THF and DNC

[RaenRyong]

I know this sounds like a QQ thread and it is in a way. It's moreso that I would like a developer response, and since it deals with two jobs I don't think it belongs in either of the separate job forums.

This thread is not just "QQ over THF" but it also addresses problems with DNC. I am a fan of both jobs and would like them both improved. I will speak mostly regarding THF since I am and have been a passionate THF for a decently long time and my love of DNC is mainly from playing with good ones and not playing the job myself.

SE always seems to fear THF as a DD. Where they are happy to throw DD buffs and incredible power (see: Ukko's Fury, Victory Smite etc) at already extremely strong DDs, they are extremely hesitant buffing THF, often adding utility tools at best (doesn't help that they're often useless too - see Despoil).

Any career THF's greatest hate is the feeling that they are essentially there to contribute Treasure Hunter and nothing else. With the advent of great Atma and the general power of the 1handed DD in Abyssea, this has greatly diminished but as we move outside that realm once again I have some doubts that it may return. I would like to bring up the following:

Dual Wield: DNC was given high native Dual Wield and THF was not. Along with DNC's other DD advantages (Saber Dance, more Dual Wield gear) there is a considerable difference between a DNC and a THF's DD ability. This is silly when you consider the fact that DNC provides a level of support and a BRD-esque Haste buff while eclipsing THF's damage output. Instead of nerfing DNC's, I would propose that THF and DNC be given equal Dual Wield with NIN having one tier above.

Another large problem with THF is that it is largely passive. DNC has Violent Flourish and (although much weaker) Animated Flourish which allows it to control the course of a battle and/or get attention quickly if necessary. THF is forced to either hope Accomplice/Collaborator do something or melee for damage and although many jobs do not have a source of Stun and so perhaps THF does not deserve one, one should never underestimate the power of a Stun ability. Although I lack a suggestion, it would be useful if THF had some method of controlling a battle if it goes downhill quickly.

Speaking of abilities, THF has no defensive JA. We basically stick on Evasion (which is very nice, don't get me wrong - but an 80% upper cap is a bit restrictive; maybe raise that, even if only specifically for THF?) and hope for the best. DNC has the aforementioned Stun, high evasion, Fan Dance for extreme PDT and cures on top of that. It would be greatly appreciated if THF had something like "Perfect Evade", similar to how MNK gained "Perfect Counter" recently (although I'd like to re-emphasise - 80% as an upper cap is quite low (by design?)).

Finally, critical hits. You have recently been giving THF a Critical Damage Bonus trait, which I approve of and feel is a very good way to improve the job. However, you've then given (I'm only mentioning those you would use in a top-end gearset, and only those THF cannot use);

Kamome - NIN: +10% crit damage
Iga Eramaki - NIN: +2% crit damage
Charis Feather - DNC: +5% crit damage
Ravager's Calligae +2 - WAR: +10% crit damage
Lancer's Cuissots +2 - DRG: +10% crit damage ~ but since this is WS gear only, I will ignore it.

THF and DNC both have +8% at max level, meaning

NIN has 4% more than THF
DNC has 5% more than THF
WAR has 2% more than THF (WAR has +5%, and then -5% for the Loki's Kaftan difference).

This just increases the gap in damage between these jobs. If you want THF to be an expert at critical hits (which I would say is a good way of buffing THF, given SA and TA along with low Attack which needs criticals to increase damage significantly), please make us experts at critical hits. Another trait or two would be very welcome.

Now a quick note on DNC's behalf: shared Waltz timers have to go. DNC as a healer is pretty crippled at the moment because of the obscene Waltz timers, all sharing the same timer. Perhaps if not individual, at least separate them into Waltz(healing) and Waltz(statuscure) or something similar.

Yes I know, long boring QQ thread. I just wish to bring these matters to the attention of the dev team, and so thought to compile them here. My intention is not to make THF this unstoppable titan of damage, but instead to firstly not feel inferior to DNC in all ways but Treasure Hunter and secondly to feel like I am honestly contributing something great to a fight. That if a given mob did NOT need Treasure Hunter, people would still be happy to have me along. Feel free to leave comments etc.

[Karbuncle]

I don't wanna add too much cause if i do I will probably beging to turn this into a QQTHF Thread. Cause we're F*cked three ways to friday in almost every way compared to other jobs.

Except we have treasure hunter.

Should also Bring up Blood Rage and Impetus, Which increase Critical hit Rate and Damage(AF3 body for MNK) for WAR and MNK. while THF Got......... Conspirator. Acc and Subtle Blow. yup. Oh and it doesn't work on the tank.

YUP

THANK YOU SE! I LOVE ABILITIES THAT DONT WORK WHEN I LOW MAN OR SOLO! You know, SA, TA, Despoil/mug(dont work on NMs in abyssea), Conspirator, Hide(doesnt work on NMs)

Next update, Why don't you get MNK and WAR dual Wield V. Oh, and maybe give them an ability that lets their DEX and AGI be added to their weapon and force a critical. MNK and WAR need that too.

Anyway, i agree with your post.I'm done QQ'ing

[katiekat]

while i am not a thf i do think walzs do need to be broken up up it is frustrating to have to wate 30 sec to heal my self or sumone els and i end up eating more tools that way.

i would like to point out how THF has a higher dagger skill then DNC

[Aliekber]

Maybe they could continue the !! proc system (it's a great addition, and I hope to see it in many new events to come) outside of Abyssea to include a THF-only TH-boost !!. Make it so it can only be procced during certain windows of the mob's life, by SATAing the right WS or something. That way, at least when THFs are asked to come TH, it will let them contribute more than just equipping TK and smacking the mob as much as they can to proc TH3 more.

I don't know if that's something THFs would actually want, but just throwing it out there. More DD power (i.e. buffing Rudra's Storm) wouldn't hurt, either.

[CrystalWeapon]

They do have "Job Adjustments" listed for the May and June updates. Neither of these see a rise in the level cap so maybe thf will catch a break and see an increase in it's native dual weild trait.

