Catch up mechanics for omen 20 hour lockout?

[Shiyo]

I feel that some of the best gear in the game bar none coming from a form of content with a strict 20 hour lockout timer might cause a huge issue. Especially since you'll feel greatly encouraged to do this content every single day or you'll fall behind due to the 20 hour lockout timer, eventually burn yourself out, and not want to do it anymore.

It's going to be a really huge problem, and going to be as bad as every other MMO where if you don't cap your tomes...I mean do your omen for the day you'll eventually fall behind on gear.

Can there be some kind of catch up mechanic? Or have the KI stack? Or if you miss a day you can get 2 KI's the next day, 3 the day after, 4 the next, stacking up to 9999 perhaps? Or like voidstones/traverser stones that keep stacking up forever, or assault tags(with no limit though!) etc.

Anything to make us not have to do this every single day?

I do not like design that tells you "you have to do this every time the lock out timer is over or you just screwed yourself over for x amount of days and are forever behind everyone."

We should be able to play the game at our own leisure and not feel the need to do a certain form of content every single day because you can only do it once every 20 hours and it drops such insane gear in comparison to ANYTHING else in the entire game.

Please add some type of catch up mechanic that allows you to "skip" days but not be punished for not doing the content every single day.

[Vae]

Not going to get any sympathy on this one.

[BBWallace]

the once a day thing it stupid it doesn't work in this day in age. Its to late to try to change this back to 2006 SE.

[Nyarlko]

Haven't even done the event and complaining already ><;;; It's a daily thing. If you miss a day, you lose out on only that one day's worth of possible loot. I'm more likely to gripe about what appears to be the cost for these things.... We may be looking at a bare minimum 1.1mil purchase (from guild npcs) per upgrade, not including crafter fees >_>;;;;;; I'll complain later after I do my runs w/ LS if it turns out to be true. Will hold my tongue till then at least tho. XD

[PristineChicken]

A system like the old Assault one where you can store up uses might be nice, or store up KIs, say, up to five, but only be able to purchase one per JPM, would be acceptable.

Nya-chan's right tho.

[Shiyo]

It's a daily thing. If you miss a day, you lose out on only that one day's worth of possible loot.
That's literally the point.

[PristineChicken]

That's literally the point.

There need to be rewards for actively playing the game every day. Otherwise, the "hard core" players get nothing over the "casual" ones for putting in more effort.

[Shiyo]

There need to be rewards for actively playing the game every day. Otherwise, the "hard core" players get nothing over the "casual" ones for putting in more effort.
That doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand. The issue is that if you do not do your omen every single day, you'll fall behind, even if you play 10 hours a day.

Feeling forced to do something every single day isn't fun and leads to burn out. A system to store the KI for later use(like almost all other content in the game) would be perfect.

[PristineChicken]

That doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand. The issue is that if you do not do your omen every single day, you'll fall behind, even if you play 10 hours a day.

That is exactly the point, though. The disagreement is that we think it's okay, you don't.

[BBWallace]

I don't even care about that. I'm more pressed over the fact that we can can only do it once a day and only get reward for the job we go on. What about the jobs that don't get invited? Are we suppose to wait a month to gather enough cards to trade for 1 piece of equipment?

[PristineChicken]

I don't even care about that. I'm more pressed over the fact that we can can only do it once a day and only get reward for the job we go on. What about the jobs that don't get invited? Are we suppose to wait a month to gather enough cards to trade for 1 piece of equipment?

We can trade them 10:1, but that means it's gonna take 70 cards for some of these pieces if you have to do the trading.

[Urmom]

Have content you can do as much as you want complain it's too much of a grind and having to do it everyday and you'd burn out. Time gate it complain about having to do it everyday and be burned out.... regardless of the system they are going to make it so you can't complete it super fast except maybe in good groups that go far

[Shiyo]

Have content you can do as much as you want complain it's too much of a grind and having to do it everyday and you'd burn out. Time gate it complain about having to do it everyday and be burned out.... regardless of the system they are going to make it so you can't complete it super fast except maybe in good groups that go far

Yes, ambuscade and now omen both use awful systems.

@ SE.

Please allow us to stack up KI's to 999(or some number super high) so we can just go in when we feel like it and not lose a day if we simply do not feel like doing that content for that day.

[Nyarlko]

I don't even care about that. I'm more pressed over the fact that we can can only do it once a day and only get reward for the job we go on. What about the jobs that don't get invited? Are we suppose to wait a month to gather enough cards to trade for 1 piece of equipment?

Looks like yep. Before declaring that the sky is falling though, think back on how long it took many of us to get our relic armor in the old days... It could always be worse. ^^;;

[PristineChicken]

Looks like yep. Before declaring that the sky is falling though, think back on how long it took many of us to get our relic armor in the old days... It could always be worse. ^^;;

AF+1, too. At least as I remember it.

[Jin_Uzuki]

It's a daily thing.

Yes. We don't want Daily Thing. This not XIV.

[Jakuk]

Yes. We don't want Daily Thing. This not XIV.

Funny, not had a problem with most the other stuff they stole from FFXIV.

I'd rather daily and everyone get a chance, then as often as possible and people be blocked out. Like Ambuscade when it was first added.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Also lockout will make this event a nightmare on less populated servers cause less people to play and people can't redo it with their friends.

[Shiyo]

It becomes a chore.
You have to log on and do it today, or you miss out on a day!
Chores aren't fun.

[zataz]

too bad the pld +2 gear isn't worth anything not even a macro slot

[Zeargi]

too bad the pld +2 gear isn't worth anything not even a macro slot

What about the +3?

[BBWallace]

Lol this isn't the old days tho. You can't give people a quick way to do things for the past 6 years then suddenly start trying to switch it back to 2005.

[Nyarlko]

too bad the pld +2 gear isn't worth anything not even a macro slot

Don't think the intent is for us to upgrade once to +2, and then ignore the +3 upgrade. PLD body+3 has DT-11% on it which seems rather nice to me (as a non-PLD player.) Seems like a lot of the +3s are beating out NQ abj/reisen gear and have to be looked at very closely when compared to HQ abjs.. That indicates they are at the very least, far from worthless.


Lol this isn't the old days tho. You can't give people a quick way to do things for the past 6 years then suddenly start trying to switch it back to 2005.

And yet, that seems to be pretty close to the intentions of the dev team. They didn't like how everything has become back-to-back spammable 3-5min fights vs single NM targets. They missed dealing with small-fry mobs. They missed the idea of having to organize fellow players and schedule events. Given the clvl of what's inside, and the design/lockout of the entry/reward systems, I'd say they've succeeded in designing something that addresses those issues at least. ^^

I know my ls has more than a handful who were interested before the update in joining me regularly for this, and have a feeling that a lot more will want in once they wake up and read the patch notes. Having more than 6x people interested is not a bad thing, because we aren't going to bench someone who is geared for the clvl. It is possible to have more than one ls party running at the same time after all. Just takes teamwork. The 2nd "M" in MMO might just be making a comeback here whether you like it or not. I like it. ^^

[Jin_Uzuki]

People are not even asking for hand outs or soloable content, they are asking for good design. Daily lockouts:

- Makes harder for new people to catch up. Just ask anyone how does it feel to rank coalitions noways.
- Makes FFXI feel like a job. I need to log out and I need to to the event. If you don't, you are wasting you day. Every time you log you need to do the event or you are wasting your day.
- Makes super harder to play together for people, especially on small server. This is something a lot of FFXIV players know. One of the best things about FFXI (Even old one) was the ability for people to help. Now, if you do the content, you are out for the day. You can't help your friend catching up. The are server with 250 members online, do you realize how insane will be for some people to actually do this?

Lockouts don't help anyone. They don't help me, they don't help you. They only help the developers stretch content artificially and keep people subbed.


Having more than 6x people interested is not a bad thing, because we aren't going to bench someone who is geared for the clvl. It is possible to have more than one ls party running at the same time after all. Just takes teamwork. The 2nd "M" in MMO might just be making a comeback here whether you like it or not. I like it. ^^



That's nice, what do lockouts have to do with this?

[Urmom]

Actually lock outs are a way of making it so content doesn't get completed as fast without making you have to do it more and give some measure of equal rate between the diehards and semi casual. I can guarantee you some kind of tag system or free for all would come at some cost. Whether it be longer runs, lower droprates, harder content, worse gear etc.

Also wtf is this can't team up thing. Does anyone not remember all the 72 hour or conquest update lock out events... ya know the majority of content? That didn't stop people from teaming up instead it forced them to organize and plan to do it together. And a lot of those were locked behind missions that also took a bit of organization, lots of losses and months to complete. Also slow your roll chicken littles. People already have found rooms that give more KIs

[Kensagaku]

Honestly, I don't see the daily lockout as something to moan and complain about. You miss one day, and you're "behind"? If that was the case you'd be "behind" if you have a dozen jobs leveled since you either have a 10:1 conversion ratio or you have to go there on the job you want cards for, and you'd have a dozen times more work than the person who focuses on just one job. You'd be behind on the +3 train if you don't have the gil for upgrade materials or a party to get to the real bosses at the end. You'd be behind if you simply had bad luck or inferior gear that gets you killed rather than allowing you to succeed, wasting your day. Missing one day isn't going to suddenly put you behind everyone and anyone who wants to play, especially with the sheer number of cards that it will take to get the +3s (something like 50~70 per item, varying with item, iirc). This content's going to last for a long time between lockouts and item requirements, and missing one day isn't going to suddenly leave you crippled. The crowd of people is going to spread out quite easily; the "hardcore" players are going to finish it rapidly because they have top-tier gear and linkshells of skilled players to clear it repeatedly on the first attempt, while the "casual" players are going to solo at a relaxed pace with the goal of getting to the +2 at very least. Everyone else will fall somewhere between these two spots.

