DW vs 2h jobs is nearly perfectly balanced

[Shiyo]

For the first time in FFXI history both 2h and DW jobs, and even SINGLE WIELD(fencer warrior) are finally all within 5-10% of eachother! The balance is great!

However, if you keep buffing 2h jobs, it's just going to go back to the old days of 2h only. All three of the weapon types(fencer, dw, 2h) have their niches and are all around equally useful and good. The new grip from Omen called "Utu grip" with the stats listed below is completely insane:

HP+70 Accuracy+30 Attack+30 Weapon skill DEX +10%


This grip might change things and make 2h the default choice for DD again, though, which isn't good. Yes, the grip adds a 10% dex modifier to all your WS when equipped.

Please stop buffing 2h jobs. They do not need anymore buffs, they are perfectly fine how they are. The player base is just very slow at catching on to how powerful jobs actually are.


Sincerely, a 2h job main player.

edit: I forgot h2h jobs exist.

[BBWallace]

Oh please. FIX VICTORY SMITE.

Just because your 2h weapon does good don't speak for the other jobs.

[saevel]

For the first time in FFXI history both 2h and DW jobs, and even SINGLE WIELD(fencer warrior) are finally all within 5-10% of eachother! The balance is great!

However, if you keep buffing 2h jobs, it's just going to go back to the old days of 2h only. All three of the weapon types(fencer, dw, 2h) have their niches and are all around equally useful and good. The new grip from Omen called "Utu grip" with the stats listed below is completely insane:

HP+70 Accuracy+30 Attack+30 Weapon skill DEX +10%


This grip might change things and make 2h the default choice for DD again, though, which isn't good. Yes, the grip adds a 10% dex modifier to all your WS when equipped.

Please stop buffing 2h jobs. They do not need anymore buffs, they are perfectly fine how they are. The player base is just very slow at catching on to how powerful jobs actually are.


Sincerely, a 2h job main player.


No they aren't balanced but their not that far apart either.

The primary difference is not the jobs but the Weapon Skills available to each Weapon Type. Some weapon types have weapon skills that can easily be exploited and buffed while others are difficult and lack such weapon skills. Different jobs have access to different weapon types and this means that whichever job can exploit a weapon type can use that exploit for damage, if the job isn't able to exploit a weapon skill then it's stuck at the end of the line.

Weapon types with Exploitable Weapon Skills

Sword (several exploitable WS's)
Dagger (several exploitable WS's)
Great Sword (Resolution)
Axe (Mistral / Cloud Splitter)
Marksmanship (Leaden, Trueflight, Last Stand)
Polearm (Stardiver)
Katana (Ten / Hi / Shun)
Club (Judgement, Black Halo, Hexa, Realmrazor)

Weapon types without Exploitable Weapon Skills

Great Axe
Scythe
H2H
Great Katana (SAM's can link them and exploit SC bonus's though so they sidestep the issue)
Staff

This creates the situation where SAM and DRG are good but WAR and DRK are stuck. Now WAR can use many different weapon types which enables it to sidestep the issue and use something other then Great Axe. DRK on the other hand is screwed as they only have Great Sword and Scythe as viable options, meaning they are on Great Sword only. MNK and PUP are just screwed as they only have H2H or Staff and neither has exploitable WS's so they must work really hard to get mediocre results.

What people want isn't a "job balance" as the weaker Weapon Types to be fixed so that more options are available to accomplish approximately the same result. Fix both Great Axe and Scythe WS's, leave Great Sword and Polearm alone. Possibly make Retribution or Full Swing have much better TP multipliers, make Victory Smite copy fTP like many of the other WS's do. That is what people want and it seems that SE is doing something similar with the gear being released.

[Shiyo]

Scythe is perfectly fine. I don't get why it's considered bad.

Great axe is bad, that's true. Actually, it isn't bad, it's downright AWFUL.

Hand to hand I have no personal experience with.

2h weapons overall are great and perform within 5-10% of 1h.

[saevel]

Scythe is perfectly fine. I don't get why it's considered bad.

Great axe is bad, that's true. Actually, it isn't bad, it's downright AWFUL.

Hand to hand I have no personal experience with.

2h weapons overall are great and perform within 5-10% of 1h.

Took me awhile to respond sorry.

