Job points has ruined one of the foundations of this game

[Castanica]

Job points are a good idea in principle but in reality they have pretty much killed the "you can use any job on your char" idea. Now you have a main job and that's it.

Job points are such an extreme grind and are so important now to playing this game that you can only really use 1-2 jobs anymore. The rest are scrub jobs.

I've been back on ffxi for maybe 6-7 months and I have around 400 job points on my main job, my other jobs have barely any. I find myself only wanting to use my main for everything now because a) I want to get any possible job points on that b) they make so much difference that I feel gimped on any other job c) the prospect of taking on the massive job point grind on a new job is insanely NOPE.

The lower end of the job point acquisition curve really needs to be lifted or unlocking a set amount of job points on your main should unlock them on all jobs (say 100 job points on one job, unlocks said amount of all 99 jobs), the amount of soul crushing grinding needed to make a job serviceable should not be as much as it is.

Anyone that thinks FFXI is easy mode now isn't looking at the real picture, on most mmorpg games you get your gear and you're the best you can be. On FFXI you can have all the best gear and still be garbage, until you have grinded out a mass of job points.

FFXI is no different now at cap than it was back in the day, they just swapped the massive long winded grinding of fighting low drop rates with getting mass amounts of job points.

[Elexia]

Job Points are nothing but an extension to Merits. The big problem is, XI wasn't able to expand in order to properly support it and if you missed the initial "leveling" rush, it's pretty brutal to catch up, especially on multiple jobs. XI is only realistically "easy mode" in the fact it no longer takes months-year+ to hit 75 on your initial and secondary job like it did back in 2002 and 2003 and of course moving to a more "vertical" progression made older content extremely easy.

Job points were done in a way to give us additional abilities/magic/stats beyond the clients hardcoded setup more or less. So it's not a huge problem if you played consistently even when they introduced it, it's just hard if you join the game now or returned recently and had barely any JP to your name because the best way to get JP, requires already being fairly invested.

[Stompa]

The original game was totally unforgiving, your base character was feeble, and your event could fail because you were 10mp short of a final cure. An extra Merit would have saved your event. That doesn't really happen anymore, thanks to ilvl gear.

I have Jobmaster WAR, and around 200~ jobpoints on most of my other jobs. But I play jobs that have like 50~ jobpoints too, in events, and it doesn't make a huge difference really. My Jobmaster WAR still misses mobs a lot, still dies. Having a lot of Jobpoints is not as important as having good gear, good strategy, and being able to play your job effectively on the player-input side.

So again, I think Merit Points in the old game, were a huge grind, and they were often critically important to the outcome of battles. The game was totally unforgiving back then, and you needed every little bit of extra power you could get, and Merits was the way to get this. Today, gear will give you a serviceable and survivable head-start, and you can get Jobpoints afterwards, to increase power and because it is fun to customise your character.
:cool:

[Castanica]

A large amount of merits were character wide, job points are 100% job based.

One of my suggestions was to unlock 100 JP on all jobs once you unlock that amount on one. 100 isn't ground breaking but it's a start.

[Olor]

I agree, even with all the capacity boosts, Job Points are still a ridiculous grind. At the very least they should massively boost the number of CP you get for doing various contents. Like 15K CP for every 119+ unity NM you defeat for example, 30K for every completed alluvion skirmish, 5K JP for every rieve you defeat, 15K CP for a wildskeeper reive 20K CP for doing those stupid dragons in escha etc - because as of now the most efficient way of getting JP solo is the most boring thing imaginable, which is grinding easy mobs... and yeah parties are better but only few jobs wanted and they want you to have amazing end game gear for them.... it's a really bad set up where the people who need JP the least have the most ability to get them

[Spectreman]

This has happened since the introduction of REM weapons actually. How many jobs were considered useless unless you had one of those? This still happens today. The Job Point system is just another extension of the epeen/elitist requirements for endgame that are not really required at all, but due to the mindset created in the elitist community of this game, it became another must-have feature.

[Stompa]

So I think Jobpoints are awesome, but they are not essential. Player game-skills are still the most important thing, reflexes and knowledge etc. And in-game the actual gear is what matters, for the most part. If the player has a lot of Jobpoints, this will make the battle faster and more efficient, it is unlikely to determine the outcome of the battle in terms of fail/success. Jobpoints are nice to have, but they are not going to swing the event.

And again this is totally different to Merit Points in the old game. If a player told me they had zero Merits it would make me actually panic if we were going to be fighting a hard battle. So again, it is the difference between essential Merits in the old game, and desirable Jobpoints in the new game. I think the system today is fun, because it allows you to boost your Character's power and make battles faster and more efficient, but at the same time you are not really going to cause a wipe by having low Jobpoints, you're just going to be slightly slower and less flamboyant in your play-style. It is a good balance today, really. IMHO.
:)

[detlef]

Many players have the opposite issue in where you cap out your raid job. As an example, I have a character that plays GEO/SCH and both jobs are 2100/2100 and 500/500.

[Castanica]

I think the crux of this is difference between the old game, with the old grind, and the new game with the new grind.

In the old game, having the capped-skills and a lot of Merit Points from grind was "essential." If somebody in your event told you that they didn't have capped skills, and they had zero merits, you got that sinking feeling, and you knew this was going to be a critical flaw in the event.

Today, your skills being capped is just taken for granted, with sparks books and other skill-up bonuses, and having a lot of Jobpoints is "desirable" rather than "essential." If somebody in my event says they have zero Jobpoints, I will simply shrug, because it doesn't matter. I will /check their gear, it is all 119, it has a lot of accuracy+ etc. and then I know we will be OK.

So I think Jobpoints are awesome, but they are not essential. Player game-skills are still the most important thing, reflexes and knowledge etc. And in-game the actual gear is what matters, for the most part. If the player has a lot of Jobpoints, this will make the battle faster and more efficient, it is unlikely to determine the outcome of the battle in terms of fail/success. Jobpoints are nice to have, but they are not going to swing the event.

And again this is totally different to Merit Points in the old game. If a player told me they had zero Merits it would make me actually panic if we were going to be fighting a hard battle. So again, it is the difference between essential Merits in the old game, and desirable Jobpoints in the new game. I think the system today is fun, because it allows you to boost your Character's power and make battles faster and more efficient, but at the same time you are not really going to cause a wipe by having low Jobpoints, you're just going to be slightly slower and less flamboyant in your play-style. It is a good balance today, really. IMHO.
:)

Back in the day I was asked to level sam for nidhogg claims, I capped the must have required merits I needed for my 75 sam in 4-5 hours in a pickup group by using a job I liked to play (white mage). Not only did merits carry over to all jobs in many areas (str/dex/hp/emnity) but I could get them on any job I wanted to use too, the freedom!

To use a job for serious content now you're expected to have many hundreds, if not 1k+ job points and you have to learn them on that job. The game is so incredibly grindy and restrictive now, more than it ever was before. Taking a job to 99 now is about a million times more grindy than it was back when the game came out even (because it's not 99, it's 99 plus 1k jp).

Job points are incredibly boring to get (to the point I see lots of people botting them in Escha, and I can't blame them), merits were nowhere near as bad and a lot easier to get too. I go out during gain xp and in 2-3 hours I'll be lucky to get 20 job points towards the 2.3k? total. It's ridiculous.

Totally ruined the job system, as I said before I rarely want to use any job other than the one I have most jp on because I'm trying to get as many JP as I can on that one and other jobs are now far weaker and less desirable to others. You will never win because even when you finally cap out and think you can now use other jobs since you don't need them on this one anymore, you are so much stronger on this main one that it disgusts you to use the uncapped.

[Elexia]

that are not really required at all

..Have...you actually seen any of them outside of THF? lol

[Rydal]

Job points, like the great Stompa already said, are by no means necessary. People make them necessary (BST, BLU, BLM, SCH gifts are all very good) but they aren't the end-all. In fact, with the exception of BLU, most jobs can compensate the lack of gifts with gear, granted with lower damage output and missing some spells but the job can still be very good in whatever event.

JP gets easier to get as you go along. Just do 10 a day or so and soon you'll see that you'll be getting 15 in that same amount of time. Soon it'll turn into 20 and 30 a day in the same amount of time. That's just solo in Escha or Reisenjima. In a party, you can clear 50-100+ JP in an hour depending on the party and how much JP you start with. Post 1200, you can easily get 200+ JP in an hour, going from 1200 to 2100 in one day.

Edit: Forgot to mention: having JP and gifts across jobs makes the whole system moot. The only gifts that you could argue could be cross-job are CP bonus and SU1 and 2 gifts, since those affect your character.

[Castanica]

This has happened since the introduction of REM weapons actually. How many jobs were considered useless unless you had one of those? This still happens today. The Job Point system is just another extension of the epeen/elitist requirements for endgame that are not really required at all, but due to the mindset created in the elitist community of this game, it became another must-have feature.

I had a relic back when they were obtained with large alliances farming twice a week for just you, a relic was a tiny improvement over normal weapons.

Job point gifts are a whole other level, they are required as you do harder stuff and incredibly OP on everything.

[Rooj]

Wait, did someone really call JP an "extreme" grind? lol............

[Castanica]

Wait, did someone really call JP an "extreme" grind? lol............

I bet live to win music starts erytime you login doesn't it?

[Rooj]

Not really seeing ~100 JP an hour for ~21 hours an "extreme" grind.

[Castanica]

Not really seeing ~100 JP an hour for ~21 hours an "extreme" grind.


http://img.ifcdn.com/images/cb97ed9f237c7709dbbb39486de40db96cacdccba711dd169a4e314b40415a78_1.jpg

Giving you some generous benefit of the doubt and assuming you're trolling.

