BLU Balance

[Fae]

It comes up frequently on other community forums and am rather surprised it hasn't been posted on the official forums.

In my LS and gameplay I frequently see people abandoning jobs they loved and played for many years to play BLU instead. The reasons for this are multiple, but in my view this isn't much different than when SAM were played so much and 1 hand jobs were given a boost, then too many THF were played and THF was nerfed and then too many people played BST and beast was nerfed. The balance needs restored again or the majority of players in the game might end up playing BLU as one of their active jobs, and that isn't very balanced at all especially considering most people can have time to gear and maintain 3 jobs to endgame levels at most. If this isn't enough proof, look at the number of almaces being made at a sickening rate.

I see its problems as these four points:
1) It has huge aoe nukes, even better than dedicated nuking jobs like BLM. One reason BST was nerfed was it could farm experience points and job points so well, solo. Well, BLU can do this and much more.
2) It has huge soloing potential. I feel one reason BST was nerfed was it could do solo VD battlefields. They can clear those with lots of temps, 1 hours, and high degrees of skill and still take over 10 minutes. BLU is soloing some VD fights in much less time.
3) It can self haste cap, and needs less buffs. The director in the reddit AMA said they didn't want any job to be able to self haste cap as a DD as it is a group game, yet BLU can.
4) It is extremely survivable while also doing great DPS, there is very little tradeoff.

I think this could be solved in a multitude of ways, but am sure SE is able to think of many ways themselves this could be solved. Here are some suggestions I do not expect to be implemented but hope the ideas can help:
A) Nerf their AoE damage. A BLU shouldn't aoe for more than a BLM, let alone have status effects that go on with it that completely disables the entire crowd giving almost no risk even if you don't one shot them.
B) Make them choose more between damage and survivability rather than having both at the same time. This could be accomplished with changes to things like barrier tusk, occultation, cocoon and other defensive spells or by increasing the point costs on extremely good defensive or offensive spells to make them have to choose their role more carefully rather than just be very good at everything. It also means BLU can just go all out and not worry about getting hate from the tank. In fact many setups won't even use a tank they just let BLU do it, and not even change their loaded spells to be more defensive at the cost of damage.
C) Remove haste from MG, the biggest reason to require GEO or BRD in a party is hastecap for DD. As was stated in the AMA, this is a group game. This will also limit their solo potential some as they will be more limited in trusts as every other DD is.
D) Compare their damage output to their versatility and utility, if a change in damage is needed then do it. Though it should be noted that the main draw of BLU isn't that it is the strongest DPS, it's that it is so good of DPS while the rest of this is true and that for the most part due to survival it is rather foolproof and easy to accomplish.

I apologize in advance for posting a topic that will likely require moderation due to flaring passions and people throwing insults around especially by BLU players who enjoy the benefits of the job and do not wish for a nerf, at the same time I feel this is a big issue in the game currently and feel it needs to be posted, the game itself suffers if there is a huge job imbalance and there most definitely is at all levels of play. I think there is a lack of challenging content in the game vs the overall content of the game, and feel it is a lot more work to buff a ton of jobs rather than nerf the one causing the problem. Nerfs do make some of the player base upset, but so does a game where balance problems are left unchecked. I'm sure some BST, THF and SAM quit as a result of changes, but at the same time I doubt it was many and for that same reason only. A new bandwagon job may eventually emerge, but that doesn't mean balance shouldn't be actively maintained. This issue is brought up time and time again on community websites because it is a very obvious issue to players and cause for concern.

[Meril]

Idk man... even the blu's are acknowledging they are op... it's time for some adjusting....

[Urmom]

It was actually kind of jokingly brought up back when bst was about to/was nerfed because most the arguments used why bst was op applied to blu and then some

[OmnysValefor]

1) It has huge aoe nukes, even better than dedicated nuking jobs like BLM. One reason BST was nerfed was it could farm experience points and job points so well, solo. Well, BLU can do this and much more.

Noone cares how fast BST could farm experience point (btw, can still do it just as fast). BST got nerfed because they could stand at max range and do maximum damage with, in a wide array of circumstances, maybe the most potent 1hr in the game. The pet had 3x the hp of players and the master was wearing pet -dt gear most of the time.

2) It has huge soloing potential. I feel one reason BST was nerfed was it could do solo VD battlefields. They can clear those with lots of temps, 1 hours, and high degrees of skill and still take over 10 minutes. BLU is soloing some VD fights in much less time.

I don't understand the point of soloing these fights, you're still taking more time than with other players, no matter how good you are. Even if the other players are your mules, you're silly if you're not using them.

I don't solo much on BLU, but then I don't solo much on anything. I play MMOs to play with people.

The BLUs who I know of that do solo respectable things (on other servers) are very very very geared. They spend millions with Oseem looking for a slightly better augment than a very good one that they have.

3) It can self haste cap, and needs less buffs. The director in the reddit AMA said they didn't want any job to be able to self haste cap as a DD as it is a group game, yet BLU can.

I can agree with this, though MG and entrusted indi-haste (entrusted spells don't gain from geomancy enhancing gear) or one march from a bard. If you don't have a SMN or RDM (which isn't common in a lot of groups. Neither is bard.).

4) It is extremely survivable while also doing great DPS, there is very little tradeoff.

Please list the tradeoffs. I know what they are but I'd love for you to. A lot of what people talk about BLU being capable of are in separate fights "This BLU topped DPS" (your other DPS players are probably far lesser geared or the mob has a weakness to swords) "This BLU killed the adds", "This BLU has higher accuracy than anyone else."

Edit: Accuracy issue, which used to be a notable advantage for BLU is largely irrelevant since the AGI nerfs. My PLD in tanking gear has pretty good acc against most things when I use acc food. I used to say BLU's biggest advantage was being able to hit the boss while survivable enough to stand near the boss but that survivability--either due to gear or spells, does cost dps. In the case of spells, it also costs dps while recasting the spell.

One of blu's weaknesses if that the buff-magics really don't last very long. No complaints though.

[Ataraxia]

Here comes to hate toward Blu Mage. Now it's no different than the BST nerf and Rudra Storm. Their shouldn't be anymore Nerf to job but only buffer and improvement to weapon skill that suck really bad like Exenterator and Shijin Spiral. I am sure their are many others weapon skill that need buffer at this point. :/

[Sirmarki]

1)I play MMOs to play with people.

People, what are they?

https://s9.postimg.org/82jnjwfj3/Sir161018221636a.jpg

[Vae]

Here comes to hate toward Blu Mage. Now it's no different than the BST nerf and Rudra Storm. Their shouldn't be anymore Nerf to job but only buffer and improvement to weapon skill that suck really bad like Exenterator and Shijin Spiral. I am sure their are many others weapon skill that need buffer at this point. :/

In all fairness, Rudra's was extremely broken. We (I) acknowledged this, there were ENTIRELY too many bandwagons.

BST was extremely broken, the nerf was completely unfair to the way it was broken though.

BLU right now is extremely imbalanced. the traits are highly excessive.

But let's be honest, pup right now is extremely broken too. So is geo. So is immanence. So is enmity zero 100k nukes. Everything is out of whack right now.

[Diavolo]

In all fairness, Rudra's was extremely broken. We (I) acknowledged this, there were ENTIRELY too many bandwagons.

BST was extremely broken, the nerf was completely unfair to the way it was broken though.

BLU right now is extremely imbalanced. the traits are highly excessive.

But let's be honest, pup right now is extremely broken too. So is geo. So is immanence. So is enmity zero 100k nukes. Everything is out of whack right now.

Something's broken, but it's not the jobs people are complaining about.

[Olor]

I'd rather see jobs buffed at this point than jobs nerfed.

[Urmom]

I'd rather see jobs buffed at this point than jobs nerfed.

Or unerfed *cough bst*


BST got nerfed because they could stand at max range and do maximum damage with, in a wide array of circumstances, maybe the most potent 1hr in the game. The pet had 3x the hp of players and the master was wearing pet -dt gear most of the time.
While technically true half the jobs in the game could stand at the same range without hurting their dmg where hp/dt didn't matter except for autos and avatars but the former is extremely durable for similar reasons and the latter is expendable (though technically it could gear for dt as well but few did).

Interestingly enough both those pet jobs also have amazing sps I'd actually argue smns is better than bst since it's effectively the same thing but avatars have more powerful moves. Unless you need to AoE stuff than lolthunderspark

[OmnysValefor]

While technically true half the jobs in the game could stand at the same range without hurting their dmg where hp/dt didn't matter except for autos and avatars but the former is extremely durable for similar reasons and the latter is expendable (though technically it could gear for dt as well but few did).

Interestingly enough both those pet jobs also have amazing sp2s I'd actually argue smns is better than bst since it's effectively the same thing but avatars have more powerful moves. Unless you need to AoE stuff than lolthunderspark

I don't recall, but I think BST could stand farther away. I know they could stand a little farther back because they had to be in range of pet, not the enemy. I just can't recall just how far Readies could be used from (last time I played BST was aby besides a few weeks of renewed interest--something to gain-exp on).

Til the recent changes, one of the problems I had with balance is that SCH and BLMs could idle -50% DT and bust out megaton-sized nukes by flipping gear for a second. Melee were frequently struggling to stand near the boss and hit the boss. The AGI changes have helped that some.

RNG and COR weren't quite so priveleged. You had to meet the same acc demands as melee (easier for RNG) and wanted useful traits like Store TP.

[Tidis]

For me the main difference between BST and BLU is that it wasn't just the top ones soloing what is intended to be party content, even your moderately geared BST was clearing these fights. I have no problem with someone being able to solo content they really shouldn't be able to as long as they are the exceptional cases, not the norm. But as SE have shown they are very bad at nerfing jobs and nearly always take it too far on the nerf side.

Your average BLU isn't soloing VD content, your very well geared, spent millions to upgrade BLUs are doing it.

[Fae]

I had someone in my LS come back after 4 months away and solo a VD avatar on BLU, who has no HQ abjurations and no RMEA. While it wasn't as good a clear time as the really pumped up BLU, I don't think it's true to say only amazingly geared BLU can do it. It also does not at all address all the other reasons when I /sea all BLU it is now the most played job a lot of hours of the day and growing every day. Lets do a small census right now to prove the point doing a search for 99 level jobs:
86 BLU
47 THF
33 BST
27 NIN
26 PLD
25 GEO
22 RDM
22 BLM
21 SCH
19 WAR
19 COR
15 WHM
14 MNK
12 DNC
10 BRD
9 RUN
7 SAM
6 PUP
6 DRK
5 SMN
4 DRG
4 RNG

Now while this data shouldn't be regarded as law, it is indicative. I'd expect more DDs than support, healer and tanks on at any time for example, and I'd expect jobs that are more helpful at lower levels to be more popular (such as THF for farming dynamis, or bst for farming salvage) and jobs that are one of the core 6 jobs to also be more popular as they've been around the longest and given when you start without questing. Some of this could perhaps be mitigated by also searching for people that are rank 10 but, I think this data is good enough and tends to hold true almost all hours of the day, and BLU keeps pulling further and further ahead.

In my LS right now, we have 4 people working on almace and 3 ppl not long ago gave up long career jobs to instead put those aside for many months now and work on BLU. This is a trend that was true for a long time now. Any way you look at it (unless you're in denial) BLU is bandwagoing, and any player that is picking up BLU or chose to play BLU can give you a very long list of those reasons if they are being honest. Those reasons need to be more balanced with what other jobs can offer to remain a healthy balanced game. As stated in the OP, buffing every other DD in the game is not an answer it will make the challenging content we have left easier, and it is much, much, much harder to accurately adjust 11+ jobs than it is to balance one that is causing an issue. It is not good for FFXI in any form to have one job become so favored, even if you do not agree with the balance statements, which I think are spot on.

[Diavolo]

We are more to blame for BLU's popularity than the development team is. We are the ones coming to the forums complaining that BLU is too powerful. We are the ones posting videos of BLU clearing most content without also presenting alternatives. What do you think the new/casual/returning players see when they log onto these forums to get an idea of how to play the game? Reap what you sow... and we've sown a field full of BLU talk/videos.

Change the discussion, change the game.

[Fae]

Name me one other job that can solo VD avatar, merit in 10 mins due to being one of the best cleavers in the game, self haste cap as DD so needs two less trusts to function well, and out survive all but dedicated tanks while doing top end DPS. It has everything to do with the tools and how strong they are, people that know the game very well are changing to BLU because they realize it is stronger and makes the game easier for them, people follow their lead because they see the results of that. It isn't bandwagoned because of hollow arguments like you are making, and it isn't requested to constantly be nerfed by tons of people because of that either. It is bandwagoning and called for a nerf because it has too much power in one place. Have a magic spell load out for cleaving, have a DD set and be very survivable, self spam CDC for light. This also creates problems that BLU players will not let other DD join, because they know other DD require more buffs. It is easier to just get 2 BLU to DD and then benefit from more buffs from the support that aid damage and have greater flexibility in setups. Due to their survival even on t4 reisenjima mobs you can even cut out dedicated tanks. The issue isn't that other jobs can't clear the same content, with exception to soloing VD avatars in so fast of a speed (3-4 mins isn't uncommon) it is that they can do everything easier which gets more people to play it. Personally, I'm sick of seeing BLU everywhere, this game has 22 jobs, they should be more balanced.

There are great DRK, SMN, and pretty much every other job videos out there. People don't pick BLU because of the conversation and it's not just happenstance we are having this conversation, we're having this conversation because except for BLU players who wish to deny this which for any nerf there are always deniers and almost all of them play the job being nerfed, most everyone else recognizes it is a problem. BLU can't shave 20 minutes off every set of merit bcnm fights because the player is more skilled, they do it because their AoE is ridiculous. They don't solo VD avatar because all BLU players are more skilled than people that play other jobs, they do it because their self capping haste, damage + survival stacks it far into their favor. They don't push out other DD jobs in setups because all BLU are just so much more friendly and good of players, or because of youtube videos or a lack of skilled players on other jobs, they do it because they make fights easier if they do. They don't bandwagon because of anything other than they make the game easier for you if you play BLU, it is the path of least resistance to change jobs to BLU rather than try to play 3-4 other jobs that may or may not perform at the same level as BLU in the same content. BLU is an objectively easier choice to make to play. That isn't why DRK mains that played DRK for 12 years gave up their job to play BLU or why when people are deciding what job to DD as they pick BLU or why more and more play BLU every day. It is a balance issue and a nerf is absolutely necessary to correct this.

Even before mighty guard and the new aoe spells were added, BLU was bandwagoning, now it's just worse than ever. If you play BLU you don't need haste support, a cleaving job, a defensive survivable DD, a DD that does great damage, and even in a lot of cases an enfeebler (using gravity on this month's ambuscade frog for example), because BLU does all those things at once and most of them better than alternative options. Their survivability alone breaks many fight mechanics, and they don't even pay for it with lesser damage. When BLU is in a full DD set and their normal DD spell loadout tanking ilvl 150 mobs you're going to tell me the conversation has to change... BLU has to change or the game will be 90% BLU players because as it stands it is obviously the best choice.

[Gwydion]

I think what compounds the problem is the Job Point gifts for BLU, compared to other jobs, right?

I think a BLU is fine and every other job needs some re-work.

[Diavolo]

Name me one other job that can solo VD avatar

SCH soloing Shiva on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq5zAFU7alw)
RDM soloing Garuda on very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIVJGKZgCvY)
SCH soloing Tenzen on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx9S39KpOSA)
SCH soloing Ark Angel Elvaan on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_nrxDAOcWI)
SCH soloing Ark Angel Tarutaru on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojFrwhSaHsI)
BST soloing Garuda on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4e6_I-8Ivs)
SCH soloing Sinister Reign. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uq_tz3kc9I)

And that was found in a very quick Youtube search, there are plenty more examples of jobs other than BLU soloing some of the more challenging content in FFXI.



merit in 10 mins due to being one of the best cleavers in the game

PLD easily soloing merits/100 JP/hour. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwbAJVJMX8E)



people that know the game very well are changing to BLU because they realize it is stronger and makes the game easier for them, people follow their lead because they see the results of that. It isn't bandwagoned because of hollow arguments like you are making,

You just proved my point.

These discussions, in addition to being frequent here and elsewhere, too often paint BLU as being god-like, so is it any wonder a greater number of players are playing the job? It's a jack of all trades and always has been. Yes, it's capable of doing just about anything, but your claims are ridiculous. BLU is by no means an ideal tank for Reisenjima T4s.

How much time have you invested in the job?

[Jakuk]

SCH soloing Shiva on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq5zAFU7alw)
RDM soloing Garuda on very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIVJGKZgCvY)
SCH soloing Tenzen on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx9S39KpOSA)
SCH soloing Ark Angel Elvaan on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_nrxDAOcWI)
SCH soloing Ark Angel Tarutaru on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojFrwhSaHsI)
BST soloing Garuda on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4e6_I-8Ivs)
SCH soloing Sinister Reign. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uq_tz3kc9I)

And that was found in a very quick Youtube search, there are plenty more examples of jobs other than BLU soloing some of the more challenging content in FFXI.

BST got nerfed for the reason of their soloing despite it always being a solo job from day one.

It's not really that no job can do it, but no job can do it without taking a hit in one method, ex. much longer kill time, whereas BLU can do it while losing out on literally nothing, same kill speed, same safety etc....

Though personally, my only problem with BLU is the fact they can cap Magic Haste yet are a DD, remove Haste from Mighty Guard and I'd be fine with it.

[Fae]

SCH soloing Shiva on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq5zAFU7alw)
RDM soloing Garuda on very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIVJGKZgCvY)
SCH soloing Tenzen on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx9S39KpOSA)
SCH soloing Ark Angel Elvaan on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_nrxDAOcWI)
SCH soloing Ark Angel Tarutaru on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojFrwhSaHsI)
BST soloing Garuda on Very Difficult. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4e6_I-8Ivs)
SCH soloing Sinister Reign. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uq_tz3kc9I)

And that was found in a very quick Youtube search, there are plenty more examples of jobs other than BLU soloing some of the more challenging content in FFXI.




PLD easily soloing merits/100 JP/hour. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwbAJVJMX8E)




You just proved my point.

These discussions, in addition to being frequent here and elsewhere, too often paint BLU as being god-like, so is it any wonder a greater number of players are playing the job? It's a jack of all trades and always has been. Yes, it's capable of doing just about anything, but your claims are ridiculous. BLU is by no means an ideal tank for Reisenjima T4s.

How much time have you invested in the job?

You clearly missed that the sentences parts you were quoting were a conjunction, combined by the word and, rather than or (or chose to, most likley). My own posts have mentioned other jobs can solo VD avatar, but BLU does it much quicker. So I have to assume that most of your reply is ignoring most of what I said because you don't want it to be true because you're actively trying to change what I say rather than making points on what I did say (such as saying BLU is ideal tank, which isn't something I said but since you brought it up, ya having one more party slot because BLU can effectively tank them is pretty ideal).

Lets paint a very accurate picture. The cases/boxes/parcels from BCNMs that always drop 2 in personal and 2 in the treasure pool on VD battlefields average as near as I can tell, as 15.75 per container. Even if I am off with that to a degree, it will hold true that BLU gets more:

BLU has great cleave, so remerit time is ~10 mins
BLU can solo VD avatar in sub 3 mins, we'll list it as 3mins
Rezone time is same for everyone but we'll say 1.5 mins.
You can do 7 runs.

Merit time= 10 mins
Fight time= 21 mins
Rezone time= 10.5 mins

From this a solo player gets 4*15.75 which sell for about 10k each, 7 times. So about 4.4mil in about 41.5 mins.

Compare this to BST
BST has great cleave, so remerit time is ~10 mins
BST can solo VD avatar but it's not consistent and takes 10 mins per fight
Rezone time = 10.5 mins

So BST would do the same BLU can do in 90.5 mins, over double the time, and thats assuming they win every time and have ways to reset 1 hour each time so that is REALLY optimistic.

Lets convert this to gil an hour. BLU= 6.3 mil an hour, BST=2.93 mil an hour

Lets try a typical DD:
Merit time=25-35 mins killing things one by one
Can't Solo VD avatar so has to to D, which singles drop from
Rezone time=10.5 mins

Worse in every way and I can't even really assign a number to it, other than know it's much worse off than BST.

Sure there are other ways to make gil, but as I've pointed out, they also push out other jobs in party setups due to their buffs, and are growing in popularity so rapidly because of reasons like these.

Lets say you group up for those same bcnms, you will get a 1 in 6 chance to get those same coffers, have similar clear and cleave times to BLU solo (you can get the fights down to about 1.5 mins with a group, but if your group doesn't have a cleave job BLU STILL pulls ahead of an endgame party, solo and I've had groups that due to lack of skillchain coordination, they still have longer than 4 min clear times). So you're looking at, on average, clearing about the same speed as blu but getting almost half the gil for it. This isn't even including other money drops in the pool, that the solo player will get all of.

BLU has more power, which leads to more power. Now just because you play BLU, everything is easier on you. You have lots of gil, you can do whatever you want all on one job, and you can even DD the hardest mobs in the game without a real tank. But the problem is CLEARLY that people just too dumb and bad to play other jobs and just follow the leader, even though as you've shown there's other examples on other jobs out there of great players for their job... and they still do it worse than BLU does. Gee I wonder why.

BLU is a problem solo, BLU is a problem in group setups and shutting out other jobs from being invited, BLU is a problem in that it is so played and imbalances other choices, BLU is a problem in that it can do so much so WELL on one job, jack of trades or hybrid shouldn't mean just better at the game in nearly every way, that's called overpowered. Think about the fact that t4 reisenjima, hate is being held by BLU simply from their damage, with their normal loadout tanking it. It's this same power that allows it to be so far ahead in so much content and make the game much easier on anyone that chooses to play it and that is broken. You say we need to change the conversation. You know what would do that very quickly? A really big nerf to blu. At the same time, it'd address the very obvious imblanced state BLU as it currently stands and once again widen job choices and make for a more healthy ffxi.

[Eckamus]

I personally don't really play BLU, sure I have it leveled and all, but meh. I only play it to get the spells and all for completion sake. Still missing most of those pesky Delve NM spells. Also I have done Intense VD Ambuscade this month without BLU on several occasions using RDM for Gravity II. Works just fine. Also bring WAR, DRK, SAM, MNK, etc... with 2 support GEO, BRD or COR and a PLD, still win in 2-2.5 minutes with buff time. This is without 1 hours also. So I don't see how BLU is overpowered in any respect concerning Ambuscade this month. I'm in a smaller LS, there are only 2-3 out of ~18-20 people that actively play BLU.

Some of the statements you make don't quite add up also, but like I said I don't really play BLU. Do you play BLU? I ask, cause it's sounds like you do not play the job.

I play PLD and GEO mainly and I can't say I have ever seen a BLU tank anything in Reisenjima beyond a T2. Even if they were to attempt it, I believe they would have to set all defensive type/trait spells. Leaving a severe lack of attack/accuracy as you can only set 20 spells or 80 points of spells (that's with merits/job points). Basically, leaving them lacking for a better word. So no matter how you look at it, you have to trade something off. You want to go pure DD setup your defensive/healing capabilities are gonna be cut short or nonexistent and vice versa.

You know they are all gonna turn into Flayers anyways.

[Zetaking]

@Fae well its funny you rate blu in a vacuum instead of how it works in group play, you make it sound like tank, blu, blu, blu, blu(or cor) geo is the god form of a DD party atm, tho that could not be further from the truth, the effects of stacking different jobs yields so much more run, blu, war,(whm rdm or sch depending) , geo(tho if you have a rdm as healer brd might be better), cor is the truest power house. In that set up if the war and rune have there aeonics no weapon combo the blu will have will let them win the dmg, in fact because of all the def down this set up would have and the power warcry will give, rune would without a shadow of a doubt crush the blu and war. Now all this is assuming top of the line gear JP ext

on your avatars points cant really fight it, blu was given some serious advantages to most DD's when it comes to weathering magic dmg, the next to fastest jobs for clearing it quickly tho, is rune and then rdm or pup(fear the people that know how to use this job) defiantly not bst, also i gotta ask how do you not go splat,on bst, to the 1hours i mean pup can be 2 miles away bst.... yea they get to hang 10 on the tidal wave >.>

@jakuk drk/rdm tho odd can nearly do it (25 gear 25 ja 15 magical), and dont have to nurf there tp to do it... maybe there attack some but yea... drk

[Traxus]

BLU can solo VD avatar in sub 3 mins, we'll list it as 3mins


No it can't lol, not even close. VD avatars are slow (and quite difficult) to solo on BLU since you need to tank up + cast shadows + contribute to healing yourself to even survive, and if trusts die to AoE you are probably done. If you really want to solo VD avatars there are better jobs for it like SCH, PUP, or RUN.

The only HTB that is worth farming for gil on solo BLU at all is tenzen, and that basically requires mythic (for mp to keep casting shadows) or using multiple MP meds every run. Even with AG mythic + near perfect gear it's about a 5-7 minute clear time when you include putting up buffs and trusts, not sub 3. Average BLUs can't solo this at all, let alone avatars.

[Kyte]

I can kill Tenzen in ~4:30 (from enter time) on BLU, and I can use any high end weapon for that. Tizona isn't specifically necessary- I've played around with doing it with Sequence and Almace as well and they both work out provided you're using King of Hearts for Refresh and Apururu for Devotion. However, someone who kills more slowly would probably run into MP issues.

Either way, exceptional proficiency at farming a single fight does not warrant a job nerf. BST is (still) quite good at soloing many of these as well and I don't really see people asking for that to be subject to further adjustment.

[Ataraxia]

In all fairness, Rudra's was extremely broken. We (I) acknowledged this, there were ENTIRELY too many bandwagons.

BST was extremely broken, the nerf was completely unfair to the way it was broken though.

BLU right now is extremely imbalanced. the traits are highly excessive.

But let's be honest, pup right now is extremely broken too. So is geo. So is immanence. So is enmity zero 100k nukes. Everything is out of whack right now.

Rudra's storm was only good if you use sneak attack or climactic flourish which is every 1 minute or 1 minute and 30 second. Rudra's storm can no longer be spam like a good weapon skill anymore. It's probably broken like you said because 3000 tp does too much damage. I think they shouldn't have nerf the 1000 tp Rudra's storm. As a Blue Mage I can do a whole lot every 5 second with Chant du Cygne. If you haven't play blue mage than you are missing out. No one really care about this job for 7 long years until now so best regard to Grekumah master of blue mage.

I have nothing against puppet master at this point or any other job because SE already nerf the entire game by lowing NM evasion. The summoner does 99,999 flaming crush and no one cares. People still use BLM, SCH, BST, WHM, RUN to clear Reisenjima helm NM which still is a challenge to some people. However, the elite have no problem clearing them and tons of Aeonic Weapon are being made weekly and monthly in some LS.

[Ataraxia]

I'd rather see jobs buffed at this point than jobs nerfed.


I agree other job needed Buff. Nerfing a Blu Mage at this point is like taking the very soul of a Tarutaru and removing it existence from FFXI. We all know when a Tarutaru is happy more money for SE and more subscriber. Akihiko Matsui knows this best of all because he is a Tarutaru... =)

[Kyte]

Rudra's storm was only good if you use sneak attack or climactic flourish which is every 1 minute or 1 minute and 30 second. Rudra's storm can no longer be spam like a good weapon skill anymore. It's probably broken like you said because 3000 tp does too much damage. I think they shouldn't have nerf the 1000 tp Rudra's storm.

If you're using a Moonshade like you should be (plus potentially Aeneas), then there's no such thing as a 1k TP Rudra's.

[Urmom]

I don't recall, but I think BST could stand farther away. I know they could stand a little farther back because they had to be in range of pet, not the enemy. I just can't recall just how far Readies could be used from (last time I played BST was aby besides a few weeks of renewed interest--something to gain-exp on).

Til the recent changes, one of the problems I had with balance is that SCH and BLMs could idle -50% DT and bust out megaton-sized nukes by flipping gear for a second. Melee were frequently struggling to stand near the boss and hit the boss. The AGI changes have helped that some.

RNG and COR weren't quite so priveleged. You had to meet the same acc demands as melee (easier for RNG) and wanted useful traits like Store TP.

Further than what? It was more or less same as max cast distance. I say more or less because mob and pet sizes can change things slightly. Which is slightly less than ranged attack distance.

But yeah I fully acknowledge meleeing held significant risk but that didn't really apply to nukers like you mentioned. Generally though melees were sacrificing safety for dps but with current meta not always the case

I wouldn't really give rng/cor passes because of acc since well so did the pet jobs but could also get buffs for it too. That said ranged damage has other problems that hold the amount of dps they can deal back... namely the ~1 delay between shots that isn't effected by snapshot at all really slows tping down. And the huge pdif update they did to help bring melees and autos pdifs more on par with well bst pets basically increased ranged pdif at all to the point melee is actually higher for the first time in game history. They even somewhat acknowledge it was a problem... with the rng automaton and increased it by about 60% but ignored ranged attacks for players <.<. Of course if you change things up and are able to buff/debuff for it and aren't against nms that it doesn't work well on leaden salute/true flight can help you kind of ignore the meh pdif thing but it takes more work than most often think it's worth. Whatever Gastraphetes 4 lyfe!