[Karbuncle]

while i am not a thf i do think walzs do need to be broken up up it is frustrating to have to wate 30 sec to heal my self or sumone els and i end up eating more tools that way.

i would like to point out how THF has a higher dagger skill then DNC

Very true!
but its by a Minuscule amount. Which DNC makes up for with Accuracy Bonus Job traits to actually have more base accuracy than THF, However they do fall behind in attack by a ~few points. Which they more than make up for having Dual wield IV.

[Anethia]

while i am not a thf i do think walzs do need to be broken up up it is frustrating to have to wate 30 sec to heal my self or sumone els and i end up eating more tools that way.

i would like to point out how THF has a higher dagger skill then DNC

Let's not forget native triple attack, gear that enhances triple attack (Homam, AF3+1, and the triplus dagger epona's (if you can get it)) can equip pretty much all of the same accessories that a dnc can equip to improve TP gain (brutal earring, twilight belt, aurore set, raperre harness, atheling mantel, epona's ring, etc), and crazy high evasion and gear that enhances that too.


Not gonna disagree on separate waltz timers though. But I can see why SE did it. They didn't want dnc to take the place of a dedicated healer. It was never designed to be a main healer. DNC is my favorite job, I do anything and everything I can to improve how I play the job. I would like to see separate waltz timers as well.

As for fan dance and saber dance those abilities are strictly situational. Saber dance effect diminishes 10% every minute over the course of 5 minutes, beginning at 50% during the first, ending at 10% during the last. With VV and Apoc atma saber dance is almost unneeded inside abbyssea. Fan dance is a diminishing effect per hit taken. So taking a lot of hits with no shadows up will render fan dance useless in just a couple of minutes.

[Byrth]

Crit damage: WAR also has 8% from trait so it's actually net +5% for them. If you're including Kaftan, most Dancers shouldn't wear it in anything but capped-haste situations due to our AF3+2 body.

Dual wield: Dancer only has 5% more Dual Wield than Thief from traits, but our AF3+2 body is 10%. Our neck is matched by your boomerang, and we both get Suppa. The gear inequality is much larger than the trait inequality in this case, especially because we generally sub NIN anyway.

Saber Dance: Saber Dance (20% DA with 5/5 merits) is basically matched by Thief's 10% Triple Attack (5% base + 5/5 merits). Saber Dance is actually a little worse because it replaces job trait Double Attack from /WAR, which makes our native Dual Wield a little less important.

Haste Samba, a ton of STP, and Waltzes vs. SA, TA, TH, and marginally higher dagger and evasion skill <-- situational, but Haste samba and STP probably wins from a damage perspective.


People always say that SE neglects Thief. They want Thief to be for TH only. etc, etc. I absolutely think the opposite. SE initially based their entire battle system around Thief's Trick Attack. They created a handful of jobs capable of tanking and several jobs capable of briefly taking hate (through SA or TA) and surviving an attack round or two. Third Eye (and the stupid far-eastern defensive gear), Utsusemi, Super Jump, Counter/Counterstance. All not meant for permanent tanking in a Refreshless release-world with a paucity of Haste gear. The idea is that Thief briefly shifts hate around in the party to facilitate damage spikes. I'm sure many of us can remember a time when the game actually worked like this, and a THF with SATA Viper Bite was king (mostly because it doubled Attack, though we didn't realize it at the time).

Obvious problem is that the game hasn't worked this way in half a decade. I've entered and graduated college since the game worked this way. SE still hasn't come around, and gives Thief crappy unstacked WSs like Rudra's Storm.

Overall I would say that, while Ryan and Krab here (lol) would like Thief to balanced in terms of the DD hierarchy, SE is trying to balance the jobs in terms of desirability. Even though Dancer is a much better DD than Thief, they're less desired at the moment because they don't have TH. Treasure Hunter is a hugely desired job trait, and because Thief has it they don't need the DD advantages the other jobs need to see use.

[katiekat]

i also think and maybe its just me but does anyone else think DNC should get a different WS on twashtar? it seams like that WS only really does a lot of dmg w with SA or TA on it

[RaenRyong]

Crit damage: WAR also has 8% from trait so it's actually net +5% for them. If you're including Kaftan, most Dancers shouldn't wear it in anything but capped-haste situations due to our AF3+2 body.

I wasn't aware the WAR one increased to 8%; thanks for the correction. I also made a foolish oversight there with respect to the DNC body.


Dual wield: Dancer only has 5% more Dual Wield than Thief from traits, but our AF3+2 body is 10%. Our neck is matched by your boomerang, and we both get Suppa. The gear inequality is much larger than the trait inequality in this case, especially because we generally sub NIN anyway.

Yeah, 15% DW is one hell of a difference in situations where you're not hitting the delay reduction cap :x


Saber Dance: Saber Dance (20% DA with 5/5 merits) is basically matched by Thief's 10% Triple Attack (5% base + 5/5 merits). Saber Dance is actually a little worse because it replaces job trait Double Attack from /WAR, which makes our native Dual Wield a little less important.

Ah, it's down to 20% and replaces DA trait? I wasn't aware that it was that weak - I obviously haven't kept up to date on latest thingies.


Haste Samba, a ton of STP, and Waltzes vs. SA, TA, TH, and marginally higher dagger and evasion skill <-- situational, but Haste samba and STP probably wins from a damage perspective.

Also worthwhile noting that DNC can sub WAR for damage whereas if THF does this, it'll lose even more Dual Wield, giving DNC Berserk/Aggressor/10% DA trait (though this was covered somewhat in the Saber Dance discussion) or 10% more DW in favour of it.


Overall I would say that, while Ryan and Krab here (lol) would like Thief to balanced in terms of the DD hierarchy, SE is trying to balance the jobs in terms of desirability. Even though Dancer is a much better DD than Thief, they're less desired at the moment because they don't have TH. Treasure Hunter is a hugely desired job trait, and because Thief has it they don't need the DD advantages the other jobs need to see use.

