To the devs: Why won't you nerf Geomancer?

[Shiyo]

Honestly curious. This job allows you to completely ignore mechanics with vex + attunement, it allows you to strip bosses of almost all their resistances or defenses to the point where you can just TP or mage burn them. Without a geo, you cannot land debuffs at all even as a fully geared RDM on 95% of the games content, but with a geo you can.

The entire games balance and NM design seems to be dictated and balanced around this one jobs existence.

Why do we >>ALWAYS<< need a geo in nearly any situation? Why is 1 slot auto-filled with geo to the point where party sizes might as well be 5(or 4, honestly double geo is almost mandatory due to vex/attunement) and bosses rebalanced around geo not even existing?

So I ask: Why isn't this job nerfed?

[Vae]

Simple answer: because they screwed up and there's no going back.

Every single mob in the game is based around having GEO. It's easier to maintain the new status quo, than it is to adjust every single mob in the game.

It's the same reason they won't undo the colossal mistake that i119 is.

[PristineChicken]

Simple answer: because they screwed up and there's no going back.

Every single mob in the game is based around having GEO. It's easier to maintain the new status quo, than it is to adjust every single mob in the game.

It's the same reason they won't undo the colossal mistake that i119 is.

It's just like BLU. They can't turn back now. The time to fix it was a very, very long time ago.

[Vae]

No, that's still going to happen.

Everything square does is a reaction that is years too late.

Having played as long as I have, I am literally in awe that BLU hasn't been changed yet.

Let's not make this into "that" thread though.

[Elexia]

Neither Blue Mage nor Geomancer needs to be nerfed. Beastmaster for example needed to be nerfed because for quite a time people wanted "BST only setups" and content were "requiring" BSTs in order for people to do pickup wise due to how broken it was. Did it deserve a nerf? Not really, it could have just been adjusted, but the playerbase, as always, went wild with basically playing the system and that's the end result.

Until content is BLU and GEO setups only, they don't need to be nerfed. BLU mage is the epitome of a glass cannon, it's strong but it also takes a GOOD player to actually play it to potential. Take a fresh BLU into current ilvl content, see how overpowered it is. Same with geomancer, take a Geomancer that isn't mastered into vs one that is into new content.

The "overpowered" nature of jobs are relative, the situation with BST for example was due to the nature of the job itself that literally anyone can do. Not everyone can just job change to the "OP jobs" and become the second coming,, nerfing would be pretty silly. Geomancer also would be absolutely useless if their debuffs could be resisted because it damn near negates the majority of their job mechanics.

Also, no monster in the game is "built around geomancer" unless you truly believe they went back and readjusted every single monster and content from 1999 (development) to now when they introduced geomancer.

[PristineChicken]

Content already IS BLU and GEO only!

Are you kidding?!

[PristineChicken]

Seriously, just sitting in town in an off-peak time I can see, in the last hour, that EVERY SINGLE GROUP that has shouted has wanted either a GEO, a BLU, or both.

[Rwolf]

Beastmaster didn't need to be nerfed at all. The only reason that meta existed in overabundance was because the game was overkill on monster evasion and AoE damage.

At the time BST received the update, not much had changed in player composition. It wasn't until Sinister Reign that it started picking up speed as the meta. Pets had an easier time with acc than general players at that point, with less risk from damage or strain on healers.

Several updates to gear, jobs, evasion and AoE nerfs happened. The nerf might have stopped BST dominance in the meta but it wasn't necessary at all. It just satiated the rage players had for being forced out of their jobs and instead of placing the blame in the mechanics of fights, BST absorbed all the blame.

Geomancer doesn't need to be nerfed either. The whole point of the job is potent undispellable buffs/debuffs. Support in general except GEO should be buffed. GEO became necessary the same way BST did, to overcome mechanics.

For instance in balance, if GEO is able to vex/attunement shield the party as one job. At best 2 jobs should match or exceed that potency together at the same rate. Like some mix of Addle/Silence/Paralyze/Barspells/Carol. Or Dia/Angon/etc.

Flooring monster stats doesn't matter, given content is designed around it already and I doubt they are going to change it now.

Support sans GEO having magic accuracy to land debuffs and potency issues is definitely a problem. It's better to bring other jobs to equal or sometimes better footing depending on the situation.

[PristineChicken]

Beastmaster didn't need to be nerfed at all. The only reason that meta existed in overabundance was because the game was overkill on monster evasion and AoE damage.

At the time BST received the update, not much had changed in player composition. It wasn't until Sinister Reign that it started picking up speed as the meta. Pets had an easier time with acc than general players at that point, with less risk from damage or strain on healers.

Several updates to gear, jobs, evasion and AoE nerfs happened. The nerf might have stopped BST dominance in the meta but it wasn't necessary at all. It just satiated the rage players had for being forced out of their jobs and instead of placing the blame in the mechanics of fights, BST absorbed all the blame.

Geomancer doesn't need to be nerfed either. The whole point of the job is potent undispellable buffs/debuffs. Support in general except GEO should be buffed. GEO became necessary the same way BST did, to overcome mechanics.

For instance in balance, if GEO is able to vex/attunement shield the party as one job. At best 2 jobs should match or exceed that potency together at the same rate. Like some mix of Addle/Silence/Paralyze/Barspells/Carol. Or Dia/Angon/etc.

Flooring monster stats doesn't matter, given content is designed around it already and I doubt they are going to change it now.

Support sans GEO having magic accuracy to land debuffs and potency issues is definitely a problem. It's better to bring other jobs to equal or sometimes better footing depending on the situation.

It is far, far, far easier to adjust ONE job downward than multiple other jobs upward.

I mean, what are you going to do for COR? Three rolls? Let them single-target a roll like BRD can a song? Force an XI with a new JA? Or maybe just increase the potency of all their rolls by changing Death Penalty to have an idris-like effect?

[Rwolf]

It actually isn't easier because the problem isn't Geomancer. The problem is other jobs require Geomancer to fill their roles more reliably. Like RDMs trying to land their debuffs without needing languor.

[PristineChicken]

It actually isn't easier because the problem isn't Geomancer. The problem is other jobs require Geomancer to fill their roles more reliably. Like RDMs trying to land their debuffs without needing languor.

I'm aware. They've worked themselves into a corner. However, the fact remains it's easier to bring Geomancer into line with everyone else than everyone else into line with Geomancer.

[Shiyo]

Seriously, just sitting in town in an off-peak time I can see, in the last hour, that EVERY SINGLE GROUP that has shouted has wanted either a GEO, a BLU, or both.

Every group I've seen shout:
GEO BLU PLD WHM
That's 4/6 job slots filled only leaving 2 slots open.

PLD can be replaced by a RUNE on most fights, and ninja on some so paladin isn't really a problem.

WHM can be replaced by SCH on most fights and RDM on some. Healing doesn't kill mobs, and some mobs don't need the obscene healing a WHM has. WHM isn't a problem.

BLU can be replaced by numerous other DD's very easily, it has a hybrid niche but it can be replaced.

What a geo brings, cannot be replaced by any job, in any situation. It is the best support in the game and never worse than another support or easily replaced by one. Some enemies mechanics cannot even be done without a geo(Like landing blind on maju to disable his mechanic). No other job buffs damage(physical or magical) anywhere near as much of a geo, and the other two support jobs add basically almost zero damage for mages. Bard provides zero, cor provides some. Geo also allows you to completely tank and bypass enemies mechanics with vex + attunement while also zerging them to death with capped pdif and extreme nuke damage. You would never be able to hit these nuke or physical damage numbers with any other support.

Geo is a huge, huge glaring problem.


It actually isn't easier because the problem isn't Geomancer. The problem is other jobs require Geomancer to fill their roles more reliably. Like RDMs trying to land their debuffs without needing languor.

You have a case for RDM, however other support jobs CANNOT be buffed or we'll be killing every enemy in the game with 0 effort.

RDM 100% needs to be able to land debuffs on any enemy in the game with zero support, it's completely unacceptable that RDM cannot do it's ONE job it's supposed to be the master of without a geo, because RDM has zero tools to make it capable of doing it's job.

[PristineChicken]

You have a case for RDM, however other support jobs CANNOT be buffed or we'll be killing every enemy in the game with 0 effort.

RDM 100% needs to be able to land debuffs on any enemy in the game with zero support, it's completely unacceptable that RDM cannot do it's ONE job it's supposed to be the master of without a geo, because RDM has zero tools to make it capable of doing it's job.

I second that. RDM is in a really bad place.

[detlef]

WHM isn't a problem.I agree that WHM isn't a problem, but it should also be noted that nobody would settle for a non-WHM healer for anything.

[Shiyo]

I agree that WHM isn't a problem, but it should also be noted that nobody would settle for a non-WHM healer for anything.

Yeah but that's kind of a "playing it safe using inefficient comps" problems. There's tons of bosses that having a WHM on is a waste, because the faster you kill a mob the less healing you need.

[Nyarlko]

They don't need to nerf ANY jobs. We should be calling for buffs to everyone else instead. The only way a nerf to GEO would be reasonable would be if the devs broke down and raised potential ilvl since that would decrease required stats for high level content. It would be far better for everyone if BRD/RDM were buffed to comparable performance levels as a similar gear level GEO. (Even if that meant that there had to be new caps added on debuff effects or removing the ability to stack debuffs with bubbles.) The demand for GEO over other supports has more to do with how pre-SoA jobs and the baseline combat system were never updated to handle ilvl content than the job being overpowered. GEO was designed with the new world order in mind, so it naturally handles it better than older jobs. It would make more sense to update everyone else to the new baseline than to nerf the currently functional job.

[Rwolf]

Nerfing GEO changes nothing except once again satiating feelings that the player base uses particular setups that exclude whatever job you want to play as. It'll just shift to whatever works best next and someone else will say nerf X job now. All parties are full of <insert job> now.

Vengeance doesn't do anything but foster a negative community and players who are upset their job of choice is largely ineffective.

Buffing other support's accuracy and potency wouldn't make monsters magically easier. Because Geomancer can already floor most of the stats they affect and max it out alone. Maybe that was a mistake but just like item levels, its here now and the game is designed around it.

You can lower overall party damage and survivability, but it wouldn't change anything but make the game more difficult on its own.

[Shiyo]

They don't need to nerf ANY jobs. We should be calling for buffs to everyone else instead
No, power creep is bad.
I do not want the game to become a joke because people can't handle their job(s) being (rightfully) nerfed.

Also, it's much easier to adjust ONE JOB than it is to adjust MANY.

[PristineChicken]

Look, I don't want GEO nerfed. I would love to see BRD and RDM and COR buffed to match it. That's just far, far, far harder than nerfing GEO. Given the small amount of dev time allotted to the game, we need to be realistic here.

[Nyarlko]

No, power creep is bad.
I do not want the game to become a joke because people can't handle their job(s) being (rightfully) nerfed.

Also, it's much easier to adjust ONE JOB than it is to adjust MANY.

I understand that power creep is bad. That would be why I suggested including new caps on debuff potency and/or ability to stack effects with bubbles.

[Shiyo]

I understand that power creep is bad. That would be why I suggested including new caps on debuff potency and/or ability to stack effects with bubbles.

Or you nerf geo because it's 1/100th as much work and we have a tiny dev team.

[Rwolf]

Nerfing GEO doesn't solve the problem I'm seeing the concern for, which is GEO is taking over all parties. Making the game harder overall isn't a solution. The current hard content is revolved around still being challenging with a GEO.

There can be no power creep because GEO already floors stats single handedly. The only way it would happen is if other support were buffed to do something they dont already have. Which that would have to be looked at carefully.

[Shiyo]

Nerfing GEO doesn't solve the problem I'm seeing the concern for, which is GEO is taking over all parties. Making the game harder overall isn't a solution. The current hard content is revolved around still being challenging with a GEO.

I've talked to many, many people who have been clearing Aeonic NM's for months now.
They say none of them require a geo, only master trials do.

Geo just makes the game a complete joke, it literally breaks the game in half. It needs to not exist.

[Rwolf]

You're only further cementing that nothing is wrong with GEO. If you feel GEO isn't overpowered, then why mention vex/attunement or that it needs to be adjusted at all?

[Rwolf]

You edited so I'll reply to the edit. What is GEO doing specifically that is hurting other jobs and what should be done about it?

[Shiyo]

You edited so I'll reply to the edit. What is GEO doing specifically that is hurting other jobs and what should be done about it?

It's in the OP

This job allows you to completely ignore mechanics with vex + attunement, it allows you to strip bosses of almost all their resistances or defenses to the point where you can just TP or mage burn them. Without a geo, you cannot land debuffs at all even as a fully geared RDM on 95% of the games content, but with a geo you can.
What can be done? Nerfing it to the ground, ESPECIALLY idris. Talking a 75% nerf.

[Nyarlko]

Look, I don't want GEO nerfed. I would love to see BRD and RDM and COR buffed to match it. That's just far, far, far harder than nerfing GEO. Given the small amount of dev time allotted to the game, we need to be realistic here.

RDM needs to be able to at least land their signature debuffs w/o requiring outside support (while in appropriate gear.) BRD needs a major overhaul. Like.. a full teardown/rebuild from the frame up -_-;;

Nerfing GEO would result in nothing but increased difficulty across the board and additional limitations in potentially successful group composition.

Their longtime stance of using gear to compensate for poorly functioning job mechanics is something that should change, even if it takes considerable dev time/effort to accomplish. That is what dev time is for after all.. Development. Their recent statement on BRD getting access to AllSongs+1 on future equipment indicates they have no intention of changing this stance anytime soon sadly. T_T

[Rwolf]

So your issue is the game is not hard enough with Geomancers? Because I guarantee the people who are doing Aeonic clears without GEO are using other things to do the same. I agree GEO isn't necessary to party setup.

I respect and share your feelings about RDM but to include it as a reason to nerf GEO into the ground is just vengeance.

The game is balanced around GEO now. Nerfing it by 75% will just mean SE will need to adjust all post GEO content because the level of difficulty with GEO is exactly what they want.

It being too easy or not what players find fun in is subjective. Overpowered though is different than boring and mundane.

[Shiyo]

The game is balanced around GEO now. Nerfing it by 75% will just mean SE will need to adjust all post GEO content because the level of difficulty with GEO is exactly what they want.

I don't think the game is.
Have they actually said this?

Content not master trials is beatable without a geo.

[Nyarlko]

GEO is basically the crutch propping all of us non-BIS-only players in ilvl content. As a person who has to walk with a cane in my daily life, I can say from experience that it is far more desirable to deal with the cane than to limp around more painfully at half of my already slow speed. ^^;; Do we enjoy kicking the crutch out from someone with a broken leg?

Wouldn't it be better to wait to consider nerfing GEO until after we have something else to compensate for the loss of support? Buff BRD and RDM before considering GEO nerfs. After they've been updated to modern standards, then it wouldn't be nearly as damaging to the majority if GEO was slightly nerfed since the power gap would already be narrowed compared to currently.

The "proper" way to go about these sort of things should usually be: Buff first, then nerf if you accidentally overbuff.

[PristineChicken]

What can be done, though? Make BRD songs scale higher? Be % based (with a minimum?) RDM needs massively increased MACC on its enfeebles. But if it can reliably land enfeebles, given how powerful they are, that could trivialize content.

[Rwolf]

I have confidence they didn't just add content without considering any impact on the game's difficulty being what they wanted.

To ask the question back to you. Have they said they didn't consider GEO making the game too easy? If Aeonics are a line to be drawn, a lot of the player base still can't complete aeonics with a GEO. Let alone a lot of content.

I'm not understanding how..


I've talked to many, many people who have been clearing Aeonic NM's for months now.
They say none of them require a geo, only master trials do.
Equates to remove this job from the game or make it impossible to play. I assure you 75% will make it unplayable.

It feels like vengeance, not game balance.

[Rwolf]

What can be done, though? Make BRD songs scale higher? Be % based (with a minimum?) RDM needs massively increased MACC on its enfeebles. But if it can reliably land enfeebles, given how powerful they are, that could trivialize content.

The solutions are many. The only issue I do agree with Geomancer is it has a monopoly on certain debuffs and buffs. Due to potency differences, ability to land alternatives, etc.

A job can be exceptionally strong in one aspect but not if no one else is capable of even reaching the same effect. That I agree on.

[Jin_Uzuki]

It actually isn't easier because the problem isn't Geomancer. The problem is other jobs require Geomancer to fill their roles more reliably. Like RDMs trying to land their debuffs without needing languor.

RDM issue go beyond that. RDM issues are that this game battle system doesn't work like in 2005 and "resource management" is no longer a thing.

GEO is undoubtedly broken, but it's "just" a support job. BLU and SCH for example are far "worse" as far balance goes.

The best solution is too buff Bard, but at the end of the day, you would still need a support job. It's been a constant in all of FFXI life, the only difference now is that it's GEO instead of BRD.

[Rwolf]

RDM issue go beyond that. RDM issues are that this game battle system doesn't work like in 2005 and "resource management" is no longer a thing.

GEO is undoubtedly broken, but it's "just" a support job. BLU and SCH for example are far "worse" as far balance goes.

I agree it goes beyond that. Prefacing what I said about RDM with "like" was to state an example only, not sum everything in a few words. You'll have to explain how Geomancer is broken.

[Shiyo]

RDM issue go beyond that. RDM issues are that this game battle system doesn't work like in 2005 and "resource management" is no longer a thing.

GEO is undoubtedly broken, but it's "just" a support job. BLU and SCH for example are far "worse" as far balance goes.

The best solution is too buff Bard, but at the end of the day, you would still need a support job. It's been a constant in all of FFXI life, the only difference now is that it's GEO instead of BRD.
Haste 2 being given out to blu makes RDM less useful.
Indi-haste existing makes RDM less useful.
BLM doing 50% more nuke damage than every other mage makes RDM less useful.
BLU getting everything and being good at everything makes RDM less useful.

[Nyarlko]

I don't think the game is.
Have they actually said this?

Content not master trials is beatable without a geo.

Unless they've snuck in an unnoticed/unannounced major adjustment to mob evasion, a lv150 mob w/o evasion boosts would require 1843 effective acc to cap. Is it possible for us to reach this point w/o GEO right now? Probably so, since the highest end players seem to be pulling it off. Is it probable that a non-BIS group is going to be able to come close to that number w/o a GEO? Not really. ><;;


What can be done, though? Make BRD songs scale higher? Be % based (with a minimum?) RDM needs massively increased MACC on its enfeebles. But if it can reliably land enfeebles, given how powerful they are, that could trivialize content.

Currently in-game, a merited 99BRD who's naked except for a NQ Cornette will be skillcapped on nearly every song. (I think there are 2-3 that benefit above that point.) Songs give static values that don't scale beyond your already capped skill, and those values pale in direct comparison to the percentage based buffs from GEO. Skill caps need to be raised to 900 combined, and possibly converted to percentage basis in order to compete. My main concern is that any changes need to be made directly to the job itself and not glossed over with equipment.