[Eaglestrike]

Haha, this thread. When JP first came out there was basically no good camp. We would fight T-VT bats on map 2, getting like 5 JP an hour or something absurdly low, and did that all the way through to 550 or 1200, I forget which cap did. Then on my THF I did the whole 1200 to 2100 JP just farming other stuff. I'd go clear RoE's in reisenjima, farm torques in Escha-Ru'aun, or farm merits for merit fights, while burning my Trizek ring (use it, come back 2 hours later and get two uses in one go) and that's how my THF capped JP. I think I got COR and RUN capped in two Apex parties each (from 1200, all done farming in Woh/Sih Gates map 2 originally). I have LS mates that claim to be doing 400~ JP an hour.

JP are not "essential" to do other content. And if it's a slow grind to you, you have lots of other things you can be doing so as to not grind JP as your only option. You can go work on vorseals, on ultimate weapons, on some gear, etc. Don't focus on only one thing at a time and it'll all be a lot easier to handle. The only time you "need" JP's are progression content, which is usually only a few fights at any period of time. But even then it's not always needed, I made a static recently and I'm the only person with Master, three of the people are brand new(characters made within the last month or two), and we clear Ru'aun t3's, Reisenjima t2's, etc. even still.

One of the foundations of this game is grind, always has been. JP's are not even close to the worst grind in the game, and are something you can get in a variety of places, a variety of ways, and are faster now than the first year or so they had been out. So no, JP's are NOT ruining any foundation of this game. They're an example of it.

[Castanica]

Haha, this thread. When JP first came out there was basically no good camp. We would fight T-VT bats on map 2, getting like 5 JP an hour or something absurdly low, and did that all the way through to 550 or 1200, I forget which cap did. Then on my THF I did the whole 1200 to 2100 JP just farming other stuff. I'd go clear RoE's in reisenjima, farm torques in Escha-Ru'aun, or farm merits for merit fights, while burning my Trizek ring (use it, come back 2 hours later and get two uses in one go) and that's how my THF capped JP. I think I got COR and RUN capped in two Apex parties each (from 1200, all done farming in Woh/Sih Gates map 2 originally). I have LS mates that claim to be doing 400~ JP an hour.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

[Elexia]

Wait, did someone really call JP an "extreme" grind? lol............

They are. If you quit just before Seekers got off the ground and you rejoined recently, it's one of the more intense grinds you can do currently. No one will carry you in CP parties unless you pay, because there's a HIGH CHANCE you will not even blow wind on an Apex monster, let alone barely dent the "starter" CP mobs thus making the grind longer and harder because you have to settle for the least efficient method until you can actually do the efficient one.

So..tell me, how isn't it a grind if you have to start from ground 0 in order to even reliably get JP?


JP are not "essential" to do other content.

Maybe it's just me..but I'm noticing it's mainly people on THFs saying this.

[Rydal]

The first 200ish points are the hardest grind. After that, you should have enough CP bonus gifts to start seeing a big pick up in points. The first 200ish points can be solo'd without fighting very powerful monsters. Marjami Ravine, non-Apex mobs in the Gates zones, Escha zones, and Reisenjima all have soloable CP monsters that are not even difficult. If you can't hit the mobs, it's your gear that's an issue, not your JP. You can plow through the first 300 JP solo in a few weeks; sooner if you have the following:

-CP Bonus from Records of Eminence by completing all the story missions (up to +90%)
-CP Bonus from completing all the Rhapsody KIs in Rhapsodies of Vana'diel Ch 3 (up to +90%)
-CP Bonus from Records of Eminence by completing all the Reive Content quests (up to +56%)
-CP Bonus from Capacity, Trizek, or Facility ring (+50%, +150%, or +150%)
-CP Bonus from craftable capes or Incursion capes (craftable NQ +25%, craftable HQ +30%, Incursion +1-50%)
-CP Bonus from Kupofried (+10%)
-CP Bonus from Corsair's Roll (+8-24%)
-CP Bonus from Monster Rearing Cheer (+1-9%)
-CP Bonus from Unity rank (+1-20% I believe)

All of these bonuses stack per bullet. These alone make CP extremely easy to get solo, especially during a CP campaign. They are not an extreme grind. If you're getting very low CP, you need to clear more content before starting the grind.

If it takes you more than an hour to get 10-15 JP even zero JP, you need to focus on the list I provided before you start to complain about the grind.

[Eaglestrike]

They are. If you quit just before Seekers got off the ground and you rejoined recently, it's one of the more intense grinds you can do currently. No one will carry you in CP parties unless you pay, because there's a HIGH CHANCE you will not even blow wind on an Apex monster, let alone barely dent the "starter" CP mobs thus making the grind longer and harder because you have to settle for the least efficient method until you can actually do the efficient one.

So..tell me, how isn't it a grind if you have to start from ground 0 in order to even reliably get JP?

Maybe it's just me..but I'm noticing it's mainly people on THFs saying this.

Do you know how much accuracy is given with gifts? For THF's it's 36, THF has average accuracy, so unless the job has native accuracy bonus traits, it's the same or lower for the rest of the jobs. 36 accuracy is very rarely the difference between a total whiff fest and CP-viable accuracy. If it is there's plenty of gear to acquire to make up for that.

We don't live in a world where you must be 2100 to do any content. 2100 wasn't even a thing until the very end of SoA, and I recall doing SR with 550 as the cap, which is after you complete Adoulin and one of the final events in SoA. Ambuscade and some Escha gear also blows away the delve gear you acquired to do at that time. So you are more capable of reaching necessary levels than when Apex mobs first came out.

And there's plenty more to do. Can't reliably hit Apex mobs? Go farm some escha gear. Can't beat certain Escha mobs? Go farm vorseals. Get really desperate? Buy gear from a merc.

After doing a little Escha farming, and maybe some UNM farming, you'll even get a few JP's to speed up the process and start unlocking some of the benefits.

You're allowed to PROGRESS through the game, you don't need to do only one thing at a time.

[Castanica]

There is a reason the vast majority of people who come back to this game are gone in a month or two.

[Eaglestrike]

There is a reason the vast majority of people who come back to this game are gone in a month or two.

Because the game is essentially in dead mode and there's almost no new content to look forward to aside from progressing through content that's already getting old to the current crop of players?

Not seeing how that's a JP issue.

I earned my JP and gear over the course of YEARS. You're demanding it happens in a couple hours.

[Castanica]

Because the game is essentially in dead mode and there's almost no new content to look forward to aside from progressing through content that's already getting old to the current crop of players?

Not seeing how that's a JP issue.

I earned my JP and gear over the course of YEARS. You're demanding it happens in a couple hours.

No it's because the grinds are monstrous and nobody will help with anything unless there is money handed over, you don't know how awful this game is right now because you did it back when everyone was on the same footing.

Asura is the biggest server, new people join it every single day. You know how many people are on the server today compared to when I came back 7-8 months ago? Pretty much the same amount, the quitting rate is extremely high. the grind scale in this game is 1,2,2,2, 1000, 1000, 1000, quit.

[Eaglestrike]

No it's because the grinds are monstrous and nobody will help with anything unless there is money handed over, you don't know how awful this game is right now this because you did it back when everyone was on the same footing.

This game is at the easiest it has ever been to "get back into" aside from maybe the launch of SoA. Rhapsodies made so much grinding a ton easier, alluvion skirmish gear can be solo'd to get some of the BiS end of SoA gear, and you can use that to grind out until you can clear Escha.

Fact of the matter is if you can't kill things it's not because of the JP grind, it's because you're unwilling to take the steps to better your gear over the correct process.


Asura is the biggest server, new people join it every single day. You know how many people are on the server today compared to when I came back 7-8 months ago? Pretty much the same amount, the quitting rate is extremely high. the grind in this game is 1,2,2,2, 1000, 1000, 1000, quit.

Why do you assume everyone quitting is new? Some of the biggest players have quit (Cbbs for example) as well, since you can actually "beat" the game since we know it's all basically over.

[Castanica]

This game is at the easiest it has ever been to "get back into" aside from maybe the launch of SoA. Rhapsodies made so much grinding a ton easier, alluvion skirmish gear can be solo'd to get some of the BiS end of SoA gear, and you can use that to grind out until you can clear Escha.

Fact of the matter is if you can't kill things it's not because of the JP grind, it's because you're unwilling to take the steps to better your gear over the correct process.

This whole thread is going off from the original point I was making, however the JP grind is nowhere near easy at all. The vast majority of people don't even have more than couple of hundred JP. I've been back for about a year and I have under a few hundred, and I grind for hours during gain xp to come away with 20 or so JP.

The prospect of getting JP on another job is hilariously off the wall crazy, getting 1k+ on one job is bad enough.

You know as well as I do that the quitting rate is very high, it's not because there is no new content because the vast majority of them never get to do the content the game already has.

[Rydal]

Just ignore posts that are educating you and remain ignorant. You'll continue collecting a few hundred CP and remain frustrated and quit in a few months. I on the other hand will be mastering 2 more jobs in the next CP campaign on a character that started from scratch a year ago with no help. If you're complaining that JP is a terrible grind, then you need to start playing another game or give up on JP altogether. Maybe a year ago I would have agreed with you, but today, there is no excuse to not being able to solo your way to 200+ JP if you spend time on it. I guess you're expecting to see those purple letters flash every time you kill a mob in Ceizak Battlegrounds.

[Eaglestrike]

This whole thread is going off from the original point I was making, however the JP grind is nowhere near easy at all. The vast majority of people don't even have more than couple of hundred JP. I've been back for about a year and I have under a few hundred, and I grind for hours during gain xp to come away with 20 or so JP.

The prospect of getting JP on another job is hilariously off the wall crazy, getting 1k+ on one job is bad enough.