[OmnysValefor]

Further than what? It was more or less same as max cast distance. I say more or less because mob and pet sizes can change things slightly. Which is slightly less than ranged attack distance.

I don't recall if Readies were usable from outside casting distance. BG says 18' (still lol), so that was probably the maximum. But yeah, being able to stand off the flank of your pet on some particularly large mobs (which many bosses are) could give you the range to avoid aoes meant to hit the group. It's no different than healers standing at max casting distance on the tank and barely edging out of some aoes.


But yeah I fully acknowledge meleeing held significant risk but that didn't really apply to nukers like you mentioned. Generally though melees were sacrificing safety for dps but with current meta not always the case

I wouldn't really give rng/cor passes because of acc since well so did the pet jobs but could also get buffs for it too

One of us is misunderstanding the other. You seem to be thinking that I was saying rng/cor had things easy. I'm saying they were safer than melee frequently but because they couldn't just fire away in -DT gear (they'd miss). Sure core and SCH have regain buffs, but you'd be a madman the wait exclusively on those.

BSTs were effectively ranged DD with no risk or opportunity cost except for time (and not even that during Unleash)

---

I hope Nerfs aren't coming to BLU because I like the utility of it and a lot of players do. I can do good damage (not the best, most pure DPS can wreck me) and provide support to my group. I genuinely think it represents more of a problem that a job can be effectively replaced because of someone having one spell (RDM) than someone else having that spell. A good look at the support role of red mage would be nice, and perhaps the gear available to them. With Temper/Temper II, it could be quite awesome to see RDM on good melee gear.

It's a shrinking game. The prevalence of certain jobs (GEO, BLU, WHM, PLD, RUN, SCH, BLM, THF) aren't why you don't see Red Mages, Bards, or Monks. The state of RDM, BRD, and MNK is why you don't see them. (Yes, I know Honor March is awesome. Most Bards don't have Honor March, most RDM don't have HQ carmine and access to the necessary gear to be "pretty good").

In spammable content like Ambuscade frog, probably the most useful mage is SMN for Hastega II. Sure it won't take a decent RDM long to pass out hastes, but it's slower than a BLU or SMN. When you're doing the content dozens of times, 30 more seconds matters.

I don't play with any great SAM. I play with great players that dust their good SAMs off sometimes, but it seems like a glance at Overwhelm could definitely be in order. At 75, most tanks didn't have much in -DT gear and took hits about as hard as the melee with them (Sorry, defense was mediocre at 75), it wasn't necessarily a death sentence to stand next to the PLD. A lot of cases with SAM now, it is.

I've never been in a 3 blu or 4 blu group. I run with a BLU friend frequently, and it's not favoritism towards the job (I kinda wanna play DNC...), it's that Rudra's and CDC don't SC. DNC + DNC would probably outdamage BLU + BLU if you take out all the skillchains your missing. It's not so much that we try to skillchain (we don't) but incidental free damage is nice. Sure we could evisc + CDC or RS + Requiescat but both of those require using generally inferior weaponskills. When I'm farming content (which is what most the game is these days)--Ambuscade, HTBF, lower-tier escha NMs, any random grind, I want to kill as fast as possible and compatible WSs and their incidental SCs is probably the fastest.

I don't doubt ALL BLU groups happen, because people are dumb, but something is lost to that sort of stacking.

Is there some clever mechanic to frog that noone has figured out that makes it reasonable to chip away at the frog? It doesn't matter if there is, the fight is bothersome after the first few times, all players are going to go to the quickest route and this month that happens to be BLU/BLM. BLU hasn't, in my experience, been anything special in most Ambuscades so far (Regular or Intense).

[Urmom]

One of us is misunderstanding the other. You seem to be thinking that I was saying rng/cor had things easy. I'm saying they were safer than melee frequently but because they couldn't just fire away in -DT gear (they'd miss). Sure core and SCH have regain buffs, but you'd be a madman the wait exclusively on those.

BSTs were effectively ranged DD with no risk or opportunity cost except for time (and not even that during Unleash)


Oh I see. Sure that's true... except they could shoot farther away than bst could ready(hell farther than you can cast) so I'm not really sure what your point is as they would had even lower risk (only gotta dt for 1) and about same opportunity costs (dat 5-15% true shot. Not valid on magical ws or additional effects but pets still were getting hit with all kinds of stuff that had some albeit reduced effects on dps). They are just worse at damage for a few reasons which I already covered

Plus you switch gear mid shot anyways... though if you really wanted to I guess you could make a racc/dt/pdt set. Ambuscade is actually kind of good for that if it was ever somehow necessary. Which is what bst often did since the pet still needed acc and dt. The main difference was to an extent you could a little bit macro around some but it did come at some cost to your pet

[Fae]

No it can't lol, not even close
Yes it can as that is close, you were proven wrong in the very next post by someone who plays BLU. Tenzen is also a slower fight due to SAM and PLD 1 hours. I guess knowing multiple BLU who funded RMEA and abjurations that way means I'm imagining things just because you can't do it. All of this of course ignores also everything else that was said on BLU popularity, this is one example and one of many reasons BLU is bandwagoning due to its power.



Either way, exceptional proficiency at farming a single fight does not warrant a job nerf. BST is (still) quite good at soloing many of these as well and I don't really see people asking for that to be subject to further adjustment.

Oh so multiple BCNMs is one fight and one example is all the reasons that were presented, and making more less than half the gil an hour is "quite good".



I hope Nerfs aren't coming to BLU because I like the utility of it and a lot of players do. I can do good damage (not the best, most pure DPS can wreck me) and provide support to my group. I genuinely think it represents more of a problem that a job can be effectively replaced because of someone having one spell (RDM) than someone else having that spell. A good look at the support role of red mage would be nice, and perhaps the gear available to them. With Temper/Temper II, it could be quite awesome to see RDM on good melee gear.

It's a shrinking game. The prevalence of certain jobs[...]

Nerfs have to come to BLU or those SAM you never play with, you never will. The prevalence of BLU is because it has bandwagon'd to historic levels, and the amount of reasons to pick it over other options are so overwhelming everyone else is making that choice too. I'm sure you and many other players enjoy being OP, it doesn't make it good for the game balance or job variety in the game at all though, take your bitter pill, swallow your medicine. SAM, BST, THF, and if you want to go further into the past pretty much every job have all taken theirs when it was their time be a big boy now, it's good for the games health.


Census #2:
93 BLU
59 THF
38 BST
37 BLM
31 GEO
25 WHM
21 NIN
19 RDM
17 COR
17 DNC
15 SCH
16 PLD
14 RUN
12 MNK
9 BRD
8 DRK
8 SAM
6 SMN
5 WAR
5 PUP
4 DRG
3 RNG

Looking pretty familiar as always, #NerfBLU

[Diavolo]

Yo, listen up, here's a story,
About a little guy that lives in a BLU world.
And all day and all night and everything he sees,
Is just BLU.

I'm BLU da ba dee da ba daa
I'm BLU da ba dee da ba daa (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blue+music+video)

Remove a little salt from your diet by taking advantage of all the game has to offer, including BLU.

[Jakuk]

I hope Nerfs aren't coming to BLU because I like the utility of it and a lot of players do. I can do good damage (not the best, most pure DPS can wreck me) and provide support to my group. I genuinely think it represents more of a problem that a job can be effectively replaced because of someone having one spell (RDM) than someone else having that spell. A good look at the support role of red mage would be nice, and perhaps the gear available to them. With Temper/Temper II, it could be quite awesome to see RDM on good melee gear.

Part of me would love to see RDM in melee gear, but another part of me fears it could then see them the next bandwagon job.


Yo, listen up, here's a story,
About a little guy that lives in a BLU world.
And all day and all night and everything he sees,
Is just BLU.

I'm BLU da ba dee da ba daa
I'm BLU da ba dee da ba daa (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blue+music+video)

Remove a little salt from your diet by taking advantage of all the game has to offer, including BLU.

Makes sense, instead of asking for a change to allow you to play the job you want, just hop on the bandwagon.

[Diavolo]

Makes sense, instead of asking for a change to allow you to play the job you want, just hop on the bandwagon.

What's stopping you from playing any of the 22 jobs?

One of my friends was recently playing RDM, another even whips out MNK sometimes and it's at the bottom of the barrel right now. Play what you like. If the people you play with won't allow you to do that then find more open minded people to play with. Many of the players on the more quiet servers claim the low population isn't a detriment to way they play the game. Well, this would be a good time to prove it.

I've been playing since March '04 with a couple of extended breaks in recent years. I know better than to hope for changes to come quickly, so I take advantage of the here and now.

[Vae]

What's stopping you from playing any of the 22 jobs?

One of my friends was recently playing RDM, another even whips out MNK sometimes and it's at the bottom of the barrel right now. Play what you like. If the people you play with won't allow you to do that then find more open minded people to play with. Many of the players on the more quiet servers claim the low population isn't a detriment to way they play the game. Well, this would be a good time to prove it.

I've been playing since March '04 with a couple of extended breaks in recent years. I know better than to hope for changes to come quickly, so I take advantage of the here and now.

Nothing physically stops you from playing other jobs. It's that it's inefficient (by more than an acceptable amount) to go on any job that isn't at least as good as blu. I'd like nothing more than to always be able to go on my main and favorite job. But it's unfair to the people I'm going with to make them work harder to make up for my loss in dps by not being on BLU.

Now some people don't grasp that concept. BLU is literally people just being polite. Realizing that other peoples time is valuable and it's the highest chance of success, because it's so obscenely imbalanced.

[Diavolo]

Nothing physically stops you from playing other jobs. It's that it's inefficient (by more than an acceptable amount) to go on any job that isn't at least as good as blu. I'd like nothing more than to always be able to go on my main and favorite job. But it's unfair to the people I'm going with to make them work harder to make up for my loss in dps by not being on BLU.

Now some people don't grasp that concept. BLU is literally people just being polite. Realizing that other peoples time is valuable and it's the highest chance of success, because it's so obscenely imbalanced.

Are we not playing a video game when we log into FFXI? This isn't a job. You aren't going to lose your ability to continue playing if you take 15-30 seconds longer to complete a battle on a different job. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not logging into FFXI to make money as fast as possible with a boss judging your every move.

There are 22 jobs in this game and they will never be 100% equally balanced. Even if that utopian setting was possible (what a frighteningly boring image that paints) you still have to deal with a wide variety of skill levels from one player to the next. That's not a weakness, it's a strength. Why not accept it and take advantage of everything the game offers you?

[Eckamus]

You can play anything you want. Being on BLU doesn't mean you can do anything by any means. To be completely honest it depends primarily on the skill level of the people you play with, like Diavolo said. A good example is when I had to tell someone to step down to D Intense because the 2 BLU's we were running with were unable to kill it on VD. We did fine after that on D. They were LS mates and they don't play as often as everyone else. So we adjusted to fit their skill level. The other DD was MNK. Imagine that a MNK doing better than 2 BLU's, but by no means is MNK in a good spot. That job needs a lot of adjustment to fix it. That is a whole other topic though.

Also, I want to look at the Avatar fights. I really can't see any BLU doing them solo in ~3 min. Since they will likely die to the magic damage dealt. You need a GEO for Vex and Attunement, then you can do them in that time frame. Likely on more than just BLU. A lot of times people define it as solo, but it's really them and their mule. I can't say this is the case, but i see no other way a BLU or anything can solo those fights as a close quarters DD without a GEO. Please link a video if you actually have someone soloing it in that time frame. Would be interesting to see.

[Afania]

4) It is extremely survivable while also doing great DPS, there is very little tradeoff.



Since AH BLU discussion thread is locked so I'd like to chime in and provide some additional info and perspective on this part, which is BLU DPS.

Ever since people started this BLU balance discussion I've heard basically 2 side of story: "BLU DPS is so strong, and they have great survive-ability" and "WAR DRK SAM and possibly RUN is better DPS! BLU doesn't need a nerf!"

The 90% of time it'd turn into "If you can't outparse X job you suck" kinda conversation, with no numbers except parse result from people's friend circles.

So yesterday while we had another DPS discussion I took the opportunity and looked into the DPS gap between BLU and GS WAR.

Originally I had AG Almace/sequence BLU fall a bit behind AG Rag WAR(no MS), both blood rage up/war cry up situations. That being said, next day I have a bit more time to optimize sets and used better DD spell combo, BLU started to pull ahead of WAR in bloodrage up situations, although it's still behind WAR in warcry up situations the difference aren't big.

Using 500 enhancing buffs, 46% chaos, frailty/fury and No.7 SAM roll:
WAR(Bloodrage) DPS 4823
WAR(Warcry) DPS 5904
WAR(JA down) DPS 4706

BLU DPS 5609

Considering Warcry has like 1 min(if I remember correctly with 119 head) duration in longer fights BLU would probably pull ahead, while in shorter fights I see WAR still wins.

And even in situations that favors WAR, which is warcry up, BLU still deal 95% of DPS of WAR. By comparison in 2014 BLU had lower than 95% of top DPS when I spreadsheeted the DPS hierarchy.

IMHO, a job with such survive-ability and versatility, shouldn't do 95% of DPS of WAR in niche situations that strongly favors WAR, and beats WAR most of the time. And WAR is actually one of the strongest "traditional heavy DD" job atm.

If BLU is a DPS only job, not a hybrid job, then the job balance issue doesn't exist.
If BLU is a hybrid job, but only does 70% of DPS of WAR, then the job balance issue doesn't exist as well.

But as it stands, regardless of how people try to make it sound like BLU is MUCH weaker than WAR thus justify the versatility, the fact is that BLU is on the same tier as WAR, the difference are so small that it doesn't really justify the versatility nor survive-ability IMO.

If someone has different opinion or different spreadsheet result feel free to share it prove me wrong(my result is probably not 100% accurate), but please keep the discussion civil thanks. Until then my stance about BLU having major advantage as DPS job doesn't change.

[Immortta]

No threads to nerf GEO and how it completely overshadows other buffers and is required for any serious fight
No threads to nerf BLM and how it was the top strategy for over a year for anything serious
No threads to nerf BST truly when they can still do the exact same thing they were doing before with a little care/prep

People still primarily use mage strats for the hardest NMs in the game or ranged strats in general, yet you are clamoring for a nerf to a job that does well in trash content for the most part. After the evasion nerf, people have slowly started bringing DD to zerg the bosses down, but the fights are so quick you won't see BLU topping the parse.

As for the OP:


I see its problems as these four points:
1) It has huge aoe nukes, even better than dedicated nuking jobs like BLM. One reason BST was nerfed was it could farm experience points and job points so well, solo. Well, BLU can do this and much more.
2) It has huge soloing potential. I feel one reason BST was nerfed was it could do solo VD battlefields. They can clear those with lots of temps, 1 hours, and high degrees of skill and still take over 10 minutes. BLU is soloing some VD fights in much less time.
3) It can self haste cap, and needs less buffs. The director in the reddit AMA said they didn't want any job to be able to self haste cap as a DD as it is a group game, yet BLU can.
4) It is extremely survivable while also doing great DPS, there is very little tradeoff.


1) BST can still farm those points just as fast as they used to. I'm not gonna disagree that BLM needs the aoe dmg reduction removed at this point. Other jobs are also capable of farming merits to cap that fast, as referenced by the PLD video. Farming EXP/Merits/JP fast shouldn't be the base for a nerf, many jobs in the past had this advantage.
2) Already brought up earlier in the thread, but tons of jobs can solo VD fights. Hell, you should be asking for a nerf to SCH and not BLU for that point. SCH can solo some fights that BLU can't, thats for sure.
3) Self cap haste is something everyone can achieve. Everyone has access to trusts, therefore you can be capped haste or a smidgen off on it. In party scenarios, outside of trusts, you can simply cast an indi-haste and all you lose is a small boost from another entrusted spell, which most lazy PUG GEO barely use the JA.
4) "Extremely survivable" is a huge exaggeration, especially given the nerf to AOE dmg players take.

Your gil example is pretty poor too. I doubt BLU can consistently clear the VD avatars in under 3 minutes every single fight, have you even done it? There are also a ton of other ways to make more gil per hour, one of them being crafting. Yet I don't see you clamoring for a nerf to crafting and how grossly overpriced most of the ABJ gear is. Not going to list them all, but there are a lot of other ways to make gil on various jobs that doesn't involve BLU. Also, keep in mind you can clear the battles much quicker with MORE people and not less.

What Afania doesn't realize, casting those defensive buffs will lower DPS in any fight over 90s long. The hardest content (which is what you should be judging when determining a nerf) will last longer than that and thus see the BLU fall behind other DD. These benefits aren't even that much of a boost now that SE has nerfed AOE dmg considerably for anyone not the target of the AOE. Keep in mind, most of BLUs buffs can be given to the party just like other jobs.

[Afania]

What Afania doesn't realize, casting those defensive buffs will lower DPS in any fight over 90s long. The hardest content (which is what you should be judging when determining a nerf) will last longer than that and thus see the BLU fall behind other DD. These benefits aren't even that much of a boost now that SE has nerfed AOE dmg considerably for anyone not the target of the AOE. Keep in mind, most of BLUs buffs can be given to the party just like other jobs.

This is Draylo's alt yeah?

It's been discussed on AH.com already. Other jobs doesn't get the option to lower DPS to boost defense, outside of defender for WAR and /WAR people, which BLU can do too.

You sound like every BLU cocoon full time and lose every parse because of it, but the fact is they have the choice to not use cocoon and maintain top end DPS, and choose to use cocoon when the situations call for it.

You can't give out MG full time if the fight last too long or repeat pop, like you previously mentioned....longer fights. Unless you invite 2 BLUs or something, again, like AH discussion, this creates the scenario of MG mechanics making 2x BLU setup a lot more appealing thus filter out other melee DDs. the bold part is pretty much the main reason why BLU debate is being brought up on AH over and over.

There no real downside of using BLU, and their DPS is definitely not as bad as all the BLU main make it sound like unless I do something seriously wrong with WAR spreadsheet, or unless BLU sheet has incorrect ws forumla. If the situation calls for more defense, BLU can do it. If the situation calls for all out offense, BLU still keep up with 2h DDs. That's what people meant by "BLU has no downside", they don't necessary mean BLU can set every offense/defense job trait at once and cocoon full time or something. They simply mean in situations that need a melee DPS, using a BLU over other jobs like WAR MNK DRK SAM DRG has no penalty, while in situations that needs more defensive DD, BLU did way better than almost every other melee job except tanks.

[Immortta]

This is Draylo's alt yeah?


No I'm Immortta



It's been discussed on AH.com already. Other jobs doesn't get the option to lower DPS to boost defense, outside of defender for WAR and /WAR people, which BLU can do too.

You sound like every BLU cocoon full time and lose every parse because of it, but the fact is they have the choice to not use cocoon and maintain top end DPS, and choose to use cocoon when the situations call for it.

You can't give out MG full time if the fight last too long or repeat pop, like you previously mentioned....longer fights. Unless you invite 2 BLUs or something, again, like AH discussion, this creates the scenario of MG mechanics making 2x BLU setup a lot more appealing thus filter out other melee DDs. the bold part is pretty much the main reason why BLU debate is being brought up on AH over and over.

There no real downside of using BLU, and their DPS is definitely not as bad as all the BLU main make it sound like unless I do something seriously wrong with WAR spreadsheet, or unless BLU sheet has incorrect ws forumla. If the situation calls for more defense, BLU can do it. If the situation calls for all out offense, BLU still keep up with 2h DDs. That's what people meant by "BLU has no downside", they don't necessary mean BLU can set every offense/defense job trait at once and cocoon full time or something. They simply mean in situations that need a melee DPS, using a BLU over other jobs like WAR MNK DRK SAM DRG has no penalty, while in situations that needs more defensive DD, BLU did way better than almost every other melee job except tanks.


You can easily reset JA's now with a variety of methods, that is no concern. Also your concern is why SE needs to BUFF, other jobs. Notice how in your comparison its 1h vs 2hrs? Yes, 2h needs an update. You could say the same thing about DNC vs those other DD and get the same result. Those DD have come a little bit further (keep in mind they all have secondary benefits such as warcry, stun, SC properties and angon) but SE needs more buffs to them and only slight buffs. BLU has ALWAYS had the benefits you are stating, the extra defense and self buffs. They have always had this and a DD competitve edge since Abyssea, so your point is moot. We need BUFFS to 2h jobs, not a nerf to other jobs.

[Afania]

You can easily reset JA's now with a variety of methods, that is no concern. Also your concern is why SE needs to BUFF, other jobs. Notice how in your comparison its 1h vs 2hrs? Yes, 2h needs an update. You could say the same thing about DNC vs those other DD and get the same result. Those DD have come a little bit further (keep in mind they all have secondary benefits such as warcry, stun, SC properties and angon) but SE needs more buffs to them and only slight buffs. BLU has ALWAYS had the benefits you are stating, the extra defense and self buffs. They have always had this and a DD competitve edge since Abyssea, so your point is moot. We need BUFFS to 2h jobs, not a nerf to other jobs.


Regarding buff jobs, people already went over this on AH over and over.

1)It's less work to nerf 1 job and more work to buff 5+ jobs. From the reward ratio perspective they accomplish the same result with less work. With current dev team resource it only makes more sense to accomplish the result using less resource.

2)If SE buff every other DD to surpass BLU's DPS, the player community will obtain DPS power that's much stronger than what we currently have, thus making the content easier....when majority of them are already very easy. It only hurt the game as a whole.

3)Majority of DD job is currently quite "balanced" in terms of DPS, asides from MNK, PUP probably. If SE changed the DPS hierarchy and make BLU way inferior to 2h like 75 era, people aren't gonna be happy again.

Back when SAM and MNK was the top DD, there was demand in perfect DPS hierarchy balance, such as this post:


Lets play the number game! Here is the how the game work we take a Number ... Lets say 700,000. This being the Damage expected from every DD in a Delve (no these are not real numbers it is just an visual thing).
So For this Delve we will have 4 DDs; SAM, PUP, BST, and Blu, with a SCH & Bard for support.

SAM - Deals 700,000 using ws/normal hits
PUP - The player should deal at least 350,000 and their puppet (we'll say they use Sharpshot) the other 350,000 equaling 700,000
BST - Same as Pup but maybe more a 450,000/250,000 split or 250/450 depending on the pet they use
BLU - WS/Spells etc 700,000 total
SCH - we will say at least 150,000 in nukes while healing everyone
BRD - oh! Sings song, maybe melee a little (because it is an awesome battle bard) 150k in dmg but great support.


That would be a balance. Again all things being equal (gear level) the numbers at the end should be the very close to each other. The path to get to said numbers will be different for every job. I.E. SAM is going to be spamming Weaponskill & making skill chains (that is what they do), PUP is going to be working with their puppet to do the dmg, BST has their critter to help in conjunction with their not own melee dmg, Blue well we all know what they do SPIKE DMG from spells + Skillchains, etc... etc... etc...


In other words, people were asking SAM, BLU, WAR, PUP all deal same level of DPS. And now SAM, BLU, WAR all deal pretty much same level of DPS but I see people start to ask 2h buff instead?

Exactly what'd you all want? If BLU, SAM, WAR deal same level of DPS people aren't happy and ask for 2h buffs. If BLU deals less DPS people also aren't happy and ask every job to deal same DPS?

Playerbase are never happy with job balance, even if SE buff every 2h massively to a point to surpass BLU greatly to offset the versatility, I'd expect to see army of "my BLU can't win parse anymore Q.Q" post on OF. That's why I propose MG adjustment rather than buffing 2h.

4) You brought up Angon and stuns from other DD jobs, guess what, BLU can do BOTH with sudden lunge and Tenebral Crush, with recast so low that you can literally spam it.

Warcry is a pretty strong DD buff so I'll give you credit for that. But it also has 1min duration v.s MG is 5 min and can be fulltimed with 2 BLUs.

Conclusion: Due to the above reasons, I see MG adjustment being a more reasonable way to address BLU issue. I don't see buffing other DD being anywhere close to perfect solution, personally.

I think people are anti nerf because of the word "nerf" triggers negative reaction. Majority of the anti nerf opinions doesn't base on the reward:effort ratio when making job adjustments, nor the consequences after 2h DPS buff. They just don't want a nerf because BLU is their main and favorite job and subjectively don't want a nerf.

[Afania]

To sum up my opinion after months of months of debate on AH and here, here's my thought about DD balance.

Based on spreadsheet result, I think BLU deals way too much DPS with what it can do currently, the gap between BLU and other none DPS, such as WAR, is so small that it's almost none-existent. With what BLU can bring to the table it should do less DPS.

But I also think if the DPS gap between BLU and WAR increases to delve 1/2 era level, or even 75 era level, then BLU aren't going to get invite anymore. People will just bandwagon next strongest DPS, such as WAR.

Thus IMHO the best solution to address this issue is to make stacking 2x BLU in pt setup less appealing to pt organizers, such as removing the haste effect and/or defense stacking.

Like all the anti nerf people said, even without MG haste you could just use entrust haste, MG adjustment doesn't hurt BLU much, if at all. Nor it create a scenario that everyone suddenly say "no" to BLU wanting to join the pt, considering BLU DPS remains the same. It only means pt organizers won't have ANY reason to shout for BLU only nor able to abuse BLU x2 setup in melee content. It's a win win situation for both BLU, and none BLU DD players.

[Diavolo]

Do you play BLU, Afania? I asked this question to the OP and they sidestepped it.

[Afania]

Do you play BLU, Afania? I asked this question to the OP and they sidestepped it.

May I ask you one question before I answer? Why is it an important factor that someone plays BLU or not in a BLU balance discussion?

I'm not sidestepping it, but I don't think it's fair to judge how legit the opinions are based on whether someone plays BLU or not. It's often a concern brought up in BLU DPS discussion repeatedly, with everyone claiming "you want a nerf because you don't play BLU", despite several people pro nerf people in the discussion that I know of has high end BLU.

[Diavolo]

May I ask you one question before I answer? Why is it an important factor that someone plays BLU or not in a BLU balance discussion?

I'm not sidestepping it, but I don't think it's fair to judge how legit the opinions are based on whether someone plays BLU or not. It's often a concern brought up in BLU DPS discussion repeatedly, with everyone claiming "you want a nerf because you don't play BLU", despite several people pro nerf people in the discussion that I know of has high end BLU.

I'll take that as a no.

It's double standards. You're quick to judge a job you do not play. You are also quick to point out that some of the BLUs that do play support your opinion. Well, this is the other side of the coin.

Go spend some time with the job and attempt to do the things you and many detractors claim are possible, such as reliably clearing VD avatars in a few minutes. I think many opinions would be changed with some firsthand experience.

[Afania]

I'll take that as a no.

I read my reply, over and over, which is this:


May I ask you one question before I answer? Why is it an important factor that someone plays BLU or not in a BLU balance discussion?

I'm not sidestepping it, but I don't think it's fair to judge how legit the opinions are based on whether someone plays BLU or not. It's often a concern brought up in BLU DPS discussion repeatedly, with everyone claiming "you want a nerf because you don't play BLU", despite several people pro nerf people in the discussion that I know of has high end BLU.

None of them sent out a "no" msg. Idk who's quick to jump to the conclusion here.

I didn't even answer your question and you quickly jump into conclusion that "Afania doesn't play BLU", then proceed to basically write off ALL of my opinion by disagree with an opinion that's NOT even presented by me, but by someone else.

I see that was your goal when you asked the question anyways, that's why I questioned your motivation. And it seems that I'm correct about your motivation.

If you read my argument about BLU instead of skipping them, or confusing my post with OPs, you'd know that none of my opinion ever touch VD solo abilities, nor I care about BLU's solo abilities. I only ever expressed opinion about MG mechanic favoring 2x BLU setup and encourage people invite 2 BLU over 1 BLU 1 DD or 2 DD in pt.

Also before you use the "Oh you don't play BLU so your opinion doesn't count" tactic, why don't you use the same tactics on Comeatmebro who has better gears than majority of career BLUs and still support BLU nerf?

Back to your question, BLU is my first job, I've been playing since 75 and before it got bandwagoned to death like it today. I'm not CAREER BLU nor even MAIN BLU, and I only play it in easy content like Ambuscade Vol 2, or dynamis, or when I wanted to solo some stuff that needs aoe or shadows or sleeps. My BLU isn't high end, nor able to outparse elite ones, but that doesn't mean I don't play it. It's just one of my job among 5 others and not my best geared, nor most played job.

The reason why I didn't ans because i think you asked the question with the intention to find flaws and write off my opinion, and I think it's a cheap tactic in a discussion. That's why I didn't ans. I'm pretty sure the moment I ans your question you'll continue to attack with "but your BLU isn't elite so your opinion is moot" or "You're not career BLU so your opinion is moot" etc.

