Ninja merits, job traits and abilitys

[xSylarx]

I feel that some ninja tier 1 and tier 2 merit are to a point useless. Tier 1 consist of augmenting ninja magic a subtle blow. Your only option is fully merit subtle blow and pick ans element. Tier 2 is the worst it has capable merits but lacks functionality. Ninja tool expertise is on of the best and money saving merits a ninja can get. Then come the San spells. elemental magic is cool but you know what would have been better turning san spell in to real scrolls and making kurayami, hojo, and jubaku san, but I understand there is nothing that can be done now .In another forum i posed Sange should instead of being a ranged attack should instead be next ws this move would be big but would only work 15 fully merited every 5. I would even go as far to say ninja should also get a new realistic job ability and traits. Dancer,thief, blue mage got duel wield why can't ninja get evasion bonus. lastly I think if would be fare to have a move similar in nature to sneak attack but only exclusive to elemental weapon skill

[Akujima]

Why would NIN not get a throwing merit when its A- in throwing?...
I cant stand all these NIN who dont think about throwing at all

[wish12oz]

Why would NIN not get a throwing merit when its A- in throwing?...
I cant stand all these NIN who dont think about throwing at all

Throwing is for low levels, once you reach 75 it's obsolete, get over it.

[Bulrogg]

It's only obsolete if you don't use it. RA can be useful in some situations but for the most part it is better to keep swinging for now.

[Akujima]

Throwing is for low levels, once you reach 75 it's obsolete, get over it.

The only reason it's obsolete is because SE decided to not allow for readily available shuriken. Nor have they added circumstantial boss fights, its just some hack and slash spree to see who gets the highest numbers (ie, who has more inches on their wang)

[wish12oz]

The only reason it's obsolete is because SE decided to not allow for readily available shuriken. Nor have they added circumstantial boss fights, its just some hack and slash spree to see who gets the highest numbers (ie, who has more inches on their wang)

I fail to see the problem here, if you don't like it, go play a different job.

[saevel]

I'm not a NIN but the way I see the merits laid out seems to indicate that you pick one or two elements and cap them out. Go 5/5 Hyoton (ice one) damage and 5/5 Hyoton: San, you now have a potent fast casting free nuke that can be thrown out whenever possible, similar to COR's quick draw. Sange is an interesting one, especially after NIN's AFv3 that gives you more shadows. If your not immediately tanking the monster you can toss our a pretty big chunk of damage.

[wish12oz]

I'm not a NIN but the way I see the merits laid out seems to indicate that you pick one or two elements and cap them out. Go 5/5 Hyoton (ice one) damage and 5/5 Hyoton: San, you now have a potent fast casting free nuke that can be thrown out whenever possible, similar to COR's quick draw. Sange is an interesting one, especially after NIN's AFv3 that gives you more shadows. If your not immediately tanking the monster you can toss our a pretty big chunk of damage.

It doesn't actually toss out a pretty chunk of damage, you actually lose damage using it, since it does less then meleeing and then also have to recast shadows you would of otherwise had, losing even more attack rounds/TP.

[Akujima]

I fail to see the problem here, if you don't like it, go play a different job.

This seems to be your only defense, but is totally absurd, because you give no explanation as to why Ninja should lose Elemental Ninjutsu AND Throwing merits altogether, other than "I don't like it". Well guess what, if you don't like it, you play another job...


It doesn't actually toss out a pretty chunk of damage, you actually lose damage using it, since it does less then meleeing and then also have to recast shadows you would of otherwise had, losing even more attack rounds/TP.

Have you even tested it out? Do you even have proper INT/Ninjutsu gear, or Ratk/Racc gear? The proper Merits in place? Run the numbers? Because I have, and have done more Dmg in Abyss with Sange throwing Manji shuriken (Lv48 ammo) than most other's WS's. Not to mention the TP it gives you for landing 5 hits. Wow great you lose your shadows.

But your solution to the problem seems to be to completely remove something entirely rather than improve upon it. It's fine though, I doubt SE will actually listen, because if Ninja loses Elemental Ninjutsu or Throwing, you might as well call it "Bladedancer" or "Assassin" and just forget that this is a Final Fantasy game.

Btw, Ninja never had "Throwing" in any previous FF installment... right?

[Bulrogg]

So you loose what, 2-3 attack rounds for tossing a sange-ruiken and recasting :Ni? Even if it was four rounds you'd have to put out 750 DMG per round to equal a 3k sange. I don't know about anyone else but my ninja isn't that "unber" to put out 750 a round unless I get super lucky and get crits and DA on each hand and that wouldn't be an every attack round kinda thing. So my ninja isn't the best; but it gets the job done with no complaints... other than yours I guess... :?