You know as well as I do that the quitting rate is very high, it's not because there is no new content because the vast majority of them never get to do the content the game already has.

Have you gone over the posts explaining all the CP bonuses? Finished Rhapsodies? Done reives? Done story missions and completed the RoE's? I legit grinded by THF to master over a month or so just killing 30-40 mosquitoes at a time using two trizek charges a couple times a day. That was skipping Apex parties entirely.

[Olor]

Not really seeing ~100 JP an hour for ~21 hours an "extreme" grind.

Most players are not getting that, most jobs are not welcome in content that gives anything close to that, ever


Have you gone over the posts explaining all the CP bonuses? Finished Rhapsodies? Done reives? Done story missions and completed the RoE's? I legit grinded by THF to master over a month or so just killing 30-40 mosquitoes at a time using two trizek charges a couple times a day. That was skipping Apex parties entirely.

Again, all of the things to even get CP bonuses are a huge grind. Making JP such a necessary thing for content is basically telling all new/returning players:

"Please solo grind for 1000 hours before considering participating in group content."

[OmnysValefor]

I've known a few people who came back just to say goodbye to the story.

If you've been gone 5 years from any MMO, you should expect to be behind. People gone 5 years were in abyssea, they know what's up. People gone 3 years saw the release of ilvl, they know XI changed.

Much as I dislike the spam-nature of the fights, Ambuscade gear is a stepping stone and a great one. Since the "golden age", SE has gotten much better at "stepping-stone" gear. The only trouble with Ambuscade is if you miss the month your gear came out, you're seemingly out of luck. The grind for last month's gear is much longer and if you're a newbie, that really really sucks. If you're more than a month late, you're just... out of luck. I wish SE would change it.

Cruor gear (Teal, Perle, Aurore), Bayld gear, Skirmish II (the tent one), Bayld +1 gear, Reforged JSE, JSE weapons, Alluvion Skirmish, Ambuscade Gear. I deliberately left sparks gear off the list because I think it was designed to be unimpressive gear. Also can't forget abjuration and adoulin campaigns.

[Rydal]

Most players are not getting that, most jobs are not welcome in content that gives anything close to that, ever

That's not true. Apex parties can be done in a mage or melee only set up. As long as your job can either successfully contribute in a SC and/or MB and/or support this set up, then it can be in the party. That's literally every job.

SC: any melee job or SCH
MB: BLM RDM SCH GEO SMN
Support: tanks (PLD RUN PUP), buffers (GEO, COR, BRD, RDM), other support (RDM, GEO, SCH, SMN, PUP)

Make your own party. Test the set up. If full melee, you should probably bring jobs that SC light or darkness together easily. Make sure you can hit


Again, all of the things to even get CP bonuses are a huge grind. Making JP such a necessary thing for content is basically telling all new/returning players:

"Please solo grind for 1000 hours before considering participating in group content."

Again not true. How is completing 2 Lair reives and/or Colonization reives per zone a huge grind? How is completing a Wildskeeper Reive once a huge grind? How is reachign rank 10 in a nation or completing a storyline a huge grind? How is changing your unity a huge grind? Summoning a trust? Having a COR in your party or subbing COR? Raising a monster in your Mog Garden? Buying a cape in the AH? I didn't even remember the Moghancement: Bounty CP Bonus. That's just hanging up a clock in your Mog House! A clock SE gave to us for free, and in unlimited quantities just a few months ago! You should be doing all this stuff anyway. If you can't solo this stuff, you shouldn't be concerned with JP.

[Rooj]

They are. If you quit just before Seekers got off the ground and you rejoined recently, it's one of the more intense grinds you can do currently. No one will carry you in CP parties unless you pay, because there's a HIGH CHANCE you will not even blow wind on an Apex monster, let alone barely dent the "starter" CP mobs thus making the grind longer and harder because you have to settle for the least efficient method until you can actually do the efficient one.

So..tell me, how isn't it a grind if you have to start from ground 0 in order to even reliably get JP?

I JUST did this EXACT thing as what many people around here call THE WORST JOB IN THE GAME, so if I can do it, PLEASE tell me what YOUR excuse is?

You shouldn't be coming back to the game and jumping straight into Apex. It is something that needs to be built up to. Apex mobs have around the same evasion as a T2 Escha - Ruaun NM. Instead of coming here and complaining about game content that is functioning exceptionally and perfectly, people should instead ask for advice on how to maximize their CP gain, and how to gear and what to expect on the Job they are bringing to the party. The moment you ask this, myself and many others will likely respond with plethoras of information to help you.

[Rooj]

Most players are not getting that, most jobs are not welcome in content that gives anything close to that, ever

You are so terribly wrong about this. I have seen 100% of the jobs in this game perform their functions just fine in Apex parties. IF you need help understanding how to play in an Apex party, please just ask.

[Castanica]

There are 979 people online right now on Asura.

Lets say 300 of them want Job points right now, please tell us all how 300 people can all get 50 or 100 jp per hour (and not only during double cp).

List camp locations, how many parties can be at those locations at once and job setup. Prove us wrong with facts and we can go test it.

The only reason you can get 50-100 JP per hour is because you have the best apex camps to yourselves. I have most of the KI mentioned and I farm CP in reisen, it's still around 15-20jp per hour. That's an unholy and boring as sin grind that even the most grind happy no-lifer can't stand past a certain point.

The person above stated they got thief to master in a month, so I assume they have all of their 99 jobs at master right? No? I wonder why?! because it's one of the most boring grinds on earth, in a game supposed to be played for fun.

[Olor]

Thanks Castanica, exactly.

So the people with the best gear, all mission content completed, on desired jobs can get job points fast-ish... doesn't mean it isn't a grind.

Also LOL at anyone who says doing missions isn't a grind. O. M. G.

Tried working on seekers this weekend had to spend 4 freaking hours trying to harvest/turn in a KI in yorcia weild... I almost rage quit the game entirely. Missions take FOREVER. So yes, they are a grind.

[Eaglestrike]

Saying it's a grind doesn't in any way prove the original claim made with this thread, though. Back in the day, I made a Mandau. The ultimate dagger of the game. It took me 1.5 years, living in my mother's basement, buying absolutely nothing else for my character, to acquire that thing. That's a grind. And it's been a foundation of this game from NA release, effectively.

[Zeldar]

Grind is a foundation of any MMO, isn't it? If you want the best stuff, you need to work for it. If you want your job to perform at its best, you need to grind to "master" it. And yes: I know I know, some people just leech off of others to get JP and don't work at all, but those people aren't us, are they? They are too lazy to work in a party, much less post on or read the forums. So lets remember our audience here: people who care enough about the game to try to change or enhance it.

[Rooj]

No one is, has, or ever will say that any aspect of the video game called Final Fantasy XI is not a grind. That's what MMORPGs are. The OP called getting JP an "extreme" grind which is wholly, truly, and mathematically false. If you're for some bizarre reason trying to solo your JP or doing other silly things instead of simply joining the content that was specifically designed to increase the rate at which you gain job points, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT?

You people have forced me to write an Apex guide, hopefully I can post it tomorrow.

[Secondplanet]

Complaining about the grind after SE gave skill books -.- do you even understand what a grind is? I takes someone 1 day to go from 1-99 with max stats from scratch. How much more of a easy mode do you want? I love JP farming, It took my wifey and myself about 2 months to get our main jobs (Drg and Smn) to 2100 just duo'ing it all. We took out time and enjoyed the feel of the old school style that we miss about the game. Its about the only thing left that can almost separate the players who leached their job to the top and those who worked for it.

Back in the day your combat/magic skills showed how skilled you were at a job, now its the stars that show it.

[vienne]

I do find JP is a grind, but its more a personal matter then a problem SE has created. My playtimes dont allow me to get into an apex pt (and being on asura i find people a tad rude and full of themselves if you try do something you havent done before) So my only option is soloing and its crazy slow....atm i have accumulated 900JP on my dnc and 800 on my pld. Some days i'm really sick of doing the same thing over and over again. But I dont like giving up so i'll prolly hit cap JP on one of those in a year ><

[Rydal]

I've said all I can say. I really don't know what people want. Anything else I say will result in me repeating myself. If you can't complete 75 era story missions, you should not be worrying about JP. Period. If you can't hit Apex mobs effectively, you should not be joining an Apex party. Period. If you can't solo the first hundred or so JP, you should not think about mastering the job. Period. JP just is not for you. Endgame content is just not for you. If you can't put the time and effort into bettering your character by those means, then do other things that are more conducive to your content level. If you want the cool things other people are getting (high level content invites, high JP, nice gear), you have to something to get it. Period.

[Elexia]

I've said all I can say. I really don't know what people want. Anything else I say will result in me repeating myself. If you can't complete 75 era story missions, you should not be worrying about JP. Period. If you can't hit Apex mobs effectively, you should not be joining an Apex party. Period. If you can't solo the first hundred or so JP, you should not think about mastering the job. Period. JP just is not for you. Endgame content is just not for you. If you can't put the time and effort

See, this is the problem - It's easy for people who have been consistently playing and kept up to stay caught up, it's the newer and returning players who have the trouble with it. "End-game is not for you", most people playing have been doing end-game since 2003 so I'm not sure how "end-game" can't be for someone just because the start up of the new character progression isn't as balanced as it could be. If you got in when they released it, you're set, much like no one is trying to "jump straight into apex parties", but the logic being put forth is:

"If you don't get a colibri camp, you shouldn't be trying to merit at all."

Remember how people were literally trying to drive each other out of colibri camps back in ToAU days? If you even played back then. Anyone who's played XI any length of time knows it's all about efficiency, that's the basis of the OP's argument if you don't get caught up on her wording.

[Jile]

Job points are a good idea in principle but in reality they have pretty much killed the "you can use any job on your char" idea. Now you have a main job and that's it.

