To the devs: Why won't you nerf summoner?

[Shiyo]

Hello, developers of FFXI(hopefully). I am VERY interested in knowing your reasoning for not nerfing summoner in the slightest these past 7 months. This job can press astral conduit, spam it's most powerful blood pacts and completely obliterate every boss in the entire game effortlessly from a safe distance immune to 100% of any bosses mechanics in 30-60 seconds. This one job has completely neutered and turned every "challenging" boss in the game into a complete joke - there is no challenge anymore if you simply bring at least 2 buffed summoners with geo/cors buffing them and debuffing the mob.

It really is not fun for a class to be so powerful that there is simply no challenging content left in the game. No other job in the game has the power to simply completely trivalize all of the bosses in this game and kill them in 30-60 seconds.

Sitting max distance out of 100% of bosses mechanics while you kill them in 30-60 seconds by spamming blood pacts is NOT fun for a lot of people. This is borderline cheating and gamesharking the game. Things like this have no place in a MMORPG.


Please, I beg of you, developers of FFXI, remove astral conduit from the game until you have time to rebalance it and fix summoner. If you won't remove it, or nerf summoner for SEVEN months(that's long), can you please explain why you're allowing this one job to completely destroy all challenge in your game?

edit:

To add to all this:

If you aren't allowed to get an aeonic from brew killing NM's why are you allowed to get them from AC burning them? AC burning is literally easier and faster.

I'll quote someone here:


I'm pretty sure conduit is so damn broken its even faster than brewing.

Ive brewed WOC and it takes around 2 minutes give or take... conduit with 2 smns takes around 30 seconds. (never brewed albumen)

So explain why something stronger than brewing is allowed but brewing isn't allowed for kill credit. Brews are LITERALLY game shark, what does that make AC burning? Beat the game button?

Beat a game button: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUeeFybkRxA

[Urmom]

Because bst already got nerfed hard for doing that to a lesser extent and that's there quota

[Selindrile]

The heavy handed way they handled the Bst nerf makes me sure hope they never nerf SMN, I wish they'd just revert the BST changes instead, and while they're at it take back the "Geo nerf" that actually ended up nerfing Melees and Blms.

[Teraniku]

Hello, developers of FFXI(hopefully). I am VERY interested in knowing your reasoning for not nerfing summoner in the slightest these past 7 months. This job can press astral conduit, spam it's most powerful blood pacts and completely obliterate every boss in the entire game effortlessly from a safe distance immune to 100% of any bosses mechanics in 30-60 seconds. This one job has completely neutered and turned every "challenging" boss in the game into a complete joke - there is no challenge anymore if you simply bring at least 2 buffed summoners with geo/cors buffing them and debuffing the mob.

It really is not fun for a class to be so powerful that there is simply no challenging content left in the game. No other job in the game has the power to simply completely trivalize all of the bosses in this game and kill them in 30-60 seconds.

Sitting max distance out of 100% of bosses mechanics while you kill them in 30-60 seconds by spamming blood pacts is NOT fun for a lot of people. This is borderline cheating and gamesharking the game. Things like this have no place in a MMORPG.


Please, I beg of you, developers of FFXI, remove astral conduit from the game until you have time to rebalance it and fix summoner. If you won't remove it, or nerf summoner for SEVEN months(that's long), can you please explain why you're allowing this one job to completely destroy all challenge in your game?

And again, I'll state that the Summoners putting out those numbers are the best geared / Job Master SMNs. If every SMN could put out those numbers then I could see your point.

[Nyarlko]

The heavy handed way they handled the Bst nerf makes me sure hope they never nerf SMN, I wish they'd just revert the BST changes instead, and while they're at it take back the "Geo nerf" that actually ended up nerfing Melees and Blms.

"Geo nerf" was a bug fix. That's not getting reverted.

[Shiyo]

And again, I'll state that the Summoners putting out those numbers are the best geared / Job Master SMNs. If every SMN could put out those numbers then I could see your point.
Doesn't matter if "every" smn can't. Enough can that it invalidates all content and removes all difficulty - literally no other job in the entire game can do this. It's a problem. As time goes on, it becomes a bigger problem as more and more geared master summoners will exist.

The BST change also needed to happen, 100%. I am so glad I did not play during that abomination of a game state, I would've quit this game in disgust and NEVER returned. I'm sure that game state scarred many players and really hurt the games overall player base a lot, so we can't have something like that happen again. Summoner is doing it but it requires gear, while bst didn't, but more and more people are getting smn gear/jp.

