The allowed distance between BST and pet for moves is ridiculous low now.

[Nyclia]

When i did level Beastmaster while charming was still up to date, i never had a problem with fighting and using pets tp moves. I had fun, even when i did eat dust.
But now since i try to master Beastmaster i was too far away to use Jug pets tp moves while me, the mob and my pet was building a 90° triangle. And that was no distance at all. Even if me, the mob and my pet would build a line, using Jug pets tp moves should be no problem at all. I don't know what SE was thinking about doing this. To limit the option to use jug pets tp moves to a "stand side by side/cheek to cheek" distance can't be justified by anything. That kills the free choice of positioning yourself, as long as the monster is in hitting range.
Sorry, but i have no other choice but to ask SE to allow all bst commands, as long as me, the monster and my pet is in hitting range to the mob. No matter if its 90°, or less in my case, a triangle or a line of me, the mob and my pet... .

[Songen]

When i did level Beastmaster while charming was still up to date, i never had a problem with fighting and using pets tp moves. I had fun, even when i did eat dust.
But now since i try to master Beastmaster i was too far away to use Jug pets tp moves while me, the mob and my pet was building a 90° triangle. And that was no distance at all. Even if me, the mob and my pet would build a line, using Jug pets tp moves should be no problem at all. I don't know what SE was thinking about doing this. To limit the option to use jug pets tp moves to a "stand side by side/cheek to cheek" distance can't be justified by anything. That kills the free choice of positioning yourself, as long as the monster is in hitting range.
Sorry, but i have no other choice but to ask SE to allow all bst commands, as long as me, the monster and my pet is in hitting range to the mob. No matter if its 90°, or less in my case, a triangle or a line of me, the mob and my pet... .

They won't do it, since they purposely nerfed everything your asking for, bst used to be the pimped job, however they nerfed because of the rare power it has if used right, its pretty much the AC smn in what people loved/hated.

As far as it goes, you gotta be 7-10' of the pet (Depending on which pet you have) or its a no go

[Sirmarki]

From what I gather, the idea of the nerf was because the Beastmaster was originally designed to be fighting alongside their pet. I can understand that concept.

The problem is that you can be fighting the monster alongside your pet and you STILL get 'out of range' messages when trying to use a ready/reward move. This is especially true when fighting larger monsters.

So, In my opinion, I think the range should be altered to compensate for that issue.

[Nyarlko]

From what I gather, the idea of the nerf was because the Beastmaster was originally designed to be fighting alongside their pet. I can understand that concept.

The problem is that you can be fighting the monster alongside your pet and you STILL get 'out of range' messages when trying to use a ready/reward move. This is especially true when fighting larger monsters.

So, In my opinion, I think the range should be altered to compensate for that issue.

Not "designed", but "intended". The design allowed for long range play for ~12-13 years. They still haven't changed the stat budget on BST gear to allow for both player/pet to be viable in combat simultaneously, or added any JA/JT support for master melee, or given us any actual incentive to follow their gameplan.

The range nerf was a kneejerk reaction to complaints about BST being OP compared to other jobs. The statements about what their intentions for how BST should be played were excuses to justify a job change this large. IMO, the response did nothing to address the issues complained about other than make it annoying enough to play BST that most of the bandwagoners dropped out. Everyone else has caught up (or surpassed) BST at this point though, so it's about time that the nerf is at least partially reversed. A hard 10y range (adjusted for player model size) should be enough to at least allow us to melee 90' from our pet on midsize/large targets, and shouldn't cause any negative issues.

Did you know that the current range for Tarutaru vs Galka varies by ~.2y due to the size of player models? That's enough to allow a Galka to be outside of an AOE range while the Taru is inside of it. Pretty sure that the racial imbalance was always there, but it was exacerbated by the drastic range reduction.

[Selindrile]

Bst have frequently been not meleeing with their pets for years and years, anyone remember that everyone's favorite XP target for bst for ages was bombs because they blew themselves up? They certainly didn't melee on those. This change is tantamount to redefining the job, even if that wasn't it's original design, it's not like not-meleeing on bst is anything new.

Remember when the devs said ninjas weren't supposed to be tanks, but then the community tanked with NIN, then the devs released tanking gear for NIN? Yeah, that was cool, I mean, the devs have claimed to be asking for feedback, isn't deciding to play it as a backline job an example of feedback? I mean why bother claiming to ask for feedback if you're going to do the opposite of what the players obviously want?

I said this at the time they nerfed it, and I'll say it again.

[Zeargi]

I said this at the time they nerfed it, and I'll say it again.

This is 100% accurate. If they wanted BST to Melee with their pets, then there should be more tools to allow them to do so via Gear and a re-envisioning of BST's JA/JT. In the beginning, BST used to use Scythes just as much as Axes, so it always bothered me that they got the Fencer trait when there was no Shield to off-hand for BST to make it worthwhile. Not to mention their shield skill is awful. Even more confusing, why they were the only job that has a 'Circle' ability that wasn't learned by leveling like the other jobs and stuck behind merits. We've offered tons of ideas to the Devs on things that could help make BST better and put it on the road for playing as "intended", but if you're going to ignore it then...

A while ago I posted these, not perfect but still something to toy around with:



BST needs to get the following JT:
Accuracy Bonus III: 30, 50, 75
Max HP Boost IV: 35, 55, 75, 95
Shield Defense Bonus: 85

The Job Trait: Beast Healer needs to change to include: Copies 1 status enhancing effect per rank in merits to Pet When Using Reward

Job Ability that needs to be Add:

Empathy's Bond: Decreases DMG Taken By Master and Increases Accuracy for Pet and Master the closer they are together
Level: 90
Recast: 3m
Effect Time: 45s~1m

And 2 or more Shields designed for BST EXCLUSIVELY need to be added. They also need to change BST Shield ranks from E to C.

[Nyclia]

I can totally accept that i shall fight alongside my pet.
But i EXPECT to be able run around the mob, while i am in hitting range and STILL be able to use my pets abilities! If that is not possible, it's TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!

What would PUP do, if he couldnt move the mob from it's puppet?
How should my DRGs Wyvern heal me in any situation with such a tiny range? Even if DRG can't be considered as "overpowered". Where is the fairness if you compared these jobs?

Or what with SMN? Their defense shouldn't allow to fight so close to the mob. They would be killed in a few hits. And look at their possible damage. I have seen about 36k dmg on the final boss of Rhapsody of Vanadiel with Ifrit. But it's fair to nerf BST that way... .

How about to do the same to them as you did to BST SE? If you look so much on overpowered pet jobs.

P.S.: Yes, i remember the time as charming BST. It was the best time i had on it, because i could lvl on my own pace. It was great, even if i did eat dust alot of times. And i really mean alot. I soloed BST to 96, until i found no more book camps that made it worthwhile. But then SE decides to boost jug pet BSTs and i had to get used to it. Ok~. Now they nerf BST like this, after i accepted that the charming BST seemed to be no longer wanted.
God damn it SE. Please don't put so many stones in my way on a job i loved to solo, only because other player overdid it! They should work on their social abilities and common sense not to overdo it and make you nerf the job to the current situation. >.<

[Jerbob]

Nyclia has my full support. The nerf was ridiculous - completely altering a key job mechanic in an attempt to "restore job balance" is a sledgehammer approach that should never have even been considered, let alone implemented. The fact that it's broken as well makes it inexcusable.

[Songen]

one main issue is, if they increase the distance, theres a high likely hood that they'll increase the recast of charges along with reducing the maximum capacity much like they did with cor's quick draw

[Nyarlko]

one main issue is, if they increase the distance, theres a high likely hood that they'll increase the recast of charges along with reducing the maximum capacity much like they did with cor's quick draw

No, that is not likely in any way. Reducing Ready charges would also require reworking many jugs, and extra work tends to pull the "that would cost a version update" response they've been using recently. If they required a downside, then it would likely be a direct nerf to ready move damage. I'm pretty sure that they don't want to do that since if they felt that damage output was actually out of whack, they would have done that instead of the JA range nerf. We may have shorter Ready recast than SMN BPs, but over time (even just 3-5min,) SMN actually outpaces us in comparable gear. (It's been like this even before the nerf btw.) At this point, nearly every other job has caught up to BST in damage output anyways, so any sort of damage nerf would be extremely uncalled for anyway.

I believe that they should simply increase the range slightly from the current ~6' to 9' or 10', with built-in adjustments to ensure racial parity. We don't really NEED a full reversion, but the current state simply sucks, so I'm willing to compromise. ^^

[Songen]

No, that is not likely in any way. Reducing Ready charges would also require reworking many jugs, and extra work tends to pull the "that would cost a version update" response they've been using recently. If they required a downside, then it would likely be a direct nerf to ready move damage. I'm pretty sure that they don't want to do that since if they felt that damage output was actually out of whack, they would have done that instead of the JA range nerf. We may have shorter Ready recast than SMN BPs, but over time (even just 3-5min,) SMN actually outpaces us in comparable gear. (It's been like this even before the nerf btw.) At this point, nearly every other job has caught up to BST in damage output anyways, so any sort of damage nerf would be extremely uncalled for anyway.

I believe that they should simply increase the range slightly from the current ~6' to 9' or 10', with built-in adjustments to ensure racial parity. We don't really NEED a full reversion, but the current state simply sucks, so I'm willing to compromise. ^^

Not likely in anyway? what do you mean? considering it wouldn't be the first time they readjusted the timers for bst, i don't see how its not a possibility, not to mention the ready ability is a ability. they already mentioned they don't want to touch pet abilitys so as a balance formula, seems a likely addition they'd do if you want a distance ability

[Selindrile]

Nyarlko explained their meaning pretty clearly and logically, but if you really don't understand, they're saying if they adjusted max charges/charge costs it would require a lot of work and changes, however they could adjust recast only, but again, as Nyarlko stated, that would seem silly in that Bst's damage isn't what it was, anyway.

[Nyarlko]

Not likely in anyway? what do you mean? considering it wouldn't be the first time they readjusted the timers for bst, i don't see how its not a possibility, not to mention the ready ability is a ability. they already mentioned they don't want to touch pet abilitys so as a balance formula, seems a likely addition they'd do if you want a distance ability

"Reducing the maximum capacity" is simply not going to happen. As I said, that would require reworking all jug pets w/ 3x charge abilities and that would push it into the "too much work to bother with" category. And as far as I know, recast time has not been touched since being added, but wasn't around at that time so can't say for sure. Regardless, even with the current minimum recast of 10sec per charge, just about any high-end geared DD should be able to outperform us over time when excluding SPs. Last I checked, pets are pretty much capped to ~30k max per ready move, and I know DDs who can do more dmg per WS plus build TP faster than 10sec. Heck, one of the CORs in my ls just hit 3-shot (1-shot w/ Triple Shot proc).

In other words, BST is far from being top of the charts already and I sincerely doubt that they would do another major playstyle nerf in order to recover slightly from the last one.

[Songen]

"Reducing the maximum capacity" is simply not going to happen. As I said, that would require reworking all jug pets w/ 3x charge abilities and that would push it into the "too much work to bother with" category. And as far as I know, recast time has not been touched since being added, but wasn't around at that time so can't say for sure. Regardless, even with the current minimum recast of 10sec per charge, just about any high-end geared DD should be able to outperform us over time when excluding SPs. Last I checked, pets are pretty much capped to ~30k max per ready move, and I know DDs who can do more dmg per WS plus build TP faster than 10sec. Heck, one of the CORs in my ls just hit 3-shot (1-shot w/ Triple Shot proc).

