Numbers on new update 11/10?

[dmuller30]

So my BP's went from 20-45k average and now I can't get over 12-16k easily. . . . . I don't know if this was an upgrade or a downgrade . . .

[Zeargi]

So my BP's went from 20-45k average and now I can't get over 12-16k easily. . . . . I don't know if this was an upgrade or a downgrade . . .

I agree. My DMG is all over the place 6500-35k >_> I'm not sure that this is helpful at all. Not to mention it hurts our Wards greatly because of the TP bonus for healing.

[dmuller30]

Yeah you can no longer Predator Claw to whispering winds anymore. My BP's all together are lower but consistent on all the other summons for example now Shiva hits just as much as Ifrit on Rush vs Flaming Crush so far. . . I think something was messed up.

[Fae]

I've noticed no bad changes, overall it was about a 15% damage boost to Volt Strike, which is really good in my view. I think that if you are getting number ranges like you said above it is because some blood pacts were changed to have the weight from the first hit of a blood pact changed to have all hits carry through like some multi-hit weaponskills do. For weaponskills like that which some of which are some of the most powerful in the game like CDC and Resolution, if the mob dies before all hits landed the damage reported will be as if those hits never landed at all. So if you are testing changes make sure it's on mobs that won't die before all the damage is done. You can also still predator claw to whispering wind, and not lose out on potency at all. Whispering wind's healing range is affected but not the potency, which granted can still be very important but thought you'd like to know.

[Zeargi]

I've noticed no bad changes, overall it was about a 15% damage boost to Volt Strike, which is really good in my view. I think that if you are getting number ranges like you said above it is because some blood pacts were changed to have the weight from the first hit of a blood pact changed to have all hits carry through like some multi-hit weaponskills do. For weaponskills like that which some of which are some of the most powerful in the game like CDC and Resolution, if the mob dies before all hits landed the damage reported will be as if those hits never landed at all. So if you are testing changes make sure it's on mobs that won't die before all the damage is done. You can also still predator claw to whispering wind, and not lose out on potency at all. Whispering wind's healing range is affected but not the potency, which granted can still be very important but thought you'd like to know.

Thanks for that info. I was testing Volt Strike, Flaming Crush, and Predator Claw. The original targets were the Mandies outside of Adoulin. But I realized that they didn't have the HP, So I moved to the Deathmaws. For the most part I was still still seeing 12k-14k, with a few 18k-25k. Tested out on the Unagnites and could only randomly get 30k (With them out of the shell) with Flaming Crush. It wasn't until I got the Apogee Crown/Slacks and the Elan Strap that I got much higher numbers. I managed to get 51,117 dmg on an Unagnite. All in all, the update is somewhat helpful, but things do indeed suffer slightly. I tried to do Salvage as a SMN and while I did complete it. I definitely struggled some without the equipment to help me. Mind you, that's to be expected, but it makes me feel that it slightly punishes those SMN that aren't Very well geared even more than before. Not to mention, TP plays a huge role now, and JA like Apogee might suffer slightly. I don't want to be a downer, because I love SMN. But maybe a few other adjustments might help. Like the Mana Cede ability could have its timer adjusted, and Apogee lose the MP hike for using it. But then that leads into another area because of the higher MP cost of constantly using Mana Cede, Because we don't have the same MP recover like BLM/SCH do with Occult Acumen + Mkryr, so maybe shorten Elemental Syphon as well some? I might just be overthinking things though.

[Fae]

Flaming crush should just be more accurate, though there might be other changes to it no one has picked up on. Volt Strike and Pred Claw, even the Deathmaws don't really have enough HP. For the multihit ones you want to test on something with tons of HP like an Apex mob. Before the update I couldn't 1 shot insects at Reisenjima #3 every time with physical bps, but now I more than do so. The only aspect of any of this that could be a worse in some way and I'm not sure that it is, is for multihit BPs that the damage carries through on all hits, we might not get the bonus accuracy applied to all hits just the first. So you may be lacking about 100 accuracy on subsequent hits compared to what you were used to, where as before it didn't matter much because 80% of the damage was loaded into the first hit, now every hit matters equally. Shiromochi happens to have 108 accuracy though, so if you're missing I'd try using that. I do not believe there is a single BP that at 0 tp is worse than it was before, so the TP should be seen as bonus imo. The one aspect I will miss is doing physical bps to get TP and Wards/Magic BPs to spend them. It did have the effect of a tp set for the avatar being more desirable now, and this month's ambuscade gear is good for that. It may take some getting used to, but I think the end result of a 15% or more damage boost to even some of our strongest physical bps is worth it and a welcome and appreciated change.

Mountain Buster is one you might try out if you aren't enjoying the carries through hits BPs, it also has damage instead of crit chance or accuracy that it gets from TP now, so for one hit physical bp's it's actually one of the best options now.

