Tenzen needs to stop self-skillchaining.

[Aysha]

This behavior is really starting to tick me off.

It seems like anytime Tenzen's Hagakure is available, and if he also has Meditation at the ready, he will try to set up a 3-step self-skillchain or at least that's the only theory I can posit as to why he sometimes does the weirdest crap.

Party Setup is this:

THF (family member) with Rudra's
BLU (me) with Requiescat (sp?) and CdC
Tenzen
Shantotto II
Apururu (UC)
Amchuchu

In that order. There's a lot of skillchain options here, and some of them I quite enjoy.

Rudra's -> Tsukikage = Darkness
Rudra's -> Requiescat = Darkness
Rudra's -> Torimai = Fusion (yay, Diffusion Ray burst)
Rudra's -> Torimai -> Dimidation -> CDC (yaay, double Light)
Rudra's -> Final Exam = Fusion
Rudra's -> Final Exam -> Dimidation -> CDC = Double Light
Rudra's -> Doctor's Orders = Darkness
Rudra's -> ??? -> Doctor's Orders = Gravitation (and then CDC = Darkness) (I keep forgetting which weapon skill falls in the middle)

To name but a few (not even touching the myriad of options having to do with Emperical Research lol) Point is, lots and lots of options.

BUT, for some strange reason, I've been seeing Tenzen using his Tachi: Enpi clone after Rudra's and it makes no sense because it doesn't even cause a skillchain. I've also seen him do Yukikaze and Tsukioboro which will do things like Scission, Impaction, etc with some of the other weaponskills.

But anytime he does this, he ALSO uses Hagakure so I can only guess that Tenzen is trying to make a 3-step skillchain on his own.

But that's so silly because in any normal group setup, there's no way that you're ever going to get off a 3-step skillchain with other Trusts (which you're bound to have).

So, I propose that we remove Tenzen's AI routine that calls for him to attempt a 3-step Skillchain on the grounds that 99% of the time, it will never work because someone will interrupt it almost guaranteed. I've not seen him even get to Step #2 let alone #3 yet.

[Nyarlko]

This behavior is really starting to tick me off.

It seems like anytime Tenzen's Hagakure is available, and if he also has Meditation at the ready, he will try to set up a 3-step self-skillchain or at least that's the only theory I can posit as to why he sometimes does the weirdest crap.

Party Setup is this:

THF (family member) with Rudra's
BLU (me) with Requiescat (sp?) and CdC
Tenzen
Shantotto II
Apururu (UC)
Amchuchu

In that order. There's a lot of skillchain options here, and some of them I quite enjoy.

Rudra's -> Tsukikage = Darkness
Rudra's -> Requiescat = Darkness
Rudra's -> Torimai = Fusion (yay, Diffusion Ray burst)
Rudra's -> Torimai -> Dimidation -> CDC (yaay, double Light)
Rudra's -> Final Exam = Fusion
Rudra's -> Final Exam -> Dimidation -> CDC = Double Light
Rudra's -> Doctor's Orders = Darkness
Rudra's -> ??? -> Doctor's Orders = Gravitation (and then CDC = Darkness) (I keep forgetting which weapon skill falls in the middle)

To name but a few (not even touching the myriad of options having to do with Emperical Research lol) Point is, lots and lots of options.

BUT, for some strange reason, I've been seeing Tenzen using his Tachi: Enpi clone after Rudra's and it makes no sense because it doesn't even cause a skillchain. I've also seen him do Yukikaze and Tsukioboro which will do things like Scission, Impaction, etc with some of the other weaponskills.

But anytime he does this, he ALSO uses Hagakure so I can only guess that Tenzen is trying to make a 3-step skillchain on his own.

But that's so silly because in any normal group setup, there's no way that you're ever going to get off a 3-step skillchain with other Trusts (which you're bound to have).

So, I propose that we remove Tenzen's AI routine that calls for him to attempt a 3-step Skillchain on the grounds that 99% of the time, it will never work because someone will interrupt it almost guaranteed. I've not seen him even get to Step #2 let alone #3 yet.

Um... Which Tenzen Trust? >.> There are more than one.