As for the "some jobs are going to get shafted," I mostly disagree. You can go in solo and with Trusts; I did so with DRG/SAM and handled almost all of the mobs just fine. The only reason I died was because I panicked at the time limit and tried to pull a handful of mobs for Sonic Thrust kills, but overdid it; poor planning on my part. Up until then, I had handled the Transcendent mobs quite easily, as well as the lesser adds. The only ones I'd see struggling are perhaps BRD and WHM, though they too can build melee sets, but it's sorta niche. Everything else has a form of modest damage generation, especially when paired with Trusts, so you can farm your cards solo no problem. The only thing you really need a party for is +3 building, and given that it takes the 50~70 cards mentioned above per item, people are going to be doing this for a while just to finish one item to +3 so interested parties should be available for a while yet.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Actually lock outs are a way of making it so content doesn't get completed as fast without making you have to do it more and give some measure of equal rate between the diehards and semi casual. I can guarantee you some kind of tag system or free for all would come at some cost. Whether it be longer runs, lower droprates, harder content, worse gear etc.

You are speaking like 99% of the game now doesn't have any lockout and works fine.





Also wtf is this can't team up thing.

Yes, can't team up. You know why? Because I did Omen, wiped, lost my KI, and now I'm locked out for 20 hours (not even JP midnight!). This means that yes, everyone will also have completely different lockouts.




Does anyone not remember all the 72 hour or conquest update lock out events... ya know the majority of content? That didn't stop people from teaming up instead it forced them to organize and plan to do it together. And a lot of those were locked behind missions that also took a bit of organization, lots of losses and months to complete. Also slow your roll chicken littles. People already have found rooms that give more KIs


You mean in 2005, where Dynamist took you a whole night, there were hnmls, there were people everywhere and FFXI had a player base of 500k? Yeah, I remember. I remember also the game being completely different in its execution. I don't remember servers with 250 people online.





As for the "some jobs are going to get shafted," I mostly disagree. You can go in solo and with Trusts; I did so with DRG/SAM and handled almost all of the mobs just fine. The only reason I died was because I panicked at the time limit and tried to pull a handful of mobs for Sonic Thrust kills, but overdid it; poor planning on my part. Up until then, I had handled the Transcendent mobs quite easily, as well as the lesser adds. The only ones I'd see struggling are perhaps BRD and WHM, though they too can build melee sets, but it's sorta niche. Everything else has a form of modest damage generation, especially when paired with Trusts, so you can farm your cards solo no problem. The only thing you really need a party for is +3 building, and given that it takes the 50~70 cards mentioned above per item, people are going to be doing this for a while just to finish one item to +3 so interested parties should be available for a while yet.

Did you even get to the boss?

[Kensagaku]

You are speaking like 99% of the game now doesn't have any lockout and works fine.

Yup, it totally works fine when you have free access to content and burn yourself out spamming them over and over with no cooldown. I totally didn't quit for six months because I ran out of things I hadn't done a full hundred plus times, nope.


Did you even get to the boss?

Did you even read my post? Like, most of it? I stated that you could farm cards on just about any job, as cards are not exclusively from bosses. I never once said anything about clearing the major bosses. That is something to be done with a party, and if you're so worried about different lockouts giving you a hard time, take a single day off, organize a static with some friends or people you meet online. Heck, even on the small servers you could shout (and this is speaking from a guy on Valefor). With even a couple hundred people on the server, it's unlikely that you won't find at least a handful of people with a 4-hour window overlapping your availability. With the number of cards it requires to get things done for just one job, this content is going to last a while and be in demand simply for the ability to upgrade artifact gear to pretty good levels for most jobs.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Yup, it totally works fine when you have free access to content and burn yourself out spamming them over and over with no cooldown. I totally didn't quit for six months because I ran out of things I hadn't done a full hundred plus times, nope.

Seems the issue is yours. Don't spam content? No one is forcing you. Create imaginary lockouts in your mind? "I'm doing an escha NM every 20 hours"?
I'm not sure how an event you can do 20 hours and can't even complete by yourself is going to revitalize your interest.


Did you even read my post? Like, most of it? I stated that you could farm cards on just about any job, as cards are not exclusively from bosses. I never once said anything about clearing the major bosses. That is something to be done with a party, and if you're so worried about different lockouts giving you a hard time, take a single day off, organize a static with some friends or people you meet online. Heck, even on the small servers you could shout (and this is speaking from a guy on Valefor). With even a couple hundred people on the server, it's unlikely that you won't find at least a handful of people with a 4-hour window overlapping your availability. With the number of cards it requires to get things done for just one job, this content is going to last a while and be in demand simply for the ability to upgrade artifact gear to pretty good levels for most jobs.

So you didn't. Cool. You wiped at normal enemies and can't even do boss, but you are OK with it. I'm not sure wiping at normal enemies and not completing the event is going to be a lot of people objective, however.


With even a couple hundred people on the server, it's unlikely that you won't find at least a handful of people with a 4-hour window overlapping your availability.

You are not looking at handful of people. You are looking for an handful of people who didn't do this before and doesn't plan to do it later with their friends and can do it and has the right jobs.

Anyone who did coil in FFXIV knows how lockout harmed that game, and it has like x10 the players FFXI.

[OmnysValefor]

Wow, the PLD +3 set is mediocre.

Legs for mp recovery. The set as a whole, including body, looks inferior to souv +1 and mostly inferior to nq in enmity, mitigating damage and max hp.

I'd probably use the body for midcast on some spells, maybe and PLD so rarely has mp issues.


Don't think the intent is for us to upgrade once to +2, and then ignore the +3 upgrade. PLD body+3 has DT-11% on it which seems rather nice to me (as a non-PLD player.) Seems like a lot of the +3s are beating out NQ abj/reisen gear and have to be looked at very closely when compared to HQ abjs.. That indicates they are at the very least, far from worthless.



And yet, that seems to be pretty close to the intentions of the dev team. They didn't like how everything has become back-to-back spammable 3-5min fights vs single NM targets. They missed dealing with small-fry mobs. They missed the idea of having to organize fellow players and schedule events. Given the clvl of what's inside, and the design/lockout of the entry/reward systems, I'd say they've succeeded in designing something that addresses those issues at least. ^^

I know my ls has more than a handful who were interested before the update in joining me regularly for this, and have a feeling that a lot more will want in once they wake up and read the patch notes. Having more than 6x people interested is not a bad thing, because we aren't going to bench someone who is geared for the clvl. It is possible to have more than one ls party running at the same time after all. Just takes teamwork. The 2nd "M" in MMO might just be making a comeback here whether you like it or not. I like it. ^^

[OmnysValefor]

Also, rewards being for the job you're on is really unfortunate design.

[Diavolo]

This is Ambuscade all over for me, where I think the introduction of new content is great, but it's execution could have been handled much better. This content looks to be designed to keep you grinding until the end of time and this is only reforged AF1. It's just too much.

[Urmom]

You are speaking like 99% of the game now doesn't have any lockout and works fine.
You are speaking like it didn't work fine before. Or that you can't just do that stuff when not doing omen



Yes, can't team up. You know why? Because I did Omen, wiped, lost my KI, and now I'm locked out for 20 hours (not even JP midnight!). This means that yes, everyone will also have completely different lockouts.No you can team up. You choose not to knowing it would be another 20 hours. That is completely on you



You mean in 2005, where Dynamist took you a whole night, there were hnmls, there were people everywhere and FFXI had a player base of 500k? Yeah, I remember. I remember also the game being completely different in its execution. I don't remember servers with 250 people online. Yeah and that's why this is an event with only 20 hours instead of 72-7 days and instead of being events with literally dozens of people per ls it's limited to a pt at most and even at that was designed that you can still farm a bit in small groups or even solo. It's almost like it's scaled to todays lower populations

[Urmom]

This content looks to be designed to keep you grinding until the end of time and this is only reforged AF1. It's just too much.
That's really more of a general game design goal. To keep us plugging and grinding away. They don't have the resources anymore for constant large amounts of content creation so are interested in creating content such that it wont be "beaten" for awhile to give them time to come up with something new. It's not something that is problem with specific content but is a by product of the state the game has been in for awhile and would expect it in some form from any content.

That said players learn and adapt and get better at farming things and often can end up outpacing the expectation and we've only had a handful of reports of people doing single runs. And heck some of them have already done full clears. People already found a free run room. I fully expect this to get figured out and people farming several cards a run or how to chain runs. I'm more concerned with the mats since so far looks like only from guild npc at a high price. Would be taking huge chunks of gil out of the economy millions at a time if no other source is found which will probably have a decent effect on player to player transactions/how people farm gil

[Jin_Uzuki]

You are speaking like it didn't work fine before. Or that you can't just do that stuff when not doing omen


Yeah and that's why this is an event with only 20 hours instead of 72-7 days and instead of being events with literally dozens of people per ls it's limited to a pt at most and even at that was designed that you can still farm a bit in small groups or even solo. It's almost like it's scaled to todays lower populations

I'm not sure why you still posting like it's 2005. Do you realize FFXI today is a completely different game?

