A reworked case for the discrepency between REM weapons and A

[wfoley]

I tried posting this on other areas and mostly met with negative feedback from a vocal minority, so I thought to bring it here and hope developers see it.

Bottom line upfront, there is too much of a disparity between ultimate weapons in terms of time to make them and power received.

Over the course of my FF11 career, I have made 3 mythics, 2 empyreans, 2 ergons, and 3 aeonics. I wanted to start with that as a way of saying, I have done the processes and am not just whining.

I really feel like some of the multi-month grinds to make endgame weapons are a bit too much at 15 years into a game. I know they have become easier with time, but some of them are still sooooo time consuming. Not only that, but some of the longer quests create inferior weapons to those that can be done in a week. The reward to time ratio for them just isn’t right.

Additionally, many of these ultimate weapons are needed or at least highly desired to clear endgame (here defined as T3-T4 Reisen, Ambu VD vol1, and Omen). Which means that, if a new player wants to play one of the jobs that needs the weapons, and do endgame content, they can expect a many month delay before they can start content. Weapons I consider in this category are Idris, Relic and Empyrean bard instruments, Aegis for Pld (though I will admit, it is the fastest REM to make to a useful level).

Assumptions I make: On my server, Asura, farming alexandrite in salvage 2 is the most efficient way to make money for new players. I average 85 alex per run and a run takes 20 min. I time it to get 3 runs in an hour every morning. If there is a better way to make money for the average player, please share as this is the limiting step for time for my math/argument. This also means veterans with leveled crafting who make millions in a day are not the people I am aiming this at.

VD Intense Ambu can be more lucrative if 1. It is beatable. 2. It isn’t congested because it is beatable. You need circa 3 VD intense ambu per hour to beat alexandrite farming. I would argue the people that can do more than that per hour are already well geared and thus not a good comparison for new players making their first legendary weapon. The average new player will not clear VD intense ambu 3+ times per hour. Additionally, when VD Intense ambu is beatable, the waits are often 20-30 minutes, making it not profitable.

[wfoley]

Let’s start with the baseline. ** edited in some changes per various player suggestions
Aeonics
Obviously a catch 22 as you need to be well geared to make them, but ignoring that. Pre reqs: 50k beads. Normally I would do 3 dragons an hour (depending on number of people and kill time). That came out to about 17 hours farming beads. I broke that down into smaller chunks and normally over a weekend plus 1-2 weekdays, I would be ready to start. From there, my LS completes the full aeonic clear in about 10 hours over 5 weeks (we take it pretty easy). So as a baseline, an aeonic takes about 24-27 hours of in game time to make but no money is required. It can cost up to 10m to make all pops. Also, incursion bosses must be farmed for coffers for Reisen T2. If done during a campaign, this adds another 2 hours to time. The cost to make the weapon can be split between the group and often is largely offset from selling +2 lixirs, and eschite ore. While not free, Aeonics end up having a very low net cost. Additionally, for many DD jobs, these weapons are up there as the top 3 possible choices for damage dealing weapons. Total time 30 hours with a group that knows what they are doing. As high as 60 hours if forming PUG shout groups has been reported to me.

Mythics
Time to prep for quest:
5 hours to do all assaults to capt rank for me.
Another hour of time for all 9 einherjar clears. I know you can only do 1 per hour, but 6 minutes per run*10 runs= 60 min.
Maybe another hour for all salvage clears.
And about 4 hours for nyzul 100.
We'll say 10 hours to prep.
Cost: 320m to buy all alex and afterglow it, approx.
time to farm that: 469 salvage 2 runs. Approx. 156 hours time.
Nyzul tokens: Averaging 30 min per run and 2k tokens per run = 38 hours
Therion ichor: aprox 13 hours for 52 runs at 15 min per run (includes time to get lamp, run there, and do event)
Bottom line: Mythics cost either 320m + 51 hours after prep or 217 hours if you farm it all yourself including prep. This can be many months for a new player, if not a year. Now, that wouldn’t be as bad, except that some of these weapons are inferior to Aeonics. They can take over 10x as long to make and be worse than a weapon you make for free in a week.

Ergons
It's approximately 6 MONTHS of prep to get legendary in each coalition to start an ergon quest.
While ergons do ask for other materials other than HPB, their cost is rather insignificant for price.
For ergons, you need 13999 HPB. On my server, that's about 250m. Approx. looking at 367 salvage 2 runs or about 122 hours of time. That's why I did both ergon rather than another mythic as it took me about half the time. Neither ergon needs ag in order to be useable by their job. Idris more so than epeolatry is game changing for Geo and pretty much required for top tier hardest fights. The 6 months lead in for starting it are probably the biggest problem as just farming for 122 hours is pretty reasonable for an ultimate weapon, but 6 months of waiting is a bit much.

Empyreans
Let's call all of the nm timed farms up to first abyssea trial the pre-req time. Then you are looking at about 16-20 up to 50 hours of prep time for empyreans, depending on RNG for NM pops.
Farming your 50 empyrean items: Doing this recently, I averaged 1 pop every 5-10 min (let's say 8 average) and 1-2 drops per kill (average 1.2). That’s about 6 hours for this step, but RNG can frown on you, so lets say 8.
75 abyssea items: same math, 10 hours.
The heavy metal plates: using my server prices, 1500 x 90,000k=135m
cinders=1m x 60= 60m
riftborn bolders=10k x 5k=50m
Total cost=245m , 360 salvage 2 runs, 120 hours for buyables+50h for pre-reqs+30h ish for abyssea (per other testimonials from other players) = ~155 200 hours. This is about the same amount of time as Mythics, but these weapons often outclass their mythic counterpart. They also suffer from the problem that some of them are weaker than aeonics, so the same problem as mythics.