In other words, BST is far from being top of the charts already and I sincerely doubt that they would do another major playstyle nerf in order to recover slightly from the last one.

i was around for when ready was not a ability, and while i didn't take it to lvl 75, i did level it a fair ways up solo and in partys, i soloed major NMs on bst in places like phomina aquaducts,sacrarium and pso,Xja, beastmaster was one of my first jobs (Literally, since it was my first job i unlocked not because it seemed easy at the time to unlock but it seemed fun to beable to charm pets).i was also one of the first bsts to test the screwed up charm system after ilvl was implemented, when band wagon bst started in adoulin my bst was already half ready, while my bst isn't 100% gear atm since i'v been working on my over all job set, i stilll have a fair share still contributing towards it working well ~After all i said what i am saying is, don't think i don't know beastmaster, i may not be the best but i have seen the mechanics better than some of the best~

and as for them having to adjust every pet ability for 1 job ability, i believe you are the one being delusional in terms of encoding. ready ability is encoded for itself and is simply activation switch for the pet abilitys, the pet abilitys remain the same (All stats are attached to the pet ability, not the ready ability, all enhancements bound to the ready ability thru job points etc enhances either before or after the pet ability is activated and this isn't a effect bound to the ready ability recast), if i said all pet pet abilitys needed a damage/acc/potency/etc increase/decrease then yes, its a massive amount of work since each pet ability's value is different, however, when you select ready (Which is its own ability in the encoding) it simply directs another pet ability to activate or not and attaches a enhancement or not (Which is already encoded and wouldn't need to be adjusted) (The mechanics of each pet ability is its own, just as the ready ability is its own).

[Nyarlko]

i was around for when ready was not a ability, and while i didn't take it to lvl 75, i did level it a fair ways up solo and in partys, i soloed major NMs on bst in places like phomina aquaducts,sacrarium and pso,Xja, beastmaster was one of my first jobs (Literally, since it was my first job i unlocked not because it seemed easy at the time to unlock but it seemed fun to beable to charm pets).i was also one of the first bsts to test the screwed up charm system after ilvl was implemented, when band wagon bst started in adoulin my bst was already half ready, while my bst isn't 100% gear atm since i'v been working on my over all job set, i stilll have a fair share still contributing towards it working well ~After all i said what i am saying is, don't think i don't know beastmaster, i may not be the best but i have seen the mechanics better than some of the best~

and as for them having to adjust every pet ability for 1 job ability, i believe you are the one being delusional in terms of encoding. ready ability is encoded for itself and is simply activation switch for the pet abilitys, the pet abilitys remain the same (All stats are attached to the pet ability, not the ready ability, all enhancements bound to the ready ability thru job points etc enhances either before or after the pet ability is activated and this isn't a effect bound to the ready ability recast), if i said all pet pet abilitys needed a damage/acc/potency/etc increase/decrease then yes, its a massive amount of work since each pet ability's value is different, however, when you select ready (Which is its own ability in the encoding) it simply directs another pet ability to activate or not and attaches a enhancement or not (Which is already encoded and wouldn't need to be adjusted) (The mechanics of each pet ability is its own, just as the ready ability is its own).

Precisely how would you expect 3-charge abilities to be usable if number of charges were reduced below the current three? :3

It's unlikely that values such as the ready charge cost is programmed in as part of the Ready JA itself. (It's also always risky to argue anything on the basis of unknown programming/code. It's not like any of the server code can be examined by us.) Doing so would mean that the JA itself would have to be altered each and every time they added a jug, and that would fall under the category of dangerous/easily-broken code. I am fully aware that we're dealing with 15 year old mountain of stratified spaghetti, but any professional programmer would immediately recognize the risks and inherent increased difficulty in maintaining and updating that type of code and find another option. All of that means that any adjustment to Ready charge quantity would require rebuilding every jug that has a 3-charge ability. I'm pretty sure that, from the devs' recent statements, something like this would fall under the "too much work, cost an update" response they've been using.

Increasing the recast timer would be a significant damage nerf, which BST definitely does NOT need. We're already middle-of-the-pack at the highest end, what would be a possible justification to drop us lower? A mere 5sec increase would result in a 33% damage loss. (10sec charges = 6x per minute, 15sec charges = 4x per minute. Before anyone argues that value.) Even a single second would result in ~9% lost. This is absolutely NOT a valid "knob" to turn for adjustments.

I am honestly rather surprised how hard you are defending a potential nerf in a thread asking for at least partially undoing the BST JA range nerf of '15. ^^;; I could somewhat understand expecting a balancing nerf to accompany it if everyone here were calling for a full reversal (which I don't think that anyone has so far,) but there should be no legitimate balance concerns over a partial reversal that increases the range only to the point where we can actually do what the devs want us to do and melee alongside our pets.

[Songen]

Precisely how would you expect 3-charge abilities to be usable if number of charges were reduced below the current three? :3

It's unlikely that values such as the ready charge cost is programmed in as part of the Ready JA itself. (It's also always risky to argue anything on the basis of unknown programming/code. It's not like any of the server code can be examined by us.) Doing so would mean that the JA itself would have to be altered each and every time they added a jug, and that would fall under the category of dangerous/easily-broken code. I am fully aware that we're dealing with 15 year old mountain of stratified spaghetti, but any professional programmer would immediately recognize the risks and inherent increased difficulty in maintaining and updating that type of code and find another option. All of that means that any adjustment to Ready charge quantity would require rebuilding every jug that has a 3-charge ability. I'm pretty sure that, from the devs' recent statements, something like this would fall under the "too much work, cost an update" response they've been using.

Increasing the recast timer would be a significant damage nerf, which BST definitely does NOT need. We're already middle-of-the-pack at the highest end, what would be a possible justification to drop us lower? A mere 5sec increase would result in a 33% damage loss. (10sec charges = 6x per minute, 15sec charges = 4x per minute. Before anyone argues that value.) Even a single second would result in ~9% lost. This is absolutely NOT a valid "knob" to turn for adjustments.

I am honestly rather surprised how hard you are defending a potential nerf in a thread asking for at least partially undoing the BST JA range nerf of '15. ^^;; I could somewhat understand expecting a balancing nerf to accompany it if everyone here were calling for a full reversal (which I don't think that anyone has so far,) but there should be no legitimate balance concerns over a partial reversal that increases the range only to the point where we can actually do what the devs want us to do and melee alongside our pets.

If you are asking if i want to have bst nerfed, as a 11year bst vetern, THE ANSWER IS NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't F--king touch it, and anyone of you F*** heads (And that includes you nyariko for thinking it) who are trying to nerf it further are total Sh*t heads for even thinking of thinking it.

Now then, if you payed attention to post in question that i wrote
one main issue is, if they increase the distance, theres a high likely hood that they'll increase the recast of charges along with reducing the maximum capacity much like they did with cor's quick draw You would have noticed i was explaining that since its already nerfed from what it was before, in order to unnerf it they would have to come to what SE refers to a balance (And odviously since they nerfed bst by reducing the distance to use the ability, they would likely try to balance it in their own crazy way as they always do), A likely hood (not that it would actually happen as i have stated) is they would nerf either the max charges or the recast value or perhaps both altogether in w/e sick perception is their sence of balance

I WAS defending is the fact you were saying (Worded in such a way that you were saying) that is impossible to actually change the recast timer and quantity for the ready ability with the current dev team size. it is not impossible even with the current team, its patch is probably quite simple and you don't need to be a programing genious to see it since you change the max/minimum values of certain numbers for the ready ability directly. it requires as much work as most other abilitys since ready is mainly a activation key for pet abilitys (It unlocks the door, it is not THE door)

I honestly would prefer a longer distance to beable to use ready, not only that, i want charm to work efficiently again, and i want sic to actually do something useful and not have such a long recast, and i want my pets to actually have magic dmg rather than some quint of p#ss that comes would as magic dmg, and i want my pets enfeeble magic to actually land, however thats another story

Fix the problem, i don't mind, However keep in mind tho.
FOR GODS SAKE DON'T F##k IT UP in the process,
plz, as a vet bst and as someone who doesn't want the job to die in the process because of people being unable to adapt

[Nyarlko]

Songen, you need to chill. :x There is no need for personal attacks or expletives, especially since we should be on basically the same "Fix BST" team. ^^;;

I am in no way in support of any further nerf of any kind to BST. None of my posts here, or anywhere else, have ever been in support of nerfs. I don't think that anyone else in this thread is either, other than how you alone appear to be demanding a "balance" nerf in order to get what we want.

My stance is that if the increase was on the minor side (to 9'-10') then there would be absolutely no need for any downside to be included. I get that they don't want us way <Over there.> so a full restoration is pretty clearly out of the question at this point. I could kinda understand if there was a downside/cost built-in to a proposed full-restore to JA range, but even then, I would argue against it. Nerfs are bad and should only be used similar to bug fixes.

The only dev team related issue that I brought up is that they have been replying to some suggestions recently in the basic form of "Nope. That would take as much work as # monthly updates, so we have no plans..." I don't know myself (since I am not working on the dev team) whether that is due to lack of staff/man-hours, complexity of coding involved, or lack of interest on their part, but it doesn't really matter "why". The general impression I've gotten from the devs recently is that if something new would require a lot of work to accomplish, it's just not gonna happen at this point.

Your idea that they would target recast or number of charges is simply not viable for the reasons I've already explained. Going after number of charges would result in lots of extra work to change every jug pet with a 3-charge move, and recast increases would be massive nerfs to damage output. Both of your "solutions" would create much bigger problems than the current annoying short-range state.

Also, unless you have direct access to the source code and fully KNOW precisely how it operates, it's not a good idea to insist that the coding works a certain way when we players have no way to verify one way or the other. When I do, I try to keep it within the realm of what's logically the best solution, and try to avoid absolute statements on stuff that isn't player testable/verifiable. Feel free to call me out if/when I fail to do so. XD

BTW, my BST is job master, endgame geared and I still enjoy the job even with the painfully small JA range. ^^;; However, I think that BST may be the only job that has actual gameplay mechanics that result in racial inequalities. A small increase to our JA range which includes racial modifiers to force player model size parity would essentially be a welcome BUG FIX and far from something that should require nerf-strings attached. A Galka at max range's JA will go off, while a Tarutaru standing in the same spot will not. That needs to be fixed and without any strings attached.

[Seriha]

Staying out of the logic of why the adjustment happened to begin with, I'd say the master simply being in melee range should be enough. To avoid the "Out of Range" aspect if the pet is behind you or whatever, just force a quick move and possibly implement a bit of wiggle room for their skill ranges in the event the mob does move (or is forced to do so by the pet moving in range).

[Songen]

Songen, you need to chill. :x There is no need for personal attacks or expletives, especially since we should be on basically the same "Fix BST" team. ^^;;

I am in no way in support of any further nerf of any kind to BST. None of my posts here, or anywhere else, have ever been in support of nerfs. I don't think that anyone else in this thread is either, other than how you alone appear to be demanding a "balance" nerf in order to get what we want.