RDM debuffs would not be likely to trivialize much content even if they were totally unresistable. Debuffs like Paralyze and Slow don't have nearly the same impact that they did in the old days due to the increased rate of mob TPmove usage and reduction in white swing damage per fight. I'm no expert on RDM and I'm honestly not sure what RDM would need in addition to drastically increased debuff accuracy in order to share equal footing when it comes to the support spot.. Maybe add a mirrored WSD+% to Inundation? Change Temper to target party member? Those sound like fun at least. XD

The real issue is not that "GEO is Over Powered." The real issue is "Non-GEO supports are Under Powered." Address the issues that non-GEO support jobs have before worrying about nerfing GEO.

[PristineChicken]

Let's not forget DNC's support capabilities are woefully lacking. Front-line support has become "DD with sick moves".

[Shiyo]

Let's not forget DNC's support capabilities are woefully lacking. Front-line support has become "DD with sick moves".
Dancer is in an awful spot support wise since 75 cap was removed, from one of the most fun jobs to one of the least fun for me, personally.

[Shiyo]

I'm no expert on RDM and I'm honestly not sure what RDM would need in addition to drastically increased debuff accuracy in order to share equal footing when it comes to the support spot..
The problem with RDM is none of it's debuffs stop you from dying to bosses.
It needs some type of "Enemy special actions do less damage" flat unresistable debuff based on mnd/enhancing skill that's like 5-25% DR from enemy special moves.

Dia3 needs to be massively buffed(25% def down) and should stack with bio3(which should be -25% attk).

It's nuking needs to be buffed 20-30%.

It needs a new set of melee gear.

Slow 2 needs to reduce mob TP gain.

It being bad at AOE healing would be ok if it made mobs damage MUCH weaker and managable because then it could main heal a lot of stuff again like at 75 cap.

[Rwolf]

I miss the complexity of DNC and its support as well. Not sure how they would balance it. RDM and DNC were some of the first jobs I took to 99.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Haste 2 being given out to blu makes RDM less useful.
Indi-haste existing makes RDM less useful.
BLM doing 50% more nuke damage than every other mage makes RDM less useful.
BLU getting everything and being good at everything makes RDM less useful.

Indi haste doesn't even cap haste lulz. And GEO is a support job, OF COURSE it should have haste. Not to mention, is RDM even competing with GEO spot? GEO is competing with BRD and COR.

RDM problem is that the game is no longer the same it was. People got RDM for refresh, convert, haste and enfeebling. Nowadays MP are no longer an issue, convert is no longer an issue and by the time I started casting Paralyze the mob is already over 50% of HP if the party is good. If there is a job that made RDM outdated is probably SCH, not GEO.

I'm not sure how you could even fix the job. Give it self SC too?

[Shiyo]

I miss the complexity of DNC and its support as well. Not sure how they would balance it. RDM and DNC were some of the first jobs I took to 99.

I main healed merit parties on dancer and main healed my group in dynamis, was a blast to play.
It's basically a "thief with dances you don't want to press because they have 5 hour ja lock and you only use them at 1.4k tp then immediately ws after so you don't get JA locked"

[Shiyo]

Indi haste doesn't even cap haste lulz. And GEO is a support job, OF COURSE it should have haste. Not to mention, is RDM even competing with GEO spot? GEO is competing with BRD and COR.

RDM problem is that the game is no longer the same it was. People got RDM for refresh, convert, haste and enfeebling. Nowadays MP are no longer an issue, convert is no longer an issue and by the time I started casting Paralyze the mob is already over 50% of HP if. If there is a job that made RDM outdated is probably SCH, not GEO.

It does with haste1 which you'll always have.

[Nyarlko]

... Not to mention, is RDM even competing with GEO spot? GEO is competing with BRD and COR. ...

A large portion of the complaint is that RDM should be competing for that support spot, but that it is rather non-competitive atm. RDM was once the Jack-of-all-Trades that could compete for various party roles depending on gear loadout. Sure, a WHM might've been able to crank out stronger cures, but a dedicated RDM could come awful close. Sure, a BLM could provide bigger nukes, but a skilled RDM could get off 2x MB for every 1x that a BLM could. RDM's buffs and debuffs were important and had significant impact on success in a lot of fights. For any situation where 100.0% maximum theoretical efficiency/output was not required, RDM made a solid choice for several roles.

Nowadays, not so much. >_<;;


It does with haste1 which you'll always have.

:? I am always surprised when anyone bothers to cast Haste on someone else because of how lazy many players have gotten. It's far from an "always" situation. lol orz

[Rwolf]

I think Shiyo meant GEOs typical support jobs are RDM and WHM. So if Haste is required you can Indi/Geo-Haste + Haste spell from sub to hit magical haste cap. Bubbles stack independently of everything else.

[Jin_Uzuki]

A large portion of the complaint is that RDM should be competing for that support spot

Yeah, but GEO spot??? No one in the days thought "I'm getting a BRD or RDM?" They were completely different kind of supports.

[Nyarlko]

I think Shiyo meant GEOs typical support jobs are RDM and WHM. So if Haste is required you can Indi/Geo-Haste + Haste spell from sub to hit magical haste cap. Bubbles stack independently of everything else.

Becomes a moot point tho if your party's GEO refuses to cast it on anyone, which is the most common situation that I run into.


Yeah, but GEO spot??? No one in the days thought "I'm getting a BRD or RDM?" They were completely different kind of supports.

And yet, the bread n' butter party setup has not changed much from day1. Tank + healer + support + 3x DD (of some sort) has always been the go-to setup because it makes sense. There are exceptions/variations of course depending on what your target/goal is, but that is our foundation. The fact that that IS still the baseline means that we are all essentially competing for the same support spot. And the fact that most groups looking for the 2x support setup would prefer to take GEO+GEO over GEO+RDM or GEO+BRD should be seen as an indication that BRD/RDM both need buffs.

[Diavolo]

Becomes a moot point tho if your party's GEO refuses to cast it on anyone, which is the most common situation that I run into.

That's not a problem with the game or the job, it's a problem with the players. If you're asking them to cast Haste and they refuse simply tell them you'll look for someone else that can tackle that oh-so-demanding task.

[OmnysValefor]

Edits were made to reply to the second post, and go into detail. Sorry if it's a little disorganized, feeling pretty awful today.


Yeah but that's kind of a "playing it safe using inefficient comps" problems. There's tons of bosses that having a WHM on is a waste, because the faster you kill a mob the less healing you need.

No it isn't.

WHM has bottomless MP as long as they're decently geared, cureskin ia luxury for the bonus HP it has helps me get spells off as a tank.

Finally, once upon a time, using even Curaga 1 a few times was a tactical choice that you may regret later in the fight. Merely for healing potential, Curaga IV to V may as well be benediction.

Withought refresh support, an sch will run out of MP. Without tons of refresh support, mana can still be a problem and RDM is an absolute joke for a healer. A PLD, geared for it, could probably heal as well as an RDM. Lacks convert, has chivalry. In escha, I have no doubt of this claim. WHM also has Sacrifice (let me just cast erase 7 times.. by the point you do that, the debuffs are probably reapplied.)

WHM is amazing well designed right now. Cure potency rewards it x3 right now: Empy pants/PIP scale with cure potency. No other healer gets anything remotely as good. There have been many tough fights where I see good WHMs ending with 75-90% mp.

WHMs are also rewarded by a tank's cure potency recieved (pretty sure), a stat all over PLD's best tanking set, via augments.

In fights where casters are range and it's only the tank taking significant damage (a good tank might not be at all), SCH can be a fine healer. In setups where RDM works, a SMN/WHM is nearly as valid, lacking better barspells.

I was actually just talking to a friend yesterday about this. If they made a healing-oriented Occult Acumen, Myrkr would allow SCH to have excellent mp retention but it is still nowhere in WHM's league overall.

- - -

A light arts SCH is a terrible nuker so regaining MP via that is not good. Occult Accumen doesn't make nukes free, but it helps. Gearing for it may change this but you'll lose other desirable stats in the process. And who wants to hear the tank died because the healer was casting a t3 nuke.

A healing SCH trying to nuke, just hypothetically, is like a tank trying to build TP. It's fun in easier content but otherwise it's not worth it at all.


I don't think the game is.
Have they actually said this?

Content not master trials is beatable without a geo.

So then beat it, without a geo. I've seen people say this but I don't know anyone do it. Further, I can't see know anyone doing for the first lap.


Edit: Sacrifice can also remove things that erase cannot and I don't mean certain instances of zombie. Last month's ambuscade, when the slow aura went up, you could also get a mean attack-down. Erase generally targeted slow, which was immediately reapplied. However, sacrifice allowed you to get the debuffs off.

Another little idea I had for RDM. WHM has sacrifice, give RDM Gift, a spell that copies buffs to the player. Full duration would be convenient.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Becomes a moot point tho if your party's GEO refuses to cast it on anyone, which is the most common situation that I run into.



And yet, the bread n' butter party setup has not changed much from day1. Tank + healer + support + 3x DD (of some sort) has always been the go-to setup because it makes sense. There are exceptions/variations of course depending on what your target/goal is, but that is our foundation. The fact that that IS still the baseline means that we are all essentially competing for the same support spot. And the fact that most groups looking for the 2x support setup would prefer to take GEO+GEO over GEO+RDM or GEO+BRD should be seen as an indication that BRD/RDM both need buffs.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you are trying to say. RDM will never ever compete with BRD, GEO and COR unless it's severely redesigned from scratch. I never heard of anyone getting a RDM instead of a COR and BRD. It's literally not an option from most people.


It's a completely different kind of support that these days is completely useless because MP are no longer an issue, everyone has haste and convert, etc. GEO could be nerfed to the ground and people would still not get a RDM. They would still get a GEO or a BRD or a COR.


The Job doesn't need a buff as much it needs to be redesigned or at least made more similar to SCH.

[OmnysValefor]

"Redesigned similar to SCH" Do you mean that SCH needs redesigned or RDM needs stances?

I also think it's never too late to just give the job staff skill and Myrkr.

Here's a quick idea. Make Dia III directly increase the target's damage taken by X%. Make Bio III directly decrease all form's of the boss's Damage dealt.

Edit: One of SCH's problems is that in group content, it's often detrimental to nuke and sometimes to Helix. You have to weigh whether the SCH's nukes will trigger/escalate a resist wall if you have enough BLMs.

It's why there's so many SCH's that only know how to skillchain. And tbh, not even tat. Most of these SCHs need to be told what spells to cast to make the skillchain.

[Shiyo]

So you disagreed with me, then admitted other healers can work.

O...k.
WHM is overpowered at being a healer but healing doesn't kill bosses.

You can kill a lot of bosses with a trust healers(which don't scale the mob up) or a more offensive healer that makes the mob die faster.

On the harder content you'll generally always want a WHM, though.

Also, why do I need to prove something? People can kill aeonic NM's without geo and do it all the time.

Nearly anytime you're bringing a mage comp over a melee comp is inefficient and bad(not always, most of the time). The majority of this player base defaults to mage comps for a lot of stuff still.

You literally posted just to try to attack me, that isn't cool. I suggest you stop, omnys.

Anyways, why isn't geo being nerfed?

[OmnysValefor]

The point was to highlight the weaknesses of RDM and SCH in many settings. They can work. To a certain point on certain bosses, SCH can work.

I once helped a mnk/whm clear Neak. I can cure myself, easily, through that fight. Stona is the ponly problem. It's probably the only fight that I'd let a monk heal lol.

Yes, many jobs can work but they are severely suboptimal. It's a mistake to bring them to a lot of fights.

I don't like it but it is what it is.

I like to do fights, figure out what the problem is, and correct it. I don't like to do fights, know what the problem is, and percist through trying what I know is causing the problem.

[Diavolo]

I have to echo Jin's comments that nerfing GEO wouldn't do anything to make RDM more appealing.

RDM's strength within a party used to come largely in its ability to refresh, help heal and enfeeble while having an almost endless MP pool thanks to Convert. Absolutely all of its strengths have been marginalized and it's not the introduction of newer jobs that led us to this point, it's our constant cry for "more accessible" content. Wanted battles and Ambuscade are typically short fights with MP and HP reset to full upon entry. Escha/Reis provides a wealth of vorseals and temporary items. WHM's gear practically makes it self-sustaining, no longer needing support of any kind. MP management used to be a skill that separated the noobs from the skilled players, now no one stops to think about it for even a second. Even enfeebles were a form of MP management, servng practical functions that could sometimes make or break a fight, mitigating the damage received and a healer's/PLD's MP spent, but at a time where no one ever runs out of MP the job's strength has been almost completely erased. How do you bring that back in the current environment? The short answer is that you don't because you no longer want it.

[Jin_Uzuki]

"Redesigned similar to SCH" Do you mean that SCH needs redesigned or RDM needs stances?


I'm saying that the only way for RDM to be relevant again is that they make it similar to SCH. The only other option is to completely redesign the job. As Diavolo said, RDM "strengths" are completely trivialized by today gameplay, it's a job designed for another kind of gameplay (Much slower, methodical and based on managing MP) and no longer supported today. Remember why so many people didn't use WHM but used RDM during Level 75 merit parties? Refresh, convert and haste. Well everyone has convert and refresh gears literally fall from the sky now. MP management is no longer an issue, so you don't get a job that it's good at both roles, you get a BLM and a WHM.

Even just the ability to self sc would land the job a spot in many parties for example. And I say SCH because in a sense the job is very similar to RDM already, ability to nuke/heal, ability to recover MP and some buffs so it was my first idea. Because honestly I can't even imagine how RDM could ever become relevant again today.

[Zeargi]

It's that so many NM and Enemies that resist EVERYTHING when it comes to normal type spells, so rather than nerf GEO, it's likely better to buff the spells that others cast. There are lots of support classes that could use some work: DNC, RDM, COR, and BRD. Hell even, SMN could use a boost to some of the other wards it's got. I got turned down for a Leviathan HTB because they were saying they didn't want SMN buffs, and were demanding me to change to a GEO.

[Shiyo]

Summoner is one of the best mages and in a very, very, VERY good spot with it's supportive things.

Games community is just silly.

250 TP bonus + hastega2 + warcry + enfire(not vs leviathan) + 20-25% double attack(prob not going to want to use ifrit on levi though - so 12%+ crit from ramuh) and possibility of earthern ward on things its useful on? Yes please.

[OmnysValefor]

I'm saying that the only way for RDM to be relevant again is that they make it similar to SCH. The only other option is to completely redesign the job. As Diavolo said, RDM "strengths" are completely trivialized by today gameplay, it's a job designed for another kind of gameplay (Much slower, methodical and based on managing MP) and no longer supported today. Remember why so many people didn't use WHM but used RDM during Level 75 merit parties? Refresh, convert and haste. Well everyone has convert and refresh gears literally fall from the sky now. MP management is no longer an issue, so you don't get a job that it's good at both roles, you get a BLM and a WHM.

Even just the ability to self sc would land the job a spot in many parties for example. And I say SCH because in a sense the job is very similar to RDM already, ability to nuke/heal, ability to recover MP and some buffs so it was my first idea. Because honestly I can't even imagine how RDM could ever become relevant again today.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I do think the last thing this game needs is another mage who can self-skillchain.

I asked which you meant because I think one of the things that holds SE back from RDM adjustments is that it's not constrained by anything. It has no spell limit, it has no stratagems are Arts. If competent melee and mage, RDM/DRK would be an equipset away from changing roles midfight.

[Elexia]

As well as (Good) RDM being too powerful at one point which is why SE never touched it when every other jobs were getting buffs and the like, but that eventually lead to it falling behind.

And for a time, RDM was the only job that could solo quite a lot of alliance based fights, especially in the older days. People claimed BLM and WHM could too but I've never seen the evidence of it.


It's that so many NM and Enemies that resist EVERYTHING when it comes to normal type spells, so rather than nerf GEO, it's likely better to buff the spells that others cast. There are lots of support classes that could use some work: DNC, RDM, COR, and BRD. Hell even, SMN could use a boost to some of the other wards it's got. I got turned down for a Leviathan HTB because they were saying they didn't want SMN buffs, and were demanding me to change to a GEO.

I think I see the main problem is it's just people forgetting this is how FFXI has always been with support roles. People turn down people all the time for asinine reasons and people turn down others because they only wanted BRD/CORs for the buffs they give. That is, if you've played the game long enough to remember "change to BRD/COR" despite having other things leveled.

As said, if GEO gets resisted you negate a majority of the job's mechanics. NMs and such have always been resistant to all hell to debuffs to some degree, even more so after SE combated burn setups so that's nothing new, but some skilled (and geared) mages were able to land certain debuffs and blue mage above all had trouble with its debuffs, due to high mp cost/inefficient to cast at times since they could use certain debuffs at the time no other job could directly, you didn't see people say "change to blu" because for the longest, BLUs were shunned from end-game content unless they just dragged you along. GEO has nice buffs and debuffs and SMN has always gotten the short end since SE hasn't ever really adjusted it to a nice standing, but it's also not useless either especially if you had Fenrir and later Diabolos back in the day. People want the path of least resistance and if you've played XI long enough, you should remember BRD rotations through entire alliance to pop 4+ songs for that very reason.

Heck I don't think I've seen SMN get love outside of LS groups simply because the stigma that most SMNs are just trash. It happened with BLU, it happened with DNC, it happened with SCH it happened with PUP it happened with BST (main stigma was it kills exp) and so on, things changed dramatically over the years, now everyone wants a (good - keyword) blu, everyone wants geo because a mastered (keyword) geo is amazing, but people act as if you can just burn these jobs to 99 and be superior to everyone else without any work or effort.

As for RDM relevancy, it simply depends on the content design and gear design, because these days people are FAR, FAR more self reliant they simply don't need the RDM crutch anymore because a big part of RDM's support was haste and refresh and access to MBing, cures and debuffs, however these days with introduction of JP and content introduced with escha and so on, Geomancer simply lucks out because it was designed in the "new" XI.

That's my biggest gripe with XI post abyssea, because it change the foundation of the game far too much far too quickly. I didn't hate abyssea in terms of content, I hated the outcome of it, since we all (if actually played) remember when they introduced Legion and how people were clueless on what's happening because they grown to attached to being super humans with unlimited HP/MP/TP etc since in abyssea, support jobs were largely...useless in a way depending on atma setup, but some fights still needed the support, for example BRD's Sentinel's Scherzo being an absolute crutch...that is no longer needed these days because there's a good chance you have some kind of passive buffs, be it vorseals or temp items that gives you just as much if not more support.

So there really is little they can do to adjust other jobs to bring it "up to speed" unless they go back to making content laughable, but even like back in the Sky/Sea/Einherjar days of XI, not just anyone can be x job and make or break a content run, I'm sure we all remember terrible BRD/COR/RDM/PLD/WHM/THF etc that hindered more than helped, the same happens with the so called OP jobs like SAM/GEO/BLU.

[Jin_Uzuki]

I think SMN is fine nowadays. It's one of the few jobs that can easily MB with 99k with Ifrit and avatar BP and can do solid MB Damage. I've seen SMN destroy quite a few hard NMs. The "problem" is that you need a lot of BP damage gears to be efficient. (In comparison I'd say normal MB gears are much easier to get)

Yeah, you can't use it for EVERY setup, but this is also true for jobs like BLM. No one is bringing a BLM to a BLU/DD burn party.

[Rwolf]

SMN is in a good place if you're a highly geared mastered SMN. My only gripe is the progress from fresh 99 SMN to fully decked out is extremely top heavy on power scaling. It's not the only job facing that issue, but you do have to put in a lot of work not being as helpful to churn out 50k+ pacts, especially without a GEO.