I would agree with your logic here, but would contest that it is not the best way to balance the game. I hate feeling like I am just around because of a job trait and doomed to constantly have stuff thrown at all other jobs but mine. If a job came out which doubled droprates say in a theoretical world but was incredibly boring and useless except from that one ability, it would be desired. However, it would be very boring for the player - while it may make logical sense to keep it that way because the desirability remains relatively unchanged, I feel that in terms of making an overall enjoyable playing experience that this is not the best way (though of course this is an exaggeration).

I'm glad you responded since you're one of those very good DNCs whose opinion I value greatly!

[Olor]

I agree that thf gets the short end of the DD stick, but it has so much "utility" in other ways it is difficult to decide whether things are balanced or not... I mean being able to pick coffers may be situational - but that is a pretty darn useful ability, right there. So I wonder if the reason THF is held on the lower end of the DD pack is because it has so many other desirable abilities that SE thought not being a top tier DD was a fair trade off?

[Khajit]

Perhaps some sort of a damage buff for thf based on how high the TH on a mob currently is?

[Jski]

What you want more dmg? Any job can seem to pull ok dmg with atmas, I think the issues should be more of ability to stagger then any thing else. Just be happily that TH is something ppl need still unlike the other 14 jobs that have comply belly up.

[katiekat]

the only way thos other jobs went belly up is if you low man abyssea it least here on Shiva we have quite a few ls's that do runs with 12-18 members mine does we like doing it as a group and thus do it as a group.

[Byrth]

Yeah, as far as I can tell, Saber Dance is 25% (per hand) in the first minute, 20% (per hand) in the second minute, etc. I don't know where the 50%/40%/30%/20%/10% numbers came from, but I assume it was poor translation of JP testing on a per-round basis (Dual wield). If you're 5/5 and average 25/20/15%, you end up with 20% DA. 10% TA ~= 20% DA, so it's kind of a wash and strips us of our Waltz ability... which I should have removed from the left half of the lower inequality.

15% DW is a gigantic increase in damage in non-delay capped situations, which is every situation for THF except for when DNC+BRD are buffers.

Whether it's fair or not to balance the game relative to desirability, I'm not sure. I do know that I definitely would have spent a lot less time playing and gearing Dancer if it hadn't gotten the big boosts around Abyssea release (and if I hadn't found a group that decided they wanted me on Dancer all the time). Even with the boosts and our Thief-crushing damage (lol?), it's hard to argue Dancer is sought-after these days. NIN/DNC is very competitive for solo, has a lot more proc options, and has high Dual Wield as well.

You only reap the benefits of your gear-collection efforts when you play the job that can wear the gear. Any effort you spend gearing Thief is probably wisely spent, because you're likely to play the job and benefit from the effort you spent. Regardless of how much you like being seen as a job trait whore, the odds of anyone else getting higher Treasure Hunter is pretty much nil. You'll always be playing Thief, because Treasure Hunter will always be needed at certain events. Even if your damage is low, the time you spent gearing Thief won't be wasted.

Effort I spend gearing Dancer gear is currently moderately useful (people tolerate me coming Dancer about half the time, largely as a result of the effort I've spent making it awesome). It wouldn't take much for Dancer to lose the advantage of Haste Samba, and I predict that they will definitely lose it at some point in the future. A third tier of March, a RDM-only Haste 2 spell, something will come up that makes Samba nearly-irrelevant, or at least irrelevant enough that another job (like Thief) could sub Dancer and provide it. Long-term, Dancer's niche is in severe jeopardy, while Thief's is secure. Perhaps SE is preparing us for the inevitable drop in usefulness by giving us a quasi-DD role.

Edit: I suppose that was unclear. I meant that to be an argument for desirability balancing vs. damage balancing. Balancing desirability makes sure people waste less of their time gearing undesirable jobs.

PS. Aw shucks thanks~! >^,^<

[Frost]

Not going to jump in here and rail on people as per usual in these kinds of threads. Thief and Dancer both possess levels of utility that far outweigh the DD output of well... DDs... The other DDs are kind of one trick ponies when it comes to playing, and these arguments are kind of narrow in scope.

My dancer can solo Durinn from gathering pop items, to killing the key item NMs (Div-e Sepid, Dvalinn, Kadraeth the Hatespawn) to Durinn himself. With the exception of one, maybe two, of those NMs, I can't do that on any of my other jobs. Thief could do more, but lacks cures to bring it to completion. So between the two, I'm sacrificing cures for Treasure Hunter, and none of my other jobs have the balance of evasion to DD that either thief or dancer has save for Ninja. And my ninja trades a little bit of DD potential and evasion for spell interrupt, more shadows, enfeebles, and the ability to trigger red, as well as the ability to sub dancer and get 'just enough' cures; but no TH. Headed up the line further, once you add one healer to the equation, everything goes nuts. Thief can drop some evade gear for more DD potential, Dancers can drop evasion and cures in lieu of more weaponskills and such, Ninjas can sub war and gain access to more DD potential and even more triggers, and you can add other jobs to the equation, like Mnk, War, Sam, etc.

In a exp party situation, I find the argument to be lost. Half the group or more is underleveld to be at max potential, and mobs die so fast that it doesn't even matter who's killing what and how.

In NM/HNM situations, Thieves either step back from their soloing position or advance it to tanking. Either you back up and support the group balancing hate and providing TH, or you're in the mobs' faces building hate. Dancers aren't very far off. Mnks do it, obviously better/faster, but require a tiny bit more support to do so, so the tradeoff is more than worth it, war too etc.


The point I am rambling on about is that we're experiencing actual game balance right now. Some jobs shine in a broad range of aspects, but still not as bright as jobs that excel in any one of those facets specifically. Thief and Dancer are far from back-seat here. I'd go so far as to say Thieves' TH is their greatest ability if anything just to guarantee a slot in the alliance. And Dancers' ability to provide 'the third haste' while adding cures and debuffs no other jobs can, makes dancers' deficiencies more a matter of other peoples' perspectives and level of knowledge of the job than anything.