Anyways, the point is to argue the point, don't focus on the person behind the opinion. You don't even need to play BLU, just need to organize a BLU x2 setup pt once in your lifetime to understand how MG mechanics work, and how it boosts the defense of 2 DD AND give pt 1 free extra bubble for even more defense, while other DD jobs don't get any of that.

[Immortta]

Regarding buff jobs, people already went over this on AH over and over.

1)It's less work to nerf 1 job and more work to buff 5+ jobs. From the reward ratio perspective they accomplish the same result with less work. With current dev team resource it only makes more sense to accomplish the result using less resource.


No it really isn't that much work. WS adjustment for 2h/h2h jobs, boosts to certain buffs to 2h/h2h jobs among many other things. 1H jobs didn't start to become really powerful until the WS overhaul primarily.



2)If SE buff every other DD to surpass BLU's DPS, the player community will obtain DPS power that's much stronger than what we currently have, thus making the content easier....when majority of them are already very easy. It only hurt the game as a whole.


The game isn't going to be that easy if other jobs are up to par for DD. Look at BLM and the magic burst strat, it can't get much easier than that. SE plans to also add new content as well. You still can't steamroll the master trials (which are being done primarily with ranged strats FYI.)



4) You brought up Angon and stuns from other DD jobs, guess what, BLU can do BOTH with sudden lunge and Tenebral Crush, with recast so low that you can literally spam it.


This shows that you don't play BLU. BLU has a very very low success rate on landing these on anything that matters. You aren't going to fight T3+ in Reisenjima and be able to reliably stun them or land DEF down, and continual casts will lower DPS vs other DD and in most cases the benefit is moot considering you have other jobs capable of the same features that don't require a chance to land.

[Afania]

No it really isn't that much work. WS adjustment for 2h/h2h jobs, boosts to certain buffs to 2h/h2h jobs among many other things. 1H jobs didn't start to become really powerful until the WS overhaul primarily.



Nah, I'd rather SE work on contents instead. Do MG adjustments and get this BLU issues done with.



The game isn't going to be that easy if other jobs are up to par for DD.


I feel like I'm just repeating myself like a broken record about this discussion now.

You're essentially asking jobs like WAR to get 25%+ dmg boost and yes that'll make the game too easy.



This shows that you don't play BLU. BLU has a very very low success rate on landing these on anything that matters. You aren't going to fight T3+ in Reisenjima and be able to reliably stun them or land DEF down, and continual casts will lower DPS vs other DD and in most cases the benefit is moot considering you have other jobs capable of the same features that don't require a chance to land.

Idk if you're just trying to win this "BLU doesn't need nerf" argument or not anymore. First you're claiming everyone BLM magic burst everything T3+ and that makes the job broken because it's so easy, and everyone and their mother all BLM all things. THEN you proceed to argue that BLU stun is useless ON T3+ as if everyone all currently melee burn T3+ and don't do other contents.

Additionally you even play the "you just don't play BLU card" again and again.

Let me tell you a story though. Someone **cough** suggested BLU and sudden lunge makes Dawn II BC laughably easy, so I did. I spammed sudden lunge in that BC on BLU and farmed gears that I need. So that person promoted BLU stun powa at that time, then when the time comes BLU mains start to deny BLU can stun by claiming "but it doesn't land on T3+, and every other content doesn't count".

95% of people don't melee T3+, so your argument about BLU not landing stun in T3 is irrelevant since people shout for BLU x2 in lower contents.

And when people really do T3+ with melee they'd still shout for BLU x2 for MG anyways.

[Afania]

No it really isn't that much work. WS adjustment for 2h/h2h jobs, boosts to certain buffs to 2h/h2h jobs among many other things. 1H jobs didn't start to become really powerful until the WS overhaul primarily.

The game isn't going to be that easy if other jobs are up to par for DD. Look at BLM and the magic burst strat, it can't get much easier than that. SE plans to also add new content as well. You still can't steamroll the master trials (which are being done primarily with ranged strats FYI.)

This shows that you don't play BLU. BLU has a very very low success rate on landing these on anything that matters. You aren't going to fight T3+ in Reisenjima and be able to reliably stun them or land DEF down, and continual casts will lower DPS vs other DD and in most cases the benefit is moot considering you have other jobs capable of the same features that don't require a chance to land.

Anyways, this entire post pretty much just shows how anti BLU nerf people will basically do everything to win argument when it comes to job balance discussion just to prevent a nerf. I'm just going to lay it out now.

Right now the issue isn't BLU winning every T3+ content by spamming sudden lunge, outparse every DPS job in game while keeping up defense spells full time and takes half of dmg of every other jobs, and makes the game laughable easy.

Right now the issue is MG mechanics encourages people to make melee DD pt with 2 BLUs to keep haste full time, while getting all the defensive bonus from MG. So you get massive amount of people shout for BLU and only invite BLU, causing other DD not getting invite. And none of the anti BLU people ever address this core issue, instead they always_argue_about_something else.

So there's the sum up of eternal debate:

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Nooooooo! Other DPS, such as WAR DRK SAM are stronger than BLU, if you can't outparse BLU your WAR DRK SAM suck.

The fact with spreadsheet is that BLU isn't behind WAR in terms of DPS at all.

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Just use entrust haste.

Well, so anti nerf people are basically saying the best way to deal with losing 1 GEO bubble is to......waste 1 geo bubble on haste?

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Just buff 2h DPS

The fact is that buffing 2h DPS is the same thing as nerfing BLU DPS, people are okay with buffing 2h DPS and shorten content lifespan, but not ok with nerfing BLU DPS? I just don't get it.

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: You must play with PUG right? PUG suck!! You can clear the content with WAR DRK SAM just fine, you don't NEED BLU to win if you play with better people.

Fact: I can clear the content with MNK too, does that mean MNK don't need adjustment? Job adjustment doesn't base on whether X job can clear the content or not. Also regardless of the skill/gear level you're still getting the bonus of what BLU brings to the table

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti Nerf people: GEO is OP, BST is OP, BLM is OP, COR is OP, SMN is OP....WHY DON'T YOU NERF THESE JOBS TOO.

Because as it stands now this thread and discussion is entirely about the issue of people shout for BLU only. If you want to discuss GEO, BST, BLM, COR, SMN job balance issue open another thread please. I don't understand the reason to talk about other jobs when the topic is about BLU

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti Nerf people: YOU JUST DON'T PLAY BLU RIGHT?

Well, some people that supports BLU nerf in every discussion definitely does

-Anti Nerf people: No you don't, you just don't play blu because I said so.

Ok, so we don't play BLU, only anti nerf people plays BLU. It doesn't change the fact that there's design balance issue though.

-Anti Nerf people: Just play other DD jobs, other job can do def down and stuns, SO AWESOME! Oh wait, you just said BLU can stun/def down too? I CAUGHT YOU DON'T PLAY BLU BECAUSE THOSE DOESN'T LAND ON HIGH END CONTENT.

Fun facts: Back then when delve1 was just out, some career BLU* pop on the forum and promoted BLU terror/req in ceizak. Back then when people were asking for dawn II advice, some career BLU* pop on the forum and promoted BLU sudden lunge in this BC. Those people loved BLU so much that in pre-BLU bandwagon era they do everything they could to promote the power and utility of their favorite job.

Now that people have noticed this job is getting a little bit unbalanced and there are voices to call for nerf, then same group of people are trying everything they could to downplay BLU's advantage just to support their anti nerf pov. They drastically over-exaggerate the DPS gap between WAR, SAM and DRk v.s BLU. Tried to come up with subpar solutions to haste issues, played the "your group suck" card against anyone prefer to bring BLU over WAR, SAM and DRK for safety reasons, then proceed to claim anyone supports MG adjustment doesn't play BLU. Then hand picked one very specific situation that majority don't do(T3+ with melee setup), and use it as an example to support their "BLU suck because additional effect doesn't land on these" opinion.


If people just keep hand picking niche situations that's harder to can't utilize BLU's strength, then proceed claim BLU isn't so great because of that, then it's not objective opinions. And that's pretty much every anti-nerf people's been doing, especially considering that not too long ago those same group of career BLUs promote BLU on the forum 24/7 before bandwagoning happened. Now that they suddenly completely forget everything great about BLU and just do all they can do to paint BLU as if it's a terrible job.

I feel like a broken record by just repeating my points over and over, only to see anti nerf BLU people replied with something not addressing my points....at all.

[Immortta]

Nah, I'd rather SE work on contents instead. Do MG adjustments and get this BLU issues done with.



I feel like I'm just repeating myself like a broken record about this discussion now.

You're essentially asking jobs like WAR to get 25%+ dmg boost and yes that'll make the game too easy.


You're implying that BLU has a 25%+ dmg boost over other jobs or that number is somehow necessary for jobs to do more dmg and be taken over BLU... Completely wrong. That isn't what is needed at all, a slight increase and other beneficial boosts like to certain JA, would suffice. You keep ignoring the fact BLU HAS ALWAYS HAD THESE SUPPORT/DEFENSIVE SPELLS, ALWAYS. The DPS between BLU and other DD HAS BEEN COMPARABLE SINCE ABYSSEA. You aren't making any sense at this point.




Idk if you're just trying to win this "BLU doesn't need nerf" argument or not anymore. First you're claiming everyone BLM magic burst everything T3+ and that makes the job broken because it's so easy, and everyone and their mother all BLM all things. THEN you proceed to argue that BLU stun is useless ON T3+ as if everyone all currently melee burn T3+ and don't do other contents.

One has all ranged damage with very low chance to fail, vs DD being subjected to status debuffs and all other things, do you not see how one is easier?



Additionally you even play the "you just don't play BLU card" again and again.

Let me tell you a story though. Someone **cough** suggested BLU and sudden lunge makes Dawn II BC laughably easy, so I did. I spammed sudden lunge in that BC on BLU and farmed gears that I need. So that person promoted BLU stun powa at that time, then when the time comes BLU mains start to deny BLU can stun by claiming "but it doesn't land on T3+, and every other content doesn't count".


So because someone tells you of a method to beat a BCNM, automatically it means that BLU is the only job capable of beating that BCNM? Confused on what you are even trying to get across here. You can easily beat this fight without stun, BST even solo's it on VD along with SCH and other jobs, WHAT IS YOUR POINT HERE? Yes, the stun barely lands on anything really relevant. Even in Ambuscade it doesn't land on most things or in high tiers of Escha or master trials, we're talking about the top of end-game when referencing nerfs and adjustments.



95% of people don't melee T3+, so your argument about BLU not landing stun in T3 is irrelevant since people shout for BLU x2 in lower contents.

And when people really do T3+ with melee they'd still shout for BLU x2 for MG anyways.

Stun doesn't land in a lot of other areas too (Avatars, Ambuscade VD, merit fights VD, high-tier Escha, master trials) and even if it DOES land, it is not a necessity for a win. With the AOE dmg nerf it is easily healed by a WHM (which btw has the stronghold on healing, nothing touches it) and any potential status debuffs can be blocked by a GEO. You don't need x2 BLU for MG when you can reset timers or take time between fights to readjust parties and reapply buffs.

[Afania]

I didn't "spam" it on AH, I only ever reply people's comment. You sound like as if I run around create 10 threads on every forum then hijack every discussion and turn it into BLU nerf, which I didn't.

I only post in this discussion to add spreadsheet info that I get about BLU v.s WAR in terms of DPS. I heard people claiming WAR > BLU, DRK > BLU all these times with absolutely zero evidence outside of people's parse result in their friend circles. So I had the opportunity to do spreadsheet, found the above DPS hierarchy info incorrect with my result. And that's really all I did....until army of anti nerf people started playing "your opinion is moot and you dont play BLU" card.

[Immortta]

Anyways, this entire post pretty much just shows how anti BLU nerf people will basically do everything to win argument when it comes to job balance discussion just to prevent a nerf. I'm just going to lay it out now.


"Basically do everything to win arguement"

Which means what exactly? I've simply given my opinion and backed it up with facts, you just have this attitude that automatically makes you discredit any post I put because you are completely biased towards a nerf on BLU



Right now the issue isn't BLU winning every T3+ content by spamming sudden lunge, outparse every DPS job in game while keeping up defense spells full time and takes half of dmg of every other jobs, and makes the game laughable easy.


Is this sarcasm or what? Outparse every DPS job in the game? Are you confident in backing that up? I think that is completely false. Keeping up defensive spells full time is a DPS loss and unnecessary for many fights, again BLU has had these benefits since day 1. AOE dmg taken was nerfed for all jobs, not just BLU, and the game isn't exactly hard outside of high tier Escha and Master trials, which BLU doesn't make laughable because people rarely bring it to them.



Right now the issue is MG mechanics encourages people to make melee DD pt with 2 BLUs to keep haste full time, while getting all the defensive bonus from MG. So you get massive amount of people shout for BLU and only invite BLU, causing other DD not getting invite. And none of the anti BLU people ever address this core issue, instead they always_argue_about_something else.


You've been told this before, but you just don't listen. Stop using shout groups as the test for whether a job needs an adjustment. If that was the case you would be campaigning on these forums to nerf GEO ASAP because it completely overshadows BRD and other jobs. PUG are not the defining thing in adjusting a job... it's silly to even assume that as that lies in the hive mind of the PUG shouters. You can nerf MG and people would still bring BLU because its the flavor of the month job, something YOU keep ignoring. Most BLU DONT EVEN BOTHER with defensive spells in PUG fights as its unnecessary a lot of the time. Other jobs also have comparable benefits that people just seem to ignore, like yourself.




So there's the sum up of eternal debate:

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.



"Precious GEO buff slot" LOL, so an entrust spell is "precious" according to you? Do you even realize most PUG GEO barely use the JA?



The fact with spreadsheet is that BLU isn't behind WAR in terms of DPS at all.

-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Just use entrust haste.

Well, so anti nerf people are basically saying the best way to deal with losing 1 GEO bubble is to......waste 1 geo bubble on haste?


It's not a GEO bubble you lose, its entrust which is weak for most spells. You conveniently keep skipping over that.



-Pro Nerf people: BLU is currently having access to too much utility for the amount of dps that it can deal. MG is using 1 precious GEO buff slots. Either nerf MG haste, defense stacking, or BLU DPS.

-Anti nerf people: Just buff 2h DPS

The fact is that buffing 2h DPS is the same thing as nerfing BLU DPS, people are okay with buffing 2h DPS and shorten content lifespan, but not ok with nerfing BLU DPS? I just don't get it.


Escha content is already shortened, people who can win it already have 8+ aeonics. It would simply open it up to lesser geared/skilled players to get the weapons and have SE create new content going forward while people can still enjoy the older stuff. It has been their mantra for a while now to make older content easier (which I disagree with slightly) but you are acting like the mobs will be one shot if other DD get a slight boost lol.



If people just keep hand picking niche situations that's harder to can't utilize BLU's strength, then proceed claim BLU isn't so great because of that, then it's not objective opinions. And that's pretty much every anti-nerf people's been doing, especially considering that not too long ago those same group of career BLUs promote BLU on the forum 24/7 before bandwagoning happened. Now that they suddenly completely forget everything great about BLU and just do all they can do to paint BLU as if it's a terrible job.


Nobody is trying to paint BLU as a terrible job, its a great one. The fact that people like you are completely exaggerating the differences due to a hive mind bandwagon, is cause for career BLU to give you facts.

[Immortta]

I didn't "spam" it on AH, I only ever reply people's comment. You sound like as if I run around create 10 threads on every forum then hijack every discussion and turn it into BLU nerf, which I didn't.

I only post in this discussion to add spreadsheet info that I get about BLU v.s WAR in terms of DPS. I heard people claiming WAR > BLU, DRK > BLU all these times with absolutely zero evidence outside of people's parse result in their friend circles. So I had the opportunity to do spreadsheet, found the above DPS hierarchy info incorrect with my result. And that's really all I did....until army of anti nerf people started playing "your opinion is moot and you dont play BLU" card.

Spreadsheets are done in a vacuum, all these GREAT benefits you list for BLU like spells being casted conveniently vanish when you are doing your DPS spreadsheet against other jobs huh? I sincerely doubt your findings and I'd be willing to bet they are not an accurate representation of what actually goes on. Also consider SE has plans to further buff those jobs.

[Afania]

You keep ignoring the fact BLU HAS ALWAYS HAD THESE SUPPORT/DEFENSIVE SPELLS, ALWAYS. The DPS between BLU and other DD HAS BEEN COMPARABLE SINCE ABYSSEA.

No it isn't. I actually just found my DD hierarchy comparison that I've done in 2014 with spreadsheets. BLU at that time was roughly 90% of MNK's dmg, and MNK weren't top DPS at that time, SAM was.

By comparison BLU beats JA down WAR and deal 95% of DPS when warcry up.

You can argue that BLU deals "comparable" dmg to MNK in 2014 because 10% dmg gap is still pretty close, but the gap is just smaller these days. You make it sound like the gap between BLU and other DPS haven't change, but according to spreadsheet it did changed.



So because someone tells you of a method to beat a BCNM, automatically it means that BLU is the only job capable of beating that BCNM? Confused on what you are even trying to get across here. You can easily beat this fight without stun, BST even solo's it on VD along with SCH and other jobs, WHAT IS YOUR POINT HERE?

My point is career BLUs promote BLU whenever they try to sell the job then changed the stance completely to support anti-nerf pov.



Stun doesn't land in a lot of other areas too (Avatars, Ambuscade VD, merit fights VD, high-tier Escha, master trials) and even if it DOES land, it is not a necessity for a win.

Ok so a while ago you're promoting stuns from other jobs are awesome so we gonna invite none BLU DDs! Now you're saying it's not necessity for a win.

That's contradiction.



You don't need x2 BLU for MG when you can reset timers or take time between fights to readjust parties and reapply buffs.

If you give other DPS MG you still need Erratic Flutter to cap haste. So how are you gonna cap haste with 1 BLU 1 not BLU DD then?



Which means what exactly? I've simply given my opinion and backed it up with facts, you just have this attitude that automatically makes you discredit any post I put because you are completely biased towards a nerf on BLU


Voting for MG adjustment is my stance, what else do you expect lol. It's not "biased" just because I have certain stance toward something.

I discredited posts you put because you didn't address any of my point, which is "Currently there's an issue of people abuse BLUx2 setup".

If you can find a solution to SOLVE the above issue without changing the content difficulty, then I'll agree with your opinion.

But so far the only solution that you came up with is to boost other DDs, which I don't completely agree with.

You did provided some ideas to boost other DDs without touching DPS, such as giving them more utilities, so I'll give you credit for that. But unless other utilities are game changing enough to address the GEO bubble issue I'm not sure if that'll make other DD a more appealing option for melee spot.



Is this sarcasm or what? Outparse every DPS job in the game? Are you confident in backing that up? I think that is completely false. Keeping up defensive spells full time is a DPS loss and unnecessary for many fights, again BLU has had these benefits since day 1. AOE dmg taken was nerfed for all jobs, not just BLU, and the game isn't exactly hard outside of high tier Escha and Master trials, which BLU doesn't make laughable because people rarely bring it to them.


I think you misread my sentence. I said the issue IS NOT BLU winning parse. Basically agreeing your opinion about BLU's DD hierarchy.

I said the issue is "PEOPLE ABUSE BLU X2 SETUP".



You've been told this before, but you just don't listen. Stop using shout groups as the test for whether a job needs an adjustment. If that was the case you would be campaigning on these forums to nerf GEO ASAP because it completely overshadows BRD and other jobs. PUG are not the defining thing in adjusting a job.

I went over this GEO and BRD issue already, and basically I'm tired of repeating the same point over and over and over and over.

Take this issue somewhere else please, start a new thread or something. But basically I'm done with talking about my opinion about BRD and GEO balance in a BLU discussion, because someone* repeatedly tried to change the direction of the discussion.




Nobody is trying to paint BLU as a terrible job, its a great one. The fact that people like you are completely exaggerating the differences due to a hive mind bandwagon, is cause for career BLU to give you facts.

So you think I'm exaggerating the strength of BLU, while I think you downplayed the strength of BLU. Ok.

[Afania]

Spreadsheets are done in a vacuum, all these GREAT benefits you list for BLU like spells being casted conveniently vanish when you are doing your DPS spreadsheet against other jobs huh? I sincerely doubt your findings and I'd be willing to bet they are not an accurate representation of what actually goes on. Also consider SE has plans to further buff those jobs.

Back to my original point, they can choose not to cast them and maintain the DPS, other jobs don't have the choice. Again, repeating myself.



You've been told this before, but you just don't listen. Stop using shout groups as the test for whether a job needs an adjustment.
.


All top end groups gets BLU benefit as well, it's not like benefits from MG suddenly disappear if your group is top end.



Other jobs also have comparable benefits that people just seem to ignore, like yourself.
.

Exactly which job can self cap haste without bubbles and gain massive def boost? You tell me, I don't know. BRD buffing themselves probably.

[Immortta]

Back to my original point, they can choose not to cast them and maintain the DPS, other jobs don't have the choice. Again, repeating myself.


Actually other jobs do have that choice, they have options for defense but again it doesn't really matter these days when a tank can hold hate very well on ilevel content and AOE dmg taken was nerfed.



All top end groups gets BLU benefit as well, it's not like benefits from MG suddenly disappear if your group is top end.


We're talking about damage capabilities in end game fights, not simply the haste off MG which can be easily replaced given that there are more numbers are harder fights like high-tier Escha or outside buff sources like a mule BRD or trusts.



Exactly which job can self cap haste without bubbles and gain massive def boost? You tell me, I don't know. BRD buffing themselves probably.

All jobs can self cap haste with trusts or damn near close lol. Refer to my previous point about "massive def boost." Comparable benefits meaning angon, 9999 HP DRKs prior to fights, WAR offensive JAs, RUN DD builds, NIN shadows etc.

[Afania]

Actually other jobs do have that choice, they have options for defense but again it doesn't really matter these days when a tank can hold hate very well on ilevel content and AOE dmg taken was nerfed.

We're talking about damage capabilities in end game fights, not simply the haste off MG which can be easily replaced given that there are more numbers are harder fights like high-tier Escha or outside buff sources like a mule BRD or trusts.

All jobs can self cap haste with trusts or damn near close lol. Refer to my previous point about "massive def boost." Comparable benefits meaning angon, 9999 HP DRKs prior to fights, WAR offensive JAs, RUN DD builds, NIN shadows etc.

I can name tons of situations that doesn't favor a tank in DD setup, angon, 9999 HP DRKs, WAR warcry, Lionheart RUNs, THF larceny, and NIN defensive spells. But at that point I'd be just doing the same thing you did, which is nip picking a situation that favors my argument just to support my point. We'll just argue meaninglessly for another 10 pages.

I generally agree with you, those benefits are great. But you also gonna aware that those benefit aren't always relevant, for example angon being not so relevant with idris bolster frailty+ COR, or RUN needing massive attack buffs etc. Like what BLU has is sometimes relevant but you can still nip picking situations that BLU's benefit isn't as relevant just to support your argument.

If you look at the big picture as a whole though, I personally think BLU has more benefits in melee setup. And I still think 1 free bubble slot is pretty big one, considering how strong and versatile GEO buffs are.

There are situations that you can solve the haste issue with entrust and weakened the issue, but sometimes you just can't. In situations that you can't full time entrust 1 bubble slot become much more relevant than other benefits from other DDs.

I mean, I'm ok with BLU having other benefits like RUN, WAR, NIN, DRK, DRG or whatever, really. But 1 GEO buff slot is pretty huge, that's basically massive additional benefit that you can use freely for acc or defensive needs. And even if you start naming niche situations that the haste bubble benefit is lessened, such as JA reset for entrust, you'd never know when will SE release newer, harder content without options to do JA reset that you just need as many buff slots as possible to win comfortably.

I look at this design issue from a bigger picture, instead of picking niche situations when evaluating design issues. I'm not here to scream BLU needs a nerf because I have bandwagon mindset, I do so because I noticed design flaw when SE implemented MG, on a already very versatile and strong DPS job.

SE can buff other jobs massively, but unless other jobs are buffed to the point that they massively out DPS BLU, or unless SE completely redesign haste buffs layout, I see BLU x2 setup still gains 1 free entrusted GEO bubble full time, or 1 indi bubble when you can't reset JAs compare with other DD job candidates.

If SE leave this issue unaddressed, how are they going to move forward with future content if they ever have plans to?

[Diavolo]

I didn't even answer your question and you quickly jump into conclusion that "Afania doesn't play BLU", then proceed to basically write off ALL of my opinion...

I'm merely trying to get a better understanding of where you're coming from. Good to know you don't share the OP's opinion.

Why do you reserve a job you believe is overpowered for easy content, isn't that counterproductive?

[Fae]

#NerfBLU

You guys are looking mightily desperate clinging to red herrings, what if scenarios, and then your ultimate defense being, "join our bandwagon, everyone else is doing it". And if they say more, "well you don't play BLU, but you should, cuz then we all would!". I remember some of these same people not playing BST, THF, SAM or other jobs and wanting a nerf hmmm. But now that the game favors you, you pull the same cards as if forgetting you used them when the game was clearly not in your favor. If anything, playing BLU is a bias in itself, you don't elect a jury of your peers, you get people that aren't involved to weigh in. Perspective from the inside looking out is the worst kind if those same people have reasons to be biased and have their invested interests tied to the outcome which is clearly the case here beyond a doubt.

There was a study done on this kind of thing, two players are chosen at random to play monopoly but one player is given a pretty big advantage. The player that ends up winning and having that advantage when their study was behaved and later questioned why they won, they'll cite their intelligence, or skill, or how well they played the game and cite certain victories as their proof disregarding that they had a built in advantage and being blind to their own benefits or disregarding them as unimportant. You're willfully in denial and will do mental backflips and lean heavily on partial truths and logical fallacies and not actually address any of the things which strongly show blu is both bandwagoning and currently too strong, in too many ways, all at once. You know there's a problem when a bunch of people are literally telling you, jus gear BLU as their ultimate solution.

It's almost as if you guys don't care for job balance or job variety or the games health at all, as long as you can gather together in your borg-like blu cult. You'll hop to the defense of it here and everywhere else, and it does pop up everywhere because everyone sees this problem, you try o make it sound like only two people are calling for a nerf when every thread on other sites gets turned into a nerf BLU "discussion", though they aren't discussions it's basically everyone but people who hopped on the bandwagon saying we should nerf BLU then bandwagoners or long time blu players (though even some of them say we should nerf blu) sticking together like candy left in the sun too long to try to defend it, but they never make any points or have any solutions they only try to exhaust everyone else and try to sign more people up for their BLU bandwagon brigade. I actually feel sorry for people that played BLU just cuz it was a job they liked and stuck with it through the years having to deal with all the bandwagon nonsense, but as I said even some of them have said BLU needs a nerf. Most the bandwagoners do not want any job but BLU in their party, and if you've ever been on another DD in a BLU bandwagon party it's a very miserable experience. You will not get haste cap, I will say that first off. They will horde it over you that they have it, and the whm or geo will probably be too lazy to even haste I you. You will be reprimanded if you use any ws that doesn't self chain light and at the first opportunity, they will find another BLU so they can all have their light chains and extra buffs without another DD to slow them down. If a mob needs gravity, they want blu. If a mob needs stunned, they want BLU. If a mob needs killed, they want no tanks and instead want BLU. Nerf BLU already this ridiculousness has gone on way too long. As I said before, they were bandwagoning and a problem even BEFORE they got their new AoE spells and mighty guard and their extra set points, now it's just super ridiculous.

[Afania]

Why do you reserve a job you believe is overpowered for easy content, isn't that counterproductive?

I don't understand your question. Are you saying I pop on the forum claiming BLU is OP for easy content? Or people shout for BLU because it's OP for easy content? That wasn't the point that I've made in this entire 50 pages discussion on AH and OF. I don't recall I have ever use the term "OP" when it comes to BLU discussion at all.

Maybe you could go back and read the post that I sum up my thoughts about this BLU design mechanics, instead of confuse my point with someone else's every single post.




It's almost as if you guys don't care for job balance or job variety or the games health at all

This........I sincerely don't understand the reason why people questioned my background, jobs leveled, or my motivation, when trying to engage a discussion about design issues.

If people don't use the word BLU, just use a more generalized DD name, then make the follow statement:

DD A can do 5000 DPS, but DD A needs 1 GEO haste bubble, or entrust haste bubble in situations that you can reset JA everytime entrust is down. Therefore DD A can only get 1 GEO offense/defense buff, or 2 when you can reset JA.

DD B can do 5000 DPS, but DD B doesn't need any haste bubble. Therefore DD B always gets at least 2 GEO offense/defense buff, or 3 when you can reset JA.

If you invite 2x DD B, you can gain the access to 2 GEO offense/defense buff full time, if you invite 1 DD A and 1 DD B, you can will lose the access to 1 indi or 1 entrust bubble.

Regardless which DD it is it's mechanically a hole in this entire design, before even looking into MG defense benefits.

But whenever this design issue is being brought up, there's always someone saying "But you don't need those bubbles in content X", "We only use melee in easy content anyways!" and more importantly "Why does it matter to you"


Back then people talked about issues like amount of SoA ring you can get, MNK and SAM bandwagon, merit WS limitations, quality of life adjustments. None of those discussion ever sparked this many people fight against the adjustment, nor questioned people's motivation to ask for adjustment. And those issues has way, way less impact than losing 1 GEO bubble when you can't JA reset.