Job points are such an extreme grind and are so important now to playing this game that you can only really use 1-2 jobs anymore. The rest are scrub jobs.

I've been back on ffxi for maybe 6-7 months and I have around 400 job points on my main job, my other jobs have barely any. I find myself only wanting to use my main for everything now because a) I want to get any possible job points on that b) they make so much difference that I feel gimped on any other job c) the prospect of taking on the massive job point grind on a new job is insanely NOPE.

The lower end of the job point acquisition curve really needs to be lifted or unlocking a set amount of job points on your main should unlock them on all jobs (say 100 job points on one job, unlocks said amount of all 99 jobs), the amount of soul crushing grinding needed to make a job serviceable should not be as much as it is.

Anyone that thinks FFXI is easy mode now isn't looking at the real picture, on most mmorpg games you get your gear and you're the best you can be. On FFXI you can have all the best gear and still be garbage, until you have grinded out a mass of job points.

FFXI is no different now at cap than it was back in the day, they just swapped the massive long winded grinding of fighting low drop rates with getting mass amounts of job points.

I can understand and relate to your frustration.

As I don't play up to 20hrs/day like I did years ago and if anything I'm a 'casual' player now, I'd say you're right that SE has made this a very long term grind for people like us to get Job Points. For those that get into perfect camps with perfect gear and grind out their Master jobs in no time, congrats to them but it's not like that for everyone... I mean at my current rate it's going to take a year or more for me to get one job to master level - for people with limited playtime that's our reality.

I've had people tell me, why bother playing if it's going to take a year to max job points on one job - its insulting really.

Regardless, SE isn't going to ease this grind without monetizing it some other way - its a method for keeping us playing longer, like grinds have always been, to make more money. To that end, with SE opening the cash shop doors to XI in a few updates we may see the *master* a job for only $49.95 or in the theme of pokemon, gotta master them all - for only $999.95.

[detlef]

One person complains that the login campaign that gives us free items is bad but then rips on someone else who thinks CP farming is too grindy. It's funny how people will cry and moan about how hard one aspect of the game in and then turn around and completely bitch out another player who is having trouble with something else. I think we've all done something like that.

I think the current CP situation is acceptable some of the time but not others. When you're exclusively looking for CP and want to do an Apex camp then you're probably good. But I'd like to see the everyday CP you get from other things increased a little bit. A little more from silt farming, a little bit larger bonus from a successful Ambuscade. That kind of thing. Make no mistake, Apex camps should be the best but the reward for playing the game should be bumped up. And since a lot of people talk about how great the CP was during double XP campaigns, let's not lose sight of the fact that it's comparatively not great the rest of the time and that this thread was posted after what, a 2-3 month dry spell?

[Rydal]

Don't try to pull the new/returning player card on me. I have been playing FFXI on this character since last June, started from scratch. In that year, I have mastered RDM and JP'd GEO, BLU and SMN to 100+. I didn't have years to be caught up. I didn't have a character with quests and missions already completed, skills capped, geared, etc. I know other players that have started after me that already have Relics and Mythics. I know a guy with an afterglow Relic that started less than a year ago.

JP is no where near as competitive as merits were. Mostly because the number of places to get JP are so numerous. The Boyada Tree, Escha Zi'tah and Ru'aun, Reisenjima, pretty much every gates zone, Marjami Ravine, Ra'Kaznar Outer and Inner are all places to JP decently. Again, in most cases, gear can make up for a job's lack of JP for most content. My 15 JP RUN can break 1100 Accuracy without food. I don't have the best gear either. With that, I can join Apex parties. After I get high enough JP's, I can join higher level fights to get better gear to JP faster to join better fights to get better gear to... See how it goes?

The OP is saying that JP is hard to get if you start from zero. No one is arguing that point. The system is set up that way. What the argument has turned into is whether getting those first few hundred points is feasible for everyone and I say it absolutely is. You have to do the OTHER stuff first. It sounds like new/returning players want to have the same access as people that have been playing for years. They can! Very quickly but not as soon as they start playing.


One person complains that the login campaign that gives us free items is bad but then rips on someone else who thinks CP farming is too grindy. It's funny how people will cry and moan about how hard one aspect of the game in and then turn around and completely bitch out another player who is having trouble with something else. I think we've all done something like that.

They're not the same thing at all though. You're comparing monthly rotten apples to sour oranges that taste better the more you eat them.

[Rooj]

I'm also a returning player so yeah, I don't buy that complaint at all. Apex isn't meant to be something you do right when you hit 99, or even right when you hit i119. Apex IS casual content. Forming a party never takes long because it is easy content that anyone (appropriately equipped) can join, it only takes a few minutes to walk to the camp, and most of the parties I joined lasted between 60 and 90 minutes.

I've also met other returning players or completely new players that have had no problem doing Apex... So I'm just trying to figure out what the REAL problem is here. Because it is not that JP is an "extreme" grind. I mean I wonder much JP I actually got from NOT even doing Apex... Just from things like Incursion, Vagary, Ambuscade, messing around in Escha zones... Domain Invasion. Are people under the impression that you need to do Apex BEFORE joining these events? Because that's wrong, and backwards.

[detlef]

They're not the same thing at all though. You're comparing monthly rotten apples to sour oranges that taste better the more you eat them.The point is someone could easily come along and definitively tell you that you are a terrible player depending on handouts. Why don't you have a Dring, you are obviously not a serious player. That attitude isn't all that different from chastising another player for having difficulty with CP.

I happen to agree with you that the login campaigns have been bad and would like to see something better next month. But I also think that job points are an issue for a lot of players and should be looked at.

[detlef]

I've also met other returning players or completely new players that have had no problem doing Apex... So I'm just trying to figure out what the REAL problem is here. Because it is not that JP is an "extreme" grind. I mean I wonder much JP I actually got from NOT even doing Apex... Just from things like Incursion, Vagary, Ambuscade, messing around in Escha zones... Domain Invasion. Are people under the impression that you need to do Apex BEFORE joining these events? Because that's wrong, and backwards.While it's true that you can get CP from a lot of these events, you're generally not as as flexible to choose which of your jobs is getting the CP. While they are nice bonuses (and as I've said, I think it's nice that you're making your character stronger while actually playing the game), it does suck when your CP is going into a job you don't care about as much.

I spent the last double XP campaign focusing on HTBC so I don't know how if things have changed but it's a lot more difficult if you can't find a GEO and a nuker. It's kind of unfortunate since a lot of PT setups depend on those jobs and people only want to CP on jobs that need it. It's especially bad if you want to get CP on a melee job, you pretty much have to build the PT around yourself and hope you can find enough support and magic damage to make it work. There's such a huge demand for GEOs and Death BLMs in endgame content you see a lot of them with stars already so it's harder to find people willing to CP these jobs lately, at least in my observation.

[Shyles]

It may sound strange, but I actually like how grindy CP is. As I mentioned in Rooj's thread, I soloed almost all of my CP on Dancer, and Puppetmaster as well. Many many Apex Erucas were stabbed. I never bothered with crabs, because why would a melee try to solo CP on a Paladin mob? Erucas had far less defense and evasion and trusts generally dispel cocoon within seconds.

Along the way, I made it a personal challenge to squeeze out more DPS so that I could kill the Erucas faster, and get longer CP chains. So I made improvements to my equipment and sometimes took breaks to focus on getting important items from soloable content like Wanion Belt, Fotia neck/belt, Love torque, etc... I also payed a lot of attention to my job abilities, and learned new timings to optimize how I used them over hundreds of repetitions.

I ended up with well-planned equipment sets, and a better understanding of my job. Before I was even at 500 JP, I was already doing almost 4x the amount of damage I was doing as a new Dancer. By the time I finally reached 2100 JP, I was doing nearly 6000 DPS and killing Apex Erucas within 1 or 2 rounds of 3-step skillchains.

I guess my point is that instead getting frustrated with the CP grind, you can make lemonade out of lemons. Apex mobs are a benchmark. They aren't end-game, but rather training dummies with defense/evasion that is more comparable to endgame NMs than any other normal mob in the game.

Sure you could get your Blue Mage carried to 2100 JP in an uber-awesome CP group in Doh Gates, but if you're a returning player or new to the job, then you'd likely just end up with a 2100 JP blue mage that is still in sparks or T1 escha-zitah gear that only knows how to spam CDC.

Ooooor you could challenge yourself by seeing how fast you can solo or duo Apex mobs, and make progress toward actually mastering your job. Yes it takes longer, but you do come out of it a better player.

[Rydal]

The point is someone could easily come along and definitively tell you that you are a terrible player depending on handouts. Why don't you have a Dring, you are obviously not a serious player. That attitude isn't all that different from chastising another player for having difficulty with CP.

I happen to agree with you that the login campaigns have been bad and would like to see something better next month. But I also think that job points are an issue for a lot of players and should be looked at.

I never said anyone here was a terrible player for thinking JP grinding is a huge grind. I have an issue with people saying JP is a huge grind but not helping themselves by making the grind easier with CP Bonuses AND saying the CP Bonuses are a huge grind. JP is a huge grind. That's a given. But there are ways to change 100 CP into 1500 CP on the same mob with no job gifts doing soloable and usually non-99 content. I am chastising someone who says that finishing Rise of Zilart is a huge grind or completing 2 Lair reives in Ceizak Battlegrounds is a huge grind or feeding a Rabbit or Uragnite once a day is a huge grind. People make JP an issue when it really isn't.

It will take a while to get a decent amount if you solo or are not doing it the "efficient" way, but you'll see more appealing numbers by getting CP Bonuses available outside Job gifts. And people usually get Job Master stars because they devote most of their time in-game to CPing. They usually have all their CP Bonuses capped in order to ease the grind. If you complain about JP when you haven't gotten at least some of the bonuses, your complaint can't be taken seriously. It just sounds lazy.