[Aysha]

Um... Which Tenzen Trust? >.> There are more than one.

If I'm talking about Great Katana WS, then I am obviously not talking about Tenzen II seeing as Tenzen II uses a bow...

And if there are three Tenzens, I didn't know. I mean just regular Tenzen. Sorry 'bout that, coulda been more specific lol. Ah well.

[Nyarlko]

If I'm talking about Great Katana WS, then I am obviously not talking about Tenzen II seeing as Tenzen II uses a bow...

And if there are three Tenzens, I didn't know. I mean just regular Tenzen. Sorry 'bout that, coulda been more specific lol. Ah well.

Partially my fault too here, since I think I was thinking that there was a Tenzen UC, which would actually be Ayame UC. >_>;; I avoid melee trusts as a basic policy, so sorry for the confusion there. orz

In this case, if you are seeing undesirable behavior from a certain Trust, then don't use that Trust. Sounds like Tenzen(I) current/normal behavior is unique, so it would be a shame to change it IMO (and unlikely for the devs to be amenable to making any major AI changes at this point as well.)

Given your stated setup, you should get better overall results anyway if you replaced Tenzen and ShantottoII with Ulmia and Koru-Moru, as that would allow both players to stay magic haste capped passively.

[Aysha]

Partially my fault too here, since I think I was thinking that there was a Tenzen UC, which would actually be Ayame UC. >_>;; I avoid melee trusts as a basic policy, so sorry for the confusion there. orz

In this case, if you are seeing undesirable behavior from a certain Trust, then don't use that Trust. Sounds like Tenzen(I) current/normal behavior is unique, so it would be a shame to change it IMO (and unlikely for the devs to be amenable to making any major AI changes at this point as well.)

Given your stated setup, you should get better overall results anyway if you replaced Tenzen and ShantottoII with Ulmia and Koru-Moru, as that would allow both players to stay magic haste capped passively.

Well, see, we're doing Apex Raptors which is the only decent CP that we've been able to find outside of a full 6-man group (nobody wants a THF) and Shantotto II's magic bursts are a huge part of our damage (she is throwing out 5-9ks twice every 5 seconds or so) and it allows for reasonably fast kills that give us 18-26k CP per kill during this campaign. We could go to Reisenjima, but I've found that the CP there is a good slice slower. Yes, the mobs die faster, but the gains are a bit slower (though there is the silt thing, but given our lack of an endgame shell, I wonder if there's any point in collecting silt) and the mobs die so fast that they are actually rather boring to fight and of course the NM pops waste a lot of time as well and don't give any more CP than the regular mobs do despite how much stronger they are.

We've tried replacing Tenzen with several other NPCs, but nobody else puts out weaponskills like he does at least none that we have. We don't have the SAM Ark Angel yet (we're almost up to those, but didn't want to waste time during the CP campaign to go questing to get them) and Ayame wants to start skillchains rather than end them and said family member is not really the best at trying to time it (That's why all the SCs listed above have the THF opening rather than closing).

And yes, I realize that SA+WS is an awesome closer, and I try to set it up for her as often as I can (though a Trust will almost always jump in, but every now and then we can dump 30k+ damage on the mob if nobody gets in our way and/or she doesn't mis-time it).

Tenzen would be awesome if it weren't for this behavior I described above and Shantotto II as I said is irreplaceable, there's nobody that can come close to her damage output outside of maybe a player who's a mage but neither of us are mages (other than me being a BLU). I'm lacking some elemental spells and gear to really do MBs all that well (I can do the occasional Diffusion Ray burst for 12-14k but that's about the best I have, though the group so very rarely makes Fusion or Light and someone always ends up throwing another WS during the thing and screwing it up anyways).

I suppose some of the woes are also because of the SC/MB system itself, in how fragile it is, how easy it is to screw something up (a WS shouldn't immediately end a Magic Burst's window for example).

It's just frustrating when AI-controlled NPCs so often get in the way and screw stuff up, and the frustration that Tenzen is the only melee person who can SC often but chooses to do absolutely stupid behavior that makes no sense (such as trying to set up a multi-part SC on his own).