[saevel]

Was gonna say... I've seen some pretty big Hyoton's from a NIN/WAR before. Most NIN's just merit one of each to get a "SAN wheel" but their weak at level 1 merits. Pushing it to 5/5 gives you a pretty big boost to the spell, then stacking this with tier 1 merits makes it even better. But then again that is just supposed to be something you do to deal damage to an otherwise resistant monster, or to deal damage at a distance. And yeah ... I've seen some crazy big Sange's before, it just sucks that throwing weapons are so expensive.

[wish12oz]

This seems to be your only defense, but is totally absurd, because you give no explanation as to why Ninja should lose Elemental Ninjutsu AND Throwing merits altogether, other than "I don't like it". Well guess what, if you don't like it, you play another job...

My reason is that it's lower damage to throw and cast things, and also more expensive. Why you would want to lower your parse and waste gil at the same time I will never understand.



Have you even tested it out? Do you even have proper INT/Ninjutsu gear, or Ratk/Racc gear? The proper Merits in place? Run the numbers? Because I have, and have done more Dmg in Abyss with Sange throwing Manji shuriken (Lv48 ammo) than most other's WS's. Not to mention the TP it gives you for landing 5 hits. Wow great you lose your shadows.

But your solution to the problem seems to be to completely remove something entirely rather than improve upon it. It's fine though, I doubt SE will actually listen, because if Ninja loses Elemental Ninjutsu or Throwing, you might as well call it "Bladedancer" or "Assassin" and just forget that this is a Final Fantasy game.

Btw, Ninja never had "Throwing" in any previous FF installment... right?

Throwing and elemental ninjutsu are fine as they are, low level damage output, making them better would make them way to good early in the game. A smart player on a low lvl ninja can outparse every other job at low levels, increasing the damage they could do would be broken.
I would also like to direct you here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2075-Throwing?p=60431&viewfull=1#post60431

EDIT: and who gives a crap about what ninja did in a different game?

[Akujima]

EDIT: and who gives a crap about what ninja did in a different game?

People with personality and character?

[wish12oz]

People with personality and character?

ITT: "Role Players"
BELIEVE IT!!!

[Bulrogg]

I would think long term fans of the series would like to see some an homage to the games/jobs. If I wasn't a fan of the FFFranchise I wouldn't be playing the game.

[saevel]

Umm FFXI using the job system. Its been around since FFIII on the NES, and NIN has kinda always been capable of throwing stuff for massive damage. Technically NIN can still do this, but it would require an infinite supply of nearly non-existent throwing items, something that is just not possible.

Plus I have yet to understand where anyone gets "low damage" from?

[Akujima]

Technically NIN can still do this, but it would require an infinite supply of nearly non-existent throwing items, something that is just not possible.

Explain how it's not possible for SE to change the required ingredients for shuriken, or add in higher level easier to obtain shuriken? Please explain how that's not possible.

Thanks.

[wish12oz]

Explain how it's not possible for SE to change the required ingredients for shuriken, or add in higher level easier to obtain shuriken? Please explain how that's not possible.

Thanks.

Since you're trying to argue this in like 8 threads, I'm posting the same response in all of them so I know you see it.

I'm gonna spell this out for you, try not to get lost, read it til you get it.
Manji Shuriken have a 192 delay.
Kannagi+Kamome have a combined (210+180) 390 delay.
When you hit the delay reduction cap of 80%, this becomes a new delay of 78.
78+78=156, you get slightly more then 2 melee attacks rounds per throw.(throwing delay is 192)
with apoc, /war, brutal, eponas you have triple attack+18%, double attack+18%, which means 54% of the time, you get an extra attack per melee round.
So at +54% melee attacks per round, every time you attack, you get 1 extra attack, because you attack twice every round.
you get slightly more then 2 attack rounds per throw, you get 3 attacks per round.
Your throwing damage needs to be slightly better then 6 melee attacks and give as much tp as 6 melee attacks to be on par with just meleeing.
Throwing comes no where near either of these 2 things, and never will, it's impossible unless they make haste affect ranged attacks.

Argue against me, go ahead.

[s_white62]

so which merits do use?

[wish12oz]

so which merits do use?