Do you also go "woah, i wish there was a 10 hours lockout for every escha NM! That would be super!" Better ask them to add a 24 hours lockout to Ambu, this way they can stretch it a bit more, eh?


No you can team up. You choose not to knowing it would be another 20 hours. That is completely on you

No, I can't. You don't seem to understand how lockouts work. They severally limit player play-stile and the ability for people to help. They create a rigid-static enviroment in which people do not play with random, cannot help, cannot join because they only do that with their statics.

If I see a shout for Delve or Vagary, I can join even if I have no interest for it. Literally anyone who has time can (and the jobs required) can. There is nothing stopping me of doing that. Why? Because I can still do Delve or Vagary with my LS. I did a Vagary run today that I didn't need. If Vagary was on lockout, I wouldn't have done it since it would have locked me out from playing with people later.

I'm not sure why people even defend lockouts. You don't want to get burned out? Don't do it! No one is forcing you to spam events.

And don't give me stuff like "the droprateee" when you can get any Escha set or Ambu set at your pace nowdays. You can get Ambu sets in one day!

[Vae]

This is Ambuscade all over for me, where I think the introduction of new content is great, but it's execution could have been handled much better. This content looks to be designed to keep you grinding until the end of time and this is only reforged AF1. It's just too much.

Well, 300 cards for one jobs af+3 so, count on the servers not going down for at least 3 years. I guess that's a plus.

I however, don't have any intentions of doing this content every day . When the lockout is gone I'll care. But I'm not going to debate the validity of the 1/day mechanic, it's archaic, but I know exactly why it's there.

[Diavolo]

That's really more of a general game design goal. To keep us plugging and grinding away. They don't have the resources anymore for constant large amounts of content creation so are interested in creating content such that it wont be "beaten" for awhile to give them time to come up with something new. It's not something that is problem with specific content but is a by product of the state the game has been in for awhile and would expect it in some form from any content.

While it's true that the devs should be aiming to design content to keep us interested enough to keep logging in every month, grinding one particular content type ad nauseam is a terrible approach to that goal. They are a skeleton crew, but they are a skeleton crew working with 14 years worth of content, some of which can be easily updated with little effort in order to lessen the burden of creating new content.

I prefer the idea of collecting the Omen entry KI on a timer, like Abyssea and Voidwatch, to being stuck behind a 20 hour wait between entries. I mean, even a JP midnight wait is preferable to what's currently in place. This also could have been a fantastic method of reinvigorating linkshells, allowing alliances to enter rather than capping the limit to 6 players, but alas, no point complaining about it. It is what it is. I'll find a way to make it work for me or it'll be one more straw on this camel's back.

[Jakuk]

Well, 300 cards for one jobs af+3 so, count on the servers not going down for at least 3 years. I guess that's a plus.

I however, don't have any intentions of doing this content every day . When the lockout is gone I'll care. But I'm not going to debate the validity of the 1/day mechanic, it's archaic, but I know exactly why it's there.

You don't have to, you can get more than one card per time and even get chests with another KI in...

People jump to conclusions so quickly, the mechanics are not known, for all you know it could be possible to farm more cards and KI's rather easily, just need to figure them out.

[Vae]

Meh, doesn't appeal to me. I'm simply not interested in doing an event once a day for the next year. I did salvage once a day for 6 years straight, that time has passed.

If you like the current conditions, great. But it missed the mark for me.

I know why it is like it is, so not gonna bother complaining. happy to wait for it to get adjusted/skip it. There's acceptably/understandably grindy. And then there's this.

It'll all be replaced by relic+3 before you can even finish the set.

[Shiyo]

People are not even asking for hand outs or soloable content, they are asking for good design. Daily lockouts:

- Makes harder for new people to catch up. Just ask anyone how does it feel to rank coalitions noways.
- Makes FFXI feel like a job. I need to log out and I need to to the event. If you don't, you are wasting you day. Every time you log you need to do the event or you are wasting your day.
- Makes super harder to play together for people, especially on small server. This is something a lot of FFXIV players know. One of the best things about FFXI (Even old one) was the ability for people to help. Now, if you do the content, you are out for the day. You can't help your friend catching up. The are server with 250 members online, do you realize how insane will be for some people to actually do this?
Exactly. This is treading on modern MMO design which is downright awful and needs to not be in this game.

I'm 100% ok with a 20 hour lockout IF, and ONLY IF, the KI stacks and slowly builds up over time, like void stones, traverser stones, etc. That allows me to log on, start the timer, and have 100+ KI's ready to go whenever I feel like doing this content, and have friends who I can help with it whenever I feel like as well. It's very friendly and doesn't make the game feel like a damn chore/job.

20 hour lock out, KI stacking to 1 only means I have to log on and do the content every. single. day.

That isn't fun.

Allow the KI to stack to 9999999999999999.

edit:

This lock out also means that people are going to shout, or form statics with the BEST GEARED and BEST JOBS only. These players also going to be running the content all the time, and become even more geared with the insane gear that comes from here.

Good luck catching up to these people if you're already new/behind. This content is the most new/returning player content ever created in this game.

It's entire design entry needs to change, and change NOW.

Please reconsider this design SE.

[Shiyo]

That's really more of a general game design goal. To keep us plugging and grinding away. They don't have the resources anymore for constant large amounts of content creation so are interested in creating content such that it wont be "beaten" for awhile to give them time to come up with something new. It's not something that is problem with specific content but is a by product of the state the game has been in for awhile and would expect it in some form from any content.

That said players learn and adapt and get better at farming things and often can end up outpacing the expectation and we've only had a handful of reports of people doing single runs. And heck some of them have already done full clears. People already found a free run room. I fully expect this to get figured out and people farming several cards a run or how to chain runs. I'm more concerned with the mats since so far looks like only from guild npc at a high price. Would be taking huge chunks of gil out of the economy millions at a time if no other source is found which will probably have a decent effect on player to player transactions/how people farm gil
Here's the thing:
Daily chores make people quit faster than "beating the game" does, especially when they can't even help their friends our to do the content.

These people end up quitting in disgust and anger, and will greatly reduce their chances of coming back.

Quitting because you "beat the game" makes you quit happy and fullfilled, with a sense of accomplishment, and will probably return to play the game.

You NEVER want to make people quit in anger due to gates/burn out, that only makes them never want to return to your game.

[BBWallace]

I'm not even sure if people would shout for omen. Would be better for them to just go with linkshell members or friends.

[Vae]

I'm not even sure if people would shout for omen. Would be better for them to just go with linkshell members or friends.

And, that's a problem. Things need to be available to shout groups, this really isn't.

(It obviously -is- but the punishment for failing is too steep with a 20 hour lock)

It's always good rewards: bad design. Or bad rewards: good design. or bad rewards: bad design (lol).

As I was typing, realized a half solution. If you don't complete the content you don't lose KI, just like ambuscade. That'd be more reasonable. You can still only do it once(if you win), but failure isn't a kick in the teeth.

[Shiyo]

And, that's a problem. Things need to be available to shout groups, this really isn't.

(It obviously -is- but the punishment for failing is too steep with a 20 hour lock)

It's always good rewards: bad design. Or bad rewards: good design. or bad rewards: bad design (lol).

As I was typing, realized a half solution. If you don't complete the content you don't lose KI, just like ambuscade. That'd be more reasonable. You can still only do it once(if you win), but failure isn't a kick in the teeth.

Yes, this would help a lot too. It would make it so people don't just static/run with geared players or the best jobs.

[Folken]

As I was typing, realized a half solution. If you don't complete the content you don't lose KI, just like ambuscade. That'd be more reasonable. You can still only do it once(if you win), but failure isn't a kick in the teeth.

Doesn't that not work since supposedly you can get more than one card per run?

[Vae]

Yeah, but unlimited cards for +2 isn't really a big deal. It's the drops from the bosses to make +3 that matter.

[OmnysValefor]

So I did Omen.

I am not fond of it. The 20 hour cooldown makes me want to be entirely too selective about who I want to come with. That's not fun. In ambuscade, I honestly don't care if a few people aren't perfect or quite up to the group's level as long as the rest can handle it. I've 4 or 5-manned plenty of ambuscades and given some random job a token role ("Hey feint will help us" / "Defensive buffs never hurt" / even so far as letting a blm help cure)

I think something on the order of 3 hours would be far better. I have two groups of friends that I keep separate because they play for very different reasons. (The 'whatever it takes' crowd vs the 'it is my $12.95, I'll play how I like" crowd) and I don't feel like I can adequately participate in this with both.

Edit: Less than 3 hours would also be fine. At least 1 hour though.

[Shiyo]

You also have to remember there's servers with like, < 300 people on at any given time.
You CANNOT have 20 hour lock outs in a game with < 300 player populations on at any given time on 75% of the servers. It doesn't work.

[Jin_Uzuki]

So I did Omen.