I personally just don't understand why so many people are against adjustments to MG mechanics. Even if it doesn't affect you today because you clear easy content in 2 min with other DD, and do T3+ with BLMs, it may still affect you one day when new content comes out.

Whether you play BLU or not, and regardless you bring melee to T3+ or not, if you guys only look at the mechanic instead of trying to convince yourself "the mechanic is good, I'm not affected by it" I think it just needs adjustment.

[Immortta]

You're just going in circles at this point, just stop already. SE has no plans to nerf BLU so sorry but it isn't gonna happen now. If it does happen and it kills the bandwagon I'll be happy with that, but then you'll see these thumpers go to another flavor of the month job and you can hate on that. BST was justified being that they soloed and low manned all the major top end NMs easily, especially with revitalizers, BLU isn't doing that in the same capacity to warrant a nerf.

[Afania]

You're just going in circles at this point, just stop already. SE has no plans to nerf BLU so sorry but it isn't gonna happen now. If it does happen and it kills the bandwagon I'll be happy with that, but then you'll see these thumpers go to another flavor of the month job and you can hate on that. BST was justified being that they soloed and low manned all the major top end NMs easily, especially with revitalizers, BLU isn't doing that in the same capacity to warrant a nerf.

I'm repeating myself because Diavolos repeatly ask irrelevant questions, or misunderstood my entire point, or confuse my posts with someone else's.

I'm ok with people not agreeing with my opinion, I'm not ok with people not reading then jump into conclusion about myself as an individual, or put words in my mouth.

Whether SE makes the adjustment or not is not something that I can control, but at least I have right to clarify my points and defend for myself when people repeatedly put words in my mouth?

[Diavolo]

Your mistake is drawing a line in the sand and saying it's a case of us vs. you while hiding under the pretense of game balance when that's not what you're calling for here at all. Your choice of words seem to demonstrate an anger towards this one job and, for whatever reason, the people who play it. Nerfing BLU isn't going to get the masses to stop choosing GEO over BRD and RDM or choosing SCHs, BLMs and just about any other job over RNG and MNK.

I have every job at 99 with all skills capped, been that way for a while. If BLU gets nerfed to the point where I no longer find it fun and/or efficient to play I'll just move onto something else that is, but with the lack of content currently available I would have to ask myself if it was worth it.

I still believe the lack of end game content is the #1 reason job balance has become such a big issue. There were plenty of fights back at the 75 era that completely removed certain jobs from the playing field (for efficiency's sake, of course) and it didn't matter because there was a wealth of content for us, so if your favorite job didn't get used for one event you could be sure it was used elsewhere. I think placing a greater focus on monster strengths/weaknesses would do more to dissuade people from blindly throwing BLUs at everything, i.e. you won't bring BLUs to fight something that's strong to slashing damage if THFs and RNGs can make shorter work of it.

The dev team's been slow to address the balance issue, but it has been happening and the impact is unmistakable. We have an easier time using melee jobs since the AGI/eva, VIT/def and the AoE changes were put in place. Hopefully they can keep moving in this direction without the need to nerf any jobs.

[detlef]

I don't get it. Aren't WAR and DRK the best in high buff situations on difficult content? Aren't THF and DNC still exceptionally powerful right now? Aren't RNG and COR still the go-to jobs for certain fights? And isn't SCH-BLM the preferred strategy for the hard stuff anyway?

Perhaps it would be easier to give MNK a big buff while considering some smaller buffs for DRG and BST (maybe a some other jobs but these come to mind).

[Jakuk]

I don't get it. Aren't WAR and DRK the best in high buff situations on difficult content? Aren't THF and DNC still exceptionally powerful right now? Aren't RNG and COR still the go-to jobs for certain fights? And isn't SCH-BLM the preferred strategy for the hard stuff anyway?

Perhaps it would be easier to give MNK a big buff while considering some smaller buffs for DRG and BST (maybe a some other jobs but these come to mind).

Perhaps but since BLU can self-cap Haste while having better defense (through traits and buffs) then those jobs while also allowing the GEO to cast superior buffs resulting in a far more efficient party with the result blocking out others jobs due to being less efficient unless:

A. A party can't find anymore BLU's
B. You are part of a linkshell that will allow you to come as anything but the bandwagon job
C. You solo

Also BST doesn't need a buff, they're still as powerful as they were, the only different the "nerf" done was add some danger to the method where there was none before.

Sad thing is most of the players know BLU is OP but they refuse to accept it and argue that this isn't the case because they either A. Use this job or B. Take advantage of it's OP state to advance in this game.

[Afania]

Your mistake is drawing a line in the sand and saying it's a case of us vs. you while hiding under the pretense of game balance when that's not what you're calling for here at all. Your choice of words seem to demonstrate an anger towards this one job and, for whatever reason, the people who play it. Nerfing BLU isn't going to get the masses to stop choosing GEO over BRD and RDM or choosing SCHs, BLMs and just about any other job over RNG and MNK.


Exactly which choice of words seems to demonstrate anger towards this one job in this thread, or people who plays BLU? Could you quote them? Because I'm not seeing many.

If anything it's the disrespectful and rude people that repeatedly used "You suck, PUG suck, you don't play BLU" in a dps discussion that made me sound defensive, or angry, or any emotion that you described. In that case it's not direct toward BLU player, but rather because the disrespectful people in the discussion.

If you run on the street and tell them "you suck", you can't expect them to give you reply that's not defensive, no? This is basically what you did atm.

A lot of people seems to think I'm yelling for BLU nerf because everyone shout for BLU onry, so I just follow the flow and joined bandwagon mindset, and proceed to yell for nerf. That isn't the case at all.

Back when MNK dominated the shout scene, and people yell to buff other jobs, I actually defended for other job's DPS capability v.s MNK. I'm not that kind of person that you think I am, that'd join the bandwagon and yell nerf FOTM job all day and everyday.

I also agree that in FFXI history, people have been yelling for nerf, or bandwagon other certain jobs, due to the lack of understanding of game. But that doesn't mean everyone who currently saying MG needs an adjustment are yelling for nerf due to bandwagon mindset.

So when people questioned pro-nerf player's motivation, or hinted that anyone supporting a nerf has "bandwagon mindset"(whatever that is), I find it very disrespectful. I wouldn't mind if you DISAGREE with the opinion, but hinting pro nerf people has "bandwagon mind set" "you don't play BLU" or "You suck, PUG suck" does nothing in the discussion except fuel the fire with oil.

[Afania]

I don't get it. Aren't WAR and DRK the best in high buff situations on difficult content? Aren't THF and DNC still exceptionally powerful right now? Aren't RNG and COR still the go-to jobs for certain fights? And isn't SCH-BLM the preferred strategy for the hard stuff anyway?

Perhaps it would be easier to give MNK a big buff while considering some smaller buffs for DRG and BST (maybe a some other jobs but these come to mind).


People keep saying WAR and DRK is the best DD but I'm not seeing any evidence. I DO have several parse result with WAR winning pars and suggested WAR being the top DPS, but it doesn't prove anything due to every NM/buff are different and player has different gear different.

So I'd rather believe in spreadsheet result, WAR and BLU are on the same level in terms of pure DPS. Depending on buffs, situations, gears etc one job may out DPS another. But it's not like 75 era that a BLU pretty much needed to massively outgear a SAM to win parse.

SCH, BLM, COR, RNG aren't melee jobs, nor preferred job when melee is preferred. Leave SCH BLM COR RNG out of discussion please, as they're not relevant in a melee DPS balance discussion.

[Vae]

So the thing people are getting confused or totally ignoring, is the fact that superbuffed parties, WAR/DRK are insane-o-crazy. There's a REASON bandwagnarok became a thing, and is again now, resolution is incredibly strong, and STP sets/DA/TA sets are better than ever. BUT they REQUIRE a hasteII and who does that hasteII... BLU. Because it's better to use a BLU than to waste a slot on a RDM.

BLU is really strong with only self buffs, too strong in fact. BLU + GEO can solo more than 95% of the entire game. Granted, a PUP BST SMN can too, but that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

You won't see a THF + GEO or WAR + GEO soloing(duoing) content, why? Because haste II. Because MG. Because self buffs are too good. Traits are too good. Versatility is too high. Survival is too high.

That's not to say you CAN'T do content any other way. But it's obvious to anyone with a brainstem blu is too good.

When we were all taking sch to embrava. You nerfed embrava.
When we were all taking smn to alex. You nerfed Perfect Defense.
When we were buff locking cor rolls. You nerfed buffs wearing.
When we were ALL war. you Nerfed Ukko's.
When we were ALL mnk. you nerfed Smite.
When we were ALL thf. You nerfed rudra's.
When we were ALL bst. You nerfed range.
WE'RE ALL BLU. (for low man and 95% of the game) Nerf hammer. is not optional.
The TOP 5% that matters, is all immanence and death btw, thats OP as shit too.

[Immortta]

Um you do realize that trusts can caste Haste II right in your scenario of duoing/soloing content? *roll eyes*

I guess when we're all GEO for every single fight in the game it doesn't matter
I guess when we're all mage strats for 90% of end game for years it doesn't matter

I'm not gonna throw all the jobs under the bus atm, but there are quite a few that do very well nowdays and not just BLU.

[Immortta]

People keep saying WAR and DRK is the best DD but I'm not seeing any evidence. I DO have several parse result with WAR winning pars and suggested WAR being the top DPS, but it doesn't prove anything due to every NM/buff are different and player has different gear different.

So I'd rather believe in spreadsheet result, WAR and BLU are on the same level in terms of pure DPS. Depending on buffs, situations, gears etc one job may out DPS another. But it's not like 75 era that a BLU pretty much needed to massively outgear a SAM to win parse.

SCH, BLM, COR, RNG aren't melee jobs, nor preferred job when melee is preferred. Leave SCH BLM COR RNG out of discussion please, as they're not relevant in a melee DPS balance discussion.

You can't just cherry pick jobs that you find are relevant. There is not "melee only" when doing balance in a discussion, its overall balance among jobs in this game.

[Afania]

You can't just cherry pick jobs that you find are relevant. There is not "melee only" when doing balance in a discussion, its overall balance among jobs in this game.

The title of this thread is BLU balance though, and the only job that's being affected with BLU balance issue are melee jobs, such as WAR MNK DRK SAM DRG. Outside of melee job balance discussion you may as well just create a new thread.

Otherwise we'll just start talking about GEO being the strongest buffer, WHM being the only real healer job, RNG and COR being the only job that can shoot, instead of talking about melee job and BLU.....in a "BLU balance" thread.

[Diavolo]

If anything it's the disrespectful and rude people that repeatedly used "You suck, PUG suck, you don't play BLU" in a dps discussion that made me sound defensive, or angry, or any emotion that you described. In that case it's not direct toward BLU player, but rather because the disrespectful people in the discussion.

If you run on the street and tell them "you suck", you can't expect them to give you reply that's not defensive, no? This is basically what you did atm.

It's what you inferred from a simple question. As to why you did that, I can only guess, but that's why I'm here asking questions rather than jumping to conclusions.

I'm not a career/main/whatever-buzzword-you-want-to-use BLU. I don't care for the divisive language often used in these threads. We're all playing the same game, we all have access to the same jobs/weapons/gear. Do with that what you want.

[Shiyo]

So I'd rather believe in spreadsheet result, WAR and BLU are on the same level in terms of pure DPS. Depending on buffs, situations, gears etc one job may out DPS another.
That's completely not ok. A job like BLU should never come ANYWHERE near a specialists job. Warrior cannot do anything besides deal damage, it should be much stronger than blue mage at dealing damage.

The fact that it's not, is a huge balance issue that needs to be addressed ASAP.

[Shiyo]

Considering Warcry has like 1 min(if I remember correctly with 119 head) duration in longer fights BLU would probably pull ahead, while in shorter fights I see WAR still wins.

And even in situations that favors WAR, which is warcry up, BLU still deal 95% of DPS of WAR. By comparison in 2014 BLU had lower than 95% of top DPS when I spreadsheeted the DPS hierarchy.

IMHO, a job with such survive-ability and versatility, shouldn't do 95% of DPS of WAR in niche situations that strongly favors WAR, and beats WAR most of the time. And WAR is actually one of the strongest "traditional heavy DD" job atm.

If BLU is a DPS only job, not a hybrid job, then the job balance issue doesn't exist.
If BLU is a hybrid job, but only does 70% of DPS of WAR, then the job balance issue doesn't exist as well.


Yeah this is exactly the issue!

There's absolutely no reason that a blue mage should come anywhere near a pure damage jobs damage, ever. No situation.

[Afania]

It's what you inferred from a simple question. As to why you did that, I can only guess, but that's why I'm here asking questions rather than jumping to conclusions.

I'm not a career/main/whatever-buzzword-you-want-to-use BLU. I don't care for the divisive language often used in these threads. We're all playing the same game, we all have access to the same jobs/weapons/gear. Do with that what you want.

You did jump into conclusion though, you either try to find flaws in my argument by asking the question, or assumed I know absolutely nothing about the job when I expressed opinion....thus having a reason to write it off.

Otherwise you tell me, why's "play BLU" the absolute qualification to engage a discussion with job balance? All the description about MG are on BG wiki, and it takes 5 min of reading and learning the MG mechanics to know that there's something quite wrong with the design.

Why can't people express opinions about design issue, because they truly find a hole in design mechanics? I frequently see people use "You don't play BLU thus your opinion isn't legit" or "You're just pissed about what BLU can do, why don't you playing it youself" in this entire discussion, instead of focusing on the points.

It's like when someone with Masters in economy giving advice about finance, most people without the background would totally follow the advice, when a 10 yr old kid giving out the same advice, we won't take it seriously because it's all about the person behind the opinion, not the opinion itself.

But logically, it doesn't make sense.

[Diavolo]

It's difficult to have a civil discussion with someone that takes offense to "Do you play BLU?" and then claims the only reason you asked it was to discredit everything they said, painting you in a negative light in the process. I was genuinely curious about your experience with the job.

I swear, everyone is so damned sensitive these days.

[Afania]

It's difficult to have a civil discussion with someone that takes offense to "Do you play BLU?" and then claims the only reason you asked it was to discredit everything they said, painting you in a negative light in the process. I was genuinely curious about your experience with the job.

I swear, everyone is so damned sensitive these days.


It depend on the situation, and how you ask.

In normal circumstances, if I pt with someone, and he asked "do you play BLU?", I wouldn't take offense. I would just view it as a conversation starter.

If someone's organizing pt and he asked "Do you play BLU", I also wouldn't take offense. Because I know pt lead just wanted to gather info on team member's job, to do his job.

In your case, you asked the question "Do you play BLU" basically right after I posted my proposal to the adjustment, in the middle of a heated debate. Followed with "I asked the question to the OP and they sidestepped it."

I'd bet 90% of time people will find it somewhat uncomfortable with a question like this, that's just how human react. People tend to be more defensive in a debate or heated discussion, therefore people tend to react differently compare with "normal" conversation. A "Do you play BLU" question could send out entirely different msg depending on the situation. Try to observe it irl, ask questions like "Do you have Masters in Finance" when 2 people are having a debate about economy, I can promise 90% of people will take offense, or feel uncomfortable about it, especially if you follow with the following sentence: "Last time I asked someone with the same opinion they sidestepped it"

If you really want to ask "do you play BLU" in a heated debate, I'd suggest the more tactful way is to start the conversation with different approach, such as "As someone who also plays BLU, I can understand where you are coming from, BUT [insert your opinions here]" or at least explain your reasoning behind wanting to know, such as "As someone who plays BLU, I find a lot of opinions about BLU is being exaggerated, such as VD solos. Could you tell me a little bit more about your VD solo experiences on BLU?"

There are probably a tactful way to approach the "do you play BLU" question, but definitely not "Do you play BLU? Last time when I asked OP they sidestepped it"

If you choose a less tactful way to engage the conversation, then you can't really blame people for being "too sensitive", most people will have the same reaction.

[Immortta]

That's completely not ok. A job like BLU should never come ANYWHERE near a specialists job. Warrior cannot do anything besides deal damage, it should be much stronger than blue mage at dealing damage.

The fact that it's not, is a huge balance issue that needs to be addressed ASAP.

Yes which is why it needs a buff. ALL 1h jobs got stronger, not just BLU, after that ws revamp. I think the 1h ws should be toned a little back and 2h a little more but a nerf to what BLU has done since day1 is silly. It's always had those buffs since day 1.

[Numquam]

Is this thread the result of people not getting jobs in PUGs for everyday content?

[Jakuk]

Yes which is why it needs a buff. ALL 1h jobs got stronger, not just BLU, after that ws revamp. I think the 1h ws should be toned a little back and 2h a little more but a nerf to what BLU has done since day1 is silly. It's always had those buffs since day 1.

Because no other job has had a dramatic change from what the job could do Day 1.

BLU Was never this powerful from day one, why people keep claiming this is beyond me.

Yes it had most the same buffs bar MG, but they came at great cost to equip so you were limited on what spells and traits you can have, since JP, 1H buff and MG a LOT has changed.


Is this thread the result of people not getting jobs in PUGs for everyday content?

It's the result of people seeing just how OP this job is and realising that maybe that shouldn't be the case.

[Shiyo]

BLU had 10% magic haste at 75. It has 30% + MG now.

[kylani]

Um you do realize that trusts can caste Haste II right in your scenario of duoing/soloing content? *roll eyes*

I guess when we're all GEO for every single fight in the game it doesn't matter
I guess when we're all mage strats for 90% of end game for years it doesn't matter

I'm not gonna throw all the jobs under the bus atm, but there are quite a few that do very well nowdays and not just BLU.

So it sounds like this is a no-brainer. Blu has trusts like every other job, so removing haste from MG won't even be a nerf. Blu can call a Trust for haste like all the other jobs.

[Vashkoda]

Of course blu can call trusts like every other job. The whole point of trusts is that they can make up for abilities and spells your own job lacks. People playing solo with trusts shouldn't even care about blu, especially since hey, you're solo, it's not like you have to compete against a blu for your trusts to invite you to a party.

Because I do have the suspicion that all this hate against blu really is about other melee jobs feeling inferior. They can try to justify themselves with "but...BALANCE!", but the game has never been balanced, and there have always been jobs that outperformed others. They can argue that MG is too strong, but it's not like no other jobs can cast haste II. They can complain that the PUG leader might pick a blu over their own melee job, but you can always just start a shout yourself. Most people who do runs with statics or shells actually do have a chance to play on their other melees if they have actually taken the time to learn them, gear them, and play them well, because the rest of the group have learned to trust them to do their job, The problem with PUGs is that they have no idea who you are or what you're capable of, so they err on the side of caution and ask for strangers to come jobs that have a simple role (do you have X spell?). And I'm not saying blu in regular play is simple, as it does take skill and time and gear, but for a fight that lasts 3 minutes (because I think all this complaining we're seeing pop up right now is really just from this month's ambuscade) the blu really doesn't have much of a role beyond "buff, ES, subduction, hit mob". So I'm sorry if your server's PUG leaders don't want your WAR, DRK, SAM, whatever, but why don't you try actually starting your own shouts? Or why don't you make some friends so you don't have to resort to shouting? If that seems impossible on your server, maybe change servers? I have friends who shout for PUGs all the time on Bismarck, and we have a good enough mix of jobs geared that we couldn't care less what dd they choose come on as long as they can actually hit the mob. And I'm sure you won't hear that dd job complain that one of us came on blu and used MG to make his own life easier.

[Vae]

It's obvious there is a fundamental disconnect, or straight up bullshitting going on here.

In the world of everything works fine and everyone is average or better, blu is nothing special. Blu is a meh DD.

In the world where the majority live, where people have uncapped acc. don't use food. join shouts with 0 macros. have subpar gear, blu is DEVASTATINGLY overpowered. That's the difference.

When you live in shout world, rdms dont haste you, geos dont have 900 skill, "dd" dont cap acc. There is more than one version of FFXI. This is where the arguments come from.

It takes more effort (not that ffxi takes more than the smallest amount of effort) to be a good not-blu dd. Blu is blindfold zero effort no macro easy to be amazing. (there are obviously terribadblu's though).

[OmnysValefor]

Vae's post is probably the most unbiased post in the thread.

[Vae]

Protip: Vae is always right, always honest, never biased. I've been on both sides, played ENTIRELY too long.

[Shiyo]

It's obvious there is a fundamental disconnect, or straight up bullshitting going on here.

In the world of everything works fine and everyone is average or better, blu is nothing special. Blu is a meh DD.

In the world where the majority live, where people have uncapped acc. don't use food. join shouts with 0 macros. have subpar gear, blu is DEVASTATINGLY overpowered. That's the difference.

When you live in shout world, rdms dont haste you, geos dont have 900 skill, "dd" dont cap acc. There is more than one version of FFXI. This is where the arguments come from.

It takes more effort (not that ffxi takes more than the smallest amount of effort) to be a good not-blu dd. Blu is blindfold zero effort no macro easy to be amazing. (there are obviously terribadblu's though).
It's funny that BLU went from one of highest skill ceiling class to one of the lowest. If I was a BLU main right now I'd be agreeing with and starting huge movements to nerf my class so that it isn't so easy and bandwagoned.

Back in the day you had to use ALL your tools as a Blu, and use them efficiently and effectively, to be worth your slot. Now you just mash the CDC button and keep up a few buffs.

BLU mains seem to not care about that for some reason. The current state of BLU is an abomination and I have no idea why BLU mains are fighting to keep it in it's current state.

[Vae]

See, there are different kinds of people.

The blu "mains" don't want it nerfed so they can stay OP, obviously. They spent 500m on lawlmaceglow and zona, and don't want them to look stupid. REAL blu's want the scrubs off their job. Objective people just want to be able to play the dd they like and not feel like shit.

[Diavolo]

In the world where the majority live, where people have uncapped acc. don't use food. join shouts with 0 macros. have subpar gear, blu is DEVASTATINGLY overpowered. That's the difference.

Show me a video where the BLU you just described is demonstrating "devastating" power.



When you live in shout world, rdms dont haste you, geos dont have 900 skill, "dd" dont cap acc. There is more than one version of FFXI. This is where the arguments come from.

This helps put the entire issue into context and changes the discussion altogether.

I get criticized by my friend for doing this, probably because I'm usually quite blunt about it, but I'd suggest teaching those RDMs to keep Haste up, the GEOs to JP/gear up for 900+ skill and ensuring DDs can hit their targets before asking the development team to divert precious time into nerfing a job that, to quote you, "is nothing special" in a world where everyone is average or better.

Priorities and all that.

[Vae]

LOL. so extra credits on youtube, just completely posted exactly the disconnect with ffxi. (using overwatch).

TLDW: Premade groups (ls's) vs pickups

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEpeGSFQ1tM

[Afania]

Of course blu can call trusts like every other job. The whole point of trusts is that they can make up for abilities and spells your own job lacks. People playing solo with trusts shouldn't even care about blu, especially since hey, you're solo, it's not like you have to compete against a blu for your trusts to invite you to a party.

Because I do have the suspicion that all this hate against blu really is about other melee jobs feeling inferior. They can try to justify themselves with "but...BALANCE!", but the game has never been balanced, and there have always been jobs that outperformed others. They can argue that MG is too strong, but it's not like no other jobs can cast haste II. They can complain that the PUG leader might pick a blu over their own melee job, but you can always just start a shout yourself.


Sure, you can pretend the balance/design issue doesn't exist by playing with ls/friends, make your own party, job change to BLU, deal with lack of haste, whatever.

But it's like an ugly looking person that breaks all the mirrors in his house so he doesn't have to see his own face, thus able to pretend he looks beautiful.

Or a Chocobo buries his head in the sand and ignoring what happens to the outside world.

Or pre-lockstyle era that players do .dat mods so they can pretend their gear combination visually looks appealing.

Asking people to play with ls/friends, make their own pt, job change to BLU doesn't change the fact that there's an issue with design, it only solves individual player's personal problems.




They can try to justify themselves with "but...BALANCE!", but the game has never been balanced, and there have always been jobs that outperformed others. They can argue that MG is too strong, but it's not like no other jobs can cast haste II. They can complain that the PUG leader might pick a blu over their own melee job, but you can always just start a shout yourself.

My question is why can't people express opinions about design adjustments?

Back in the past people asked for BST nerf, SAM nerf, THF rudra nerf, WAR MNK nerf, all the time.

In fact there's one very, very vocal BLU in FFXI community(not naming names) that always run around asking BST nerf, and went "SAM needs nerf ASAP" in SAM discussion when he thinks those jobs had advantage over other jobs.

And now that BLU has slight advantage over other jobs, this same BLU suddenly jump into every single BLU discussion and essentially attack anyone that asked for BLU job adjustment.

This is double standard. Back when people ask for BST, SAM, WAR, MNK, THF or whatever job to be nerfed, there weren't massive wave of anti nerf opinions like today. Unlike these days people uses all sorts of excuses, including "just play BLU" or "just play with people let you come other jobs" to justify their reasoning against adjustments.

I'll tell you why design issues, regardless of the jobs, needs to be adjusted. Because that's the whole point of game design. SE as a game dev, it's their job to work on adjustments to designs. If you play a fighting game and every player picked same char in tournament, or if you play a RTS game and every player picked same side, it's called bad games. MMORPG is the same.

Therefore us as a player, our job is to provide feedback when we notice issues in design, to help them create a better game.

Just because MMO can never be truly balanced, doesn't mean dev and playerbase shouldn't work toward this goal.

Therefore comments like "just play BLU!!!" or "just deal with the lack of haste!!!" or "just play with friends!!!" really shouldn't be in a design balance discussion as it doesn't solve any issue from game design pov, it only solve individual player issue of not getting pt invite.

[Afania]

This helps put the entire issue into context and changes the discussion altogether.

I get criticized by my friend for doing this, probably because I'm usually quite blunt about it, but I'd suggest teaching those RDMs to keep Haste up, the GEOs to JP/gear up for 900+ skill and ensuring DDs can hit their targets before asking the development team to divert precious time into nerfing a job that, to quote you, "is nothing special" in a world where everyone is average or better.

Priorities and all that.

Except RDMs aren't even in most regular melee pt setup due to the lack of strong aoe cure/cure skin/aoe -na and weaker bars. Even if supports can keep haste up none BLU DDs still not gonna cap haste.

And even in situations that you DO use RDM, none BLU DDs still need MG to cap haste unless you wanna waste precious bubble slot.

[OmnysValefor]

Therefore comments like "just play BLU!!!" or "just deal with the lack of haste!!!" or "just play with friends!!!" really shouldn't be in a design balance discussion as it doesn't solve any issue from game design pov, it only solve individual player issue of not getting pt invite.

I agree that "just play BLU" is a stupid defense, but if you don't like how other people are building groups. Build your own groups. The only thing that can be said for "just play BLU" is that clearly, some of the complainers have no idea what they're talking about. Should at least play a job before you try to state how OP it is.

Valefor may be a low pop server but it doesn't suffer from a blu craze. I see lots of jobs going to Ambuscade and lots of nuking jobs at anything remotely serious. However, I can appreciate that people who insist on stacking BLUs in any and all content must get pretty old.

[Diavolo]

My question is why can't people express opinions about design adjustments?

Back in the past people asked for BST nerf, SAM nerf, THF rudra nerf, WAR MNK nerf, all the time.

In fact there's one very, very vocal BLU in FFXI community(not naming names) that always run around asking BST nerf, and went "SAM needs nerf ASAP" in SAM discussion when he thinks those jobs had advantage over other jobs.

And now that BLU has slight advantage over other jobs, this same BLU suddenly jump into every single BLU discussion and essentially attack anyone that asked for BLU job adjustment.

This is double standard.

He asked for a nerf. You are asking for a nerf. I'm sure he was met with both support and resistance, just as you are being met with both support and resistance. Where's the double standard?



Back when people ask for BST, SAM, WAR, MNK, THF or whatever job to be nerfed, there weren't massive wave of anti nerf opinions like today. Unlike these days people uses all sorts of excuses, including "just play BLU" or "just play with people let you come other jobs" to justify their reasoning against adjustments.

This made me laugh because it seems the answer to your problem continues to elude you, despite being right under your nose.

Job imbalances become easy to detect if they involve mechanics that everyone wants to exploit, which is the case that's been made, so if the dev team takes the time to monitor its servers and the number of people playing BLU over a period of time rises to an unacceptable level you can be sure they would address the issue even if there was no forum feedback whatsoever. Ergo, "Go play BLU" isn't an excuse - I'm not even sure how you've come to define it as such - it acts as a means to an end and doubles as a devastatingly powerful job choice if you happen to share the beliefs of others asking for a nerf, so hey, why not, right?

http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/3-Batman-Begins-quotes.gif

[Afania]

I agree that "just play BLU" is a stupid defense, but if you don't like how other people are building groups. Build your own groups.