Relics
First off, I have never made one, so this section is based purely on numbers and hypothesis.
Average cost to make base weapon, excluding final 30x100 piece loan: 50-60m, depending on weapon. To bring it to 99, 5m. To AG it, 100m. Total: say 160m (60m for horn and shield). That comes to 79 hours of farming for relic weapons (30 hours for shield and horn). Having said all of that, with a few exceptions, relics are probably the weakest of the legendary weapons, so aeonics aside, it makes sense that they are the fastest REM to build as they are often the weakest. But again compared to aeonics, you invest 3x as much time to make an inferior weapon.

[wfoley]

What is all of this to say? Well, Aeonics aside, all of the legendary weapons require either huge time or financial inputs to make. Compared to Aeonic weapons that can literally be built in a week, some of the Legendary weapons can take up to a year to make if you are a new player.


To me, this is a bit extreme. I feel like all of the legendary weapons should be make-able in the same time frame OR their power should be commensurate with the time/money involved. If a mythic is going to take 10x as much time to make, its power or utility should make it 10x as powerful. On the flip side, if developers want them to be sidegrade or alternatives, then the requirements should be lessened.

For example, Alexandrite should be maybe 3k, nyzul token 15k, therion ichor 10k, hmp 150…etc. Except for relics (because I am less familiar with them), I almost feel a 90% reduction on materials is needed for these weapons (maybe 50% for relics). In order to bring them in line with the time it takes to make an Aeonic.

What ultimately drove me to post here is the number of people nay saying my comments with no facts to back up theirs. The common arguments I heard against this were:
1. It doesn't take that long to make them.
Well, if you have the money already it doesn’t take long at all. But I am talking about the average new player. And as I said, if you have better ways to make money, share.
2. You don’t need any of these items for endgame.
Well, by what I defined as endgame, YOU might not NEED any REMAs to clear Reisen T3-4, Omen, and VD vol 1 ambu, if you have 5 other people with REMAs or similar levels of gear. In particular, the support REMAs are rather necessary for most of these content.
3. People would quit once they made a REMA.
No evidence for this at all. Tons of people have made REMAs and we still have people playing. Did some quit, sure. All, not even close.
4. There's no other long term content to do for players.
a. omen card farming
b. master jobs
c. level and gear other jobs
d. craft

[Nyarlko]

The only disagreement I have with your manifesto is that Aeonics are technically not "free". There are pop items involved in the process, some of which are far from cheap. "Practically free compared to REM" might be a better way to put it. XD

The biggest objection I have to the way things are now is the amazingly painful prep time for Ergons. Would it really hurt much of anything to reduce the unavoidable amount of time it currently takes to get all coalitions up to Legendary? I still feel like they just forgot to add a reduction in Imprimatur charge time and/or increased cap to RoV KI bonuses. :/

[detlef]

Your suggestions just make things way too easy. Like ridiculously fall out of bed, make a weapon easy. That'll be the new baseline, where you're essentially expected to have the weapon on your resume and if you don't have it, you're resume is immediately thrown into the trash. And Aeonics aren't THAT easy to make for a casual player. They may be easier on Asura because everybody mercs everything but aren't mercs like 200m? Something in that range with an adjustment might be more in line with what your estimate for Aeonic effort should be because Aeonics require much more player coordination (if you don't conduit them all of course) than all the other legendary weapons combined.

Keep in mind that while it'll become vastly easier to crank out weapon after weapon for a lot more players, there will still be players who can't keep up with the content in that way who will be even more SOL.

And yes, it will really hurt a lot of players who put a lot of effort into their weapons. I was paying 200k per Beitetsu when they first introduced the unified Afterglow weapon. They're about 7k each now and that's okay. Everything gets easier over time. I paid 35k for HPB, often only being able to buy 1-2 at a time. And that too is okay. But what's not okay would be for someone else to come along and only need 1000 HPB compared to the 13,099 I needed at 20k (and falling) for an Idris. Can't lie, that'll hurt.

[Urmom]

I'd like to add that there are other ways of farming beads. With a couple of people you can kill t1 reisin in seconds. Forget just how much it was per kill but pretty sure was over 100. So can be decently faster than dragons. Also you'd be surprised how much you get over time just cping in escha areas

[wfoley]

And yes, it will really hurt a lot of players who put a lot of effort into their weapons. I was paying 200k per Beitetsu when they first introduced the unified Afterglow weapon. They're about 7k each now and that's okay. Everything gets easier over time. I paid 35k for HPB, often only being able to buy 1-2 at a time. And that too is okay. But what's not okay would be for someone else to come along and only need 1000 HPB compared to the 13,099 I needed at 20k (and falling) for an Idris. Can't lie, that'll hurt.

I'm sorry, but the "it was hard for me so it should be hard for other people too" doesn't hold. Wanting others to suffer because you suffered or "because it is the way it has always been done" are hurtful to a society as a whole. Wanting to keep a hard requirement because it serves a purpose is one thing, but wanting others to suffer because you did isn't the right mindset.