[saevel]

And again, I'll state that the Summoners putting out those numbers are the best geared / Job Master SMNs. If every SMN could put out those numbers then I could see your point.

This is incorrect. In the beginning possibly, but now practically any SMN can clear nearly all content using AC SMN zerg. The bar is surprisingly low, much lower then originally thought.

We've already had a situation like this that was corrected before and I'm not talking about BST's. Many moons ago we had legions of BLM's lining up and time nuking / bursting NM's for obscene damage and this method was so safe and easy that it became the gold standard for all challenging content, especially after the Ranger nerf. SE's answer as to create a resistance wall that BLM's chain nuking would rapidly run into. The first two nukes would largely be unaffected but the third and subsequent nuke would rapidly diminish in damage, after a few seconds the resistance reset. This had the effect of not nerfing BLM's individual damage while preventing an army of BLMs from steamrolling everything. Something similar needs to happen to SMN's BP damage, an individual SMN won't be effected but a group of them would be.

And before a SMN gripes about melee's, melee's must stand in range and take the hits from those boss monsters. Those hits hurt and worse yet they inflict very bad status ailments like Doom, Amnesia, Terror, Slow, Paralyze, Virus, Silence, Stat Down, Max HP reduction and so forth.

[Urmom]

And again, I'll state that the Summoners putting out those numbers are the best geared / Job Master SMNs. If every SMN could put out those numbers then I could see your point.

Same thing went for bst (with much smaller numbers to begin with) and look at what happened

[Selindrile]

I hear/heard a lot more people complaining and saying they're quitting over the nerfs, than anyone ever did about the situations that preceded the nerfs.

I don't think any of these nerfs were warranted, Bst, or Geo (even if it was a bug fix).

[saevel]

I hear/heard a lot more people complaining and saying they're quitting over the nerfs

And none of them ever did actually quit, they stopped playing for a day or three then got right back on.

[Selindrile]

And none of them ever did actually quit, they stopped playing for a day or three then got right back on.

While this isn't completely true, I do know a person who quit over the bst nerfs, and another who quit over the Geo nerfs (was a career BLM) and they haven't been back, I'll agree that the sentiment is mostly true. On both sides of the isle people who complain and say they're going to quit over something mostly don't do it.

I was mostly making the point that there is more discontentment and quitting over nerfs, than leaving things imbalanced even if some people think it's too easy. The upheaval and "rug pulled out from under you" effect that happens when someone starts putting effort into a job, only to have it be nerfed, and all their work goes to naught, has a far larger negative impact on the community from what I've seen.

[Urmom]

Should check the bst section. While people have more or less given up there used to be people popping in off and on asking if it was safe to come back to the game yet

[Frodnon]

1. Smn is not 100% immune to mob debuffs and mechanics. We're actually quite susceptible to them. Avatars have low def, even with their 50% dt, and are prone to AOE dt or mob focus killing them promptly. Currently bst has effectively 5-7000 hp on their pets and several effective ways to heal and remove enfeebles. Odyllic subterfuge is what we use to avoid enfeebles, but it isn't 100%.

2. Smn is a back row job. Its a mage. SE said this directly during the bst nerf to explain the role differences, they want bst meleeing with pet. Player range was actually increased at some point, from ~18 to ~21 to help with the fact we weren't as far back as whm and blm.

3. Removing conduit will not stop a smn group. 4 smns, 2 cors can put out enough pacts to do schah in a group of 8 without conduit. Nerfing smn damage output will ruin all endgame viability in other situations.

4. The faults of this situation are on other mechanics in the game, namely mob hp scaling, melees requiring extra support, and difficulties of being in melee range.

[Shiyo]

Should check the bst section. While people have more or less given up there used to be people popping in off and on asking if it was safe to come back to the game yet
You can't post on this forum without an active sub.


1. Smn is not 100% immune to mob debuffs and mechanics. We're actually quite susceptible to them. Avatars have low def, even with their 50% dt, and are prone to AOE dt or mob focus killing them promptly. Currently bst has effectively 5-7000 hp on their pets and several effective ways to heal and remove enfeebles. Odyllic subterfuge is what we use to avoid enfeebles, but it isn't 100%.

2. Smn is a back row job. Its a mage. SE said this directly during the bst nerf to explain the role differences, they want bst meleeing with pet. Player range was actually increased at some point, from ~18 to ~21 to help with the fact we weren't as far back as whm and blm.