EDIT: As I type this I do realize that I could try being the one to call my trusts rather than having her do it... is I-Level the only thing that defines a Trust's parameters? Her gear/stats are a bit better than mine which is why I usually have her call her NPCs. But if I called mine, and used Ayame, then maybe Ayame would constantly try to set up skillchains that I could close with CDC...

[Nyarlko]

Your THF needs to practice skillchaining. THF works great for CP parties, and if you didn't have to have the caveat of "I don't know how to skillchain", there shouldn't be any issue finding a group. (You can also always make your own.) There is no way around having to learn the timing for closing/continuing a skillchain. Even mages need to learn the timing in order to Magic Burst.

THF is better at closing than opening generally, due to stuff like Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, and Rudra's being a beast of a ws. Rudra's > CdC btw, almost always at comparable gear levels and until you get to the higher end of gearing options. The skillchain/magicburst system itself is actually pretty forgiving until you go past 3-steps. Just practice your timing and make sure you are using ws that actually sc together.

Item level of the player is the primary factor for Trust stats, with add'l small boosts from Cheers and Rhapsody KIs. I don't remember if it's "only main hand weapon" or if it's average ilvl, but ilvl sets the baseline.

You really should consider just changing your trust setup, since your complaint boils down to "Tenzen would be great, if he wasn't acting like Tenzen. Please make him stop acting like Tenzen." :x

My usual solo/dbox Trust setups as melee jobs are always pure support to pump ME up rather than slow everything down by using melees who might/might not (most likely not) be able to contribute more to damage output than buffing up a player. Forcing magic haste alone is going to increase both of your ws rates by ~40%, which should greatly outweigh whatever any melee trust is going to be able to put out.

[Aysha]

Your THF needs to practice skillchaining. THF works great for CP parties, and if you didn't have to have the caveat of "I don't know how to skillchain", there shouldn't be any issue finding a group. (You can also always make your own.) There is no way around having to learn the timing for closing/continuing a skillchain. Even mages need to learn the timing in order to Magic Burst.

well the bigger problem is that she's entirely anti-social and refuses to do groups at all, period. lol.


THF is better at closing than opening generally, due to stuff like Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, and Rudra's being a beast of a ws. Rudra's > CdC btw, almost always at comparable gear levels and until you get to the higher end of gearing options. The skillchain/magicburst system itself is actually pretty forgiving until you go past 3-steps. Just practice your timing and make sure you are using ws that actually sc together.

Not sure why you included the "Rudra's > CDC" when the CDC user is me (a blue mage) who has no access to Rudra's (unless I switch to THF myself) and she, a THF, shouldn't be using a sword in the first place, so... kinda confused why you added that?

I will admit though it's becoming more apparent I Really need to set time aside to quest Savage Blade (It's been on a bucket list of to-do things I've not done yet lol), though. CDC is ridiculously hard to close SCs with whatsoever, because it doesn't freaking chain with anything from what I can see, unless it only chains with weapon types I never see in common playing.


Item level of the player is the primary factor for Trust stats, with add'l small boosts from Cheers and Rhapsody KIs. I don't remember if it's "only main hand weapon" or if it's average ilvl, but ilvl sets the baseline.

99% sure it's the avg I-level as listed by /checkparam and the equipment screen. But I wasn't sure if there were any additional factors like your armor strength (not all 119s are created equal etc). But, I tried calling my trusts out today and it seems like my 119s are just as good as her 119s, so... that's good to know at least.


You really should consider just changing your trust setup, since your complaint boils down to "Tenzen would be great, if he wasn't acting like Tenzen. Please make him stop acting like Tenzen." :x

Well, see, I like Tenzen except when he decides to go off and do his own thing regardless of what the group is doing. I love how he closes skillchains constantly, but I hate how he'll suddenly go "Welp I'm gonna make my own skillchain. I don't care that there's one on-going right now and my WS won't chain with the previous one that was just used!" type stuff he does.


My usual solo/dbox Trust setups as melee jobs are always pure support to pump ME up rather than slow everything down by using melees who might/might not (most likely not) be able to contribute more to damage output than buffing up a player. Forcing magic haste alone is going to increase both of your ws rates by ~40%, which should greatly outweigh whatever any melee trust is going to be able to put out.