I am not fond of it. The 20 hour cooldown makes me want to be entirely too selective about who I want to come with. That's not fun. In ambuscade, I honestly don't care if a few people aren't perfect or quite up to the group's level as long as the rest can handle it. I've 4 or 5-manned plenty of ambuscades and given some random job a token role ("Hey feint will help us" / "Defensive buffs never hurt" / even so far as letting a blm help cure)


Yeah, the fact that the content has sub-objectives and failure means you essentially wasted 20 hours will make people much less tolerant toward mistake and less geared/capable people.

Can't really blame them though.

[Zeargi]

So, I was meaning to ask. Is it 20 hours from when you use the KI or when you get the KI?

[Nyarlko]

So, I was meaning to ask. Is it 20 hours from when you use the KI or when you get the KI?

It is 20hrs from the point you GET the KI.

[Zeargi]

So, I just tried out Omen on my SMN because that's the job I want to get my cards for. All in all, I'm not happy with this content. I tried it out solo to see what I could at least do.

This is very much like the assault problem that we used to have with the tags. While you can enter alone, it's not likely that certain jobs will ever be able to do it alone. I had flies and tigers in the starting area (Not sure if it's the same every time) but I only managed to kill the 2 Transcended Mobs and 6 of the other mobs. I also had an obj. Drop an Enemies HP by 2000 in one hit - my BP Rage didn't count, Perform a Skillchain - the SC from my trusts didn't count. I got a "There are ### omen from your foes" message, but not really sure what that means?

[Eckamus]

Yeah, I would say Omen is not near as friendly to solo play as it was advertised to be. The 20 hour lockout is a little on the silly side also, should be 1 hour. It limits who you can play with and what jobs can be brought, simply cause failure isn't really a option. A few improvements that could be made, some may have been mentioned before by others...

- Decrease entry time to 1 hour
- Increase Card drops
- Make the job selectable that you will receive cards for
- Some objectives are unreasonable, further limiting Card acquisition (Objectives per party, not generic ones)

As it stands, a generous time to completing 1 set of AF armor will take 40 Earth Days minimum. If you are trading cards for another job, multiply that by 10, so 400 Earth Days. Over 1 year is pretty ridiculous, if you can't go on a certain job. As it stands, Omen leaves a lot to be desired in form and function.

[BobbinT]

huh...

This smells alot like how FF14 2.0 works. I thought FF11 was Everquest-based, not WoW... :?
or current Everquest already adopt how WoW works? :?

[Zeargi]

So, reporting back in after trying it with a group:

The obj scroll by too fast, you can't see them in the storm of combat.
4/6 of us got a card, while myself and the BLM didn't get anything, so that's kind of lame
Got the Glossy Gorger, which I think is weak to slashing because it took 4500-10k from Spinning Dive, but couldn't beat it.

The content is new, so I'm sure their much to learn, but it could definitely use some major adjustments.

[Nyarlko]

Yeah, I would say Omen is not near as friendly to solo play as it was advertised to be. The 20 hour lockout is a little on the silly side also, should be 1 hour. It limits who you can play with and what jobs can be brought, simply cause failure isn't really a option. A few improvements that could be made, some may have been mentioned before by others...

- Decrease entry time to 1 hour....

LOL The maximum time limit for the event is 50-60min, so 1hr lockout might as well be zero lockout and far sillier than a 20hr one. XD I don't see this happening anytime soon.

The content of a Massively Multiplayer Online game demanding that you play with others in order to receive maximum benefits? /shocked... >.>;;;

I see the ability to enter solo as a nice gesture, but as the devs said previously, solo/lowman Omen = primarily farming trash mobs. Trusts will be 99% worthless against the clvl 139 boss after all and I'd be immensely impressed by any job/player who was able to solo their way thru 2mil+ HP within the time limit and mechanics.


Really wish that people would stop expecting to be able to easily solo group-based content for the same rewards... Getting "something" makes sense, getting "everything" would run counter to everything that devs talked about during the FP.

[Umisame]

Its nice to see that SE keeps updating ffxi but i dont like to feel forced to play something every X hours. I left FFXIV because i hated weekly restrictions and now we get this 20h timer that make us just focus on 1 job. I cancelled my sub, im sure they will change lockout timer and ill wait for it.

[Shiyo]

LOL The maximum time limit for the event is 50-60min, so 1hr lockout might as well be zero lockout and far sillier than a 20hr one.
Explain your reasoning for defending a 20 hour lock out timer where the KI doesn't stack up, thus you are greatly encouraged to do it every. single. day.

Its nice to see that SE keeps updating ffxi but i dont like to feel forced to play something every X hours. I left FFXIV because i hated weekly restrictions and now we get this 20h timer that make us just focus on 1 job. I cancelled my sub, im sure they will change lockout timer and ill wait for it.
I'm not going to unsub but this is 100% how I feel. If the direction of this game continues on this path I will be very, very sad.

It certainly doesn't help we have people blindly defending horribly designed content entry rules, either.

[Vae]

I can explain the 20 hour lockout, it's not rocket science.

You, and everyone else will continue to pay your subs for the next 6 months to do omen everyday. They don't have to add or fix anything for a pretty long time by doing this. They'll still do ambuscade obviously, but no one can complain there's "no content" for quite a long time now.

It makes perfect since from the business perspective, all the addicts aren't going to Actually quit. They've got you by the balls.

Changing the lock out means you can finish sooner, and means they have to come up with new content sooner. Don't count on it.

[Nyarlko]

Explain your reasoning for defending a 20 hour lock out timer where the KI doesn't stack up, thus you are greatly encouraged to do it every. single. day.

I'm not going to unsub but this is 100% how I feel. If the direction of this game continues on this path I will be very, very sad.

It certainly doesn't help we have people blindly defending horribly designed content entry rules, either.

Very simple. It was meant to be this way. Fujito and the rest of the devs spent a long time explaining why they went this way and it makes sense. They were aiming for the oldschool vibe w/ required teamwork/coordination/communication and non-instant gratification with a reasonably large payout at the end. There will be an actual sense of accomplishment with each upgrade we complete. (There is a small workaround for the daily runs btw.. You can grab a KI, wait til 20hrs+ pass and do two runs in a row. So it is possible to push it to an every-other-day thing instead of daily if you really want to.)

Everyone's gotten spoiled w/ simple to get gear drops and spammable Ambuscade that can be done getting gear in a single day. It's not actually a BAD thing for there to be an event that we have to EARN our gear. It might be frustrating to be chomping at the bit to get our hands on it, but not-having-right-now does not mean that what we already have now is worse than what we had two weeks ago. This content is less than a week old, but if it were spammable, I can guarantee there would be at least a handful who were already working on their 2nd+ set of +3s. It's not a bad thing for the devs to want to prevent burnout, or to design content that will last for more than a month at best. There is also no guarantee that the 20hr lockout is not temporary and will get reduced in due time.

I for one actually appreciate that I've got something new to do that I can do once and be done for the day. And I will also probably appreciate the moment when I complete each piece considerably more than I do when yet another piece of gear is obtained in Reisenjima/Escha.

[Shiyo]

Very simple. It was meant to be this way. Fujito and the rest of the devs spent a long time explaining why they went this way and it makes sense. They were aiming for the oldschool vibe w/ required teamwork/coordination/communication and non-instant gratification with a reasonably large payout at the end.

Alright, so you want the game to be worse because "its oldschool!".

That's fine, but content like this will do more harm than good for the game and lower the already small player base to even smaller numbers if we continue to get content like this.

By the way, 20 hour lock out =/= effort/accomplish. You have to earn your game in all content in the game, adding a 20 hour lock out doesn't make it require anymore effort to earn. Not sure why you think that way but it doesn't actually make any logical sense.

I was thinking about it right now, and I was like "I should probably do omen because I need stuff from it and it's 1 day lock out" but then I realized "Well, but I don't feel like doing that content right now,and I don't like doing chores/dailies, so nah, I'll pretend the content doesn't exist at all instead.

20 hour lockout = chore/daily.
Chores aren't fun.

If I wanted to play a daily/chore simulator I'd play one of the other numerous "standard" mmos.

[Jin_Uzuki]

The event isn't even well design. Did people actually go in? Because some objectives are honestly speacking quite insane.

[Teraniku]

Translation: I want to be able to spam omen so I can get my gear right away and not have to wait, so that after I'm done getting my gear I can sit around and wait until the next gear content comes out!

That's pretty much how I translated the first post...

[Jakuk]

Translation: I want to be able to spam omen so I can get my gear right away and not have to wait, so that after I'm done getting my gear I can sit around and wait until the next gear content comes out!

That's pretty much how I translated the first post...

Forgot: "While moaning about the lack of content."

[Nyarlko]

Alright, so you want the game to be worse because "its oldschool!".

That's fine, but content like this will do more harm than good for the game and lower the already small player base to even smaller numbers if we continue to get content like this.

By the way, 20 hour lock out =/= effort/accomplish. You have to earn your game in all content in the game, adding a 20 hour lock out doesn't make it require anymore effort to earn. Not sure why you think that way but it doesn't actually make any logical sense.

I was thinking about it right now, and I was like "I should probably do omen because I need stuff from it and it's 1 day lock out" but then I realized "Well, but I don't feel like doing that content right now,and I don't like doing chores/dailies, so nah, I'll pretend the content doesn't exist at all instead.

20 hour lockout = chore/daily.
Chores aren't fun.