Other support being buffed won't make the game automatically easier. Things like attack, defense, accuracy, etc can be increased on other jobs and have little to no effect when paired with a GEO.

GEOs major strength right now is if necessary, it can stack fury/frailty/dia to cap defense down. Vex/attunement/barspells to cap magic evasion, etc.

Raising the potency of spells and abilities other jobs have won't change the caps. It's already possible to cap since bubbles stack with everything.

Now if you give it something new, yeah that'll have to be considered.

[Zeargi]

Summoner is one of the best mages and in a very, very, VERY good spot with it's supportive things.

Games community is just silly.

250 TP bonus + hastega2 + warcry + enfire(not vs leviathan) + 20-25% double attack(prob not going to want to use ifrit on levi though - so 12%+ crit from ramuh) and possibility of earthern ward on things its useful on? Yes please.


The only reason I included SMN is because of some of the other wards could use adjustments to the ilvl+, but even then SMN is in better shape than RDM, BRD, and COR is. Some of the player base just want to stay with that 'Cookie Cutter' mentality.

[Shiyo]

COR is barely worse than geo as a support(but doesn't break the game like geo). COR is obscenely overpowered as a support that also can do silly damage while supporting.

Not sure how people can think COR is bad? Makes me think about how people say sch is "overpowered" when there's literally nothing overpowered about it, it just enables cheesy safe(inefficient) all mage strats. SCH doesn't make an enemy have zero physical/magical defenses or make it's AOE do 25%+ less damage to everyone.

RDM just can't do it's role and it gets zero tools to actually do it's role(enfeebler) and bard is irrelevant outside of scherzo in most situations because non-percentage buffs vs what a cor and geo can bring(percentage based buffs/debuffs).

[Jin_Uzuki]

Yeah, COR is pretty good. It's even the only support job that can actually directly boost pets! Plenty of people get COR for everything, it's generally always welcomed in all kind of parties based on my experience.

[Jakuk]

COR is barely worse than geo as a support(but doesn't break the game like geo). COR is obscenely overpowered as a support that also can do silly damage while supporting.

Not sure how people can think COR is bad? Makes me think about how people say sch is "overpowered" when there's literally nothing overpowered about it, it just enables cheesy safe(inefficient) all mage strats. SCH doesn't make an enemy have zero physical/magical defenses or make it's AOE do 25%+ less damage to everyone.

RDM just can't do it's role and it gets zero tools to actually do it's role(enfeebler) and bard is irrelevant outside of scherzo in most situations because non-percentage buffs vs what a cor and geo can bring(percentage based buffs/debuffs).

I think a lot of people say COR is bad simply because they can be dispelled, but on a whole COR buffs are crazy powerful, if anything, at most they could do with one more roll, so 3 instead of 2.

SCH compared to others is rather powerful, just look at how much it can solo, even stuff at 130+

Agree on RDM and BRD completely. That said at least you can add a RDM and do good damage up until a certain iLevel, can't do the same with BRD. BRD really has taken a MASSIVE hit.

[detlef]

COR is great, powerful buffs and pretty significant ranged physical and magical damage. That's a job done right in my opinion. RDM is good too, but not in a PT-sized group. You can always find room for a RDM but the catch is that your group has to be sized around 8-9+ players. BRD has been covered a lot in the other thread.

But yeah, again, why do we always just overlook how overpowered WHM is? I'm not even asking for a nerf, just wondering why people spend all their time crying over BLU and GEO instead. I mean, I guess I know the answer is that nobody leveled/geared RDM or SCH to heal so nobody cares that WHM's position is unchallenged. But it's interesting.

[Shiyo]

But yeah, again, why do we always just overlook how overpowered WHM is? I'm not even asking for a nerf, just wondering why people spend all their time crying over BLU and GEO instead. I mean, I guess I know the answer is that nobody leveled/geared RDM or SCH to heal so nobody cares that WHM's position is unchallenged. But it's interesting.
Can't heal a mob to death. WHM is stupid overpowered and you will NEVER, EVER play a healer as strong as WHM in another game, but at least it doesn't make the mob die, and can be replaced by a trust/sch/rdm on a bunch of stuff(especially trusts on anything below 135).

I leveled SCH to mainheal at 75 :( I mainhealed everything in the game except ground kings and toau kings.

I personally would remove the emp pants mana retsore entirely from the game.

BLM's position is unchallenged too, it literally holds a monopoly on nuking and does over 50% more nuke damage than any other nuker, it's stupid.
BLM being so much stronger than every other nuker is one of the reasons RDM is so useless.

Also, yes, RDM fits nicely into 7-9 sized groups, and I think mob scaling above 3 and 6 party limit sizes(and forcing 6 people max in content) is one of the biggest things holding this game back and screwing up balance/letting other jobs actually be useful.

[Elexia]

COR is great, powerful buffs and pretty significant ranged physical and magical damage. That's a job done right in my opinion. RDM is good too, but not in a PT-sized group. You can always find room for a RDM but the catch is that your group has to be sized around 8-9+ players. BRD has been covered a lot in the other thread.

But yeah, again, why do we always just overlook how overpowered WHM is? I'm not even asking for a nerf, just wondering why people spend all their time crying over BLU and GEO instead. I mean, I guess I know the answer is that nobody leveled/geared RDM or SCH to heal so nobody cares that WHM's position is unchallenged. But it's interesting.

People cry over BLU/GEO/SAM being OP because it's the current flavour of the month thing to complain about. No one wanted BLU end-game during early ToAU days, no one wanted SCH when it was essentially a gimped RDM until adjustments to make it stand out and actually be useful. Blu is powerful but it also is essentially a glass cannon. Geo is powerful but only mastered and with an ultimate weapon, because I can promise no one will take an ilvl117 geo vs a decked out geomancer, when if the whole "OMG GEO IS OVERPOWERED" is true, it shouldn't matter if they're ilvl109, 117 or 119 fully mastered or not, no?

WHM I think is pretty powerful but that's as it should be to be honest, the other curative mages could be powerful but when it comes to raw healing and healing support? WHM should indeed be 'overpowered.'


BLM's position is unchallenged too, it literally holds a monopoly on nuking and does over 50% more nuke damage than any other nuker, it's stupid.

Having a hard time wondering if this is sarcasm or not. For a time SCH was on par with BLM (pre ilvl days) to the point the nuke party was almost always BLMs and SCHs (and BLM Automation) but BLM should be the king of nuking, this isn't FFXIV where everyone has to be equal and boring as heck.

[Nyarlko]

BLM's position is unchallenged too, it literally holds a monopoly on nuking and does over 50% more nuke damage than any other nuker, it's stupid.
BLM being so much stronger than every other nuker is one of the reasons RDM is so useless.


That only really holds true for MBs though.. RDM/SCH/GEO can all put out respectable nuke numbers if geared to the teeth just like an awesome BLM can. BLM is really good at blowing stuff up (especially with MBs nowadays,) but that is all that it is really meant to do. "Glass cannon" and all that... tho my BLM must be made of super amazing unbreakable glass or something <,<;; Mana Wall is stupidly easy to abuse. lol


... Blu is powerful but it also is essentially a glass cannon. Geo is powerful but only mastered and with an ultimate weapon, because I can promise no one will take an ilvl117 geo vs a decked out geomancer, when if the whole "OMG GEO IS OVERPOWERED" is true, it shouldn't matter if they're ilvl109, 117 or 119 fully mastered or not, no?

BLU is FAR from being a "Glass Cannon". The complaints about OP-ness are valid in a way simply because it is capable of not only performing multiple roles, but excelling at multiple roles AND frequently requires less support than the jobs that normally fill those roles while those jobs are limited in the scope of normal operations. The one area that BLU is lacking in when compared within roles would be single target magic damage, which I find ironic for a "Mage". BLU can get at least as much defense as a PLD, attack as a DRK, and can crank out self-sc Light relatively easily, but the big kicker is that it can do alllllll of that sans support job backup. I blame BLU for >why< support/healers got lazy with casting Haste since it can usually do a better job at keeping themselves buffed than the supports/healers could do.

Your example is far from fair. :x Any job ilvl117 (or 109) will not be able to handle higher tier stuff by default due to simple baseline mechanics. If you amend your statement with "... a newer ilv119 geo vs a decked out..." then it falls flat. That would be like expecting an ls in 75cap days to bring along a lv60-70 over a lv75. Ilvl = Player level now, so it's something far from insignificant enough to ignore.

GEO really only requires magic skill, appropriate reforges and Dunna to be more than capable of justifying it's presence in the vast majority of group activities. A bunch of the JP categories provide powerful enough boosts that you will probably notice the difference if they are there or not, but not enough to exclude someone in lower tier clvl activities.

[Jin_Uzuki]

because I can promise no one will take an ilvl117 geo vs a decked out geomancer, when if the whole "OMG GEO IS OVERPOWERED" is true, it shouldn't matter if they're ilvl109, 117 or 119 fully mastered or not, no?


The only think people care when it comes to geomancy is if you have 900 skill and if are you using the right bubble or not. If you have an Idris that's a bonus. Literally most people don't even seem to know how GEO actually works or what people are actually equipping.

And I'm a career GEO so I know what I'm talking about.

[Shiyo]

Blu is powerful but it also is essentially a glass cannon.

????
Mighty guard + cocoon + barrier tusk.
Blu is the tankiest DD in the game and gives up 0 to be this tanky. It's barely less tanky than an actual tank..what?

[Diavolo]

????
Mighty guard + cocoon + barrier tusk.
Blu is the tankiest DD in the game and gives up 0 to be this tanky. It's barely less tanky than an actual tank..what?

That point starts to evaporate into thin air when you make those kind of statements. BLU can stack a great deal of defense while acting as a damage dealer, but its DD numbers fall off a cliff if you're expecting it to tank something you would usually throw a PLD or RUN at.

[Vae]

BLU isn't supposed to be "the" tank above 135~

It's a DD the has "the best" survivability. Maybe "easiest" is the key word.

[Shiyo]

That point starts to evaporate into thin air when you make those kind of statements. BLU can stack a great deal of defense while acting as a damage dealer, but its DD numbers fall off a cliff if you're expecting it to tank something you would usually throw a PLD or RUN at.

I have no idea why you just agreed with me but tried to say I'm wrong at the same time...?

BLU DD's take a lot less damage than any other DD in the game while in full DD mode. Like, 50% less damage when you compare it something like a dark knight.

[Diavolo]

I have no idea why you just agreed with me but tried to say I'm wrong at the same time...?

"Blu is the tankiest DD in the game and gives up 0 to be this tanky."

That's why. You can throw Saline Coat, Barrier Tusk, Cocoon and whatever else into your spell list, but if you're spending your time curing yourself or reapplying defensive buffs your damage is obviously going to take a hit. As a BLU it's hard not to feel like I'm always giving up something... but this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, unless the argument being made is that even if GEO was nerfed/removed completely we'd still be complaining about something else.

https://cdn1.ijr.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/obama-sly-grin.jpg

[Shiyo]

Nope.
You're the tankiest DD in the game keeping up only cocoon/mg. You could also keep up barrier tusk which makes you even more obscenely tanky, and you don't have to give up anything to set these.

[Eckamus]

This thread is getting off track and devolving into another BLU thread i see. I just want to clarify Mighty Guard etc...

Mighty Guard - Base duration 3 Minutes (only accessible with use of a 10 Minute Job Ability), so it is down for 7 minutes before it can be used again.

Cocoon - Costs 1 point (1/60 points total and 1/20 set spells total)

Barrier Tusk - Costs 3 points (3/60 points total and 1/20 set spells total)

Blue Mage has access to about 200 spells, some are locked behind Job Ability use and do not need to be set. The vast majority are not, leaving them only to be able to set 20 of those spells or use 60 points (with Job Points), whichever comes first. Blue Mage has a lot of versatility, but it does have a trade off offense vs defense when setting spells. Whether people want to accept this or not is up to them.

I'm trying to be neutral and unbiased on this. Also, I rarely play Blue Mage, I mainly am on White Mage, Bard, Paladin or Geomancer.

[Domille]

This thread is getting off track and devolving into another BLU thread i see. I just want to clarify Mighty Guard etc...

Mighty Guard - Base duration 3 Minutes (only accessible with use of a 10 Minute Job Ability), so it is down for 7 minutes before it can be used again.


Incorrect. UL is 5 minutes. and Diffusion is the 10 minute. Under diffusion you get 5 minute MG. So MG up time is 8/10 minutes

[Eckamus]

Ah, thanks for correcting me. I must have got the times mixed up. Still is down time, just not as long as I thought it was.

[Shiyo]

I would really love the devs to give some insight as to why geo is allowed to break the game in half.

[OmnysValefor]

People act like this game hasn't depended on support jobs since Bard's inception.

The difference between having a bard, or eventually cor, and not having one or three was quite often the decision between win/loss and that was back when gear haste was a token stat and mp was as precious as gold.

[Domille]

People act like this game hasn't depended on support jobs since Bard's inception.

The difference between having a bard, or eventually for, and not having one or three was quite often the decision between win/loss and that was back when gear haste was a token stat and mp was as precious as gold.

No ones forgotten, but those days are over. The game has gone so casual. The same rules don't apply anymore.

Gimmicks are the only thing that stops everyone from doing everything in game.

[Jin_Uzuki]

No ones forgotten, but those days are over. The game has gone so casual. The same rules don't apply anymore.

Gimmicks are the only thing that stops everyone from doing everything in game.

This doesn't mean anything. The game changed, but a lot of things stayed the same.

Should we also complain about the fact that we need a WHM for every advanced boss? What about Tanks? Supports are integral to FFXI battle system for advanced content. Well, stats buffing support like BRD/COR/GEO are. Only BRD is lagging behind.

You don't need a GEO to do most "casual" content. You don't even need support to begin with!

[Shiyo]

People act like this game hasn't depended on support jobs since Bard's inception.

The difference between having a bard, or eventually cor, and not having one or three was quite often the decision between win/loss and that was back when gear haste was a token stat and mp was as precious as gold.
You didn't require a bard to land debuffs.
You didn't require a bard to not die to AOE/not get perpetually aoe statused.

A bard didn't auto-cap your pdif or remove 100% of the enemies magical defenses.

[Domille]

This doesn't mean anything. The game changed, but a lot of things stayed the same.

Should we also complain about the fact that we need a WHM for every advanced boss? What about Tanks? Supports are integral to FFXI battle system for advanced content. Well, stats buffing support like BRD/COR/GEO are. Only BRD is lagging behind.

You don't need a GEO to do most "casual" content. You don't even need support to begin with!

Geo is a self full filling cycle.

You HAVE to take GEO because GEO exists. ALL mobs have extra def/att/macc/mab/hp BECAUSE GEO exists. Every mob is designed with certain numbers in mind, then they have to double those numbers for every single one, because if they don't they'll die in 5 seconds.

GEO completely ruined the balance. (not that it was great to begin with).

Even for low content if you don't take GEO you're only slowing yourself down.

[Jin_Uzuki]

This doesn't make much sense to me. If they felt GEO was too powerful in term of endgame, they would have adjusted it by the time Reisejima and Escha came out. They wouldn't have designed 50+ end game mobs so you can only do it with GEO.


Even for low content if you don't take GEO you're only slowing yourself down.
You can replace GEO here with BRD and COR and it would be the same in this case. Supports jobs always make things faster. It's the whole point of them!

I feel like a lot of frustration here come from the fact people cannot find support jobs (especially on less populated servers).

[Shiyo]

I don't think anyone has a problem dual boxing a geo and presing 2-3 buttons every few minutes.

if you honestly think a bard or cor adds ANYWHERE near the damage or survivability that a geo does....

I don't know what to say.

[Jin_Uzuki]

I don't think anyone has a problem dual boxing a geo and presing 2-3 buttons every few minutes.

lol people have been dualing support jobs since the dawn of time. You may want to try another argument.


if you honestly think a bard or cor adds ANYWHERE near the damage or survivability that a geo does....

I don't know what to say.

Sounds like GEO is doing his job as a support job. Good job GEO! Hit me up when GEO starts to solo Escha and Reisejima mobs.

[Elexia]

You didn't require a bard to land debuffs

You needed a BRD and COR to do as much damage as fast as possible in most content though because you didn't have the benefit of temporary stat boots through items or passive effects like vorseals. I'm guessing you started playing post Abyssea.


You didn't require a bard to not die to AOE/not get perpetually aoe statused

Because the content designed between 2002-2009 wasn't exactly AoE heavy, however they did indeed enjoy their AoE/conal debuffs. Sure enemies had nasty AoE moves, but uh....Utsusemi was a thing for a reason for certain jobs if they were always going to be in melee range until SE started designing NMs to ignore/completely wipe shadows. It wasn't until abyssea and after did SE move towards "everything AoE wrecks your face" but don't pretend the game didn't rely on support jobs pre-Geomancer or you must have been in some terrible linkshells lol.


A bard didn't auto-cap your pdif or remove 100% of the enemies magical defenses.

And thus the content wasn't developed with that in mind...hence the extreme difference in design pre-ilvl and post ilvl content design. Let's put it this way - If we could do 10-99k damage just like that ontop of being far more self-reliant due to ilvl gear back in the days of sky/sea/einherjar/salvage do you honestly believe things wouldn't have been designed much, much differently?


if you honestly think a bard or cor adds ANYWHERE near the damage or survivability that a geo does....

I don't know what to say.

1. COR was never designed to "add survivability", it's core design was to enhance you "based on jobs" as it's unique feature over BRD, but having both was crucial in older content, especially if you had a good COR.

2. COR/BRD are different designs from geomancer. Though even back then, if BRD and COR did the exact same things, why would you take both and either/or? So yes, every support lags behind Geomancer when comparing them simply because Geomancer, as said, was developed in the "new" XI, so a lot of older designs simply need to be brought up to speed.

The same argument can be made during any time period of XI. You could do x without y job but you'll only be hindering yourself.

As for "every monster was redesigned because of Geomancer" every future monster and NM/boss will be designed based around ilvl and geomancer, sure, but they didn't retrofit every monster and nm in the game because of it. Me taking a friend through older content didn't suddenly turn into absolute hell because SE skyrocketed the defense and HP etc of older bosses. CoP was still the same cakewalk it's always been post lvl-cap being removed and even more so with the introduction of ilvl gear and JP.

It's silly that people want to hate on Geo for essentially being a support job..then again BRDs did hate on COR when they got introduced because they could support AND do damage, but brds were still the better puller.

[Nyarlko]

The importance of GEO has more to do with how they dealt with 100+ content than the job itself. Since there doesn't seem to be any evidence contrary to a linear level-based stat increase system for mobs, (EX: acc+34 required per mob level over yours,) the differences between older support role jobs like BRD/COR/RDM become painfully obvious in direct comparison in higher level content. SE has always had the bad design habit of addressing job mechanic issues with equipment rather than actual job adjustments, so the older jobs (who have primarily static value based buffs) just ended up lagging further and further behind as player/mob stats continuously climbed while their unchanged mechanics (with occasional small boosts from equipment) provided less and less overall benefit.