My stance is that if the increase was on the minor side (to 9'-10') then there would be absolutely no need for any downside to be included. I get that they don't want us way <Over there.> so a full restoration is pretty clearly out of the question at this point. I could kinda understand if there was a downside/cost built-in to a proposed full-restore to JA range, but even then, I would argue against it. Nerfs are bad and should only be used similar to bug fixes.

The only dev team related issue that I brought up is that they have been replying to some suggestions recently in the basic form of "Nope. That would take as much work as # monthly updates, so we have no plans..." I don't know myself (since I am not working on the dev team) whether that is due to lack of staff/man-hours, complexity of coding involved, or lack of interest on their part, but it doesn't really matter "why". The general impression I've gotten from the devs recently is that if something new would require a lot of work to accomplish, it's just not gonna happen at this point.

Your idea that they would target recast or number of charges is simply not viable for the reasons I've already explained. Going after number of charges would result in lots of extra work to change every jug pet with a 3-charge move, and recast increases would be massive nerfs to damage output. Both of your "solutions" would create much bigger problems than the current annoying short-range state.

Also, unless you have direct access to the source code and fully KNOW precisely how it operates, it's not a good idea to insist that the coding works a certain way when we players have no way to verify one way or the other. When I do, I try to keep it within the realm of what's logically the best solution, and try to avoid absolute statements on stuff that isn't player testable/verifiable. Feel free to call me out if/when I fail to do so. XD

BTW, my BST is job master, endgame geared and I still enjoy the job even with the painfully small JA range. ^^;; However, I think that BST may be the only job that has actual gameplay mechanics that result in racial inequalities. A small increase to our JA range which includes racial modifiers to force player model size parity would essentially be a welcome BUG FIX and far from something that should require nerf-strings attached. A Galka at max range's JA will go off, while a Tarutaru standing in the same spot will not. That needs to be fixed and without any strings attached.

in one final ditch attenpt i will try and say it again,
All i have said so far has been a caution to everyone that SE team size has the capability to alter code which already exists in its entirety atm where you have been constantly staying its impossible due to your already stated reasons. this statement doesn't mean i support nerfing bst, its a fact that must be kept in mind is all.

How is it you (Nyariko) keep ending up with the same conclusion that i offered anything in terms of support for nerfing?, nor how my cautioning people ment i was saying that what i was saying is the only option, as my last post clearly stats
(And odviously since they nerfed bst by reducing the distance to use the ability, they would likely try to balance it in their own crazy way as they always do), A likely hood (not that it would actually happen as i have stated) is they would nerf either the max charges or the recast value or perhaps both altogether in w/e sick perception is their sence of balance I am offering a CAUTION in terms that adjusting it has a likelihood of getting something else nerfed. This in no ways says i support nerfing bst to get the distance problem fixed, its advice that in everyones suggestions keep in mind the potentual dmg that may arise.

I could not for the life of me figure out how you keep coming to the same stupid conclusion that i support nerfing bst, insulting me continuously with that fact until i got as pissed off as i did before,since all I have been talking is the exact opposite to nerfing bst right from my first post on this thread, as such i am deaming it that you, Nyariko are trolling. I will no longer talk on this matter of SEs capability and hope everyone stays focused on trying to find a PROPER solution instead of being absent minded on the matter at hand.

[Nyarlko]

in one final ditch attenpt i will try and say it again,
All i have said so far has been a caution to everyone that SE team size has the capability to alter code which already exists in its entirety atm where you have been constantly staying its impossible due to your already stated reasons. this statement doesn't mean i support nerfing bst, its a fact that must be kept in mind is all.

How is it you (Nyariko) keep ending up with the same conclusion that i offered anything in terms of support for nerfing?, nor how my cautioning people ment i was saying that what i was saying is the only option, as my last post clearly stats I am offering a CAUTION in terms that adjusting it has a likelihood of getting something else nerfed. This in no ways says i support nerfing bst to get the distance problem fixed, its advice that in everyones suggestions keep in mind the potentual dmg that may arise.

I could not for the life of me figure out how you keep coming to the same stupid conclusion that i support nerfing bst, insulting me continuously with that fact until i got as pissed off as i did before,since all I have been talking is the exact opposite to nerfing bst right from my first post on this thread, as such i am deaming it that you, Nyariko are trolling. I will no longer talk on this matter of SEs capability and hope everyone stays focused on trying to find a PROPER solution instead of being absent minded on the matter at hand.

I am not trolling in any way, shape, or form. I actually thought we were having a decent discussion about the matter. ^^;; Before this became a two-man debate though, no one else asked for a single thing that would require any sort of balance nerf in order to allow and you were the only one who brought that up. No insults were intended, no need to be offended.

Correcting the player model size difference should be done regardless of any other adjustment. It would be fantastic if we could get a small range increase to at least allow for the 90' formation as others here have asked for. IF people here were demanding a full restoration, then I would agree with your stance that something else would probably have to take a hit in order to get the adjustment. That's not what anyone here is asking for though so there is no justification to insist that one would be necessary.

I still believe that altering Ready recast or charge limit would be a much larger undertaking than you are assuming it to be coding-wise, and even if not, as I already stated, adjustments to either of those things would result in massive game-breaking damage nerfs and likely to drop BST down to MNK's current viability or lower. ><;; (Let's all hope/post that MNK gets fixed btw. They need everyone's support.)

Personally, I've always had the feeling that the devs were OK with BST's damage potential, which is why they nerfed the range to silence the complainers instead of doing something that would actually change damage output directly. It did accomplish their goal in this case (fewer complaints about BST being OP) by increasing the work required for gameplay which chased off most bandwagoners, but those complaints are far from valid at this point due to content/gear progression since then bringing nearly everyone else's performance up, so fixing the bugs introduced by the nerf should no longer be out of the question. Bugfixes don't normally come with strings attached.... unless it's GEO related. XD

[Kishr]

This turned into a shit storm quick.
Just use a tiger and can stand at '7
You guys need to get yourselves together if you getting all upset over such a small thing.
I can solo ruan t2 and reisinjima t1 np in its current distance.

[Nyarlko]

This turned into a shit storm quick.
Just use a tiger and can stand at '7
You guys need to get yourselves together if you getting all upset over such a small thing.
I can solo ruan t2 and reisinjima t1 np in its current distance.

That 7' will vary between races based on player model size (taru <> hume/mithra/elvaan <> galka), and pet model as well as you pointed out. Tiger is not always the best choice depending on target and tactics, so the range WILL vary. I don't really mind having to run in/out, but being able to function (sometimes / sort of) is not justification to leave what is effectively a race-based bug active. Dismissing the problem does nothing to address our inability to even play the job the way the devs intended when they shoved the nerf down our throats.

[Olor]

It made BST really unfun for me to be honest, I stopped playing it mostly... with trusts BLU was already stronger... this was the nail in the coffin for the useability of bst for most things.

[Kishr]

Well, I never knew there was a race issue until I read this thread.
Does anyone know the exact distance difference between races?

[Kishr]

Double post Sorry,
Can't see it being further than a half a yalm or even 1+.

[Nyarlko]

Well, I never knew there was a race issue until I read this thread.
Does anyone know the exact distance difference between races?

IIRC, it's ~.15y between sizes. So, .3y diff between taru/galka.. This may sound insignificant, and it pretty much was pre-nerf, but with the post-nerf distance, it's the difference of being in or out of AOE range while at max distance with some pets. We are looking at ~5% diff between taru/galka now. That is significant enough that it affects gameplay.

I'm pretty sure that the racial diff is actually universal for all spells/JAs, and has always been there, but the range for pretty much everything else in-game is high enough (15-21y) that it's not very noticeable (~.1%-1% in general.) It only became a problem once they dropped our range to a small fraction of what it was. IMO, if it is at all possible for the devs, they should increase the range for non-galkas to match up galkas. In addition to that bugfix, they should increase our JA range slightly so that we are able to fight at 90' from our pet on at least smaller-than-"large" size mobs. Somewhere around 9'-10' should be enough to pull this off.

[Rwolf]

Sorry for the long post.

Unpopular opinion, but I feel they should just revert the BST distance nerfs. It didn't change anything except making it frustrating to play.

There better ways to enforce a job vision of master meleeing with the pet. Like making the master work in tandem with the pet. Positive reinforcement.

Examples like:
• Pet "sambas" where the master has to keep attacking to continually debuff the mob for pet to receive benefits. Allowing the master to be in melee gear but still get pet support.

• Pet "Impetus" where the master's consecutive hits build up a buff on the pet.

• Pet "Mana cede" with master TP.

• Tame changes. If on the hate list for a mob and have a pet that intimidates the enemy, adds a killer effect similar sepulcher, arcane crest, etc.

• Run Wild and Spur also giving buffs to master since BST master has no DD traits except Fencer.

Examples are just to focus more that there are ways to make it strategic to melee. I don't have the number crunching for how adjustments need to be worked out.

While it's not envisioned to be a backline job, it should still have reduced capacity at a distance. It would be a more fair balance to incorporate how ranged damage is based on distance.

Remove the target pet function to use Ready/Sic moves. Introduce damage penalty starting at maybe 10 yalms based on distance between master and target.

This game has always had a balance issue with slow and steady versus fast and risky. But it's the way the game penalizes failures and doesn't reward risky strategies that's an issue, not the jobs usually.

[Nyarlko]

Sorry for the long post.

Unpopular opinion, but I feel they should just revert the BST distance nerfs. It didn't change anything except making it frustrating to play.

There better ways to enforce a job vision of master meleeing with the pet. Like making the master work in tandem with the pet. Positive reinforcement.

Examples like:
• Pet "sambas" where the master has to keep attacking to continually debuff the mob for pet to receive benefits. Allowing the master to be in melee gear but still get pet support.

• Pet "Impetus" where the master's consecutive hits build up a buff on the pet.

• Pet "Mana cede" with master TP.

• Tame changes. If on the hate list for a mob and have a pet that intimidates the enemy, adds a killer effect similar sepulcher, arcane crest, etc.

• Run Wild and Spur also giving buffs to master since BST master has no DD traits except Fencer.

Examples are just to focus more that there are ways to make it strategic to melee. I don't have the number crunching for how adjustments need to be worked out.

While it's not envisioned to be a backline job, it should still have reduced capacity at a distance. It would be a more fair balance to incorporate how ranged damage is based on distance.

Remove the target pet function to use Ready/Sic moves. Introduce damage penalty starting at maybe 10 yalms based on distance between master and target.

This game has always had a balance issue with slow and steady versus fast and risky. But it's the way the game penalizes failures and doesn't reward risky strategies that's an issue, not the jobs usually.

It's not that a full reversion would be unpopular, it's that we are all scared about the probable nerfs that would likely accompany it. And non-BSTs would probably freak out again even tho other DDs can outperform us at this point. ^^;; Why ask for something that you know will have nasty strings attached when you can ask for something smaller that should be enough to allow you to do what you are trying to do?

I like the idea behind your JA suggestions, but I think it would make more sense to reverse them and have the pet buff the master. Having master actions buff the pet still feels like the pet is the primary focus and wouldn't make master melee really feel "required". Something like your "Impetus" would require the master being melee geared (which would effectively debuff pets and significantly lower damage output from them.) If the pet buffed the master instead though, it might push us into actually wanting to melee.