If I wanted to play a daily/chore simulator I'd play one of the other numerous "standard" mmos.

It has nothing to do with what I want. It is what the devs want that is going to determine the nature of any content, and the most that we can influence is mostly limited to tweaks or bug fixes. (It works like that with pretty much any software business/product btw.) I am only "defending" that what they went with is a valid design choice regardless of whether we like it or not. The content isn't nearly old enough to really be able to say anything against it other than "But I want to spam it so I can get my stuff now!" Currently, even if you are not in the mood to run Omen, you can still grab a KI which starts the timer ticking, then run twice the next day (after 20hrs passes.) So, if you want, you can reduce the "chore" aspect from "once daily" to "twice every other day".

Instead of whining over the 20hr lockout, we should all be whining about the actual imbalances in the event itself.. Which are rather numerous and have yet to see any widespread complaints over. Trusts and pets not counting towards objective completion is a big one in my opinion. Kinda hoping that is related to the bug which is affecting Vagary atm and not actually intended. Certain objectives being nearly impossible for the majority (like 2k+ melee hits, 15k non-MB, etc) might need to have their required values toned down a bit.

[OmnysValefor]

Translation: I want to be able to spam omen so I can get my gear right away and not have to wait, so that after I'm done getting my gear I can sit around and wait until the next gear content comes out!

That's pretty much how I translated the first post...

I hate generalizations like this.

I do absolutely think 20 hours is way too long but most critically because it shapes who you want to do the content with.

Also, a ki storage system would be better. They've done it before with VW and Abyssea.

[Olor]

I hate generalizations like this.

I do absolutely think 20 hours is way too long but most critically because it shapes who you want to do the content with.

Also, a ki storage system would be better. They've done it before with VW and Abyssea.

I am not the target for this content since I am nowhere near ready to do it, but even a limited KI storage like salvage would be better. It wouldn't break anything to let people do it a few times at once every few days vs every 20 hours only. This sort of nonsense is completely not pick up friendly. No one is going to want to make a pick up group for an event like this. It's contrary to how people are playing the game now.

[detlef]

It is like Salvage. You can store 1. It's still extremely limiting.

[detlef]

I agree that 20 hours is too much. I think they should be more like Assault tags, where the NPC can store a few for you that build up over time and you can hold a KI yourself. Ideally, the system would be setup so that if you log in and play at the same time everyday, you should have accumulated something like 3 KI in 24 hours. This gives you a lot of flexibility to do a few consecutive runs, giving you opportunities to run with multiple groups and different people if you wanted to. You wouldn't worry about being choosy because those KI would be wasted if you didn't use them.

I think 3 is a good number because a low-man group just farming trash and objectives would only clear the 1st two floors, making it a 20-minute event x3 for a total of 60 minutes of content in one day. A strong group would probably clear the entire zone in 30-40 minutes and 2 hours of content per day seems reasonable for a group like that.

Here's hoping for an adjustment sooner rather than later.

[Mithlas]

For those saying it helps with slowing content progression and forces you to pick and choose who you're with:

I've always been of the mind of loving PUGs. Yeah they suck sometimes in some MMOs, but with a community driven game (such as MMOs) should you be able to have a successful run from the entire community of the server? Instead of defending it and saying "oh it relies on other people stop QQing" you're essentially defending it by defining your community to just be your linkshell and active friends. No more than that.

[stubbsie]

personally the upgrades to the af is needed but for cards and 20 hours is rediculous, i like to play monk, so i have to play monk to get my cards and to be fair not many take monk, last thing i want to do is go for blu and have to get 100 cards of that to trade for 10 monk come on SE give us a break so thats 1 card a day say if we are lucky so that be 100 days to get 1 piece of +2, think il just miss this event just not worth the time or hassle

[Jin_Uzuki]

Forgot: "While moaning about the lack of content."

Yeah, 1 hour content every 24 hours that they may not even able to do is definitely getting people their fill of content.

[Shiyo]

personally the upgrades to the af is needed but for cards and 20 hours is rediculous, i like to play monk, so i have to play monk to get my cards and to be fair not many take monk, last thing i want to do is go for blu and have to get 100 cards of that to trade for 10 monk come on SE give us a break so thats 1 card a day say if we are lucky so that be 100 days to get 1 piece of +2, think il just miss this event just not worth the time or hassle
Yeah, this event is so restrictive and has such a huge lock out me and the people I play with are completely avoiding it.

Sometimes you add content to a game and restrict it so much to make it "last" that it means people don't even want to deal with the bs restrictions and instead don't do it, this there was basically nothing added to the game.

Great.

Add an assault tag/voidstone/traverser stone stacking KI system and I will have no problems with a 20 hour wait.
I have problems with feeling forced to do something every single day for months, instead of staving up and spamming it a bit over a few days when I feel like doing it.

PLEASE FIX THIS 20 HOUR LOCK OUT SYSTEM SE.

[Jakuk]

Yeah, 1 hour content every 24 hours that they may not even able to do is definitely getting people their fill of content.

Yeah, instead it's better to get all new content done in a day and then have months of doing nothing day in day out.


Yeah, this event is so restrictive and has such a huge lock out me and the people I play with are completely avoiding it.

Called cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Yeah, instead it's better to get all new content done in a day and then have months of doing nothing day in day out.


No one does new content in a day. Most people run stuff for 1 hour and then disband. Only the 1% would have spammed it.

And the argument is irrelevant. No one is forcing you to spam anything. You can gear as much you want, if you want to space events, you can do it.

Also, again, 1 hour of content I can barely do (Because lockouts and random objective inside and the fact that it essentially encourages statics) is not going to get anyone their fill of content. They are back to West Adoulin "doing nothing day in day out" if they do it and if they don't it nothing change for them. No one is going to sub 1 year to get a side-upgrade to their AF. You are talking about strawmen.

[Shiyo]

Static content doesn't work in 2016 in a game with <300 players on at any given time on 75% of the servers.

I don't think I've seen a single omen shout yet either, but I see PLENTY of ambu all day everyday.

Content that can't be pugged doesn't belong in FFXI anymore. All content needs to be PUG friendly and HELPING YOUR FRIENDS friendly.

[Nyarlko]

No one does new content in a day. Most people run stuff for 1 hour and then disband. Only the 1% would have spammed it.

I got 17k hm outta last month's Ambuscade on the extra day in less than 3hrs. Running w/ 2x diff pug groups. It's possible to burn out current content pretty darn fast.

[Jin_Uzuki]

I got 17k hm outta last month's Ambuscade on the extra day in less than 3hrs. Running w/ 2x diff pug groups. It's possible to burn out current content pretty darn fast.

Nice. Meanwhile I do about 1 hour of ambu once every 2-3 days. Haven't even done it this month yet.

Woah... looking like you don't have to burn content, if you don't want it? You can play... as much you want.

[Nyarlko]

Nice. Meanwhile I do about 1 hour of ambu once every 2-3 days. Haven't even done it this month yet.

Woah... looking like you don't have to burn content, if you don't want it? You can play... as much you want.

The hidden point there was that I ignored it entirely for the whole month, and still managed to get it done super fast on the "bonus" day we got due to the login issues. ^^;;
Even with the grouping restrictions, I kinda like having something available that I CAN'T burn thru in one day and will have to keep plugging away at.

[Shiyo]

Nice. Meanwhile I do about 1 hour of ambu once every 2-3 days. Haven't even done it this month yet.

Woah... looking like you don't have to burn content, if you don't want it? You can play... as much you want.
That's exactly the point that certain people seem to not understand.

We want options and choices, we don't want to be told "No, you can only do this content every x hours".

Ambu reward structure is pretty HEAVILY messed up but it's entry is perfect.

Omen is just a disaster.


The hidden point there was that I ignored it entirely for the whole month, and still managed to get it done super fast on the "bonus" day we got due to the login issues. ^^;;
Even with the grouping restrictions, I kinda like having something available that I CAN'T burn thru in one day and will have to keep plugging away at.
That makes absolutely NO SENSE. Like, literally not a single bit of any sense.

You know you can "not burn through" other content, right? It's called making a conscious choice NOT to spam it.

However, omen doesn't let you make your own decisions, and tells you "You can do this once every 20 hours".

Why do you need content to be designed in a way for you to have self control over spamming it? Why is LESS CHOICES AND LESS OPTIONS/CONTROL BETTER?

Please explain your reasoning, because it doesn't make any logical sense.

[detlef]

"I do not have the discipline to avoid overindulging in something that I perceive as important, please restrict access to it and save me from myself."

[Nyarlko]

That's exactly the point that certain people seem to not understand.

We want options and choices, we don't want to be told "No, you can only do this content every x hours".

Ambu reward structure is pretty HEAVILY messed up but it's entry is perfect.

Omen is just a disaster.


That makes absolutely NO SENSE. Like, literally not a single bit of any sense.

You know you can "not burn through" other content, right? It's called making a conscious choice NOT to spam it.

However, omen doesn't let you make your own decisions, and tells you "You can do this once every 20 hours".

Why do you need content to be designed in a way for you to have self control over spamming it? Why is LESS CHOICES AND LESS OPTIONS/CONTROL BETTER?

Please explain your reasoning, because it doesn't make any logical sense.