GEO's bubbles that have direct comparisons/overlap with other supports are percentage based rather than static, so they naturally scale along with player power increases. Once upon a time, Madrigal's/Minuet's static values provided a sizable increase to accuracy/attack when viewed as a percentage of what players were able to attain. Player stats have skyrocketed compared to pre-ilvl days though and the percentage increase that those unchanged static values provide now are much smaller percentages which pale in comparison to what a moderately geared GEO (Dunna) can provide. Toss Idris into the mix and there's no way possible to compete. This is not a flaw with GEO, it's a flaw with the other support jobs.

The modern game is not being designed around GEO. GEO is just designed for the modern game. The older jobs aren't and are suffering for that. This is not an issue of "GEO is Over Powered", its an issue of "Non-GEO support jobs are Under Powered." The solution is not to nerf GEO, it's to buff the other supports to competitive level. If nerfs are needed after that has happened, then we ask for nerfs at that point.

Nerfing GEO with the current state of the game though would be a textbook example of "cutting off your nose to spite your face." It would provide zero benefit to anyone and hinder most groups, so what is the purpose for even asking for nerfs right now?


Because the content designed between 2002-2009 wasn't exactly AoE heavy, however they did indeed enjoy their AoE/conal debuffs. Sure enemies had nasty AoE moves, but uh....Utsusemi was a thing for a reason for certain jobs if they were always going to be in melee range until SE started designing NMs to ignore/completely wipe shadows. It wasn't until abyssea and after did SE move towards "everything AoE wrecks your face" but don't pretend the game didn't rely on support jobs pre-Geomancer or you must have been in some terrible linkshells lol.

The old content also did not normally have to account for haste capped melees. ^^;; I have the distinct impression that most players (and possibly the devs) ignore the impact that the increase in TP fed to mobs by delay capped melees with sky-high multiattack rates has had on TP move usage. Even if an old mob had some sort of super nasty AOE, it would take FIVE DDs to match the baseline TP fed by only ONE modern melee w/ 80% delay reduction. That means that they are getting fed TP at 500% of the old rate. And that means that what would have been a 10sec delay between TP moves with 3x DDs pounding away is now a 2sec delay and basically firing off back-to-back (and likely to be less than 1sec once multiattack is taken into account.) Would the majority of current gen nasty AOEs be anywhere near as annoying/dangerous if there was actually time for a WHM to clear off at least 1-2 debuffs on everyone between moves?

That was a bit of a tangent, but still leads back to why GEO is dominating the support spot in groups... When we don't have access to any other effective means of defense (in part because the older supports simply can't provide enough to matter much in the upper clvl world,) the one support job that is capable of providing anything worthwhile will of become the default/go-to option over those who can't. Which leads back to "Don't nerf GEO, BUFF other supports to match." It's fine if there are differences in what each job brings to group content, but there is a problem when the choice is not a matter of tactics but basic functionality.

[Siviard]

Ok, I'm seriously confused by all this.

First off, this is the player in question here, Kiaru of Valefor. http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kiaru

This person has THF NIN DNC RNG and SCH at Lv. 99. All of which BENEFIT from having a Geomancer in a party. Yet, this person seems to have some sort of extreme hatred towards GEO. Why is this? Did a Geomancer steal candy from you as a child? Did a Geomancer bully you in Middle School? Or maybe something more serious? A Geomancer robbed you at gunpoint? Please help me understand why you hate GEO so when the jobs you have at 99 all benefit greatly from being in a group with a GEO.

[Domille]

Ah, well, name one job that DOESNT benefit from a GEO. Even a GEO benefits from another GEO. That's the problem with GEO.

You won't find anyone even on trivial content not wanting a GEO.

Do you need a geo for ambuscade? Absolutely not. will you see one in every. single. party. Absolutely. Half of them are running double GEO.

Hell the Frog was IMMUNE to GEO and every single party still had one.

[Shiyo]

Ok, I'm seriously confused by all this.

First off, this is the player in question here, Kiaru of Valefor. http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Valefor/Kiaru

This person has THF NIN DNC RNG and SCH at Lv. 99. All of which BENEFIT from having a Geomancer in a party. Yet, this person seems to have some sort of extreme hatred towards GEO. Why is this? Did a Geomancer steal candy from you as a child? Did a Geomancer bully you in Middle School? Or maybe something more serious? A Geomancer robbed you at gunpoint? Please help me understand why you hate GEO so when the jobs you have at 99 all benefit greatly from being in a group with a GEO.

Where are the forum mods?
Literally personal attacks + petty finding an outdated profile on another site and trying to use it as an ad hominem attack that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Mods? Hello?

[Elexia]

Ah, well, name one job that DOESNT benefit from a GEO. Even a GEO benefits from another GEO. That's the problem with GEO.

Corsair's benefit from Corsairs and BRDs.

Do you see how what you said makes no sense? That isn't a "problem" - the problem here is just hating on Geomancer. It's funny how people initially said Geomancer would be worthless and no one would like them (especially because of how bad the initial wave of Geomancers were on Seeker's launch) now people are trying to get them nerfed into oblivion.


You won't find anyone even on trivial content not wanting a GEO.

You mean like how people wouldn't be caught dead without a RDM/BRD/COR back in the day..?


Hell the Frog was IMMUNE to GEO and every single party still had one.

It's still a support job.

I'll be blunt: There must be something in Valefor's water to make the hate for Geomancer this severe...or there must only be 4 Geomancers on that server and people just can't have one for their party.


Where are the forum mods?
Literally personal attacks + petty finding an outdated profile on another site and trying to use it as an ad hominem attack that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Your profile is up to date up until they ended support for LS community site. It wasn't a personal attack and it does pertain to the current discussion. You want Geomancer nerfed, however, all of the jobs you play benefits from Geomancer.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Ah, well, name one job that DOESNT benefit from a GEO.

BST burns in Reisejima!

Your message works if you replace GEO with WHM too, by the way. Or Tank, for pretty much every meaningful content. News at 11, if you want to get party fast, tank, heal and support are the jobs you want since they are pretty much "reserved" spots as far FFXI and MMORPG goes.

Supports especially, it's like people don't remember about BRDs getting message as soon they logged.

[Shiyo]

BST burns in Reisejima!
.
-defense on the mob is an astronomical help to bst pets damage on said mobs.

[Elexia]

BST burns in Reisejima!

Your message works if you replace GEO with WHM too, by the way. Or Tank, for pretty much every meaningful content. News at 11, if you want to get party fast, tank, heal and support are the jobs you want since they are pretty much "reserve" spots as far FFXI and MMORPG goes.

Supports especially, it's like people don't remember about BRDs getting message as soon they logged.

It's not that don't remember, they simply didn't play the game pre-abyssea or purposefully ignoring it to try to have an "argument" against a support class being a support class.

[Jin_Uzuki]

-defense on the mob is an astronomical help to bst pets damage on said mobs.

GEO needs to hit all the mobs, it's risky as hell compared to cor, 4bst, pld :p

[Siviard]

Where are the forum mods?
Literally personal attacks + petty finding an outdated profile on another site and trying to use it as an ad hominem attack that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Mods? Hello?

Who said I was attacking you personally? I'm simply asking a question. That question is "Why do you have Ku Klux Klan levels of hatred towards Geomancer?" It's not that hard a question to answer.

And "outdated profile"? You have activity on there as recent as 12-22-2016 so I'd say that profile of yours is still pretty active.

[Elexia]

The way XIAH pulls profile information was through the community site beta, however guildwork is still very much active. Like I said before, I'm just guessing the hate towards Geomancer is that there's only a few to go around on smaller servers and "If I can't have a geomancer no one can" mentality is prevalent.

[OmnysValefor]

It does get old the tremendous difference that GEO makes, Bard used to make that difference but isn't quite up there (March isn't as potent as it once was)

The best solution is to buff bard, address some of their outdated songs and grant their songs (at least during SV) dispel protection. Many of the Idrises I know are harp/horn bards.

Pleast boost BRD to make it competitive again (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/51536-Please-boost-BRD-to-make-it-competitive-again)

And the difference Frailty or Malaise makes is large and nobody has anything close.

[Zeargi]

It does get old the tremendous difference that GEO makes, Bard used to make that difference but isn't quite up there (March isn't as potent as it once was)

The best solution is to buff bard, address some of their outdated songs and grant their songs (at least during SV) dispel protection. Many of the Idrises I know are harp/horn bards.

Pleast boost BRD to make it competitive again (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/51536-Please-boost-BRD-to-make-it-competitive-again)

And the difference Frailty or Malaise makes is large and nobody has anything close..


Which goes back to what I said earlier. The other support jobs need to be boosted and things need to be reevaluated. The Immunobreak system, songs, rolls, spells, and wards are all a good place to start, but destroying one job isn't going to magically make the other ones better.

[Shiyo]

Geo needs to be destroyed, it breaks the game in half. It makes enemies have no defense/mdef and greatly reduced magical evasion while giving mages GREATLY increased magical accuracy.

Nerfing geo is much easier than buffing 2 jobs, and RDM would literally need stymie to be passive or new traits that give OBSCENE magical accuracy to ever be worth bringing over a geo, which is far too much work.

Nerfing geo to the GROUND is the easiest way to fix support job balance issues.

[Siviard]

Geo needs to be destroyed, it breaks the game in half. It makes enemies have no defense/mdef and greatly reduced magical evasion while giving mages GREATLY increased magical accuracy.

Nerfing geo is much easier than buffing 2 jobs, and RDM would literally need stymie to be passive or new traits that give OBSCENE magical accuracy to ever be worth bringing over a geo, which is far too much work.

Nerfing geo to the GROUND is the easiest way to fix support job balance issues.

At this point, all I can do is laugh at you. You scream for a nerf yet you won't answer my simple question. Why do you hate Geomancer so much? I eagerly await your response.

[Elexia]

Geo needs to be destroyed, it breaks the game in half.

Using your logic, PLD breaks the game in half. Let's destroy PLD.


It makes enemies have no defense/mdef and greatly reduced magical evasion while giving mages GREATLY increased magical accuracy.

When you can literally slap down 99k damage like nothing and still have plenty of HP left to go through...the game is still balanced out, believe it or not.


Nerfing geo to the GROUND is the easiest way to fix support job balance issues.

It's the easiest way to kill what little player population on your server is left, too.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Geo needs to be destroyed, it breaks the game in half. It makes enemies have no defense/mdef and greatly reduced magical evasion while giving mages GREATLY increased magical accuracy.

Nerfing geo is much easier than buffing 2 jobs, and RDM would literally need stymie to be passive or new traits that give OBSCENE magical accuracy to ever be worth bringing over a geo, which is far too much work.

Nerfing geo to the GROUND is the easiest way to fix support job balance issues.

Uuuh, I think you are under the impression that GEO "magically" allows you to beat every escha mob, when it's not the case. I can assure you that if the BLM don't have MBD damage capped and the SCH doesn't know what to do you are not going to beat, let's say, Maju. GEO does jack if your DD aren't competent.

And let's say they nerf GEO to the ground, so what? People STILL won't get a RDM for most content. GEO isn't taking RDM spot, the mechanics that made RDM needed mostly disappeared.

They would get a COR for everything now. There are 6 spots in a party, of course people will want t a support job anytime it is possible.

Oh and he would have a thread about needing to buff GEO because what are you going to do, have a support job that's completely useless?

[Domille]

In theory, if GEO were gone, mobs would be set at the level of already having wilt langour vex and frailty on them.

Everything would be exactly the same, only without needing a geo to force the issue.

The theory is solid. The way square does things makes it impossible, so forget it.

[Jin_Uzuki]

In theory, if GEO were gone, mobs would be set at the level of already having wilt langour vex and frailty on them.

Everything would be exactly the same, only without needing a geo to force the issue.

The theory is solid. The way square does things makes it impossible, so forget it.

The theory in which you remove a job (and the equipment related stuff I guess) from the game and they literally rework pretty much every end-game mob is solid? What???

Also they STILL would fill the support job slot with a COR. It doesn't matter how much you hate GEO, there will always been a support slot taken in every party, just like there will always been a PLD/RUN and WHM slot unless you are doing faceroll content.

[Domille]

The theory in which you remove a job (and the equipment related stuff I guess) from the game and they literally rework pretty much every end-game mob is solid? What???

Also they STILL would fill the support job slot with a COR. It doesn't matter how much you hate GEO, there will always been a support slot taken in every party, just like there will always been a PLD/RUN and WHM slot unless you are doing faceroll content.

The buffs cor and bard bring are MINOR.

The buffs AND DEBUFFS geo bring, are MAJOR.

There is a difference.

GEO changes the game at a fundamental level. BRD and COR simply make it a little faster.

[Jin_Uzuki]

The buffs cor and bard bring are MINOR.

The buffs AND DEBUFFS geo bring, are MAJOR.

There is a difference.

GEO changes the game at a fundamental level. BRD and COR simply make it a little faster.

No, they are not. You don't seem to understand how powerful COR buffs are.

There is literally 0 wrong with having a support job for every major content. It's literally the point of these jobs and how FFXI battle system was designed. GEO is not "stealing" your sport in your party as much as WHM and Tank are. There are 6 spots in a party, support takes 1, tank takes another, healer takes one and rest are DD.

No one is going to take your WAR over a COR once they filled their DD spots.

[Nyarlko]

In theory, if GEO were gone, mobs would be set at the level of already having wilt langour vex and frailty on them.

Everything would be exactly the same, only without needing a geo to force the issue.

The theory is solid. The way square does things makes it impossible, so forget it.

I don't think you understand how level adjustment works. :/ The combat values needed for higher level content is due to the linear stat increases that mobs get just for being higher level than us. It has nothing to do with GEO existing or not. It only matters how many levels over our ilvl the mob is. For instance, other than fight specific mechanics, job traits, or species which provide some form of evasion modification, there is a very predictable linear increase in how much physical accuracy is required per level over ours.

Removing GEO would not automagically include any adjustments to the baseline combat system or every single mob's stats, so no, mobs would not have wilt/languor/vex/frailty baked into them. It would just become probably impossible to reach capped stat values on 145+ content.

IMO, those of us here who are calling for GEO nerfs should accept that even from a cynical/negative/WorstCaseScenario viewpoint, GEO is the crutch/bandaid being used at this point to allow clvl to continue to creep upwards without performing any of the actual adjustments to the other 21 jobs and/or core combat systems that would be required to handle 145+ content w/o GEO, and that nerfing buffs/debuffs would provide no actual benefits to how any of us play the game. Then join those of us in the anti-nerf faction and join in the call for buffs to BRD/RDM so we won't feel stupid for not using GEO. :D


Geo needs to be destroyed, it breaks the game in half. It makes enemies have no defense/mdef and greatly reduced magical evasion while giving mages GREATLY increased magical accuracy.

Nerfing geo is much easier than buffing 2 jobs, and RDM would literally need stymie to be passive or new traits that give OBSCENE magical accuracy to ever be worth bringing over a geo, which is far too much work.

Nerfing geo to the GROUND is the easiest way to fix support job balance issues.

It would not be "the easiest way" at all since it would require changes to core combat systems and/or adjustments to all 22 jobs in order to not make 145+ content most likely impossible to complete. That would likely be a larger workload for the devs than buffing 2 jobs. It's also a very bad idea/stance to take when it should be pretty obvious to any who look at them that BRD and RDM need serious work as it stands to be brought out of pre-SoA performance levels.

[Domille]

Look. I know you guys are new, and you don't understand how square works.

Geo's obscenely broken. Blu is obscenely broken. Immanence is broken. 100k bursts w/ zero enmity is broken.

Thinking they aren't doesn't make them ok. They are flat out broken. And as the updates roll in all we get is more breaks and zero fixes.

Now, you might enjoy that, still doesn't mean it's not broken.

Bard and Cor COMBINED are -never- going to be on GEOs level. It. will. not. happen.

and I don't play war. I just dont care enough to change the default.

[Nyarlko]

IMO, the only thing that could stand to be nerfed for GEO right now is possibly Cardinal Chant.
(You know, that positional buff system for nukes that no one bothers with usually since they don't nuke on GEO. <,<)

From some limited reports from others, and my own very limited testing, it seems as if CC might be classified as Magic Burst Damage II. Provided that that is the case, then the new AF119+3 hat would provide a maximum of MBDII+44% when the mob is true west of the player, which means that with maximum MBD gear, a GEO/blm would have +100% while a maximum MBD geared Job Master BLM would have +104% (+106% if you include the new AF119+3 hands). The /blm only adds +5%, so even a GEO/whm may potentially be able to match a BLM when it comes to nuking if CC does indeed give MBDII, which I find a bit worrisome. In that case, the game really could become a "PLD WHM GEO GEO GEO GEO" setup for basically everything that doesn't have extreme MDT-%. o_O;; That setup would have 10x bubbles at a time AND 4x nukers of BLM caliber.

Solutions to prevent this from occurring are simple at least. ^^;; Nerf the hat, change the MBDII granted by Cardinal Chant to MBDI, or nerf the MBDII values granted by 40%-50%.
Not joining the "Nerf GEO" faction here, but it might be wise to address this issue before it becomes an actual issue if CC really does grant MBDII. None of it applies if CC currently grants MBDI and I screwed up my testing methods. XD

[Shiyo]

The buffs cor and bard bring are MINOR.

The buffs AND DEBUFFS geo bring, are MAJOR.

There is a difference.

GEO changes the game at a fundamental level. BRD and COR simply make it a little faster.
Well, I think COR buffs are pretty huge but I agree that cor/brd buffs simply make things faster while geo completely changes the game and breaks it in half.

Chaos + store tp(or double attack) is huuuuuuuuuge TP gain and increases your damage a lot, but it doesn't increase it at anywhere near the level of a geo will, ever. Removing 50%+ of an enemies defense while giving everyone a ton of attack is insane, the mob goes from huge defense to capping your pdif by simply bringing a geo, which adds more damage than a cor ever will by itself.

As stated above, Frailty removes over 50% of an enemies defenses and works for the ENTIRE ALLIANCE including PETS. No other jobs can bring something this strong.

Vex + attunement can't be replaced by anything any other job brings, and allows you to almost completely ignore enemies entire damaging mechanics and just TP burn it with melee. Without vex + attunement your melee would need to use a lot of -DT gear fulltime and eat status effects 24/7, game breaking buffs only geo can bring.

Malaise removes 100% of nearly every enemies magic defense which is an obscene magic damage boost that NO OTHER JOB IN THE GAME can give your entire ALLIANCE.

Languor + Focus gives you an obscene amount of magical accuracy on a level that no other job in the game can bring. Frazzle gives a good amount of -magical evasion to enemies but it ACTUALLY CANNOT LAND ON ANYTHING YOU NEED IT ON IT BECAUSE IT CAN BE RESISTED UNLIKE GEO DEBUFFS. while also NOT EVEN AS STRONG AS AN IDRA LANGOUR. Makes a lot of sense.

So yeah, anyone saying cor/brd are comparable are pretty much not thinking straight. What a geo brings cannot be replaced by any other job, geo fills up 1/6 party slots automatically because you cannot replace it's powerful buffs with any other single job and it is the most efficient and best way to debuff enemies and buff yourself. It also enables strategies you could never do without a geo so it breaks the game in half and enables things no other support job enables.

Geo needs to be nerfed to the ground.

[Elexia]

In theory, if GEO were gone, mobs would be set at the level of already having wilt langour vex and frailty on them.