Well, again, Shantotto is the majority of the damage, but Shantotto needs a lot of skillchains to do her potential... I'm not all that concerned with how much damage the skillchains do; if Shantotto does 18-20k damage every time a skillchain, any skillchain, happens then that's all I need, lol. Those 20ks do way more damage than anything except for SA+Rudra's closing a skillchain (which is about 25k total, give or take a few K). Unless of course, I can get lucky and drop a CDC ontop of someone else's Light skillchain which gives me this "mega-Light" that does 2x to 3x as much damage as a normal light should do... I thought that was only possible with Aftermaths and relics? I'm not using one of those though, so.. ah well. I don't claim to know everything about the game haha. I just know that if I drop a CDC ontop of a light, I get this ridiculously strong light skillchain, so ya. I try to do that whenever I can. That is assuming someone else doesn't do something stupid to mess it up....

Oh, and I can MB Diffusion Ray for like 15k. That's nice. But again, it is almost always messed up by somebody else at least 75% of the time (and it isn't always Tenzen).

Either way, we tried playing around last night, we tried King of Hearts... he didn't do much of anything that I could see.. kills were significantly slower. We also tried a couple others, though we've yet to try a bard... but then again from my experiences in summoning Joachim, which songs he decides to use is... spotty.

It'd be nice if we had Ygnas, but sheesh. The ridiculous amount of crap SE thinks players should do to get a competent healer is a bit over-the-top. The second-best we can find is Apururu (UC), but the problem with Apururu is that she insists on doing Haste... which will screw with any NPC that does Haste II, she will kinda-sorta lock the other NPC up to where they stop casting Haste II entirely. I would think about swapping Tenzen, for say, Arciela II to get her Haste II but... about 10-15 minutes later, Arciela is refusing to cast Haste because Apururu screwed her routine up.

EDIT: Questing ArkEV is something on our list, but we don't want to stop in the middle of the flippin' CP campaign to do it. Maybe with ArkEV, the healer wouldn't blow as much MP as she does trying to keep Amchuchu alive? I hear people saying good things about ArkEV but I'm kinda worried about the fact she has no Provoke, but I'd think that surely a Paladin would take physical damage better than a Rune Fencer would? So if we didn't need a boatload of MP to keep the tank alive... I could swap Apururu for another healer, anybody who doesn't cast Haste (even Kupipi would work lol) and then get a Haste II in there instead. But with Amchuchu.... I need Apururu's ridiculous MP pool. There's no two ways about it and even she runs into tight spots where we have to wait for MP to regen, despite her Nott and Convert spam.

[Hawklaser]

Not sure why you included the "Rudra's > CDC" when the CDC user is me (a blue mage) who has no access to Rudra's (unless I switch to THF myself) and she, a THF, shouldn't be using a sword in the first place, so... kinda confused why you added that?

Well, see, I like Tenzen except when he decides to go off and do his own thing regardless of what the group is doing. I love how he closes skillchains constantly, but I hate how he'll suddenly go "Welp I'm gonna make my own skillchain. I don't care that there's one on-going right now and my WS won't chain with the previous one that was just used!" type stuff he does.


The Rudras vs CDC, is likely more due to should be trying to close skillchains with Rudras instead of CDC when possible. Might want to pick up Evisceration and Mandalic Stab for her, and Savage Blade for you if having problems making good skillchains with just the two of you. As that would allow for Double Light and Dark just off your WS's. Evisceration <-> CDC, Followed by Rudra's should be Double Dark, and Savage Blade <-> Mandalic followed by CDC should be Double Light.

Problem your running into is Rudra's and CDC are in the same place for the T2 chains. While those other WS's are in other spots that will open things up for you.

As to Tenzen... What I think may be going on is more due to difference in lag for player vs server. I have noticed with a lot of Trusts that will close skillchains, they will WS the exact moment it will cause a chain. This does not account for your lag when enter your weapon skill or receive the info that theirs has gone off. So it is actually very easy to end up with very odd things with skill chains with them around. Try using Tenzen 1 with Iroha 2 at somepoint and watch how often they skill chain off of each other making Light. Not sure if they can make double light, but will see light quite a bit with the two of them, and Iroha does MB Flare II off of it as well sometimes.