3. Removing conduit will not stop a smn group. 4 smns, 2 cors can put out enough pacts to do schah in a group of 8 without conduit. Nerfing smn damage output will ruin all endgame viability in other situations.

4. The faults of this situation are on other mechanics in the game, namely mob hp scaling, melees requiring extra support, and difficulties of being in melee range.
Your avatars can be resummoned, players can't be resummoned when they die or are amnesiad or terrored etc.

[Frodnon]

An avatar resummon and assault at range is 5+ seconds, a substantial reduction of damage and can cost you harder fights like albumen.

Player getting amnesiad is a complete shutdown on the smn.

[saevel]

Your avatars can be resummoned, players can't be resummoned when they die or are amnesiad or terrored etc.


It's Frod, his only job is SMN. He know it's broken, he knows that the broken component is Astral Conduit on multiple SMN's on a single target. He puts out a lot of redirection and smoke because he doesn't want his only job pushed off the top, he's been waiting years to finally be appreciated.

[saevel]

An avatar resummon and assault at range is 5+ seconds, a substantial reduction of damage and can cost you harder fights like albumen.

Player getting amnesiad is a complete shutdown on the smn.


OMG he can't do anything for a whole 5 seconds, such a trajedy... so out of touch with the game.

That's like the BST's complaining they actually need to east food to fight harder content.


How about we do a compromise, SMN keeps it's awesome damage and every time an avatar dies the SMN is inflicted with a 5 minute weakness and has all their buffs wiped. You do have your avatar switch into -DT gear before a TP move right? You are using defensive bubbles like Fade, Wilt or Vex? That's things that regular DD's need to do to survive, so aren't you doing that also?

[Frodnon]

OMG he can't do anything for a whole 5 seconds, such a trajedy... so out of touch with the game.

That's like the BST's complaining they actually need to east food to fight harder content.


How about we do a compromise, SMN keeps it's awesome damage and every time an avatar dies the SMN is inflicted with a 5 minute weakness and has all their buffs wiped. You do have your avatar switch into -DT gear before a TP move right? You are using defensive bubbles like Fade, Wilt or Vex? That's things that regular DD's need to do to survive, so aren't you doing that also?

5 seconds lost is easily 4 pacts, at 50k each thats 200k lost damage. A hard aoe that kills all avatars around the mob will cull enough damage to cost a run.

Gear swapping via macro or otherwise during conduit is a terrible idea. You should be hammering the bloodpact either via 1line macro or menu and any delay or post macro swap can set you to bp in the wrong gear.

I'm not dealing with dt because i'm a backline job at proper distance coupled with the fact that enmity between player and pet is separate. Avatars are disposable tissues compared to jugpets.

Astral flow isn't broken because i can do similar strats without it. There are other core mechanics of the game that need adressing. Hp scaling, mob fight concepts, melee survivability all need to be adressed.

[Nyarlko]

OMG he can't do anything for a whole 5 seconds, such a trajedy... so out of touch with the game.

That's like the BST's complaining they actually need to east food to fight harder content.


How about we do a compromise, SMN keeps it's awesome damage and every time an avatar dies the SMN is inflicted with a 5 minute weakness and has all their buffs wiped. You do have your avatar switch into -DT gear before a TP move right? You are using defensive bubbles like Fade, Wilt or Vex? That's things that regular DD's need to do to survive, so aren't you doing that also?

5sec of a 30sec ability is a loss of 16.66%, which is definitely big enough to notice. If you were missing 1 out of 5 WS, would you consider it a good thing?

Don't think I've ever heard a BST complain about eating food in the last 2yrs, nor have I, so I have no idea what you're talking about there. :/

[Shiyo]

5 seconds lost is easily 4 pacts, at 50k each thats 200k lost damage. A hard aoe that kills all avatars around the mob will cull enough damage to cost a run.

Gear swapping via macro or otherwise during conduit is a terrible idea. You should be hammering the bloodpact either via 1line macro or menu and any delay or post macro swap can set you to bp in the wrong gear.

I'm not dealing with dt because i'm a backline job at proper distance coupled with the fact that enmity between player and pet is separate. Avatars are disposable tissues compared to jugpets.

Astral flow isn't broken because i can do similar strats without it. There are other core mechanics of the game that need adressing. Hp scaling, mob fight concepts, melee survivability all need to be adressed.
No, the entire game doesn't need to be redesigned because of a single job. That one single job needs to be changed(read: nerfed).