Everything would be exactly the same, only without needing a geo to force the issue.

The theory is solid. The way square does things makes it impossible, so forget it.

See the problem with this "theory" is they need to remove ilvl and job gifts/Points in order to redesign the monsters. The current in-game method to kill your "theory"? Look at any pre-ilvl content designed prior to Seekers. Look at the content design, the monster design, the mechanics and the NMs.

You play on Asura which I personally know has quite a few Geos to go around, so I'm not sure why the hate. I can understand on servers with abysmal player population that people would hate what they can't have.


Look. I know you guys are new.

The only person here new is you, as you have no idea how not only does game design work but how SE works with FFXI. I've played XI since the initial Japanese beta, so "new" is one thing I'm not to their MMOs. However, the only thing that would change if they did "nerf geo into the ground" is force them to introduce MORE TEMPORARY ITEMS AND EFFECTS, because straight buffing COR and BRD will not only affect NMs and monsters who happen to have those jobs (especially in older content) but it would just lead to the same people crying to NERF COR/BRD INTO THE GROUND! because there won't be any available to them.

While older content may not be relevant anymore, from a game design standpoint, you don't want to suddenly change something that will completely decimate a portion of the game hence: why it was 50/50 people either loved or despised Abyssea and later the ilvl introduction.


Bard and Cor COMBINED are -never- going to be on GEOs level. It. will. not. happen.

Because they're designed differently. Warrior, Monk and WHM combined talents will never have the tanking prowess of a PLD, ever.


100k bursts w/ zero enmity is broken.

Unless this outright kills every current ilvl progression monster in one cast, it's not "broken"

I understand hating Geomancer because your group doesn't have one or you can't recruit them easily because someone else gets to them first, but it's silly to want to nerf a good job into the ground and expect everything to be sunshine and rainbows. However if anyone truly believes the game suddenly changes because they introduced a new job, well...there's 100s of MMOs out there with more jobs that need to be played to understand the basics of game evolution and how it's not 100% tied to a new job, especially retroactively.


which means that with maximum MBD gear, a GEO/blm would have +100% while a maximum MBD geared Job Master BLM would have +104% (+106% if you include the new AF119+3 hands). The /blm only adds +5%, so even a GEO/whm may potentially be able to match a BLM when it comes to nuking if CC does indeed give MBDII, which I find a bit worrisome. In that case, the game really could become a "PLD WHM GEO GEO GEO GEO" setup for basically everything that doesn't have extreme MDT-%. o_O;; That setup would have 10x bubbles at a time AND 4x nukers of BLM caliber.

BLM would still pull ahead in terms of nuking. It's similar to the SCH vs BLM debate back in 2007-2009. The thing to keep in mind, a vanilla Geo will never outnuke or come anywhere near a BLM in terms of raw damage, ontop of having to deal with CC, that's the balance of the job which people usually overlook because it's very simple to ignore that you need to do a lot more for Geo. That's why you rarely see some deal with it because they know they're mainly there to be buff/debuff support, not nuking (though it speeds things up to actually nuke.)

Similar to the SCH vs WHM debate and how people were saying "you should have just given Light/Dark Arts to WHM and BLM" because people felt threatened by the good SCHs, but you simply can't replace jobs tailored to do one thing really well.


Well, I think COR buffs are pretty huge but I agree that cor/brd buffs simply make things faster while geo completely changes the game and breaks it in half..

Again using your logic, COR and BRD breaks the game in half too, because they introduce buffs and speeds the game up, similar to how mobs dying quicker.....speeds the game up.

SHOCKING!


Vex + attunement can't be replaced by anything

Because no other job is designed to do this. Geomancer is.


Malaise removes 100% of nearly every enemies magic defense which is an obscene magic damage boost that NO OTHER JOB IN THE GAME can give your entire ALLIANCE.

Because no other job is designed to do this. Geomancer is.

Serious question: Is Ilvl Seekers when you started playing FFXI..or...?


Languor + Focus gives you an obscene amount of magical accuracy

As does having good ilvl gear and mastery, or did you forget ilvl gear is a thing?


So yeah, anyone saying cor/brd are comparable are pretty much not thinking straight.

You and anyone who thinks Geomancer "breaks the game" aren't thinking straight because you can't "break" something that make insanely difficult content easier. If you toss 99k damage at pre seekers content, you'll steamroll it. Toss it at post ilvl seekers content that is designed with all of this in mind? Tell me you've actually done the content to realize nerfing Geomancer won't do anything but make things harder than it needs to be.


geo fills up 1/6 party slots automatically

PALADIN AND WHITE MAGE AUTOMATICALLY FILLS UP A PARTY SLOT.

I wonder why...since you don't seem to understand how things work, in MMORPGs Tank/Healer/Support slots are automatically filled and usually the most sought after.

FFXI 2003 - 2009 BRDs couldn't go 10 seconds without getting a tell or blind party invite. CORs couldn't go 10 seconds without getting a tell or blind party invite. RDMs couldn't go more than 10 seconds without getting a tell or blind party invite, WHMs and PLDs couldn't go more than 10 seconds without getting a tell or blind party invite.

Want to know why? Because they were sought after jobs. But you didn't play FFXI prior to ilvl content, so you don't understand that what's happening now with Geomancer is nothing new to FFXI.


It also enables strategies you could never do without a geo so it breaks the game in half and enables things no other support job enables.


We can go into a whole new conversation about /DNC and SCHs changing set strategies prior to WoTG.

[Domille]

See the problem with this "theory" is they need to remove ilvl and job gifts/Points in order to redesign the monsters.

All of those are complete garbage, i would gladly get rid of Job Points GEO and Igarbage, so not really convincing me otherwise.

It's cute that you try insults not knowing that I've done more in this game than you ever will, and played longer (everyone claims to have played since release on this site). And realize that things are broken.

Things are very obviously broken. if you play this game for 5 minutes you can see that.

BRD COR and RDM didn't change the game, they merely speed it up. GEO changes the entirety of the game. It's a very simple concept.

GEO is a literal game changer. No other job is like that. That is a bad thing for an MMO.

RUN PLD PUP are all interchangable.

WHM RDM SCH are all basically interchangable.

NOTHING comes close to langour focus malaise vex attune frailty.

[Elexia]

It's cute that you try insults not knowing that I've done more in this game than you ever will, and played longer.

Unless you've helped develop this game in the late 90s, I highly doubt you could play longer and "do more" than myself, considering well, I played since the Japanese beta. You can continue to assume, though.


BRD COR and RDM didn't change the game

BRD didn't have access to particular, gaming changing buffs that Corsair did. If you played as long as you did, you would know that. However having decked out BRDs and CORs for alliance rotation were a thing for a reason. If you feel nothing changed in XI after COR's introduction, then you actually haven't played the game as long as you claim. Likewise when Refresh became a thing, well..I'm sure nothing changed in the game in terms of MP management, yeah?


they merely speed it up

Similar to how monsters dying quicker speeds the game up.

Then again, I've played XI long enough to know hating a job because my group didn't have access to them is silly. I'm guessing the whole "breaks the game" is being used subjectively, when anyone who's played XI knows the game has been "broken" long before Geomancer was even a passing thought.

[Jin_Uzuki]

So yeah, anyone saying cor/brd are comparable are pretty much not thinking straight. What a geo brings cannot be replaced by any other job, geo fills up 1/6 party slots automatically because you cannot replace it's powerful buffs with any other single job and it is the most efficient and best way to debuff enemies and buff yourself. It also enables strategies you could never do without a geo so it breaks the game in half and enables things no other support job enables.


You don't seem to understand what I am saying. It's not "GEO" that it's locked in the party slot, it's "support". I dosesn't matter if GEO is more powerful than COR, people will always, always, always, always take a support job. They will gladly take 2 supports over a DD.

Where you in 2006 when ppl TP burned Sky Gods with BRD?


Geo needs to be nerfed to the ground.

Ok, we nerfed GEO. Guess what? That party slot is still filled by a support still. Now it's COR. COR is not powerful as GEO? Who cares! It still a support job powering up ALL the DD in your party.

Also we need to buff GEO now because what are you going to do, have a useless job?

[Shiyo]

If you nerf geo then there's 3 viable jobs for support instead of one ;/(geo bard cor)
At 75 cap there was 2(cor bard)
Nerfing geo to the ground(it's this overpowered) balances the support jobs.

I don't care about a JOB ROLE being a mandatory slot, but geo isn't a role, it has it's own party slot that only it can fill. That's horrible.

Support role being filled by 3 jobs equally as strong/different niches would be perfect. That's called balance.

Basically:

Right now geo fills a mandatory role in a party that ONLY geo can do. It needs to be nerfed to the ground(its that overpowered) so that it's party slot becomes the "support slot" instead of "geo slot".

[Zeargi]

If you nerf geo then there's 3 viable jobs for support instead of one ;/(geo bard cor)
At 75 cap there was 2(cor bard)
Nerfing geo to the ground balances the support jobs.

It doesn't balance anything. It doesn't make those jobs any better. I've never understood that mentality. Why does it have to be bring someone down, rather than build others up... We as the players have spent a good part or our time inside this digital world, maybe some more than the Devs themselves. So again, offer better solutions, and give ideas that could put the other jobs on a higher field. JT, JA, Weapons, Instruments. Think of something productive, rather than something detrimental.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Or you could just buff BRD, who is badly designed for modern endgame anyway and needs a rework.

COR is a fine place because other than powerful buffs, it can actually do some pretty good damage even on high level content with Leden Salute (Something GEO can't absolutely do) Plus a lot of people even prefer to take 2 supports anyway.

I guess we'll need to nerf WHM since "healer spot" is pretty much "WHM spot" for any high level content.

(Last part is a joke, do not nerf WHM)

[Elexia]

If you nerf geo then there's 3 viable jobs for support instead of one ;/(geo bard cor)
At 75 cap there was 2(cor bard)
Nerfing geo to the ground balances the support jobs.

There's multiple support jobs now. You nerf Geo to being useless, you essentially removed a job out of play. No one will go: "Well..now that Geo is worthelss...I guess...we'll take BRD and COR." The whole reason people shy away from BRD/COR depending on slot availablity is because they haven't been updated to the current game design, BRD in particular.


Nerfing Geomancer doesn't change that. You just succeeded in getting a job you hate nerfed. That's it lol. The game won't suddenly change, balance will not be restored.

At 75 cap you had BRD and COR, during Abyssea (80-95) you had no use for BRD/COR because Atmas and temp items pretty much made them largely useless. They had niche uses, sure, but you could definitely do all of the content without them. Heroes big baddies were subjective though.


I don't care about a JOB ROLE being a mandatory slot, but geo isn't a role

Geomancer is a support job. It's role is support. It can also nuke, similar to how SCH can heal and nuke as well.


Right now geo fills a mandatory role in a party that ONLY geo can do

It fills the exact same role as a healer or tank in an MMORPG. You want a Tank and Healer and Support. There's no such thing as a "geo" role or you have to dig deeper through the years and say:

"PLD role"
"Whm role"
"Sam role"
"Brd role"
"Cor role"

etc. Your logic is all over the place. Geo has unique buffs and debuffs. Cor has unique buffs and enhances certain debuffs though quickdraw, which makes it unique over BRD.

The only problem here is BRD and COR needs retooling a bit. COR can and has always been able to deal decent damage along with being able to support, so it is indeed better off than BRD, but BRD has always struggled since post WoTG because, well the game continued to move up but BRD and COR's buffs were never changed to matched - even more so with ilvl calculations now. This is a big part of why GEO shines because it's designed for the new gameplay.

[Shiyo]

It doesn't balance anything. It doesn't make those jobs any better. I've never understood that mentality. Why does it have to be bring someone down, rather than build others up... We as the players have spent a good part or our time inside this digital world, maybe some more than the Devs themselves. So again, offer better solutions, and give ideas that could put the other jobs on a higher field. JT, JA, Weapons, Instruments. Think of something productive, rather than something detrimental.
Detrimental is Geo existing in it's current state.

You nerf things because it's easier to nerf 1 thing than to buff multiple, and POWER CREEP IS BAD. It's especially important to nerf things when they're completely out of control(like geo) and literally break the game in half. If a job 1 shot every boss in the game, would your solution be to buff every DD job to 1 shot bosses? No? Exactly.

This extreme aversion to nerfing things that(rightfully) need to be nerfed has to stop.

[Elexia]

Detrimental is Geo existing in it's current state.

You nerf things because it's easier to nerf 1 thing than to buff multiple, and POWER CREEP IS BAD.

You normally nerf things when there's a problem or something is too beneficial than intended, e.g resale price of tavnazian panties that got exploited.

Geomancer doesn't fit into either of those categories as the only argument is: "Nerf Geo, I hate it. It destroys the game, nerfing Geo will make BRD and COR relevant again." BST getting nerfed was for a particular reason, buffing 21 other jobs to match a BST pet capabilities would have been silly as heck.

[Jin_Uzuki]

You need to buff 1 job, Bard. Who should get a buff because it's not properly updated to deal with modern FFXI endgame anyway.

[Shiyo]

Won't fix anything. Instead of geo + geo(vex/attumement or caster set ups) and geo + cor(melee/pet set ups) being viable, you'll have geo + cor(melee/pet set ups), geo + brd(melee set ups) and geo + geo(when you need vex/attunement or caster set ups).

Geo is still it's own party slot. The job needs to be nerfed to the ground.

[Elexia]

Won't fix anything. Instead of geo + geo(vex/attumement or caster set ups) and geo + cor(melee/pet set ups) being viable, you'll have geo + cor(melee/pet set ups), geo + brd(melee set ups) and geo + geo(when you need vex/attunement or caster set ups).

Geo is still it's own party slot. The job needs to be nerfed to the ground.

Hating on a job because your server has very few available doesn't fix anything.

Buffing BRD, however, fixes more than trying to nerf a job. Geo has the support party slot. If you actually played FFXI, you know, longer than the past year you'd know BRD and COR were pretty "mandatory slots" just as well.

[Mithlas]

What kind of nerfs do you have in mind? Besides just overall "nerf to the ground."

Lower bubble values? Resistable bubbles? Shorter bubble life? Removal of specific bubbles? I'm genuinely curious.

If they do end up nerfing GEO, how will that help any other jobs rise to the occasion? Elexia makes a very valid point: other support jobs are just not developed to meet the current meta. They have not scaled well at all with the way the game has been developing.

[Zeargi]

Detrimental is Geo existing in it's current state.

You nerf things because it's easier to nerf 1 thing than to buff multiple, and POWER CREEP IS BAD. It's especially important to nerf things when they're completely out of control(like geo) and literally break the game in half. If a job 1 shot every boss in the game, would your solution be to buff every DD job to 1 shot bosses? No? Exactly.

This extreme aversion to nerfing things that(rightfully) need to be nerfed has to stop.


Power Creeping isn't what's going on here. They changed GEO way back when, a few months after it came out for certain spells. In all points, BRD and GEO work exactly the same with the division of their overall skills make the potential of what they can do. An under-skilled/Under-geared GEO isn't going to make those numbers happen. BRD needs to have new songs that effect those areas that it doesn't cover. It's been a while since I've played BRD, but as I recall off the top of my head they get: Nocturne (Addle) and Elegy (Slow) which are the only ones to directly impact there stats. While getting Requiem (DoT) and Lullaby (Sleep) as other debuffs. There needs to be a Magic DMG/MEVA (Frazzle)/EVA (Distract)/ACC Down Songs. Likewise, RDM need more spells to cover the other slots it's not getting. Plus both need the means to land those things more consistently. The major resist for NMs is the reason GEO is so loved. The Mobs resist normal spells, so the that is what needs to be addressed. Not GEO, you're not solving the problem, you're only making it worse.

[Shiyo]

Plus both need the means to land those things more consistently. The major resist for NMs is the reason GEO is so loved. The Mobs resist normal spells, so the that is what needs to be addressed. Not GEO, you're not solving the problem, you're only making it worse.
Mobs having such obscene magic evasion to the point where 95% of your spell book is rendered pointless to use is really annoying.
I'm not sure why they think it's good to have that, it adds zero depth and just makes it less fun to play as 95% of your tools simply don't function. No debuffs in the game are so overpowered that if they landed 100% of the time they'd make the game a joke or enemies worthless. Hilariously enough, the debuffs that ARE overpowered CANNOT be resisted(geo spells).

I want debuffs to have 100% land rate on anything with a moderate amount of magical accuracy gear and for jobs like NIN to not have problems getting unresisted nukes with a moderate amount of macc gear for their nuke set.

Insane magic evasion values for mobs needs to go away and never come back, it adds nothing to the games combat, it simply takes away a lot of ways to play and viable strategies and reduces your job(s) to basically mashing your WS button over and over in a lot of cases, or for something like a RDM rendered completely worthless or a cure/buff bot.

Boring.

edit:

I think I should make a thread purely about this subject, honestly.

[Zeargi]

Mobs having such obscene magic evasion to the point where 95% of your spell book is rendered pointless to use is really annoying.
I'm not sure why they think it's good to have that, it adds zero depth and just makes it less fun to play as 95% of your tools simply don't function. No debuffs in the game are so overpowered that if they landed 100% of the time they'd make the game a joke or enemies worthless. Hilariously enough, the debuffs that ARE overpowered CANNOT be resisted(geo spells).

I want debuffs to have 100% land rate on anything with a moderate amount of magical accuracy gear and for jobs like NIN to not have problems getting unresisted nukes with a moderate amount of macc gear for their nuke set.

Insane magic evasion values for mobs needs to go away and never come back, it adds nothing to the games combat, it simply takes away a lot of ways to play and viable strategies and reduces your job(s) to basically mashing your WS button over and over in a lot of cases, or for something like a RDM rendered completely worthless or a cure/buff bot.

Boring.

edit:

I think I should make a thread purely about this subject, honestly.

But that's the thing. It's the Mobs themselves and the immunobreak system that's part of the problem. As well, as RDM and BRD don't get JT/JA or Songs/Spells to make up for the facts they can be resisted. SCH, NIN, WHM, DNC all have things to to switch modes to boost things

SCH's arts make up it's lower base skill caps in either fields, as well as JA's that convert Single Target to AoE or Perform SCs.
DNC's Saber and Fan Dances, while merited, are still good when used in certain situations
NIN gets Yonin/Innin which should give it the the means to tanks or DD
WHMs mostly stay in one mode, but the other does have it's benefits.

COR could benefit from a DD and Support Mode. Where in DD mode their power goes up greatly but perhaps cost a die slot. Where a support mode would allow for a 3rd die, but limits or increases the timer for Elemental Card Shots.

RDM and BRD could also have modes similiar to this. RDM gained a JA like BRD's Pianissimo to cast self targeting spells on others. Give RDM access to Enlight and endark, change the En-spells to boost the power of enfeebling of matching types like the COR elemental shots. There's lots of positive solutions that can be made.

[OmnysValefor]

You need to buff 1 job, Bard. Who should get a buff because it's not properly updated to deal with modern FFXI endgame anyway.

This is the answer in its entirety.

When bard came out, it was the only spell haste besides the white magic spell.