The problem with the envisioned playstyle is that BST has absolutely zero incentive to melee alongside pet to outweigh the negatives of doing so. Yes, we'd need stuff like new traits/abilities to start with, but it's also currently impossible to gear both master/pet simultaneously due to gear design. This doesn't mean that they need to merely add new gear that breaks old stat budget limits to buff both (which would be the typical dev reaction based on precedent.) They would have to go back and adjust current gear if they really want to have an impact on how we play. That sounds like too much work to be approved though, so we should probably ask for something different that CAN be done.

The ideal solution in my opinion would be to have gear stats apply to both master/pet. Doing so should be a lot simpler than most probably expect too, since that should be doable as a JT that applies a portion of master stats to pet and/or vice versa. Somewhere around 75% (single-direction) would probably be enough to allow us to function well enough in the manner they want us to play. Doing this as a passive JT would also avoid affecting the other pet jobs. ^^ Not sure which direction the stats should flow, and personally would be somewhat depressed if it was only master>pet since that would mean a ton of work replacing all my pet: gear w/ melee gear... Maybe reciprocal master<>pet but 50%? The value itself could be a valuable "adjustment knob" for the dev team as well since they would only have to look at one spot to adjust in case something caused our damage to get out of whack.

[Rwolf]

I don't why you reply quote a super long post to respond to someone.

The suggestions are just random musing examples. We feel we know SE nerfed BST as a knee jerk reaction to playerbase anger. But if their vision is for BST to melee with their pets, my opinion is working in tandem and allowing it to be potent enough to compensate from the pet focus builds that occur now.

I'm not gonna come up with ideas in detail because I'm not thoroughly excited to get picked apart by you.

You can't say that a full reversion is unpopular and then take an alternate stance against it. It only proves my point that it's an unpopular opinion.

My opinion reiterated is the distance changes should be reverted and if they want BST to melee with the pets. They should work in tandem.

I'm all for hybrid armor but just as you have no faith based on experience of job changes. I have no faith in hybrid gear/buffs being properly done.

[Kishr]

When you catch a cold from someone irl, and you know who it is, do you complain and demand they take it back or just deal with it.

[Nyarlko]

When you catch a cold from someone irl, and you know who it is, do you complain and demand they take it back or just deal with it.

If that person infected you intentionally, then there can be legal grounds to sue them. If the disease is something lethal like HIV, then both civil and criminal charges can possibly apply. Let's try another analogy? ^^;;

Using the same medical theme, this is more like someone amputated my leg and I just want a prosthetic to replace the crutches I was given instead. We don't need runner's blades, we just want to be able to walk without being hobbled anymore. ^^;; Before anyone oversensitive complains about this analogy, I'm disabled myself so I'm confident in my right to talk about how it feels to be limpy. ^^

[Kishr]

No idea what you are talking about.
The distance nerf is not even close to that reasoning.
It happened, it's not going away, just accept it and deal with it.

[Rwolf]

I don't know what you're talking about either to be honest. A medical analogy to a video game isn't even close to similar reasoning.

This is a suggestion and feedback forum that SE themselves request feedback on. If it's irritating to read opinions and feedback, then don't read it.

[saevel]

BST was nerfed for a very good reason, it broke the game at a fundamental level. Gaslighting people doesn't help any of your arguments. SE will not, under any circumstances, remove the distance restriction. Now they might ease up on it a bit but they intentionally wanted players to be in range of monster TP moves when using the Ready ability. This isn't an oversight, they wanted you to get hit by that stuff just like very other player does. You need to wear -DT gear when you run in to use Ready and play a lot smarter then watching cat video's and pressing ready over and over again at 20.4 yalms.

[Rwolf]

No one is gaslighting anyone. Making a medical analogy to a video game doesn't help an argument.

No one is asking for BST to be some penalty free DD. It's fine if the job design is to melee with pets, long term BST have been doing that for years before buffs.

The distance penalty creates more issues than it solves. Which is basically none because as you said BSTs can just run in and out in DT gear.

Bullying all the forums about pet jobs isn't going to stop people from having opinions. Its a feedback forum that SE encourages voicing changes. I encourage other BSTs to keep sharing their experiences with the distance issues and suggestions for workarounds.

Ultimately SE is going to decide whatever, don't need player moderators patrolling forums for what should and should not be suggested. Just disagree, state why and move on.

[saevel]

No one is gaslighting anyone.

Yes you are


No one is asking for BST to be some penalty free DD

This is precisely what you are all asking for and is an example of you gaslighting people


The distance penalty creates more issues than it solve

As the previous problem was a complete breakdown in game mechanics, it's not possible for them to create more issues.

BST is perfectly fine now, you no longer can stay back at 20 feet and spam ready macro while watching TV. Now you need to pay attention to the fight mechanics, run in and out of range while maintaining situational awareness and adjusting gear dynamically. You and most other terribad BST's are incapable of doing that, you played BST because it was an "easy" way to get stuff done and since it's no longer "easy mode" you feel bad. The good BST's have long since adjusted their play style and are doing just as well as before, I know because I play with a bunch of epic BST's.

[Rwolf]

You don't know what gaslighting means if you're trying to say anyone speaking their opinion on this forum thread is trying to manipulate someone into questioning their own sanity.

You might be that emotionally charged to continue attacking people on forums but I'm not taking that in. You're aren't trying to have a discussion. Just starting arguments by going after someone's character in order to bully people away from topics you don't agree with.

I won't defend myself against your accusations because their unfounded and ridiculous. Please continue attacking me personally so I can report you.

[saevel]

Projection much.

[Rwolf]

You enjoy trying to rile people up with misdirection.

The topic is concerning BST distancing pros and cons. Not medical analogies. Not attacking personal character. Not calling people horrible BSTs for disagreeing with the changes with no knowledge of what content they are actually completing.

I apologize to others continuing derailing. Continue shouting into the void if you want (block). I'm all for disagreement but this is just petty internet fighting because someone has an opinion you don't agree with.

[saevel]

No SE won't remove the distance restriction. Please continue holding your breath waiting for them.

[Nyarlko]

This is precisely what you are all asking for and is an example of you gaslighting people
No one has asked for a full revision. What the OP asked for, which I wholeheartedly agree with, is that the JA range needs to be increased slightly (I suggested ~9-10y) to allow us to function the way the devs have told us to function. If it wouldn't require a full rebuild of the pet system, I think that changing JAs so they cared about distance-to-target instead of distance-to-pet would also work.


As the previous problem was a complete breakdown in game mechanics, it's not possible for them to create more issues.
As is, it is quite easy to get an "out of range" error while meleeing with your pet if you are more than a few degrees to the side of your pet. The range nerf was a bugged solution which exasperated existing racial differences and it's been long enough that revising the range would not cause BST to jump back up as the FOM bandwagon job.


BST is perfectly fine now, you no longer can stay back at 20 feet and spam ready macro while watching TV. Now you need to pay attention to the fight mechanics, run in and out of range while maintaining situational awareness and adjusting gear dynamically. You and most other terribad BST's are incapable of doing that, you played BST because it was an "easy" way to get stuff done and since it's no longer "easy mode" you feel bad. The good BST's have long since adjusted their play style and are doing just as well as before, I know because I play with a bunch of epic BST's.
For the {Over there.} BSTs, nothing changed other than needing to run in/out for JAs. This was enough to chase off the "terribad" bandwagoners, but those who enjoy the job are still here, and it is a very reasonable request for an adjustment that is required for us to be able to play the job the way the devs have stated that they want us to.

[Rwolf]

If the community reps could get involved. I'm curious what the dev team thinks the playstyle vision is for BST currently after player feedback.

I'm all for going back to meleeing with my pet, but it seems the lack of hybrid options and incentive to do so isn't there. The Charmer's Merlin alone is a huge DPS drop not to use it.

They stated in another thread choosing it or another axe is a decision to make what is more important. But its been proven its a huge drop in DPS. Currently the play style has evolved into a run in/out short range Summoner type, swapping weapons.

I feel the class is way more than that and that currently the job isn't living up to what was known as their vision for masters to melee.

Maybe they are OK with things as is given the effort it would take. But if the dev team says BST is intended to melee with pet and they want our feedback on changes even with reduced capacity. I think its logical to say hey that's not what's going on here.

[Kishr]

The shit storm is back
I still have yet to hear a decent argument against the current distance.
If your doing dps with a charmers you have more issues than just the distance nerf.

[Nyarlko]

The shit storm is back
I still have yet to hear a decent argument against the current distance.

The current distance is bugged. It is possible to get OOR errors when meleeing with pet if you are not standing on your pet. The range is affected by both player race and pet model size, and for a taru w/ a small model pet, the range is less than melee range.. Still want to argue that nothing is wrong with it?

[Kishr]

The range is so small between races its barely significant, that argument is completely invalid.
If you fight 90 degrees from the front of the mob you will have zero issues,
even if you fight directly behind the mob you will have zero issues.
Why fight behind it anyway? 90 degrees is fine to avoid conal attacks,
if your worried about aoe, its called aoe for a reason, its a circular area of effect, fighting behind it wont change that.
Not sure why your feeding the mob tp by dps'ing unless you have guttler or aymur,
by the problems with distance your discussion I'm going to guess you dont.
The reverse side of this argument that people here in this thread seem to have a hard time accepting is,
people just deal with the current distance and have no issues with the way it is.
The counter argument the other side is stating is its 'bugged by race', too severe of a nerf, must fight 'on' mob, bst isnt a melee.
Having a opinion about not having a issue with the current state of the job seems to get people here all riled up.
Call it whatever you would like, its a opinion.

[Songen]

actually, its bugged by the pets position to the mob, tiger for example can achieve a 10'-11' distance for the master (In comparison to the mob) to use ready and sometimes further depending on if the mob is a larger frame, i'v achieved 13'-15' (To the mob) with tiger during SR on the dragon. you have to engage the tiger from a slightly further distance so it'll walk to its maximum distance which is dependant on the mobs frame size.
now if you want to avoid conal attacks and stand at 90degrees or even on the other side of the mob and you want to melee, you need to bring the tiger as close as possible to the mob,, pretty much engage the pet at 0.5'-1' and you'll have a large area around the mob to use ready, albeit you have to make sure you more further in if your using something like the lizard or grasshopper(I believe theres is like 6-8' distance to the pet like everyones saying) if your meleeing too, however its doable even for large frame mobs, just make sure the pets as close as possible, and don't stand at the outside edge of the larger mobs frame. if you unlock your target, you can walk further in.

for those that keep going on about it,race has nothing to do with it, the point of using the ability is dead centre of your charactor (Whether its small or large) to the frame of the pet, if the pet has a small frame, the distance is smaller, if the pet has a larger frame, the distance is larger,

[saevel]

The shit storm is back
I still have yet to hear a decent argument against the current distance.
If your doing dps with a charmers you have more issues than just the distance nerf.

They want it easy like it was before the nerf. Where they stood at max range, put minimal effort in and crushed all the content far faster then anyone else. Now they need to run in and get hit with all those nasty attacks that hurt other players, attacks they feel entitled to avoid because they used to avoid them.

Whining BST > Wahh this nerf sucks I have to be too close to the monster and am getting killed by all this damage, SE needs to fix this NOW!

Players > Duh you are supposed to deal with that like we have to, that is what the update was about

*Triggered* Whining BST > BLAARRRRGGGG stop oppressing me WAAAAAHHHHHH you are bad people BLAHHHHHH why do you hate BSTS WHY YOU TAKE OUR TOYS AWAY T.T

Basically an emotional reaction to having easy mode taken away after feeling entitled to it. It's going to happen to SMN soon, so be prepared for a huge explosion followed by community backlash.