[wfoley]

The only disagreement I have with your manifesto is that Aeonics are technically not "free". There are pop items involved in the process, some of which are far from cheap. "Practically free compared to REM" might be a better way to put it. XD
:/

That's a fair point. I never built the pops with my LS so I honestly didn't consider them in the 'cost' for aeonics. Anyone who has made them, about what does an average aeonic run cost?

[detlef]

I'm sorry, but the "it was hard for me so it should be hard for other people too" doesn't hold. Wanting others to suffer because you suffered or "because it is the way it has always been done" are hurtful to a society as a whole. Wanting to keep a hard requirement because it serves a purpose is one thing, but wanting others to suffer because you did isn't the right mindset.I said I don't mind things becoming easier for people over time. I literally said that I didn't have a problem with it twice in the part of my post that you quoted. What you're suggesting is far too extreme and would rightfully hurt players who have put the effort in.

And is that the only part of my post you're going to reply to? What about the other stuff I wrote? I think you're using a faulty baseline for Aeonics which is the basis for your entire argument. You need the following:
1) To surround yourself with a competent group of players who can tackle all WoC and the T4s;
2) To save up 200m or whatever the going rate is to merc an Aeonic; or
3) Make a SMN group and cheese it.

You're saying all legendary weapons should be able to be made in the same time frame as an Aeonic, but the estimate you're using for the Aeonic process really is the best-case scenario: 27 hours for a well-geared player with multiple useful raid jobs with strong player connections and a good play schedule.

I do agree with two things you said: Mythics should be stronger and the Ergon prereq process is excessive.

[wfoley]

Well, you said you don't mind it getting easier, then said it would hurt a lot of people's feelings. Why is a price drop due to new content adding the currency ok, but a cost drop due to decreased requirements? By your numbers, it was a 96% price drop as beitetsu supply increased...I suggest the same thing but on SEs side.

I can reply to the rest, I didn't see it as asking for a response before, but ok.
Sure Aeonics can take longer to make. So can farming to make gil for other weapons. I based my numbers off a group that goes slowly, but knows every fight. I know numerous people have quoted the time it takes them to merc a clear as 4 hours so 10 is well outside of the best of the best.
1. I concede this point at the beginning, admitting that it is a catch 22 saying you need to be geared in order to do it. A new player could easily fill 4 slots in our group and no one would notice as long as they do their job (sch making skill chains, whm, or 2 cors that buff only) so it isn't unreasonable to say that 10 hours for a new player to make a weapon.
2. I was basing it off making the weapon as a new player, not buying one.
3. A smn group cheesing it for fast wins is still a legitimate method to win if you want to do it that way. I based my estimates off what an average new player would do. Could they opt for smn burning all things? Sure. They could do shout groups, make their own, get their wins even faster than I suggested. That's why I felt my estimate was a reasonable middle ground.

I didn't just say they should all take the same time. I said if they are sidegrades they should, if one is supposed to be more powerful, then it is ok for it to take longer.

[detlef]

Well, you said you don't mind it getting easier, then said it would hurt a lot of people's feelings. Why is a price drop due to new content adding the currency ok, but a cost drop due to decreased requirements? By your numbers, it was a 96% price drop as beitetsu supply increased...I suggest the same thing but on SEs side.Well, RME reforging has been around since November of 2013. Originally you could only get singles and pouches of 3-15 from Delve. That's the time I was talking about paying out the nose for RME upgrades. That huge price drop occurred over the course of 3.5 years. The situation was complicated by the fact that at the time, you only needed 300 singles to 119 your weapon as the 10k Afterglow upgrade didn't exist yet. So maybe not a good example to use.

Why is a price drop due to to increased supply okay? I guess I would say because it happened gradually and pretty naturally in a way players are accustomed to. Everyone accepts that things will slowly become easier over time. That's just my opinion though, other people might be okay with one or both. To me, reducing the cost is a lot more palatable than reducing the requirement.


Sure Aeonics can take longer to make. So can farming to make gil for other weapons. I based my numbers off a group that goes slowly, but knows every fight. I know numerous people have quoted the time it takes them to merc a clear as 4 hours so 10 is well outside of the best of the best.Yes, exactly. A group. Aeonics are balanced by the fact that all your progress needs to be in a group setting with other good players on the right jobs playing on the right schedule. If you have the connections then it's a pretty straightforward process. For a lot of players, an Aeonic is completely off the table because of this. It's really hard to compare Relics/Mythics/Empyreans to Aeonics because the investment can vary so much from player to player. It's not just gil or time spent playing (although it can be), it's about connections and networking.

Basically I'm just saying that Aeonics aren't as easy as you think for everybody and therefore shouldn't be used as a point of reference when looking at how to adjust the other weapons. I know you're saying that the efforts should be balanced based on strength, but you're basing it all on Aeonic effort and I feel you're vastly discounting it, especially for players who don't have ready-made networks of capable players at their disposal.

Oh, I did want to touch on the expectation that every player would be expected to have every important weapon for any job they came on. I think right now, a Dunna is what you'd expect every pickup GEO to have. Is it better for the game if the new baseline becomes an Idris? I'm not so sure it is.

[wfoley]

I do concede that a group is required for Aeonics, but more than once we shouted to fill a slot we needed. Heck, I joined my group by shouting in town that I was interested. Now, while I was super geared at the time on numerous jobs, I was asked to come on one I wasn't. I could have been a brand new player and would have been just as fine off. I didn't have any connections before that shout. That's why I don't consider it out of the realm of possibility for all players to acquire them. Now, if you mean some people are asocial and want to play an MMO without interacting with people (Altana knows I fall into that category at times) then ya, solo you will never make an aeonic, but that is completely by choice.