All the merited San elemental damage spells are procs in voidwatch, so those are required. The rest of the merits for NIN don't actually help much, but I'd suggest subtle blow and NTE.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

so which merits do use?Subtle blow 5, hyoton3, raiton2, NTE4, 6xSan1. Always had san from pre TAU. They didn't do much then, but their dmg is much higher now.

[Zhronne]

so which merits do use?
I used to be 5/5 Subtle Blow, 5/5 Hyoton effect, 5/5 Ninja Tool expertise, 5/5 Hyoton: San

But with Voidwatch, since san spells are procs, I swapped to 4/5 Subtle, 1/5 in each element category, 4/5 Ninja Tool expertise, 1/5 in each of the San spells.

[MojoJojo]

I was always 4/5 sb, 1 in each element, 4/5 nte, 1 in each san. I never really tried to get a great nuke set or fire off insane hyoton nukes though so perhaps i'm a fool.

[Zhronne]

Tbh aiming for nuking sets on NIN was kinda... I dunno, stupid? Pointless? But back then I didn't have mage jobs and started messing up with the idea of using NIN as a "light nuker", so I developed a build with atmas, gear and nukes.
Not comparable to a BLM of course, but it was pretty fun, decent damage. No big spikes except with Futae Hyoton:San, but very constant stream of damage and an entertaining variation from the usual DD melee mechanics.

Nobody trusted me when I proposed friends to let me go NIN/RDM for those fights where they wanted me on a ranged/mage jobs, but the few that allowed me to usually were positively surprised :P

But anyway, those days are over and really even back then there was little point to do that much work for a nuking set. I have to say though that I enjoyed those few times I managed to put that setup to work ;)

[pim-ptarutaru]

Tbh aiming for nuking sets on NIN was kinda... I dunno, stupid? Pointless? But back then I didn't have mage jobs and started messing up with the idea of using NIN as a "light nuker", so I developed a build with atmas, gear and nukes.
Not comparable to a BLM of course, but it was pretty fun, decent damage. No big spikes except with Futae Hyoton:San, but very constant stream of damage and an entertaining variation from the usual DD melee mechanics.

Nobody trusted me when I proposed friends to let me go NIN/RDM for those fights where they wanted me on a ranged/mage jobs, but the few that allowed me to usually were positively surprised :P

But anyway, those days are over and really even back then there was little point to do that much work for a nuking set. I have to say though that I enjoyed those few times I managed to put that setup to work ;)

should try to mess around with 2 MAB katanas from magian trials (+22 MAB +22 INT for 2 katanas):D there pretty fun to play with in abyssea with nuking atmas :) + i there are quite a bit of MAB gear nin can wear now ^^ again i only play around with it :3

[Zhronne]

Yeah in my setup I was using MAB Katana and Yagentoshiro

[vixin]

im full supporter of san nukes ad sange i lean more to sange since i have throwing cap. Decent ra. acc/attack will pump sange dmg throwing 5 shurikens and relic body with augment gives 20 range attack per merit. I use Koga shurikens saw person selling 3 stacks how he got them is beyond me. lol

[wish12oz]

im full supporter of san nukes ad sange i lean more to sange since i have throwing cap. Decent ra. acc/attack will pump sange dmg throwing 5 shurikens and relic body with augment gives 20 range attack per merit. I use Koga shurikens saw person selling 3 stacks how he got them is beyond me. lol

All I'm seeing in this post is "I carry around a ranged acc/att set instead of useful sets like PDT or MDT." How anyone can consider themselves decently geared and still have room for a throwing set is beyond me.

[vixin]

All I'm seeing in this post is "I carry around a ranged acc/att set instead of useful sets like PDT or MDT." How anyone can consider themselves decently geared and still have room for a throwing set is beyond me.

all i see in this post is some one really wants a hug. lol

[Cdryik]

Tbh aiming for nuking sets on NIN was kinda... I dunno, stupid? Pointless? But back then I didn't have mage jobs and started messing up with the idea of using NIN as a "light nuker", so I developed a build with atmas, gear and nukes.
Not comparable to a BLM of course, but it was pretty fun, decent damage. No big spikes except with Futae Hyoton:San, but very constant stream of damage and an entertaining variation from the usual DD melee mechanics.

Nobody trusted me when I proposed friends to let me go NIN/RDM for those fights where they wanted me on a ranged/mage jobs, but the few that allowed me to usually were positively surprised :P

But anyway, those days are over and really even back then there was little point to do that much work for a nuking set. I have to say though that I enjoyed those few times I managed to put that setup to work ;)

nin/rdm was pretty fun in abyssea with proper atma, it made me solo a lot of NM for my AF+1 paper.