It offered the only accuracy boost buff other than what jobs brought (edit:and food)

The attack boost that Minuets offered, while always static, was larger in relation to 75-era attack values than it is today. A google image search was the best I could come up with (https://www.google.com/search?q=ffxi&hl=en&biw=1164&bih=835&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2001%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F2011&tbm=isch#hl=en&tbm=isch&q=ffxi+ws+set&imgrc=sKFGTVRcYR_CrM%3A). I did search for "ws sets" because that gave me more equipment panel results than "equipment screen" or anything like it.

Very well geared DD sporting WS sets that weren't half of what my PLD tanks in (str and attack numbers, specifically)

In an era when haste on a piece of gear was "neat", bard's haste songs (closest thing cor has/had is delay reduction, which is not as good before magic-haste cap) were amazing.

You can say Bard was never game breaking but it absolutely was. Madrigals, Marches, Ballads, and more, were the reason people did everything from win top-end fights to get 30k exp (!) an hour. The truth is, nerfing GEO "to the ground" isn't going to fix Bard's problems. There was a reason that alliances had 3 bards, and it wasn't so each party got one.

The job needs a mechanic overhaul, a little bit of love towards dispel interaction with songs, and some interesting songs baseline to the job. The songs are only bland by today's standards.

[Urthdigger]

We should just reduce the 22 jobs we have now to just four. Geomancer, a singular tank job, one healer, and a DPS class.

That would fix everything.

[Elexia]

We should just reduce the 22 jobs we have now to just four. Geomancer, a singular tank job, one healer, and a DPS class.

That would fix everything.

No, because then we still need to nerf geomancer into the ground...then we must choose which healer and DD class, which would lead to begging to nerf them into ground because they got chosen over other jobs.

There is no solution to having fallacy mentality :p

[Camate]

Thanks for all the feedback on this.

The development team is currently looking into overall adjustments to enfeebling magic as well as enhancing magic, and this also includes the stats that monsters possess. The team is in the midst of testing, so once there is some follow-up information we’ll be sure to share.

[Zuidar]

Thanks for all the feedback on this.

The development team is currently looking into overall adjustments to enfeebling magic as well as enhancing magic, and this also includes the stats that monsters possess. The team is in the midst of testing, so once there is some follow-up information we’ll be sure to share.

I hope they do consider adjustments when they reach a conclusion for spells that fall under those categories and stuff. One example in my opinion like boost phalanx spells and on top of it have enhancing magic skill influence it even further than it's current state. For the moment I can't think of anything else that comes to mind, so just listing one example.

[Zeargi]

I hope they do consider adjustments when they reach a conclusion for spells that fall under those categories and stuff. One example in my opinion like boost phalanx spells and on top of it have enhancing magic skill influence it even further than it's current state. For the moment I can't think of anything else that comes to mind, so just listing one example.

I hope that applies to SMN's wards as well >_>;

[Jakuk]

I hope they do consider adjustments when they reach a conclusion for spells that fall under those categories and stuff. One example in my opinion like boost phalanx spells and on top of it have enhancing magic skill influence it even further than it's current state. For the moment I can't think of anything else that comes to mind, so just listing one example.

Probably end up just being some spells going to 600 skill, as for Enfeebling, been burned too much in the past to hold out for much.

Still I hope I'm wrong.


I hope that applies to SMN's wards as well >_>;

Because Summon really needs more buffs right now?

[Urmom]

I hope they do consider adjustments when they reach a conclusion for spells that fall under those categories and stuff. One example in my opinion like boost phalanx spells and on top of it have enhancing magic skill influence it even further than it's current state. For the moment I can't think of anything else that comes to mind, so just listing one example.

Barspells and enspells could use a boost too. Another thing they should change is how the gear works. Namely +phalanx gear currently only counts on the person being cast on not the one casting and iirc enspells do something similar and tier 2 is recalculated each time you attack which should be changed and could given the strength of runes could easily take off the first hit restriction. Should also change most the self only buffs into targeted within pt. Maybe take off the self only restriction on the bonus to composure as well.

Enfeebling... so many things. System wide parts of it need fixed like get rid of full resist (ie make a 1/2 or 1/4 resist be the minimum similar to nukes), pretty much every spell needs a potency increase and many need to have their effects changed/or effects added to them. Need to make the +enfeeble effect gear work on all enfeeble spells, more enhance enfeeble gear, make saboteur work on all enfeeble spells AND take away the nerf on nms, and either just make T2/t3 enfeebles available without merits or add a T3/t4

[OmnysValefor]

Thanks for all the feedback on this.

The development team is currently looking into overall adjustments to enfeebling magic as well as enhancing magic, and this also includes the stats that monsters possess. The team is in the midst of testing, so once there is some follow-up information we’ll be sure to share.

._. think you might consider buffing Flash's magic accuracy at some point? It's still bread-and-butter for enmity but I miss when it made things..miss. And to be honest, it doesn't even land half the time.

[Cabalabob]

Because Summon really needs more buffs right now?

Yeah? Our buffs and debuffs are still stuck in the 75 era, you think you've got it bad? At least your buffs and debuffs are worth a damn if they land. Our phalanx is still capped at 13 damage reduction.

[Zeargi]

Because Summon really needs more buffs right now?

There are quite few wards that are far under - Many of them coming from Fenrir and Diabolos. Noctoshield, Dream Shroud, Lunar Cry, Ecliptic Growl/Howl, Pavor Nocturnus, Earthen Ward, Eerie Eye, Sleepga, Slowga, Pacifying Ruby, Shining Ruby. Even some of the higher tiers like Shock Squall, Tidal Roar, and Diamond Storm miss. SMN's damage has gone up quite a bit, but most of wards have fallen to the wayside. Soothing Current, Crystal Blessing, Hastega II, and Earthen Armor. Those are usually all I really get to cast because Phalanx isn't much. Dream Shroud, Lunar Cry, Ecliptic Howl/Growl aren't always useful because a +1 to ACC or a -1 to EVA isn't going to really help anyone. Pavor Nocturnus isn't going to kill anything most of the time and it hella expensive for a dispel when Fenrir or Atomos are better options for removing buffs. Diamond Storm is blocked by Lunar Cry even though it has higher eva-. Shining Ruby can't be removed and has to time out, but can't be renewed by casting it again. Eerie Eye is the only source of silence SMN has and it's a gaze move that doesn't even last that long, and the amnesia effect is even shorter. Which is like a more costly version of Shock Squall and far less effective.

We want to give more options as to take other jobs for support, that's the goal right now.

[Jakuk]

Yeah? Our buffs and debuffs are still stuck in the 75 era, you think you've got it bad? At least your buffs and debuffs are worth a damn if they land. Our phalanx is still capped at 13 damage reduction.

Yes, but you're not a job intended to be an Enfeebler or Enhancer, it's just an additional benefit given. When you can't do your jobs function well like RDM or BRD then there is a problem.

SMN is useful now even without those two things, buff them for SMN as well and all you get is an even stronger job already used while the others stay dead. Basically another BLU. A job that can do it all.

[Zeargi]

Yes, but you're not a job intended to be an Enfeebler or Enhancer, it's just an additional benefit given. When you can't do your jobs function well like RDM or BRD then there is a problem.

SMN is useful now even without those two things, buff them for SMN as well and all you get is an even stronger job already used while the others stay dead. Basically another BLU. A job that can do it all.

But that's the thing, views and such shift. SMN never really had much of a focus in the start. We were a "Jack of All, Master of None" Class. Most of the time, SMN was asked to be a healer, and an extremely gimped one at that. It wasn't until they divided our Blood Pacts that we actually had a decent flow of what we could be. Don't get me wrong, I want RDM and BRD to be brought back up to have a strong role, but SMNs have been asking for equally as long to have their wards be remembered as well. Of course SMN is frail compared to BLU, and won't be nearly on that level. BLU's major strength is the vast number of DMG AoE spells/Speed in which it can cast. I don't know if it can get lower than 21s, but our BP timer is what slows us down as a DD/Support. Thunder Spark is the only consistent pact we have, outside of Astral Flows, that is AoE DMG (Level ? Holy can barely be counted as an AoE with how often it misses). All other of our AoE abilities are Wards: Nightmare, Lunar Cry, Ultimate Terror, Tidal Roar, Diamond Storm, Mewing Lullaby, Shock Squall, Slowga, Sleepga. SMN does really well against single targets

[Cabalabob]

Yes, but you're not a job intended to be an Enfeebler or Enhancer, it's just an additional benefit given. When you can't do your jobs function well like RDM or BRD then there is a problem.

SMN is useful now even without those two things, buff them for SMN as well and all you get is an even stronger job already used while the others stay dead. Basically another BLU. A job that can do it all.

But our buffs are SEVERELY underpowered. It's like saying ok we'll bring RDM up to par in their primary role of enfeebling. But for balance purposes we're nerfing your nukes back to the 75 days so your strongest nuke will be a 2k magic burst. What you think you need more buffs?!

[Jakuk]

But our buffs are SEVERELY underpowered. It's like saying ok we'll bring RDM up to par in their primary role of enfeebling. But for balance purposes we're nerfing your nukes back to the 75 days so your strongest nuke will be a 2k magic burst. What you think you need more buffs?!

It really is nowhere near the same, they buffed SMN's DD prowess and never touched anything else (as it's not the role they want SMN to fill), your example would buff one section while weakening another.

Fact: SMN is a DD (And has been from the day it was introduced to the FF Series) and as of a long time now has had buffs to that section of its job and is rather good at said role.

Fact: RDM is an enfeebler but is massively weak in the role compared to other jobs like GEO.

Fact: BRD is an enhancer with buffs still stuck at level 75 and weak compared to jobs like GEO and as such is lacklustre in it's intended role.

What you're basically asking for is the buff intended to allow BRD and RDM to be useful again to be passed onto a job already useful while not seeing how doing so will in turn then block those jobs again as all that will happen is an already good job will then have more use performing the roles of DD, Enhancer and Enfeebler. If anything you should be asking for more BP delay reduction or buffs to that aspect.

[Zeargi]

It really is nowhere near the same, they buffed SMN's DD prowess and never touched anything else (as it's not the role they want SMN to fill), your example would buff one section while weakening another.

Fact: SMN is a DD (And has been from the day it was introduced to the FF Series) and as of a long time now has had buffs to that section of its job and is rather good at said role.

This isn't 100% correct. While there are quite a few Offensive summons there has been equally just as many supportive ones: Carbuncle, Sylph, Seraph, Phoenix, Golem, Unicorn, Siren, Fenrir, Alexander, Lakshmi, Phantom, Queztalli, Catoblepas, Chocobo, Zona Seeker, Ragnarok, Cait Sith, Moogle, Magic Pot, Faerie. It took SMN an extremely long time to get to the DD status it has today, but the simple fact that we have wards means that they are intended to be used. No one is saying to screw RDM or BRD, but to simple not forget about SMN's supportive side as well.


Fact: RDM is an enfeebler but is massively weak in the role compared to other jobs like GEO.

Also incorrect, If you want to talk about conceptions of class creation from the series let's talk about how RDM isn't an enfeebler at all, nor was GEO a "support" class. GEO has actually been a DD class since its debut in FF3, Same as FF5, and Mog's Moogle Dances in FF6, and a DD in all FFT games. Like wise RDM was a Attacker class that could heal and cast black magic. It was only late in the stage that SE decided to make RDM an enfeebler in this game, but failed to give them the tools to do so, much like the problems that BST faced when they were nerfed.


Fact: BRD is an enhancer with buffs still stuck at level 75 and weak compared to jobs like GEO and as such is lacklustre in it's intended role.

What you're basically asking for is the buff intended to allow BRD and RDM to be useful again to be passed onto a job already useful while not seeing how doing so will in turn then block those jobs again as all that will happen is an already good job will then have more use performing the roles of DD, Enhancer and Enfeebler. If anything you should be asking for more BP delay reduction or buffs to that aspect.

I'll give you that BRD is a true support class and has fallen the hardest, but again, no one is asking that they not get buffed too, because they offer special status slots that can stack things with other buffs that can be given.

[Jin_Uzuki]

BRD and GEO are pure support classes in FFXI. Yeah, GEO can do some damage, even solo some T1, but not with actual hard content anyway, it's more of solo than anything.

RDM in FFXI was a jack of all trades, quite powerful really to the point it actually was preferable to WHM because /convert and refresh in a lot of situations. Alas, the game evolved, RDM didn't, and I'm not even sure better enfeebles would fix RDM situation.

[Jakuk]

BRD and GEO are pure support classes in FFXI. Yeah, GEO can do some damage, even solo some T1, but not with actual hard content anyway, it's more of solo than anything.

RDM in FFXI was a jack of all trades, quite powerful really to the point it actually was preferable to WHM because /convert and refresh in a lot of situations. Alas, the game evolved, RDM didn't, and I'm not even sure better enfeebles would fix RDM situation.

On of the biggest benefits of GEO is they have powerful enfeebles. Very rarely does anyone use the buff spells.

So better enfeebles and ones that aren't out and out resisted would indeed help RDM.

[Jin_Uzuki]

As Maleise, etc? I guess. But they are mostly different from RDM enfeebles except maybe Distract.

GEO is really just a BRD updated for current gameplay. BRD never ever shared the same spot as RDM.

[OmnysValefor]

RDM enfeebles work differently because they don't/won't land on anything serious and generally aren't that important anymore. As I've said before: You used to hope Paralyze caught meteor, now you vex/attune against it.

I agree completely that Geomancer is just how you spell Bard in 2015-2017. If GEO didn't exist, Bard would still be a goto job. Bard's buffs aren't weak, they're weak by comparison (and yes, that's obviously a problem)

As for Bard never taking RDM's spot? It certainly did in a lot of content. The only thing it lacked was better enfeebles but enfeebles were only a bonus. Ninjas didn't relex merely because Blind II was on the boss.

[Jin_Uzuki]

RDM enfeebles work differently because they don't/won't land on anything serious and generally aren't that important anymore. As I've said before: You used to hope Paralyze caught meteor, now you vex/attune against it.

I agree completely that Geomancer is just how you spell Bard in 2015-2017. If GEO didn't exist, Bard would still be a goto job. Bard's buffs aren't weak, they're weak by comparison (and yes, that's obviously a problem)

As for Bard never taking RDM's spot? It certainly did in a lot of content. The only thing it lacked was better enfeebles but enfeebles were only a bonus. Ninjas didn't relex merely because Blind II was on the boss.

I mean, I guess, but it's basically the same way as GEO today when you get 2 GEO. You get 2 BRDs because support jobs are incredibly useful, but it didn't replace RDM in a sense that it took over that role, at least it didn't recall. It's like, for Merit you used to get a BRD, DDs, and a RDM (Who stole WHM role in many parties). You couldn't get a 2 BRDs and replace the RDM with that. Unless you are talking about specific fights like TP Burn Kirin?

[Jakuk]

As Maleise, etc? I guess. But they are mostly different from RDM enfeebles except maybe Distract.

GEO is really just a BRD updated for current gameplay. BRD never ever shared the same spot as RDM.

Yes, they are different because they are USEFUL enfeebles that are also unresisted unless they add a mob with specific immunity like the Porrogo in Ambuscade a few months ago, as opposed to FFXI's supposed enfeebler who's spells are resisted or in other cases the mob is completely immune to them, like most dark elemental spells on 90% of mobs now, or absolute rubbish and not worth the time.

Most of the GEO spells should have in reality been split between RDM and BRD, but I guess they wanted new jobs so why waste time on old jobs.

[Urmom]

Yeah? Our buffs and debuffs are still stuck in the 75 era, you think you've got it bad? At least your buffs and debuffs are worth a damn if they land. Our phalanx is still capped at 13 damage reduction.

Pretty much the only debuffs you'd want a rdm for are locked behind jps. A lot of our higher tier stuff is still locked behind merits and again outside of the jp ones they are pretty much designed with old 75 play styles and often potencies in mind while mobs since then have often been designed in such a way that they really don't care. ie nice slow/paralyze there bro it's totally going to slow down my melee dmg when I'm doing some AoE move ever 5 seconds oh btw I also like to use self full erase

[OmnysValefor]

I mean, I guess, but it's basically the same way as GEO today when you get 2 GEO. You get 2 BRDs because support jobs are incredibly useful, but it didn't replace RDM in a sense that it took over that role, at least it didn't recall. It's like, for Merit you used to get a BRD, DDs, and a RDM (Who stole WHM role in many parties). You couldn't get a 2 BRDs and replace the RDM with that. Unless you are talking about specific fights like TP Burn Kirin?

You couldn't? You absolutely could. The biggest trouble usually was finding two bards.

One bard offered more haste an an RDM and the other bard had attack/acc buffs.

Sure bard lacked convert, but it also wasn't spending a lot of MP hasting people and ballads cost no MP.

[BurnNotice]

Honestly, I say make adjustments to other support jobs to make them as competitive as GEO. I feel that nerfing GEO would not solve the problem for the jobs that need a tune up. I am not a career GEO (I haven't unlocked the job tbh), but I would like to see BRD and RDM back in high demand like GEO. I don't see CORs struggle as much to get a party in any event and as for DNC, I would like to see their abilities to be more useful in end-game content (not to mention new abilities period).

To be more succinct, let's really focus on other support jobs and bring them up to date so they can be as needed as GEO.

[Domille]

Yo, that GEO nerf is coming. LOL

I'll be damned, this is pretty hilarious, I CANT WAIT FOR THE POST TO HIT THE ENGLISH SIDE. PITCHFORKS AT THE READY!

[Nyarlko]

Yo, that GEO nerf is coming. LOL

I'll be damned, this is pretty hilarious, I CANT WAIT FOR THE POST TO HIT THE ENGLISH SIDE. PITCHFORKS AT THE READY!

It's not technically a "nerf", it's a "bug fix". XD They found a longstanding issue in the formulas (which has probably been there since the early buffs to GEO after SoA was released.) Seems very SE-ish to do a single pass to fix something but never go back thru to verify that things are working correctly until JP players loudly complain. >_>;;; Don't ignore that they are planning to buff RDM/BRD debuffs at the same time, as well as apparently nerf all SoA+ monsters so we end up w/ something between status quo <> improvement.

So long as they manage to pull off what they seem to be saying and keep overall results the same, there should be no pitchforks required.

[Aysha]

They're nerfing monsters? Nerfing, as in, making them easier to kill, or nerfing as in nerfing our ability to kill them? lol

[Nyarlko]

They're nerfing monsters? Nerfing, as in, making them easier to kill, or nerfing as in nerfing our ability to kill them? lol

Nerfing as in "lowering monster meva for anything added since SoA." Fujito (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/39151-%E6%98%A8%E4%BB%8A%E3%81%AE%E6%88%A6%E9%97%98%E3%83%90%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=591488&viewfull=1#post591488) made a rather long post today explaining what they are planning to do earlier today, and Salalaruru (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/42244-%E5%BC%B1%E4%BD%93%E9%AD%94%E6%B3%95%E3%81%8C%E6%81%AF%E3%82%92%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E3%81%84%E3%81%AA%E3%81%84?p=591489#post591489) posted about a few related things (like Frazzle base duration being increased to 5min so even a 1/2 resisted one will last longer than a full non-resisted effect currently.)

You should be able to get a general idea about it with Google Translate, just be aware that GoogleTrans is nowhere near perfect so you'll have to retranslate from what it spits out into actual English. XD

edit: BGwiki (https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-(NO-DISCUSSION)?p=6848537&viewfull=1#post6848537)has a solid translation up if you don't feel like doing the work yourself.