[Nyarlko]

Like Hawklaswer said, I meant as a closer for sc's. XD RS is not subject to the whims of crits like CdC is, so it's easier to get nice sc numbers out of a solid RS in general.

Don't get how someone can be antisocial and expect to succeed in a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG.. At the very least, it is one of the core concepts of combat here and is required learning for everyone (except maybe WHM, though I know several who insist on meleeing if it's not suicidal to do so since they have Yagrush.) Refusing to close sc's is hurting both of your gameplay and efficiency.

Don't use Joachim, he's got... strange taste in which songs to use. Ulmia on the other hand will always use 2x marches when summoned by a melee as long as you don't need accuracy. KoH likes to WS (which can interrupt your own sc), likes to MB w/ Firagas (often grabbing adds) and likes to haste+refresh everyone, which is sometimes desirable behavior, but with THF+BLU, you'd probably be better served by Koru-Moru to haste the THF while the BLU uses Erratic Flutter (or be lazy and let Koru keep you covered too. lol)

I've never liked Apu due to her many quirks, so I'm on TeamYO. XD Yoran-Oran(UC) is a true WHM, uses Afflatus Solace ("cureskin"), and has always performed better for me than any other healer trust. He also does not haste, so no conflicts w/ other trusts.

[Aysha]

{Hmmm.}

Slightly off-topic, but I used to do the whole WHM thing a long time ago, well before Afflatus, etc were added... any decent guides around for it? Was thinking of trying that soon too.

[Aysha]

Okay, so sorry about short reply earlier; I was in the gaming room and trying to alt-tab between pulls but now that we're taking a break for the night and I'm on my bedroom computer, I can more properly respond to what was said above:

RE:Hawklaser: We don't have the Mythic Weaponskills yet, but I started reading up on Nyzul Isle (we've never been there). Hope to try it after the campaign is done sometime.

Also, the lag thing, I don't think that's what's happening... Tenzen is using strange weaponskills that make no sense after we do our weaponskills. When he uses the correct weaponskills, we chain fine. The only time a chain fails is when he outright misses (which he does occasionally). For example, RS or CDC -> Hanaikusa will *always* create Fusion. Lag has never caused this to fail. RS->Tsuki will *always* create Darkness.

The problem is when he decides to do Yukikaze or that Enpi clone which I'm pretty sure does not chain, or if it does, it just impaction or scission or something stupid like that. That's why I'm thinking he is trying to make his own skillchain, because he always tries Enpi first, and then about 5 or so seconds later, he will then throw a Yukikaze into it too.

Though after looking up skillchain properties of these weaponskills, THAT doesn't even make sense... but now that I'm reading this, I DO remember him throwing his own version of Jinpus as well, so what I think he's trying to go for is he wants to do Enpi -> something... then he gets interrupted, and then he tries Yukikaze and then he'll throw a Jinpu in to make Distortion. Not sure what's up with the Enpi... it doesn't make sense whatsoever, but whatever. *shrug*

Anyways, I did try calling Iroha II out and... they were throwing Distortion and Fusion left and right... and a couple Light. Iroha's Flare II MBs were only doing 1,200 damage which isn't even worth it. I tried to CDC ontop of one of their Light, but I think I was a sec late because I wasn't expecting it and it didn't work. So eh... nowhere near as good as Shantotto even with Tenzen screwing up skillchains.

@Nyarlko: Ulmia is locked for me because of that stupid Bahamut questline that I should do someday. I finished "Dawn" before the Trust Magic system, and back then I had no access to an Endgame shell (still don't...) but now that we have 119 gear, maybe I'll go and nail that down so I can pick up Ulmia.

As for her anti-social thing, I mainly meant that as a reason why we don't join full groups. It's usually just the two of us killing raptors. We've been doing OK; she's on like 1300 almost and I'm ~800. I'm mainly shooting for 1200 by the end of the week... if we miss the goal, it won't be by that much I don't think.