Having something structured to do w/ LS members is a nice thing in my opinion. It doesn't require a potentially large time investment, reduces pressure to get it done ASAP even if I must exclude all other in-game activities, and encourages actual personal ties between ls members rather than silent pugs w/ strangers who don't care one bit about you or anyone else in the group. I can't think of anything before that would be an accurate direct comparison, but for some reason it does feel like oldschool content to me. I'm also pretty sure that the CD will be relaxed and/or eliminated with time, so I'm no where near being capable of panicking about it.

I am not "for" the 20hr lockout, but I can understand and accept many of the reasons that it is there. I can be patient enough to slowly grind thru with my friends to get our upgrades, which as soon as I finish, I'm sure the CD will be reduced or eliminated.. orz

[Stompa]

I see this as a far better system than Ambuscade.

Firstly, your points don't magically vanish every month like they do in Ambuscade. Secondly you don't have the entire server killing the same ten trash mobs every five minutes to get the KI, and then jamming up the entry zone.

I have said before, that the Ambuscade KI / rewards system is by far the worst event design I have ever seen in my long and painful life. People go crazy to spam Ambuscade at the start of the month, so they can build points before the end of the month Points Apocalypse occurs. People who may have wanted to xp on a certain type of mob that month, will find armies of high level players one-shotting those mobs for Ambuscade KIs. It is literally horrible.

I predict Omen will be tweaked in various ways, much like other content has been changed gradually to make it more user friendly. But it is better than Ambuscade.

In the old days, when people spent almost a year farming single pieces of gear, the atmosphere was less stressful. We fished and crafted and did merit points, missions etc. There was never this "have to get all the new stuff in non-stop burns" it was more like we arranged to do Event X on a certain day and time, and everyone saved their KI for that day and time, and we made an event of it. And we didn't expect to get anything much from that one run, we knew it was a long-term project.

So with Omen, I would see it like, you need to communicate with your friends and make a static, and arrange to do Omen at certain specific times. And to approach it as a Fun Adventure Battle, a test of your teamwork and game-skills, with some small rewards possible from each adventure. There are some strong mobs in Omen, it is a challenge and an adventure to defeat them. Challenging adventures are Happy Feels for many of us. Partying with our friends for challenging adventures, is Happy Feels for many of us. The fact that the gear is not the best in the game for many jobs, is just another reason to enjoy this battle as a static party adventure, fun times with friends, and gradually chip-away at the final armour pieces over a long casual time frame.

It would be totally different if this was the first ilvl 119 armour in the game, and you totally had to get it just to survive in the fields of carnage. But it isn't, and you don't.

Merry Christmas.

[Werewolf]

The 20 hour lockout doesn't bother me as much as the job card restriction; I want cards for a certain job but my party wants me on another job... kind of sucks; and no the 1:10 exchange doesn't help considering how few cards I get it would take me forever that way.

[Shiyo]

So with Omen, I would see it like, you need to communicate with your friends and make a static, and arrange to do Omen at certain specific times.
Schedule static only content doesn't work in a 2016 game with less than <300 players on at any given time on 75% of the servers.

Most of the gear isn't strong enough to warrant the lock out, at all. The majority of the best gear is drops from the NM's which can be farmed with relatively high drop rates and finished in a week or two. There is far too much of a restriction on gear that isn't even the best for the majority of slots/jobs.

If you're going to gate something so heavily, every single piece should have been an upgrade. They aren't - this content is heavily gated for absolutely no reason.

[Shiyo]

So I'm guessing 20 hour lockout is staying and working as intended?

[PristineChicken]

So I'm guessing 20 hour lockout is staying and working as intended?

Yes, it is. That is exactly correct. I'm glad you understand this.

[Urmom]

"I do not have the discipline to avoid overindulging in something that I perceive as important, please restrict access to it and save me from myself."

Well that's human nature... especially true in a game where the designers goal is to make things take as long as possible (or at least until they can churn out some more content) without making us rage quit lol. Lockout is one method putting excessive grinds that encourage spamming to get the rewards before they get supplanted by new content/gear is another. This unfortunately has both because unless you get really good groups you are looking at a good 100-200 runs just to upgrade a single set. Even without lockout you'd be looking at weeks of spamming to upgrade a set.

The apparently intended rate is what's out of whack. Like without even exaggerating it seems they want us to spend the rest of the year or possibly rest of the game farming this stuff up. But realistically people aren't going to do that if newer content with better gear comes out but if newer content with better gear doesn't come out at this point in the game people will quit anyways. They need to vastly up the droprates. An average soloer should be able to farm enough cards for a +2 in 1 maybe 2 runs instead of the 5+ it would take the average and a good static decently faster

[Mithlas]

Well that's human nature... especially true in a game where the designers goal is to make things take as long as possible (or at least until they can churn out some more content) without making us rage quit lol. Lockout is one method putting excessive grinds that encourage spamming to get the rewards before they get supplanted by new content/gear is another. This unfortunately has both because unless you get really good groups you are looking at a good 100-200 runs just to upgrade a single set. Even without lockout you'd be looking at weeks of spamming to upgrade a set.

The apparently intended rate is what's out of whack. Like without even exaggerating it seems they want us to spend the rest of the year or possibly rest of the game farming this stuff up. But realistically people aren't going to do that if newer content with better gear comes out but if newer content with better gear doesn't come out at this point in the game people will quit anyways. They need to vastly up the droprates. An average soloer should be able to farm enough cards for a +2 in 1 maybe 2 runs instead of the 5+ it would take the average and a good static decently faster

Exactly my issue with it.
Their timetable planned.. I just can't

[Nyarlko]

Exactly my issue with it.
Their timetable planned.. I just can't

I think everyone needs to calm down a bit about the lockout. ^^;; There is still a strong probability that the timer will be relaxed/removed with time. Devs are on holiday til February it seems, (no Jan FP, announcement of January campaigns a full month early, they flat out said they are out til Feb, etc XD) so I wouldn't expect to hear anything about it until at least then. Since the development cycle restarts in March IIRC, I'm actually more inclined to expect to have to wait til then to hear what their plans are for Omen in the coming year.
Actually.... Didn't they do something similar to this last year? Give us a long grindy thing to work on for Dec/Jan then actual update type stuff in Feb? (We were able to start working on Aeonics around that time, IIRC..) I wouldn't be surprised if the current setup is intended to just keep us busy while they are on forced vacation or something lol

However, if March rolls around and devs say that there will be no changes to Omen in 2017, then I will enthusiastically join the horde of complainers. -_-;;
I for one will be grinding patiently until at least then before I see any reason to panic. If you look at the current setup as a temporary setup, it's really not as bad as others make it out to be.

[Shiyo]

No, people do not need to calm down.
Changes happen when people complain and give constructive criticism/feedback.
Nothing changes when you blindly defend every single thing SE does and think it's great, because then the devs see "Oh no problems! Guess everyone is happy!"

Stop defending bad things so that SE doesn't see there's feedback saying it's fine, they should only see negative feedback regarding badly designed things to encourage them to change them more.

[Nyarlko]

No, people do not need to calm down.
Changes happen when people complain and give constructive criticism/feedback.
Nothing changes when you blindly defend every single thing SE does and think it's great, because then the devs see "Oh no problems! Guess everyone is happy!"

Stop defending bad things so that SE doesn't see there's feedback saying it's fine, they should only see negative feedback regarding badly designed things to encourage them to change them more.

So... If someone doesn't want to join the angry mob, then they're not allowed to state any opinions?

I don't have any problems taking a short-term "wait and see" stance for now. As I just said, if March rolls around and there are not even announcements of planned reductions to the lockout, then I will happily pick up my Pitchfork+1 and join you in storming the windmill.

[Shiyo]

By then it's probably too late.

[Nyarlko]

By then it's probably too late.

Three months of waiting does not seem like "too late" to me. Especially since it is likely that lowering the entry CD over time was intended from the start like I feel it was.

Good news though everybody! Confirmation on some sort of adjustment to time for Omen on JPside today. ^^
Post by Salalaruru (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/51713-%E3%82%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A1%E3%83%B3%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=589420&viewfull=1#post589420)
My japanese is not strong enough to actually tell exactly what the planned adjustment is (whether they are talking about time per floor or time allowed to complete objectives) but maybe someone else could help? It doesn't quote anyone, but I think it means that the timer to complete objectives is planned to be increased.. Could be wrong tho and it's time per floor. :x

[detlef]

I think everyone needs to calm down a bit about the lockout. ^^;; There is still a strong probability that the timer will be relaxed/removed with time. Devs are on holiday til February it seems, (no Jan FP, announcement of January campaigns a full month early, they flat out said they are out til Feb, etc XD) so I wouldn't expect to hear anything about it until at least then. Since the development cycle restarts in March IIRC, I'm actually more inclined to expect to have to wait til then to hear what their plans are for Omen in the coming year.
Actually.... Didn't they do something similar to this last year? Give us a long grindy thing to work on for Dec/Jan then actual update type stuff in Feb? (We were able to start working on Aeonics around that time, IIRC..) I wouldn't be surprised if the current setup is intended to just keep us busy while they are on forced vacation or something lol

However, if March rolls around and devs say that there will be no changes to Omen in 2017, then I will enthusiastically join the horde of complainers. -_-;;
I for one will be grinding patiently until at least then before I see any reason to panic. If you look at the current setup as a temporary setup, it's really not as bad as others make it out to be.Sure I think it'll be relaxed in the future. But if you think that when March hits, the 20-hour wait will be unacceptable to you then, why is it acceptable now? Only earning cards on the job you're on is incredibly restrictive, so many of the mini-objectives are melee-centric, and I feel that a lot of the objectives don't scale well with a full PT. These are more complaints about the content itself but it's harder to accept bad luck when you're locked out for 20 hours.

