Dual Wield yes,please

[Alukat]

Beastmaster needs a natural dual wield,because he is made for single handed weapon.

Ninja (katana), THF/DNC (dagger) already have it and the 2 jobs w/o dual wield are BST (axe) and Blu (sword) atm.

if u fight something with pet it would be possible to use the 2 pdt- axes and could sub cor to add a roll for pet att+ or acc+.

i really would love to get the full potencial of bst.

[Kensagaku]

Couple of things.

1) BLU actually does get a natural-ish Dual Wield. Spell-set trait, etc.

2) Being made for single-handed weapons what...? Shields stopped existing? Should WHM get Dual Wield as well for its club skill? After all, why Whinja when you can instead go /WAR and still swing both clubs for more damage!

Sorry about that second one, slightly snarky from reading General threads, not mad at you. D:

Anyway, that being said, the job doesn't need dual-wield naturally. /NIN and /DNC are both amazing subjobs for the BST that is right up along with his pet, giving him buffs for safety (Utsusemi) or giving him an opportunity to add to the DoT as well as heal himself (Sambas, Waltzes) while maintaining two axes.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I wouldn't mind dual wield as a natural bst job trait

I don't think it would over power the job too much...

makes about as much sense as giving blu or thf dualwield >_>

[Kensagaku]

Well with THF it's alright because double daggers are a lot more sensible than using just one. xD

Double axes, you can see using one with a shield, or just an axe. Daggers with a shield just looks silly because of the whole reach bit.

BLU gets it because it's an eclectic job, able to use a wide variety of job traits based on the monster spells set (See: Zanshin, Gilfinder, Counter, etc).

[Alukat]

hmm WHM natural dual for DDing, SE's idea for whm was a heal job and not a DD job though

Edit: what bst would use a shield, if he can use 2 axes? snarl wtf anyway >.>
Edit2: if i am rdm/nin and i melee then i would use sword with pdt- and genbu's shield , <3 the shield blocks ^^

[Kensagaku]

Yet they still made plenty of DD gear for WHM, i.e. Mauls in general, Sea Robber's/Seawolf, Reverand Mail... they even have their own individual relic and empyreal clubs made just for DDing.

Don't forget there's beneficial shields not only for the blocking but for the boosts on it (i.e. regen on Bloom Buckler, STR+ on Tatami as well as the killer effects boost, etc). Not advocating a shield build here, merely providing an argument. Personally I go /DNC or /NIN almost every time I'm on BST, so I'm usually dual wielding anyway.

[Alukat]

and i would like to sub cor or brd for an additional buff in pt situations w/o loosing the dual wield benefits.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Well with THF it's alright because double daggers are a lot more sensible than using just one. xD

Double axes, you can see using one with a shield, or just an axe. Daggers with a shield just looks silly because of the whole reach bit.

BLU gets it because it's an eclectic job, able to use a wide variety of job traits based on the monster spells set (See: Zanshin, Gilfinder, Counter, etc).

Thief should never have got it, I understand NIN and DNC afterall they were always depicted with two weapons, and any good DNC subs NIN anyway, but Thief was just dumb.

As for BLU, they get almost all job traits, it's how they work it makes sense they get it, I just hope they never get a higher tier than what you get as /nin.

[Alukat]

Thief should never have got it, I understand NIN and DNC afterall they were always depicted with two weapons, and any good DNC subs NIN anyway, but Thief was just dumb.

As for BLU, they get almost all job traits, it's how they work it makes sense they get it, I just hope they never get a higher tier than what you get as /nin.

so what's the difference between THF,NIN,DNC that makes nin & dnc deserve it and thf doesn't?
is it because u play nin and dnc and u don't play/like thf?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

so what's the difference between THF,NIN,DNC that makes nin & dnc deserve it and thf doesn't?
is it because u play nin and dnc and u don't play/like thf?

It's Ninja's job trait, was from more or less day one, whereas Treasure hunter is Thief's. Dancer deserved it on the basis that they have from day one of the job being introduced been depicted with dual daggers, whereas THF never was.

I play as neither one of the three, but would you like any other job to get Treasure Hunter, I think not. Every job should have their own traits.

[Alukat]

idm if other jobs get the TH1 trait :p

[Xilk]

Wow, please no. BST does not need native dual wield. the idea sounds pretty ridiculous to me. we really don't need it. It really doesn't make sense at all. If you want more dual wield so badly, go play nin.

I would rather see bst get some native skill w/ archery.

[Visari]

I would have to agree that bst does not need a native dual wield. /nin and /dnc afford folks plenty of opportunity to dual wield. I personally sub whm in most cases unless i need to hit that -100% pdt. I have to agree with Xilk on the archery. I always found it strange that it is not native to bst and have wondered about that since I began playing.

[Alukat]

why do u want archery? O.o
/nin or /dnc , remember not everyone is playing solo all time >.>

[Gotterdammerung]

Archery would fit so well with beast. Both in playstyle and fluff. Most of the time against big bosses i am just sitting back watching my pet fight and waiting for something to happen. Would be awesome to plink away with arrows insted of being a wallflower.

[Karbuncle]

It's Ninja's job trait, was from more or less day one, whereas Treasure hunter is Thief's. Dancer deserved it on the basis that they have from day one of the job being introduced been depicted with dual daggers, whereas THF never was.

I play as neither one of the three, but would you like any other job to get Treasure Hunter, I think not. Every job should have their own traits.