We can kill the stuff at a reasonable pace, my main point in this thread is that we could do so even faster if the trusts would cooperate a bit more.

[Hawklaser]

RE:Hawklaser: We don't have the Mythic Weaponskills yet, but I started reading up on Nyzul Isle (we've never been there). Hope to try it after the campaign is done sometime.

Also, the lag thing, I don't think that's what's happening... Tenzen is using strange weaponskills that make no sense after we do our weaponskills. When he uses the correct weaponskills, we chain fine. The only time a chain fails is when he outright misses (which he does occasionally). For example, RS or CDC -> Hanaikusa will *always* create Fusion. Lag has never caused this to fail. RS->Tsuki will *always* create Darkness.

The problem is when he decides to do Yukikaze or that Enpi clone which I'm pretty sure does not chain, or if it does, it just impaction or scission or something stupid like that. That's why I'm thinking he is trying to make his own skillchain, because he always tries Enpi first, and then about 5 or so seconds later, he will then throw a Yukikaze into it too.

Though after looking up skillchain properties of these weaponskills, THAT doesn't even make sense... but now that I'm reading this, I DO remember him throwing his own version of Jinpus as well, so what I think he's trying to go for is he wants to do Enpi -> something... then he gets interrupted, and then he tries Yukikaze and then he'll throw a Jinpu in to make Distortion. Not sure what's up with the Enpi... it doesn't make sense whatsoever, but whatever. *shrug*

Anyways, I did try calling Iroha II out and... they were throwing Distortion and Fusion left and right... and a couple Light. Iroha's Flare II MBs were only doing 1,200 damage which isn't even worth it. I tried to CDC ontop of one of their Light, but I think I was a sec late because I wasn't expecting it and it didn't work. So eh... nowhere near as good as Shantotto even with Tenzen screwing up skillchains.


The Mythic weaponskills are not too hard to get, can solo clear the original Nyzul in a weekend easily if far enough along in Rhapsodies.

The lag thing is more of there is a slight delay of when your input to weapon skill actually hits the server, while the trusts weaponskills don't have that delay, but instead have a delay showing up on your end. It could be just enough that its causing your weaponskills and Tenzens to partly overlap causing things to not work.

The Iroha 2 and Tenzen 1 was more to illustrate how precisely timed their weaponskills happen in relation to other ones out there. A better example might have been trying to close a skillchain off of Ayame with Tenzen 1 out... its pretty hard to do as he always seems to have enough TP to close her chain at the precise moment can cause a skillchain.

[Nyarlko]

The base mythic/Vigil weapons can drop from any NM inside Nyzul too, so don't worry too much if you can't find someone w/ a lv100 KI. TH8+ helps a ton in my experience if you are trying to farm via NMs.

It's always a good idea to clean things out mission-wise. ^^ Ulmia is much more reliable than Joachim, partly because she has a much smaller repertoire to choose from, but that also means you don't ever have to see her toss out a Paeon while your party is at full health. XD Arciela(I) trust is also a nice option to have, though I think she only buffs her caller.

There's a ton of perks all over the place for completing missions (like Vorseals in Escha, permanent CP bonuses, etc) so it's in your best interest to knock them out as soon as you can.

[Aysha]

We've got most of the missions done thusfar, we're missing WotG (because from reading the Mission questline stuff on wiki... oi. it seems like they made it *ridiculously* long) and Adoulin (just haven't gotten around to it).

We did manage to clear RoV entirely, as well as Promathia (except for that thing with Bahamut) and Aht Urghan.

Been wanting to mess around with Abyssea but again, time and how freaking complicated they made it with all the NMs you have to pop and how they don't always drop the next pop item, blah blah. Not sure how much space I feel like taking up in a character's inventory trying to lug around 50+ pop items for one zone of Abyssea. I don't get why they couldn't have made one of the Rhapsody KIs guarantee Abyssea NM Pop item drops (or let you buy them as long as you've killed the mob at least once) or something as it doesn't look like hardly any of that gear is even useful anymore?

[Stamos]

In regards to Tenzen self skillchaining. He does that once he gets 1500 tp. If you WS before that, he will skillchain with you. Once he hits 1500 he will use Meditate and try to self sc.