And while i agree that thief kind of got mildly shafted on their Empyrean weapon's weaponskill, it DOES stack with SA/TA, as do all thief WS that are useful. But like with everything on the job, it's a B+ at best, but... that's with EVERYTHING with the job. We don't have the A+ abilities(save for TH) and the D's in others, everything is pretty B- to B+ where it counts. And I agree that Dancers' usefulness could raise tenfold if the waltz timers were split, or at the least were given an AoE debuff removal like Blus got.

[katiekat]

i onistely think DNC needs a seprit ws for emprin dagger

[Atomic_Skull]

How to fix THF:

A+ dagger

Attack Bonus I through III

Cut Sneak Attack and Trick Attack timers in half for THF main.

Adjust Sneak Attack so that it deals reduced damage when attacking from the side (being in front still causes it to fail)

Adjust Trick Attack so when used together with Sneak Attack being behind another character counts as being behind the monster (you are out of it's sight after all).

Triple Attack II at 75 and Triple Attack III at 95. +5% each. Also raise Triple Attack I to a base 10%.

[Arcon]

I'm one of the few main THFs who think THF should not get a damage boost. THF to me is a utility job, same as DNC although with different purposes. As was mentioned before, THF should be able to manipulate the course of the battle in some other way than just by Accollaborator and Trick Attack, that is what I would like to see in a thief.

Maybe it's just me, I'm really annoyed by this huge boost in pretty much everything in the recent updates (FFXI has lost a lot of the fine tuning that went into it at 75, where every single MP mattered), but imo DNC should be nerfed in terms of damage. I like to look at it from an role-playing point of view, and think about it... dancers? Why would dancers do good damage in a battle? It makes no sense whatsoever to me. A dancer sounds more like a backline job to me, and thus I think its current damage output is ridiculous. However, both fast movements and dexterity sound fitting for a dancer, so delay and accuracy should remain. I think dancers should be severely limited in the daggers they are able to wield, either that or give them way lower skill, but higher tiers of Accuracy Bonus (although they already are at a very high tier, but this is the best thing I can come up with). Also, Fan Dance is ridiculous, why would a dancer be able to take any kind of damage head on? Evasion I can understand, but this not at all. Especially coupled with their healing abilities they are already overpowered with respect to tanking.

Thieves have a bonus most people haven't mentioned when it comes to general tanking, higher evasion. And not just a bit, but at least 30 evasion on dancers (with capped Closed Position merits, 45 difference without). And with Raider's Poulaines +2 they get almost 20 more evasion just in that slot. That requires them to cast way less shadows, or sacrifice less other DD gear for Evasion, giving them a slight edge in that regard.

Sadly overall dancers would still win in terms of damage, and call me whining, but that doesn't really make sense. Not even from a balance point of view, but as I mentioned, from a role-playing view. But again, maybe it's just me, I think the entire game needs to be taken down a notch. Nerf DNC, nerf some DDs or Empyrean WSs, fix enmity calculations (I'll post an idea about this later) and the game will be treated to some balance again. But let's see what the next update brings, maybe SE already has something in the works. There's some really good suggestions on these forums, unfortunately also a lot of junk. I hope they still make an effort to go through this to find the good stuff.

[Eeek]

DNC, and dagger jobs in general, are the last DD jobs that need to see any nerfs. After nearly a year of fun and usefulness, all THFs and DNCs will be shocked back to cold reality when we step outside Abyssea. We'll be banished back to the Mog House only to emerge and occasionally poke an NM or two with our Thief's Knife, Assassin's Armlets, and Raider's Poulaines +2.

I agree completely with RaenRyong, and I believe that THF could desperately use some tweaks. Atma of the Razed Ruins, Atma of the Gnarled Horn, and Atma of the Apocalypse combined essentially 'fixed' THF (and DNC), and it would be nice if some of those boosts were permanently rolled into THF. Aside from TH and enmity shifting, THF should be the king of critical hits. But we're not. We're the king of standing around bored.

I don't want overpower THF to the point where it becomes the next SAM, MNK, or WAR, but we'd appreciate the opportunity to actually play the job we enjoy rather than poke a mob once for TH, put on our dunce hat, and go sit in the corner. THF could really use more boosts to Critical Attack Rate, Critical Attack Bonus Damage, and at least one more tier of the Triple Attack Job Trait. THF's current JAs, with the exception of Collaborator/Accomplice, are too passive to make any substantive difference during the course of battle.

[Byrth]

I personally think Thief has three main problems:

1) SE dramatically overestimates the frequency with which you can land SA and TA in an 80% Haste environment with even only 3 DDs, and they also dramatically overestimate the benefit of landing SA and TA. When I look at the WSs and gear they give Thief, I become more and more sure that they're assuming almost every WS THF does is stacked with SA or TA. Realistically, Thief seems to use these JAs about half as often as they theoretically could because situations that encourage one tend to discourage the other. Also, THF with Haste gear and magic Haste TPs dramatically faster than SA and TA timers can support, even assuming capped merits and no positioning problems.

TAing in Dynamis, easy! Plenty of people hitting the monster so one is bound to stay in front of you.
SAing in Dynamis, hard. The monster is spinning.

TAing when lowmanning with a second DD, easy! Just run behind him and WS!
SAing when lowmanning with a second DD, hard! It's a minute into the fight,t so you both capped Enmity already and the monster is just spinning.

Look at Torcleaver (4.5 fTP, 60% VIT) and Tachi: Fudo (3.65 fTP, 60% STR) and compare them to Rudra's (3.25 fTP, 60% DEX). Those are non-crit Empyrean WSs for 2H weapons with more than twice the base damage of Twashtar. Torcleaver's mod is a laugh, but its fTP and base damage wreck us. If Dagger got a comparable non-crit WS, it would not be a shade under 6 fTP to compensate for the base damage. The problem, of course, is that Thieves (and Dancers) can already get lucky and pull off 5-6k Rudra's when our Crit-forcing JAs work. If they essentially doubled the fTP to make it useful when it's not stacked, we'd be doing 10-12k Rudra's when we get lucky using our crit-forcing JAs.