Also, the game's not in some super healthy state and 3 months could represent a not-so-insignificant chunk of the game's future.

[Nyarlko]

Sure I think it'll be relaxed in the future. But if you think that when March hits, the 20-hour wait will be unacceptable to you then, why is it acceptable now? Only earning cards on the job you're on is incredibly restrictive, so many of the mini-objectives are melee-centric, and I feel that a lot of the objectives don't scale well with a full PT. These are more complaints about the content itself but it's harder to accept bad luck when you're locked out for 20 hours.

Also, the game's not in some super healthy state and 3 months could represent a not-so-insignificant chunk of the game's future.

There's plenty of room for improvement inside the fight itself of course, and the dev post I linked is a good indication that they are not going to dig in their heels too hard about the details at least. ^^

[detlef]

Yes, that's a welcome change and will help to farm cards more efficiently. It doesn't address the re-entry time but hopefully it is a sign that an adjustment will happen sooner rather than later.

[OmnysValefor]

If it's spaming they're worried about, or just congestion (as Ambu had in the first month), there are a few things they can do that people have discussed.

- A reduced, but not removed cooldown. I think 3 hours should be maximum cooldown.

- Make the KI cost say 35 merits OR 10 JP (offer both as options).

People always talk in MMOs about devs struggling to make content as fast as players complete it. A reasonable lockout wouldn't make an issue out of this.

The job-based cards has got to go. I very much get the principal (Prove your mastery of x-job) but when Y job is better for a boss or for your group, what's the group supposed to do? It sucks telling friends you need them on X job. The pacing is way too slow to make this remotely acceptable.

Acquiring cards for a job you don't actually care about is the same as not going at all.

[Belmonts]

Three months of waiting does not seem like "too late" to me. Especially since it is likely that lowering the entry CD over time was intended from the start like I feel it was.

Good news though everybody! Confirmation on some sort of adjustment to time for Omen on JPside today. ^^
Post by Salalaruru (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/51713-%E3%82%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A1%E3%83%B3%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=589420&viewfull=1#post589420)
My japanese is not strong enough to actually tell exactly what the planned adjustment is (whether they are talking about time per floor or time allowed to complete objectives) but maybe someone else could help? It doesn't quote anyone, but I think it means that the timer to complete objectives is planned to be increased.. Could be wrong tho and it's time per floor. :x
There ya go:


バトルコンテンツ「オーメン」に関するご意見をありがとうございます。
[Batoru kontentsu "Omen" ni kansuru go-iken wo arigatou gozaimasu]
Thank you for your feedback(opinions) regarding the battle content "Omen".

いただきましたご意見のうち、目標の制限時間については、
[itadakimashita go-iken no uchi, mokuhyou no seigen jikan ni tsuite wa,]
Regarding your comments we received about the time restriction on objectives,

いまよりも長い時間設けるよう調整する予定です。
[ima yori mo nagai jikan moukeru you chousei suru yotei desu.]
there are preparations towards an adjustment where the timer will be longer than it currently is.

早めのタイミングでお届けできるようしますので、しばしお待ちください。
[Hayame no TAIMINGU de todoke dekiru you ni shimasu no de, shibaraku omachi kudasai]
We'll deliver it as soon as possible so please be patient.

[Shiyo]

I like the job restriction, forces people to try things.
This games player base are so stuck in their ways and only play in the most boring way imaginable, so the devs really really really REALLY need to force people to try different comps/jobs.

The problem is a 20 hour lock out makes it so people are only EVER going to take what's the safest/best/guaranteed win, so no experimenting.

6 player max + 20 hour time gate = sterile boring comps.

20 hour lock out is ruining this content in more ways than one.

[Vae]

The job restriction "makes sense" in that it gets people to play other jobs. But it also sucks, cause good luck getting DRG cards. PUP cards. MNK cards. etc.

If you didn't lock cards to jobs, everyone would just pet zerg every boss.

Middle ground is exceedingly small.

10:1 is INSANE though.

I will say this though, some of the gear is totally legit, but most of it is meh at best. 20 hour locking it, and making it take 20 days per piece of +3 is pretty disgusting.

[OmnysValefor]

The job restriction is bad when you personally favor one job but are needed on another. Some jobs just flat out out-perform other jobs.

My Runefencer will probably benefit the most from these upgrades from the jobs I play (JSE is very important to RUN) but there are definitely times when my PLD better serves the group. I have gone PLD to a few and collected a few cards but I'd rather be on RUN. My RUN uses a few pieces of herculean but actually gets use out of JSE. PLD's JSE, being far less impressive for stats PLD wants, sits on slips mostly.

The system, imo, just asks you to choose whether you care about group progress or personal progress first, unless you happen to get to play job you want anyway.

[Vae]

In Theory, as a static it works perfect. You rotate who's turn it is to get "main job cards". Everyone slowly (emphasis on SLOWLY) wins.

It's how I ran salvage. one guy got the plans for his job, till he got a piece > next player.

As anything other than an organized static party of 6, it's totally unreasonable. Which is how the majority play.

But I can 100% see why they want this to be the way it's done. Can't fault them for WANTING it to be like that, but those days are gone for most of us.

[Shiyo]

If you didn't lock cards to jobs, everyone would just pet zerg every boss.

That's the problem with this games player base. They resort to the least fun, least interactive, slowest and least efficient way to do things.

[Vae]

That's the problem with this games player base. They resort to the least fun, least interactive, slowest and least efficient way to do things.

Welcome to the species. That's a solid HUMAN issue. Not an ffxi issue.

Yeah, I could put square tires on my car... and be the only badass with sweet kicks... or I can just go the path of least resistance and use the round ones.

(I'll let you in on a secret, this game is not "entertainment" it. is. a. job. anyone who tells you different or thinks different is lying/fooling themselves. The objective is always to do it the most efficient way.)

[PristineChicken]

Welcome to the species. That's a solid HUMAN issue. Not an ffxi issue.

Yeah, I could put square tires on my car... and be the only badass with sweet kicks... or I can just go the path of least resistance and use the round ones.

(I'll let you in on a secret, this game is not "entertainment" it. is. a. job. anyone who tells you different or thinks different is lying/fooling themselves. The objective is always to do it the most efficient way.)

No, it's not.

Personal Anecdote: Some time ago I was doing Avatar VD fights. We were doing PLD RNG RNG COR BRD WHM. It was taking us 20 to 25 minutes to kill it. I managed to convince them to have the COR RNG RNG go DNC/RUN THF/RUN THF/RUN. Kill time went down to 5-10 minutes, and we had TH 13 on almost every fight.

This pissed the BRD off. We were doing it 'wrong'.

A lot of the time it's not about efficiency. It's about following the first discovered successful strategy to the letter, even if something else comes along that works better, because there's only one "right" way to do it.

It also comes down to efficiency is sometimes not "what works best and fastest" but "what is the most idiot-proof strategy".

This is particularly frustrating, as oft-times you can take a variety of jobs and still get it done, or get it done faster and easier than what the community is willing to take, and this shuts out a lot of people from playing on jobs they want to play.

[Shiyo]

Yeah, people play this game wrong and in the most inefficient way possible.
They play it "safe" and "first known strat/working strat" even if said strat takes 30 minutes instead of 5 minutes with a proper set up.

This games player base is really stuck in their ways, it's awful.

Playing with full mage/pet/ranged set ups isn't fun in the slightest and makes the game boring as hell.

[Afania]

The job restriction "makes sense" in that it gets people to play other jobs. But it also sucks, cause good luck getting DRG cards. PUP cards. MNK cards. etc.

If you didn't lock cards to jobs, everyone would just pet zerg every boss.

Middle ground is exceedingly small.

10:1 is INSANE though.

I will say this though, some of the gear is totally legit, but most of it is meh at best. 20 hour locking it, and making it take 20 days per piece of +3 is pretty disgusting.

Yeah something like 3:1 would be a lot more acceptable. Atm player can't change jobs to something different and play for fun, nor run with a more optimal setup because of the job card lock.

[Shiyo]

Taken quote from another(horrible) website:

And currently Omen would get ruined if you could spam it. If they add in more stuff there's a chance they could uncap it and give it plenty of playtime for people. Not saying they're going to develop logically, but the lockout is there because people like me quit with nothing to do and the 20 hour lockout on Omen keeps me from finishing it in a week and quitting again.

This is why we can't have nice things. We have people who actually think this content is "good" and would be "ruined" because they don't have self control.

So SE decides to ruin this content for the majority of their player base to cater to the small minority with no self control that burns themselves out and consumes content immediately? Why cater to a small minority over your majority?

Ugh.

[Elexia]

Taken quote from another(horrible) website:


This is why we can't have nice things. We have people who actually think this content is "good" and would be "ruined" because they don't have self control.