DNC has a Playstyle derived around utilizing Small/Large amounts of TP to perform various buffs, Self Cures, and in itself is one of the most, if not THE most, unique job in the game. Also, all the DNC NPC's in campaign Use h2h, including the big-one, Who uses WS up to Asuran Fists. Something DNC doesn't get. and None of them outside of the leader use Dances. by your logic DNCs don't deserve to use Dances, and should get Asuran fists.

I'm real sorry if i come off as rude but your reason for THF not deserving Dual Wield while ignoring that DNC has more utility than THF does already, while saying DNC Deserves Dual wield cause its shown as such in Cutscenes is just Illogical to me.

In my Opinion, if SE has decided to add Dual Wield to the game from Day 1, Who do you think would have gotten it?

MNK? nope
WAR? Unlikely, A+ Great Axe
WHM? nope
BLM? nope
RDM? NEWP.
THF? I think so.

It just happens that Dual wield wasn't concocted or Introduced until RoTZ, where it was slapped on NIN. To be honest we can't just say THF never deserved Dual wield, Frankly the "old" Dev team was terrible to a fault. They left multiple long-term problems unanswered, Used the term "PS2 Limitations" like it was the new "Cake is a lie" and had almost 0 contact or understanding of the playerbase. If we had our Current Dev-team and their Freedom back then like we do today, I bet THF would have gotten Dual wield at some point.

Just like it did now (even though its like level 83?).

Now, Of course we'll never get Dual Wield on THF below 83, They insulted us with Dual Wield 1/2(Probably 3) and they'll likely never change it. But it doesn't change the fact it Should have gotten it from day 1 :|, NINs uniqueness is the Elemental Ninjutsu and Utsusemi(which revolutionized Tanking), it didn't need to hog Dual wield too :|

I apologize if I've offended or insulted you, I'm just a hard-core THF who really am upset THF has never gotten Dual wield natively at low levels, When it just seems like they logically should have. Especially after DNC was given Dual wield. Its insulting to us as a job. instead we're stuck with Level 83Dual wield1, and Dual Wield II some time between 83~90. (and likely Dual wield III by 99). When we should have gotten Dual wield on the Same Levels/Traits and DNC in the very least.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

DNC has a Playstyle derived around utilizing Small/Large amounts of TP to perform various buffs, Self Cures, and in itself is one of the most, if not THE most, unique job in the game. Also, all the DNC NPC's in campaign Use h2h, including the big-one, Who uses WS up to Asuran Fists. Something DNC doesn't get. and None of them outside of the leader use Dances. by your logic DNCs don't deserve to use Dances, and should get Asuran fists.

I'm real sorry if i come off as rude but your reason for THF not deserving Dual Wield while ignoring that DNC has more utility than THF does already, while saying DNC Deserves Dual wield cause its shown as such in Cutscenes is just Illogical to me.

In my Opinion, if SE has decided to add Dual Wield to the game from Day 1, Who do you think would have gotten it?

MNK? nope
WAR? Unlikely, A+ Great Axe
WHM? nope
BLM? nope
RDM? NEWP.
THF? I think so.

It just happens that Dual wield wasn't concocted or Introduced until RoTZ, where it was slapped on NIN. To be honest we can't just say THF never deserved Dual wield, Frankly the "old" Dev team was terrible to a fault. They left multiple long-term problems unanswered, Used the term "PS2 Limitations" like it was the new "Cake is a lie" and had almost 0 contact or understanding of the playerbase. If we had our Current Dev-team and their Freedom back then like we do today, I bet THF would have gotten Dual wield at some point.

Just like it did now (even though its like level 83?).

Now, Of course we'll never get Dual Wield on THF below 83, They insulted us with Dual Wield 1/2(Probably 3) and they'll likely never change it. But it doesn't change the fact it Should have gotten it from day 1 :|, NINs uniqueness is the Elemental Ninjutsu and Utsusemi(which revolutionized Tanking), it didn't need to hog Dual wield too :|

I apologize if I've offended or insulted you, I'm just a hard-core THF who really am upset THF has never gotten Dual wield natively at low levels, When it just seems like they logically should have. Especially after DNC was given Dual wield. Its insulting to us as a job. instead we're stuck with Level 83Dual wield1, and Dual Wield II some time between 83~90. (and likely Dual wield III by 99). When we should have gotten Dual wield on the Same Levels/Traits and DNC in the very least.

Hardly offended me, we differ on opinions of who should get dual wield. Weaponskills on NM's, NPC's and so on mean very little as doing the Maat fight with RDM puts you against Asurian Fists a move RDM themselves don't even get a chance of getting.

My point on DNC and being depicted as dual wielding and thus at least deserving some levels of the trait, is that even on the announcement of the job coming to the game they depicted them Dual Wielding, something whether "you'd think THF would get it or not" they never once had.

THF Was given dual wield in the end along with the new TH as a way to simply try to remove the "Hit the mob once then disengage" method many linkshells and so forth had of thief and their DD capabilities, the same restrictions would have applied to DNC if they didn't require TP to actually be useful.

[Karbuncle]

Hardly offended me, we differ on opinions of who should get dual wield. Weaponskills on NM's, NPC's and so on mean very little as doing the Maat fight with RDM puts you against Asurian Fists a move RDM themselves don't even get a chance of getting.

My point on DNC and being depicted as dual wielding and thus at least deserving some levels of the trait, is that even on the announcement of the job coming to the game they depicted them Dual Wielding, something whether "you'd think THF would get it or not" they never once had.

THF Was given dual wield in the end along with the new TH as a way to simply try to remove the "Hit the mob once then disengage" method many linkshells and so forth had of thief and their DD capabilities, the same restrictions would have applied to DNC if they didn't require TP to actually be useful.