I build groups all the time, I build Ambu vol2 pt for casual players, I build UNM 135 pt for returning players, I build woc melee pt and master trials pt for top end players with near perfect gear in every slot and uses scripts to minimize human errors. Outside of SV honor march situations, I don't have some sort of magic that can magically generate 1 free GEO bubble while keeping every DD fully hasted.

Building your own groups doesn't change the fact that MG mechanic still has a flaw.

Again, this is a design mechanics discussion, not personal circumstance discussion. It doesn't matter whether you play with robots, high end players, casual players, returning players, and it doesn't matter whether you organize pt or not.

You aren't going to bypass the limitation of losing 1~0.5 GEO bubble without SV.

[Afania]

He asked for a nerf. You are asking for a nerf. I'm sure he was met with both support and resistance, just as you are being met with both support and resistance. Where's the double standard?


Exactly who was against SAM nerf in 2014? Even some of the most hardcore SAM players in the community at that time agreed SAM needed a nerf. There definitely weren't this massive wave of anti nerf people in 2014 saying the job in question is just fine.



Job imbalances become easy to detect if they involve mechanics that everyone wants to exploit, which is the case that's been made, so if the dev team takes the time to monitor its servers and the number of people playing BLU over a period of time rises to an unacceptable level you can be sure they would address the issue even if there was no forum feedback whatsoever. Ergo, "Go play BLU" isn't an excuse - I'm not even sure how you've come to define it as such - it acts as a means to an end and doubles as a devastatingly powerful job choice if you happen to share the beliefs of others asking for a nerf, so hey, why not, right?

http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/3-Batman-Begins-quotes.gif

Suggesting people "go play BLU" is fine, saying design adjustment shouldn't happen because you can just play BLU isn't. And the msg I kept getting from people.

[detlef]

So just to be clear, the thing people have a problem with is Mighty Guard? Like, if somehow the haste property were weakened or removed then people would be happy?

[Vae]

So just to be clear, the thing people have a problem with is Mighty Guard? Like, if somehow the haste property were weakened or removed then people would be happy?

Diffusion MG is (most) of the issue. Embrava was *broken* so how is MG not, seriously. They're the same god damn spell. (obviously hyperbolic).

1200 Gift is the rest of the issue.

Other issues that would be less broken, once those two are fixed.

[detlef]

If they nerfed Diffusion-MG I would accept it in 1 second if it meant that people would bitch about MNK or BRD instead.

[Urmom]

If they nerfed Diffusion-MG I would accept it in 1 second if it meant that people would bitch about MNK or BRD instead.

Ha. Mnk has been left out in the cold basically since delve 2. Kind of funny but it's kind of a worse pup now when before was the opposite. Likewise brd has been out of favor since they first started buffing geo... well that and fights/fights made rotating brds or prebuffing and dropping less good

[detlef]

Ha. Mnk has been left out in the cold basically since delve 2. Kind of funny but it's kind of a worse pup now when before was the opposite. Likewise brd has been out of favor since they first started buffing geo... well that and fights/fights made rotating brds or prebuffing and dropping less goodBy that I meant that people should be focusing their energy on getting those jobs buffed. They are both obviously in a bad place right now.

[Afania]

By that I meant that people should be focusing their energy on getting those jobs buffed. They are both obviously in a bad place right now.


If you like to see people complain about MNK and BRD, why don't you just focus some of your energy on creating another thread called "MNK and BRD balance"? That'd get the result you want.

[Stamos]

I have said, and will continue to say I don't think BLU deserves a nerf. If it was breaking the game by exploiting something I would absolutely agree with Afania's crusade. The whole capping haste aspect is fairly irrelevant on dual wield jobs. You can cap delay on all the jobs that have natural dual wield.

If they were to nerf something, it should be CDC. That is the aspect that changed things really. It isn't the strongest weaponskill, but it isn't very far behind the strongest WS and it is the most skillchain friendly.

The PUG aspect of this discussion is laughable to me, if you're going to play with bad player that is not the developers fault, that is the players fault. Make your own party, make some friends. If you want to join a PUG, it is the leader's rules. If you don't like that aspect once again, make your own party.

[Vae]

If it was breaking the game...

See, but it -is- breaking the game. If more than half the people are all playing the same job when there is 15 different options, something is very clearly broken. This is an obvious fact. It isn't debatable.

Nothing was inherently broken about crits in 2012 when ukko's and Vsmite were nerfed. They were just too popular. We do more damage and higher crit rates than we would've ever dreamed of 4 years ago.

[Stamos]

That is quite the exaggeration on your part on half. Right now on Leviathan there is 326 people online, 53 are Blue Mage. Which is 16.2% or so. Being popular does not equate broken.


That was a different time in the game, just like Kiaru posting about how at 75 Blu had 10% magic haste. You have to put it in perspective. Back at 75, a lot of jobs didn't cap gear haste. The game has evolved, the level cap has been raised.

[Vae]

That is quite the exaggeration on your part on half. Right now on Leviathan there is 326 people online, 53 are Blue Mage.
Of the DD, not the total population. And discount /anon.

Being popular does not equate broken.
To square it does. It's damaging to mmo population. Variety is why ~15 DD jobs exist.

[Stamos]

Just because they made a decision four years ago under different Developers, doesn't mean that applies now. Like I said, perspective. The game is far different than it was even four years ago.

[Vae]

It still applies now or they would obviously revoke the nerf. It's that status quo. MNK would benefit quite a bit from revoking that Vsmite nerf.

[Stamos]

No one debates that H2H in general is awful right now. So, basically you don't think the job is broken, you think it is popular so it should be nerf'd. Okay

[Vae]

I know no one likes to admit it but MNK -should- be at the bottom. It was the top for a long damn time. Punching something does alot less theoretical damage than a giant axe. (not that logic has ever held a place in fantasy).

BLU is -absolutely- broken. its traits are broken. cdc is broken. survivabilty is broken. self haste and MG are broken. I said that all already. But even if you can't agree on that you know and so does everyone else the popular job GETS nerfed. End of story. It's going to happen. the question is when. It not just an ff thing. its a qol thing for all players of all games.

[OmnysValefor]

Blu jp is definitely something they got right, but the chasm there is that so many jobs got mediocre or downright terrible. JP, they should be buffed and changed because they're awful.

JP should feel like leveling up and many jobs don't.

Monk has some tankish jp when they couldn't truly tank (enmity, dt) anything remotely serious.

With enough delay reduction, not hard to achieve even with just trusts, their MA gifts are bad for the job.

Half of monk's problem is that h2h always seems like an uneasy spot between 1h and 2h. It gets love when SE directly targets it.

I don't play monk in years but have a handful of ideas to improve it.

[Vashkoda]

My question is why can't people express opinions about design adjustments?
...

Unlike these days people uses all sorts of excuses, including "just play BLU" or "just play with people let you come other jobs" to justify their reasoning against adjustments.


No one is stopping you from expressing your opinions; you're doing it right now. But in order to have a productive discussion, I think we need to be clear on what the issues are. Obviously the issues have not been expressed clearly, otherwise you wouldn't have people asking "is this thread the result of people not getting jobs in PUGS for everyday content" or "just to be clear, the thing people have a problem with is Mighty Guard?" And just because those particular aspects might not apply to *you*, it doesn't mean they don't matter to other players. The impression I have had is that most of the griping is indeed coming from other melee jobs feeling they are being edged out of PUG invites by blus. And the solutions that have been mentioned, which included starting your own shouts, finding statics/shells who can learn to trust you on those other jobs, or even just making sure everyone remembers how to play properly (eat food, use acc gear, get GEOs with 900 skill, remind mages to haste you) were legitimate options for people in those situations.

I'm happy for you that you have access to top geared players and are doing endgame content. If you have access to honor march, why are you complaining about a blu's MG? If your groups have access to lionheart RUNS and other heavy dds that have the potential to out-dd blu, why are you complaining about BLU damage? I'm actually surprised that you complain about BLU in endgame at all, since that's not generally where they shine. Sure you save a entrust GEO slot (assuming you don't have honor march, which you apparently do), but in endgame content you also generally bring more than one GEO, unless you are lowmaning just for the challenge of it. So you feel that having a BLU spare you one of 5 geo buff slots is too OP?

I do think that in order to have this discussion, clear distinctions have to be made about what level of game play you're addressing. You seem to think everyone is in denial except you, but it's possible that your experience in the game is just different from everyone else's, so people are having a hard time seeing from your POV and meeting you half way. And maybe it would help if you also acknowledged some of the points others in here are making, so we see that you are also trying to have an honest discussion.

As for the game design being flawed, I actually liked the points that that Overwatch video brought up that someone linked to. It's really hard to balance a game while allowing multiple jobs to keep their own unique style. And as the video brought up, *individual playstyle* is in fact an important consideration for the devs. And that's a point that people in here have been trying to make for the last few pages.

[Stamos]

Being at the bottom damage wise, and being outclassed in weaponskill damage by pure mage classes such as WHM is another thing.

CDC is not exclusive to BLU, but I agree about CDC. The traits are how the job was designed from the beginning of the job. If you removed the JT bonus from gifts, people would just set the DD traits, so it would essentially change nothing for the PUG aspect people are complaining about. Nerfing CDC or removing defense from MG would achieve what people are hoping for. A damage reduction while keeping utility, or a survivablity reduction. Mostly, I think some people on this forum and the other one that has had this same discussion are bloviating at how strong it is, and how weak other jobs are. Or, just posting for attention/trolling with no idea what they are talking about.

[Vae]

You realize, how many FREE points, the job gift gives right. Blu is only allowed to set 80 points, but the gifts TRIPLE their value. No other jobs gets even close to that same value.

[Stamos]

Most people have a bit left over for utility spells. People would set DW3, STP2 or 3, triple attack and be done with it traits wise.

[Vae]

Uh, no. Critical bonus. Skill chain bonus. Attack bonus. Acc bonus. FIVE TIERS OF IT FFS. that's absolutely broken holy shit. come on.

[Jakuk]

Being at the bottom damage wise, and being outclassed in weaponskill damage by pure mage classes such as WHM is another thing.

CDC is not exclusive to BLU, but I agree about CDC. The traits are how the job was designed from the beginning of the job. If you removed the JT bonus from gifts, people would just set the DD traits, so it would essentially change nothing for the PUG aspect people are complaining about. Nerfing CDC or removing defense from MG would achieve what people are hoping for. A damage reduction while keeping utility, or a survivablity reduction. Mostly, I think some people on this forum and the other one that has had this same discussion are bloviating at how strong it is, and how weak other jobs are. Or, just posting for attention/trolling with no idea what they are talking about.

So destroy other jobs by gimping a WS to balance BLU when changing BLU alone could solve the problem while not attacking others as well.

MG Doesn't need defence removed, it needs to be changed from a mini Embrava to what the spell always was, a spell that gave you Shell and Protect, while NOT stacking with the White Magic spell, it also should NOT be locked to a JA.

Absolutely no way should a job with a self-cast Haste 30% spell get another spell that grants even more haste that stacks, Defense and Magic Defense that stacks with Shell and Protect and Regen. and if they want that, then it should be an even shorter duration.

[Stamos]

Was just going off the top of my head. You would be able to equip DW3(16), TA(16), STP2(11), Skillchain Bonus(6), Crit bonus (6), acc bonus from nature med(6), and then you have flutter(6)

That is 67, leaving you 13 points to buff any DD traits you want or go utility. Like I said, it wouldn't change much.


As to Jakuk, because you act like BLU is the only one that exploits CDC. RDM as a DD is very powerful as well with Temper II. What RDM lacks is melee gear without restrictions. The Jhakri set lacks haste, the Taeon set lacks STP etc. You can mix/match because of Ambuscade capes, but is is hindered by gear, not the job.

[OmnysValefor]

but the gifts TRIPLE their value. No other jobs gets even close to that same value.

Haha, not always true.

Accuracy Bonus: 1: 10, 2: 35, 5: 72
Attack Bonus 1: 10; 3; 35; 5: 72
Defense Bonus scales like the two above. However, honestly, noone cares about token level of defense and again, if you're using defensive spells in any serious setting, you're probably gearing defensively too. At least I am.

MAB 1: 20, 3: 28, 5, 40.
Store TP: 1: 10; 3: 20, 5: 30
Critical Attack Bonus: 1: 5%, 3: 11%
Dual Wield: 1: 10, 3: 25, 5: 35, 6: 37~.
edit: As you can see, the best traits do not triple with 1200 gift.

I stopped checking here
Double Attack and TH do not apply. In a zerg situation, BLU will be subbing warrior (like many other jobs).

Remember something though, BLU is a blank slate. They won't set 1 tier of DA, because A) it's less than what /war (10% vs 7%) gives so moot and B) what they're after is Triple attack, which they can also only get one tier of (5%). 5% TA is a 10 extra swings out of every 100.

So again, a lot of people don't actually understand what they're complaining about.

[Vae]

You set t1 and you get 2 entire tiers free. that's triple. Wether the VALUE of a tier is tripled isn't what I was saying.

Going from 550 jp to 1200 jp is a pretty damn large dps increase.

Not to mention, blu NEVER has to sacrifice it's subjob.

[OmnysValefor]

Going from 550 jp to 1200 jp is a pretty damn large dps increase.

Not to mention, blu NEVER has to sacrifice it's subjob.

Again, wow, not true. Occultation is good, but when shadows matter, /nin is preferable. Other times, like all dual wield jobs, RUN is preferable. If you're fighting something like a caturae, /sam (for requiescat) is nice and SAM is an awful sub for BLU.

[Jakuk]

As to Jakuk, because you act like BLU is the only one that exploits CDC. RDM as a DD is very powerful as well with Temper II. What RDM lacks is melee gear without restrictions. The Jhakri set lacks haste, the Taeon set lacks STP etc. You can mix/match because of Ambuscade capes, but is is hindered by gear, not the job.

Point being as you stated, they lack, hence are hindered, also they are SEVERELY hindered by anything with Full Dispel (Which is most everything), whereas BLU is not hindered by anything.

Store TP V, Triple Attack, Acc Bonus IV, DW III, Skillchain Bonus III, Critical Attack Bonus III, Natures Meditation (for crazy attack), Tenebral Crush (for defense down), The very best armour for Dual Wielders, Very few spells needing to be cast to augment stats that can be dispelled, choice of SubJobs without impacting DW, High native melee skills etc...

[Vae]

No one does any of that. wings for cats. no one subs run for anything anymore it was neat for a few weeks.

You're talking about the 1% of 1% of 1%. you know better omnys.

[OmnysValefor]

You're right, I do know better. I know what I'm talking about.

I do sub /sam for caturae because I'd rather have meditate for something that I'm probably attack capped on (because well geared). It's just one more tool

And yeah, things with potent spike spells, or heavily large single element (like, say avatars) runefencer sub can be nice sub especially in a lowman or solo setting.

Which is what most of the game is besides whatever you do with your EGLS.

[Stamos]

Point being as you stated, they lack, hence are hindered, also they are SEVERELY hindered by anything with Full Dispel (Which is most everything), whereas BLU is not hindered by anything.

Store TP V, Triple Attack, Acc Bonus IV, DW III, Skillchain Bonus III, Critical Attack Bonus III, Natures Meditation (for crazy attack), Tenebral Crush (for defense down), The very best armour for Dual Wielders, Very few spells needing to be cast to augment stats that can be dispelled, choice of SubJobs without impacting DW, High native melee skills etc...

Wut? In what world is BLU not hindered by anything with full dispel? The same rules apply to BLU as they do RDM. Full dispel? Goodbye Mighty Guard etc. Then they reapply Flutter, and RDMs reapply haste II/Temper II. Mind you, RDMs self buffs last way longer than BLUs.

[OmnysValefor]

Wut? In what world is BLU not hindered by anything with full dispel? The same rules apply to BLU as they do RDM. Full dispel? Goodbye Mighty Guard etc. Then they reapply Flutter, and RDMs reapply haste II/Temper II. Mind you, RDMs self buffs last way longer than BLUs.

This, and they won't be reapplying Mighty Guard either, because you know, full dispel. MG has a 5m CD being attached to UL. If something does full-dispel or spam dispel, I'm not wasting MG. In that situation, the geo should entrust a haste.

[Jakuk]

Wut? In what world is BLU not hindered by anything with full dispel? The same rules apply to BLU as they do RDM. Full dispel? Goodbye Mighty Guard etc. Then they reapply Flutter, and RDMs reapply haste II/Temper II. Mind you, RDMs self buffs last way longer than BLUs.

I'll be honest I thought I edited that to "Not really hindered" when I edited it to add Full Dispel. (Guess not)

That said, I did say: Very few spells needing to be cast to augment stats that can be dispelled

Also poor RDM if all they do is Haste II and Temper II


This, and they won't be reapplying Mighty Guard either, because you know, full dispel. MG has a 5m CD being attached to UL. If something does full-dispel or spam dispel, I'm not wasting MG. In that situation, the geo should entrust a haste.

A shame yes, but it's literally two spells in most situations you need to recast, to get RDM to do decent damage you need a LOT more, also Composure is also a five-minute timer, without which you lose 49 ACC (On a job already struggling for ACC) and then screw those longer buffs.

[Afania]

I have said, and will continue to say I don't think BLU deserves a nerf. If it was breaking the game by exploiting something I would absolutely agree with Afania's crusade.


Way to go to paint it as if I'm the only person ever exist on the planet that asked for BLU nerf. I think you guys just need a target to address points lol.


The whole capping haste aspect is fairly irrelevant on dual wield jobs. You can cap delay on all the jobs that have natural dual wield.


Idk what to say anymore, not only because handful of DD, such as WAR or RUN aren't DW jobs, but knowledgeable players like you shoulda know haste > DW.

I can't speak for other DW DD such as THF, DNC, or NIN. But based on DW cheatsheet on bg-wiki, on COR I need another 31 DW @30 magic haste(MG+haste1). That means without DW ambuscade cap I'd need to swap out hand, waist, legs, ring and losing tons of multi attack and stp from Samnuha legs/windbuffet just tp cap delay. And that's WITH MG active.

I mean, why'd people think it's acceptable substitute to solve the issue? While BLUs happily TP in samnuha legs/windbuffet/adhemar hands etc other job has to sacrifice those slot just to cap delay.

I just don't get it, personally.

Also all these argument about PUG needs to stop. You aren't going to magically gain 1 free GEO bubble if you play with top end LS, you still have to make the sacrifice. Again, we're talking about game mechanics here, not personal circumstances.

[OmnysValefor]

Hey, I'm not complaining about having to recast spells. It's a downside to the job (in a small but not negligible fraction of fights), I'm just saying that full dispel/buff steal/dispel spam are a weakness to BLU.

Recasting takes swing timers, no matter how fast you cast the spell. And no, that's not a defense against why blu doesn't need nerfed.

IMO, blu doesn't need nerfed because it allows me to help people. Right now I'm alt tabbing from a Gormberry farm where I'm in -dt gear(!), aoe spellset, and doing avg 7-10k CDC (spell swords) which I'm coordinating with the cor for Darkness. My acc is awful even with nq sublime and hunter's roll. I don't feel OP, I feel capable. It's the same reason I play PLD and GEO (as much as I dislike GEO).

There are literally like two people in this thread saying blu needs nerfed that actually seem to understand the job.

Edit: To be able to do what I'm doing in this group, I gave up every melee dps trait, except for tier 1 of dual wield. for MAB, M.Acc, Fast Cast, and strong aoe spells, using acc food. Speaking from a melee perspective, my blu/rdm is a well geared blank slate.

I don't ask for nerfs to jobs I don't understand. I'm hesitant to even ask for buffs to those jobs because I don't understand them very well. Examples:
1.) I kinda think SE needs to replace Overwhelm with something so Samurais can do their best DPS without having to be in front of the boss. That's really dangerous in a lot of fights and can make meter-obsessed SAMs a burden.
2.) I think one way to increase monk's value is to let them shut off the skillchain properties of their weaponskills so that they can freely ws without interrupt skillchains. This would not fix monk, but would give an interesting dynamic in a game where people build TP so ridiculously fast. A general buff for monk is overdue.
3.) Honor March bards may be great and good, but most are not, and GEO are still frequently better (especially in a low man setting). Fix Bard.

Edit again: I don't play jobs like MNK and WAR and even DRK because I like having the versatility to meet group demands. I don't care if someone is stomping me on meters, which DPS equally geared to me will do.

[Stamos]

I said natural DW. Cor is not one of those jobs with natural DW. You have to sub NIN. Everyone knows you group DW into how much haste you have. Most people are arguing about entrust. It is a weaker bubble(obviously). Because, you keep repeating this sacrifice, but you are going to be attack capped on most content with frailty and dia II. Leaving you to do whatever you want. Accuracy on most content until you get to about 135 is irrelevant if you are semi-geared. All this content can be cleared without BLU x2, Geo, blu, insert DD will kill the same mob in the about the same time. So, what you're arguing over is basically a couple second. Joy

As for mentioning crusade, you have posted on now multiple forums the same thing. Would surmise that you have the most posts on this topic.

[Jakuk]

Hey, I'm not complaining about having to recast spells. It's a downside to the job (in a small but not negligible fraction of fights), I'm just saying that full dispel/buff steal/dispel spam are a weakness to BLU.

Recasting takes swing timers, no matter how fast you cast the spell. And no, that's not a defense against why blu doesn't need nerfed.

IMO, blu doesn't need nerfed because it allows me to help people. Right now I'm alt tabbing from a Gormberry farm where I'm in -dt gear(!), aoe spellset, and doing avg 7-10k CDC (spell swords) which I'm coordinating with the cor for Darkness. I don't feel OP, I feel capable. It's the same reason I play PLD and GEO (as much as I dislike GEO).

There are literally like two people in this thread saying blu needs nerfed that actually seem to understand the job.

Edit: To be able to do what I'm doing in this group, I gave up every melee dps trait, except for tier 1 of dual wield. for MAB, M.Acc, Fast Cast, and strong aoe spells, using acc food. Speaking from a melee perspective, my blu/rdm is a well geared blank slate.

I don't ask for nerfs to jobs I don't understand. I'm hesitant to even ask for buffs to those jobs because I don't understand them very well. Examples:
1.) I kinda think SE needs to replace Overwhelm with something so Samurais can do their best DPS without having to be in front of the boss. That's really dangerous in a lot of fights and can make meter-obsessed SAMs a burden.
2.) I think one way to increase monk's value is to let them shut off the skillchain properties of their weaponskills so that they can freely ws without interrupt skillchains. This would not fix monk, but would give an interesting dynamic in a game where people build TP so ridiculously fast. A general buff for monk is overdue.
3.) Honor March bards may be great and good, but most are not, and GEO are still frequently better (especially in a low man setting). Fix Bard.

Edit again: I don't play jobs like MNK and WAR and even DRK because I like having the versatility to meet group demands. I don't care if someone is stomping me on meters, which DPS equally geared to me will do.


Sadly the issue will forever be SE are not going to fix all the others jobs to be on par with the currently powerful one, the only thing they have a history of is if a job becomes too powerful, IE: it's literally that job or get out, (EG: BST, THF and so on) they nerfed them, even earlier in the game this was the attitude (Think RDM at 75) right now, right or wrong that is the position BLU is in. I would love this not to be the case and instead of a nerf other jobs that needed it got a buff but I think it's immensely unlikely we wil see that in FFXI.

While it's true there are several jobs that can perform as well as BLU or even out-perform them, the reality is most groups would rather take two BLU's instead of one DD and another Enhancer as they can do, in most cases, better than the one DD and enhancer as it requires far superior gear and skill to achieve.

It's also true in a lot of cases the playerbase themselves are one of the major hinderances of other DD jobs getting a chance but it has been this way from the beginning, they will always chose the bandwagon job over every other, and right now that is BLU.

--

I do entirely agree on BRD, poor job was really crippled by the addition of GEO.

[Afania]

I said natural DW. Cor is not one of those jobs with natural DW. You have to sub NIN. Everyone knows you group DW into how much haste you have. Most people are arguing about entrust. It is a weaker bubble(obviously). Because, you keep repeating this sacrifice, but you are going to be attack capped on most content with frailty and dia II. Leaving you to do whatever you want. Accuracy on most content until you get to about 135 is irrelevant if you are semi-geared. All this content can be cleared without BLU x2, Geo, blu, insert DD will kill the same mob in the about the same time. So, what you're arguing over is basically a couple second. Joy

As for mentioning crusade, you have posted on now multiple forums the same thing. Would surmise that you have the most posts on this topic.

I post on multiple forums because there's massive wave of anti nerf people that's basically saying the same thing, while ignoring my point.

FYI, this is my point:


I look at this design issue from a bigger picture, instead of picking niche situations when evaluating design issues. I'm not here to scream BLU needs a nerf because I have bandwagon mindset, I do so because I noticed design flaw when SE implemented MG, on a already very versatile and strong DPS job.

SE can buff other jobs massively, but unless other jobs are buffed to the point that they massively out DPS BLU, or unless SE completely redesign haste buffs layout, I see BLU x2 setup still gains 1 free entrusted GEO bubble full time, or 1 indi bubble when you can't reset JAs compare with other DD job candidates.

If SE leave this issue unaddressed, how are they going to move forward with future content if they ever have plans to?

Yes, because 1 GEO bubble(from the most powerful buffer in game) and massive defensive bonus from MG doesn't make a difference in game, ok.

Just because you feel like you don't "need" those bonus now, for whatever reasons, doesn't mean in the future when SE release harder content you won't going to get the benefit from them.

You're basically basing your anti-nerf argument from your personal perspective, using current content, and your own gear lv as the standard, not from designer's perspective.

[Afania]

I said natural DW. Cor is not one of those jobs with natural DW. You have to sub NIN.

Also if I remember correctly THF only has DW3 as well, it's still the same deal unless I'm missing something.

[Stamos]

You're missing the gift from THF JPs.

I meant from an attack perspective, not a defensive perspective. Anything harder you are bringing a tank(run or pld). You missed my point earlier, when I said if they are going to nerf something make it CDC to reduce BLUs dmg, or remove the defensive abilities of MG.

[Afania]

I meant from an attack perspective, not a defensive perspective. Anything harder you are bringing a tank(run or pld). You missed my point earlier, when I said if they are going to nerf something make it CDC to reduce BLUs dmg, or remove the defensive abilities of MG.

The extra GEO bubble that you gain can be used to enhance the attack and defensive aspect of the pt. If you can maintain the bonus of MG with just 1 BLU I probably won't say a thing, but no you need 2 to take advantage of it. Which DD benefits punishes people for not inviting 2 of the same job?

Tank isn't always ideal in a double melee setup. It's not used in UNM 135 fights, and it's not used in GS master trial.

[OmnysValefor]

To be honest, my LS still isn't bringing melee to WoC/Kirin/Reisen HELM. I'm on a tank (which I prefer to be) so I'm not sure where my BLU would rank up there (I don't yet have an RMEA for BLU, finished Tiz 75 yesterday). SE has made efforts to make standing near the boss and hitting the boss feasible for appropriately geared melee (which is great), but mages are still preferable.

I've seen enough videos and trusted testimonials of melee clears to know that some LS's do, but it's largely because all there members have best-in-slot gear. People are their 5th Aeonic can do that, most ls's can't.


Point being as you stated, they lack, hence are hindered, also they are SEVERELY hindered by anything with Full Dispel (Which is most everything), whereas BLU is not hindered by anything.

Store TP V, Triple Attack, Acc Bonus IV, DW III, Skillchain Bonus III, Critical Attack Bonus III, Natures Meditation (for crazy attack), Tenebral Crush (for defense down),

If anyone is curious, all that and Erratic Flutter (Haste II) costs 76 points. It means you get 1-2 utility spells. Options are say Occultation/Wild Carrot, Magic Fruit/Cocoon, Barrier Tusk/Cocoon (but then, no cures), Barrier Tusk/Wild Carrot or a short list of others that include things like Saline Coat (which should be frequently recast for good effectieness), and Diamondhide (which really isn't that hot of a spell anymore). If you take Erratic Flutter from the base list and depend on Koru-Moru, you have 6 more points. In that scenario I'd probably Magic Fruit / Occultation / (Saline Coat or Barrier Tusk) .

I know a lot of people look at that and think "Boy if only my warrior had all that", but for this fluidity, BLU gets no any offensive ability besides CA/BA and Efflux. Tenebral Crush is nice when you can stick it, but my top-notch m.acc set on BLU has enough problems landing it on a lot of high end content, unlike Dia II and Frailty.

If it's a situation like gnole last month, or another NM that absolutely is not a threat to anyone but the tanks, and the DD can go all out, equivalently geared DD are going to outperform me, as they probably will in most content.

I think the only trait that was unfair was Acc Bonus, and that's been largely corrected thanks to the AGI nerfs.

[Afania]

To be honest, my LS still isn't bringing melee to WoC/Kirin/Reisen HELM. I'm on a tank (which I prefer to be) so I'm not sure where my BLU would rank up there (I don't yet have an RMEA for BLU, finished Tiz 75 yesterday).


I personally prefer WAR for WoC a bit more, and THF for teles. Would say both NM doesn't favor BLU due to their mechanics. Idk about other NMs though.