I would be willing to concede a solo player making shout groups for all clears would take longer to make an Aeonic, perhaps on the order of 50 hours, so comparable to a Relic weapon, but still orders of magnitude faster than making a Mythic.

Your last point, forgive me but I'm not sure if you're saying I said something about expecting players to be geared or adding that you would expect all players coming to events to be geared with certain minimums. I would love to believe that the average new player would get certain minimum gear before attempting serious party content, but I don't see it happen all the time. Just this week I have had 2 parties with bards with only 2 songs and 1 geo without dunna trying to do vd ambuscade 2. I would personally get at least oboro items for those jobs before saying I could come as them, but I don't see everyone else do the same. It's because of people like this that I find myself being snobby myself and requesting REMA caliber people for my own parties...I don't want more 2 song bards or non-dunna geos.

By all means, I do not think Idris should be the baseline for all content. What I said was that, if a new geo wants to do endgame content (defined as reisen t3-4, omen and vd ambu 1 by me) that Idris is required and they can't even start it for 6 months. Without a doubt that 6 month road block needs to be removed. It will still take them a few months to farm for the currency for Idris, but they are free to make it as fast as they want to...not as fast as SE says they are allowed.

[Afania]

I tried posting this on other areas and mostly met with negative feedback from a vocal minority, so I thought to bring it here and hope developers see it.



Just FYI if you think anyone that's against your opinion are "Vocal minority". This "I want REM to be made faster" debate has been posted on OF, AH.com and every forum over and over, and almost every time there are people against the idea just because most players that like FFXI like the fact that it doesn't offer instant gratification and fast achievement like other MMOs.

Last time SE tried to phase out legendary in 2013 subscription dropped...A LOT, including JP side of things.


I'm sorry, but the "it was hard for me so it should be hard for other people too" doesn't hold. Wanting others to suffer because you suffered or "because it is the way it has always been done" are hurtful to a society as a whole. Wanting to keep a hard requirement because it serves a purpose is one thing, but wanting others to suffer because you did isn't the right mindset.

Claiming playing the game is "suffering" is one major reason why many FFXI players are against your opinion, we're not even on the same page. You view playing FFXI differently and that's not how it should be.


Wanting to keep a hard requirement because it serves a purpose is one thing, but wanting others to suffer because you did isn't the right mindset.

I recalled long time ago when I went to my cousin's house, they were playing JRPGs. They skipped every single dialogue and CS so they get to boss as soon as possible, as if the purpose of playing RPG is to fight the boss. Then they start using cheat codes, so they can get to fight the boss even faster. I can't help but wonder what's the point of playing like that.....watching story and CS is the entire purpose of playing JRPG, killing boss is just the journey.

Same goes for REMA and gears. The way you talk about playing FFXI, it sound like working on REMA for your job is just "work" and "suffering", before getting one you're left out in cold and live a terrible life, every penny that you paid for subscription fee is just a waste of money because you're not really playing FFXI until you get a REMA or beat T4, this is just not right.

The entire purpose of playing FFXI is the satisfaction of long, long journey. After lots of time investment, you finally get there. Killing the boss is just journey, the satisfaction that comes after massive time investment is the real goal of playing. Therefore, removing the time barrier completely remove the entire purpose of the game, and what it's built on.

Saying new players can't do endgame without REMA or good gear is also false. They may not be able to do the HARDEST endgame, but they can do other content such as Ambu vol2, escha T1~T3, SR, vagary, incursion, delve etc. You sound like only the hardest endgame count as playing, doing everything else isn't playing, just suffering. Which I don't agree with.

I recently reactivated a friends character in abyssea gears, she has no problem doing easier content in very oudated gears at all.

Basically, removing the time barrier from completing a weapon, or a gear, totally goes against game's original design and it decrease game's lifespan.



By all means, I do not think Idris should be the baseline for all content. What I said was that, if a new geo wants to do endgame content (defined as reisen t3-4, omen and vd ambu 1 by me)

So, if someone is new to the game, what's wrong with doing escha T1~T2, SR, ambu vol2, incursion, vagary for 6 months THEN move to reisen T3-T4, omen, vd ambu1? They ARE supposed to go through this process because it's part of playing.


hurtful to a society as a whole.

How'd be "hurtful" to a society that players can't clear the hardest content in a month in a video game that is designed to be played for years?

[Nyarlko]

That's a fair point. I never built the pops with my LS so I honestly didn't consider them in the 'cost' for aeonics. Anyone who has made them, about what does an average aeonic run cost?

Off the top of my head, I know that ER T3 pops run ~1mil each normally, as does Worm Mulch for one of the Reisenjima HELMs. At least a few pops require specific crafts to synth, which could be hard to track down. While many pops are on the cheaper side, even T1 pops run ~10k/each on average which adds up. Reisenjima T2 pops require self-completion/farming of Incursion, which is going to be a challenge for many.

Even worst case scenario, Aeonic costs less gil than REM once you add up the cost of pops. It's not "free" though. Also, if you are calculating/comparing time requirements between farming each of REMA, then you should also account for stuff like the Incursion farming, Delves to farm ER T3 pops, etc. If you are going to exclude that type of stuff, then you would also need to exclude the farming time for Relics since you could always just buy all the currency and have the base weapon done in a few hours (whatever wait time the gobbie requires to complete his tasks.)