I tried looking up the THF AF Quest, and other things to see if any of them were dual wielding. Even Nanaa_Mihgo in the BCNM.

Couldn't find SS/Video of THF AF, but Nanaa is Single Wielding. Damnit~ but still, Even if some DNCs are shown Dual Wielding, in Campaign they all use H2H. So its not entirely sound.

Before DNC I'd be on your side. "/NIN is fine for Dual wield". But the second DNC got Dual Wield IV, My opinion Change. If they were handing out Dual Wield THF shoulda got it too :|

I mean, They do now, Dual Wield II, Probably DWIII, but still :(

[Alukat]

Wow, please no. BST does not need native dual wield. the idea sounds pretty ridiculous to me. we really don't need it. It really doesn't make sense at all. If you want more dual wield so badly, go play nin.

I would rather see bst get some native skill w/ archery.

well give BST a DW I and if u need/want DW III do it like now with sub NIN or DNC, i would really like the additional options it would add to advanced gameplay.

Edit:
pt example:
BST/COR pet att+ buffs axes: add effect: eva down*2 (for proc rate)
BST/COR pet acc+ buffs axes: add effect: def down*2 (for proc rate)
PUP/DNC (healing duty and pet acc+ increase, if it works on cor sub)
BST/COR att+ buff or whatever is needed axes: pet att+*2 (as example)
BST/WHM hasting or BST/BRD for march or whatever, it will benefit the complete pt
BST/NIN tanking pdt- axe*2

pt example 2:
SAM
THF
WAR
DRK
RDM
BST/COR (att+ as example) or BST/BRD (march as example)

at bst/brd with DW I u would lose 15% delay reduction, but overall the pt would get 4% haste to 5 ppl.
so the BST/BRD would have 10% from DW and 4% from haste. and the thf,sam,drk,war would recieve an additional 4% haste, so the overall dmg output of this pt should be higher as BST/NIN with DW III.
DW I is neccessary to make this battle tactics work.and u won't lose the increase 2nd axe stats would offer.

that's why at least DW I for bST yes,please. ^^

[Kensagaku]

And as a result you're trying to merge jobs. No. If we need those buffs, we can add a COR to get them at full strength along with another roll rather than getting a gimped roll like /COR provides. Same deal with /BRD; a lesser tier won't help when instead we could get a full BRD, get double Marches and boom, more overall DoT. The argument there is kinda invalid.

Also you're looking at some really, really specialized builds with that first part that I doubt you'd end up seeing in a party situation. Possible? Oh sure, it is. It'd take some dedication, but it's possible. Probable? Not at all. If anything you're going to get people who look at you, shake their head, and wonder where the traditional party is.

Not really a good justification for dual-wield for BST.

[Flunklesnarkin]

1 axe good.. 2 axe better

would be nice to sub something other than nin or dnc

[Alukat]

and even as bst/whm for rr oder whatever u could wield 2 pdt- axes

[Areola]

The majority if bst i see these days duel-weld. It seems to be the norm. The beauty if bst is that people can play the job in the way they feel comfortable with. some like to sit back and watch /whm and some like to brawl. I'm a brawler :)

I would love to have duel-weld on bst. for as long as I've played bst i have always /nin or /dnc(after the update). For some reason it feels wrong to me to only have one axe equipped. duel-weld IV or V would be a bit overkill but i would happily take it. I think scene axe delays are already so high I don't think it would hurt.

Before you say duel-weld on bst would be op or bst doesn't deserve or need it i'd like to ask. how much would this change the job itself? I'd like to see some more opinions about that. I'd like to know what other ppl think about bst with duel-weld III and /war(berserk double attack ect). or /whm(haste and other buffs)? maybe even other jobs that I'm not thinking about right now. how this would effect group and solo play? Or would it not change anything?

[Laciante]

While I can agree with 1 handers having some Dual Wield natively, I somehow think BST getting Fencer means no DW

[Alukat]

While I can agree with 1 handers having some Dual Wield natively, I somehow think BST getting Fencer means no DW

i always asked myself why SE gave fencer to bst.

[Mishta]

The majority if bst i see these days duel-weld. It seems to be the norm. The beauty if bst is that people can play the job in the way they feel comfortable with. some like to sit back and watch /whm and some like to brawl. I'm a brawler :)

I would love to have duel-weld on bst. for as long as I've played bst i have always /nin or /dnc(after the update). For some reason it feels wrong to me to only have one axe equipped. duel-weld IV or V would be a bit overkill but i would happily take it. I think scene axe delays are already so high I don't think it would hurt.

Before you say duel-weld on bst would be op or bst doesn't deserve or need it i'd like to ask. how much would this change the job itself? I'd like to see some more opinions about that. I'd like to know what other ppl think about bst with duel-weld III and /war(berserk double attack ect). or /whm(haste and other buffs)? maybe even other jobs that I'm not thinking about right now. how this would effect group and solo play? Or would it not change anything?

I have to agree with the brawler mentality. With /dnc sub and snarl any bst worth their weight in salt can destroy any mob that doesnt spam aoes. i personally like farsha Richard+2 setup but sometimes both -10 pdt axe are needed.

[deces]

I'm all for this, if nothing else I'd be fine with an item that fills the earring or ring slot that grants a "Dual Weild" effect to it, I belive options are good

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm all for this, if nothing else I'd be fine with an item that fills the earring or ring slot that grants a "Dual Weild" effect to it, I belive options are good

This would, and should be the only way a job like bst or such should gain the Dual Wield job trait.

[Mirage]

Edit

Sorry guys, thought this was the thf forum. Nevermind.

God damn it, why can't subforums be shown when you search for new posts?