I'd recommend aeonic BRD access for meleeing those content, it's pretty tough to have good enough acc with a decent TP/WS set without honor march if you're playing some of the lower acc jobs(aka notBLU DNC DRG RNG). I didn't start making melee pts until some of my close friend got aeonic on BRD.

[Shiyo]

Bottom line:
A job shouldn't be a tank that can buff itself more than a single buffer can while doing the highest damage and having aoe erase + aoe cures.

That's called god mode game shark cheat.

[OmnysValefor]

It can't.

Holy wow. A BLU will not be tanking and simultaneously the highest DPS in anything relevant. BLU's also probably won't be tanking serious stuff. I know I'd never try to tank Koryu on BLU.

This is called uninformed people mishmashing everything they've seen BLUs do in a variety of content. If a BLU is tanking and beating everyone else on DPS, everyone else really really really needs to work on their gear.

[Shiyo]

You misunderstood what I'm saying just so you could throw out baseless insults.
A full DD blu has barrier tusk/cocoon/mg up, that makes them tankier than any DD in the game.
They're insanely tanky DD's which is a huge problem since they also DO THE HIGHEST DPS.

[OmnysValefor]

I'm not trying to insult anyone, but there are a lot of people in this thread that don't understand the job. I asked the OP to name what BLU gives up for survival and heck, that person seems to have bowed out of their own thread. You don't just tank in cocoon and MG, you'll still get wrecked.

And you did say "while", meaning "at the same time".

I understand, you'll continue on and on about everything BLU can do. Few people (Afania being one) in this thread seem to have a reasonable understanding of what the job can actually do.

I don't know, I don't ask for nerfs to jobs I don't understand. It seems wrong.

[Shiyo]

I'm well aware of what a BLU can do. It takes substantially less damage than any other melee DD from mob AOE attacks. That's being tanky while doing the most damage in the game, having aoe erase, having aoe cures and self hasting for 45%.

A moderately intelligent human being can wiki spell tooltips and descriptions. I'm not sure what you're arguing?

BLU literally takes much less damage than any DD, while doing the most DPS in the game for a melee DD(As stated by afania).

The job does too much and has no weakness. That is imbalanced.

[Afania]

BLU literally takes much less damage than any DD, while doing the most DPS in the game for a melee DD(As stated by afania).


Just to clarify myself before massive wave of anti nerf people start another page of drama about this statement. There are some content that BLU isn't the ideal DPS and other DPS are preferred. People have been suspecting woc may have crit-hit dmg taken- trait or enemy crit-hit rate- trait with bracelet up, and many parse result shows BLU doesn't parse high on woc. Also on things like teles CDC spam isn't ideal, making BLU a bit behind as well.

Also in super short zerg THF may come out ahead on parse with SA TA etc, or WAR winning with MS etc.

But without any of these special scenario BLU is still pretty strong, definitely stronger than 75 lv era and 2012 legion era. Should be stronger than 2013/2014 delve 1/2 era too.

I wouldn't say the MOST dps in every single situation, but definitely in some situations and certainly not as behind as people claimed.

That being said I'm not asking for a DPS nerf though, only MG mechanics so pt organizers aren't being punished for inviting 1 BLU 1 DD instead of 2 BLU.

[detlef]

I don't consider that to be an unreasonable position.

[Diavolo]

Bottom line:
A job shouldn't be a tank that can buff itself more than a single buffer can while doing the highest damage and having aoe erase + aoe cures.

That's called god mode game shark cheat.


They're insanely tanky DD's which is a huge problem since they also DO THE HIGHEST DPS.


The job does too much and has no weakness.

http://memeguy.com/photos/thumbs/mrw-my-friends-girlfriend-says-its-fine-for-him-to-go-to-a-strip-club-with-the-rest-of-us-185782.gif

[Stamos]

Afania has been reasonable and fairly consistent on what he is pushing for.

While, others just see something and run with it. Example being, people keep posting like BLU does all these things at once. In general if you're DDing you're not casting all these defensive spells, cures etc. If you are and have them set you will not be anywhere near the top DD. You don't magically have 500 points to set. The best part of BLU is the utility, you set your spells/traits for that event; The WHM you're with kind of sucks? Set Winds of promy, magic fruit, and White Wind etc.

[Jakuk]

Because BST didn't require the best gear to solo as it did but it was still OP and got nerfed...

All jobs require skill and work to play it at its proper level, BLU is not and never has been unique in that, and let's not kid ourselves, you wont be an amazing BLU, but BLU doesn't require that much gear/skill to be acceptable in most content whereas MANY other jobs do.

Set DD spells and one or two defensive spells
Get JP
Get basic gear
Cast Flutter + MG
Spam CDC

Done.

This works in most content bar the 130+ content, and even then it works in some.

[Kuroganashi]

Kuro, please don't be insulting. Most jobs require a superb level of dedication to deck out.

Though there are plenty of BLUs that are not very good but there are plenty of every job that are not very good.

Yeah you have to go out and learn spells, and sometimes that's a frustrating experience (Battery Charge and Self-Destruct were the worst for me, years ago).

Defending your position with insults devalues the point of your defense.

How you basically feel about nerf discussion to a job you like is how everyone feels "I put a lot of work into this, please don't gut it"

Its not Frustrating when you have fun and enjoy doing it ^^

Wish they added more spells

and sides, if you can't enjoy farming and learning the spells, why play BLU then ?

[Fae]

Most MMO's or games period take Area of Effect damage into balance considerations. There are currently only 3 jobs good at AoE damage in FFXI, and then there's others that are comparatively terrible at it due to long timers or having to use weaponskills. Many games, a job good at AoE is a job defining trait, because it is a very powerful tool for a variety of content. Take Vagary for instance. Without AoE damage you can't even do Vagary well. Merit farming, cleaving reisenjima for Job Points, handling adds on dangerous mobs such as Reisenjima T1 Tonberry or Wynav on WoC or even the ability that BLU has to breakga with elemental Seal for resleeping adds on a melee setup of albumen (in which btw BLU is both tanking and doing primary dps, I don't think some of the BLU saying you can't do that here even have experience with it, let alone researched what others are already doing), and there are many many more examples of where AoE damage is needed. So why is an already overtuned and overloaded job like BLU would you drop area of effect damage from the conversation? This and many other points made in my original posts are ignored and so far every person ignoring it happens to play BLU. Hmmm.

Cleaving is very important in FFXI, and adding status effects on top just seems overkill. BLU spells used to be somewhat gated by MP costs and tizona was the answer to that, but in the era of magic hammer and refresh for free out the whazoo, it's not even a barrier and BLU wanting to cleave will use Clubs and spam spells anyway. As stated in my original posts BLU is a problem at all levels of play. Also nerfing diffusion for mighty guard doesn't really help break the BLU only mentality and culture, as they'll just be even less inclined to include other DD that aren't BLU. I'm also astounded that of all the melee DD, a hybrid job that can cleave, enfeeble, cap haste, and have so many buffs also gets the most melee accuracy while also being top of parses (if not the top on the very upper end).

These are the reasons for it's popularity, and it's even pushing out RDM in shout groups for the Ambuscade frog, because their subduction gravity is stronger than most RDM gravity II. RDM niche is enfeebling that is what they have the highest skill in and highest tier spells no one else has. And yet, BLU is even outperforming them when it's important in their niche role. Haste II at one time was also a RDM exclusive thing, and BLU does that better too. BLU obviously melees far better as well. Oh and Tanks better.

BLU in it's current state is basically what every RDM always wanted to be, the best at nearly everything and it's too strong and is really hurting game balance. Look at shouts for content of any kind, look back to skirmish II shouts even. What was most shouted for? BST and BLU. And why was that? Both could be self sufficient, do great single target or aoe damage, and damage type didn't matter. BLU literally is getting the best of all worlds right now, and it is very bad for job balance.

[Diavolo]

BLU in it's current state is basically what every RDM always wanted to be, the best at nearly everything and it's too strong and is really hurting game balance.

Lack of content and steering away from open world design is what's hurting this perception of game balance.

I was practically playing 24/7/365 back in the 75 era and you could bounce around between different events all day long without ever repeating the same event twice. HNMs -> Sky NMs -> Sea NMs -> Limbus -> Dynamis -> Einherjar -> Assaults/Salvage -> BCNMs/KSNMs/Avatars. Even with SAM dominating as melee of choice there was still plenty of room to use other jobs. Now all we have is Escha/Reis, HTBFs, Ambuscade and Master Trials which only a very small portion of the population even attempts.

Worst of all, much of today's content is designed for parties of 6 whereas most of it used to be open to alliances of 18 all the way up to 64 in Dyna's case. 15 people already fighting Sea NMs when you get home from work? No prob, bring any of your jobs and lend a hand. Your LS already fighting Tiamat when you get back from the bar? Bring your WHM/SMN/RDM/whatever and help handle adds or help heal from outside the alliance. You can't do any of that anymore because of the way the game is designed - separating the player/group away from the rest of the world - and that's in large part thanks to the massive amount of complaining from casual players who felt like they couldn't compete against the HNMLS that were using third party tools, which is ironic given the fact that third party tools became much more prevalent after HNMs were eliminated. Funny how that worked out.

Careful what you wish for, you might just get it... and it won't have the desired effect.

[Fae]

Some of the best players I met only use equipsets, what you're talking about is mostly fear mongering and correlating things as if they cause one another. I am all for more varied content to hop around to, more things to do. SAM has been top dog more than once, but varied content wasn't the solution to any job dominating the scene ever, a strong job is strong in pretty much all content that's how it works, especially a job so versatile as BLU. Players complaining to make things easier is a constant theme in any games history or even democracy, I just don't want FFXI dumbed down because without challenge there's no reward. The have nots will want from the haves. Sometimes there is systematic reasons why a group is disenfranchised, job balance is actually part of that equation, sometimes it is justified. Other times, people just want things handed to them and made easier or to get stuff others already have for much less effort which happens anyway when content is phased out. In this instance, BLU is hurting job diversity and balance because it has too much power in one place. For a given DD class, the most I'd expect a balanced game to have is 2x the number of one job than another. As shown by the census earlier, it is over a 22x difference clearly there is a lack of incentive to play other DD and as shown it stems from power.

[Shiyo]

What census shows over x22? I'm really curious.

I literally only see bluemages every time I run by someone or see someone else in game. Every. Single. Time.

[Fae]

Sorry to be more clear, the difference between the least and most used DD job, earlier in the thread I searched jobs on my server and how many were playing them at level 99. The last one showed BLU was 23.25x more played than DRG and was over 20% of the job population in total. While that shouldn't be taken as law and may vary from time to time and by server to a degree I wouldn't be surprised if that was close to the average since both times I did the report the numbers were very similar and whenever I look BLU is always at least 10-20% of the population when if all jobs were evenly distributed which probably shouldn't ever happen, it'd be 4.5%.

[Shiyo]

Yeah, right now blue mage is an epidemic taking over the game. Doing /sea or simply running around and playing the game you'll see literally 20x the amount of blue mages than any other job you run across. It's actually really disturbing.

SE needed to do something about blue mage months ago, it's obviously it's been left alone too long.

I think if they just brought blue mages AOE down to the same plane of existence as every other jobs I'd be pretty happy. It's really not ok that a job can be top tier DD in groups, then go and be the best solo job and the best AOE job in the game.

Why wouldn't you play and be on blu literally 99.99% of the time like the entire player base is? It's good at basically EVERYTHING. You could be a solo casual player and you'd find blue mage very accessible/easy and the best choice for most things you do. You could be a end game player and you'd find blue mage the best choice for most situations you'd play a DD in. The job is just too good at too many things. That cannot exist in a MMO. It is hurting this game SO bad to have a job so broken and strong at so many things.


Please SE, I beg you, do something to fix blue mage. It is NOT ok to have a single job like this in a MMO. 100%. not. ok.

[Vae]

Well it hasn't even happened yet and everyone is already blowing MNK on ah.com so expect all those wagons to at least be off BLU for a couple days.

[BurnNotice]

It comes up frequently on other community forums and am rather surprised it hasn't been posted on the official forums.

In my LS and gameplay I frequently see people abandoning jobs they loved and played for many years to play BLU instead. The reasons for this are multiple, but in my view this isn't much different than when SAM were played so much and 1 hand jobs were given a boost, then too many THF were played and THF was nerfed and then too many people played BST and beast was nerfed. The balance needs restored again or the majority of players in the game might end up playing BLU as one of their active jobs, and that isn't very balanced at all especially considering most people can have time to gear and maintain 3 jobs to endgame levels at most. If this isn't enough proof, look at the number of almaces being made at a sickening rate.

I see its problems as these four points:
1) It has huge aoe nukes, even better than dedicated nuking jobs like BLM. One reason BST was nerfed was it could farm experience points and job points so well, solo. Well, BLU can do this and much more.
2) It has huge soloing potential. I feel one reason BST was nerfed was it could do solo VD battlefields. They can clear those with lots of temps, 1 hours, and high degrees of skill and still take over 10 minutes. BLU is soloing some VD fights in much less time.
3) It can self haste cap, and needs less buffs. The director in the reddit AMA said they didn't want any job to be able to self haste cap as a DD as it is a group game, yet BLU can.
4) It is extremely survivable while also doing great DPS, there is very little tradeoff.

I think this could be solved in a multitude of ways, but am sure SE is able to think of many ways themselves this could be solved. Here are some suggestions I do not expect to be implemented but hope the ideas can help:
A) Nerf their AoE damage. A BLU shouldn't aoe for more than a BLM, let alone have status effects that go on with it that completely disables the entire crowd giving almost no risk even if you don't one shot them.
B) Make them choose more between damage and survivability rather than having both at the same time. This could be accomplished with changes to things like barrier tusk, occultation, cocoon and other defensive spells or by increasing the point costs on extremely good defensive or offensive spells to make them have to choose their role more carefully rather than just be very good at everything. It also means BLU can just go all out and not worry about getting hate from the tank. In fact many setups won't even use a tank they just let BLU do it, and not even change their loaded spells to be more defensive at the cost of damage.
C) Remove haste from MG, the biggest reason to require GEO or BRD in a party is hastecap for DD. As was stated in the AMA, this is a group game. This will also limit their solo potential some as they will be more limited in trusts as every other DD is.
D) Compare their damage output to their versatility and utility, if a change in damage is needed then do it. Though it should be noted that the main draw of BLU isn't that it is the strongest DPS, it's that it is so good of DPS while the rest of this is true and that for the most part due to survival it is rather foolproof and easy to accomplish.

I apologize in advance for posting a topic that will likely require moderation due to flaring passions and people throwing insults around especially by BLU players who enjoy the benefits of the job and do not wish for a nerf, at the same time I feel this is a big issue in the game currently and feel it needs to be posted, the game itself suffers if there is a huge job imbalance and there most definitely is at all levels of play. I think there is a lack of challenging content in the game vs the overall content of the game, and feel it is a lot more work to buff a ton of jobs rather than nerf the one causing the problem. Nerfs do make some of the player base upset, but so does a game where balance problems are left unchecked. I'm sure some BST, THF and SAM quit as a result of changes, but at the same time I doubt it was many and for that same reason only. A new bandwagon job may eventually emerge, but that doesn't mean balance shouldn't be actively maintained. This issue is brought up time and time again on community websites because it is a very obvious issue to players and cause for concern.

Sorry, but I have to move against the idea of nerfing BLU. Although I am not a career BLU, it does take a tremendous amount of time to gather and learn spells, compiling the right gear, and weapons. Also, I seen other jobs like RDM, BST, and DNC solo way better than BLU.

[Vae]

Sorry, but I have to move against the idea of nerfing BLU. Although I am not a career BLU, it does take a tremendous amount of time to gather and learn spells, compiling the right gear, and weapons. Also, I seen other jobs like RDM, BST, and DNC solo way better than BLU.

Ok, no, it doesn't. I can start a new account today, get every piece of blu gear, write all the macros, and get all the spells you need in less than a week. The only reason it would take more than one day is because you physically cannot enter reisenjima for a week or so.

Blu doesnt take any more or less effort than any other job (except whm). They don't get special treatment because you think its hard to learn spells.

[Afania]

Sorry, but I have to move against the idea of nerfing BLU. Although I am not a career BLU, it does take a tremendous amount of time to gather and learn spells, compiling the right gear, and weapons. Also, I seen other jobs like RDM, BST, and DNC solo way better than BLU.

I'm not seeing how RDM, or even DNC solo way better than BLU, personally. You're competing against a job that can cap magic haste solo, with massive physical/magic def, ability to /RUN without losing DW, ability to aoe adds efficiently, or aoe sleep adds, and native blink shadow without needing to /NIN, and ability to aoe stoneskin and buffer trust HPs.

RDM and DNC can only do a few of these things while BLU can do all.

[Gwydion]

Why does any job have to be nerfed? All jobs should be re-evaluated, including the JP Gifts to bring them closer to the desirability of BLU.

[Vae]

No one can argue that the gifts for most jobs are complete junk compared to blu. (sch and blm being outliers).

Square does not understand simple concepts of balance, the answer is always nerf. And it is REALLY overdue. The sooner they get it over with the sooner we can focus on the next issue of superimbalance.

[Shiyo]

Sorry, but I have to move against the idea of nerfing BLU. Although I am not a career BLU, it does take a tremendous amount of time to gather and learn spells, compiling the right gear, and weapons. Also, I seen other jobs like RDM, BST, and DNC solo way better than BLU.
For the 9 billionth time, this is NOT a blue mage only problem.

Blue mages are not special snowflakes, every job in the game takes time, effort, and dedication to play properly ;/

[Jakuk]

Why does any job have to be nerfed? All jobs should be re-evaluated, including the JP Gifts to bring them closer to the desirability of BLU.

Because in a game with limited developer time/work expecting all OTHER jobs to be buffed instead of one being nerfed is unrealistic.


Sorry, but I have to move against the idea of nerfing BLU. Although I am not a career BLU, it does take a tremendous amount of time to gather and learn spells, compiling the right gear, and weapons. Also, I seen other jobs like RDM, BST, and DNC solo way better than BLU.

No it doesn't it takes less time to gear than RDM due to having less to gear for. (In the majority of situations.)

BLUE MAGE
DMG Taken
Melee
WS
BLUE MAGIC skill (Though not required)
Magic DMG (Only if AoE burning)

RED MAGE
DMG Taken
Melee
WS
Healing
Enhancing
Enfeebling
Magic DMG

Heck most jobs require more gear than BLU does.

Spells is the only thing BLU has over others and since most situations only require the higher tier spells now you can avoid most of them too unless you're a completionist.

--

Sorry, but you're being very untruthful on the solo aspect.

BST may have been better, once upon a time, but that resulted in the nerf that now makes it immensely dangerous for them and their poor defensive measures to do, requiring PERFECT timing or assured death.

RDM may have somewhat safety when soloing but take a MUCH longer time to kill.

DNC can solo some stuff but not much.

BLU solo's with speed and safety so no, no job solo's anywhere near BLU level, only one close is SCH and most of that is done Via Helix > Die > Reraise, Recover > Helix and so on.

[Stamos]

BLU is one of the most gear extensive jobs in the game. You can't scream "They have too much utility" and then say they don't have to gear for that utility. Would say the only jobs comparable to BLU gear wise would be maybe RDM, SCH, PUP, and BST. Maybe throw in SMN there.



You are severely under playing how many sets BLU uses. You can't place one job based off a terrible player, and another on a competent player for your sets example.

Blu healing + blu white wind(hp+)
Macc/Add effect for Sudden Lunge/spells with additional effect
Blu physical spells(different mods for spells)
really many more, but it is silly.


BST is way better at soloing than BLU, unless you're including with trusts and lower tier stuff. Then sure?
RDM is better at soloing than BLU
PUP is better at soloing than BLU

DNC is a better DD than BLU, but I would say is worse than BLU at soloing. Unless whatever you're fighting doesn't have much HP.

SCH is king at soloing, and it isn't even close. Would place BLU around 4th or 5th at soloing.

[Zetaking]

Blu gear sets
WS:1 savage/expiation/black halo (generally stack in order of str, wsd, acc and attack so there sets are very similar so will list as one)
2 Cdc
3 Sanguine blade
4 realm/req (similar set to savage but ftp transfers so having neck and belt does make the set different, also mnd actually means more than str for these 2)

Fast cast set

mid cast: 1 Skill dependent buff (mostly Occultation and magic barrier as a sub set could include battery charge and regeneration because of the fact regen+ and refresh+ potency/duration do effect them )
2 non skill dependent buff (barrier tusk ext generally stacking conserve mp and haste/fast cast/recast delay gear)
3 Phalanx set (pretty much the only enhancing magic buff blu cares about from rdm and taeon can get you +3 per slot and dark mater augments as high as 5+ for 15-25 extra off the base from skill[of at least 14 up to 18 iirc]
4 physical melee spells dmg
5 Physical melee spells Add effect
6 magical spells Dmg
7 magical debuffs
8 cure set magic fruit/wildcarrot/ext
9 White wind set(enough of the gear is different to consider them different sets)
10 enmity set


Tp sets
1 Multi attack(low acc)
2 High acc set
3 high acc dt set
4 stp set (mostly for Tazona's af3 but has merit with heavy clubs as well)
5 full dt/mevasion set (aka the panic button when the big nasty move is going down)

this should cover the major sets i mean there are alot of items i cant really call a set tho thay have important uses, like the diffusion boots 1 item a set does not make >.>;, also melee spells generally its easiest to stack str and acc before getting fancy, and the magical spells... well... a lot, and i mean A LOT of niche items there (pixi hairpin, weather spoon ring, that neck from the tree that i cant recall its name atm starts with a Q, ext but generally stacking int and matt is a good place to start.

[Jakuk]

BLU is one of the most gear extensive jobs in the game. You can't scream "They have too much utility" and then say they don't have to gear for that utility. Would say the only jobs comparable to BLU gear wise would be maybe RDM, SCH, PUP, and BST. Maybe throw in SMN there.



You are severely under playing how many sets BLU uses. You can't place one job based off a terrible player, and another on a competent player for your sets example.

Blu healing + blu white wind(hp+)
Macc/Add effect for Sudden Lunge/spells with additional effect
Blu physical spells(different mods for spells)
really many more, but it is silly.


BST is way better at soloing than BLU, unless you're including with trusts and lower tier stuff. Then sure?
RDM is better at soloing than BLU
PUP is better at soloing than BLU

DNC is a better DD than BLU, but I would say is worse than BLU at soloing. Unless whatever you're fighting doesn't have much HP.

SCH is king at soloing, and it isn't even close. Would place BLU around 4th or 5th at soloing.

To play properly, yes it does, but the argument is not against those playing properly, it's the fact they can gear sub-par and do it as well if not better than most the others jobs with equal gear. I have no qualms with those playing it to the best of BLU's ability, they should be strong, but those not doing so should NOT be as strong as they are.

I compared the two sets for the two jobs for one clear reason, that is the minimum requirement to SOLO for each job. RDM needs far more gear than BLU to solo. So yes, I can compare the two as it's relevant

That said, you are also ignoring the fact that 99.9% of the BLU player base do NOT use many spells bar maybe 3 or 4 (Which don't need special gear), unless they are Cleaving, since in most cases casting these spells is a substantial DPS drop, same way most DRK's will not cast, or other melee casters for the self-same reason. So including sets for them is pointless as even the best BLU's will not use them and is simply done so to increase gear set totals to prove your point.

I'll disagree with your ranking as I've seen many cases that disprove it.

[OmnysValefor]

The time it takes to learn spells can't really be an argument for BLU's strengths/weaknesses. I must admit that's a weak defense. Mages don't get to complain about the high cost of spells they paid for years ago and even some today.

You can say "I could do it in a week" (get all the spells/gear/macros), but it's probably harder than you think it is and it depends on what you define as "gear" and how much you're contributing to the fight. Are you getting friends or your main to carry you, or are you going out there in sparks gear and fighting through Escha NMs and easier versions of Ambuscade? If you're getting crazy assistance, anything can be geared in a week.

Edit: It also depends what you mean by all spells. Sometimes, even with diaga or blugeon spam, getting the mob to tp and use the spell you want it to and winning the RNG game of learning the spell can be rough. Battery Charge and Self-Destruct were awffffullll for me. Some were hard, some weren't, but those two were the worst.

A lot of the spells are irrelevant for actual use, but equipped because they cost less Blue Magic Points to achieve the same tier..

---

I would say BLU is a bit more difficult than most melee to gear.

You need varying levels of TP sets (low/mid/high acc), dt sets, multiple ws sets. All this applies to every melee. You need Fast Casts sets (technically applies to every melee except probably sam, mostly NIN, RDM, DRK, BST, Other jobs for /nin, but nin isn't that useful anymore). Need a skill set (applies to DRK, RUN, RDM, NIN). You need an MACC set (DRK, RDM, NIN--butlol). BLU needs a healing potency set.

BLU doesn't "need" a skill set any more than RDM "needs" an enhancing set or a duration set. Dedicated BLU/RDM will have it, others will not. BLU not having a skillset will probably be more punitive on the BLU.

No offense but I'm being really generous including RDM in these lists. I should list PLD before I list RDM.

BLU should have idealized sets for preferred physical spells, but this isn't 2008, your primary source of physical damage is how fast you can get to 1k TP and what you can do with that, especially stacked with other melee that TPing right along with you. Try to CDC>Sinker Drill? You won't get the MB off before someone else has ws'd something. Hopefully it's rudra's.

Highly skilled and highly dedicated, BST probably can still solo things that equally-played BLU can't. BST still does probably have maybe the most amazing 1hr in the game. It's also probably true that BLU might solo things BST can't. I've said before, I don't play this game to solo.

We can talk and talk about why BST was nerfed but when you look at what the change actually affected, the answer is clear: BST could stand at max range and do maximum damage, safe from most enfeebles/aoes and at the bare minimum of enmity. I've always agreed that the distance is restricted too far, but the distance needed restricted. BST didn't get nerfed because of its AOE capability because that remains exactly as good as it was in cleaving XP and in boss fights.

I can't really think of any mechanic in any fight that BLU can just ignore either. Yes, we can erase debuffs and reapply Haste, if we set an erase to do that (losing some other spell, thus losing DPS), or sub dancer, white mage or scholar (blu/dnc is gross, blu/whm is, and blu/sch is for melee). Those same options are also available to other melee. Trusts can do it, virtually any whm trust will, but you can't frame a balance discussion around what trusts can do.

When BLU does sub dnc, it loses any respectable offensive ability. All it has is Chain Affinity, Burst Affinity, and Efflux. It gains the same weaker Reverse Flourish every job /dnc has. BLU's 2hr's are also pretty lackluster compared to most DD/Pet DD. It gains Dual Wield but thankfully, gifts don't amp up traits that subs give. You either go with the slower attack speed or you work with usual spells. Alternatively, you can gear more DW+ and otherwise lose DPS from the multi-attack/store-tp gear that you're wearing. Of course, 5% from Haste Samba is worth mentioning.

We can talk about BLU's ability to delay cap, which is beneficial to every job, but most DD have their own traits that people don't consider. In a party with an RDM, SMN, BRD, Frequently GEO (there are often times your group just doesn't need anything else), or another BLU, the value of BLU's DPS enhancements (delay reduction) falters (For the fights that last long enough/spammed, MG is nice from a second BLU).

None of BLU's offensive abilities affect how hard it WS's. Nature's Meditation (atk boost) does and Tenebral does (difficult to land on things worthwhile. If you have a geo, it's probably not even worth using). BLU's strength comes in from the traits it can set (Triple attack, Critical Attack Bonus, Store TP, Skillchain Bonus), but all of these things are applying towards a blank slate.

I can share some sort of delay reduction with you, you can't share your abilities with me.

I realize people are pretty set in their own opinion, and this won't sway anyone, but it was worth stating.

[OmnysValefor]

Also I've been in groups with blu's that TP in full Jhakri or use outdated spells because they've been lazy. Everyone else, sometimes even the tank, are doing much more damage than them.

If sufficient means they can hit the boss and their ws's do damage. Bad spellsets or Jhakri (or any ambuscade set) is enough.

With the exception of monk (I honestly don't know how bad monk is, because I never see them), if you're in just an ambuscade set, you will be outdps'ing such a BLU. I'm sure Monk would be too but I never ever see monk.

[Shiyo]

BLU is one of the most gear extensive jobs in the game. You can't scream "They have too much utility" and then say they don't have to gear for that utility. Would say the only jobs comparable to BLU gear wise would be maybe RDM, SCH, PUP, and BST. Maybe throw in SMN there.



You are severely under playing how many sets BLU uses. You can't place one job based off a terrible player, and another on a competent player for your sets example.

Blu healing + blu white wind(hp+)
Macc/Add effect for Sudden Lunge/spells with additional effect
Blu physical spells(different mods for spells)
really many more, but it is silly.


BST is way better at soloing than BLU, unless you're including with trusts and lower tier stuff. Then sure?
RDM is better at soloing than BLU
PUP is better at soloing than BLU

DNC is a better DD than BLU, but I would say is worse than BLU at soloing. Unless whatever you're fighting doesn't have much HP.