[Afania]

If you are going to exclude that type of stuff, then you would also need to exclude the farming time for Relics since you could always just buy all the currency and have the base weapon done in a few hours (whatever wait time the gobbie requires to complete his tasks.)

This, from my experience, avg gil/hr from merc on 1 character is about 5m/hr. If you merc harder stuff with a group or multi box, gil gain per hour would double or triple. That makes relic time required somewhere around 15hr to 30hr depending on your situations.

Dyna is a horrible way to farm gil and most of the accomplished character, with the ability to clear aeonic in 2 days don't farm gil in dyna. It isn't fair to compare accomplished character aeonic farming speed v.s a new or returning player that can only rely on dyna to farm gil. Otherwise I'd say the time investment on gearing aeonic friendly jobs or connection building count as time required for aeonic as well.

[Pups323]

Just to comment on the 'cost of aeonics'
its about 1.5m for zi tah. But if you subtract +2 elixirs and its basicaly free. Split it 18 ways... even if you dont count +2 elixir, its still only 80k (more likely 0k) a person.

Ruaun is about 10m, but you have more potential for profit with eschite ore on t4+, average cost after sellables on AH is about 5m, which is about 300k per person

I havent calculated resinjime yet, but the trend is about 1-2 salvage 2 runs covers the cost of an aeonic, so 1 hr tops of farming.

[Nyarlko]

This, from my experience, avg gil/hr from merc on 1 character is about 5m/hr. If you merc harder stuff with a group or multi box, gil gain per hour would double or triple. That makes relic time required somewhere around 15hr to 30hr depending on your situations.

Dyna is a horrible way to farm gil and most of the accomplished character, with the ability to clear aeonic in 2 days don't farm gil in dyna. It isn't fair to compare accomplished character aeonic farming speed v.s a new or returning player that can only rely on dyna to farm gil. Otherwise I'd say the time investment on gearing aeonic friendly jobs or connection building count as time required for aeonic as well.

If we are comparing REMA times/costs to each other, then it should be compared at the baseline "solo farming" basis in order to make a fair comparison. Being able to buy your way through is something to note/recalculate after the baseline is determined.

[wfoley]

Just FYI if you think anyone that's against your opinion are "Vocal minority". This "I want REM to be made faster" debate has been posted on OF, AH.com and every forum over and over, and almost every time there are people against the idea just because most players that like FFXI like the fact that it doesn't offer instant gratification and fast achievement like other MMOs.

Last time SE tried to phase out legendary in 2013 subscription dropped...A LOT, including JP side of things.

It's not that I think contrary points of view are vocal minorities. There were specifically 3 people, you included, posting well over 60 messages about them being against the idea. 3 people being very vocal is the definition of a vocal minority. As for the rest...phasing out relics in 2013 vs lowering the cost is completely different. A price cut on a new car doesn't mean that car will not be around for others to buy. That is a terribly reasoning as it isn't what I suggest at all.




Claiming playing the game is "suffering" is one major reason why many FFXI players are against your opinion, we're not even on the same page. You view playing FFXI differently and that's not how it should be.

The player I was talking with about that specifically said he/she did it the hard way and many people would be upset if it wasn't hard for new people. Perhaps suffering is a bad word for my analogy, but the idea that it was hard for me so it should be hard for you is wrong, plain and simple.



I recalled long time ago when I went to my cousin's house, they were playing JRPGs. They skipped every single dialogue and CS so they get to boss as soon as possible, as if the purpose of playing RPG is to fight the boss. Then they start using cheat codes, so they can get to fight the boss even faster. I can't help but wonder what's the point of playing like that.....watching story and CS is the entire purpose of playing JRPG, killing boss is just the journey.
...stuff
But by your analogy, making REMAs is the point of this game and the only thing people should do to enjoy it. We differ on opinions there. I feel like weapons were designed to serve a purpose...beating content. While I do admit some people only play for making the weapons, but it is unfair to insinuate that making long term weapons is the purpose of an mmo. There are plenty of other long term goals people can have in this game, they don't all have to be making weapons. If that's yours, that's fine, but it isn't everyones. Nor is my opinion representative of everyone's ideal game.



Saying new players can't do endgame without REMA or good gear is also false. They may not be able to do the HARDEST endgame, but they can do other content such as Ambu vol2, escha T1~T3, SR, vagary, incursion, delve etc. You sound like only the hardest endgame count as playing, doing everything else isn't playing, just suffering. Which I don't agree with.

I specifically listed the events I consider end game which was the hardest content. I never said easier content couldn't be done.

It doesn't go against the game's design to make things easier. It takes 1-2 hours to power level to 99 now. That's a heck of a lot easier than it used to be. Why was it ok for that long journey to be shortened? Hitting max level originally took a very long time on some jobs. The developers finally said that leveling wasn't the point of the game. What's to say they couldnt decide month long quests are also not the point of the game?

[wfoley]

This, from my experience, avg gil/hr from merc on 1 character is about 5m/hr. If you merc harder stuff with a group or multi box, gil gain per hour would double or triple. That makes relic time required somewhere around 15hr to 30hr depending on your situations.

Dyna is a horrible way to farm gil and most of the accomplished character, with the ability to clear aeonic in 2 days don't farm gil in dyna. It isn't fair to compare accomplished character aeonic farming speed v.s a new or returning player that can only rely on dyna to farm gil. Otherwise I'd say the time investment on gearing aeonic friendly jobs or connection building count as time required for aeonic as well.