CP grinding is about dedication and patience, not luck (like a D. ring is). You can't call someone a bad player because of bad luck. If you want to be better at your job, you get JP. I don't think it was meant to be easy and thankfully, Square made it easier as you go along, not harder, which is the opposite of the EXP system. They could have easily made it get harder and harder as you go up.

[Olor]

It will take a while to get a decent amount if you solo or are not doing it the "efficient" way, but you'll see more appealing numbers by getting CP Bonuses available outside Job gifts. And people usually get Job Master stars because they devote most of their time in-game to CPing. They usually have all their CP Bonuses capped in order to ease the grind. If you complain about JP when you haven't gotten at least some of the bonuses, your complaint can't be taken seriously. It just sounds lazy.

I've gotten lots of the bonuses (all the rieves, wildskeeper, ROV, Zilart) but it is complete and total BS to pretend that spending 100 hours bored out of your mind, soloing cut scenes and fights tuned for level 60-75 characters is not "a grind" - it is. Saying "oh do this thing and CP is less of a grind" while ignoring that "this thing" is itself a grind is asinine.

All I am asking for is for REAL CONTENT to get a CP boost. I don't play often enough to want to mindlessly grind pointless mobs. Give me more CP for doing things like ambuscade, killing NMs etc. I don't actually think that is a lot to ask.

And I am working on my missions but they make me want to rage quit the game because I don't like spending hours walking between cut scenes, it is super boring so I have to break up missions with other things. It's not a character flaw to prefer different things in video games - nor is it unreasonable to question WHY CP gains are locked behind mission progress anyway - other than to put newer/returning players even further behind established players - as well as punishing people who don't really like soloing boring old missions with ridiculous gating.

Sorry, I just don't find running to a place and standing around waiting for night to fall is that fun. Nor do I find it fun to wander around in places with bad maps looking for harvest points. ETC ETC.

[Rydal]

I've gotten lots of the bonuses (all the rieves, wildskeeper, ROV, Zilart) but it is complete and total BS to pretend that spending 100 hours bored out of your mind, soloing cut scenes and fights tuned for level 60-75 characters is not "a grind" - it is. Saying "oh do this thing and CP is less of a grind" while ignoring that "this thing" is itself a grind is asinine.

All I am asking for is for REAL CONTENT to get a CP boost. I don't play often enough to want to mindlessly grind pointless mobs. Give me more CP for doing things like ambuscade, killing NMs etc. I don't actually think that is a lot to ask.

And I am working on my missions but they make me want to rage quit the game because I don't like spending hours walking between cut scenes, it is super boring so I have to break up missions with other things. It's not a character flaw to prefer different things in video games - nor is it unreasonable to question WHY CP gains are locked behind mission progress anyway - other than to put newer/returning players even further behind established players - as well as punishing people who don't really like soloing boring old missions with ridiculous gating.

Sorry, I just don't find running to a place and standing around waiting for night to fall is that fun. Nor do I find it fun to wander around in places with bad maps looking for harvest points. ETC ETC.

Old missions are boring but I think of it as a way to reward people to do old content. Why else would a new player do Wings of the Goddess besides an earring and summon they don't really need? Why would anyone do Treasures of Aht Urghan? Rise of Zilart? Reives? And just to go back to the math, RoV ch 3 KIs are 90% CP Bonus together. That's equal to doing all the story missions. If you hate story missions, you can skip them all and just complete RoV. New content! I personally don't find any of the stories to be that bad, besides Wings of the Goddess. I loved RoZ. CoP was longer (admittedly annoying for a few missions) but overall not that bad. Think of it this way, you just have to do it once and put it behind you.

Ambuscade and other relevant content SHOULD give more CP (at least enough for a JP per fight). That's not what this discussion was about at all. Even still, with the bonuses you'd still get more bang for your buck so you'd be losing CP by not getting them.

Also, you're completely exaggerating with 100 hours. Rise of Zilart can be done in one day (maybe like 8-10 hours) at 99 (in sparks gear). That's less than a week if you dedicate 2 hours a day to the missions. Treasures of Aht urghan is about the same length of time if you ignore the JP midnight waits. Mounts have made doing old stuff easier with the walking. FFXI is not a fast game. At least story missions can be solo'd and done very quickly now. Imagine if they offered the bonuses with JP midnights and level capping and no trusts/forced parties.

[Zeldar]

You may be surprised Olor, but I would think the majority of us ENJOY the mission story lines. Sure, everyone feels differently. Some adore Shantotto. Me...I would love to see her eaten by a malboro. The point is, this is first and foremost a Final Fantasy game. Final Fantasy is about story and lore. They have always been complex games with complex stories, and most of us love that. I am not calling you a non-fan or anything if you don't like that aspect of the game. I don't have a problem with that at all. Just don't call a core part of the game not "real content".

[Rooj]

If you don't enjoy the storylines and cutscenes.................. WHY are you playing FINAL FANTASY?

[detlef]

I never said anyone here was a terrible player for thinking JP grinding is a huge grind. I have an issue with people saying JP is a huge grind but not helping themselves by making the grind easier with CP Bonuses AND saying the CP Bonuses are a huge grind. JP is a huge grind. That's a given. But there are ways to change 100 CP into 1500 CP on the same mob with no job gifts doing soloable and usually non-99 content. I am chastising someone who says that finishing Rise of Zilart is a huge grind or completing 2 Lair reives in Ceizak Battlegrounds is a huge grind or feeding a Rabbit or Uragnite once a day is a huge grind. People make JP an issue when it really isn't.

It will take a while to get a decent amount if you solo or are not doing it the "efficient" way, but you'll see more appealing numbers by getting CP Bonuses available outside Job gifts. And people usually get Job Master stars because they devote most of their time in-game to CPing. They usually have all their CP Bonuses capped in order to ease the grind. If you complain about JP when you haven't gotten at least some of the bonuses, your complaint can't be taken seriously. It just sounds lazy.I agree that players should make every effort to pursue and earn these bonuses (I personally think every player should complete every single mission just for the experience alone). Obviously, CP rates are abysmal without these bonuses, but I was under the impression that the complaint was that JP was too grindy even with these bonuses. I may have missed it if that point was already discussed.


CP grinding is about dedication and patience, not luck (like a D. ring is). You can't call someone a bad player because of bad luck. If you want to be better at your job, you get JP. I don't think it was meant to be easy and thankfully, Square made it easier as you go along, not harder, which is the opposite of the EXP system. They could have easily made it get harder and harder as you go up.I’m not entirely certain JP gets that much easier. The CP rates and the gifts definitely improve but the cost of each upgrade increases and gifts are spaced further apart. It might be a wash.

Considering how easy it is to acquire Savory Shanks these days, a case can be made that farming a Dring is not as luck-based anymore and is more about grinding and dedication. My point was just the attitude we have as a playerbase sometimes where we can complain about one thing that another person is fine with while telling other players to stop complaining when the situation is reversed. I’m sure if I checked my post history I’d definitely be guilty of this. In this case I just think JP is a little more annoying than it should be.

[Zeldar]

If you recall, when job points first came out there were no boosts. We complained that it was too grindy, so they added all these bonuses and apex mobs. So thank you for making JP soooo very much easier than they used to be. Sorry that it still isn't enough for some players. I've found that you just can't satisfy some people.

[Stompa]

Jobmaster took me ages, and I loved the slow journey.
Stompa.
:)

[Rydal]

I’m not entirely certain JP gets that much easier. The CP rates and the gifts definitely improve but the cost of each upgrade increases and gifts are spaced further apart. It might be a wash.


As someone that hates the thought of grinding, the jump from 1200 to 2100 is so fast that you won't notice. During the last CP campaign, my RDM sat at about 800 JP at the start. Two days of Apex grinding got me to about 1200ish. I thought that was all I could do. The third day I went from 1200 to 1500 in one run (about an hour), then 1500 to 1800 in the next hour after a break. It was getting late so I figured I had the whole weekend to finish the last 300. The party decided to try pushing out a little more. I ended up being 11 JP over 2100 by the time I gave up. 900 JP in 3 hours. Not the most efficient party either (I was irritated because a SCH was in the party at one point and he didn't do anything but mess up the SCs so he was literally leeching). Past the last CP bonus gift, I was getting 2 JP per mob without a ring active.

I get your point about the complaining thing. Everyone has their own opinions and experiences, likes and dislikes. I will just say unless you get all the bonuses and rings and trusts, etc, you haven't reached the full potential of CPing and the complaints are there without having the entire experience. That's like someone complaining that the D. ring drop rate sucks but they are only using beastly shanks in order to get savories instead of just getting both and using the behemoth suit and buying both shanks from bazaars. One person is using one (bad) method while they could be exhausting all the tools given to them. Either way, D. ring is still luck based. JP literally gets easier as you go along and you are rewarded better for it.

Edit: Stompa is the best person on this forum. Stompa for president.

[Rooj]

The "What's The Big Hurry"

Preach it sister. \o/

[Zeldar]

As a little sidenote, the freshly picked says we get another campaign in August.

[Selindrile]

"What's The Big Hurry"


If you don't enjoy the storylines and cutscenes.................. WHY are you playing FINAL FANTASY?

Different people are here for different reasons, my way of having fun is no less legitimate than yours.

All we can do, as a community, is put forth our ideas and our likes and dislikes, it's senseless to bash other people's ways of having fun or reasons they're playing the game.

I'm not having fun if I feel like progression is too slow.
I dislike storylines and cutscenes.

But I have never told anyone else that they need to skip cutscenes or storyline or that they have to do things my way to enjoy FFXI.