Now compare it to Blade: Hi (4 fTP, 60% AGI, crits). This is what makes me think they're assuming THF holds TP for SA or TA to be up. In order for Rudra's to be better than a 0-crit Hi, it has to be stacked or nearing 200 TP. Then again, they could just not be thinking at all. I mean, look at Camlann's Torment. Still much better damage than unstacked Rudra's, but it would make me pity Dragoon if they didn't have access to Drakesbane.

2) The enmity system is actually a big part of Thief's DD problem, because I feel SE wants to avoid giving them the ability to instantly cap someone's VE and CE in one WS (~6600 damage). If they gave Dagger a comparable WS to Tachi: Fudo, THF could easily do thousands of damage on anything from the front and give all the enmity to someone who was just hate-reset. I think SE wants to avoid making their hate-moving JAs too powerful, not that it matters in the current state of play.

Enmity fix would be easy. Either increase the cap by a factor of 5 or decrease the enmity of all actions by a factor of 5. Then further halve the enmity generated by doing damage. No one has to struggle to keep hate off the mages right now even if they're spamming Cure 4, because we do so much more damage than we cure HP. Make it harder to hold hate through damage, problem solved.

3) The final problem for Thief at the moment is just the state of the game. Abyssea has eliminated HNMs that are 20 levels above us. Mercy Stroke, for instance, used to be mediocre to good in merit parties. It really shined on HNMs though, because forcing a crit on something with a lot of Defense or a much higher level than you is much more important than doing so on a trash merit monster. SE is possibly trying to avoid giving the only job that can evade really high level monsters the best tools to damage them. I think this is likely also why Thief doesn't have native Subtle Blow, to make them a less viable tank for high level stuff.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

This is silly when you consider the fact that DNC provides a level of support and a BRD-esque Haste buff while eclipsing THF's damage output.

They have to spend TP to provide that support, which means they're not spending that TP on damage. They also have no native Triple Attack so they get less TP in the first place (assuming equal gear/SJ).

Is it just me, or are you also completely ignoring THF's two biggest sources of damage, SA and TA? There's no way a DNC can match that damage output with similar gear. Flourishes not only cost TP to set up, their effect isn't as strong. Main job SA and TA are damage monsters (they also make THF benefit more from +crit than any other job, by getting guaranteed crits).

ISTM that if THF has a problem it is soloing and some lowman situations. Some of their abilities are designed to work with other players, or specifically with the THF not tanking, which makes them less effective when they have to try to tank and DD at the same time. But that's central enough to the design of the THF that I don't really see a way around it -- any general purpose damage buff that made a THF on par with other DDs *without* using SATA would make them ridiculously OP any time they *could* use their signature abilities.

Maybe allowing you to TA off your adventuring fellow, and then move around to SA while hate is on the fellow... it would help in places where you can use it, anyway. Otherwise I think the answer is going to be "get someone else to tank so you can use your real damage abilities".

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Enmity fix would be easy. Either increase the cap by a factor of 5 or decrease the enmity of all actions by a factor of 5. Then further halve the enmity generated by doing damage. No one has to struggle to keep hate off the mages right now even if they're spamming Cure 4, because we do so much more damage than we cure HP. Make it harder to hold hate through damage, problem solved.

Speaking as a PLD now, I would freaking love this (or if they just gave mobs some def and eva so DDs didn't do such ridiculous amounts in the first place, even NMs are ridiculously soft targets these days), but I don't think it's going to happen. If SE had intended to do anything about tanking through damage, they could have done it any time since RotZ. Damage as the only hate that matters seems to be here to stay, which is one reason PLD is such a wreck right now.

[Eeek]

SA and TA are nice, but I wouldn't exactly call them big sources of damage. If I'm running with an Abyssea pickup group, my THF will likely tank. If I doing things with friends on Abyssea, my THF is usually co-tanking (and I don't like spinning mobs around just to TA the other melee...it exposes the mages to conal AoEs). If I'm doing something like Dynamis, mobs spin and die so fast that landing SA is a total crapshoot.

Too much of THF's damage potential relies on perfect positioning, controlled fights, and 100% cooperative party/alliance members, and that's just not reality in FFXI today.

With that being said, I don't even play my THF anymore unless myself or my group needs TH. These days, playing my THF just feels like playing a slower, weaker version of my DNC (yes, they're both above-average and about equally geared).

[sc4500]

Thief rocks it is one the easiest jobs to solo rani and shenru with brews on. outside of those two it now one best tanks in the game now days with the right evasion and gear you get and if in abyessea the atmas just not even fair cloak and dagger, shadow of siren, and one triple attacks or double attacks ones.

Dancer got some flaws but can equal all stuff that thief can do. If played right. not main healer but blood tanks on some nms and blink tank on others, few times going need whm help.

Dancer can do 2 dancing edges back to back , for skill self skill chains, with merit reverse flourish. poor mans Sata.

[Rambus]

I personally think Thief has three main problems:

1) SE dramatically overestimates the frequency with which you can land SA and TA in an 80% Haste environment with even only 3 DDs, and they also dramatically overestimate the benefit of landing SA and TA. When I look at the WSs and gear they give Thief, I become more and more sure that they're assuming almost every WS THF does is stacked with SA or TA. Realistically, Thief seems to use these JAs about half as often as that because situations that encourage one tend to discourage the other.
TAing in Dynamis, easy! Plenty of people hitting the monster so one is bound to stay in front of you.
SAing in Dynamis, hard. The monster is spinning.



can be hard anywhere:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWtmr2Lz2_0

I was in an EXP pt long ago where i was to voke to let a thf land SATA on tank. it did not work because he would auto run the mob to make it spin and flop around.

look at emp ws ( we talked about this before) it is only good with SA or TA (maybe I do not have it to quote that). having a emp ws dependent like that is not right

[Glamdring]

getting other players to understand the need for positioning and to actually do it has always been like trying to pound nails into concrete using over-cooked spaghetti as a hammer. It has gotten even worse in an era when the only permitted source of pride is "did you see how much damage I did with that ___?"

Any thief and buffer know the need to hold position so that we can do what you are asking us to do. I've developed the habit on my bard of announcing the song that's coming, those that want the buff can stay in range, those that run out can just deal; I've got too much to do to chase you down to Pianissimo whatever the hell you want.