Um, I highly doubt a new player could merc for 5m an hour. Which is the point of my post, stating how long an average new player takes.

[wfoley]

Even worst case scenario, Aeonic costs less gil than REM once you add up the cost of pops. It's not "free" though. Also, if you are calculating/comparing time requirements between farming each of REMA, then you should also account for stuff like the Incursion farming, Delves to farm ER T3 pops, etc. If you are going to exclude that type of stuff, then you would also need to exclude the farming time for Relics since you could always just buy all the currency and have the base weapon done in a few hours (whatever wait time the gobbie requires to complete his tasks.)

As I said before, I forgot the pop costs in my original post. I would be more than willing to include that as a cost once we nail down an average value. Having said that, all pops can be bought except for Incursion correct? So I would just need to account for that in time, plus the cost for all pops. Pups is right though, you do get tons of sellable from doing an aeonic run. I know my ls leader kept lixirs +2 and eschite ore to offset the costs and used sparks for the pops he could so I don't think the total net cost is terrible, but would be more than willing to update my original estimate.

[detlef]

The player I was talking with about that specifically said he/she did it the hard way and many people would be upset if it wasn't hard for new people. Perhaps suffering is a bad word for my analogy, but the idea that it was hard for me so it should be hard for you is wrong, plain and simple.I think you mis-characterized what I said. I simply stated that players expect and accept that things gradually become easier to make over time. Given that things have already become so much easier than they were, to further apply a 90% discount on RMEA requirements would be unacceptable. A reduction that significant would be excessive. I think this is a reasonable opinion that a lot of established players would share.


Um, I highly doubt a new player could merc for 5m an hour. Which is the point of my post, stating how long an average new player takes.


I do concede that a group is required for Aeonics, but more than once we shouted to fill a slot we needed. Heck, I joined my group by shouting in town that I was interested. Now, while I was super geared at the time on numerous jobs, I was asked to come on one I wasn't. I could have been a brand new player and would have been just as fine off. I didn't have any connections before that shout. That's why I don't consider it out of the realm of possibility for all players to acquire them.It's interesting that we're talking about "an average new player." In your eyes, this player is extremely limited in money-making capabilities (reasonable assumption) but is somehow savvy enough to simply join an established Aeonic group by shouting in town. I think you're projecting too much based on your own experiences as a self-described super-geared returning player.

This in turn skews your idea of the amount of effort something should take. A lot of players do not have Aeonic weapons, and not for lack of trying. As I've said, the Aeonic monetary cost (negligible) and time cost (low with a good group) is balanced by the need to find a good group of well-geared players with multiple raid jobs who share your schedule and motivation. Aeonics were easy for you but represent a considerable, often impassible hurdle for a lot of the average new players. That's why I don't think it's reasonable to reduce RME requirements based on Aeonic effort.

[wfoley]

1. I don't think I mischaracterized it. You just restated what I said you said. Additionally, it is a false argument to state that "a lot of established players" share your opinion without facts to back it up. It would be as if I stated as if it were fact that most players would support a reduction in requirements. Do I know a couple of people that have said they wish it were easier? Sure. Does that mean most players also agree? No. I think, personally, that an average player with limited time would support any changes in gameplay that make the game less of a time sink. I do not know it to be true though so I don't state it as a fact to make my side of the argument sound better.

Even with my nicely geared jobs, none of them are jobs that can merc 5m an hour. I wish I could. Like I said, my group often filled slots for cor, whm, and skillchaining scholar with new people. One run we brought a summoner. A lot of the times they had shouted to join a group, sometimes we shouted that we needed those slots. Similarly, I see people without static groups shout all the time to make parties and clear content because they want the win. Perhaps that does skew my view on how easy it was to a degree. I do personally feel they are achievable to any player willing to invest the time into finding a group.

All of that aside, even without comparing the time for REMs to Aeonics, I do feel like the process to make some of the REM weapons is not balanced to the reward you get for it. Many mythics and relics can be outclassed by augmented items in reisenjima. Mythics take a large amount more work compared to Empyreans, but the empyreans have some weapons that are largely more powerful.

And having made numerous of the weapons, I wouldn't mind a reduction in time it takes to make them. For me, weapons are not a goal, but a tool to reach other goals. there's plenty of other content that could fill my time that I cant do if I choose to make a weapon due to limited time.

When they sped up leveling, there were a few hold outs who refused to level the fast way. Here and there you see people create nostalgia shells to relive the old content at slow speeds. But did a majority of the players quit just because leveling sped up? I don't think they did. Heck, people have the option to choose if they want to level to 99 in hours or go as slow as they want. Maybe that would be an option. Let people who want long term goals have a slow route, and those with limited time have a faster route. Kind of like how the AG step before they made REMs 121 ilevel. That slow ag step gave a long term goal for some, and other could just be done with it.

[wfoley]

Well, I am always willing to concede when I make a mistake. I have updated the OP per numerous suggestions for some of the times required.

Stompa, while I don't agree with your philosophy that we build a weapon with blinders and love it even if it has poor damage or effects, but I do respect you for stating it as your personal opinion. I do agree that no other game has the sense of accomplishment this one does for ultimate weapons. Having said that, there are some I still want to make, but the time investment is just so brutal after having made them over so many years.

[Afania]

But by your analogy, making REMAs is the point of this game and the only thing people should do to enjoy it. We differ on opinions there. I feel like weapons were designed to serve a purpose...beating content.

I didn't say making weapon is the only goal in this game. I only said it's one of the long term goal in this game and long term goal is what's FFXI built on.