[Gotterdammerung]

Honest mistake.

On topic, I am against this. If your going to give us dual wield just because it would be useful. Then you might as well give us MP and a line of cures. Its not our job ability. It shouldnt be our job ability. It doesnt make sense.

[Flunklesnarkin]

A piece of equipment that granted duel-wield 1 would be pretty nice

Duel-Wield 1 is hardly game breaking

[Gotterdammerung]

u say this but you would be wrong. Dual wield gives the freedom of access to any and all subs while still maintaining Capped Reward %+; Capped pet Pdt in abysea; or any other combination of pet bonuses from adding an offhand axe. Giving them access to better cures or a buttload of red WS's or any other possible advantage u can think of that comes from not being tied down to /nin or /dnc.

Whereas a sub job with a natural dual wield rate would be better overall for partying, Exp parties is a small tiny portion of an average bsts playtime. The majority of times dual wield (even dual wield one) would add so much utility to beastmaster that it could only be called "broke".

And just to drive it home. Dual wield isnt even a beastmaster sounding trait. It just doesnt fit in with our job description.

[Flunklesnarkin]

u say this but you would be wrong. Dual wield gives the freedom of access to any and all subs while still maintaining Capped Reward %+; Capped pet Pdt in abysea; or any other combination of pet bonuses from adding an offhand axe. Giving them access to better cures or a buttload of red WS's or any other possible advantage u can think of that comes from not being tied down to /nin or /dnc.

Whereas a sub job with a natural dual wield rate would be better overall for partying, Exp parties is a small tiny portion of an average bsts playtime. The majority of times dual wield (even dual wield one) would add so much utility to beastmaster that it could only be called "broke".

And just to drive it home. Dual wield isnt even a beastmaster sounding trait. It just doesnt fit in with our job description.

Thats why i said a piece of equipment that granted duel wield 1 would make sense instead of an actual job trait bst specific. Maybe even an all jobs piece of equipment.

None of what you said would be game breaking though...

[Gotterdammerung]

dual wield 1 from gear or from a natural trait would do the same thing.

And if you cant see how it would be game breaking then you have absolutely 0 imagination.

Im not going to sit here and list out the large amount of new tricks that would be available with every subjob at beasts disposal.

[Flunklesnarkin]

dual wield 1 from gear or from a natural trait would do the same thing.

And if you cant see how it would be game breaking then you have absolutely 0 imagination.

Im not going to sit here and list out the large amount of new tricks that would be available with every subjob at beasts disposal.

point out one instance where dual-wield 1 from a piece of equipment would be game breaking

[Karbuncle]

Rather you like it or not he's right. We can't just dish out Dual Wield to every single 1-handed DD. It doesn't fit the job, It barely fits DNC or THF.

You have to make a choice, magic of /WHM or /SCH, or extra PDT Axe or w/e for /NIN.

I'm a 90BST myself, And i think this idea is simply silly, You can't want something just cause "its easier" or w/e the excuse is. by that logic we should just give all the WARs, DRGs, and 2handed DD Store TP V Job Traits, and Hasso/Seigan/Third Eye without subbing SAM.

Etc etc.

Now, That being said, a Ring or something that "Grants" Dual wield (Not even Dual Wield 1, I'm talking just being able to equip weapons, 0 Delay reduction), Would not be too bad. However, For the sake of Balance, Make it called "Double Wield" a separate Job Trait, Where it offers no bonus to Attack speed, and Dual Wield Gear does not help it.

If you truly want Dual wield just to be able to use dual axes for PDT on BST, Then something like the above would be a good suggestion. its realistic, and balanced.

[Gotterdammerung]

Gotterdammerung... "And just to drive it home. Dual wield isnt even a beastmaster sounding trait. It just doesnt fit in with our job description." spoken like a true galika with low mnd and int, I got news for you, this topic is FOR dual weild.. nobody here cares to hear your old school protectionst ideas, kinda like an A and B conversation so C your way out of it, If you have such a problem with bst/DW why dont you start your own tread opposed to it. I hope this drives it home for you like I did your mum kick rocks :D


#1 Its a suggestion forums. The suggestion gets made. People discuss like/dislike. Se responds based on legitimate need and community response.

#2 Galka's have high mind.

#3 My mom only sleeps with people who actually know how to use the "reply with quote" button.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Rather you like it or not he's right. We can't just dish out Dual Wield to every single 1-handed DD. It doesn't fit the job, It barely fits DNC or THF.

You have to make a choice, magic of /WHM or /SCH, or extra PDT Axe or w/e for /NIN.

I'm a 90BST myself, And i think this idea is simply silly, You can't want something just cause "its easier" or w/e the excuse is. by that logic we should just give all the WARs, DRGs, and 2handed DD Store TP V Job Traits, and Hasso/Seigan/Third Eye without subbing SAM.

Etc etc.

Now, That being said, a Ring or something that "Grants" Dual wield (Not even Dual Wield 1, I'm talking just being able to equip weapons, 0 Delay reduction), Would not be too bad. However, For the sake of Balance, Make it called "Double Wield" a separate Job Trait, Where it offers no bonus to Attack speed, and Dual Wield Gear does not help it.

If you truly want Dual wield just to be able to use dual axes for PDT on BST, Then something like the above would be a good suggestion. its realistic, and balanced.

That sounds like a pretty good suggestion ..

an item that grants "double wield"

which is pretty much dual wield without any delay reduction or even adds a delay penalty to keep things balanced

[Xilk]

I don't think any change to dual wield should be made. even if its an item and no delay reduction.

[Alukat]

#1 Its a suggestion forums. The suggestion gets made. People discuss like/dislike. Se responds based on legitimate need and community response.