[Aysha]

Hmm, makes sense. If they nerfed the power of GEO spells, then they'd surely need to nerf the mobs too, because everybody brings GEO to everything.

But then, won't we just be back at Square One, where everybody wants GEO for everything?

Even if they make RDM or BRD stuff a little stronger.... you still have all the problems that RDM has always have: chain-casting short-term buffs is simply not fun. I can't see where they changed at whatsoever, except for Composure but that only affects spells cast upon yourself. I imagine that a RDM would still be casting Haste and Refresh over and over and over again.

GEO, on the other hand, only has to cast it once and it's AoE, and it lasts for a good 5 minutes from what I could tell. Sure, they got stuff like Luopans to deal with, but at least they're not casting the same 2 spells over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

IMO, they should just extend the durations of Haste and Refresh to 10min minimum.

EDIT: Yeah, that BG-wiki looks a lot like what Google spat out, 'cept for the "demonic magic", lol. I was wondering what exactly that was supposed to be... so I guess in the future, I'll remember that "demonic magic" means "magic accuracy", lol.

[Zuidar]

So for the other matter right now when they mentioned "Enhancing Magic", I hope they did not forget anything in regards to Enhancing Magic spells needing buffs to potency/duration such as Stoneskin/Blink/Haste & Flurry/Phalanx I & II/Barspells/Adloquium/ Blaze Ice Shock spikes/ Gain & Boost spells and a buff to other enhancing spells that aren't in that category. Well maybe for haste and flurry spells could use just a duration buff and allowed to be used in accesstion (except Haste 2 / Flurry 2 in the case of Accession).

[Nyarlko]

Hmm, makes sense. If they nerfed the power of GEO spells, then they'd surely need to nerf the mobs too, because everybody brings GEO to everything.

But then, won't we just be back at Square One, where everybody wants GEO for everything?

Even if they make RDM or BRD stuff a little stronger.... you still have all the problems that RDM has always have: chain-casting short-term buffs is simply not fun. I can't see where they changed at whatsoever, except for Composure but that only affects spells cast upon yourself. I imagine that a RDM would still be casting Haste and Refresh over and over and over again.

GEO, on the other hand, only has to cast it once and it's AoE, and it lasts for a good 5 minutes from what I could tell. Sure, they got stuff like Luopans to deal with, but at least they're not casting the same 2 spells over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

IMO, they should just extend the durations of Haste and Refresh to 10min minimum.

5min base duration debuffs don't sound all that "short-term" to me :3 And the idea behind the overall adjustment plan appears to be actual balance (at least for debuffs at this point) between GEO/RDM/BRD, which is a good thing. If they can manage to even things out so that support job selection is based more on aspects that are unique to each job and shared aspects are equal between them, I can start to see some hope for BRD/RDM to be able to compete.

Even though they don't appear to be targeted for this round of adjustments, as far as buffs go, I wholeheartedly disagree with you on 10min durations. O_O;; That would be pretty extreme and wouldn't do much more in practice than cement us into permanent pop>drop jobs for endgame.. 5min seems somewhat more reasonable, but we'd probably be better served if they gave RDM some form of Hastega or at least reduce MP cost so keeping up Haste/Refresh cycles wasn't a strain on MP. BRD... needs an overhaul, which is possibly/hopefully on the way, and increasing base durations would be nice but low priority compared to getting values up to where they need to be first.

[Raydeus]

Funny how long this took, considering how little trouble the devs had nerfing RDM into the ground multiple times in the past.

And yay for special spells that are exempt from immunities and full dispel abilities to begin with while enfeebling and enhancing magic gets f****d. :D

[Jakuk]

Well maybe for haste and flurry spells could use just a duration buff and allowed to be used in accesstion (except Haste 2 / Flurry 2 in the case of Accession).

So basically a buff for SCH and RDM still remains dead...

Personally, I'd like Haste and Haste II to stack with Slow, like every other -delay spell. Instead of being the only one overwritten by slow.

[Domille]

Congratulations on finally successfully killing XI devs!

You finally did what was needed 3 years ago... and you over corrected, as per usual!

Aeonics becoming officially impossible again, great job!

[Nyarlko]

Congratulations on finally successfully killing XI devs!

You finally did what was needed 3 years ago... and you over corrected, as per usual!

Aeonics becoming officially impossible again, great job!

How so? It sounded to me like their goal was an overall reduction of values providing an identical or better result from player perspective.

[Domille]

How so? It sounded to me like their goal was an overall reduction of values providing an identical or better result from player perspective.

They messed it up terribly.

All thoughts of using mages for the big 9 are gone. Absolutely zero chance of using Death strats anymore.

[Songen]

congratulations to all those who aimed to make geo a useless job, the update yesterday was the first step towards your stupid ambitions, what you failed to realise that geo is one of the few jobs that can buff thru magic types. and today that power was lowered. so yeah, congratulations for your selfish ambitions because your under geared jobs couldn't get a party,

Thankfully those who knew better requested for other jobs to be enhanced got one win yesterday for bard. bard being a melee enhancing job with some benifits for mages now makes their return with powers that overdrive melee jobs close to what they used to do back in the day(As a comparison to endgame content of each time).

I really hope those who simply want to nerf a job because they suck at their job or want powers what don't match their job realise theres better ways of doing this, instead of nerfing a job, aim to enhance the job you like (Within reasonable range), work the threads, throw in your ideas. don't say another job should suck because you can't ask for your job to be better, otherwise you'll nerf a job so badly you end up with a close range nerf like beastmaster that ruins its point of a pet job.

[Songen]

One last thing.If you can't get a party. MAKE A DAMN PARTY!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace out!

[Folken]

stuff

The salt is real.

[Songen]

i said what i said, if people read it and understood, high likelyhood noone got it and will insist on that jobs are better nerfed rather than making others better, honestly, most of them complain that geo's too strong, however its idris geo thats strong, and why shouldn't it be strong? its geo's mythic, or relic, or empy valued weapon. if you have the gil, you can buy almost any relic/mythic/empy. it does require some effort for REM weapons, but considering geo/run doesn't get boosted beyond their max unlike other weapons, people should be happy.

Considering geo spells cost a mil in mp to cast, can only cast 2 geo spells at a time with a third being in its lowest form because it can't be calculated with + points. one form requiring geomancer to stand in front line to take hits (If its called for) or have a pet that dies from AoE's frequently. every job has pro's and con's. what people should be doing is trying to find idea's to make other jobs that are lagging behind become more useable as a whole.

[detlef]

How so? It sounded to me like their goal was an overall reduction of values providing an identical or better result from player perspective.A noble goal with botched implementation.

[Nyarlko]

They messed it up terribly.

All thoughts of using mages for the big 9 are gone. Absolutely zero chance of using Death strats anymore.

... From the complaints I'm seeing so far being clustered around 140+ content, it really sounds to me like they forgot to adjust the MOST IMPORTANT VALUE in the formula.... Stats gained per level...

I've been calling for an adjustment to physical evasion for mobs for a long time now due to how the highest level stuff was far too evasive to be reasonable content. (I tend to focus on the highest level "Apex" mobs, particularly in Ra'kaznar zones.. The stated point for adding the Apex mobs originally was as CP party fodder, but how many CP groups can expect to have 1500+ acc w/o access to zone buffs like vorseals?) Heck, even a bug report I filed was accepted about Apex Bat evasion, so there is at least some sort of acknowledged potential problem.. I think it's rather safe to assume that macc/meva function similarly to physical, so it's extremely likely that if the only mobs we are having issues sticking stuff on now are all in the 140+ range, that it is primarily due to the level difference.

I've suggested either reducing the lvl+1 value if they insist on sticking with a linear formula or changing to a scaled formula with lower values the higher the mob's level gets for physical eva, but I've always had a feeling that meva might also need similar adjustments. It's just so much harder to test for meva/macc than physical due to no /checkparam, so I've never lobbied for it before since I couldn't come up with any verifiable values to argue with. ^^;; Sounds like both may need to be re-examined at this point though.

[Jakuk]

i said what i said, if people read it and understood, high likelyhood noone got it and will insist on that jobs are better nerfed rather than making others better, honestly, most of them complain that geo's too strong, however its idris geo thats strong, and why shouldn't it be strong? its geo's mythic, or relic, or empy valued weapon. if you have the gil, you can buy almost any relic/mythic/empy. it does require some effort for REM weapons, but considering geo/run doesn't get boosted beyond their max unlike other weapons, people should be happy.

Considering geo spells cost a mil in mp to cast, can only cast 2 geo spells at a time with a third being in its lowest form because it can't be calculated with + points. one form requiring geomancer to stand in front line to take hits (If its called for) or have a pet that dies from AoE's frequently. every job has pro's and con's. what people should be doing is trying to find idea's to make other jobs that are lagging behind become more useable as a whole.

Because GEO's Mythic makes the job 100 times better than any other jobs mythic makes them?

How about you change BRD's, COR and RDM's Mythic to "Song Potency +100%", "Roll Potency +100%", and "Enhancing Magic +100%" and see if you wouldn't have people complaining (rightly so) that too was OP.

Clearly enemy stats need to be dropped more, but their view was to make it so GEO was NOT mandatory for all content, and that's the way it SHOULD be.

[detlef]

GEO's not mandatory anymore?

[Nyarlko]

Because GEO's Mythic makes the job 100 times better than any other jobs mythic makes them?

How about you change BRD's, COR and RDM's Mythic to "Song Potency +100%", "Roll Potency +100%", and "Enhancing Magic +100%" and see if you wouldn't have people complaining (rightly so) that too was OP.

Clearly enemy stats need to be dropped more, but their view was to make it so GEO was NOT mandatory for all content, and that's the way it SHOULD be.

I can't actually think of any songs that Potency+100% would actually make them better than GEO bubbles.. >_>;; COR has quite a few unique effects on their rolls, so doubling those would definitely be dangerous.. TBH, RDM confuses me nowadays as far as how it should be used, so I'm not gonna comment on that one, but to be equal would have to include enfeebling/enhancing and maybe dark/healing in order to approach Idris' power level.

However... If all supports had a similar percentage potency boost, I don't see a problem since that would be "balanced". :3

[Songen]

so yeah, did anyone at all notice the boosts they made for brd, bard not only got more equipment with +1's on it, the main songs they have got boosted heavily and their caps raised, and the value of +1's increased further. with more equip added to give +1's for songs.brd's power just got taken up to a stage that brings it better than geomancer if you have galljahorn and daudablla. infact it should be as good if not better than idris for melee styles,.even if you lack those 2 and only have linos+2 augment/terpander with decent gear. You'll over power geo far more still in comparison to non-idris, geo still holds magic styles tho thats the points since they work with elements.

You don't need to weaken geo, this is a example what can be done if you actually try and make the game work for everyone. you now have geomancer for magic styles, and bard for melee styles. whats next is to get cor upto par in both melee/ranged/enhancing

People wanted reisei, escha, adoulin, all those things to be weakened, and they got it. they refuse to see it,monster hp, defence,attack,magic attack,magic defence,etc etc has all been weakened, people just haven't looked. i personally seen it and can't believe it just how much more weakened mobs are, honestly some mobs hp have droped like 20-30% and their magic evasion, magic defence,infact all skills droped by about the same. Pay attention, don't complain and actually look at what the update did, it did ALOT. massive really, only one thing that got missed out on in terms of weakening is high teir old content battles as far as i am aware.

[mekia]

It's sad that people got this changed will never do anything else then Ambuscade. Vex/Attune is basically useless now even on just Omen Bosses. Some of the Reisen HELM NM's are nearly impossible now. But of course the people who cried the loudest do not care or will ever make a Aeonic at all.

[Jakuk]

It's sad that people got this changed will never do anything else then Ambuscade. Vex/Attune is basically useless now even on just Omen Bosses. Some of the Reisen HELM NM's are nearly impossible now. But of course the people who cried the loudest do not care or will ever make a Aeonic at all.

And yet, people are still doing them with barely any real problem.

[Domille]

And yet, people are still doing them with barely any real problem.

LOL no. There is a SERIOUS problem.

No one is "doing them with barely any real problem". Everyone I talk to is having a DEFINITE problem now.

Or they're resorting to using summoner because summoner is extremely overpowered and broken right now with the constant stream of buffs and geo nerf.

[Zeargi]

LOL no. There is a SERIOUS problem.

No one is "doing them with barely any real problem". Everyone I talk to is having a DEFINITE problem now.

Or they're resorting to using summoner because summoner is extremely overpowered and broken right now with the constant stream of buffs and geo nerf.

SMN isn't "extremely overpowered and broken" Those numbers come from piling on BP DMG+/MAB. I can, also, bet there's a GEO in the mix to lower something. An undergeared/Underkilled SMN isn't going to do nearly that damage. >_> I've seen BLUs, DNC, and even a DRG all do amazing things, and that because they're well-geared.

[Domille]

Don't even try to pull the same shit.

SMN is the broken job now. period.

Just because you think it isn't, doesn't mean anything.

Geo was broken > everyone says "nuh uh!".

BLM was broken > everyone says "NUH UH!"

SMN is broken > your answer "nuh uh!"

Why is it that the people that play THF were the ONLY job in FFXI history that were willing to admit when their job was broken? It's pathetic you can't admit the obvious.

[Jakuk]

Don't even try to pull the same shit.

SMN is the broken job now. period.

Just because you think it isn't, doesn't mean anything.

Geo was broken > everyone says "nuh uh!".

BLM was broken > everyone says "NUH UH!"

SMN is broken > your answer "nuh uh!"

Why is it that the people that play THF were the ONLY job in FFXI history that were willing to admit when their job was broken? It's pathetic you can't admit the obvious.

Because like with BST and GEO people become over-reliant on said jobs to succeed.

[Zeargi]

Don't even try to pull the same shit.

SMN is the broken job now. period.

Just because you think it isn't, doesn't mean anything.

Geo was broken > everyone says "nuh uh!".

BLM was broken > everyone says "NUH UH!"

SMN is broken > your answer "nuh uh!"

Why is it that the people that play THF were the ONLY job in FFXI history that were willing to admit when their job was broken? It's pathetic you can't admit the obvious.

Because it's not broken, plain and simple. You can claim it all you want that it is, but it takes a crap ton of gear to make SMN work. You need to have BP- 1 and 2 for the first 2 time limits, and then Favor+ and Max Skill to go pass a 3rd Timer boundary (Which is still 21s per Rage). You also have to have BP DMG, MAB, MACC, ACC for your Pet depending on which Bloodpact you have to use. Then the MP to cast it and sustain it if you happen to have to switch out the Prep Gear for whatever other thing you might have to be doing. Not to mention the Fast Cast, MP+, Skill+ for Wards, and such. The only "broken thing" is the SMN Astral Conduit which can only be used every 45m-1h. It's people that don't play the job that have zero clue as to the real depth of what it takes to play it. The PUP PLD Auto can tank the Ambuscade Intense Mobs, does that mean it's broken? No, It means it's being played by someone that know how the job works.

[Secondplanet]

Don't even try to pull the same shit.

SMN is the broken job now. period.

Just because you think it isn't, doesn't mean anything.

Geo was broken > everyone says "nuh uh!".

BLM was broken > everyone says "NUH UH!"

SMN is broken > your answer "nuh uh!"

Why is it that the people that play THF were the ONLY job in FFXI history that were willing to admit when their job was broken? It's pathetic you can't admit the obvious.

Nice job avoiding BLU there c.c you know the job the solo's almost all content. But SMN come one seriously? our avatars die if directly attacked by NM's in a couple of hits unless we want to use a quasi tank gear setup then our avatars can take the extra hits but then our perp cost goes up for it. But just like others have pointed out the sheer amount of gear we have to have to pull off decent numbers is outlandish and our constant need to switch weapons for BP:rage types puts us at a disadvantage since we loose TP (if we have any) that could be used for Mykr.

SMN has also been ignored time and time again for our blood pact wards as most are not worth the mp as their are still stuck at their 75 caps Noctoshield anyone? (13 dmg phalanx woooo so over powered) We use to be the original party buffer job which got snatched away by SCH, We had Alexander which got nerfed to the point it became useless as they set the smn magic requirements to reach peek efficiency to a lvl that was impossible at the time and now that its achievable its useless for the cost, Odin we were told would be too powerful to have a instant death move that works on NM but then BLM got death.

This list can go on for quite some time as to the many flaws smn has and pointing out burst damage every 21-30secs isn't a fair comparison to anything as when we go all out like that our mp dwindles fast and using apogee drains it even faster.

[Domille]

Because like with BST and GEO people become over-reliant on said jobs to succeed.

Which is LITERALLY what people already started doing. I've seen 3 groups now relying on smn zerging schah because they can't beat it anymore without resorting to that.


Because it's not broken, plain and simple. You can claim it all you want that it is, but it takes a crap ton of gear to make SMN work. You need to have BP- 1 and 2 for the first 2 time limits, and then Favor+ and Max Skill to go pass a 3rd Timer boundary (Which is still 21s per Rage). You also have to have BP DMG. MAB, MACC, ACC for your Pet depend on which Bloodpact you have to use. Then the MP to cast it and sustain it if you happen to have to switch out the Prep Gear for whatever other thing you might have to be doing. Not to mention the Fast Cast, MP+, Skill+ for Wards, and such. The only "broken thing" is the SMN Astral Conduit which can only be used every 45m-1h. It's people that don't play the job that have zero clue as to the real depth of what it takes to play it. The PUP PLD Auto can tank the Ambuscade Intense Mobs, does that mean it's broken? No, It means it's being played by someone that know how the job works.

You answered yourself. Lets not forget the EXACT reason bst was nerfed is because of the 2hour abuse with revitalizers, guess what, thats what the smns are doing. Conduit > kill mob > abyssea > conduit > kill mob > abyssea.


Nice job avoiding BLU there c.c you know the job the solo's almost all content. But SMN come one seriously? our avatars die if directly attacked by NM's in a couple of hits unless we want to use a quasi tank gear setup then our avatars can take the extra hits but then our perp cost goes up for it. But just like others have pointed out the sheer amount of gear we have to have to pull off decent numbers is outlandish and our constant need to switch weapons for BP:rage types puts us at a disadvantage since we loose TP (if we have any) that could be used for Mykr.

SMN has also been ignored time and time again for our blood pact wards as most are not worth the mp as their are still stuck at their 75 caps Noctoshield anyone? (13 dmg phalanx woooo so over powered) We use to be the original party buffer job which got snatched away by SCH, We had Alexander which got nerfed to the point it became useless as they set the smn magic requirements to reach peek efficiency to a lvl that was impossible at the time and now that its achievable its useless for the cost, Odin we were told would be too powerful to have a instant death move that works on NM but then BLM got death.

This list can go on for quite some time as to the many flaws smn has and pointing out burst damage every 21-30secs isn't a fair comparison to anything as when we go all out like that our mp dwindles fast and using apogee drains it even faster.

Blu is beating a dead horse it's going to get nerfed, no point even bringing it up.

Different things are broken for different reasons, and smn burning has gotten overbuffed. I dont care about their bad wards. It's the conduit damage that is broken. If smn does as much damage as a BST then SMN range needs to be nerfed or BST range reverted.