I love summoner, I think it's so cool and unique. I always miss my summoner whenever I play another MMO because no other MMO has a job like SMN. However, with how summoner is in it's current state, and how it's just a fotm job, I feel horrible ever being on my summoner and playing it.

I want to not feel horrible being on my summoner and not like a bluemage/bst player.

5sec of a 30sec ability is a loss of 16.66%, which is definitely big enough to notice. If you were missing 1 out of 5 WS, would you consider it a good thing?

Don't think I've ever heard a BST complain about eating food in the last 2yrs, nor have I, so I have no idea what you're talking about there. :/
If I miss 1/5 WS, I don't really complain. If I could WS while bypassing 100% of enemy mechanics and never die, I'd probably be bored out of my mind because there'd be no risk or challenge, only reward. I don't understand this smn main mindset of "well uh I lose 5 seconds of DPS!" and "well we're not op see, just every boss is badly designed!". Like, hello? If a DD dies they lose damage for FIVE minutes.

It's been SEVEN months, it's time to bring challenge back to this game and remove smn AC zerging. It's absolutely insane that this has been allowed to go on for SO long.

Do these developers care so little about their game that they'll let one single job completely ruin it and destroy it?

To add to all this:

If you aren't allowed to get an aeonic from brew killing NM's why are you allowed to get them from AC burning them? AC burning is literally easier and faster.

I'll quote someone here:


I'm pretty sure conduit is so damn broken its even faster than brewing.

Ive brewed WOC and it takes around 2 minutes give or take... conduit with 2 smns takes around 30 seconds. (never brewed albumen)

So explain why something stronger than brewing is allowed but brewing isn't allowed for kill credit. Brews are LITERALLY game shark, what does that make AC burning? Beat the game button?

Beat a game button: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUeeFybkRxA

[Fenrirlb]

the tears are enormous in this thread ... how about playing without SMN in your Party if its too easy for you? Or trying to play with 1 Hand? In a Handstand? With closed Eyes? Create your own Challenge.

[Shiyo]

the tears are enormous in this thread ... how about playing without SMN in your Party if its too easy for you? Or trying to play with 1 Hand? In a Handstand? With closed Eyes? Create your own Challenge.
No. This is a MMORPG.

[Frodnon]

No, the entire game doesn't need to be redesigned because of a single job. That one single job needs to be changed(read: nerfed).

I love summoner, I think it's so cool and unique. I always miss my summoner whenever I play another MMO because no other MMO has a job like SMN. However, with how summoner is in it's current state, and how it's just a fotm job, I feel horrible ever being on my summoner and playing it.

I want to not feel horrible being on my summoner and not like a bluemage/bst player.

If I miss 1/5 WS, I don't really complain. If I could WS while bypassing 100% of enemy mechanics and never die, I'd probably be bored out of my mind because there'd be no risk or challenge, only reward. I don't understand this smn main mindset of "well uh I lose 5 seconds of DPS!" and "well we're not op see, just every boss is badly designed!". Like, hello? If a DD dies they lose damage for FIVE minutes.

It's been SEVEN months, it's time to bring challenge back to this game and remove smn AC zerging. It's absolutely insane that this has been allowed to go on for SO long.

Do these developers care so little about their game that they'll let one single job completely ruin it and destroy it?

To add to all this:

If you aren't allowed to get an aeonic from brew killing NM's why are you allowed to get them from AC burning them? AC burning is literally easier and faster.

I'll quote someone here:



So explain why something stronger than brewing is allowed but brewing isn't allowed for kill credit. Brews are LITERALLY game shark, what does that make AC burning? Beat the game button?

Beat a game button: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUeeFybkRxA

Remove AC: i can still easy-button the vast majority of escha content.
Cut normal BP DPS: ruins SMN in more standard situations, SMN already cannot keep up with dedicated Melee DD, the gulf would worsen.

In order to balance the game and preserve an even level of competitiveness for SMN as a DD, other core game mechanics need to be balanced.

Omen is a great example of proper content. SMN is a great DD, but on all 6 bosses, there is no 100-0 conduit strategy because each boss is able to easily kill avatars or hard-stop the fight. There's also no HP scaling, so larger groups can compete on an even playing field.

Right now on Asura there are still 3x the number of BLUs there are of SMN. Which is the bandwagon job?

[Shiyo]

Expecting the entire game to be redesigned because your ONE JOB completely bypasses the entire games mechanics and ignores 100% of boss mechanics is one of the most absurd things I've ever seen on a MMORPG forum. Actually, what's more absurd is people are UPVOTING your posts, which is just depressing, but I guess it makes sense, MMO players are attracted to easymode gear/zero difficulty jobs/playstyles.