SCH is king at soloing, and it isn't even close. Would place BLU around 4th or 5th at soloing.
None of that matters.
"my job takes more gear sets so it should be better".

I'm pretty sure anyone in the entire game would GLADLY be ok with needing more gear if it meant their job was the strongest in the entire game .

Also I've been in groups with blu's that TP in full Jhakri or use outdated spells because they've been lazy. Everyone else, sometimes even the tank, are doing much more damage than them.

If sufficient means they can hit the boss and their ws's do damage. Bad spellsets or Jhakri (or any ambuscade set) is enough.

With the exception of monk (I honestly don't know how bad monk is, because I never see them), if you're in just an ambuscade set, you will be outdps'ing such a BLU. I'm sure Monk would be too but I never ever see monk.

None of that matters, either. You shouldn't compare someone who is basically afk and not trying at all to someone who is properly geared. That argument makes...no actual sense.

A job isn't OP unless it can out damage everyone while naked? I...don't understand?

[Afania]

BLU is one of the most gear extensive jobs in the game. You can't scream "They have too much utility" and then say they don't have to gear for that utility. Would say the only jobs comparable to BLU gear wise would be maybe RDM, SCH, PUP, and BST. Maybe throw in SMN there.



You are severely under playing how many sets BLU uses. You can't place one job based off a terrible player, and another on a competent player for your sets example.

Blu healing + blu white wind(hp+)
Macc/Add effect for Sudden Lunge/spells with additional effect
Blu physical spells(different mods for spells)
really many more, but it is silly.


BST is way better at soloing than BLU, unless you're including with trusts and lower tier stuff. Then sure?
RDM is better at soloing than BLU
PUP is better at soloing than BLU

DNC is a better DD than BLU, but I would say is worse than BLU at soloing. Unless whatever you're fighting doesn't have much HP.

SCH is king at soloing, and it isn't even close. Would place BLU around 4th or 5th at soloing.

Exactly what makes RDM being better at soloing than BLU? I'm just not seeing it. BLU can self cap haste, /RUN for magic evasion AND still maintain DW PLUS AoE stoneskin for NPC to prevent them from dying, then AoE sleep or cleave adds if NM pops them. BLU's output is also massive compare with RDMs. RDM pretty much has to rely on single wield SJ to AoE things, can't self cap haste, and even with DW SJ the output is still below BLU.

I'm not seeing RDM being a better soloer than BLU, if anything it just kills slower on most things.

[OmnysValefor]

I meant to touch on that too. RDM has barspells and more practical spell costs (which isn't a huge concern in Escha).

Many people on both sides are reaching pretty far.

RDM would be a better kite-soloer but pretty sure that's laughably niche these days and SCH is arguably better though it lacks higher tiers of Frazzle and Gravity.

Yes, subduction, but blu spell costs and ranges make that idea laughable--before anyone says it.

[Afania]

I would say BLU is a bit more difficult than most melee to gear.

You need varying levels of TP sets (low/mid/high acc), dt sets, multiple ws sets. All this applies to every melee. You need Fast Casts sets (technically applies to every melee except probably sam, mostly NIN, RDM, DRK, BST, Other jobs for /nin, but nin isn't that useful anymore). Need a skill set (applies to DRK, RUN, RDM, NIN). You need an MACC set (DRK, RDM, NIN--butlol). BLU needs a healing potency set.


You guys are exaggerating the gear set difference between BLU and other jobs. Anyone who gear their job seriously would have all of the sets you listed for their job, whether it's BLU or not.

For example on COR I have all of the sets that you listed and more: varying acc levels of TP sets for both melee and ranged(low/mid/high acc). I have 4 different dt- sets(physical/magical/hybrid melee/status resist), I have 6 different ws set for COR 6 primary ws(savage/leaden/wf/last stand/req/evis), I have FC set for /NIN and /mage, enhancing magic skill set for phalanx, stoneskin set, healing potency for cure III/Cure IV for /mage, I also have macc set for light and dark shot.

Oh and let's not get into JA sets, QD dmg and QD stp sets, different variation of roll sets(pdt- hybrid, or mp+ hybrid so you don't lose as much mp /mage when doing rolls), ranged crit-hit builds, waltz set for /DNC, refresh sets etc etc etc.

Anyways, my point is that anyone that plays their job seriously, regardless of which job would have massive amount of sets, it's not BLU only. We just see massive waves of BLU players on the forum carrying that many sets because some of the most vocal players in NA community are career BLUs, so they advocate 400 million sets on their favorite job. But in reality you don't need THAT many gear sets(regardless of the job) to do events. Like COR only need leaden/qd/roll set to do endgame, BLU certainly don't need conserve MP for everything people bring BLU for....you can build one if you love BLU, but you're not going to see massive performance difference between a BLU with conserve MP build and a BLU without.

Despite I have that many sets on COR, I'm not going to pretend my COR massively outperforms bandwagon DP3 COR with just roll/leaden/qd set in endgame, nor tell people "you need every sets that I listed or else you suck" like some people here.

[Afania]

I meant to touch on that too. RDM has barspells and more practical spell costs (which isn't a huge concern in Escha).

Many people on both sides are reaching pretty far.

RDM would be a better kite-soloer but pretty sure that's laughably niche these days and SCH is arguably better though it lacks higher tiers of Frazzle and Gravity.

Yes, subduction, but blu spell costs and ranges make that idea laughable--before anyone says it.

Admittedly I haven't actually look into ideal meva/mdef build of BLU/RUN with every JT/spell set v.s RDM/NIN casting barspells when it comes to magic dmg taken reduction. But even if RDM/NIN comes out as better job in terms of taking magic dmg with barspells, I highly doubt the difference is that huge to be able to claim RDM is way better solo job than BLU. Considering RDM can't aoe stoneskin for trusts and maintain DW like BLU could, I'm still not seeing RDM having a huge advantage over BLU, personally.

[OmnysValefor]

You guys are exaggerating the gear set difference between BLU and other jobs. Anyone who gear their job seriously would have all of the sets you listed for their job, whether it's BLU or not.

For example on COR I have all of the sets that you listed and more: varying acc levels of TP sets for both melee and ranged(low/mid/high acc). I have 4 different dt- sets(physical/magical/hybrid melee/status resist), I have 6 different ws set for COR 6 primary ws(savage/leaden/wf/last stand/req/evis), I have FC set for /NIN and /mage, enhancing magic skill set for phalanx, stoneskin set, healing potency for cure III/Cure IV for /mage, I also have macc set for light and dark shot.

Oh and let's not get into JA sets, QD dmg and QD stp sets, different variation of roll sets(pdt- hybrid, or mp+ hybrid so you don't lose as much mp /mage when doing rolls), ranged crit-hit builds, waltz set for /DNC, refresh sets etc etc etc.

Anyways, my point is that anyone that plays their job seriously, regardless of which job would have massive amount of sets, it's not BLU only. We just see massive waves of BLU players on the forum carrying that many sets because some of the most vocal players in NA community are career BLUs, so they advocate 400 million sets on their favorite job. But in reality you don't need THAT many gear sets(regardless of the job) to do events. Like COR only need leaden/qd/roll set to do endgame, BLU certainly don't need conserve MP for everything people bring BLU for....you can build one if you love BLU, but you're not going to see massive performance difference between a BLU with conserve MP build and a BLU without.

Despite I have that many sets on COR, I'm not going to pretend my COR massively outperforms bandwagon DP3 COR with just roll/leaden/qd set in endgame, nor tell people "you need every sets that I listed or else you suck" like some people here.

When I said a bit, I literally only meant a bit, which is why I covered other jobs that need similar sets.

Edit: on the other topic of rdm soloing, that was merely all I could think of. I don't see rdm melee soloing anything a blu can't.

[Shiyo]

Being the best solo job, being the best AOE job(by an astronomical amount) and being the best DD in most situations is pretty not ok.

The player base understands this, it's why you constantly run into BLU's all over the place and if it's the most played job.

[Diavolo]

Being the best solo job, being the best AOE job(by an astronomical amount) and being the best DD in most situations is pretty not ok.

The player base understands this, it's why you constantly run into BLU's all over the place and if it's the most played job.

For the sake of discussion, why do you think a player would consciously choose to make a game such as FFXI more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to play BLU?

[Vae]

For the sake of discussion, why do you think a player would consciously choose to make a game such as FFXI more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to play BLU?

Simply for the sake of discussion. Playing the same job all the time for every event because it's so clearly better than the rest of the choices is extremely boring. FFXI was founded on the ability to use any job without making a new account.

Just think if you couldn't change gear anymore, that's basically what BLU is doing.

[Urthdigger]

For the sake of discussion, why do you think a player would consciously choose to make a game such as FFXI more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to play BLU?

Why do we need more than one DD, tank, or healer job?

[Stamos]

Difference from what you're saying and what I am saying is, the gear I am stating is for the main job. You're bringing up sets for different sub jobs. I am exclusively talking about BLU main only.


As for RDM being better solo, I was under the impression we were talking without trusts. With trusts BLU will be better than RDM.



The whole AOE nuking thing is something BLU has going for it, but I believe it is designed that way because almost all of BLUs nukes are Aoe and they can only be MB'd once every two minutes. Once again, it is not the best solo job. Certain People keep just throwing random things out there without any facts(Not Afania).

[Shiyo]

For the sake of discussion, why do you think a player would consciously choose to make a game such as FFXI more difficult than it needs to be by refusing to play BLU?
Why wouldn't I use a strategy guide?

Why wouldn't I use cheats?

Why would I ever play on a difficulty above "easy"

Humans gravitate towards the easiest way to do things, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to.

It also shows that a job is completely broken when it's the first logical/best choice in SOOO many situations.

[Diavolo]

Humans gravitate towards the easiest way to do things, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to.

Yes, they do, but you haven't. Why not play a job you described as being godly?

[Urmom]

Yes, they do, but you haven't. Why not play a job you described as being godly?

People also tend to gravitate to preferences

[Shiyo]

Yes, they do, but you haven't. Why not play a job you described as being godly?
I don't understand the purpose of the question or this conversation.

[Numquam]

I don't understand the purpose of the question or this conversation.

This thread lost meaning about 10 pages ago.

[Dale]

Are we not playing a video game when we log into FFXI? This isn't a job. You aren't going to lose your ability to continue playing if you take 15-30 seconds longer to complete a battle on a different job. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not logging into FFXI to make money as fast as possible with a boss judging your every move.

There are 22 jobs in this game and they will never be 100% equally balanced. Even if that utopian setting was possible (what a frighteningly boring image that paints) you still have to deal with a wide variety of skill levels from one player to the next. That's not a weakness, it's a strength. Why not accept it and take advantage of everything the game offers you?

Agreed.

People obsess over this idea that all jobs need to be balanced to the point it ruins the game for them. They are so worried about another job supposedly being better than them at something that they forget what video games are actually suppose to be about - and that is having fun.

If your job is fun to play then it is basically fine. This game never has been never will be or should be 100% balanced. That would make for a very boring game. And these players who obsess over minutia and refuse to group with jobs they believe to be inferior would find reasons not to group with you even if the game was 100% balanced.

Because their balance argument is just the excuse they use. The real reason is there own sense of elitism - and SE can't fix that.

[Shiyo]

The problem is that bluemage can do everything, and do some things better than everyone. That creates a situation where you have over half your player base on a single job at any given time, as the job is the optimal choice in so many situations.

It's bad for the health of the game.

It's fine to have imbalance, but it is NOT fine for a job that is capable of doing EVERYTHING to be the BEST at multiple things. That ruins the game.

[Urthdigger]

Agreed.

People obsess over this idea that all jobs need to be balanced to the point it ruins the game for them. They are so worried about another job supposedly being better than them at something that they forget what video games are actually suppose to be about - and that is having fun.

If your job is fun to play then it is basically fine. This game never has been never will be or should be 100% balanced. That would make for a very boring game. And these players who obsess over minutia and refuse to group with jobs they believe to be inferior would find reasons not to group with you even if the game was 100% balanced.

Because their balance argument is just the excuse they use. The real reason is there own sense of elitism - and SE can't fix that.

It's a matter of scale. I'm not going to demand that every job be PRECISELY equal, that just leads to bland gameplay. But it definitely needs to be closer than it is today. Back at 75 cap, everyone knew SAM was the best melee, but you COULD still do merits and various endgame events as other melee. Compare that to nowadays, where playing a DD besides BLM or BLU is relegated strictly to LS members taking pity on you. The difference between jobs is so vast these days that for a lot of events people would rather have an EMPTY SLOT than take a lot of the jobs out there.

This isn't just about being "so worried that we forget to have fun." It's about being able to play with people on the job we choose. It's about knowing full well that we're dragging our group down. It's about knowing that this fight that's kicking our ass could be so easily resolved by simply stepping into line and picking the same job as everyone else, that our own stubbornness is making things drastically more difficult. That the promise of all these jobs to play is a lie, and that the list of feasible jobs for any content is so drastically smaller.

[saevel]

Umm BLU isn't the best DPS job anymore by a long shot, it's just able to function in extremely low buff / unsupported situations. Also BLU can't do nearly all the stuff people claim it can simultaneously, there is a huge learning curve associated with the different configurations and modes of play associated. The biggest bonus is that the job can effective remove useless job traits and replace them with useful job traits.

Try for a moment to imagine a Thief being able to remove "Resist Gravity" or "Evasion Bonus" and replace them with "Attack Bonus", "Accuracy Bonus" or "Magic Attack Bonus". Ninja's have "Resist Bind" and "Subtle Blow", both of which are useless in a full on DPS race. Many jobs have JT's and JA's that are extremely situation and rarely will all be used together but the job is incapable of doing anything about it. BLU on the other hand can essentially rewrite it's JT list with a relative small delay (though large enough to not be practical mid battle). This means a BLU only needs to have JT's that it will actually and thus it's capable of playing at 100% of it's potential vs other jobs being limited to 70~80%. To do this requires the player be intimately familiar with each fights mechanics and know how to work that build with their own gear and content. That is why those super BLU's are able to do that crazy stuff, not because of their gil (though that helps) but because they spent a lot of time learning game mechanics.

[Shiyo]

No, blue mage players are not "just more skilled than everyone else".

Afania has also posted that spreadsheets show bluemage wins in a lot of situations as the #1 DD.

[Vae]

Umm BLU isn't the best DPS job anymore by a long shot, it's just able to function in extremely low buff / unsupported situations. Also BLU can't do nearly all the stuff people claim it can simultaneously, there is a huge learning curve associated with the different configurations and modes of play associated. The biggest bonus is that the job can effective remove useless job traits and replace them with useful job traits.

Try for a moment to imagine a Thief being able to remove "Resist Gravity" or "Evasion Bonus" and replace them with "Attack Bonus", "Accuracy Bonus" or "Magic Attack Bonus". Ninja's have "Resist Bind" and "Subtle Blow", both of which are useless in a full on DPS race. Many jobs have JT's and JA's that are extremely situation and rarely will all be used together but the job is incapable of doing anything about it. BLU on the other hand can essentially rewrite it's JT list with a relative small delay (though large enough to not be practical mid battle). This means a BLU only needs to have JT's that it will actually and thus it's capable of playing at 100% of it's potential vs other jobs being limited to 70~80%. To do this requires the player be intimately familiar with each fights mechanics and know how to work that build with their own gear and content. That is why those super BLU's are able to do that crazy stuff, not because of their gil (though that helps) but because they spent a lot of time learning game mechanics.

Youre describing how blu is on paper. Which is true.

The point you're neglecting is blu isn't played that way. pretty much at all. Blu is played 95% of the time, in FULL DD spec. And suffers no penalties what-so-ever. The mass majority of the time you (need) zero utility spells.

Also, we're not allowed to talk negatively about other players, but Afania, isn't someone worth listening to. He's usually half-right, at best. Too many opinions, his scenarios are just that, fictional scenarios.

[saevel]

Youre describing how blu is on paper. Which is true.

The point you're neglecting is blu isn't played that way. pretty much at all. Blu is played 95% of the time, in FULL DD spec. And suffers no penalties what-so-ever. The mass majority of the time you (need) zero utility spells.

Also, we're not allowed to talk negatively about other players, but Afania, isn't someone worth listening to. He's usually half-right, at best. Too many opinions, his scenarios are just that, fictional scenarios.

This is highly incorrect and spoken from someone who doesn't know how the job works. There simply aren't enough set points to equip everything you need and you always end up needing to leave things out. Which exact things you leave out is extremely situational and that's where the massive difference between a "bandwagon" and a "real" is.

I'm an absurdly well geared BLU and I have long since stopped bringing my BLU to melee burns. It's not nearly as powerful as people make it out to be. This is like all those people who complained RDM was "SO OVERPOWERED" because Avesta went around soloing HNM's. And Shiyo your on Asura, speak to me if you need demonstrated that BLU isn't anywhere clear to the #1 DD. The spreed sheets were incredibly wrong because they had CDC listed as 2.25 fTP per hit when it was really 1.63 which is about ~35% error.

To compare
CDC 3 + 1 hit 80% DEX critical, 1.63 copy fTP, with Belt + Gorget your looking at 1.83 per hit for a total of 7.32 with any Multi-Attack procs adding 1.83 per hit.

Vorpal Blade 4 + 1 hit 60% STR critical, 1.375 copy fTP, belt + Gorget gives you 1.575 per hit with a total of 7.875 and MA's giving you +1.575.

The real advantage BLU's have is that they can self cap haste via Flutter + MG which means you don't need to both with Indi-Haste or March's. In a low man situation that is invaluable. BLU can also set several defensive abilities like Occultation, Erasega, Restoral / W.Wind / M.Fruit and Cocoon, which means you don't need as much healing and they are less likely to be insta-murdered by something big and nasty. Overall this makes BLU the absolute king of low man / low buff groups. As far as pure offensive power goes, there are better jobs. Of course THF and MNK aren't among those jobs which is where most people are crying over. If you happen to have a certain overpowered DD in your party then CDC isn't even BLU's best WS anymore.

[OmnysValefor]

Try for a moment to imagine a Thief being able to remove "Resist Gravity" or "Evasion Bonus" and replace them with "Attack Bonus", "Accuracy Bonus" or "Magic Attack Bonus". Ninja's have "Resist Bind" and "Subtle Blow", both of which are useless in a full on DPS race. ...

Accurate but add in giving up SA and TA, because anyone would give up a non-dps trair for a dps trait. Different weapons and ws types. Maybe dnc giving up flourishea but keeping steps (-def) is a better example.

The only offensive unique buff blu keeps is Nature's Meditation (since your group can haste cap without blu).

Truthfully, I know that's not quite an even trade, but that's what blu is these days. CA and BA have little relevance.

In a melee zerg, ca isn't worth using. In mage, you'll not be relying on CA to skillchain and BA will probably cost more mb damage than it gives.

Edit: rearranged paragraphs

[Shiyo]

If blu wasn't so powerful, why does nearly EVERYONE play it?

Have you /sea'd?
Have you looked at shouts?
Have you...ran around the game and seen what jobs people are?
You'll see over half the player base at any given time is blue mage.

There's a reason for that.

[Stamos]

On Leviathan -
314 people online
41 are on Blu

13%~

[Afania]

The spreed sheets were incredibly wrong because they had CDC listed as 2.25 fTP per hit when it was really 1.63 which is about ~35% error.


I believe the current version of BLU spreadsheet has CDC fTP values fixed. And yes I'm aware that in full buff zerg situations WAR is king for DPS. I prefer WAR in zergs a lot, and played with WAR a lot, I'm fully aware that BLU doesn't always win parse in endgame.

But a top end BLU is by no means as weak as people claimed. Every once a while there are people claiming "My DRG DRK or X DD beats BLU", they usually either beat a gimp one or just a few runs that they happened to be 3% ahead.

As a DPS job BLU is still highly competitive, I'm not saying it's zomg awesome super strong DPS that wins every single parse, but they are definitely not behind unless they're parsing against WAR in zerg situations.

It's just that every once a while I keep hearing people saying "BLU doesn't deal a lot of DPS so it's utility is justified" or "BLU DPS doesn't increase compare with pre JT2 era", I personally disagree and find claims like this misleading. The gap between BLU's DPS and other real DD such as SAM DRG DRK MNK definitely has decreased since JT2 released, while BLU's utility increased with better spells and better traits. Overall that makes BLU a more attractive option for DPS players compare with other DPS when people level DPS job, or pick DPS job for events.

Personally I still think 2014 BLU is "just right" in terms of DPS balance, post 2014 BLU gained a lot more as a whole while other DD mostly remains stagnant.

Anyways, I think the dmg has been done and since SE already made BLU competitive DPS as a hybrid job, I think nerfing it's DPS will just backfire and won't do any good to the community. That's why I'm promoting MG nerf, so at least in situations that favors bringing BLU as DPS your 2nd DD slot isn't locked to another BLU.

[Fae]

Friendly reminder that ad hominem/personal attacks are against the terms of service, if you guys keep it up and get banned don't go crying on another website about how unfair moderation is when you can't follow posted rules. You can say you're against ideas or express your opinion and reason why but attacking others is below the belt and uncalled for and ineffective.

Personally I find Afania to be one of the very few people that is posting support for their claims, where as most the posts are begging the question for their own statements and then using straw man/red herring/appeals to emotion on everyone else's post and then even following that up with appeals to incredulity or simply cherry picking whatever they feel is weakest and ignore the rest in an attempt to discredit all of it. Basically very little posts that actual have content in them, which doesn't build a strong case for BLU.

[Afania]

The spreed sheets were incredibly wrong because they had CDC listed as 2.25 fTP per hit when it was really 1.63 which is about ~35% error.


Ok I just found out the reason why my spreadsheet result seems to have smaller gap than what people expected, it's not that BLU spreadsheet is wrong, it's the WAR spreadsheet didn't have updated calculation at high pDIF situations.

If someone has Nightfyre's fixed version spreadsheet feel free to publish updated DPS comparison.

Also please note that WAR atm is one of the strongest DPS at capped pdif situations. Even if that makes BLU a bit more behind(as it should for a hybrid job) at capped pdif situations I'd say it's probably still highly competitive against other DPS jobs like DRG, NIN, MNK and possibly SAM and such.

[saevel]

Ok I just found out the reason why my spreadsheet result seems to have smaller gap than what people expected, it's not that BLU spreadsheet is wrong, it's the WAR spreadsheet didn't have updated calculation at high pDIF situations.

If someone has Nightfyre's fixed version spreadsheet feel free to publish updated DPS comparison.

Also please note that WAR atm is one of the strongest DPS at capped pdif situations. Even if that makes BLU a bit more behind(as it should for a hybrid job) at capped pdif situations I'd say it's probably still highly competitive against other DPS jobs like DRG, NIN, MNK and possibly SAM and such.

In the case of WAR it's about Warcry and Blood Rage. Warcry is +700 TP Bonus and +11% Attack for 60s on the entire party. 700 TP Bonus is crazy powerful on any Weapon Skill that scales with fTP like Resolution / Cross Reaper / ect. The other ability is Blood Rage, +40% Critical Hit Rate for 60s on the entire party, which does similar things to any Critical hit WS. These abilities don't stack and overwrite each other so the WAR needs to choose the appropriate one for the group they are with. I've switched to WAR/NIN with my sword and spammed crazy nice Vorpals just to demonstrate this to people saying the exact same things you were.

A note on those spreedsheets, they should never be used to compare jobs. They are designed to allow you to compare gear X vs gear Y for the same job in a variety of situations, this game is far too dynamic for them to be accurate between different jobs. Something as simple as fight length will have dramatic effects on the result because they don't take time into consideration. Take the above WC / BR for example. Both those abilities are on a 5 min timer with a 60s duration meaning in a fight of infinite length (spreedsheets) they are up 1/5th of the time. Yet in the game nearly every fight is over with before WC/BR wears which makes it up 100% of the time, that alone dramatically shifts the relative power index of not only WAR but every other job in the party. Almace CDC is no longer BLU's best WS option then. But reverse the situation, take away the buffs and strip down the support and suddenly that fight is taking several minutes and that WAR is spending more time in -DT gear (another thing the spreedsheets fail to take into account), now the BLU has the advantage.

Which brings me to my last point, for the love of god stop giving everyone 3000TP free AM3 at the start, a lot of content doesn't allow you to do that. By the time the person has built up TP the fight is halfway over with and a couple seconds later it's finished. It heavily bias's the comparisons between builds.

[Shiyo]

BLU is supposed to be the "jack of all trades master of none", correct?

Then please explain why:

Blu is the BEST AOE job.

Blu is the BEST solo job.

Blu is a S tier(up there with the best dd jobs) at being a DD.

Should a jack of all trades, be the master of multiple things, and as good at other jobs at their own specialty?
No. That is the blue mage problem.

I mean Afania even put it pretty well earlier - in some games being the "best" at AOE is usually your own specialty and niche. Yet, blue mage gets this role uncontested basically, and it's not even considered a "Strength" for them by the developers or player base really. Being the best at AOE is generally one of the strongest things you can be in a MMO, because it lets you do so much. There's so much content that is really good for AOE burning even in this game, yet this strength seems to be neglected and not brought up often by people talking about blue mage balance, why?

Afania brings up that nerfing MG so that you don't automatically always bring a 2nd BLU if you already have one already for party set ups. While this is a pretty good idea, I still don't think it would be enough. It wouldn't give the player base a reason to not actually be on their BLU 99% of the time. There's simply no reason not to just come blue mage for most of your in game situations. Solo? BLU. AOE? BLU. Need a DD? I got BLU. The only roles a BLU doesn't completely dominate are healer/support/tank(and blu can tank really well,but not the best).

So if you're just running around doing random crap, soloing, farming merits(for whatever reason), farming gil, lowmanning, or need to come a DD for something, you can just sit on blu.

No other job is this versatile besides RDM, and it pays for that by being subpar in all it's roles except it's niche(debuffer) - why doesn't BLU?

[Dale]

The problem is that bluemage can do everything, and do some things better than everyone. That creates a situation where you have over half your player base on a single job at any given time, as the job is the optimal choice in so many situations.

It's bad for the health of the game.

It's fine to have imbalance, but it is NOT fine for a job that is capable of doing EVERYTHING to be the BEST at multiple things. That ruins the game.

I don't know what sever you are on - but on mine I do not see blue mages everywhere I go. So this idea that everyone is playing Blue Mage now is an exaggeration.

Besides, blue mages are not capable of being the best at everything anyway. It's a versatile job (it was designed to be) and can probably perform a lot of different roles in the right hands. But that would require them to gear and set spells separately. They can not be all things at once.

I really don't see a significant problem with Blue Mage.

[Dale]

It's a matter of scale. I'm not going to demand that every job be PRECISELY equal, that just leads to bland gameplay. But it definitely needs to be closer than it is today. Back at 75 cap, everyone knew SAM was the best melee, but you COULD still do merits and various endgame events as other melee. Compare that to nowadays, where playing a DD besides BLM or BLU is relegated strictly to LS members taking pity on you. The difference between jobs is so vast these days that for a lot of events people would rather have an EMPTY SLOT than take a lot of the jobs out there.

This isn't just about being "so worried that we forget to have fun." It's about being able to play with people on the job we choose. It's about knowing full well that we're dragging our group down. It's about knowing that this fight that's kicking our ass could be so easily resolved by simply stepping into line and picking the same job as everyone else, that our own stubbornness is making things drastically more difficult. That the promise of all these jobs to play is a lie, and that the list of feasible jobs for any content is so drastically smaller.

I find that this game is more balanced than it was in the past.

Back in the ancient days of 75 cap - a lot of jobs just sucked and were awful to play. That is not the case today.

If you want to feel like you are dragging your group down just because you are not playing the most efficient job possible for any given situation - then perhaps it's time you re-assessed. As a previous poster alluded, games are about having fun. This isn't a job, and your goal should not be to accomplish something as quickly or efficiently as possible. It should be to have as much fun as possible.

I am open to legitimate criticisms that have some effect on gameplay. But when it comes to this argument that my job sucks and this other job is OP simply because so and so job can do it faster - I don't find that persuasive. That would require an exact balance to combat that kind of criticism - and that would in effect ruin this game.

Also: it's a myth that everyone is playing either Blue Mage or Black Mage to do endgame events. Who ever told you that doesn't know what they are talking about.

[Dale]

If blu wasn't so powerful, why does nearly EVERYONE play it?
.

Nearly everyone doesn't play it.

If you are seeing more Blue Mages than usual it's probably just because they are particularly useful in this month's ambuscade. It's not because they are suddenly so OP.

[Zetaking]

blu is the best magical aoe job bst is safer and best Melee cleaver

sch pup bst and nin are better(in this case safer) solo jobs on mid content

Blu is S class in low buff low man zerg content B class otherwise

jack of all trades means they can do all that at once, which they cant, i think you mean rdm there(btw with sequence rdm is beast up to 135 content sadly the tier 4 is to much on acc)

losing the haste on MG hurts the war or run i normal bring more than me, i can make the difference up in DW(tho at least the war would still have the def boost to cover berserk)

[Afania]

A note on those spreedsheets, they should never be used to compare jobs.