Great Axe is better off then Scythe as Upheaval, Ukko's both do good damage along with having several stat lowering "break" WS's. Scythe has ... Entropy and .... maybe CR ... and that's it. There is no powerful Scythe WS, they all have some really bad aspect that prevents them from being exploited into really high damage regimes.

So if you think Great Axe is "downright awful' then Scythe by definition must be worse then awful. Making Entropy STR based, Raising Insurgency to 50/50 and raising the fTP anchor points on CR are what's needed for Scythe.

[Smokenttp]

well, i agree a bit on the exploitable ws thing but in my view what needs to be done is check wich weapons skills that can perform radiance and umbra are doing bad and change then acordingly, the way i currently see square aproching this issue is by introducing strong equipment that a few jobs can use, altough this kinda solves the issue it generates another wich is the said equipment becames mandatory for X job to perform well, and then this will lower the "player population playing ceratain jobs" accordingly to how hard it is to get said gear and that is why i dont like this aproach. Why i sugested the radiance/umbra weapon skills is because they are the same used for 5 step double light/darkness ones and its about the damn time that people start to learn in parties how the skill chain system actually works in this game before judging if a job sucks or is strong. or if they actually want to keep the equipment trend rolling they need to at least put in acessible intermediate gear with helpfull status to help people grabing the stronger options without being forced to join the blu bandwagon just to get inside parties

[Obysuca]

Scythe is perfectly fine. I don't get why it's considered bad.


It's considered bad when you can have a better scythe than your current gs, but your scythe ws only do ~5k while your gs consistently gets 15k+ >_>



Scythe has ... Entropy and .... maybe CR ... and that's it. There is no powerful Scythe WS, they all have some really bad aspect that prevents them from being exploited into really high damage regimes.


I really hope they do buff scythe ws, especially since it seems SE keeps trying to force scythe on drk lately (oboro, aeonic, escha ru'an etc). There's far easier to get scythes at this point than a gs, if you don't have a bunch of really good geared people to do t2/t3 Reisenjima.


But let's talk about the real problem, h2h... lol

[saevel]

It's considered bad when you can have a better scythe than your current gs, but your scythe ws only do ~5k while your gs consistently gets 15k+ >_>




I really hope they do buff scythe ws, especially since it seems SE keeps trying to force scythe on drk lately (oboro, aeonic, escha ru'an etc). There's far easier to get scythes at this point than a gs, if you don't have a bunch of really good geared people to do t2/t3 Reisenjima.


But let's talk about the real problem, h2h... lol

Yeah H2H is suffering even worse the Scythe for the same reasons. VS needs to have the copy fTP mechanic that they gave CDC, HF/TK/RF needs their WSC adjusted and possibly TP anchor points raised. For Scythe, Entropy needs to not-be-INT, though the DRK +3 AF set helps a ton, it still limits the hell out of your gear options. Cross Reaper can get powerful but only past 2000TP, it's TP anchor points need to be raised such that it's 2K power is at 1 ~ 1.5K, Insurgency needs the mods raised to 50/50 and Quietus just needs it's TP mod adjusted to be more potent at lower TP values. Basically Scythe WS's only shine when your sitting at over 2000TP, but by then many other WS types would of done two WS's already.

[Songen]

For the first time in FFXI history both 2h and DW jobs, and even SINGLE WIELD(fencer warrior) are finally all within 5-10% of eachother! The balance is great!

However, if you keep buffing 2h jobs, it's just going to go back to the old days of 2h only. All three of the weapon types(fencer, dw, 2h) have their niches and are all around equally useful and good. The new grip from Omen called "Utu grip" with the stats listed below is completely insane:

HP+70 Accuracy+30 Attack+30 Weapon skill DEX +10%


This grip might change things and make 2h the default choice for DD again, though, which isn't good. Yes, the grip adds a 10% dex modifier to all your WS when equipped.

Please stop buffing 2h jobs. They do not need anymore buffs, they are perfectly fine how they are. The player base is just very slow at catching on to how powerful jobs actually are.


Sincerely, a 2h job main player.

edit: I forgot h2h jobs exist.

its strange, you failed to realise this grip is actually near useless to 95% of 2handed WSs with the exception it adds more acc, what it does is modify dex ON WSs.