#2 Galka's have high mind.

#3 My mom only sleeps with people who actually know how to use the "reply with quote" button.

i doubt point 2 :x

and to point 1, you said u wouldn't want it. but u saying it again and again and again when anyone says that they would like it.......
one time would be enough.....

[Areola]

There is no way Se would give duel-weld to bst. But i still love the thought of it :). Hey just for the sake of conversation what if it was a merit job trait and you could only use axes with it?

We need a name for it. I vote for "Two axe holding job trait".... wait no i suck at this :(

[Glamdring]

SE, just give every job in the game Dual Wield 5 so people will shut up about this! While we're at it they all need Reraise III, A+ evasion and permanent refresh/regen for at least 10/tic so they never have to rest...

seriously, there is no conceivable reason to have this native. if you don't want to /nin or /dnc then get a tatami shield, the thing will save your life several times over when you solo.

[Flunklesnarkin]

SE, just give every job in the game Dual Wield 5 so people will shut up about this! While we're at it they all need Reraise III, A+ evasion and permanent refresh/regen for at least 10/tic so they never have to rest...

seriously, there is no conceivable reason to have this native. if you don't want to /nin or /dnc then get a tatami shield, the thing will save your life several times over when you solo.

I think reraise 3 might be a bit much for everyjob.. why not just reraise 2 ;o

[Xilk]

i doubt point 2 :x

and to point 1, you said u wouldn't want it. but u saying it again and again and again when anyone says that they would like it.......
one time would be enough.....

If you doubt point 2, then its because you are too lazy to look anything up. It also implies discussing w/ you is pointless, as fact and data are not important to any conclusions. Elvaan have top spot for mind. Galka and Hume are tied for 2nd. Mithra and taru are lower.

when someone wants a trait like dual wield on a job like bst... it just screams that they really want to play another job instead. It has NOTHING to do w/ being a beastmaster. It would be like randomly giving smn or whm the beast killer trait. Or, lets give samurai cure 2 natively at level 67.

If you are so married to a dual wield support job, then having it natively to bst would not make a difference in how you play anyway.

Thf, Dnc, and blu all used /nin almost exclusively. It was the ONLY way for thf and dnc most the time to have any dd output. It made some sense giving it to dnc or thf. The way blu job traits work, its feasible for blu to get it as well.

It makes absolutely no sense to give it to bst.

[Areola]

What makes it have nothing to do with beatsmaster? Does it not fit what you think bst play style should be? Does it not look normal to see a bst with two axes? Would it be to powerful? Does your family own a shield manufacturing company and duel-weal is cutting into your inheritance? Its just bst, what could possibly happen that's so unnerving?

I guess i just don't understand why people so deeply opposed to this idea, even though it will never happen.

[guinness]

Isn't this like saying they should give BST the teleport spells and mp native. I mean why can't I just have teleport all around while I'm /<insert sub> whenever I want.

[Xilk]

What makes it have nothing to do with beatsmaster? Does it not fit what you think bst play style should be? Does it not look normal to see a bst with two axes? Would it be to powerful? Does your family own a shield manufacturing company and duel-weal is cutting into your inheritance? Its just bst, what could possibly happen that's so unnerving?

I guess i just don't understand why people so deeply opposed to this idea, even though it will never happen.

proving a negative is a logical fallacy. If you feel that strongly about it, please suggest what about beastmaster implies, suggests or in any way relates to dual wield.

thf, dnc, and blu have their reasons (thf less than any others). Nin, it is blatantly obvious. Any other job has no connection at all. Unless you think dual wield should be available natively for ALL jobs. I feel it should not happen because it feels forced and contrived, and there are already ample ways to get dual wield on a bst if you like. The whole concept of support jobs is to add variety and contrasts.

[Gotterdammerung]

to point 1, you said u wouldn't want it. but u saying it again and again and again when anyone says that they would like it.......
one time would be enough.....


I was responding to the conversation. I wasn't just repetitively saying "i don't want it. i don't want it. i don't want it."

And i resent you implying such things *pffft*.

And really i don't need to say much else, Xilk is doing a fine job of explaining.

[Areola]

There is no way to imply what bst is. its always seemed to be general knowledge that bst allows the player to decide how they want to play it(Just look at the bst only gear with MP on it). There is no reason for bst to have duel-weld, but i don't see any reason for bst not to have it.

Idk maybe i just don't see duel-weld as something special, or like its something a job should hold dear because its what makes that job unique(i never have). All it is to me is holding two weapons. To be competently honest if bst got duel-weld native i would still sub dancer for the most part. It just fits my play style.

For the record i don't think bst needs duel-weld i just think it would be cool to have.

[Xilk]

There is no way to imply what bst is. its always seemed to be general knowledge that bst allows the player to decide how they want to play it(Just look at the bst only gear with MP on it). There is no reason for bst to have duel-weld, but i don't see any reason for bst not to have it.

Idk maybe i just don't see duel-weld as something special, or like its something a job should hold dear because its what makes that job unique(i never have). All it is to me is holding two weapons. To be competently honest if bst got duel-weld native i would still sub dancer for the most part. It just fits my play style.

For the record i don't think bst needs duel-weld i just think it would be cool to have.

BST is a warrior who puts as much value and energy into beasts and creatures as he does into one's one fighting strength and skill. That does not lead to wielding weapons with both hands. Ninja, dancer and theif are all very dextrous and have use of developing such skill. it is natural. bluemage just steals all abilities and traits from others.

If the jobs were what you want them to be, we would have a system like in ff10 or ff12 where you can just level until you have everything. FF11 is not like this. Support jobs give us alot of flexibility, but jobs are roles are defined.