_____

Nexxus - Cerberus

[Darwena]

nin/rdm was pretty fun in abyssea with proper atma, it made me solo a lot of NM for my AF+1 paper.

_____

Nexxus - Cerberus

NIN/WAR with a couple of potion (in case) can solo paper for +1... having /RDM only slow you down. (lack of melee dmg and no Double attacks).

[Nala]

if it wern't for VW procs i'd 5/5 NTE /sigh

[Randnum]

I have questions for wish12oz that I hope do not derail the thread too much. I have seen many posts by you regarding the uselessness of throwing (and recently 'abilities other than melee') and I would like to know an actual technical thing.

Do you have a rough idea at what point of gear aimed completely at supporting melee, that these things become notably inferior?

In this thread you give a clear and understandable explanation of how Throwing is inferior when you have max delay reduction and high rates of Double and Triple Attack. I have attempted to use your numbers to determine when it is absolutely inferior when one possesses less access to certain of these things, and the numbers indicated don't seem to match up with what you said. I am not implying that you are wrong, rather, that I am, and am somehow totally lost.

When I calculate it with the DA rate from only WAR and Brutal, as well as the Haste from only a White Mage and gear cap, the damage from an intentional Sange is only slightly behind, and presuming that Sange would be used at the moment where, for whatever reason, the enemy moves out of melee range, I do not understand the actual loss in using it on a whole.

I therefore ask if your opposition to things other than melee applies only to players who would be using them when melee is an option. If not, can you please provide a general idea of how a NIN without certain Atma or under certain lowman conditions manages to severely outpace their potential throwing damage with their melee if repositioning is required.

[Darwena]

I don't have the Knowledge but 2 points why I stopped to be a Throwing Ninja:

1- Inventory space

To play ninja decently you need:
-Weapons for red trigger.
-Situation gear (Evasion, -PDT, -MDT...)
-Tools and Tools bags (nothing worst than been short on them in event, right?)
-Potions (Echo Drops, Remedy, Holy Water... they are optional but usefull)
For Sange user, add:
-Throwing gear (Ranged ACC/ATTCK)
-Shurikens (don't forget best one are only stack of 12 so it take more spaces)

And I don't even talk about the WS swap, TP build, Enmity and such.

2-Shurikens.
they are expensive, w/e you try to convince me that it cost time/gils for melee setup, it's worst for Shuriken.
-You need to build Smithing Synthesis to 110. Why 110? HQ for more Ammo. But Smithing isn't cheap to build (compare to cooking or woodworking).
-You need mats to craft them and they aren't cheap.
-Stack are the main problem also (just 12).

So build a throwing Ninja is possible, could even be a great build. But compare to a melee one, you need some devotion for it.

For less Effort (Kannagi can be made with 2 ppl (We was 3 for mine) Magian can be soloed. Even Kikoku can be soloed now.)

You can have a good Ninja and you're friend/LS will ask/ beg you to come as Ninja and even help you build the advance version of end weapons. OR you can build a shuriken Nin and play alone, cause ppl will ask you to come with another job than Ninja cause the other one (probably melee) is "better".

[Bulrogg]

We are shuriken ninja, and we don't play alone. -- dattebayo

[vixin]

We are shuriken ninja, and we don't play alone. -- dattebayo

"Together United!"

[Llana_Virren]

We are shuriken ninja, and we don't play alone. -- dattebayo

"Together United!"
Forever alone together?

[Bulrogg]

I tried sending a party invite but you can't accept cross server <.<

--at any rate, I'm looking forward to the Sange, Range attack delay and shuriken adjustments; cheers Square. :)

[Randnum]

I got my wish (pun intended). Thank you!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22707-dev1107-Sange-Update-Why/page3

The above page contains the full data calculations wish12oz uses for critiques of Throwing and the setup of Shuriken, put in a clearly better place considering.

The data shows that while one DOES benefit more relatively from throwing when you have less Double and Triple attack (and significantly so when you have less haste for any reason), the point at which throwing itself becomes inferior assuming you could be meleeing instead is easily reached even WITH shurikens that they said they won't add.

Whether or not this applies to Sange of course is a different matter since the delay issue changes drastically and you're almost literally doing 6x the damage of one throw if you are geared for that which would, theoretically, do about 3000 damage on anything weak to piercing.

My conclusion is that when you are not yet in possession of gear that pushes your effective number of attacks per melee round past 2.11 (assuming 40% haste and around 45% Dual Wield as well), Sange is probably still worth it if you have the Shuriken for it and are hitting most/all hits, in terms of spike damage.