[Nyarlko]

The range is so small between races its barely significant, that argument is completely invalid.
If you fight 90 degrees from the front of the mob you will have zero issues,
even if you fight directly behind the mob you will have zero issues.
Why fight behind it anyway? 90 degrees is fine to avoid conal attacks,
if your worried about aoe, its called aoe for a reason, its a circular area of effect, fighting behind it wont change that.
Not sure why your feeding the mob tp by dps'ing unless you have guttler or aymur,
by the problems with distance your discussion I'm going to guess you dont.
The reverse side of this argument that people here in this thread seem to have a hard time accepting is,
people just deal with the current distance and have no issues with the way it is.
The counter argument the other side is stating is its 'bugged by race', too severe of a nerf, must fight 'on' mob, bst isnt a melee.
Having a opinion about not having a issue with the current state of the job seems to get people here all riled up.
Call it whatever you would like, its a opinion.

It's ~5% diff between races while using the same pet, which is significant. Using diff pets compounds the issue. The racial difference value was most likely there to begin with but was less noticeable when the range was larger. (I've got a feeling that it's actually a universal issue and should probably be treated as a separate fix to BST JA range. BST is just the job that the issue impacts play the most due to having the smallest JA range in the game.)
If you fight 90' from the front of a large+ size mob, you WILL have problems. (Especially if you are a taru.)
Feeding the mob TP is precisely what the devs want us to do. They WANT us in there swinging away. The devs DO consider BST a melee, we've just adapted the playstyle into a ranged method to bypass the downsides of meleeing. It's sort of like how NIN was not intended to be a tank and we made it into one. Difference there is that the devs rolled with NIN tanking and added gear/JAs to support it, while a common BST playstyle involves swapping weapons to much to even gain enough TP to WS and it is impossible to gear both master/pet simultaneously to handle endgame meleeing.

Opinions are good! :D It's fine to have a differing opinion, but we should all try to stay cool-headed and expect dissension/debate with others without being snarky. (Please do call me out on this if I fail. ^^;; Odds are good that it wasn't intentional.)

[Sirmarki]

A few other aspects that BST's have to deal with is stuck pets, and pets going crazy and all over the place when multiple mobs are involved. I.e: Tenzen, having to constantly pull your pet back to fight the actual mob, and well (for those that still do it) Besieged whereby your pet just goes all over the place and out of range.

My issue is rewarding, if anything that should be stepped up range wise because sometimes when fighting the same mob I get "out of range" when I'm trying to CURE my pet.

[Zeargi]

They want it easy like it was before the nerf. Where they stood at max range, put minimal effort in and crushed all the content far faster then anyone else. Now they need to run in and get hit with all those nasty attacks that hurt other players, attacks they feel entitled to avoid because they used to avoid them.

Whining BST > Wahh this nerf sucks I have to be too close to the monster and am getting killed by all this damage, SE needs to fix this NOW!

Players > Duh you are supposed to deal with that like we have to, that is what the update was about

*Triggered* Whining BST > BLAARRRRGGGG stop oppressing me WAAAAAHHHHHH you are bad people BLAHHHHHH why do you hate BSTS WHY YOU TAKE OUR TOYS AWAY T.T

Basically an emotional reaction to having easy mode taken away after feeling entitled to it. It's going to happen to SMN soon, so be prepared for a huge explosion followed by community backlash.

I don't think that's the case at all. It would be different if BST had all the traits that other Melee jobs get, but they don't. They get little compensation for the adjustment to their mechanic. Ultimately, BST need a merit JA change to give them use of their circle ability via leveling, just like all the other jobs (SAM, PLD, DRK, DRG) and better traits to give them survivability while fighting. As well as changes to their combat skills and equipment to open the versatility that should have been there from the start, if that was the "intended" vision for the job. They're no reason that a WHM should have a higher combat skill with shields if BST is suppose to only main hand an Axe. Furthermore, where are the BST exclusive shields to help that (Even though most BST will be subbing DNC/NIN and never be just using 1 Axe). BST gets the same Evasion and ~Parry skill as that of a WAR, but no where near the weapon choices or supportive JT and JA.

BST:
1 Wide Scan III
10 Vermin Killer I
15 Resist Slow I
15 Resist Amnesia I
20 Bird Killer I
30 Amorph Killer I
35 Resist Slow II
35 Resist Amnesia II
40 Lizard Killer I
50 Aquan Killer I
55 Resist Slow III
55 Resist Amnesia III
60 Plantoid Killer I
60 Wide Scan IV
70 Beast Killer I
75 Resist Slow IV
75 Resist Amnesia IV
75 Merit Points Beast Affinity
75 Merit Points Beast Healer
76 Vermin Killer II
78 Stout Servant I
79 Bird Killer II
80 Fencer
80 Wide Scan V
81 Resist Slow V
82 Amorph Killer II
85 Lizard Killer II
87 Fencer II
88 Stout Servant II
88 Aquan Killer II
91 Plantoid Killer II
94 Beast Killer II
94 Fencer III
95 Resist Amnesia V
98 Stout Servant III

(JA)
1 Familiar
1 Charm
10 Gauge
12 Reward
23 Call Beast
23 Bestial Loyalty
30 Tame
75 Merit Points Feral Howl
75 Merit Points Killer Instinct*
96 Unleash

WAR:
(JT)
10 Defense Bonus I
15 Resist Virus I
25 Double Attack I
30 Max HP Boost I
30 Attack Bonus I
35 Resist Virus II
35 Smite I
45 Fencer I
45 Defense Bonus II
50 Double Attack II
50 Max HP Boost II
55 Resist Virus III
58 Fencer II
65 Attack Bonus II
65 Smite II
70 Resist Virus IV
70 Max HP Boost III
71 Fencer III
75 Merit Points Savagery
75 Merit Points Aggressive Aim
75 Double Attack III
78 Crit. Atk. Bonus I
80 Shield Def. Bonus I
80 Shield Mastery I
81 Resist Virus V
84 Fencer IV
85 Double Attack IV
86 Defense Bonus III
86 Crit. Atk. Bonus II
87 Shield Mastery II
88 Shield Def. Bonus II
90 Max HP Boost IV
91 Attack Bonus II
93 Shield Mastery III
95 Smite III
97 Fencer V
99 Double Attack V
99 Shield Def. Bonus III

(JA)
Name
1 Mighty Strikes
5 Provoke
15 Berserk
25 Defender
35 Warcry
45 Aggressor
60 Retaliation
75 Merit Points Warrior's Charge
75 Merit Points Tomahawk
77 Restraint
87 Blood Rage
96 Brazen Rush

As you can see, BST's only combat enhancing related skills are Fencer and Stout Servant
Where WAR, has a crap ton of things to help them. Also, almost every JA WAR has can still be used later in the game. After 23 and almost everything else in the end game, Charm and Gauge become completely useless as nothing in the new areas can be chamed, and most content takes place in confined battle fields. And as I've mention before: why does BST's circle ability have to be a merit slot, which could have been used for something far greater, when all the other circles are learned via leveling and don't require an active pet to use.

And even if you don't want to compare it to WAR, the next closes jobs would be MNK/PUP

MNK:
(JT)
1 Martial Arts I
5 Subtle Blow I
10 Counter I
15 Max HP Boost I
16 Martial Arts II
20 Subtle Blow II
31 Martial Arts III
35 Max HP Boost II
40 Subtle Blow III
40 Smite I
46 Martial Arts IV
51 Kick Attacks I
55 Max HP Boost III
61 Martial Arts V
65 Subtle Blow IV
70 Max HP Boost IV
71 Kick Attacks II
75 Martial Arts VI
75 Merit Points Invigorate
75 Merit Points Penance
76 Kick Attacks III
77 Tactical Guard I
80 Smite II
81 Counter II
82 Martial Arts VII
85 Skillchain Bonus I
86 Max HP Boost V
87 Tactical Guard II
91 Subtle Blow V
95 Skillchain Bonus II
96 Max HP Boost VI
97 Tactical Guard III

PUP:
10 Resist Slow I
15 Resist Amnesia I
20 Evasion Bonus I
25 Martial Arts I
35 Resist Amnesia II
40 Evasion Bonus II
50 Resist Slow II
50 Martial Arts II
55 Resist Amnesia III
60 Evasion Bonus III
60 Smite I
70 Resist Slow III
75 Martial Arts III
75 Merit Points Fine-Tuning
75 Merit Points Optimization
75 Resist Amnesia IV
76 Evasion Bonus IV
78 Stout Servant I
80 Tactical Guard I
81 Resist Slow IV
85 Crit. Def. Bonus I
86 Martial Arts IV
88 Stout Servant II
90 Tactical Guard II
95 Resist Amnesia V
95 Crit. Def. Bonus II
97 Martial Arts V
98 Stout Servant III

I'm all for BST fighting along side things, but as a whole the job needs to be looked at so to bring it up to where it should be, and an increase to the range of certain abilities like Reward, Sic, Stay, and Heel. As well as a set increase to the range for Ready, so that regardless of the character/pet/enemy models the ability will work as it should.

On a side note, I love that everyone else ignore the fact that no one cried foul for RNGs, CORs, and SAMs being able to keep their distance from things and do massive dmg.

[Rwolf]

The shit storm is back
I still have yet to hear a decent argument against the current distance.
If your doing dps with a charmers you have more issues than just the distance nerf.

If you don't understand what Charmer's Merlin does for BST DPS currently and what happens when you don't use it. I don't know why you're arguing vehemently against mechanics you don't understand.

[Rwolf]

The current play style for BST is to be a buggy melee range SMN. Switching between weapons for -damage taken idle, sic/ready recast and Pet: TP bonus/ATK/ACC. Running in a singular line, back and forth, behind the pet. It does not fit the vision the devs state they want BST to be in.

The distance solution was a kneejerk reaction. It satiated the angry masses who know little to nothing about the job. Only that they were sick and tired of BST only DD shouts and that they sat back there doing all that damage safely while being half AFK mashing a button. I'm not a fan of those tactics but I don't think it deserves the changes it got.

Distance didn't weed out the "horribad BST bandwagoners". As soon as the update hit, it just went from BST/whatever to BST/NIN and bring a GEO and healer. It wasn't until subsequent updates (evasion, AoE, armor and weapons) that changed the shift away from this view that BST is the only safe reliable route. The issues were in the game's flaws at the time and BSTs circumvented it by updated during that time.

Pull BST in range. Great. BST pre-pet changes was doing that anyway to boost DPS in between your pet gaining TP for moves. But there is no current incentive to melee, only penalties.

No melee Job Traits except Fencer.
Dependency on Charmer's Merlin to lower Sic/Ready charges.
Hybrid armor is generally only Accuracy and Haste.
No good attack pets of each of the 7 families to make use of Killer Instinct and no debuff version like the other circle jobs.
Master melee damage cannot make up the massive difference between Pet: TP Bonus and Sic/Ready delay weapons.

I have no desire to convince BST hating players that shout their propaganda that any suggestions to change is an insidious plan to turn BST into a DD that just sits back and idles. That anger, wherever it's from is not going to dissipate. The feedback is for the devs who requested trying the distance changes out and providing feedback.

For the Community Reps to focus on.