[Flunklesnarkin]

BST is a warrior who puts as much value and energy into beasts and creatures as he does into one's one fighting strength and skill. That does not lead to wielding weapons with both hands. Ninja, dancer and theif are all very dextrous and have use of developing such skill. it is natural. bluemage just steals all abilities and traits from others.

If the jobs were what you want them to be, we would have a system like in ff10 or ff12 where you can just level until you have everything. FF11 is not like this. Support jobs give us alot of flexibility, but jobs are roles are defined.

That's your opinion.. and you're wrong

[Areola]

In ff3 all the jobs could duel-weld, and FF10 is my favorite FF game :). I'm sorry that was way off topic.

[Xilk]

That's your opinion.. and you're wrong

Now you wanna have an elementary school argument?


"NO! YOU'RE WRONG!"
"NO I'M NOT, YOU"RE WRONG!!"
"NO I'M NOT, YOU"RE WRONG!!"
"NO I'M NOT, YOU"RE WRONG!!"
"NO I'M NOT, YOU"RE WRONG!!"

if you disagree... "put up or shut up".
if you want credibility, propose a counter opinion. See how believable it is.

[Alukat]

proving a negative is a logical fallacy. If you feel that strongly about it, please suggest what about beastmaster implies, suggests or in any way relates to dual wield.

thf, dnc, and blu have their reasons (thf less than any others). Nin, it is blatantly obvious. Any other job has no connection at all. Unless you think dual wield should be available natively for ALL jobs. I feel it should not happen because it feels forced and contrived, and there are already ample ways to get dual wield on a bst if you like. The whole concept of support jobs is to add variety and contrasts.

now explain me why dnc and blu have their reasons?
dnc single handed weapon
blu single handed weapon
nin single handed weapon
thf single handed weapon
pld (supposed to be tank , sword + shield obviously)
whm main healer
blm main nuker
rdm support
and bst (single handed too and front line job)?
Edit: snarl makes shield unneccessary in most situations anyway.

or wait pld undead tank because of undead killer, bst tank for animal mobs, samurai tank for demons?
bst is still 110 skill levels behind pld.......

we don't talk about DW 3-5 here just a simple DW I, u won't need to use it if u don't want.
but what in general hurts u with getting a simple DW I?

[Kensagaku]

What in general hurts you about not getting Dual Wield? I feel it's unnecessary as well. Why do we need DW, even DW1, when all you just want is two axes while playing whatever sub you want? Each job has its unique niche; BST's main role (regardless of what people see nowadays) is the use of pets (via jugs or charm) in order to deal damage and fight enemies. Our role isn't to be dextrously wielding two weapons.

-NIN gets away with it because Dual Wield has been a NIN trait since like FFV.
-BLU gets it because of their ability to have a bit of everything from their setting of monster spells.
-DNC and THF are more dextrous, giving them the ability to easily wield two weapons; this is a stretched argument, and honestly I feel that since most of them still sub NIN anyway, it was somewhat pointless except for the fact that DNC has a higher tier of DW.

The only reason people want DW is so that they can still do their two-axes thing while playing a different sub. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to sacrifice something to get something else. That's why RDM (to give an example) has to choose between Divine Seal (double cure potency helps a lot!) and natural -nas from /WHM, Stratagems including AoE versions of their spells and JA-allowed -nas from /SCH, or Elemental Seal and Stun and Sleepga which they could all benefit from /BLM. You have to make choices; you can't have everything just on the argument that "others have it, why don't we?"

[Alukat]

but SE stated that they want ppl to try other sub job combinations, sadly can't find that post atm, but with all the trial axes it is neccessary for bst to have DW I. if it hasn't it ppl will always stay a /dnc & /nin for the benefits of 2 axes.
/nin is pretty useless beside DW I

and I WANT TO TRY other combinations. now why do u always have to buggering my gameplay style ,because of you are of those main stream /dnc or /nin?

Ninja edit: when i was doing trial i just needed /nin for DW, never casted utsusemi once.
that is a waste of potency in that job
Edit2: /dnc yeah it is cool if u need to waste tp for steps, when u could use them for ws
/whm u have cure and u still get the potency out of 2 axes and u won't have to waste tp for steps & waltzes

[Untamedheart]

Sub cor and sub brd are really terrible and shouldn't really be used ever for bst.

With cor sub, you are looking at getting 1 roll at half potency only as there is a penalty to cor rolls when buffing higher level targets. A subbed cor treats your roll as coming from a level 45 corsair.

With brd sub, you are looking at 3.5% haste gained from advancing march, perhaps a little more as that is from a 37 sub. Even at 45 sub, I don't think it will come anywhere near 5% you can get from haste samba.

Overall if you want to buff the party, a 5% haste samba would outdo either of those subs assuming there isn't another source of samba within the PT.

What I really wish is that they would unnerf samba. Does anyone remember when samba used to affect pets when they first released Wings of the Goddess? I never really understood why they nerfed it. It wasn't really that broken and I hope they reconsider.

[Alukat]

well, i used /brd and proc'd yellow >.>
sadly my pet had to eat lots of dmg because i couldn't wield 2 axes ><

[Untamedheart]

well, i used /brd and proc'd yellow >.>
sadly my pet had to eat lots of dmg because i couldn't wield 2 axes ><

You could have subbed nin and pretty much still had the same chance at a yellow proc?

[Alukat]

not in a pt with blu/nin blm/rdm whm/sch

[Untamedheart]

All I can say is, asking for a job trait for a situation as niche as this is unnecessary. If you sub brd for an extra chance to proc yellow, there is a price to pay for that and fair is fair. I will stop arguing at this point.