[OmnysValefor]

I mean I wonder much JP I actually got from NOT even doing Apex... Just from things like Incursion, Vagary, Ambuscade, messing around in Escha zones...

I'm pretty sure that this month's Ambuscade gives less CP than last month. I didn't actually record numbers. "Adds" in both months' regular ambuscade never gave CP (kinda disappointing), but I think they actually nerfed how much the boss gives. It's pretty silly--we both know how quickly a crab can die but the crab gives 3-20 times as much CP as sometimes even very difficult bosses (like UNM).

The other problem is, when I go to most events, I go on specific jobs. I don't just go on DNC because DNC needs CP. 3/4 jobs that I go on, PLD / GEO / BLU are capped on JP but I still come on what's best for the group. If it's suitable to bring RUN and earn a little JP, I like to bring RUN.

So the only time to CP jobs I want JP for (like SCH which is still <100 lol) is in apex parties or solo. Solo is a pretty miserable waste of time for a lot of jobs and there is minimal interest (I basically mean zero) in apexing outside of campaign on Valefor, but we've been starved of Apex for months so people will be hogging the good camps, if they're not timed with something lucrative again.

To me, that has been a consistent problem with XI, except during abyssea, the choice is usually Endgame, Gil, OR Experience points (how many people left dynamis with much more XP than they entered with?), it would be nice to see "Endgame" (counting Spambuscade) provide better experience. Is it too much to ask that Ambuscade gives a full job point to every rank (VE-VD, I'm still going to do VD)? Is it too much to ask that Sinister Reign gives 3 job points or maybe 6 JP is a choice right there with lol1k Bayld.

I don't think it's too much to ask that every boss 119 and above gives at least 1 job point. That's still way more than 1000 fights, even if CP% bonuses counted.

It's ha-larious that the two best ways to get JP in this game teach you the least about your job, since JP is supposed to be about Mastery: Apex monsters and cleaving.

Edit: Ambuscade isn't hard, but events like Vagary and Incursion have actual mechanics that will actually mess you up / maybeee wipe your group if things really get out of hand.

Sinister Reign isn't hard and most Escha bosses aren't hard but all of these still require people to pay attention and play reasonably properly even if they do grossly outgear it.

[Eaglestrike]

Different people are here for different reasons, my way of having fun is no less legitimate than yours.

All we can do, as a community, is put forth our ideas and our likes and dislikes, it's senseless to bash other people's ways of having fun or reasons they're playing the game.

I'm not having fun if I feel like progression is too slow.
I dislike storylines and cutscenes.

But I have never told anyone else that they need to skip cutscenes or storyline or that they have to do things my way to enjoy FFXI.

Here's one thing I'm not getting though. The people are here complaining about CP being a grind. But they dislike story/cutscenes, so they get less bonus, and that's okay. But they also don't like fighting mobs? There's basically two parts to this game, storyline and fighting. If you don't enjoy either one...I don't know why you're here.

I JP'd my THF from 1200 to 2100 because I legitimately enjoy playing that job. I didn't touch an Apex party, I went out and I killed things on my job of choice because I like to play it. And I got it to 2100. I don't get how people who claim to enjoy x or y job are having an issue playing x or y job and getting it JP.

[Zeldar]

Different people are here for different reasons, my way of having fun is no less legitimate than yours.

All we can do, as a community, is put forth our ideas and our likes and dislikes, it's senseless to bash other people's ways of having fun or reasons they're playing the game.

I'm not having fun if I feel like progression is too slow.
I dislike storylines and cutscenes.

But I have never told anyone else that they need to skip cutscenes or storyline or that they have to do things my way to enjoy FFXI.

You ARE telling us, in a roundabout way, how we should play.You are telling the DEV team to change the game for you because you don't feel like putting in the time I have. I LIKE the fact that I am rewarded for doing missions. It gives me a sense of accomplishment, but you want to take that away from me. You want to negate my work by giving the same rewards to someone too lazy to do the missions. Sorry, but its nice that the people dedicated enough to do all the missions are rewarded. I also find it silly that people want to come into a game , over a decade after it starts, and expect to catch up with minimal effort in a short amount of time. I've been enjoying this game since NA release so yes, I have more boosts than you, I have access to everything in the game, and I have 500 billion voidstones saved up. Good news for you though: you can now accomplish the same things I have with almost no outside help and in a tiny fraction of the time. They have changed my experience more than enough to suit your desires.

[Eaglestrike]

You ARE telling us, in a roundabout way, how we should play.You are telling the DEV team to change the game for you because you don't feel like putting in the time I have. I LIKE the fact that I am rewarded for doing missions. It gives me a sense of accomplishment, but you want to take that away from me. You want to negate my work by giving the same rewards to someone too lazy to do the missions. Sorry, but its nice that the people dedicated enough to do all the missions are rewarded. I also find it silly that people want to come into a game , over a decade after it starts, and expect to catch up with minimal effort in a short amount of time. I've been enjoying this game since NA release so yes, I have more boosts than you, I have access to everything in the game, and I have 500 billion voidstones saved up. Good news for you though: you can now accomplish the same things I have with almost no outside help and in a tiny fraction of the time. They have changed my experience more than enough to suit your desires.

And to go with it, missions also give vorseals. Which have a rather significant effect on how well you're going to kill all the hard bosses in the game right now (and maybe forever). If you can skip over vorseals, you can skip over the JP buffs as well.

[vienne]

I'm not in a hurry, I just came to accept that if you have kids, a busy job, no stamina to play longer then 2 hours straight after the kids are sleeping, etc. etc. I'll have to get used to being that one person with no stars above my head, although i've been playing my DNC for many years now :D
Some days I'm perfectly fine with standing there poking 3 mobs every half an hour and getting back to the things that matter in my life... But some days I'd like to excell in that one game I've enjoyed playing for so long, and I get jealous and frustrated ><

[Castanica]

It's funny that most of the people who say JP acquisition rate is fine are the people who won't go get JP until the double CP event is active.

Then you can't get CP because everyone is doing it and all camps are full, if that doesn't show you have terribly bad CP is then I don't know what does.

The CP curve is broken, the first 1k JP should be a lot easier to get as to slowly drag people into this massive grind (and not be completely offputting) and there should be far more encouragement for people to use other jobs (by unlocking set amounts of JP on one job unlocking a set amount on all jobs) and completing content giving CP scrolls instead of the current system, so that you can use those CP scrolls on any job you want.

[Selindrile]

Stuff about not understanding people's motivatoins.

You don't have to understand everyone's motivations, I'm here because I enjoy doing specific things in groups, I loved Delve, Vagary, I loved Abyssea, at the end of the day I'm here because I like the mechanics of the game, optimizing my gear, and playing with my friends, those may not be the same things you value, but it's okay, we can like different things.




Calling people who want changes that I lobbied for lazy and new, and that asking for these changes is telling you how to play.

I've been playing since the US release, like yourself, also have all the boosts, have a billion voidstones, all the areas, almost all the quests and missions done. (I'm missing bastok and some of the post-ring ones that are newish in adoulin) I have four master jobs to your one, it's amusing that you're making all these assumptions, but I'm lobbying from what I see as a place of reasonable effort to feel accomplished and what generates the most fun for me and those I know at the end of the day, you're welcome to say you find another way more fun, but insulting anyone who likes it another way doesn't seem fair or reasonable to me.

They've made changes to the game, they're going to make more, they're going to make more content, they've asked for input, it would be foolish not to present our viewpoint and hope that the devs see it the same way or see enough requests for something to make it that way. At the end of the day, they want to make the game what most people enjoy, you're welcome to state what you like, but so will everyone else.

[OmnysValefor]

I'm not a fan of the missions/story in this game. The only stories I liked were WotG (which, admittedly, the quest intertwining sucked) and RoV, which I came back to the game to do.

That being said, I had a few friends that were slow about completing missions--not due to playtime but just no initiative. It sucked when they wanted me to come duo raptors or something with them knowing that I was getting like 4 times the CP they were.

Finish the missions, you do yourself a huge favor. Moonshade and Adoulin Ring are too good not to have and the others are still very good. You can probably live without Rajas these days but it's still worth it.

I have no problem with the curve, because as you climb, each bonus gets further apart and each category gets more expensive. You don't see the JOB POINT! animation as fast in the early tiers, but you're kind of getting more out of each job point.

I haven't really been thankful once for 45m CD on special abilities. Either 2 hour isn't part of the strat and I'm not using it or we're using something like MMM or Sabotender or Corsairs (try) to reset these abilities.

[Shyles]

It's funny that most of the people who say JP acquisition rate is fine are the people who won't go get JP until the double CP event is active.

This is quite a hasty generalization. Perhaps "some" people feel that way, but one person on a forum doesn't represent the opinions of everyone. I am one of those who thinks that JP is fine, but I never waited for CP events and neither have any of my friends. I started and stopped CPing whenever I felt like it, or when I wanted to test my rotations.



Then you can't get CP because everyone is doing it and all camps are full, if that doesn't show you have terribly bad CP is then I don't know what does.

This also something I haven't experienced, but as a melee player, my ideal camps are in Moh Gates. There was always something to kill during the campaign even on Odin, and each Eruca camp can support two parties or soloers. I soloed almost all of my JP for both DNC and PUP on Apex Erucas, and would usually share a camp with a party already there. In the event that both of us were killing too fast for respawns, I would sometimes go fight Raptors/Matas or Efts out of courtesy. Or if they were being jerks, I would just stay and try to kill faster than them :p



The CP curve is broken, the first 1k JP should be a lot easier to get as to slowly drag people into this massive grind (and not be completely offputting) and there should be far more encouragement for people to use other jobs (by unlocking set amounts of JP on one job unlocking a set amount on all jobs) and completing content giving CP scrolls instead of the current system, so that you can use those CP scrolls on any job you want.