The distance changes are not having BST players melee. Simply run in and out of range tactics. I feel personally it causes confusion to add a distance mechanic focused on the pet and not the target.

Is this a compromise given current resources? Is it possible to look into alternative solutions? Ones that encourage melee and makes up the power difference lost from Pet: TP Bonus and/or Sic/Ready recast.

[Khiril]

I really can't believe this is even an argument.

Is max range for bst kind of against proper play style befitting a "melee" like bst: yes
Is the current range absurdly low: yes

Where's the disagreement here? If you can hit the mob you should be able to use ready sic and reward without fail, but you can't always, that's literally broken.

[Songen]

i'd be happy if atleast changed the reward distance to 20'+, that way if the mobs AoE'd and i gotta get outta range, atleast i can heal the pet while i run

[Kishr]

If you don't understand Charmer's Merlin does.

I can't take this seriously.

It's used for 1 second, not for dps.

[Rwolf]

I can't take this seriously.

It's used for 1 second, not for dps.

Charmer's Merlin is a significant DPS increase. It lowers sic/ready recast by 5 seconds per charge. Without using it, that lost recast time adds up quickly.

For example. In a 3 minute time span, a BST with 10 second recast on charges (using Charmer's Merlin) has potentially 18 charges in that time frame. Without just the axe, it drops to 12 charges in 3 minutes. That is lost Damage Per Second.

[saevel]

Charmer's Merlin is a significant DPS increase. It lowers sic/ready recast by 5 seconds per charge. Without using it, that lost recast time adds up quickly.

For example. In a 3 minute time span, a BST with 10 second recast on charges (using Charmer's Merlin) has potentially 18 charges in that time frame. Without just the axe, it drops to 12 charges in 3 minutes. That is lost Damage Per Second.

That sound your hearing .... that's the point whooshing by your head.

[Kishr]

Not for 'self melee dps' , I think is the misunderstanding here.
Yes it removes 5 seconds,
I think anyone that did any research at all knows that.
Let's remove ourselves from personal attacks and stay on topic.

[Kishr]

aspects that BST's have to deal with is stuck pets, and pets going crazy and all over the place when multiple mobs are involved. I.e: Tenzen.

I'll agree and at the same time disagree.

I can solo tenzen on D

With that said, yes tiger goes randomly to the Taru's.

Just hit 'fight' again, pet attacks, which sucks, but something you must deal with, whichever mob drew more hate.

It's just how that fight works.

[Rwolf]

Not for 'self melee dps' , I think is the misunderstanding here.
Yes it removes 5 seconds,
I think anyone that did any research at all knows that.
Let's remove ourselves from personal attacks and stay on topic.

I'm personally attacking you because you jumped to snarl with misinformation? That's rich coming from someone who said I have issues if I think Charmer's affects DPS. Then tried to end it with being condescending about research.

Charmer's affects Master DPS and Pet DPS. I took the time out to explain the importance of it. I'm not playing mind games about who is attacking who. I agree on not derailing the topic any further.

[Kishr]

Enjoy your my opinion is better attitude, that's all it is.

Mine is, the current system works fine.

That's my feedback.
If you don't like it, I didn't ask for your opinion. If you can't talk without aggressive speech, clearly charmers merlin is the least of your worries right now.

[Rwolf]

My opinion is the same as anyone else. I enjoy pros and cons. State your opinions and discuss.

You came in aggressive, cursing, demeaning and personally attacking posters. And wrong, not opinion. Fact that Charmer's merlin affects Pet DPS and Master DPS because it is not an item level weapon and swapping loses TP.

I'm not trying to convince you. I dont care what you believe. But I'm not going to ignore aggressive claims to my posts. Clearly you want to turn this into some focal point of still being aggressive while victimizing.

You can take a block as well. The topic is more important than dueling with your bruised ego.

[Nyclia]

Just a little add for Square Enix.

I heared from other players that they stopped playing BST because of this ridiculous low distance to use pet moves. I will do the same from now on, since i can't live/play with it. Totally destroyed the fun and i just feel restricted too much.

If i have to be BST in Omen, then there is no avoiding it. But that's it. Thx SE...

[Songen]

I believe the macro for melee bst and charmers's fitting in as Kishr is stating is
(Remember with current capped haste/haste/double attack/triple attack/store tp)
3-10 seconds master building tp
/equipset ??? (What ever is your WS set)
/ws "Masters WS name" <t>
/wait 3
/equipset ??? (What ever is your pet WS set is including charmer's in OFF hand which won't affect pet ilv since ilv is based off main hand, at which point masters tp is reseting)
/pet "WSname" <t>
/wait 1
/equipset ??? (This will remove charmer's and re-equip masters tp set including offhanding masters tp axe and reseting masters tp again)

3-10 seconds tp build for master again then repeat

In theory if your soloing, or duoing, or you and your pet are the only WSers, SCing is better, while its about a 12-15 second rotation it is a stronger set since you can max out pet recast (Gaining or lossing recast time depending on your haste/tp set) while creating SCs for the pet, for example. Spinning axe a 7k -> Razor fang 15k = 9k Fusion SC for 60% of the dmg, (Total colated dmg of 31k in 15 seconds)
Of cause to achieve those numbers you would need to have a fairly good set for both pet/master and their respective tp/WS sets, also if you have a geo with geohaste/defence down and/or cor with sam roll and beast roll you can achieve higher numbers than that because of mobs less defence and faster tp build (Meaning the master scales better too(E.g. 12k Spinning axe -> 20k Razor fang = 12k SC equalling a total of 44k in 15 seconds)

While the pet's WS does scale with tp, your not gonna get much in a 15 second period (Even with double attack/haste sets), so causing a SC will add more dmg by the time it comes around.

Having said that, if pet burn partys(Where you have 3-10 pet jobs going nuts), master meleeing is out of the question since they need to be out of range of mobs AoE attacks/enfeebles during cooldown times

Conclusion: Its all about how good your gear is, what the situation is: Is someone gonna break your SC?, are you using unleash?, Is the mob's AoE attacks going to affect you with status ailments that will affect your tp build time or give you things that stop your ability to use a pet? such a paralyse, sleep,petrify, tp reset, Or a move that'll down right kill you, etc etc .

Thats my opinion, feel free to think what you like, i adjust to the situation

[Nyarlko]

I believe the macro for melee bst and charmers's fitting in as Kishr is stating is
(Remember with current capped haste/haste/double attack/triple attack/store tp)
3-10 seconds master building tp
/equipset ??? (What ever is your WS set)
/ws "Masters WS name" <t>
/wait 3
/equipset ??? (What ever is your pet WS set is including charmer's in OFF hand which won't affect pet ilv since ilv is based off main hand, at which point masters tp is reseting)
/pet "WSname" <t>
/wait 1
/equipset ??? (This will remove charmer's and re-equip masters tp set including offhanding masters tp axe and reseting masters tp again)

3-10 seconds tp build for master again then repeat

In theory if your soloing, or duoing, or you and your pet are the only WSers, SCing is better, while its about a 12-15 second rotation it is a stronger set since you can max out pet recast (Gaining or lossing recast time depending on your haste/tp set) while creating SCs for the pet, for example. Spinning axe a 7k -> Razor fang 15k = 13k Fusion SC for 60% of the dmg, (Total colated dmg of 35k in 15 seconds)
Of cause to achieve those numbers you would need to have a fairly good set for both pet/master and their respective tp/WS sets, also if you have a geo with geohaste/defence down and/or cor with sam roll and beast roll you can achieve higher numbers than that because of mobs less defence and faster tp build (Meaning the master scales better too(E.g. 12k Spinning axe -> 20k Razor fang = 12k SC equalling a total of 44k in 15 seconds)

While the pet's WS does scale with tp, your not gonna get much in a 15 second period (Even with double attack/haste sets), so causing a SC will add more dmg by the time it comes around.

Having said that, if pet burn partys(Where you have 3-10 pet jobs going nuts), master meleeing is out of the question since they need to be out of range of mobs AoE attacks/enfeebles during cooldown times

Conclusion: Its all about how good your gear is, what the situation is: Is someone gonna break your SC?, are you using unleash?, Is the mob's AoE attacks going to affect you with status ailments that will affect your tp build time or give you things that stop your ability to use a pet? such a paralyse, sleep,petrify, tp reset, Or a move that'll down right kill you, etc etc .

Thats my opinion, feel free to think what you like, i adjust to the situation

Keep in mind that a well-geared pet-only BST is likely to have a full wardrobe+ just for pets and would likely need 20-40 slots to properly set up for meleeing as well.. I see no logic or reasonable justification for any job requiring 120+ pieces of gear to play the way the devs want us to. They would need to give us a JT to share stats between master/pet to keep inventory requirements from exploding.

Also, while you are TPing, your pet is likely missing. So, a big question is whether or not your personal output matches your pet's. That includes factoring in the damage lost over time due to delaying Readys and missed white damage VS master white damage plus WS. When Ready-5 can result in a 50% increase in Ready damage (15sec > 10sec = 4/min > 6/min, and why we bother using Charmer's at all at this point,) you really need something in order to justify every extra second between Readys.

None of that even takes into account that BST melee is BORING! >_<;; It is literally nothing but auto-attack > WS spam... If I wanted to whack things with an axe, I'd jump on WAR since they can WS AND have actual JA/JT that affect combat! /shock

I've experimented with the playstyle before and our best bet would probably be changing pets from the common standards, though we're looking at primarily 3-charge moves...
Tulfaire can make Darkness with you (Primal Rend/Onslaugh > Pentapeck), and Light with you (Cloudsplitter > Swooping Frenzy.)
Chapuli can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter > Tegmina Buffet.)
Raptor can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter/Ruinator > Chomp Rush.)
Apkallu can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter/Ruinator > Wing Slap.)

A big restriction though is that pet always has to close due to master TP loss. All require 2-3-charge moves, so you are looking at a SC every 20-30sec. Odds are against this providing more overall damage output over time without painfully excessive gearing. A properly geared melee BST's damage output is likely to be higher solo SC spamming while ignoring the pet entirely. (One of my first Apex CP parties ever had a melee BST who was cranking out 30k-50k Cloudsplitters every 3-4sec or so... If he had bothered with his pet, it would be numerically impossible for the pet to compensate for his personal damage loss.. This was before Reisenjima was added too, so should be able to reach higher numbers now I'd think.)

It also doesn't really matter if it's theoretically possible to pull off both if, in order to do so, it requires twice as much gear as any other job, and twice as complicated to pull off numbers that are likely to be, at best, similar to what a simpler-to-gear melee can do. The current BST JA range is a direct hindrance to playing it the way we are being told to. It is an unarguable problem when any jobs' JA range is less than melee range on certain targets.

[Gwydion]

I agree.

BST is all about the pet. I don't TP as BST to keep my pet with high stats.

I've played BST solo and in party for about 15 years and the distance changes to 7 yalms, is truly heartbreaking.

[Songen]

Keep in mind that a well-geared pet-only BST is likely to have a full wardrobe+ just for pets and would likely need 20-40 slots to properly set up for meleeing as well.. I see no logic or reasonable justification for any job requiring 120+ pieces of gear to play the way the devs want us to. They would need to give us a JT to share stats between master/pet to keep inventory requirements from exploding.