[Zeargi]

Which is LITERALLY what people already started doing. I've seen 3 groups now relying on smn zerging schah because they can't beat it anymore without resorting to that.

Oh please... That's just people being unimaginative. It's no different than when peopled claimed that the old Promy fights could only be won with SMNs, when people just took an alliance of SMN for Waking the Beast, or SMN for PD for ADL,. Things can be beaten, people just choose to be lazy.


You answered yourself. Lets not forget the EXACT reason bst was nerfed is because of the 2hour abuse with revitalizers, guess what, thats what the smns are doing. Conduit > kill mob > abyssea > conduit > kill mob > abyssea.

There's still a limit on the amount of Cruor even with the Copper Vouchers, and there's a simple solution: make the item only be allowed for purchase once a day. It's still not going to stop people from finding CORs to resest the abilities like they used to (Or is that broken too?). Again, even if they did do that, an underskill/geared SMN isn't going to do all that great in 129+ stuff and miss a good chunk of the time. All the Avatars are BLMs, they don't get any super awesome mega trait that let's them beat the hell out of things. The only things they get are their natural PDT-, their Elemental type resistance, and MAB. No Double Attack. No Triple Attack, No Max HP Boost, No Evasion Bonus, No Accuracy Bonus, Nothing. The only exceptions are Carbuncle(Lowest ATT/DEF), Fenrir (Highest ATT), and Diabolos (Highest DEF.). Only three of the Avatars can heal themselves, and now with all of our BPs need TP of sorts, it means that healing for some of those are much weaker. The same applies to Astral Conduit and the BP done in rapid secession. Let's also talk about that Astral Conduit can also screw SMNs over, because if you don't let the BP at least hit, then the MP will already be taken. So, if you decide to spam the button and lose more MP then what you should.

Also, the reason why I put it in quotations is because all you people see are these high number and assume that it takes nothing to do. It's more than likely someone has maxed out the Astral Conduit AND the Astral Flow JP categories.



Different things are broken for different reasons, and smn burning has gotten overbuffed. I dont care about their bad wards. It's the conduit damage that is broken. If smn does as much damage as a BST then SMN range needs to be nerfed or BST range reverted.

Or, they could... I don't know... maybe fix BST and give it the Job Traits it deserves to have from the beginning? Also there are some BST that refuse to let go of that Axe, despite it being a major gimp. Even if they macroed in the non-ilvl Pants, they'd still be at 20 seconds for their recharge of Ready/Sic, 1 second faster than SMN. Should some of the things for BST be changed, absolutely: Reward, Fight, Stay, Heel. But it again goes back to the idiotic mentality of Nerf Everything, instead of fix the other jobs.

[detlef]

SMN is really strong. Maybe it takes a lot of gear to do it but that applies to every job. Hate-free damage and the pet itself doesn't need any buffs. That's pretty huge, especially in today's endgame. I'm not calling for a nerf or anything but the job is incredibly strong, useful, and safe.

It is pretty funny reading people share how the job's minor limitations are actually debilitating though.

[Ataraxia]

SMN is really strong. Maybe it takes a lot of gear to do it but that applies to every job. Hate-free damage and the pet itself doesn't need any buffs. That's pretty huge, especially in today's endgame. I'm not calling for a nerf or anything but the job is incredibly strong, useful, and safe.

It is pretty funny reading people share how the job's minor limitations are actually debilitating though.


It's true SMN mythic / master job is very strong and safe. If the set Party have Geo Idris SMN can do 99,999 dmg easily. At the moment they should look into Puppet Master because this job is far behind DD like Blu and Drg.

Akihiko Matsui and the team should look into making PUP pet a good DD. If a DD like Blue Mage with a set up like Geo Idris + Cor can WS 20,000 to 30,000 every 5 second than why can't Puppet Master Pet do at least 15,000 to 20,000 every 5 second? Currently, right now the damage is horrible.

Message for the Dev team I enjoy playing PUP and I am not asking to be number 1 like SMN who does 99,999 dmg but what I'm asking is make pup good enough so they can fight and be welcome in Party. For example if SMN is so good at doing 99,999 than why can't a pup do 15,000 to 30,000 pet ws dmg at least? Akihiko Matsui I hope you try out playing Pup and see what you can do to make this job decent.

[detlef]

PUP can tank though, that's something that SMN can't do. Both of those jobs are in a pretty stable place right now.

[Ataraxia]

PUP can tank though, that's something that SMN can't do. Both of those jobs are in a pretty stable place right now.


PUP can tank that's true but they can also DD with pet ranger but the damage is not good enough. SMN doing 99,999 dmg and they can summon as many pet as they want as long as they have MP.

I suppose you didn't know Blue Mage can tank too and they do tons of damage. They can fight Avatar on VD with the help of trust. I am a master pup and I can't fight avatar on VD even with trust. If somehow PUP use overdrive and manage to kill avatar by luck but I'm sure it won't be less than 3 minute. However, I can do that with Blue mage 3 minute or less.

I would prefer Pld and Run tank so PUP have other rolls in pt and if their no pld or run in sight than sure why not PUP can tank. I don't want to see any pet job nerf but I like to see improvement. If they keep thing as is and not improve other job along the way than SMN will be King of FFXI master of damage 99,999. In fact, it be so popular and i too might be a smn. Now that's not all smn can 4x or 5x 99,999 Astral Conduit can be done in less than 20 second. At this moment SMN is officially KING of FFXI. Beast master goodbye rest in piece... I'm sure it's their dream too to do 99,999 dmg during unleash. :/ SE need to make Warrior and Samurai awesome again.

[Domille]

Literally watching SMNs now burn everything.

Saw SMN burn Erynis yesterday.

SMN burn Schah yesterday.

SMN burn Albumen today.

SMN burn Zerde today.

SMN burn Onycphora was already a thing.

SMN burn kirin is already a popular tactic.

[Smokenttp]

PUP can tank that's true but they can also DD with pet ranger but the damage is not good enough. SMN doing 99,999 dmg and they can summon as many pet as they want as long as they have MP.

I suppose you didn't know Blue Mage can tank too and they do tons of damage. They can fight Avatar on VD with the help of trust. I am a master pup and I can't fight avatar on VD even with trust. If somehow PUP use overdrive and manage to kill avatar by luck but I'm sure it won't be less than 3 minute. However, I can do that with Blue mage 3 minute or less.

I would prefer Pld and Run tank so PUP have other rolls in pt and if their no pld or run in sight than sure why not PUP can tank. I don't want to see any pet job nerf but I like to see improvement. If they keep thing as is and not improve other job along the way than SMN will be King of FFXI master of damage 99,999. In fact, it be so popular and i too might be a smn. Now that's not all smn can 4x or 5x 99,999 Astral Conduit can be done in less than 20 second. At this moment SMN is officially KING of FFXI. Beast master goodbye rest in piece... I'm sure it's their dream too to do 99,999 dmg during unleash. :/ SE need to make Warrior and Samurai awesome again.

i was not even gonna touch this thread again but this will make me, i personaly did pretty close to that already and i was not even job master at the time ( in fact this screenshot is almost an year old and i had just obtained my 119 aymur) so this is the kind of thing that in my opinion need to change in this game,people pre judging a job before fully understanding game mechanincs, but since words might not be enough lets give photoproof:
https://scontent.fssz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13435537_10201889606518468_1435253256417580224_n.jpg?oh=ad515f306684ae013d108ed3b0e15747&oe=593930AC
this was in fact during unleash as i had only healing trusts in pt and ended up dead anyway + was the day that i actually sucessfuly discoverd and tested what 5 step double light/darkness can do in this game.What i did here was swooping frenzy (reverberation) > smash axe (induration)> swooping frenzy (fragmentation due to induration + reverberation)> Swooping frenzy (light due to fragmentation + fusion) > Pentapeck (double light), and altough the target of my little adventure isnt something "omg thats so hard" the point here is simply the damage of the closing ws(pentapeck)... 18k turned into 83k thats all that matters, why? because most DDs can do similar results with light/darkness weapon skills , some even more. wich could go into a resolution debate but tbh its kinda pointless becasue resolution is in the exact same place leaden salute is: can dish out insane amounts of damage but can never reach an double light/darkness(and before you bring lionheart up keep in mind the weapon is rune fencer only meaning its not in a natural DD job), also even tough i have the potential to do this alone ffxi is still an party game meaning you can and should work out togther to produce skill chains but most of the pug DDs you get can only mesure their epeen instead of focus on the objective of taking down the foe before then, so instead of working together to produce similar results what you get is dps comprassion to see "who did more damge / i did my work better then you". (as a side note at the same time the magic burst system was upgraded so did the skill chain one (also the skill chain multiplier is bigger then the magic burst multiplier so this result was built in the game from a long time now to balance it out)).

edit: altough i sound a bit harsh please do not take this as a personal offense as i had a rough day so i might have been a bit overboard but i will not reedit the original post too much to kinda get my point across

[Zeargi]

PUP can tank that's true but they can also DD with pet ranger but the damage is not good enough. SMN doing 99,999 dmg and they can summon as many pet as they want as long as they have MP.
At this moment SMN is officially KING of FFXI. Beast master goodbye rest in piece...

First off, I'm calling BS on this for the simple fact that PUP has Dues Ex Automata. While SMN can replace out pets more quickly, they are way frailer than the PUP's Auto and the Auto can be buffed with the right head attached. But simply put: Deus -> Auto-Regen to Full -> Dismiss and you can summon a fresh auto with all it's HP, MP, near to no burden, and all the JA attachments ready to use instantly. >_> as for BST resting in piece, SE didn't change the DMG, just the range. BST is annoy as hell to play, but it is still VERY MUCH a power-house. I also have watched CORs deal out a crap ton of DMG from the safety of ranged as well, and yet no one bats an eye. Things are very much possible with a lot of jobs, you just have to have the right tools to do it.

[Ataraxia]

Literally watching SMNs now burn everything.

Saw SMN burn Erynis yesterday.

SMN burn Schah yesterday.


SMN burn Albumen today.

SMN burn Zerde today.

SMN burn Onycphora was already a thing.

SMN burn kirin is already a popular tactic.


That's good you notice something too and I"m glad I am not the only one. Pup can't do nothing to those NM because many elite leader would prefer to have Rune Fencer Gambit or Rayke for magic burst over having a PUP.

[Ataraxia]

First off, I'm calling BS on this for the simple fact that PUP has Dues Ex Automata. While SMN can replace out pets more quickly, they are way frailer than the PUP's Auto and the Auto can be buffed with the right head attached. But simply put: Deus -> Auto-Regen to Full -> Dismiss and you can summon a fresh auto with all it's HP, MP, near to no burden, and all the JA attachments ready to use instantly. >_> as for BST resting in piece, SE didn't change the DMG, just the range. BST is annoy as hell to play, but it is still VERY MUCH a power-house. I also have watched CORs deal out a crap ton of DMG from the safety of ranged as well, and yet no one bats an eye. Things are very much possible with a lot of jobs, you just have to have the right tools to do it.


I suppose you didn't know SMN pet can tank too? Ever heard of Dawn Mulsum if your inventory can handle it than that's the way to go spam and spam so your pet don't die. If one resort to using many Dawn Mulsum that just show the battle is a tough one. I'm surprise this is even allow to happen for so long because Bst, Smn can also tank too.

From my personal experience SMN is probably the best pet job in game. The reason for that is simple DD love smn because it can buffer party and protect them from getting one shot by NM using Titan Earthen Armor. Pup and Bst can't protect others but only help itself survive bad situation. Pup need some support and adjustment to make it so their pet do decent amount of damage. I'm not asking for PUP to be like SMN doing 5x 99,999 with astral conduit in less than 20 second. There has to be something better for Pup than doing 5k to 7k Armor Shatterer.

[Zeargi]

I suppose you didn't know SMN pet can tank too? Ever heard of Dawn Mulsum if your inventory can handle it than that's the way to go spam and spam so your pet don't die. If one resort to using many Dawn Mulsum that just show the battle is a tough one. I'm surprise this is even allow to happen for so long because Bst, Smn can also tank too.

From my personal experience SMN is probably the best pet job in game. The reason for that is simple DD love smn because it can buffer party and protect them from getting one shot by NM using Titan Earthen Armor. Pup and Bst can't protect others but only help itself survive bad situation. Pup need some support and adjustment to make it so their pet do decent amount of damage. I'm not asking for PUP to be like SMN doing 5x 99,999 with astral conduit in less than 20 second. There has to be something better for Pup than doing 5k to 7k Armor Shatterer.

Yeah, I actually know the item because I can make it, and you seem to know that it doesn't stack, which means that it's not a good stratagem to use... Like, at all for SMN. And that's one of the reason it's allowed, which means that it's also not exclusive to just SMN/BST. PUP, DRG, and maybe GEO can also use the Dawn Mulsum. Also, no one said that BST couldn't tank... again, the only thing that's changed is the range. You also don't seem to understand that Earthen Armor won't save you if the DMG received is still greater than the overall HP remaining. The only ability that completely negates that kind of DMG is NIN's Migawari. And as for not helping other's, I'm again calling BS - The WHM Auto can be a very competent healer, can remove lots of statues from itself without the need for MP, Buff the Entire party with Protectra/Shellra/Haste/Etc., and can have Near Infinite MP through lots of means. The PLD Frame can take a beating and has provoke to control enmity, not mention is has an attachment that can act the same as Earthen Armor. You can give your Auto: Meditate, Customize 90% of it job traits, and it can use not only the Dawn Mulsum, but repair oils to keep it alive. It has access to Benediction, Invincible, Chainspells, Eagle Eye Shot, and Mighty Strike (Manafont as well, but that is kind of stupid because Auto have near infinite MP anyway). BST is a bit more limited on it's aid for others, but can stun/amnesia enemies and heal party members with select pets. They only thing I'll agree with you on is that the Automatons haven't gotten a major boost to their WS and all of them could use some type of new one to catch up to players.

[Domille]

I know this isn't really the best place to put this but it'd directly related, and already been touched on.

Every. Single. Shout. and Every. Single. Event shell. Is now using Summoner instead of actually putting in effort. (Asura)

it's kinda pathetic. And this is a serious screw up.

Every single "difficult" thing is but being conduit burned. This is a problem.

[Secondplanet]

I know this isn't really the best place to put this but it'd directly related, and already been touched on.

Every. Single. Shout. and Every. Single. Event shell. Is now using Summoner instead of actually putting in effort. (Asura)

it's kinda pathetic. And this is a serious screw up.

Every single "difficult" thing is but being conduit burned. This is a problem.

Well this is funny as i'm on Asura as well and almost every shout of OMEN i see isn't shouting for smn and the random UNM shouts is see again most times no smn....... The jobs i see shouted for the most are the obvious PLD, WHM, GEO, BRD and maybe SCH/BLM but i see more shouts asking for either BLU or DD more then i see for SMN.

[saevel]

Well their using AC SMN's because the other methods simply aren't very reliable anymore. SE nerfed Focus / Langour and the result is that mage strategies struggle because SE didn't think their update through. Your supposed to use Frazzle III + Threnody but many NM's are either immune to the effects, or spam self erases so your ES / Troub is wasted and you can't get it back on because ... it's magic evasion is too high to begin with. This is the exact same situation melee's were in originally, when the NM's had 2000+ evasion. Now that SE *fixed* Focus / Langour they need to go back through the NM's are reduce their evasion, remove their self erase, and remove their immunities to magic evasion down / dark magic / ect. Otherwise your kinda playing a roulette when you fight them, or you can just low man AC burn stuff down with an army of Nirvana SMN's.

[Khiril]

Well this is funny as i'm on Asura as well and almost every shout of OMEN i see isn't shouting for smn and the random UNM shouts is see again most times no smn....... The jobs i see shouted for the most are the obvious PLD, WHM, GEO, BRD and maybe SCH/BLM but i see more shouts asking for either BLU or DD more then i see for SMN.

UNM and OMEN are not "Difficult".

Every. Single. "difficult" thing. aka aeonic is 100% Conduit Burned now. The JP know it, they're complaining already, enjoy your nerf, SMNs.

[Secondplanet]

UNM and OMEN are not "Difficult".

Every. Single. "difficult" thing. aka aeonic is 100% Conduit Burned now. The JP know it, they're complaining already, enjoy your nerf, SMNs.

So with that mindset PLD and WHM need nerfs, its not fair that every end game fight they want a PLD only for tanking and they have to be A/O to get in which also means A/O needs nerfing as well, as for WHM its needs nerfing cause its not fair that they give the best heals and general well being for the party. What cause of the GEO rebalancing everyone wants COR well nerf away SE cause it not fair that COR buffs don't cost MP right?

Your argument is flimsy at most as thinking SMN's are the be all end all isn't a reliable source since it takes both our 1hrs, Nirvana is always wanted and Master to boot, i even heard of groups demanding complete Apogee +1, But even with all of that in mind we can only do it once every 45 mins maybe sooner if the COR gets lucky and for a group to expect SMN's to always have revitalizers on hand and ready means revitalizers are the issue not SMN.

[Khiril]

Uh no, RUN and PUP are both perfectly capable tanks. The balance between all 3 is relatively equal. *relatively*. PUP needs more enmity generation tools.

I'd love to tell you what I really think about your post, but the mods love to ban for telling the truth.

Astral Conduit is already being complained about by the JP side, it literally doesn't matter what your or my opinion is, it's getting adjusted.

I am right, you are wrong, end of discussion.

[Jakuk]

I'd love to tell you what I really think about your post, but the mods love to ban for telling the truth.

I am right, you are wrong, end of discussion.

Judging by that last comment I can see why.

[Zeargi]

I'd love to tell you what I really think about your post, but the mods love to ban for telling the truth.

Astral Conduit is already being complained about by the JP side, it literally doesn't matter what your or my opinion is, it's getting adjusted.

I am right, you are wrong, end of discussion.

Alright, then go make a video right now. Show us your SMN's gear, Skill, JP, everything. I want you to pick a fight with the hardest of hard NMs. Show us this 99999 DMG without the aid of a GEO with Astral Conduit. Your claim is that anyone can just pick up SMN and do it right out of the box... Then prove it. I want to see you do it. I want to see if you miss a single multi-hit BP, if you do anything less than 90k it's unacceptable. And instead of trying to bring people down, offer better solutions as to what can bring the other jobs up. But in then end, you don't play SMN religiously like many other have and you have no clue. This game is at the end of it's life cycle, why do you want to constantly call for witch hunts and nerfs? PUP could use a boost in DMG, I'm not arguing that. But the real issue is the overall mechanics for the other mage jobs and the extreme AoEs that floor melees. SMN isn't the issue, it's the NMs themselves.

[Nyarlko]

Astral Conduit is already being complained about by the JP side, it literally doesn't matter what your or my opinion is, it's getting adjusted.

The part I bolded is unfortunately pretty accurate. :( If I didn't know already how much of a trainwreck Google Translation is (especially between language families) I'd probably be posting up an awkwardly worded storm over on the JP side here. My spoken/heard Japanese is decent, I know hiragana/katakana, but I'm below 2nd grader level when it comes to kanji. lol orz

There are incoming adjustments for the top level stuff, so SMN burns will probably cool down once we're actually back to status quo on meva/macc.