Thief can't do that with a tank, tho'. One thing thief can do to help themselves is split SA and TA up so that we get at least some boost on 2 attacks during the cool-down for the abilities. However, a permanent, significant damage increase for all attacks from any direction outside frontal would absolutely be in keeping with the job; honestly, almost every game involving a thief-like job gives Backstab. An intimidation ability would also be fitting (think of someone holding a knife to the throat). A stun effect on Mug (or some other effect in keeping with a sharp blow to the head) would not be too much to ask, although the 15 minute cooldown has got to go. WE ARE THIEVES, TAKING SOMEONE ELSE'S STUFF IS WHAT WE ARE ALL ABOUT, IT'S IN THE NAME!

I really don't see much need for anything on dancer, I've always considderred dancer to be a utility job like red mage. Maybe a parry with a Riposte option, but until they fix parry so that it occasionally happens the ability will be useless.

[Gallus]

People actually think THF needs fixing? Couldn't agree less. I can literally engage a VT mob on it, afk, get a drink, come back, and come back to a dead mob with items in my loot pool and no loss of health. I was doing this yesterday farming Sobek pops. Outside abyssea it's slightly less drastic, but still great. I would have agreed with you back at the level 75 cap, but no way nowadays.

[RaenRyong]

THF isn't the only job you could do that on.

[Rambus]

People actually think THF needs fixing? Couldn't agree less. I can literally engage a VT mob on it, afk, get a drink, come back, and come back to a dead mob with items in my loot pool and no loss of health. I was doing this yesterday farming Sobek pops. Outside abyssea it's slightly less drastic, but still great. I would have agreed with you back at the level 75 cap, but no way nowadays.

has nothing to do with job want though.

it goes like this :

we need ONE thf for th

not:

we need thf for hate management, or we need a thf for damage.

that is a problem.

why only let one thf for event when you can have muli whm or multi war???

[RaenRyong]

Yeah, that's basically my end argument. I want people to want THF and DNC for their own merits, not just a placebo TH etc.

[Juri_Licious]

I agree, DNC shouldn't be as good as it is. THF should eclipse it in damage output and speed.

[Byrth]

TH isn't a placebo though. It's one of the most useful Job Traits in the game in terms of improving efficiency. I'm at a loss to find it at the moment (thanks, BG search engine) but there was a thread a while back where people did legit testing on Treasure Hunter. It came back with TH1 and TH2 essentially being re-rolls in the event of a no-drop case, or a straight doubling of drop rate. I would have to find the original thread to remember the exact math.

It is unclear whether Rare drops are affected, but I suspect that they are.

[RaenRyong]

Yeah, you know what I mean beyond my horrible cynicism though :p

I just know when next update notes come out, they'll look like this:

WAR - huge damage boost!
MNK - huge damage boost!
SAM - huge damage boost!
DRK - nerf lul
THF - new 20 minute recast ability sharing timers with steal/despoil which will very rarely land a 1% potency paralysis on the mob.
BST - Dual Wield IV

[Eeek]

Yeah, you know what I mean beyond my horrible cynicism though :p

I just know when next update notes come out, they'll look like this:

WAR - huge damage boost!
MNK - huge damage boost!
SAM - huge damage boost!
DRK - nerf lul
THF - new 20 minute recast ability sharing timers with steal/despoil which will very rarely land a 1% potency paralysis on the mob.
BST - Dual Wield IV

Quoted to emphasize the sad, sad truth.

Oh, but you forgot to add that DNC will get a Triple Attack Job Trait and SCH will receive three new tiers of Critical Hit Rate Bonus.

[Olor]

I do have to say that THF should get dual wield MUCH MUCH earlier than it does...

[Byrth]

So basically you want the job to be more fun to play. THF is one of the busiest jobs in the game. To play the job to max capacity you're constantly moving, watching JA timers, making split second decisions whether to hold TP or blow it, reacting quickly enough to Accomplice overzealous BLMs, etc. You don't feel that the effort you put in is rewarded, because all that running around and moving does less damage than a Dancer that plays their job like a Monk (Saber Dance, Haste Samba, engage and WS when they hit 100TP) or, for that matter, a Monk (engage, WS at 100TP, use Impetus when it's up).

Somewhat broken idea, but really not that unreasonable given the shit WSs SE gives THF:
What if Sneak and Trick Attack were job traits that apply to any WS that fulfills the appropriate conditions, rather than job abilities? If you WS from behind someone, you transfer the enmity from your WS to them and the first hit auto-crits with the AGI bonus. If you WS from behind the monster, the first hit auto-crits and get the DEX bonus. You want Thieves and parties to legitimately care about their positioning? You do that and see what happens.

I'd love to see that change made, but I'd like Rudra's to get a fTP boost to at least 3.8 and the TP modifier to change to "chance to crit" at the same time though.

God, I hate that translators probably have trouble figuring out what the heck I'm talking about when I make suggestions about game mechanics that the playerbase has probably named something different than the developers like this. You know what, Mr. translator? If you're interested, PM me on BG. You'll be able to find me.

[Rambus]

I do have to say that THF should get dual wield MUCH MUCH earlier than it does...

never understood why dnc got so meny and thf is outclassed off a sub.

should be no reason to give a trait that is outclass or same as sub.

game is not 75 anymore.


So basically you want the job to be more fun to play. THF is one of the busiest jobs in the game. To play the job to max capacity you're constantly moving, watching JA timers, making split second decisions whether to hold TP or blow it, reacting quickly enough to Accomplice overzealous BLMs, etc. You don't feel that the effort you put in is rewarded, because all that running around and moving does less damage than a Dancer that plays their job like a Monk (Saber Dance, Haste Samba, engage and WS when they hit 100TP) or, for that matter, a Monk (engage, WS at 100TP, use Impetus when it's up).


SE might see it as OP but i do like the idea. no one subs thf anymore anyway.

one thing to note though those traits need to be early like the same as SA and TA now but thf main only. I like to see it done just to test it, if it is OP change it again ( like the mistake SE did on the 2H stuff at first)

[RaenRyong]

Stop buffing WAR and MNK and buff THF and DNC!