Also, while you are TPing, your pet is likely missing. So, a big question is whether or not your personal output matches your pet's. That includes factoring in the damage lost over time due to delaying Readys and missed white damage VS master white damage plus WS. When Ready-5 can result in a 50% increase in Ready damage (15sec > 10sec = 4/min > 6/min, and why we bother using Charmer's at all at this point,) you really need something in order to justify every extra second between Readys.

None of that even takes into account that BST melee is BORING! >_<;; It is literally nothing but auto-attack > WS spam... If I wanted to whack things with an axe, I'd jump on WAR since they can WS AND have actual JA/JT that affect combat! /shock

I've experimented with the playstyle before and our best bet would probably be changing pets from the common standards, though we're looking at primarily 3-charge moves...
Tulfaire can make Darkness with you (Primal Rend/Onslaugh > Pentapeck), and Light with you (Cloudsplitter > Swooping Frenzy.)
Chapuli can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter > Tegmina Buffet.)
Raptor can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter/Ruinator > Chomp Rush.)
Apkallu can make Darkness (Cloudsplitter/Ruinator > Wing Slap.)

A big restriction though is that pet always has to close due to master TP loss. All require 2-3-charge moves, so you are looking at a SC every 20-30sec. Odds are against this providing more overall damage output over time without painfully excessive gearing. A properly geared melee BST's damage output is likely to be higher solo SC spamming while ignoring the pet entirely. (One of my first Apex CP parties ever had a melee BST who was cranking out 30k-50k Cloudsplitters every 3-4sec or so... If he had bothered with his pet, it would be numerically impossible for the pet to compensate for his personal damage loss.. This was before Reisenjima was added too, so should be able to reach higher numbers now I'd think.)

It also doesn't really matter if it's theoretically possible to pull off both if, in order to do so, it requires twice as much gear as any other job, and twice as complicated to pull off numbers that are likely to be, at best, similar to what a simpler-to-gear melee can do. The current BST JA range is a direct hindrance to playing it the way we are being told to. It is an unarguable problem when any jobs' JA range is less than melee range on certain targets.

I said it before, and this reply from you proves it. Your here to troll and thats it. since you have already said your a master bst you would have realised you would simply add 1 set of master tp gear and 1 set of master WS gear (Thats a max of 18-24 pieces) on top of what you already have (Since I can presume you already havel the best bst pet gear since you already use bst's ready commands in the first place and as for most people, they would already have the master tp/ws gear from other jobs that use the same slots).

White dmg? i broke it with masters WS dmg (600-1k pet dmg to a masters 7kdmg?),

Its better to use cloudsplitter to a level 3 pet WS? you odviously have no idea how the whole SC process works in matching it with a pet (And whats needed to make that kind of dmg) since you only observed that bst use it and never tried using it properly yourself, i am very familiar with cloudspliter and its potentual however you have no liking for it since you already said "BST melee is BORING" so don't be a hypocrite.
I also know very well what SCs do in terms of dmg (Expecially since i was replying in terms of "ready spam vs master + pet ready combo" and i was replying in terms of maximising the dmg potentual in that situation)

While i could break down your entire arguement, Theres no reason, I already stated that : how you play is situational (Summed up),

Just because you don't like what someones saying even if its based on facts and experience, you shouldn't be bias about it I know your only here to troll with baseless values as you already have and probably always will. Get a life and stop trolling.

If there are those who say they like to melee or don't like to melee, or they want to use their pet only or want to use it in a combo, let them do that. Don't disregard someone else's opinion because your bias

[Nyarlko]

I said it before, and this reply from you proves it. Your here to troll and thats it.
You need to chill. Might also want to look up the definition of "trolling" since you really don't seem to have a proper grasp of the meaning of the word. ^^


since you have already said your a master bst you would have realised you would simply add 1 set of master tp gear and 1 set of master WS gear (Thats a max of 18-24 pieces) on top of what you already have (Since I can presume you already havel the best bst pet gear since you already use bst's ready commands in the first place and as for most people, they would already have the master tp/ws gear from other jobs that use the same slots).
Yep, I have good pet gear for my BST, though I'm not BIS for the most part (no REMA, Oseem hates me, etc.) I have nearly zero melee armor that can be shared with BST since I play BST/BLU/BLM/THF/GEO. Accessories are alljobs for the most part, so should be able to double up and cut down on some acquisitions, but I'd probably be looking at farming up an extra 3-5+ full Valorous sets depending on how proper a job I want to do. My estimate may be just me wanting to not-suck, but it is a fact that others are not super likely to have much melee gear that BST can wear.

Last I checked, axe provides more than a single ws that would require a set. Even your "18-24" falls within my "20-40" but probably doesn't account for everything that I am accounting for (Cure set, enhancing set, high-acc set, low-acc set, multiple WS set, etc.) It takes a lot more than a single TP set and a single WS set to be not-useless as a melee, regardless of the job.


White dmg? i broke it with masters WS dmg (600-1k pet dmg to a masters 7kdmg?),
If your pet does not do comparable white damage to a melee job, then you need to work on your pet TP set. >.>;; They should be close to each other if geared decently, but pets tend to perform a bit better than the player at lower gear levels. A full melee geared BST would probably do more than a pet, but basing discussion on BIS scenarios is never a wise thing to do since the majority won't be able to reach that level.


Its better to use cloudsplitter to a level 3 pet WS? you odviously have no idea how the whole SC process works in matching it with a pet (And whats needed to make that kind of dmg) since you only observed that bst use it and never tried using it properly yourself, i am very familiar with cloudspliter and its potentual however you have no liking for it since you already said "BST melee is BORING" so don't be a hypocrite.
I also know very well what SCs do in terms of dmg (Expecially since i was replying in terms of "ready spam vs master + pet ready combo" and i was replying in terms of maximising the dmg potentual in that situation)
You also need to look up the definition for "hypocrite" since you are again, not using a word properly. ^^;; Saying basically "Well, >this< could work but I personally don't like that playstyle." is not being hypocritical. You don't have to actively do something in order to discuss the viability of doing so.

I used my Apex story as an example of what we are capable of when geared for it, it's a good thing! It would also be a straight mathematical damage loss in that gear to bother with hitting a Ready macro, regardless of which pet you want to use. That doesn't change due to my personal reluctance to gear up an unsupported melee job in order to melee.

For master+pet skillchains, I believe that the math is probably in favor of doing lv3 SC instead of lv1-2, due to increased Ready, skillchain and MB damage. In non-capped scenarios, Tegmina can be expected to do ~2x as much as Razor Fang for instance, which will result in higher base SC damage and MB damage. If your pet is attack ratio capped, then using 1-charge moves would be better, but in that case, you are rolling with a group which would most likely change your priority list anyway.

It's unarguable that BST melee is boring by comparison to every other intended-to-melee job by default. We have no JA/JT/magic to support/enhance meleeing other than Fencer, which is frequently outweighed by the benefits of dual-wielding (which I personally feel should be a native trait to unlock our subjob choices.) Can you honestly say that having no active abilities and doing nothing but hitting a ws macro every few seconds sounds not-boring? ^^;; In case you were doing so, you can not include most subjob resources when looking at job balance, and the lack of anything to encourage us to hit things with an axe leaves BST in a very unexciting position.


While i could break down your entire arguement, Theres no reason, I already stated that : how you play is situational (Summed up),

Just because you don't like what someones saying even if its based on facts and experience, you shouldn't be bias about it I know your only here to troll with baseless values as you already have and probably always will. Get a life and stop trolling.

If there are those who say they like to melee or don't like to melee, or they want to use their pet only or want to use it in a combo, let them do that. Don't disregard someone else's opinion because your bias

I have said that BST has no encouragement to melee, complained about the additional space requirements to do so, doubted the possibility of properly gearing both master+pet simultaneously, and doubted the potential for master+pet damage output being superior to either alone when they are focused. I'm just looking at the napkin math and not seeing master+pet being better overall. In order to do so, you will have to sacrifice something, whether it's attack power, TP gain, SC timing, etc. As I mentioned earlier, I have experimented with it, and my results showed me that it was a loss to do so. (The melee gear I used has since been re-augmented due to uselessness so can't easily retest btw.)

The only bias that I believe to have shown would be relying on my own experience for a good part of my arguments. I do not believe that the numbers will be better for master+pet than focusing either master-only or pet-only based on my own experience or that the work/inventory involved in gearing up specifically to do so would be a worthwhile endeavor.


....... but that's enough derailment of the thread. We should be debating how badly BST's JA range sucks, not whether or not master+pet is viable. ><;;;

I apologize to the OP. orz {Please forgive me.}

[Kishr]

Has popcorn, it's back!

[Rwolf]

The previous argument that was going on was based on stating there is no correlation between Charmer's Merlin and DPS while throwing insults. Sure, you can decide to play melee BST and swap out to Charmer's and a Pet bonus axe for Ready moves.

But let's not act like there is no DPS loss from the loss of TP returned from the WS plus the couple seconds it's going to take you in a macro to cycle through back to a TP set. Every 10 seconds. And that's not counting waiting to open a SC for your pet or lose the TP you built. Master haste is not going to change this away from a loss. There's a reason melee don't swap weapons for JAs and magic.

I understand there are players who like the pet only play style and their opinions should be heard. My concern is the solution to rely on rough distance mechanics to fix BST. It has no logical reasoning behind it. There are a host of less complicated ways that are better design to push BST to the front line.

The last words on SE in regard of vision of the job and the reason for distance nerf was that the master should be meleeing with the pet. And my feedback is that nerf did nothing to help melee, and it barely changed the need to be in the front line. Most groups using BST are just running in and out of range between TP moves and magic. Using shadows/blink/stoneskin/etc as a fallback in case they get hit.

It is ridiculous in my opinion. If SE states hey we changed our mind and whatever works is their mindset. I'll take it for what it is. And encourage feedback based on that.

But currently this distance thing is not worth it and counter intuitive to how the rest of the jobs play. I'd rather they look into things like adjusting pet damage and stats, how buffs that affect pets stack, hybrid gear, etc.

[Kishr]

I don't know why you're arguing vehemently against mechanics you don't understand.

This innocent snowflake is back with his idea of what he thinks is greater than anyone else's idea.
I don't like your idea and feedback so ill call you aggressive and insulting and pretend to block you also....... get a clue..

[Stompa]

The reason BST was not intended to melee with the pet, goes back to the days when BST was a Charm-powered job.

Back in 2004, I was BST75/whm every day, and I *never* melee'd with my pet. Ever. Because you have to swap pets, get a new charm pet, and that is when you want the Enemy mob to have almost zero hate on you, so you can just Charm->Fight->Run Away and you *pray* that the charm mob hits the enemy on the first attack, or the enemy is still going to chase after you.

The idea of building hate on the mob by hitting it, and then trying to get a new charm pet, was absurd. There was no way to reset or switch hate in those days, and many BST including myself, became Very Religious and PRAYED that the new charm pet would land a critical on the first hit and so take hate from you.

We BST in those days were superstitious and religious, and extremely nervous, lol.

BST in those days was a trapeze act, a balancing act. It was not brute force, it was more like Ballet, it was all about Subtlety and Nuance.

And of course, in those days, the only way to play the job was to issue commands from a safe distance, often a VERY LONG DISTANCE, because you needed to be far away from the fight in order to have time to locate and charm new pets, and allow time for Mis-Charms and Re-Charms.