[Mithlas]

What do you mean by the potency not being affected?
Healing Wards scale with TP. Thus, when you use the physical pacts now, quickly followed by a healing ward, you will lose potency based on if you had stored TP or not. :/

[Fae]

Whispering Wind and Spring Water do not scale potency with TP they scale range. If you don't believe me look at the wiki, or test it yourself. Carbuncle's healing wards are the only one that scale potency for TP. If you want stronger healing wards you need to up your avatar's max hp when the pact goes off, so apogee gear is great for that but then lower's your own max hp to accomplish it.

[Mithlas]

Thanks for that!
I didn't know. I had wrongfully assumed all healing pacts scaled with TP after that patch. :]

*insert the more you know rainbow star here*

[Fae]

Well to be fair, I do believe whispering wind scaled potency with tp before the patch that changed healing pacts (boosted their bases all significantly), and you're welcome :)

[Zeargi]

Flaming crush should just be more accurate, though there might be other changes to it no one has picked up on. Volt Strike and Pred Claw, even the Deathmaws don't really have enough HP. For the multihit ones you want to test on something with tons of HP like an Apex mob. Before the update I couldn't 1 shot insects at Reisenjima #3 every time with physical bps, but now I more than do so. The only aspect of any of this that could be a worse in some way and I'm not sure that it is, is for multihit BPs that the damage carries through on all hits, we might not get the bonus accuracy applied to all hits just the first. So you may be lacking about 100 accuracy on subsequent hits compared to what you were used to, where as before it didn't matter much because 80% of the damage was loaded into the first hit, now every hit matters equally. Shiromochi happens to have 108 accuracy though, so if you're missing I'd try using that. I do not believe there is a single BP that at 0 tp is worse than it was before, so the TP should be seen as bonus imo. The one aspect I will miss is doing physical bps to get TP and Wards/Magic BPs to spend them. It did have the effect of a tp set for the avatar being more desirable now, and this month's ambuscade gear is good for that. It may take some getting used to, but I think the end result of a 15% or more damage boost to even some of our strongest physical bps is worth it and a welcome and appreciated change.

Mountain Buster is one you might try out if you aren't enjoying the carries through hits BPs, it also has damage instead of crit chance or accuracy that it gets from TP now, so for one hit physical bp's it's actually one of the best options now.

Maybe a new Food geared towards SMN might also help. One that has ACC, ATT, MACC, and MAB (I'm guessing that PUP and BST could both benefit from something like that as well.) I'm gonna keep testing some and see what I can do. Maybe a JA to give Avatars a type of regain, or going back to food, maybe one that has Regain for pets(?) Just tossing out random stuff at this point.

[Frodnon]

This update is a huge boon to high-end geared summoners.
In situations where acc and pdif are capped, while triggering nirvana's aftermath 3 for da/ta, Volt strike can easily reach into the 60-80k+ range on T3/helm NMs in reisinjima.

My damage when i lowman maju with volt strike received a substantial boost.

[Alhanelem]

I'm far from high end lol but all the core BPs for me are holding around the same to increasing modestly- though there seems to be a lot more variation in the physical pacts than before.

[Urmom]

Maybe a new Food geared towards SMN might also help. One that has ACC, ATT, MACC, and MAB (I'm guessing that PUP and BST could both benefit from something like that as well.) I'm gonna keep testing some and see what I can do. Maybe a JA to give Avatars a type of regain, or going back to food, maybe one that has Regain for pets(?) Just tossing out random stuff at this point.

Might mean using Enticer's Pants now on the ones where dmg varies with tp and letting avatar melee a little bit first. Or make like a lot of pups get a cor

[Frodnon]

Flaming crush wasnt changed much, if at all. I have not tested it as thoroughly, but a quick yorcia lowman should show any shenanigans. The pacts that have clearly won out damage wise, largely due to da/ta/aftermath proc are pred claws, volt strike and rush.

[Urmom]

Flaming crush wasnt changed much, if at all. I have not tested it as thoroughly, but a quick yorcia lowman should show any shenanigans. The pacts that have clearly won out damage wise, largely due to da/ta/aftermath proc are pred claws, volt strike and rush.

Should check the update notes they give a vague idea of what they did. FC only gained "Accuracy varies with TP" so maybe cool on super evasive stuff? Should also add Eclipse Bite, Double Punch, and Chaotic Strike also gained in the same way with replicating ftps.

Think testing is still being done (and people not really bothering with lower lvl ones) but a lot of the dmg varies with tp ones gained a bit too at higher tps ie Double Punch, Rock Buster, Mountain Buster, Tail Whip, Axe Kick, Blindside, Crescent Fang, and Eclipse Bite.

The various crit hit rate ones also gained a lot when not capping pdif but otherwise meh... but most those were multihit ones that gained replicating ftp anyways so s'okay

[Frodnon]

Should check the update notes they give a vague idea of what they did. FC only gained "Accuracy varies with TP" so maybe cool on super evasive stuff? Should also add Eclipse Bite, Double Punch, and Chaotic Strike also gained in the same way with replicating ftps.