I generally agree that the fight in FFXI these days are a lot more dynamic compare with ages ago where optimal buffs are stagnant and everyone just spam their best WS at 1000 TP. That being said, we're having a DPS balance discussion here, if we don't have a baseline when it comes to DPS balance then everything would just be hearsay.

I've seen all sorts of claims(not you, but from many other people) to support their anti BLU adjustment POV from "DRK outparse BLU" "DRG outparse BLU" "RUN outparse BLU" to even "RDM outparse BLU", then proceed with "if you can't outparse BLU you suck". None of claims from those people include any context including gear set/buffs/targets etc etc. So how are we going to have an objective discussion regarding BLU's DPS ability if everything is just internet rumor and hearsay?

I propose spreadsheet comparison because I think people claiming "BLU suck at DPS" is going too far. 95% of BLU we play with aren't even maxed, considering the job is slightly more expensive to max out compare with WAR and DRK, I don't think it's fair to compare a dedicated DRK player with full set of HQ+ AG rag v.s bandwagon BLU with 1 REMA, NQ adhemar and low end herc augment, then proceed to claim BLU's versatility is justified for it's DPS because that bandwagon BLU parse terribly.

And that's what a lot of people doing in this entire BLU DPS discussion. There are very little facts, 95% of posts are just subjective opinions.(I'm not saying Saevel is biased though, I do think your analysis of BLU is correct)

I'm fine with people claiming spreadsheet isn't accurate, but please present other numerical evidences to support BLU's DPS hierarchy. It is fine to claim BLU being "behind" DRK, DRG, SAM etc, but how much? There's a huge difference between 3% behind and 25% behind too. Without knowing exactly how behind BLU is this job balance discussion can't really continue. If BLU is only 5% behind SAM, DRK, DRG then it's versatility isn't justified, if it's 20% behind then at least it's more balanced. And I highly doubt BLU is THAT behind in terms of DPS at all.

tl;dr: In terms of DPS, I do think hybrid job like BLU needs to be behind jobs like SAM, DRK DRG. But how behind? 3% or 5% behind isn't enough to justify BLU's versatility. Currently we don't have any accurate tool to know the real DPS hierarchy outside of personal experience and parse data with close friends, that's why I propose spreadsheet comparison.

[Stamos]

Like most cases Afania, it is player by player basis. How well geared they are for each situation, and how much attention they are paying.

[Jakuk]

"RDM outparse BLU"

Have they? I've only seen RDM mentioned when I was replying, and someone said RDM is a beast upto 135 (which is true, and probably SE's justification for the lack of gear for RDM)

[Fae]

blu is the best magical aoe job bst is safer and best Melee cleaver

sch pup bst and nin are better(in this case safer) solo jobs on mid content

Blu is S class in low buff low man zerg content B class otherwise

jack of all trades means they can do all that at once, which they cant, i think you mean rdm there(btw with sequence rdm is beast up to 135 content sadly the tier 4 is to much on acc)

losing the haste on MG hurts the war or run i normal bring more than me, i can make the difference up in DW(tho at least the war would still have the def boost to cover berserk)

Ignoring the fact that you give no support for any of your claims so your post is nothing other than a statement of opinion, my prior posts show that this clearly isn't the case. Take NIN for example, it does less damage, it can not self heal, and it totally relies on a RDM and BRD trust to not die to even have good recasts. On every factor but miga, which it's recast will be too long to be that useful if those trusts die or are disabled, and considering occultation actually gets more shadows than utsusemi san even if it is 50% blink rate, and that unlike NIN BLU has a lot of magical defenses as well there is no point that NIN solo's better than BLU. PUP and BST are godawful slow clears on the same stuff BLU can do in a timely fashion as referenced by my prior posts. SCH can be a solo beast, but often relies on it's powerful regens and damage over times to get the job done which is also often very slow. On the other hand, you have some BLU who have without trusts solo'd AA GK in Escha Sky. No kiting needed.

BLU is a hybrid job and changing loadouts on BLU is something that doesn't require a trip to the mog house and unless going into cleaving mode is rarely necessary to change anything anyway, even when being a top DD and tanking something as dangerous as albumen. Haste and DW are not the same, for a multitude of reasons which was already addressed earlier in the thread, outside of worse TP gain it also has no effect on spell recasts. Bringing BLU because they can diffusion MG and thus less support is needed for a short fight is part of the reason it is bandwagoning and should be addressed, and bringing two BLU and no tank so you need less support for even long fights and no tank is another reason it should be addressed, it creates a situation where bringing anything other than BLU becomes non optimal for many setups. BLU can do top tier DPS while having all the other advantages it has including enfeebles, aoe cleaving, they can setup or make any skillchain, they can long stun, they have a ton of survival and they have a suite of buffs that eclipse what some more support oriented jobs can even offer. All of it is clearly too much power on one job and why people gravitate towards it and that it's been bandwagoning since before skirmish II.

BLU wasn't just popular in this month's ambuscade but pretty much every single one. What was the strategy when the giant mega boss was setting everyones mp to zero? Blu with magic barrier. What is the answer to a frog that one shots a party? Blu subduction and kite. What is the answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people? BLU. What was the answer when various damage types are needed? BLU is great at all damage types but ranged, but especially slashing and blunt. What was the answer to the antlion adds? BLU aoe. And oh look it can tank and solo it too, gee wonder why. What was the answer when you are limited to 6 but the acc requirements are super high? Well BLU of course with the most melee accuracy.

It's not just that BLU is even so useful in so many situations either, it's that it does it better and faster with more consistent results than other jobs.

[Urthdigger]

I find that this game is more balanced than it was in the past.

Back in the ancient days of 75 cap - a lot of jobs just sucked and were awful to play. That is not the case today.

If you want to feel like you are dragging your group down just because you are not playing the most efficient job possible for any given situation - then perhaps it's time you re-assessed. As a previous poster alluded, games are about having fun. This isn't a job, and your goal should not be to accomplish something as quickly or efficiently as possible. It should be to have as much fun as possible.

I am open to legitimate criticisms that have some effect on gameplay. But when it comes to this argument that my job sucks and this other job is OP simply because so and so job can do it faster - I don't find that persuasive. That would require an exact balance to combat that kind of criticism - and that would in effect ruin this game.

Also: it's a myth that everyone is playing either Blue Mage or Black Mage to do endgame events. Who ever told you that doesn't know what they are talking about.

The only jobs I recall really sucking back at the 75 cap were BST and PUP. Most of the jobs weren't optimal, sure, but they weren't useless either.

As far as dragging the group down goes, you seem to be missing the point. This isn't about min/maxing and squeezing every second out of the kill time as you possibly can. This is about differences drastic enough to easily mean the difference between success or failure. If you'll excuse the hyperbole, imagine if you decided to show up to an endgame event wearing nothing but level 1 gear. When people object, you state that it's what's fun for you, and they shouldn't have a problem with it. And that likewise, you have no reason to feel bad for your performance. Now, the difference may not be QUITE as drastic as that, but the feeling is the same.

[OmnysValefor]

Have they? I've only seen RDM mentioned when I was replying, and someone said RDM is a beast upto 135 (which is true, and probably SE's justification for the lack of gear for RDM)

Not that I saw/see. Someone said RDM is a better soloer than BLU (which, outside of a gravity-kite--and that's pretty laughable, I can't see). It does have phalanx, which is situationally better than Barrier Tusk, and Barspells. I guess Fastcast for the recast on /nin spells would be nice but I still don't see RDM being a better soloer.


Ignoring the fact that you give no support for any of your claims so your post is nothing other than a statement of opinion, my prior posts show that this clearly isn't the case.

Here and in other threads, you demand examples (which is fair) and then refuse to acknowledge when that person, or any person, provides examples.


BLU wasn't just popular in this month's ambuscade but pretty much every single one. What was the strategy when the giant mega boss was setting everyones mp to zero? Blu with magic barrier. What is the answer to a frog that one shots a party? Blu subduction and kite. What is the answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people? BLU. What was the answer when various damage types are needed? BLU is great at all damage types but ranged, but especially slashing and blunt. What was the answer to the antlion adds? BLU aoe. And oh look it can tank and solo it too, gee wonder why. What was the answer when you are limited to 6 but the acc requirements are super high? Well BLU of course with the most melee accuracy.

Most people's answer to the giant boss was to try to take it out in one skillchain.

Most people's answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people is nuking strategy. If you're going melee, NIN, or /NIN. A second geo for defensive buffs also worked against Mow, as did a yagrush whm who was good on erasing the defense-down that made Mow so awful. Every Taurus/Demon I did that month, we brought one super low and then killed the other.

The answer to Roc was certainly not BLU, it was THF actually (had like a 25% weakness to piercing) Any pair of thieves with rudra's could skip at least one wave of adds, if not two and, with perfect timing, skip all three.

Unfortunately, that month, I was helping returning friends through ambuscade and our setup was PLD/GEO/WHM/BLM (yeah :/)/thf/thf. Birds died quickly enough, cockatrice took a minute, and my geo took care of the penguins (roundly geared thiefs could do a lot with aeolian edge on birds too). The undergeared BLM "helped". I have and love Blue mage but as it plays poorly with Rudra's Storm (the PLD can Requiescat), didn't see value in bringing it.

For Antlion, I tanked the adds with PLD/WAR and they died to our ajas from SCH skillchain strategy.

You claim to have cleared Rei HELMs but you're focused on pug-obsessed BLUs BLU-obsessed PUGs. Ignore them. For the sake a job that can do pretty good most the time, they're foregoing quicker methods.

[Fae]

Most people's answer to the giant boss was to try to take it out in one skillchain.

Wrong. Magic barrier was not only the first shared strat it was the most used and was only used for quite a while.



Most people's answer to dangerous mobs that one shot people is nuking strategy. If you're going melee, NIN, or /NIN. A second geo for defensive buffs also worked against Mow, as did a yagrush whm who was good on erasing the defense-down that made Mow so awful. Every Taurus/Demon I did that month, we brought one super low and then killed the other.

Wrong, BLU DD was very common and again, the first shared win and often most used. I never once went a nuking setup the entire month.



The answer to Roc was certainly not BLU, it was THF actually (had like a 25% weakness to piercing) Any pair of thieves with rudra's could skip at least one wave of adds, if not two and, with perfect timing, skip all three.

Unfortunately, that month, I was helping returning friends through ambuscade and our setup was PLD/GEO/WHM/BLM (yeah :/)/thf/thf. Birds died quickly enough, cockatrice took a minute, and my geo took care of the penguins (roundly geared thiefs could do a lot with aeolian edge on birds too). The undergeared BLM "helped". I have and love Blue mage but as it plays poorly with Rudra's Storm (the PLD can Requiescat), didn't see value in bringing it.

For a limited portion of the population that was true, but BLU was still shouted and asked for if you didn't happen to have 4 DNC / THF to make that setup work because BLU can deal with all the adds: magical cleave the magic weak, club the roc, and slashing damage the colibri. While stacked piercing was very good, BLU was the best DD slot for all but the main NM and most people couldn't achieve the kill in less than 30 seconds strategy, so we have BLU being used for a fight designed for light armor piercing jobs.



For Antlion, I tanked the adds with PLD/WAR and they died to our ajas from SCH skillchain strategy.

Then you could've solo'd in on VD with BLU, and probably in less time.



You claim to have cleared Rei HELMs but you're focused on pug-obsessed BLUs BLU-obsessed PUGs. Ignore them. For the sake a job that can do pretty good most the time, they're foregoing quicker methods.
I've stated and gave example for all levels of play, in detail, you're just ignoring what you don't want to hear. For some ambus you can give counter examples but they are hardly in context and misleading as a result. 1/22 is 4.5% which is the fair market share of job distribution, the lowest BLU population is currently given as 13% but I've usually seen closer to 20% or more of people on BLU for these and other reasons. The more you deny it the more clear it is that BLU is too strong and overused due to it's strength especially since you purposefully leave out context because you know it defeats your argument in the first place.

[OmnysValefor]

Piercing was far and away the fastest kill on Roc for even moderately geared thieves. Finding such thieves wasn't hard. I know, I put one together that much for a bit of versatility (and then my friends came back and I lived on GEO the rest of the month).

Some groups were leveraging Angon and Tomahawk on RoC as well. Not any group I was in, because I didn't know any good warriors (because everything else at the time was nuke, nuke nuke.).

Edit: I went with a few strats on Antlion (melee killing adds, focusing the boss) but I don't see a BLU and trusts taking the boss down faster than a group of humans with a GEO. The gravity and knockaround (as well as a blind, I think?) were annoying for melee and the the SCH strat worked absurdly fast. Antlion is the only one I took an MB strategy to.

I never took nukers to taurus/demon, sorry if that was unclear (I do see how my phrasing was confusing.). I've heard it worked but I tested some GEO nukes against it, even bursted, and wasn't impressed.

I'm not denying it out of some bias to the job. I'm denying it because there are a lot of people coming into this thread saying things they can't back up (on both sides), using weak defenses (on both sides, things like "BLU can do everything at once"-it can't and "BLU makes Bard obselete"-- it doesn't VS "I had to learn spells!" and "My job requires one-two more gear sets than most melee") and a few people saying things of actual truth (on both sides. Afania has done pretty good).

I don't "leave out context" either. I name the fight I'm talking about and what I used. You don't frame things with context because your claim is that everyone is taking 3 or 4 BLUs to everything.

I talked about Gormberry earlier, a fight I was doing as I was typing, and explained exactly what I was doing, what I gave up, and why I made those choices.

[Fae]

I ran THF setups myself for it, but we still took BLU for 2 reasons, if someone wasn't geared enough or was late on the rudra coordination then you get adds. If adds spawn, BLU takes care of them quickly and for most hte player base the adds would and did spawn so BLU was very used for this reason. The other reason is BLU is one of if not the best cleaver in the game so getting your KI again was super fast.

Some people are taking 2 BLU DD to everything and in alliances 3-4 on hard content but I never said everyone. Leaving out the reasons for above for example is leaving out context. Most people were not able to kill the Roc in less than 30 seconds so adds became a problem -> if adds spawned then BLU can deal with all of them very quickly. This is also just a single example, and I've shown I think on every point where my statements come from with context and examples. To me this isn't even a debate, it's just obvious proof from multiple people, vs deniers using logical fallacies to deny harder. It's pretty clear where BLU power balance, and population as a result, stand. I'd be glad if the next patch just nerf's blu already so we can move on.

[dmuller30]

It's pretty clear where BLU power balance, and population as a result, stand. I'd be glad if the next patch just nerf's blu already so we can move on.

Or just bring the other jobs up the the BLU's level. I mean BLU's are strong but they aren't invincible and a lot of the stuff I go to in Escha fighting T3-Helms require me as other jobs that is not my well geared BLU. BLU seems to be OP in most things but a lot of the super crazy stuff BLU really isn't needed.

[Afania]

Or just bring the other jobs up the the BLU's level. I mean BLU's are strong but they aren't invincible and a lot of the stuff I go to in Escha fighting T3-Helms require me as other jobs that is not my well geared BLU. BLU seems to be OP in most things but a lot of the super crazy stuff BLU really isn't needed.


You are missing the point. Other jobs can already deal BLU level of DPS, they just can't do what BLU can do: Aoe stuff, have crazy high def, self cap haste, generate shadows(except NIN), defense down(except DRG), and the list goes on.

How are you going to "bring the other jobs up to the BLU's level" unless SE gives WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN access to blue magic?

[Urmom]

You are missing the point. Other jobs can already deal BLU level of DPS, they just can't do what BLU can do: Aoe stuff, have crazy high def, self cap haste, generate shadows(except NIN), defense down(except DRG), and the list goes on.

How are you going to "bring the other jobs up to the BLU's level" unless SE gives WAR, SAM, MNK, DRG, NIN access to blue magic?

I saw mnk/wars casting blu back during the salvage thing. Can confirm pretty OP

[saevel]

The answer to Roc was certainly not BLU, it was THF actually (had like a 25% weakness to piercing) Any pair of thieves with rudra's could skip at least one wave of adds, if not two and, with perfect timing, skip all three.

Actually it was having a solid Warrior along who knew what they are doing. Stardiver is obscene broken in a WAR's hands due to Warcry TP scaling along with piercing bonus. Combine that with Tomawks ability to nerf the Bird's -DT and you don't even bother with adds anymore, most of my fights the adds didn't have time to pop because of how fast we killed it. Fights lasted 30s tops. Angon is just -defense, it's a nice amount but nothing that alters the dynamic of the fight, Tomahawk on the other hand reduces any special DT by 30% (multiplied not subtracted). It's really potent when things have high DT's that make them nearly invincible.

[Olor]

Speaking about Roc, I found it easier to solo on my lesser geared thf than my better geared blu - even with the adds (which I definitely got) - I could definitely do it on blu but kill speed was better on thf.

BLU is strong but folks are engaged in hyperbole. With trusts the self buffs are nice, but not really necessary... mighty guard is great and all but it's not gamebreaking.... a true solo, sure BLU pulls ahead but other than for youtbubers --- who is doing solos without trusts these days?

Instead of calling for nerfs, folks should be calling for fixes to the jobs they like... at this stage of the game's life nerfs are just going to make the population of the game decline.

[OmnysValefor]

Actually it was having a solid Warrior along who knew what they are doing. Stardiver is obscene broken in a WAR's hands due to Warcry TP scaling along with piercing bonus. Combine that with Tomawks ability to nerf the Bird's -DT and you don't even bother with adds anymore, most of my fights the adds didn't have time to pop because of how fast we killed it. Fights lasted 30s tops. Angon is just -defense, it's a nice amount but nothing that alters the dynamic of the fight, Tomahawk on the other hand reduces any special DT by 30% (multiplied not subtracted). It's really potent when things have high DT's that make them nearly invincible.

Yeah, I covered that in my next post.


Some groups were leveraging Angon and Tomahawk on RoC as well. Not any group I was in, because I didn't know any good warriors (because everything else at the time was nuke, nuke nuke.).

Due to the nature of Sneak Attack and Trick Attack though, finding thieves is a lot easier, if you don't have access to even pretty-good warriors. Which I didn't, at the time.

And for some reason, half of Valefor loves playing thief. (Not saying they're always on it, but finding them isn't hard).

---

Unrelated: Did you see the patch notes? 2h'ers got buffed :). Monk still doesn't sound awesome, but they're trying.

[Afania]

Instead of calling for nerfs, folks should be calling for fixes to the jobs they like... at this stage of the game's life nerfs are just going to make the population of the game decline.

You can't prove that nerfing a job would make population of the game decline though. It's just your opinion.

Also exactly what kind of "fix" are you looking for? Real DD jobs like SAM, MNK, DRG, WAR, DRK are mostly the same as 3 years ago. You sound like SE did something that broke them but they didn't.

[Fae]

Speaking about Roc, I found it easier to solo on my lesser geared thf than my better geared blu - even with the adds (which I definitely got) - I could definitely do it on blu but kill speed was better on thf.

BLU is strong but folks are engaged in hyperbole. With trusts the self buffs are nice, but not really necessary... mighty guard is great and all but it's not gamebreaking.... a true solo, sure BLU pulls ahead but other than for youtbubers --- who is doing solos without trusts these days?

Using one fight to invalidate all the points made in the thread and ignoring the parts in that same fight BLU was very good at while also ignoring all the Ambuscades BLU dominated is hyperbole.

Also trusts was addressed as the first post in the thread. Having to not rely on a RDM trust and Ulmia to cap haste solo is one reason of many BLU is so strong solo but this also carries over to group play. If you don't need two trusts and every other DD does, you don't have to worry for those trusts dying, being disabled, and you get to use other trusts that can provide huge crit rate or attack boosts instead, or have the safety of more healer trusts or defensive trusts so trusts don't even the playing field what so ever, as was stated long, long, long ago in the thread, which I'm not sure if you're ignoring to try to further your argument or didn't read. Here is the direct quote: "This will also limit their solo potential some as they will be more limited in trusts as every other DD is." Later examples were also given. The reason to not call for buffs was also given, several times now, and I agree with Afania stating that it would lead to decline is just a matter of opinion and fear mongering in my opinion. It's a classic slippery slope argument so has no basis what so ever.

At least one thing can be sure, this thread has a ton of views and the people keeping it most alive are the very few against it, all of which who play BLU. So it's somewhat amusing to me that in that fashion they're actively working against themselves.

[Shiyo]

Instead of calling for nerfs, folks should be calling for fixes to the jobs they like... at this stage of the game's life nerfs are just going to make the population of the game decline.
I personally know people who would quit the game if blu wasn't nefed within a year so from now.
I also know people who would come back to the game if blu was nerfed.

[Shiyo]

Going to add to this since people think blu has "Trade offs" and can't "do everything at once".
Here's a video of a person being a healer, tank, DD, aoe sleeper, and self buffer(capping his own magic haste) ALL AT THE SAME TIME:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxg-rim38uk

No trade offs. He is doing nearly everything in the game at once.
Giving blue mage so many innate shadows(yes blink isn't as good as utsu but good enough) is disgusting, honestly.

[Belmonts]

Going to add to this since people think blu has "Trade offs" and can't "do everything at once".
Here's a video of a person being a healer, tank, DD, aoe sleeper, and self buffer ALL AT THE SAME TIME:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxg-rim38uk

No trade offs. He is doing nearly everything in the game at once.
Giving blue mage so many innate shadows(yes blink aren't as good as utsu but good enough) is disgusting, honestly.

I agree with you on that video.

Not to mention that player is using 3rd party tools that allows him to excel on the change of gear since it can use their famous "pre", "mid" and "post"-cast tools where they inject abnormal packets to the client-server communication... '/Gearset' cannot be as efficient since SE a lot of times said that they "cannot" adjust communication with the server that way.

And with the addition that he can know when to use his JA's and other spells, for he has bars on the screen telling that kind of information...

┐(-｡ｰ; )┌ﾔﾚﾔﾚ

[Diavolo]

Going to add to this since people think blu has "Trade offs" and can't "do everything at once".
Here's a video of a person being a healer, tank, DD, aoe sleeper, and self buffer(capping his own magic haste) ALL AT THE SAME TIME:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxg-rim38uk

No trade offs. He is doing nearly everything in the game at once.
Giving blue mage so many innate shadows(yes blink isn't as good as utsu but good enough) is disgusting, honestly.

SCH soloing Tenzen VD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx9S39KpOSA). Do we now argue that SCH needs to be nerfed because one of the better players was able to solo that fight, too?

[Belmonts]

SCH soloing Tenzen VD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx9S39KpOSA). Do we now argue that SCH needs to be nerfed because one of the better players was able to solo that fight, too?

More like a side note of: "Do everyone doing those solo fights must rely on third party tools to win?" Because it seems like the tendency now with all these videos.

At least the guy on the video was more subtle, but using the menu/typing the commands to choose spells and JA's and then the char "magically" was swapping gear? Nice try from him. :3

Gotta admit that he had to do way more things than the BLU video, tho.

[Domille]

SCH soloing Tenzen VD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx9S39KpOSA). Do we now argue that SCH needs to be nerfed because one of the better players was able to solo that fight, too?

Yeah, SCH is broken too. Immanence is completely broken.

[Mithlas]

Lets nerf RDM too while we're at it:

Dynakros Garuda VD Solo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIVJGKZgCvY)
Hyugaji Fenrir VD Solo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AntUk8YfvEQ)

The fact of the matter is:
These players are geared up with the best gear they can possibly manage. They know the ins and outs of their jobs, and how to perform them well.
These are challenges they've taken on themselves. Just because it's possible does not mean it is the norm.

The other unfortunate fact is that these are hybrid jobs - they have a variety of spells and abilities on hand to be able to do multiple things. Instead of throwing around the nerfhammer, why not buff the alternate jobs that are supposed to excel in their singular roles? 8D

[Domille]

Red Mage already got nerfed by adding GEO SCH BLU and to a lesser extent DNC.

Every new job hurt RDM more and more.

[Shiyo]

Glad to know people are bringing up "look these jobs can solo too!" when I didn't mention once, NOT A SINGLE TIME, that it was overpowered that the bluemage solod these fights. What is overpowered is that the bluemage is doing EVERY ROLE IN THE GAME AT ONCE.

NO TRADE OFFS. DOING EVERYTHING AT ONCE. That was my entire point.

BTW, sch can do cheesey kiting and solo things, that's great, it's not doing 18 things at once, it's simply being a mage and kiting. It's the best at it's role unique role. That's balance.

I knew the bluemages would come in "b-b-ut look! This job can solo too! blu isnt op! sch is op! look guys! sch is op!! op op op!". Stop trying to hide how broken your job is by pointing at other jobs, it doesn't work.

Tell me next time another job can solo cap it's own magic haste, have 10+ shadows, have +75% defense + 15% DR from barrier tusk(that btw, BYPASSES the 50% DT cap), have cure4, AOE sleep and can do as much damage as a pure DD all at the same time without even subbing anything.


"But it has to make trade offs!" Really? Then explain that video. He's doing every role AT THE SAME TIME.

"But it's hybrid! jack of all trades!" Then why is it the best at multiple roles at once? A jack of all trades is RDM, it's subpar at everything and not the best at anything. BLU is jack of all trades, MASTER OF SOME. Jack of all trades means you're the master of NONE.

[Stamos]

Did you not like the other community so you post here now for this stuff?

The whole no trade off thing makes no sense. He basically has all utility spells on. Just dual wield, acc bonus, conserve mp, crit attack, and stp1 for traits. Not to mention, it literally requires Tizona for him to be even able to solo without trusts or any support.

Does RDM require any RMEA weapon to solo without trusts? No. Or any of the top tier solo jobs? No.


BLU doesn't break the game, doesn't circumvent any mechanics of the game like BST did prior being able to kill every monster in the game without any danger of losing. Lots of well geared jobs can out DPS BLU by a lot, what BLU has going for it when it comes to the masses is a high floor. You just happen to see a lot of extremely well geared BLUs around because of their utility and being a blank slate of a job.

[Jin_Uzuki]

BTW, sch can do cheesey kiting and solo things, that's great, it's not doing 18 things at once, it's simply being a mage and kiting. It's the best at it's role unique role. That's balance.


UUUH? I'm sorry what? "It's simply being a mage?

SCH LITERALLY took over SC stuff. And not only it took over it, it completely changed it so that you can SC safely away from the mob, basically with any setup and you no longer even need melee dd for it. Melee DD, the jobs literally made for the SC mechanic.

Now THAT's game breaking!

[Shiyo]

UUUH? I'm sorry what? "It's simply being a mage?

SCH LITERALLY took over SC stuff. And not only it took over it, it completely changed it so that you can SC safely away from the mob, basically with any setup and you no longer even need melee dd for it. Melee DD, the jobs literally made for the SC mechanic.

Now THAT's game breaking!

I don't think it's game breaking because it's still bad and inefficient to not use melee's in 95% of the games content, but it enables cheesey all mage strategies so I'd be ok with removing it entirely.

[OmnysValefor]

Before SCH, here were the considerations for mb'ing any boss:

We need mages with enough magic accuracy and melee with enough accuracy. We need a healer who can watch over the melee. Further, and the most important part, we're taking up party spaces with people who can't drop 40k and even 70k and 99k bombs on the boss. They'll be in danger, they'll die sometimes.

They need support, they're a distraction.

SCH is as powerful as any nuker besides BLM, has longer throughput than any nuker (SCH has sublimation / refresh, Myrkr). They're level of nuking rises some since they also bring Storms II.

Many many things can be killed in 4 SCs. Many things can be killed in 2. When you do get high enough that it's time to settle in for a fight you have three options.

1.) Burn out strats >> Tabula Rasa (infinite strats for duration) >> Burn out strats again. Most content in the game is dead before TR expires.
2.) Bring two or more scholars, capable of contributing to nuking if it's beneficial to the group. The off-scholar can also may drop some helixes, reapply storms.
3.) Working with Death, stratagems may not be consumed so fast. With use of Random Deal, and Revitalizers, this may be a non-issue.

SCH 550 along with mega-love to MBs caused SCH to alter strategies for any fight that wasn't heavily magic resistant and there's some fights that people brute-force MB because they'd rather deal with that than the mechanics of the fight.

Not to mention the incomparably small tp feed of SCH SCs vs Melee SCs. In many cases, you're trading two melee (waiting on tank tp sucks) for one scholar and one blm, or two scholars. No longer are the resources (GEO, COR) or attention (BRD) divided between groups.

Immanence + 550 literally redefined the game.

Edit: It is the reason you don't see too many melee on Valefor. You can say want you want about BLU but other melee bring interesting things that are strategically useful. Immanence rendered them, for a time, not useful (Angon, Tomahawk, Feint, high-burst damage like souleater).

So we've been getting Ambuscade that has pretty unwelcoming to mages most months and Ambuscade, more than any other reason, is why you see what melee you do.

Even with the changes SE has made, mage mode is still preferential a lot of times and some (the highest tier stuff) still requires every bit of accuracy multiple buffers can give your melee.