I always envision REMA to be more of a status item that gives small boost to dedicated players, instead of entrance ticket to endgame or something. That's how it's been for years.

Since it's a status item, it's supposed to take lots of time to build, and it's not suppose to massively outclass none REMA. If newer player can't get into endgame because they're too behind without REMA, the solution is to buff none REMA weapons and make them have at least 90% to 95% of performance of REMA, not hand out REMA to everyone like Halloween candies or something. Otherwise it's no longer a status item, it'd be like spark gear or ambuscade gear, you just wear when you need it and toss them when you don't need it anymore.

And why is status item important? Because in an RPG, creating opportunity for players to be unique snowflakes makes the game interesting, because ultimately MMORPG is about people and role playing in a virtual world, not just killing bosses. By creating rare status items player gain sense of accomplishment and satisfaction by playing the game. That's how MMORPG works for ages.

Every time I see a top tier player playing their job, I always find it fun and exciting to see "I never thought this job can be played this way because I've never seen it before." THAT makes the game fun, and immersive. Unique snowflakes doesn't exist in other most other MMO, but it exist in FFXI, simply because certain gears or combination of gears in this game takes lonnnnng time to get and not everyone have them.

And just FYI, with wardrobe 3 and 4 are pretty much mandatory these days, FFXI currently cost $17 a month. By comparison many other MMO cost $10 to $12, most are free to play.

There's absolutely no reason to pay more to play a MMO that's same as FFXIV, or WoW, or GW2, or whatever that's currently on the market that cost less. And that's what you're trying to do currently, asking SE to change FFXI into the same game as everything else on the market.

Tl;dr: The idea of playing the game for 10hr and get an REMA makes the game utterly boring, that's why I'm against it. I have many gears that only takes 10hr to get, nothing feel quite the same as working on REMA for months and finally obtain them.

[Urmom]

Don't know if all these walls of text already mentioned it but also like to add rem 100% soloable even before ilvl. Aeonics... some people have a hard time beat the top ones even with small groups. Really need to rethink the brew restriction. Given the sheer cost of it doubt it's a big deal since most people probably don't even have enough for 1 let alone enough to take out all the T4s or the fear of easy moding the entire thing and takes a really long time to farm that much silt. And hp scaling and the sheer increase in monster powerlevel while brew has in a fashion actually gotten weaker compared to abyssea (have more stats already so less gained from it and no ability to switch some atmas to other percentage based increase and well we hitting dmg caps now easier) greatly discourage leeching/selling spots. Heck saw one guy actually failed a few times to kill just 1 WoC with brew in just 1 pt so scaling not even that bad yet... granted he was doingitwrong.jpg but still

[saevel]

Short Answer: No

Long Answer: Learn how to play

[chiefhunglo]

I say they should make two server's one for people that just want fast gear and the other that's not fast gearing.

[Nyarlko]

I say they should make two server's one for people that just want fast gear and the other that's not fast gearing.

If you want to go slow, transfer to a dead server. I'm sure the process would slow down considerably if there aren't enough people to kill things with :D

TBH, your suggestion makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would you possibly want to go slower than you have to?

[Urmom]

If you want to go slow, transfer to a dead server. I'm sure the process would slow down considerably if there aren't enough people to kill things with :D

TBH, your suggestion makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would you possibly want to go slower than you have to?

So you can enjoy the ride

[Siviard]

If you want to go slow, transfer to a dead server. I'm sure the process would slow down considerably if there aren't enough people to kill things with :D

TBH, your suggestion makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would you possibly want to go slower than you have to?

Don't be so sure about that. There are advantages of being on a low population server. I have ZERO competition in Dynamis, basically every zone is empty except for the occasional JP player in Dynamis-Jeuno. I could very easily farm all the currency for a relic in less than a month.

[Gwydion]

Whatever comes from this thread: All mythics need a relevant 2017-era augment to each respective job. Perhaps owning all of the REA weapons could further augment the Mythic weapon.

[Stompa]

Re ; "why would you play on a small / empty server."

It depends what you are doing, if you are spamming Ambuscade then it is really great to be on an empty server because you have to go and kill 10 gutter mobs every five minutes, and it sucks to compete for gutter mobs.

On a small and quiet server, if you are spamming Ambuscade you can find a nice part of the world map and warp there for your 10 gutter mobs and you *know* that nobody will be there.

If you are building Empys it makes the process faster if nobody else is killing the pre-Aby mobs, and nobody is farming Aby pop-sets for the Boss you want to farm. It is really nice to be able to just farm stuff at your own speed without having to queue and compete for gutter mobs all the time.

But obviously there are a lot of advantages to being on a high-octane busy server too. There are advantages to both types of server.

[chiefhunglo]

It does make sense there are a lot of ppl's that played this game or still play that want a harder grind I know it's crazy but hey they are out their and more power to them me I just want to get the gear I need to do end game and can't see myself doing it with these crazy 10,000 of this or 50 drop's of this and ppl's with crazy gear camping the darn thing.

[chiefhunglo]

Dude bull crap I been shouting for help with nyzul and still haven't reached floor 100 you had helped some of us don't have it good as you.

[Afania]

I just want to get the gear I need to do end game and can't see myself doing it with these crazy 10,000 of this or 50 drop's of this and ppl's with crazy gear camping the darn thing.

This "You need a mythic to do endgame" is getting ridiculous....exactly which endgame content requires a mythic to do?