[Alukat]

holy shit, i just don't want it for proc, i want to discover more possible options this will give.seems i have to stay a main stream player /sigh

edit: i want finally see only 1 good argument that bst shouldn't get it.
all u do is your personal experience and because u are so into /dnc & /nin , that's why u are so stuck in it ><

[Kensagaku]

but SE stated that they want ppl to try other sub job combinations, sadly can't find that post atm, but with all the trial axes it is neccessary for bst to have DW I. if it hasn't it ppl will always stay a /dnc & /nin for the benefits of 2 axes.
/nin is pretty useless beside DW I

and I WANT TO TRY other combinations. now why do u always have to buggering my gameplay style ,because of you are of those main stream /dnc or /nin?

Ninja edit: when i was doing trial i just needed /nin for DW, never casted utsusemi once.
that is a waste of potency in that job
Edit2: /dnc yeah it is cool if u need to waste tp for steps, when u could use them for ws
/whm u have cure and u still get the potency out of 2 axes and u won't have to waste tp for steps & waltzes


holy shit, i just don't want it for proc, i want to discover more possible options this will give.seems i have to stay a main stream player /sigh

edit: i want finally see only 1 good argument that bst shouldn't get it.
all u do is your personal experience and because u are so into /dnc & /nin , that's why u are so stuck in it ><

Bolded the above section that I wanted to address first. First off, it is never necessary to have two axes. Yes, it is the most efficient, and the most useful. But it is not "necessary." All you're asking for is an easy mode. You want to see "one good argument" yet you seem to have completely overlooked my post. Let me quote it here:


The only reason people want DW is so that they can still do their two-axes thing while playing a different sub. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to sacrifice something to get something else. That's why RDM (to give an example) has to choose between Divine Seal (double cure potency helps a lot!) and natural -nas from /WHM, Stratagems including AoE versions of their spells and JA-allowed -nas from /SCH, or Elemental Seal and Stun and Sleepga which they could all benefit from /BLM. You have to make choices; you can't have everything just on the argument that "others have it, why don't we?"The argument is that you can't have everything. You have to make sacrifices in order to gain other things. You want to be able to dual-wield axes while being able to cure yourself? Use /DNC. Unfortunately you have to sacrifice TP. You want to heal without wasting that TP? Go /WHM or /RDM. You sacrifice dual-wield. You want survivability but don't necessarily need healing? Go /NIN for shadows to tide you over if you need to summon a new pet or kite during a Call Beast/Reward Recast timer. You sacrifice the ability to have curing spells.

The reason that this system of sacrificing some aspects to gain others exists is to create a game balance. SE is encouraging people to try different subjobs, but people are so fixated on "you must have two axes" that you're completely contradicting yourself. If you want to try more subjobs, then do it. You'll have to deal with the sacrifices of losing dual wield or some other aspect of a job that makes them unique.

Easy mode isn't the answer here. No job can have everything; all jobs have their pros and cons, their strengths and their weaknesses. And until I see a good justification as for why BST must have Dual-wield besides the "we need two axes!" line that's merely a mainstream BST thing (and weren't you complaining about being a mainstream BST?), this is the stance I'm taking.

Edit: And before you call ME a mainstream BST, I actually like going out and playing /WHM and /RDM now and again. I keep my Tatami shield around just for that reason; you don't always need Dual Wield.

Afterthought edit: Also, you actually CAN get Dual Wield outside of those subs btw. Get the Dual Wield augment on your ACP body and go to town; it grants dual wield, and it's less than DW1. There you go, two axes, play with different subs. Have fun.

[Alukat]

talking about game balance, then wtf has SE done to dnc.
its totally overpowered.
nin/dnc or dnc/nin can solo almost everything >.>
75 Evasion Bonus III
(75) Closed Position (Merit)
77 Conserve TP
77 Tactical Parry
80 Critical Attack Bonus
80 Dual Wield IV
80 Accuracy Bonus III
84 Skillchain Bonus IV
85~90 Subtle Blow IV
~90? Critical Attack Bonus II

way too many usefull job traits at 75+, dnc has everything it needs at 75+.

and with DW I i would have to sacrifice 15% DW

[Kensagaku]

Not really, the game balance is still there. A decent BST can solo things even without dual axes just as easily as DNC or NIN/DNC can. In fact, we can still solo things that they can't without too much trouble. I've seen testimonies of people soloing Dragua on BST, no brew. When a DNC or NIN/DNC can do that, show me, I'd love to learn so I can solo those cards on my NIN.

The point is that every game has its niche. BST already has a lot of power and potential to it without needing Dual Wield, enabling them to solo a lot of powerful monsters that most jobs would have trouble soloing short of brewing it. We don't need Dual Wield, we've got plenty as it is.

[Xilk]

talking about game balance, then wtf has SE done to dnc.
its totally overpowered.
nin/dnc or dnc/nin can solo almost everything >.>
75 Evasion Bonus III
(75) Closed Position (Merit)
77 Conserve TP
77 Tactical Parry
80 Critical Attack Bonus
80 Dual Wield IV
80 Accuracy Bonus III
84 Skillchain Bonus IV
85~90 Subtle Blow IV
~90? Critical Attack Bonus II

way too many usefull job traits at 75+, dnc has everything it needs at 75+.

and with DW I i would have to sacrifice 15% DW

Red herring troll. maybe you like to move this to other section of forum.