And yet the majority of FFXI's content was always designed with lengthy refresh timers. It literally wasn't until "recently" did they actually design content to not have really long refresh timers, so the whole "feeling forced to play" has been relevant in XI since the dawn of the first end-game system in the game. You're only "forced" to play if you force yourself to play and not play because you want to.

[Domille]

Having forced myself to salvage every day for 6 years. Yeah, it's not a hard concept to see why 1/day lock outs are bad design.

I felt like shit every time I missed a day. And that's the actual purpose of the design. To influence your play.

Luckily omen is absolutely failure content, so I don't feel the need.

Once they add the money drops next week, that will change. and the compulsion to go everyday will start to irritate.

[Shiyo]

Next update:

Get your hands on all-new rewards from Omen and new synthesis recipes utilizing those materials.
So, instead of fixing this awful lock out, they decide to make it more rewarding?

My god..please, fix this.

[Shiyo]

Brand new year! Perfect time to fix this 20 hour lockout system and change it into something more player friendly for a game with <300 active players on at any time on 85% of the servers.

[AoiX]

They did this kind of behaviour with Assault (Tags), Abyssea (Traverse Stones), VW (Voidstone), Salvage (Permit), Limbus (Soap) -just to name a few)- I don't really see the need to rush through content when there's still a lot of stuff that can be done relevant to the actual landscape. It actually gives you the incentive to plan this and join fellow players. If anything you can stack one KI and get another one right away provided you planned ahead. Eventually they will make it easier to enter at some point; probably when new content is released or a new "Tier" is added.

[Jakuk]

They did this kind of behaviour with Assault (Tags), Abyssea (Traverse Stones), VW (Voidstone), Salvage (Permit), Limbus (Soap) -just to name a few)- I don't really see the need to rush through content when there's still a lot of stuff that can be done relevant to the actual landscape. It actually gives you the incentive to plan this and join fellow players. If anything you can stack one KI and get another one right away provided you planned ahead. Eventually they will make it easier to enter at some point; probably when new content is released or a new "Tier" is added.


The people that play FFXI can't handle the old style FFXI.

[AoiX]

The people that play FFXI can't handle the old style FFXI.

Agreed. Short span rewards... where's the passion, the hard work, the sense of achievement?

[Jin_Uzuki]

Agreed. Short span rewards... where's the passion, the hard work, the sense of achievement?

Agree. They should start adding 20h hours lockouts everywhere. There isn't passion and hard work unless you wait 20 hours between one escha NM and another. Maybe Ambu too. Definitely restore Dyna lockout too.

That's the difference between one bad player and a good one. Their ability to stare at the lockout for 20 hours.

[AoiX]

Agree. They should start adding 20h hours lockouts everywhere. There isn't passion and hard work unless you wait 20 hours between one escha NM and another. Maybe Ambu too. Definitely restore Dyna lockout too.

That's the difference between one bad player and a good one. Their ability to stare at the lockout for 20 hours.

You just have to optimize the limited time you got with the knowledge you gather. This is an event you can't just spam and hope to get lucky. It sucks even more when you lose. You don't want that to happen.

[OmnysValefor]

You can play like short attention spans or whatever, but that's not the case.

20 hour cooldown makes job selection and person selection really really awful.

I'll give you that assault tags were similar. Traverser stones and VW stones weren't nearly this bad.

Oh and guess what, you could queue more than 2 key items at a time in all of those cases.

Floor 3's random boss must be brutal on the wrong jobs. I haven't tried but I imagine nuking craver under 30% isn't easy and poor you if a nuke lands during Pain Sync on Thinker.

I have some friends that I don't want to take to Omen because I know they're not up to snuff. There are some jobs I don't want to see in omen because I know it's not optimum. I took PLD last night and PLD/BLU did just fine except that it's not nearly the DD or defensive support (hello valiance, even refresh) that RUN is. PLD also needs to /blu to chain aoe-tank. Run can sub literally anything.

What about the tremendous difference GEO makes on any of the t3 bosses? Every bit you ws harder is less chance for pain sync or less chance Craver will manage to kill someone.

Ambuscade doesn't present this problem, Reisenjima doesn't present this problem, there's enough HTBF to accomadate any job.

Edit: There are two or three NMs with difficult or tedious to obtain pops, like WoC but if you go as a group and farm the KIs, you have several to work with, even if you're still learning.

Some people liked Old XI, some people like modern XI, some people liked both. I liked both, but I acknowledge that the spirit of the game has changed and this present design of Omen has several problems.

People were talking earlier in the thread about Versatility. Versatility is nice but what if I don't care about cards for x job? The funny thing is that the answer is so simple for that: universal cards, rather than per-job, or 1:1 trade.

[Jin_Uzuki]

You just have to optimize the limited time you got with the knowledge you gather. This is an event you can't just spam and hope to get lucky. It sucks even more when you lose. You don't want that to happen.

I agree. Hence had a 20 hours lockdown to every endgame event please.

I don't feel satisfied unless there is a 20 hours lockdown between each escha NM. Don't you agree?

[AoiX]

No, I don't agree. Escha has other ways to control NMs and fights. It's a different kind of content.

[Jin_Uzuki]

No, I don't agree. Escha has other ways to control NMs and fights. It's a different kind of content.

Sounds hypocritical to me. What happened "to passion, the hard work, the sense of achievement"?

Do you want just to spam escha/rei "until you get lucky"?

[Nyarlko]

I think everyone is looking at Omen the wrong way. Seriously, try watching the Freshly Picked. ^^;;

Even if you don't understand the words being said, you should still be able to pick up on intonation/pitch/etc, and it's pretty easy to tell the devs were really excited about Omen. If you understand the content of what they say, then it's pretty easy to understand that they were excited about giving us basically a "Hard Mode Only" event that has strict rules, harsh requirements, and far from winnable for soloers or those not already endgame geared. Any/all expectations that we'd be able to TrustSolo our way to wins were based on overly hopeful and misguided interpretations of what was said before it was released. (Given the clvl of the bosses, this also makes sense whether we like it or not. No one should be soloing 139 clvl bosses.) It was designed to present a challenge that players can't overcome or outmaneuver by rapidly/repeatedly banging our heads against a proverbial wall. BTW, I have failed spectacularly and consistently so far with Omen on 3x different mastered jobs with solid gear, and even so, I have no issues or disagreements with the throwback lockout. Even though I really want to upgrade multiple jobs' worth of AF. ~_~;;

I'll get 'em all done eventually. <.< It might not be for a few months in my case, but I'll get there. Probably riiiiiiight before they announce a reduction in the cooldown/lockout with my luck, but I'll get there. XD There is this rare thing called "patience" that does exist and is said to be a virtue after all. We've got enough instant-gratification content at this point, there's nothing wrong with getting the occasional "hard work and effort" type event.

I'm still predicting a major reduction in the lockout around March/April. Possibly a reduction in February (down to ~15-16hrs) to calm everyone down, but down to like... 10-12hrs by the April update. This timeframe fits in with their annual scheduling (which I've always assumed is tied to fiscal year,) would be good timing to release something major alongside it (like a new 'wing' for Omen to upgrade relic armor for instance,) and the 3-5mon range is usually when top-tier content starts getting nerfed to become accessible to 'casuals' in my MMO experience.
(This is assuming that they have not already decided to call Omen "complete" before then and have no plans to continue or update it beyond what we have now.)

[AoiX]

Sounds hypocritical to me. What happened "to passion, the hard work, the sense of achievement"?

Do you want just to spam escha/rei "until you get lucky"?

Not hypocritical, Escha/Reisenjima has already a big filter. Pops. Specially the coffers from Incursion are annoying to get. There are more ways to filter content than just time. Omen happens to be time based. Escha doesn't. Work with the mechanics given. Someone here likes to twist words into a black/white setting. It's not black or white. Please stay in context.

[detlef]

The only Escha NMs that are limited by pops are Reisenjima T2s (Incursion grand coffers are annoying to get) and a handful of T4s (Teles comes to mind). You might be be able to make a case for Kirin or anything that uses Gravewood logs. Everything else is virtually unlimited.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Not hypocritical, Escha/Reisenjima has already a big filter. Pops.

No, really. T1 pops are basically infinite. Several best equipment drop from T1. Several merlinic pieces, vanya, heck even Almaric hands. Even the pops from several T2 and T3 are so easy to get that they may as well be.


Please stay in context.

I am. I'm showing you that not even you like time based gates. You are being hypocritical. Why don't you want 20 hours filler for every T1. Where's the passion, the hard work, the sense of achievement?

Because no one like arbitrary lockdowns, given the change. No one goes "whoa, my experience surely would be better if I could do this event once every 20 hours".

In fact, if anything it acts as deterrent to do event, I'd imagine especially on low pop servers.

[AoiX]

Working and achieving stuff doesn't mean being active in a certain task. You also need to plan on how to approach an event. Throwing a bunch of people on a specific event is as dumb as anything that doesn't go along the lines of achievement or hard word.

I also never said I like the 20 hours cool down. In a sense you are making me the martyr of a claim without foundation.

[Songen]

perhaps addtional KI or tradable items for the KI attained from fighting reisei T3-5 mobs or something. this will allow serious players to continue seriously. 20 hr lockout was probably added to prevent over crowding since the last boss's hp is thru the roof and takes a while one way or another. having to attain several items from T3-T5 mobs makes trying to get back in a little tricky, however should compesate to prevent over crowding