(not a blatant bump, honest)

[Karbuncle]

I've come to accept SE just doesn't want THF to be a good DD. They probably think that TH update that increases potency randomly on swings will be enough to warrant THF Melee. (inside abyssea its not a big deal, but when we move out... it won't be enough :X)

I hate TH as a whole, Its one big Placeblol. Drops in this game are too random for it to matter. Dumb luck is Dumb Luck TH just makes you feel like you're trying harder. Watch some SAM run up and get a drop 1/1 while you're killing it the 8th time With TH9 with no drop. /nerdrage

"oh you have TH! you're always wanted! BLAHBLAHBLAHHURP I dont even have THF leveled so i have no idea how useless and placebo TH is DERP DERP but i'll still act like its the best ability in the game HERP HERP"

Edit: Disclaimer: No I'm not being Serious. Yes I know TH Works.

Anyway, Lol, The Tags are kinda hilarious atm, I know why.

MORE ANYWAY.

A Good buff to THF would simply be giving us Dual Wield III, I know its not the same as DNC, but it opens us up to new sub jobs without nerfing our DPS. Good Chance is we will see DW3 by 99, With out current trend, Perhaps even DW4, IDK.

Stop giving us Abilities that are worthless(99% of the time) as a whole (Mug, Steal, Despoil, Hide, flee), and abilities that Are worthless Solo(Sneak Attack, Trick Attack, Coll/Acompl, Conspirator).

Give us more Solo friendly Abilities/Traits. a "Critical Hit Rate Bonus" Job Trait Wouldn't be Awful, on top of our Critical hit Damage trait. Something like

lv.15 Critical Hit Rate Bonus
Increases Critical Hit Rate 4%

Every 20 Levels we get a new Tier up to level 95. Total 5 Traits = 20% Increases Critical hit Rate. There we go, Increase to our DPS rather we solo or Duo, or Alliance.

Thats a Boost I'd be happy with, Beyond that, I really don't know what else to suggest. THF is a great job, right now, in Abyssea, Outside of Abyssea we'll be as "good" as we were @ 75... "hit the mob and go away"

[Tsukino_Kaji]

game is not 75 anymore.I'm just quoting this line so I can point it out later Ram. ^^

[Rambus]

maybe I should of said the game should not be 75 anymore, it feels like it is 75 due to lack of upgrades and rules that exist that applays to 75 cap

[Novax]

Thf is only there for the TH!
Dnc is only there to haste sambe for AV kills :D

Now rdm, rdm truly needs cure 5!

[Byrth]

"oh you have TH! you're always wanted! BLAHBLAHBLAHHURP I dont even have THF leveled so i have no idea how useless and placebo TH is DERP DERP but i'll still act like its the best ability in the game HERP HERP"

It's kind of hard to avoid seeing this as directed at me, so here's the link that shows you're wrong:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/95489-TH-testing-final-results

TH definitely does matter. If you're doing an event for drops and choosing between a Ukon WAR and a THF, you should always choose the Thief. Killing half as quickly but getting more than twice as many drops ends up being a good deal. There are plenty of times on Dancer when I solo NMs where I don't need to Waltz at all and wish I had Thief leveled because I'd like to get drops.

Assuming they extended the mechanism proposed in that thread further, the odds of a drop with TH3 are:
n = (1 - Drop rate)
TH3 Drop rate = (1-n^4)

10% drop rate -> 35% drop rate.
30% drop rate -> 76% drop rate.
50% drop rate -> 94% drop rate.

Blue and TH is much better than just Blue. I wonder why? This doesn't even account for whatever TH+1 and the new proc system does.

Yeah, poor Thief. It's hard being one of the most useful jobs in the game.

[Karbuncle]

It's kind of hard to avoid seeing this as directed at me, so here's the link that shows you're wrong:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/95489-TH-testing-final-results

TH definitely does matter. If you're doing an event for drops and choosing between a Ukon WAR and a THF, you should always choose the Thief. Killing half as quickly but getting more than twice as many drops ends up being a good deal. There are plenty of times on Dancer when I solo NMs where I don't need to Waltz at all and wish I had Thief leveled because I'd like to get drops.

Assuming they extended the mechanism proposed in that thread further, the odds of a drop with TH3 are:
n = (1 - Drop rate)
TH3 Drop rate = (1-n^4)

10% drop rate -> 35% drop rate.
30% drop rate -> 76% drop rate.
50% drop rate -> 94% drop rate.

Blue and TH is much better than just Blue. I wonder why? This doesn't even account for whatever TH+1 and the new proc system does.

Yeah, poor Thief. It's hard being one of the most useful jobs in the game.

Actually, Its not directed at you in any way. I read like, half of the thread. If this is your point of view its seriously nothing more than mere coincidence. I promise and assure you. It was not directed at you.

But, Way to take Maximum Offense and go Full Salvo defending the ULTIMATE HONOR OF YOUR POSTS WITH ALL THE KINGS THREADS. Wasn't aware anyone could take something so stupid as "TH is placebo" so Seriously.

Really, I thought most THF's know "TH Is Placebo" is more of a running joke amongst the Community. I'm full aware Treasure Hunter is not Placebo, I'm full aware it actually effects drops quite nicely. I don't know what word i would use to describe my post... But it was more "Half Serious" "Half Sarcasm" "half Masochist". Meaning I'm aware TH is working as intended, but i also tend to hate the "dumb luck" aspect of the game too.

Doesn't mean i seriously believe its Placebo.

I can't be the only one who gets TH upgrade on a mob and goes "WOO, Stronger placebo!" ?

Edit: Also, Shamaya is a friend of mine in game too :X I'm aware of all of his Blog posts and Tests. They're very nice. He is my Idol THF. So i've went over those things a lot, He did put a lot of effort into it. I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I edited my old post so future mistakes like this don't happen.

[Eeek]

Yeah, I don't think Krabnuckle meant it literally. We all know that TH isn't placebo, but for those of us who have played THF for a few years, TH did become a cynical joke. All THFs have heard 'THF? Y U NO GIVE ME DORPS' over and over and over and over and over and over again. Friends/LS mates give us a hard time every time they go 1/1 on an NM drop without a THF.