As for throwing ITSELF, it must be accepted that wish12oz is right and that unless something changes, melee will never lose to it. This is because throwing is unaffected by haste, we have minimal ways of seriously reducing its delay, and my testing as well shows that there is a delay after the actual throw which is the true culprit here, cutting into our damage rating the most.

Until we get together and make it known that we need to throw FASTER, it will not matter.

Forget about arguing down the shuriken damage issue itself. Personally I'd somewhat stop arguing even the cost (but what is up with those stack sizes?)

What throwing needs is for us to not have a 'putting away weapon' phase to it. Until we get that, nothing else we request or complain about can make any real difference because even if we were doing equal damage to that which our katanas do, the TP gain would be abysmally lower and therefore primarily useful as a weird form of Subtle Blow.

As nice as that is, you don't carry around 12 stacks of medium damage shuriken to avoid feeding TP.

It raises the question of why ranged attacks even HAVE a 'putting away weapon' phase between attacks. People don't put away their bows between shots, and I assure you I can hold more than a few shuriken in the other hand.

Oh well. We can dream.

But yeah. People need to stop arguing with wish and start arguing that they don't need to 'put away' their shuriken after throwing.

I would like to ask the Devs to forward this question in one of two ways.

1. Is it possible to remove the secondary wait after the ranged attack completely, even if just as we go up in levels, or perhaps when we are hasted, or somehow if we perform another right after...

2. If this is not possible due to... I don't know... animation constraints or... something... is it possible to have the effective delay of shuriken outright exempted? Leave the number on it so you can calculate TP and just go 'oh if this is an ammo type throwing weapon just ignore the actual delay'.


We can't 'win' this with higher damage shuriken though. We've now been told that outright.

[Bulrogg]

Until we get together and make it known that we need to throw FASTER, it will not matter.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/attachment.php?attachmentid=2111&d=1335353471


Sept - Oct 2012: Ranged Attack Delay Adjustments

Let's let them know what we're hoping for.



What throwing needs is for us to not have a 'putting away weapon' phase to it.

Something that I thought would be a nice addition to the job would be to have a "Throwing attack" trait similar to a monk's "Kick attack" trait, so that occasionally during our melee shuriken attacks would occur and increase our DMG.

[Darwena]

We are shuriken ninja, and we don't play alone. -- dattebayo

NPC and mules doesn't count.

[vixin]

Bulroog send me invite i got a awsome ra /sange set ;] we can do new new limbus update nin status woot woot

[Bulrogg]

Good stuff. 8)

But don't even the elites like 12oz play with mules? Or at least he advocates it in part of his get new linkshell, more friends, level mule, etc. argument for when you're doing things wrong.

But what has this got to do with anything relater to ninja merits, job traits and abilities?

All digs aside, there is a presence of players that choose to use sange and throwing as needed; cheers to SE for continuing to update/adjust that aspect of the job. I look forward to autumn to see what adjustments are in sight for ranged attack delay. I hope their only targets aren't RNG and COR.

[wish12oz]

Forgot to look at this forum for a few days, lol.



Do you have a rough idea at what point of gear aimed completely at supporting melee, that these things become notably inferior?

I think I answered everything you ask in the other thread, except maybe this.
Given the horrible options available for throwing weapons, I would guess once you acquire anything above 30% total haste you're better off meleeing. If this is a question about when throwing starts to suck for leveling, that's in the mid 60's because of the bad shurikens you have to work with.


I therefore ask if your opposition to things other than melee applies only to players who would be using them when melee is an option. If not, can you please provide a general idea of how a NIN without certain Atma or under certain lowman conditions manages to severely outpace their potential throwing damage with their melee if repositioning is required.

I don't really understand this. If a mob is running around, the tank is doing it wrong, if you think there's ever a time where you shouldn't be meleeing something, that's you doing it wrong.


Whether or not this applies to Sange of course is a different matter since the delay issue changes drastically and you're almost literally doing 6x the damage of one throw if you are geared for that which would, theoretically, do about 3000 damage on anything weak to piercing.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/22707-dev1107-Sange-Update-Why?p=310016&viewfull=1#post310016
I talked about this here, just posting the link here so anyone who views this thread can see it.


My conclusion is that when you are not yet in possession of gear that pushes your effective number of attacks per melee round past 2.11 (assuming 40% haste and around 45% Dual Wield as well), Sange is probably still worth it if you have the Shuriken for it and are hitting most/all hits, in terms of spike damage.