I recently reactivated one of my alt in Abyssea gears, 5hr later she joined an Escha ruann party and getting clears. I didn't duo box carry her or anything, I just join pt on a brand new character in Abyssea gears, no mythic required. Why can't you do endgame without mythic?

If you're new or returning player, the first thing that you should do isn't trying to generate 300m for your mythic by slowly soloing on a under geared job. It's going to take forever for very small increase, and more importantly it's not fun.

Instead, work on gears that gives bigger improvement than a mythic but cheaper/faster to get. With better gears, get into groups/LS and build your connections, work on some useful jobs to fill the niche. Once you get into better groups or have better gears, you can make gil MUCH faster than solo in salvage, otherwise you'd become an undergeared DD with a mythic and ruin your rep in endgame community.....a bad rep ruins your chance for endgame invites faster than anything.

[Hawklaser]

Dude bull crap I been shouting for help with nyzul and still haven't reached floor 100 you had helped some of us don't have it good as you.

Well, how geared are you? Back with just normal 99 appropriate gear for Drg, I could clear a few floors at a time but not enough for 5 thanks to lamp floors. Now with +1 ambuscade gear, and a 119 lance from a unity NM, I had no problem at all clearing 5 floors a run, even with lamp floors. Cleared from 0-100 just this weekend, and I have to say the only way you should not be able to solo 5 floors is if you get two ordered lamp floors in the same set of 5, as only in the sets with 1 ordered lamp floor is when I got the 10m warning messages.

So curious what kinda gear you are trying to do this in, or if it is just a Get Good kind of thing. Best tip I can give is when start on a new floor, is pick a wall and follow it, and on ordered lamp floors make sure to keep track of the order you hit the lamps in. Maze navigating 101 - Follow one wall constantly, until it loops back to start then switch walls. Works all the time unless the walls move, and they don't in Nyzul Isle.


This "You need a mythic to do endgame" is getting ridiculous....exactly which endgame content requires a mythic to do?

I recently reactivated one of my alt in Abyssea gears, 5hr later she joined an Escha ruann party and getting clears. I didn't duo box carry her or anything, I just join pt on a brand new character in Abyssea gears, no mythic required. Why can't you do endgame without mythic?

If you're new or returning player, the first thing that you should do isn't trying to generate 300m for your mythic by slowly soloing on a under geared job. It's going to take forever for very small increase, and more importantly it's not fun.

Instead, work on gears that gives bigger improvement than a mythic but cheaper/faster to get. With better gears, get into groups/LS and build your connections, work on some useful jobs to fill the niche. Once you get into better groups or have better gears, you can make gil MUCH faster than solo in salvage, otherwise you'd become an undergeared DD with a mythic and ruin your rep in endgame community.....a bad rep ruins your chance for endgame invites faster than anything.

Pretty much this, I have yet to get up to Omen and the doing some of the endgame NM's in places like Reiseijima, but I have not seen a dire need for a REMA weapon except for maybe the hardest of the content like Omen. Work on getting geared up for Ambuscade/Unity Wanted monsters first, to get your most needed stats up to on par, then start going for the improvements over those, while doing stuff to farm needed items for REMA on the side.

I made a few connections since returning and basically starting with sparks gear + good old DD accessories. The connections have helped farm a couple of items for me. But you know that stuff is also a joint effort as they get useful stuff out of it as well, immediate gear for themselves and another geared non-trust person to help out with the harder content in the long run.

And the whole need "REMA for endgame" stuff, is either because the content truly needs it, or because people got tired of carrying lazy people who would not put in the time to get decently geared(as if you too lazy to get some of the easier appropriate gear, likely too lazy to go get REMA as well).

[Urmom]

Dude bull crap I been shouting for help with nyzul and still haven't reached floor 100 you had helped some of us don't have it good as you.

Wait what is this. nyzul has been clearable solo by the average player since they raised the level cap to like 85-90ish. It will take time and unlucky lamps would kill that run but nowadays even in bad 119 gear even with 1-2 bad lamp floors should be able to do 10 a run and without having to wait a day for tags you can do this real fast

[chiefhunglo]

This "You need a mythic to do endgame" is getting ridiculous....exactly which endgame content requires a mythic to do?

I recently reactivated one of my alt in Abyssea gears, 5hr later she joined an Escha ruann party and getting clears. I didn't duo box carry her or anything, I just join pt on a brand new character in Abyssea gears, no mythic required. Why can't you do endgame without mythic?

If you're new or returning player, the first thing that you should do isn't trying to generate 300m for your mythic by slowly soloing on a under geared job. It's going to take forever for very small increase, and more importantly it's not fun.

Instead, work on gears that gives bigger improvement than a mythic but cheaper/faster to get. With better gears, get into groups/LS and build your connections, work on some useful jobs to fill the niche. Once you get into better groups or have better gears, you can make gil MUCH faster than solo in salvage, otherwise you'd become an undergeared DD with a mythic and ruin your rep in endgame community.....a bad rep ruins your chance for endgame invites faster than anything.

Yeah tried that first thing they ask if I have maxed out gear.

[chiefhunglo]

Wait what is this. nyzul has been clearable solo by the average player since they raised the level cap to like 85-90ish. It will take time and unlucky lamps would kill that run but nowadays even in bad 119 gear even with 1-2 bad lamp floors should be able to do 10 a run and without having to wait a day for tags you can do this real fast

Well yeah been turned around and lamped most of the time I ran Nyzul.