I'm surprised to see the team "mainstream bst" in this thread too. I didn't know there was such a thing. I'll need some proof cuz I really don't think it exists. :P

bst has so many soloers that we like doing things differently. "you don't like the way I play? Fine, I'll go solo it. bye-bye!"

sounds more like bst to me... I also can't help but remember a sig file in alla forums about bst not really being lolled at because of MpK :P.

[Glamdring]

please for the love of God someone drop an H-bomb on this thread

[Kensagaku]

It was dying just fine 'til you bumped it...

[Raksha]

EDIT: nvm yeah just let it die.

[Alukat]

Well with THF it's alright because double daggers are a lot more sensible than using just one. xD

Double axes, you can see using one with a shield, or just an axe. Daggers with a shield just looks silly because of the whole reach bit.

BLU gets it because it's an eclectic job, able to use a wide variety of job traits based on the monster spells set (See: Zanshin, Gilfinder, Counter, etc).

sword + shield looks good too....... but blu still got dual wield.

however, i could swear someone posted here to get KO with DW. it doesn't work.

Edit: now explain pls what dual wield has to do with the job traits which blu get because of spells?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

sword + shield looks good too....... but blu still got dual wield.

I've said it before elsewhere and I'll say it here: BLU should have gotten Dual Wield before DNC. BLU is the only job I can think of that, on its own, cannot do anything with its left hand natively. THF can equip bucklers with its native shield skill, and DNC has native hand-to-hand, but BLU has no access to either shields or two-handers.

[Alukat]

ninja has GK & h2h too.......

[Urat]

Dual wield makes way more sense for dancer than blu hands down.

Dancer is the most tp reliant job in the game, dual wield is the biggest supply of tp in the game. Blue is an mp reliant job, therefor dual wield makes less sense for it.

I don't think either jobs should have gotten dual wield though, since the dawn of ffxi dual wield was Ninja's thing, it's half the reason you went /nin

I'd hate to see ffxi turn into WoW, where every job slowly begins to become the same as others, until eventually you're either a DD job, a tanking job, or a healing job.

Ninja has dual wield because that's ninja's thing. Everyone else stop whining to ask for DW and just sub ninja. You may as well start whining that you don't get a pet to fight with you but pet jobs do, and you don't have a way to heal yourself so you want a cure spell, and you don't have a way to manage hate so you want a voke.

Job's are different in ffxi for a reason, if you don't like your job go level something else.

[Zaknafein]

Dear Alukat,

Before asking the development team to expend resources making bst have a natural DW trait you might want to actually take the afternoon, or at the most the 5days to a week to level DNC to 49. You've spoken at length in this thread about how /dnc isn't a viable option yet your's sits unopened. I'll agree that /nin for bst nowadays has lost it's usefulness since dnc received DW naturally. /nin affords DW3 being it's only truly useful advantage over /dnc. With the use of snarl you should spend very little time taking hits. Unless your trying to proc yellow with /nin your options with /dnc are far more favorable.

Curing Waltzes for yourself, party members, your npc. Healing Waltz. Debuffs to enemies Eva, Def, Magic Eva. Haste Samba for yourself, and your party. Spectral Jig(while the duration is atrocious) allows for gil free snk/invisi. Violent flourish for stuns. All of these are incredibly useful for both solo, and party situations.

Basically what I'm asking is at least take the time to try out all viable options for a job you play before asking the dev team to spend time adding things to a job. I would like to think that a player with a relic like yourself takes the time, and goes the extra mile to leave no stone unturned in their testing of playstyles. If you'd like to see Bst/Dnc in action, and what it's capable of drop me a /tell in game sometime.

[Alukat]

i know what bst/dnc is capable of, i always duo with one >.>
dnc was the worst thing SE could ever do to FFxi stun/cure/debuffs who needs rdms whms and blms anymore? aside of proc.
i think /dnc makes bst way to overpowered that's why i don't level it. i like challenges.
i need approx 10-15 seconds to get 100+tp so with this fast tp build do u think something could kill me?
well and no stone unturned in playstyle, i would really love to try new ways as bst and other subs, but i either had to sacrifice my 100tp-bonus or occ. 2-4 attack axe. this is why other subs aside from nin/dnc/whm aren't used. that's why i want a natural dual wield for bst.

[Dragoy]

Even if some DNCs are shown Dual Wielding, in Campaign they all use H2H. So its not entirely sound.
NPCs behaving Red Magey in Campaign also tend to use two swords. ^^;

But anyhoo, I wouldn't really mind if each and every job could pick up two single-handed weapons at once. I mean, the characters DO have two hands and so on... Obviously there would be different kind of draw-backs depending of the job, and many a tweaks would be likely needed to not tip things off-balance.

It's not completely un-heard of in older Final Fantasy titles, though, it would be mostly via an accessory of some kind that it would become possible.


Genji Gloves + Offering, anyone?
~Dozes imagining attacking 8 times per round, all the time, any job, and no not with a kraken club...~

[Urat]

If anything maybe I'd be fine with all jobs being able to dual wield, BUT without the dual wield trait itself you wouldn't get the substantial -delay. In other words all you'd get from DWing is extra stats from the offhand, you'd swing twice per round but twice as slow.

[Alukat]

If anything maybe I'd be fine with all jobs being able to dual wield, BUT without the dual wield trait itself you wouldn't get the substantial -delay. In other words all you'd get from DWing is extra stats from the offhand, you'd swing twice per round but twice as slow.

indeed. DW I would be a 15% loss in delay reduction, but i would be able to test new subs as bst, and i think its worth :)

[Areola]

Oh god who dug this topic back up lol. The hate in this thread was almost on par with the War and Sam threads :p

Also dual wield FTW :) i think V would do nicely lol