ninja is suddenly better then it use to be again. But theres a very small minority of players who just don't get this, probably because you weren't even around when ninja was good, and didn't have to sit and suffer through the years it was terrible.

Now go away with your tired rhetoric that doesn't apply to the discussion, you've contributed nothing worthwhile to this or any other discussion involving the job.