Given the fact that available shurikens are trash, I would expect it to be a bit more in melees favor than this, if you have around 45% total delay reduction, and any sort of decent katanas, I would expect meleeing to be superior to using sange.


As for throwing ITSELF, it must be accepted that wish12oz is right and that unless something changes, melee will never lose to it. This is because throwing is unaffected by haste, we have minimal ways of seriously reducing its delay, and my testing as well shows that there is a delay after the actual throw which is the true culprit here, cutting into our damage rating the most.




From the wiki:
Ranged delay is about twice as fast as melee delay : 110 delay = 1 second
Ranged weapon delay is the only variable affecting the total delay.
Ranged attack delay is divided into 3 phases :
1. Pulling out ranged weapon, aiming, and shooting : this time span is calculated by : Weapon Delay / 110. A successful Rapid Shot activation reduces the aiming time (the time between pulling back the string and actual firing of the shot) to 0.
2. After shooting → putting back ranged weapon : This delay usually takes 1.7 second to 1.8 second. However, occasionally, it can take fluctuate from 1.6 second to 1.9 second
3. "Free" phase : at this time span, melee timer is un-paused. The minimum time this delay can have is 1.1 second

So the delay between shot of ranged weapon is :
Delay = (Weapon Delay/110)s + 1.7s~1.8s + 1.1s


So for shuriken attack delay, it will be
(192/110)+1.75+1.1=4.59seconds per ranged attack with 193 delay shurikens

There's actually 2 delays that cannot be changed and the whole thing stops the ability to melee. The 4.59 seconds listed above is time you cannot get new melee attacks.



What throwing needs is for us to not have a 'pulling out and putting away weapon' phase to it. Until we get that, nothing else we request or complain about can make any real difference

I'm so glad you get it!



But don't even the elites like 12oz play with mules? Or at least he advocates it in part of his get new linkshell, more friends, level mule, etc. argument for when you're doing things wrong

Playing with more than 1 mule is doing it wrong though, mules are mainly for extra income, I personally pay for a few accounts right now, but I wouldn't bring more than 2 characters to anything but a cruor or cleave party. But anyway, ya, leveling a WHM to be able to do more by yourself isn't a bad thing. You could even level SCH on it, get 500 enhancing skill and play rune watcher in nyzul with it and only need to find one other person with it leveled for the event.

mules = good, friends = good, LS's that do more than farm gear for the leaders = good.

[wish12oz]

All digs aside, there is a presence of players that choose to use sange and throwing as needed;

It's not needed, EVER

Reposting this so you see it
You guys that love throwing so much are aware that by claiming throwing is at all useful right now, you're only hurting yourselves right? I could care less if throwing is made good, but you obviously want it to be good. Saying its useful now and trying to convince the DEVs of that will not get you throwing updated in a way to make it good, you'll only get a slightly better outcome than you have now, and it will still be useless and you'll still be ridiculed for being throwing ninjas. Saying it's good/useful is not what you want to be doing. Just take the hit, admit you know throwing is horrible, and you only use it because you think it's fun to RP Naruto, and we can all move on and maybe you'll get the update you so desperately want.

[Nala]

been lurking both threads on the topic, bit fed up with the matter, wish12oz is correct, that is if you fail to conceded his(her?) points made on melee vs throwing the dev team will not even consider improving this "incredibly useful" trait of ninja, yeah sure range delay adjustments are on the horizon.

I wouldn't hold my breath on the dev team getting it right, furthermore base damage of shuriken, stack size and having a recipe that is both profitable to the crafter and leaves the stack price economical enough to be practical, further more tool stacks of shuriken added, and some way have them classified as tools to take advantage of NTE considering nin has no natural recycle trait, and at this time frugal cape is the only gear peice i can think of a nin can wear.

but nope not getting any of the above throwing is fine as it is, a very useful tool for nins keep on advocating you're only hurting that which you defend so vehemently.

for the record i thought it was fun back in the day using shuriken as well, but i in no way care for that side of nin at this point, as wish has said before if you're doing it right having room in your inventory for a sange/throwing set afterwards, you wont.

Post Edit: and if you really want to obsess over the whole ninja throwing thing considering ninjutsu uses tools and does not actually magic agro i always envisioned ninjutsu as being the substitute for the throw able scrolls that were available in previous FF's the scrolls you use to learn ninjutsu teach's the technique for using the tools, so you are actually throwing tools at the mob when casting ninjutsu, there enough role play for you yet?