I disagree with everything here. Consider that JP gifts cost more as you earn more gifts. You only need to spend 20 JP to go up from the 1st to 2nd CP Bonus tiers, but it takes 160 JP between the last two tiers. That's a 700% increase in required JP spent, yet the CP bonus gifts are only giving you 285% more CP by that point. In other words, The first several JP gifts are easier to get. The things that make them feel harder to some players are likely fundamental things like their gear quality and game experience at that stage. Hence why some of us suggest it's more beneficial for new/returning players to focus on getting adequate gear first before worrying about their CP.

I made a post on page 5 (that was promptly buried) (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/51039-Job-points-has-ruined-one-of-the-foundations-of-this-game?p=582709&viewfull=1#post582709) explaining my thoughts and why I enjoyed my CP grind and how I got more out of it than just my 3 stars. I never rushed my CP and I got a lot of valuable practice from soloing my CP rather than joining a burn party. I learned a lot about my job, and came out a better player. I also learned that getting 2100 JP really isn't all that important in the end, as I got far more out of optimizing my job ability usage and improving my gear than I got from any of the JP gifts.

[Castanica]

On Asura you're lucky to see 1 or 2 parties at any of the Apex camps during normal times, Reisen camps are almost always freely available. During double CP almost every Apex camp is full and Reisen is almost impossible to get CP in because most camps are full.

[OmnysValefor]

Valefor's the same way (actually much worse), but I'm shocked to hear that about Asura.

I get it though, once you've had double cp, the half-campaign just feels off and slow. It feels like something is wrong/the party is slow/something.

[Zeldar]

You don't have to understand everyone's motivations, I'm here because I enjoy doing specific things in groups, I loved Delve, Vagary, I loved Abyssea, at the end of the day I'm here because I like the mechanics of the game, optimizing my gear, and playing with my friends, those may not be the same things you value, but it's okay, we can like different things.





I've been playing since the US release, like yourself, also have all the boosts, have a billion voidstones, all the areas, almost all the quests and missions done. (I'm missing bastok and some of the post-ring ones that are newish in adoulin) I have four master jobs to your one, it's amusing that you're making all these assumptions, but I'm lobbying from what I see as a place of reasonable effort to feel accomplished and what generates the most fun for me and those I know at the end of the day, you're welcome to say you find another way more fun, but insulting anyone who likes it another way doesn't seem fair or reasonable to me.

They've made changes to the game, they're going to make more, they're going to make more content, they've asked for input, it would be foolish not to present our viewpoint and hope that the devs see it the same way or see enough requests for something to make it that way. At the end of the day, they want to make the game what most people enjoy, you're welcome to state what you like, but so will everyone else.

Hey, I'm calling it what it is. People wanting changes that make already easy content easier, or wanting the ability to completely bypass content yet still get the same advantages as those who do it IS LAZY. "I want something but I don't want to work for it, or want to work a lot less for it" ... thats the epitome of LAZINESS. Just because you are calling for changes doesn't mean what you are calling for is right. They ask for input, but that doesn't make all the feedback given right. Yes, I only have stars on BLM and a few away on BLU.....but you don't see me on here crying that CP are too hard to get, do you? The fact that I haven't mastered all my 99 jobs, or even the 5 I like to play, has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Selindrile]

Hey, I'm calling it what it is. People wanting changes that make already easy content easier, or wanting the ability to completely bypass content yet still get the same advantages as those who do it IS LAZY. "I want something but I don't want to work for it, or want to work a lot less for it" ... thats the epitome of LAZINESS. Just because you are calling for changes doesn't mean what you are calling for is right. They ask for input, but that doesn't make all the feedback given right. Yes, I only have stars on BLM and a few away on BLU.....but you don't see me on here crying that CP are too hard to get, do you? The fact that I haven't mastered all my 99 jobs, or even the 5 I like to play, has absolutely nothing to do with it.

You can keep repeating how the guy who has done more work on this exact subject is lazier than you, but it just makes you seem silly.

Me, or you, or anyone requesting what we want out of FFXI aren't necessarily more right, or wrong, because there isn't really an objective measure here, I'll request the future to be the way I want it to be, and you're free to do the same.

But insulting those who have another opinion than you on exactly how much effort is "proper" to feel accomplished in a video game is just downright ridiculous.

There is obviously some amount that feels like the right amount of effort for each of us, I'm sure some people would like it if the CP generation rate was 1/100th of what it currently is, and they might call you who want it where it is lazy for not wanting it to be worth more, not wanting to work harder for the reward... but those people are the minority, and most games development seem to try to appeal to the majority of their players, and the majority of the players, as best as I can tell, would like the sliding bar lower than where it is now.

[Castanica]

Hey, I'm calling it what it is. People wanting changes that make already easy content easier, or wanting the ability to completely bypass content yet still get the same advantages as those who do it IS LAZY. "I want something but I don't want to work for it, or want to work a lot less for it" ... thats the epitome of LAZINESS. Just because you are calling for changes doesn't mean what you are calling for is right. They ask for input, but that doesn't make all the feedback given right. Yes, I only have stars on BLM and a few away on BLU.....but you don't see me on here crying that CP are too hard to get, do you? The fact that I haven't mastered all my 99 jobs, or even the 5 I like to play, has absolutely nothing to do with it.

You seem to be totally oblivious that different people have different tolerances for mindless grinding and need to be eased into the better, you also seem to think everyone can go do Apex which isn't the case. This game can ill afford to lose people in the way it does, the quitting rate on Asura alone is very high. Most of the new people I see joining or returning are gone within a few months, disgracefully slow and unrewarding JP acquisition is one of the major annoyances.

FFXI is the undisputed king of grind in this genre, I've played almost all of the current games and nothing comes close to this. It's pretty comparable to old ffxi in terms of how grindy it is (they just moved the grind around to give the illusion it's better).

I don't think most people mind so much that getting mastery is such a long task, the problem is that getting your character acceptable amount of JP is such a grind when being acceptable is the key to getting more CP per hour. The first 1k JP or so should be far quicker, far easier. Not only would this encourage the mass of players to push on with JP but it would encourage teh grinders to try master far more jobs than they currently do.

Some seem to have the mindset that the longer the grind, the longer the player will stick around. That's not how it works, when something seems insurmountable people don't ever really engage with the grind. They then quit because they have no valid things to do, lots of hardcore players even quit with only a handful mastered jobs (which is pathetic given "how easy it is to them")

[Zeldar]

The majority of the players I come in contact with daily have no gripe at all about how easy or difficult it is to obtain JP. Not in my ls, and not in the pick-ups I join when I'm feeling frisky. And yes: I have every right to view people who want the game made easier for them as lazy. You may have more job points than me, but thats because I do not prioritize them. My obs are well beyond simply "functional" without them. I concentrate on aspects of the game that I see as more important to me. I would like for the dev team to spend THEIR limited time and resources on things more important to the development of the game. For example, would their resources be better spent making JP faster to get ( I guess I'll correct myself in that the gripe isn't that they are HARD to get, but not fast enough), or making melee'ing at close range actually possible on high tier content? I won't presume to know which you feel is more important to the community as a whole, but as someone with samurai and blue "mastered", I think we all know the honest answer. So lets stop wasting dev team LIMITED time with trivial matters like this and encourage the mt o fix the REAL issues with the game.

[Castanica]

The majority of the players I come in contact with daily have no gripe at all about how easy or difficult it is to obtain JP. Not in my ls, and not in the pick-ups I join when I'm feeling frisky. And yes: I have every right to view people who want the game made easier for them as lazy. You may have more job points than me, but thats because I do not prioritize them. My obs are well beyond simply "functional" without them. I concentrate on aspects of the game that I see as more important to me. I would like for the dev team to spend THEIR limited time and resources on things more important to the development of the game. For example, would their resources be better spent making JP faster to get ( I guess I'll correct myself in that the gripe isn't that they are HARD to get, but not fast enough), or making melee'ing at close range actually possible on high tier content? I won't presume to know which you feel is more important to the community as a whole, but as someone with samurai and blue "mastered", I think we all know the honest answer. So lets stop wasting dev team LIMITED time with trivial matters like this and encourage the mt o fix the REAL issues with the game.

LOL

This post was more hilarious than the whole 2 hours of the new ghostbusters film, not saying that much I guess...but still!

[Zeldar]

LOL

This post was more hilarious than the whole 2 hours of the new ghostbusters film, not saying that much I guess...but still!

"Umm, he has a point and I have no intelligent counter . I'll just laugh it off then" What is so hilarious about it?

[OmnysValefor]

Jobmaster took me ages, and I loved the slow journey.
Stompa.
:)

..."What's The Big Hurry"

I realize you edited out the "What's The Big Hurry" probably for fear of sounding rude but it's a fair question.

"The big hurry" for a lot of players is the desire to participate in content. I can see both sides of the argument, having mastered a few jobs and seemingly never able to master others due to time. Mastering a job gives you gifts that, in regards to the core purpose of your job, raises your level a little bit and that's not even touching on what the categories do. Some categories and gifts are way more potent than "a few levels", some are way less. This disparity is not spread evenly across jobs.

Take SCH for instance: It's capacity to skillchain, which is often used in the game, is not nearly as strong until the SCH reaches 550 JP. More than 25% of the way through the 'grind'. BLU's 20 Blue Magic Points category and 100/1200 literally redefine what the job is capable of.

[Eaglestrike]

You don't have to understand everyone's motivations, I'm here because I enjoy doing specific things in groups, I loved Delve, Vagary, I loved Abyssea, at the end of the day I'm here because I like the mechanics of the game, optimizing my gear, and playing with my friends, those may not be the same things you value, but it's okay, we can like different things.