Your job is broken, it needs to be gutted. Classes shouldn't be able to safely DPS from range ignoring 100% of a bosses mechanics while also being able to do the most damage in the entire game.

Your job is LITERALLY more effective and powerful than using a brew, that speaks volumes about how truly broken SMN is.

[Selindrile]

MMO players are attracted to easymode gear/zero difficulty jobs/playstyles.

So, you'd rather FFXI be less attractive to MMO players.... think about that for a second.

[Selindrile]

Right now on Asura there are still 3x the number of BLUs there are of SMN. Which is the bandwagon job?

At this very moment on Asura there are 3x the number of THFs as there are SMN, I'm not calling for SMN (or anything) to be nerfed, quite the opposite, I'm just pointing out, a lot of this has to do with solo utility rather than event usage that people are talking about.

[Frodnon]

Expecting the entire game to be redesigned because your ONE JOB completely bypasses the entire games mechanics and ignores 100% of boss mechanics is one of the most absurd things I've ever seen on a MMORPG forum. Actually, what's more absurd is people are UPVOTING your posts, which is just depressing, but I guess it makes sense, MMO players are attracted to easymode gear/zero difficulty jobs/playstyles.

Your job is broken, it needs to be gutted. Classes shouldn't be able to safely DPS from range ignoring 100% of a bosses mechanics while also being able to do the most damage in the entire game.

Your job is LITERALLY more effective and powerful than using a brew, that speaks volumes about how truly broken SMN is.


I'm wanting the core game to be fixed because there are issues with it that led to our current situation. Fix the problems of the game instead of simply chasing the symptoms of those issues.


just nerfing smn into the dirt won't fix the fact that melee DD are considered garbage in 90% of cases against endgame. Just removing HP scaling mechanics alone from Geas Fete mobs would balance it so other party member heavy setups could compete on even ground.
Hell, tweaking schah so he spawns with a pet up would stop burning him (or at least make it much more complicated).

[Shiyo]

I'm wanting the core game to be fixed because there are issues with it that led to our current situation. Fix the problems of the game instead of simply chasing the symptoms of those issues.


just nerfing smn into the dirt won't fix the fact that melee DD are considered garbage in 90% of cases against endgame. Just removing HP scaling mechanics alone from Geas Fete mobs would balance it so other party member heavy setups could compete on even ground.
Hell, tweaking schah so he spawns with a pet up would stop burning him (or at least make it much more complicated).
Is this post from 2015? Melee DD"s have been good for 2 years now, omen made them even beter.

[Nyarlko]

Is this post from 2015? Melee DD"s have been good for 2 years now, omen made them even beter.

Why are you complaining about SMN then? >_>;;

I'm gonna laugh my butt off if allllll of this argument comes down to a matter of kill-speed alone being the primary point of contention. Let me ask you this: If the durations on all the nasty spammed debuffs in Escha zones were reduced to 10sec, and direct damage from them reduced to a point unlikely to one-shot melee players, would there be any legitimate reasons to complain about SMN? Honestly, at that point, I'd say it comes down to healer quality rather than who's dealing the damage. If that's still too much for an average WHM to handle, that sounds like healing is what needs the attention rather than calling for nerfs to SMN.

[Shiyo]

Answer to your question has been answered multiple times in people posts by me and other people. Please read before you reply to things(you never do).

[Nyarlko]

Answer to your question has been answered multiple times in people posts by me and other people. Please read before you reply to things(you never do).

My point was that you shot yourself in the foot in your argument. If melee DDs are good enough to complete the content, then why spew venom at SMN?

[Shiyo]

My point was that you shot yourself in the foot in your argument. If melee DDs are good enough to complete the content, then why spew venom at SMN?
No, that is not what I did. Read peoples posts before replying to them.

[Urmom]

My point was that you shot yourself in the foot in your argument. If melee DDs are good enough to complete the content, then why spew venom at SMN?

Difference is smn is only really great during AC and even that only really shines in events with strict timers and hp scaling and usually annoying mechanics. Even mnk could probably compete with smn outside of AC and if mob isn't scaling and easily beaten most wont care.

As such a search wont be effective tool as the smn will be fighting a mob for 1 minute and while you'll stay on melee throughout an event like omen or doing ambuscade ad naseum or killing the lesser difficulty nms. For that matter with omen you'll often see people on whatever they want cards from not what is good