~Dimidation ,
~geirskogul,
~half of sonic thrust
Are out of the higher teir WSs the only ones that get dmg modified by this grip.

one thing you failed to realise is 2handed weapons were always ment to deal more damage than 1 handed weapons, yet nowadays they deal less damage than one handed weapons depending on your setup. not only that, most 1 handed weapons which can be dual weilded build tp far more faster than ever due to triple attack/double attack/store tp gear and have a higher accuracy rateing depending on your job if you off hand a acc weapon.

don't complain about that jobs that are suppose to deal more damage than 1handed weapons shouldn't be buffed further when they are actually weaker atm and the one piece of evidence you have ("Utu grip") doesn't does nothing what so ever for the absolute majority of 2 handed DD jobs.

[detlef]

Pretty sure that grip adds a 10% DEX modifier even if the WS didn't have one already.

[Khiril]

Stop. Deleting. My. Post.


Increases WS DEX modifiers by 10%.
Adds a 10% DEX modifier to WS's that do not have them to begin with.

[Songen]

To the poeple who commented after my post. you guys are right, which makes my post about not affecting 95% of weaponskills obsolete

However in regards to this thread specificly, its not a game changer. if you look at some of the weaponskills out there, all this does is make those jobs with decent WS dmg better (Bringing it closer to where it needs to be, but not quite there) and the rest of the weapon skills a little more better.

[Shiyo]

Seems 2h DD's have outpaced and pretty much replaced DW jobs. I was afraid this would happen. Please do not further buff 2h DD's or give them more obscene gear.

(savage blade is the only thing keeping DW jobs relevant)

[Zetaking]

i dont know the dagger weaponskills pretty boss atm just most people cant make dnc sing, and thfs... well that th only stigma is still with them.... blade shun is also really powerful if you have the support to get over the attack penalty, the main issue is how much stronger reso is than any other dw or 2hander weaponskill. I mean seriously war drk rune(lion) are pretty much the top 3 dds all because of reso.

[Shiyo]

Blade: Shun has a BONUS attack attribute, not attack penalty.

[saevel]

Read up on pDiff and Ratio caps and how they are different for the different class's of weapons. Then look at Sword, Dagger and Axe WS's fTP's in comparison to Great Sword, Great Axe, Scythe and Polearm. There is a balance to how these are implemented and it's a pretty damn good one. The only weapon class hurting is H2H and that's because it has all the negatives of both 2H and 1H without any of the benefits, plus the WS's are weak.

[Shiyo]

Yeah, 2h weapons have higher max pdif caps and thus will always do more damage when fully buffed than 1h jobs.
1h jobs are dead, savage blade is the only thing keeping them worth using.

[saevel]

1h jobs are dead, savage blade is the only thing keeping them worth using.

This is incorrect, so incorrect that it's humerus.

1H jobs tend to have higher fTP and better multi-hits, while 2H jobs tend to have lower fTP and multi-hits. The difference in attack cap ends up with both approximately the same in damage with minor things favoring one over the other. It's funny you mention Savage Blade because the only job that's king for is COR and only due to that TP Bonus +1000 Gun they can get, otherwise CDC is much stronger on BLU. Savage Blade at 1000TP is low damage and requires TP Bonus stacking to get competitive while CDC is the exact opposite, starting out competitive and TP Bonus doing very little but multi-hit stacking doing a lot. Also for BLU DEX is a better mod then STR. There are a few other WS's in the same category as Savage Blade, they are Mistral Axe, Judgment, Rudra's Storm, Mandalic Stab, Upheaval, Cross Reaper, King's Justice, Blade: Ten and probably a few more. Then there are WS's like CDC, Resolution, Stardiver, Vorpal Blade, Evisceration, and so forth that you stack multi-hit and WSC. And then we get to the real meat of today's damage meta, skillchains are incredibly potent when exploited. I use my Great Axe and Scythe far more then my Great Sword in groups content nowadays.

[Shiyo]

If you want a discussion, please do not be condescending in every post you make.

[Urmom]

Savage blade is better single wielding for war. Rdm and blu both have access to CDC which will often be better.

Rudra's post nerf is still quite strong

Often overlooked because lol ddbst but cloudsplitter and Mistral axe is pretty much on par with savage blade. Though again single wielding can be a lot better for those. Rampage is quite strong though

Clubs are... nice when you want to do blunt dmg lol. Judgment is kind of like a worse savage blade