In 2004 BST was the most fun job in the world, it was actually more excitement and fun than a person should be allowed to have in life. I miss those days, QQ.

[Rwolf]

I agree with a lot of your sentiments. BST wasn't designed for direct combat, it needs changes for that. I also miss how interesting and unique BST was. To manipulate the game's environment in regard of just taking control of all types of mobs was so much fun. That fear of trying to charm an IT++ and lock it in with Familiar then walking around with this powerhouse pet felt so rewarding. Learning Leave and being able to walk through certain areas without fear of aggro as you could just Charm > Leave or do all sort of interesting things tricking mobs with charmed pets.

Games evolve. BST did have issues with being wanted for parties and while it wasn't as necessary then, I understand it is now. I can respect the limitations of not being able to charm everywhere but I do wish Charm was worth it when you have areas that have a ton of fodder mobs. Delve, Incursion, Omen, etc.

BST has so much potential. I'm just disappointed in this whole "sprinting beast mage" meta that it has turned into. It's not intuitive for players new to the game or BST given how other pets operate. I understand players are salty regarding the past bandwagoning, but there is alternatives. Working around things is not the same as working well.

[chiefhunglo]

I say they should do it and in return, they can half our hp or defense it's a win-win situation.

[ashstar]

This innocent snowflake is back with his idea of what he thinks is greater than anyone else's idea.
I don't like your idea and feedback so ill call you aggressive and insulting and pretend to block you also....... get a clue..

why do you call everyone snowflake you troll. gtfo off this forum and work on your REMAS

[Rwolf]

I'd ignore Kishr. Best way to go forward. Adds no substance. Attacks people. Gets fact checked and takes it as personal attacks. Then continues to insult people. Definition of a troll. I'm surprised they haven't gotten banned yet but community management has been sparse.

Just a distraction that BST has very real issues with distance and gameplay.

[Nyarlko]

I say they should do it and in return, they can half our hp or defense it's a win-win situation.

Neither our HP or defense are all that high normally, so this would be rather extreme. I say raise it to ~10-12y with no accompanying offset nerf so that we can at the very least, attempt to play the game they have decreed is the way we should be playing it.

[Urmom]

Neither our HP or defense are all that high normally, so this would be rather extreme. I say raise it to ~10-12y with no accompanying offset nerf so that we can at the very least, attempt to play the game they have decreed is the way we should be playing it.

I'd add if we are really going with the way they want us to play to change it from distance to your pet to distance to the mob.

[Nyarlko]

I'd add if we are really going with the way they want us to play to change it from distance to your pet to distance to the mob.

I'm pretty sure that they've already said that that is not possible. Given how often a pet will randomly run off to whack something 15y+ away from me, I'm not sure that it would be a good thing to change getting OOR messages for the Ready JA into getting OOR messages from your pet eating a charge but being way {Over there.} Increasing the range beyond melee range (to 10y-12y) should not actually do any damage to game balance, allow us to melee alongside our pet without getting OOR messages, and reduce the impact of the (personally annoying) racial range difference.

[Urmom]

I'm pretty sure that they've already said that that is not possible. Given how often a pet will randomly run off to whack something 15y+ away from me, I'm not sure that it would be a good thing to change getting OOR messages for the Ready JA into getting OOR messages from your pet eating a charge but being way {Over there.} Increasing the range beyond melee range (to 10y-12y) should not actually do any damage to game balance, allow us to melee alongside our pet without getting OOR messages, and reduce the impact of the (personally annoying) racial range difference.

They didn't say they couldn't. They said they didn't want to because something about what if the mob was around the corner and you didn't have line of sight but your pet did. I'd actually prefer dealing with that since usually if pet has hate on multiples they are relatively close and well niche situations. Easy fix to those OOR is stop making your pet so dumb. Seriously if you have to stand that close it should listen and could make it not use a charge the same way bps don't anymore.

And I was referring less to balance and more to SEs vision. As is bst is played fairly similarly to before except you run in to slightly behind your pet then run back to out of range but can't melee to the side of big mobs and ready. Increasing the range would just make that slightly safer. Of course there are other flaws in SEs vision namely no replacement for Charmer's Merlin or poor DD shield options while also not having dual wield

[Nyarlko]

They didn't say they couldn't. They said they didn't want to because something about what if the mob was around the corner and you didn't have line of sight but your pet did. I'd actually prefer dealing with that since usually if pet has hate on multiples they are relatively close and well niche situations. Easy fix to those OOR is stop making your pet so dumb. Seriously if you have to stand that close it should listen and could make it not use a charge the same way bps don't anymore.

And I was referring less to balance and more to SEs vision. As is bst is played fairly similarly to before except you run in to slightly behind your pet then run back to out of range but can't melee to the side of big mobs and ready. Increasing the range would just make that slightly safer. Of course there are other flaws in SEs vision namely no replacement for Charmer's Merlin or poor DD shield options while also not having dual wield

Those are actually only part of the problem. BST having no JAs, nor JTs other than Fencer, that involve master damage dealing would be more important than specific-use gear complaints. When it comes to specific-use gear, it would also be more important to provide base combat stats (acc/atk) to both master+pet simultaneously, since all we can do while meleeing is: build tp > ws > repeat, and preferably not a severe PITA to get ahold of. Replacing Charmer's Merlin would be next on the list, but there are actually other options to solve that issue than just an ilvl version. I've said before that it would be a good thing to move the CM's recast- to merits (along with a 10sec minimum recast cap), the pet/master accuracy issue could be solved w/ a new JT that mirrored gear acc between both, and maybe DW could be given to us at lv90+. I'm sure there plenty of other options as well.

[Urmom]

Those are actually only part of the problem. BST having no JAs, nor JTs other than Fencer, that involve master damage dealing would be more important than specific-use gear complaints. When it comes to specific-use gear, it would also be more important to provide base combat stats (acc/atk) to both master+pet simultaneously, since all we can do while meleeing is: build tp > ws > repeat, and preferably not a severe PITA to get ahold of. Replacing Charmer's Merlin would be next on the list, but there are actually other options to solve that issue than just an ilvl version. I've said before that it would be a good thing to move the CM's recast- to merits (along with a 10sec minimum recast cap), the pet/master accuracy issue could be solved w/ a new JT that mirrored gear acc between both, and maybe DW could be given to us at lv90+. I'm sure there plenty of other options as well.

Oh wasn't saying that's the only problem just the big ones.

I disagree about gear though. Charmer's merlin single handily probably effects dps more than if we added all of warriors jt/jas. Even worse that combined with the dual wield thing means we can't even get them thru subjob. Other options are still replacements in effect just not gear. It literally increases pet dps by just under 50%

Combined acc etc stats will do hardly anything to dps given just how incredibly skewed the ready to melee dmg of our pets are and the general uselessness of getting tp on them. Capped pdif several 1 charge moves do in excess of 20k (some doing more like 30-40k depending on procs) while melee hits are doing 600-800. iirc most jugs are 280-320 delay so even with capped gear haste and some from familiar looking at a hit every 3 seconds or so outside of the pig. So going from zero melee hits to fully hasted all hitting is all of about 5-12% increase in pet dps and that's assuming also hasting both

As such I'd say even Blurred Shield +1 would add about as much to bst dps (assuming we could untether charmer's) as an entire set of master and pet acc. It's only master and splits aren't quite as extreme (though ws still the vast majority of the dmg) and it's harder to compare master and pet but should increase master wsd by a good 10% (going to be really gear dependent on gear and tp) and possibly some small amount to melee dps (hard to say if it will increase hit rate and whether or not acc/att end up mattering) That said we already have that the hard part is getting that AND pet dt so it actually has the survivability that was half the argument for moving bst into range.

I'd fully support some kind of ja/jt to mirror stats though would need to be much more than just acc. Heck to get the pets melee dmg up you'd basically need to mirror at least some buffs too. Acc/att, haste, DA/TA/QA, stp at a minimum. And yes there are a lot of options and a lot of problems to the meleeing with your pet thing. Hell some aren't even particular to it. Single wielding a 1hd weapon for any job (well except dnc and pld sort of) has the huge hurdle of decreased attack speed and tp gain to overcome. There needs to be some kind of equivalent to dw, ma, hasso/LR for single wielders

[Nyarlko]

Oh wasn't saying that's the only problem just the big ones.

I disagree about gear though. Charmer's merlin single handily probably effects dps more than if we added all of warriors jt/jas. Even worse that combined with the dual wield thing means we can't even get them thru subjob. Other options are still replacements in effect just not gear. It literally increases pet dps by just under 50%

Combined acc etc stats will do hardly anything to dps given just how incredibly skewed the ready to melee dmg of our pets are and the general uselessness of getting tp on them. Capped pdif several 1 charge moves do in excess of 20k (some doing more like 30-40k depending on procs) while melee hits are doing 600-800. iirc most jugs are 280-320 delay so even with capped gear haste and some from familiar looking at a hit every 3 seconds or so outside of the pig. So going from zero melee hits to fully hasted all hitting is all of about 5-12% increase in pet dps and that's assuming also hasting both

As such I'd say even Blurred Shield +1 would add about as much to bst dps (assuming we could untether charmer's) as an entire set of master and pet acc. It's only master and splits aren't quite as extreme (though ws still the vast majority of the dmg) and it's harder to compare master and pet but should increase master wsd by a good 10% (going to be really gear dependent on gear and tp) and possibly some small amount to melee dps (hard to say if it will increase hit rate and whether or not acc/att end up mattering) That said we already have that the hard part is getting that AND pet dt so it actually has the survivability that was half the argument for moving bst into range.

I'd fully support some kind of ja/jt to mirror stats though would need to be much more than just acc. Heck to get the pets melee dmg up you'd basically need to mirror at least some buffs too. Acc/att, haste, DA/TA/QA, stp at a minimum. And yes there are a lot of options and a lot of problems to the meleeing with your pet thing. Hell some aren't even particular to it. Single wielding a 1hd weapon for any job (well except dnc and pld sort of) has the huge hurdle of decreased attack speed and tp gain to overcome. There needs to be some kind of equivalent to dw, ma, hasso/LR for single wielders

Changing merits from "recast -1 per merit" to "recast -2 per merit" along with a hard-cap on reduction to 10sec Ready recasts, would nullify the requirement of using Charmer's Merlin. That alone would give us a good shot at doing what they decreed we should be doing, since we would no longer be required to reset TP every few sec. XD Neglecting to include the 10sec cap would only result in us still using the CM and using 6sec Readys... Which would basically put us at unlimited 1-charge moves... Which would make BLUs cry for BST nerfs again. >.>;; So, let's avoid all the drama and include the cap. lol

As far as the mirroring of non-accuracy stats, I don't mind forgoing that as long as accuracy can be done. The rest of the stats could be viewed more as your focus (master ws vs pet Ready), but there is no reason that either pet/master should be forced to whiff with current gear. Since the vast majority of our gear leans one way or the other, I think that a JT something like "Master and pet each gain 50% of the other's accuracy from equipment." This would allow us to gear primarily for master while allowing the pet to not-miss, or vice versa. BST melee would still be boring, but at least it could be turned into something worth doing.

[Urmom]

Changing merits from "recast -1 per merit" to "recast -2 per merit" along with a hard-cap on reduction to 10sec Ready recasts, would nullify the requirement of using Charmer's Merlin. .

Again that is still a replacement. I didn't specify which way it needed to be replaced just that it needed to be