Think testing is still being done (and people not really bothering with lower lvl ones) but a lot of the dmg varies with tp ones gained a bit too at higher tps ie Double Punch, Rock Buster, Mountain Buster, Tail Whip, Axe Kick, Blindside, Crescent Fang, and Eclipse Bite.

The various crit hit rate ones also gained a lot when not capping pdif but otherwise meh... but most those were multihit ones that gained replicating ftp anyways so s'okay

SE said during the digest that the only change to FC was the accuracy increase due to TP. So largely it's unchanged unless you're in an acc starved situation.

[Alhanelem]

SE said during the digest that the only change to FC was the accuracy increase due to TP. So largely it's unchanged unless you're in an acc starved situation.
All multi-hit BP gained an adjustment that should increase overall damage output.

[Frodnon]

All multi-hit BP gained an adjustment that should increase overall damage output.

as posted on the JP side of this forum and translated by BG.

I’ve been testing Flaming Crush since the patch and I feel like it’s actually weaker than before. What’s up?
Flaming Crush’s only adjustment has been to TP’s influence on accuracy. It should be noted that Flaming Crush has a unique method behind its damage calculation. After the physical damage has been calculated, it goes through a fire-elemental adjustment. This adjustment may be resisted, so that may lead to variable damage.


How does this adjustment affect the damage in comparison to how it was before?
At 0 TP, they will have the same performance as they did before the patch. The TP adjustments are pure bonuses.

Players can only crit with critical Weapon Skills, but how do Avatar skills work?
Before this patch, they would occur.
Criticals occur on attacking Blood Pacts regardless of the type of TP correction.

[Urmom]

All multi-hit BP gained an adjustment that should increase overall damage output.

Sort of... but some of those were just acc or critical hit rate. If you already capping hit rate the extra wont do much and if you were already capping pdif crit hit rates wont do much either

[Fae]

Papesse updated everyone as soon as the patch rolled out:


Damage bonus at 3k TP
Rock Buster : +300%~
Mountain Buster : +50%
Crescent Fang : +400%~
Eclipse Bite : +50%
Blindside : +100%
Enticer's Pants beats Apogee Slacks +1 (Path D) at 0% TP for all these BPs.

Apex Jagils with BP DMG+153% and EA/BoG Frailty, Dia IV, Beast Roll.
Pre update
Volt Strike : 35~36k, 41~44k with AF
Predator Claws : 26~28k
Rush : 18k~
Eclipse Bite : 20k~

Post update
Volt Strike : 41~42k, 51~53k with AF
Predator Claws : 29~30k
Rush : 20~21k
Eclipse Bite : 21~23k


Then further discussion and testing was done for OAT affecting the pacts that were listed to have damage carry through on all hits:


The damage adjustments to the following Blood Pacts: Rage will now apply to all hits.

Eclipse Bite / Double Punch / Predator Claws / Rush / Chaotic Strike / Volt Strike


Only those will be affected meaingfully by OAT and here is the results using Volt Strike:



Small sample of my results (Apex Jagils, capped pDIF) :

318 tp return
41749
41956
41895
42100
42036
With AF :
51416
50998
51651
53200
51408

424 (DA proc)
55251
55681
54814
54843
55784
With AF :
68119
68166
68382
71160

530 (TA proc)
68980
69640
69418
69159
With AF :
85597

Volt Strike becomes essentialy a 4~5 hits BP with a DA/TA proc, in my case each hit does about 14k~ dmg and 17k~ with AF. The scariest part is I'm very confident that I can deal similar dmg on some of the strongest NMs in the game where the level correction isn't applied.


TL;DR It's a buff in every way, shape and form. If you get lower damage numbers using multihit bps it is because you are killing mobs before all hits land. This is a straight out buff to SMN and while it may take a bit of understanding to see how and why, you should be very happy about it, it's a very significant boost. Take Volt Strike for example it went from 41~44k capped damage to 51k~85k depending on OAT procs. That's an over 40% damage boost to Volt Strike for Nirvana owners if you can get AM3 up in optimal conditions.


SE Also said this on the JP Forums:

We also wish to note that because we have attempted to average out the damage of multi-hit Blood Pacts, when testing on very low level enemies, players may see lower numbers than before due to a weakened first hit. (Against monsters which can take all hits, players will notice an overall improvement)

If players still feel there are issues with the performance of Blood Pacts, we would appreciate continued feedback.

My feedback is this: This update was phenomenal for SMN and gave Nirvana a lot more use due to the unique AM3 mechanic. I think adding TP Bonuses to physical pacts also helps diversify our choices letting us use more than just a few physical BPs. Overall a great update for SMN thank you SE :)