"Believe in Koki!"

(I passionately hated bandwagons SAMs....)

You know, those kind of jokes. And it gets old. And we grow cynical. And then we head out, TH another mob, put on our dunce cap, stand in a corner, and watch as the QQs roll in when FFXI's random number generator denies them another drop.

BandwagonSAM defeats Kirin
You find a Wind Crystal on Kirin
<LS> wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<LS> lolTHF

/sigh

[RaenRyong]

Not to mention some LSs are actually dumb enough that they will deny certain people coming on THF and allow others (with equal levels of TH) just because they feel like one THF is luckier than another.

The whole "placebo" joke is largely self-mocking since the playerbase basically treats us like worthless whores.

[Rambus]

yeah what those 3 posts above me said, i herd it too.

so i would get on and say hey can i go thf? tarutaru th is the best!

eeek might of herd me say it before lol

[Byrth]

You guys need to play with people who understand statistics or at least aren't superstitious. I've been tanking Glavoids with a TH3+3 THF for the last week or so (starting Ukon... kinda) and have popped 12. I have 14 shells from them and don't blame the THF. It's probability. My sample size is small. If I include all the Glavoids I've ever killed, this pushes it to around 1.4 per Glavoid. If I include all the NMs I killed for Twashtar, this puts it around 1.5 upgrade items per monster. If I'm actually going to get another 161 items for Ukon, it'll probably even out in the end to approximately as many as Twashtar took me.

I landed 93 Quicksteps in a row while testing Striking Flourish. (.95^93 = ~1% chance) I'm not somehow "Lord of Dance, Luckiest Quickstep in all the land!" If you track enough statistics, you're going to see things that are predicted to happen 1% of the time... approximately 1% of the time.

PS. Sorry for assuming you'd read the thread, Karb. You pretty much exactly addressed my point and used terms that made me think of old FFXI where people would refer to their Thief's Knife as a "Placebo Sticker" as if it did literally nothing, and then bitch and moan for pages as if sacrificing a Thief's offhand was really affecting the alliance's damage output more than TK was helping its drop rate.

[Eeek]

I play with real people.

I do not play only with people who are coldly logical, completely rational, and entirely lacking emotion. They do not spend their play time running numbers through multiple spreadsheets to see if and exactly how TH works. They don't need formulas and numbers to know it works. THFs would never leave their Mog Houses on the job if TH was truly broken, and I sure don't see people rushing to do things like Dynamis or farm Empyrean Weapon items without a THF.

No, the 'problem' isn't logical - it's cultural. Friends tend to tease one another in jest, and in FFXI, TH is one gigantic target. That's what we're trying to communicate to you. Our friends know that it's random, they know that it does work, and when it doesn't, we THFs know that our friends will tease us. Sure, it's all in good fun, but it can and does get to us over the course of a few years. To some degree, we all grow somewhat cynical about our 'Placebo' since we don't have any real control over it, and because we can't control it, it falls 'victim' to superstition and perceptions of luck.

That's just reality. We THFs bring it up and tend to joke about it since every single one of us has experienced the exact same thing to one degree or another. For us, it's just a part of talking shop.

[Rambus]

I play with real people.

I do not play only with people who are coldly logical, completely rational, and entirely lacking emotion. They do not spend their play time running numbers through multiple spreadsheets to see if and exactly how TH works. They don't need formulas and numbers to know it works. THFs would never leave their Mog Houses on the job if TH was truly broken, and I sure don't see people rushing to do things like Dynamis or farm Empyrean Weapon items without a THF.

No, the 'problem' isn't logical - it's cultural. Friends tend to tease one another in jest, and in FFXI, TH is one gigantic target. That's what we're trying to communicate to you. Our friends know that it's random, they know that it does work, and when it doesn't, we THFs know that our friends will tease us. Sure, it's all in good fun, but it can and does get to us over the course of a few years. To some degree, we all grow somewhat cynical about our 'Placebo' since we don't have any real control over it, and because we can't control it, it falls 'victim' to superstition and perceptions of luck.

That's just reality. We THFs bring it up and tend to joke about it since every single one of us has experienced the exact same thing to one degree or another. For us, it's just a part of talking shop.

yep, most are like that ^. I was trying to make such a replay but I could not find the words for it. eek where you there or remember when i would ask to go thf cuz i claimed tarutaru th was the best? maybe i only did that in my dyna shell there, i can't remember

[Karbuncle]

TaruTaru TH is only the best when it requires a Sacrifice.

[Rambus]

TaruTaru TH is only the best when it requires a Sacrifice.

that was the joke i implay when i say such things so i can go thf lol, but really do you remember me saying that? you seem to know who i was there , /sigh

[Karbuncle]

that was the joke i implay when i say such things so i can go thf lol, but really do you remember me saying that? you seem to know who i was there , /sigh

We used to Sacrifice Taru all the time for drops back in Dynamis Xarc~

[Rambus]

We used to Sacrifice Taru all the time for drops back in Dynamis Xarc~

oh i was confusing you with eeek >< sorry mithra avatars >< lol

[noodles355]

Bump for thief and dancer lovin'

Also, I'm not too fussed about Subtle blow on thief, as much as I am about the general TP dealt to a mob. TP delt is TP recieved per hit +3. That means that a 6hit 2-hander will give the mob 118TP in the time it takes him to get 100%TP and a 20hit dualwielder will give the mob 160TP in the time it takes him to get 100% TP. That's a little unfair and pointless. Should just make TP delt = TP recieved so all jobs generate the same enemy TP gained.

[Anethia]

We used to Sacrifice Taru all the time for drops back in Dynamis Xarc~

I still sacrifice taru's. I feed one taru to my moogle each time I really need something to drop. I spent 3 days in vunkerl inlet trying to farm Mavi basmak solo but forgot to sacrifice a taru. Yesterday I tossed my moogle a taru before heading out and not only did I solo a good run for TE's but got my Mavi basmak too 