I've been playing since the US release, like yourself, also have all the boosts, have a billion voidstones, all the areas, almost all the quests and missions done. (I'm missing bastok and some of the post-ring ones that are newish in adoulin) I have four master jobs to your one, it's amusing that you're making all these assumptions, but I'm lobbying from what I see as a place of reasonable effort to feel accomplished and what generates the most fun for me and those I know at the end of the day, you're welcome to say you find another way more fun, but insulting anyone who likes it another way doesn't seem fair or reasonable to me.

They've made changes to the game, they're going to make more, they're going to make more content, they've asked for input, it would be foolish not to present our viewpoint and hope that the devs see it the same way or see enough requests for something to make it that way. At the end of the day, they want to make the game what most people enjoy, you're welcome to state what you like, but so will everyone else.

If you enjoy the mechanics of the game, optimizing your gear and playing with friends...how is farming JP a problem? Apex parties are literally one of the most fundamental aspects of the game. You can do your standard 6-man tank, 2x DD, 2x support, healer, or tweak it a bit, and play the game. You also can optimize your gear between JP sessions and notice the improvement. And playing with friends is ideal for CP!

You can also get a few JP's doing Delves and Vagary. You're not in a huge rush to max JP instantly, right?

Also my point I made sometime earlier stands, if you're worried about JP for min/max reasons you need to do all missions for vorseals and rewards (Rajas is still decently viable, Moonshade and Adoulin rings are BiS depending on choices, etc.) And they give a CP bonus to them. If you are okay skipping over missions because you simply don't enjoy them, I don't see why you absolutely MUST have master on a job, because the min/max principle would mean you must complete missions, so if you're not about min/max you can handle not being a master <job> too.



There is obviously some amount that feels like the right amount of effort for each of us, I'm sure some people would like it if the CP generation rate was 1/100th of what it currently is

...it used to be, basically. They've already made THAT many boosts to the content. The prime CP spot used to be the bats in Woh Gates Map 2 for around 1k CP a pop, during double CP/Chain CP event on my COR I hit the max CP per kill of 65536 or whatever it caps out at. They have made JP acquisition sooooooooooooooooo much easier already there's very little else they can even do for it.

[Selindrile]

If you enjoy the mechanics of the game, optimizing your gear and playing with friends...how is farming JP a problem?

Because after a certain amount of repetition it becomes very un-fun to me, I don't see how this is hard to understand, it's not a world-ending problem or else I would've quit ages ago, but because at the end of the day, I find myself doing this to the point that it's un-fun so that I can do things that are fun to me, of course I put forth a desire to lessen the un-fun parts of the game to me, this is not complicated.


Apex parties are literally one of the most fundamental aspects of the game. -
You're not in a huge rush to max JP instantly, right?

Apex parties are by definition anything but fundamental, you can't do them until you're already max level and geared to a certain point, so they're not in any way part of the foundation of the game, and you can participate in all content in the game never having done them, (If you gain your CP by cleaving, for example). Also, being in a huge rush is hard to define, I suppose, like I said, I feel like they should come much faster than they do, call that a huge rush if you like.


Also my point I made sometime earlier stands, if you're worried about JP for min/max reasons you need to do all missions for vorseals and rewards (Rajas is still decently viable, Moonshade and Adoulin rings are BiS depending on choices, etc.) And they give a CP bonus to them. If you are okay skipping over missions because you simply don't enjoy them, I don't see why you absolutely MUST have master on a job, because the min/max principle would mean you must complete missions, so if you're not about min/max you can handle not being a master <job> too.

As I've said, I've already done all those missions, for the rewards, and have 4 master jobs, I didn't enjoy that part really, but the total time investment wasn't so large that I found enough of an issue by and large to gripe about it, with JP it is moreso.... also, the importance of master or 1200+ jp varies wildly from job to job. I don't give a flippity flip about having JP on PLD, I play PLD in endgame all the time and all the JP bonuses are so terribly minor, I just couldn't care less. I have capped BLU WHM GEO, and use them all the time, BLU and GEO get strong bonuses out of JP, and I would've felt very bad about using them without JP, WHM however would've been fine, but I liked them enough to cap it anyway. I can't play a few jobs in endgame (SCH, DNC, RUN) because I (and others in my shell) feel they're too gimpy to participate in what I would like to use them for without job points. As someone who has already put a ton of time into them, I feel like they come far too slow to be reasonable, and I have Sam capped too, but on hard content it can't survive, and on easy content I'd rather play Blu because it doesn't require as much support to reach hastecap, so I just never play it.




...it used to be, basically. They've already made THAT many boosts to the content. The prime CP spot used to be the bats in Woh Gates Map 2 for around 1k CP a pop, during double CP/Chain CP event on my COR I hit the max CP per kill of 65536 or whatever it caps out at. They have made JP acquisition sooooooooooooooooo much easier already there's very little else they can even do for it.

Oh trust me, I know, and there was no outcry that need to repeal these changes, because the time investment is still far too high in general... I can't fathom how you could think there could be little else they can even do, they can literally do any of the things they've already done, adding more multipliers, increasing campaign duration or multiplier, or, literally anything to raise the amount of cp gained... there's a multitude of things they could do.

[Eaglestrike]

Because after a certain amount of repetition it becomes very un-fun to me, I don't see how this is hard to understand, it's not a world-ending problem or else I would've quit ages ago, but because at the end of the day, I find myself doing this to the point that it's un-fun so that I can do things that are fun to me, of course I put forth a desire to lessen the un-fun parts of the game to me, this is not complicated.

Apex parties are by definition anything but fundamental, you can't do them until you're already max level and geared to a certain point, so they're not in any way part of the foundation of the game, and you can participate in all content in the game never having done them, (If you gain your CP by cleaving, for example). Also, being in a huge rush is hard to define, I suppose, like I said, I feel like they should come much faster than they do, call that a huge rush if you like.

Apex parties are an ilvl version of how this entire game used to be for the first few years of its existence. People clamored for a return to that style of play and SE answered with Apex creatures. Did you not play this game before Abyssea or something? Because a 6-man group slowly farming one mob at a time was practically THE ENTIRE GAME from 2003 until 2009ish.


As I've said, I've already done all those missions, for the rewards, and have 4 master jobs, I didn't enjoy that part really, but the total time investment wasn't so large that I found enough of an issue by and large to gripe about it, with JP it is moreso.... also, the importance of master or 1200+ jp varies wildly from job to job. I don't give a flippity flip about having JP on PLD, I play PLD in endgame all the time and all the JP bonuses are so terribly minor, I just couldn't care less. I have capped BLU WHM GEO, and use them all the time, BLU and GEO get strong bonuses out of JP, and I would've felt very bad about using them without JP, WHM however would've been fine, but I liked them enough to cap it anyway. I can't play a few jobs in endgame (SCH, DNC, RUN) because I (and others in my shell) feel they're too gimpy to participate in what I would like to use them for without job points. As someone who has already put a ton of time into them, I feel like they come far too slow to be reasonable, and I have Sam capped too, but on hard content it can't survive, and on easy content I'd rather play Blu because it doesn't require as much support to reach hastecap, so I just never play it.

Oh trust me, I know, and there was no outcry that need to repeal these changes, because the time investment is still far too high in general... I can't fathom how you could think there could be little else they can even do, they can literally do any of the things they've already done, adding more multipliers, increasing campaign duration or multiplier, or, literally anything to raise the amount of cp gained... there's a multitude of things they could do.

During campaigns I can hit max CP per kill, any more buffs would negate an entire campaign for them, and one that likely focuses the attention of a large number of their players, so not one they'd want to replace.

I'll be doing my RNG for giggles soon, so I can get back to how fast/slow the grind truly is later. But I've got a couple new characters playing with me lately and I know the COR hit 100 JP simply through doing content/missions/farming some torques/killing bosses with me. Not a single Apex party at all, or even much focus on it, doesn't have kupofried or the clock either. I did all my jobs the terribly slow way when they first came out and now my main jobs are capped with 500/500. I like that Capacity points per kill stop showing when you're capped.

[Selindrile]

Apex parties are an ilvl version of how this entire game used to be for the first few years of its existence. People clamored for a return to that style of play and SE answered with Apex creatures. Did you not play this game before Abyssea or something? Because a 6-man group slowly farming one mob at a time was practically THE ENTIRE GAME from 2003 until 2009ish.

I'm starting to wonder why I keep replying at this point, I also clearly stated I've been playing since US release in another post in this thread. While the 6-man exp group was far more central then, that's not the game of today, and it was not 'practically the entire game' even then, though admittedly, it was a lot more dominant, sure.


During campaigns I can hit max CP per kill, any more buffs would negate an entire campaign for them, and one that likely focuses the attention of a large number of their players, so not one they'd want to replace.

Again, as I said, I have 4 master jobs, I'm aware of how it works, more buffs would allow you to hit cap faster, make the campaign less needful to do any job pointing as it is for most of the population, allow people to target more camps as lower targets would be more viable, etc etc etc, or they could raise the max CP per kill, any of these are possible, they don't have to do all of them, or any of them, they could raise the amount of CP gained through events, or any number of possible things, but as it stands now, the vast majority of people that I come into contact with believe CPing is too slow.

[Eaglestrike]

I'm starting to wonder why I keep replying at this point, I also clearly stated I've been playing since US release in another post in this thread. While the 6-man exp group was far more central then, that's not the game of today, and it was not 'practically the entire game' even then, though admittedly, it was a lot more dominant, sure.

"a lot more dominant"? You stopped soloing around level 10, you then utilized a 6-man party with the requirement of a tank and healer from 10-75. And not until ToAU did it become more common to utilize a melee burn than your standard configuration in merit parties (and yes, I know deco weapons and KRT parties were prevalent, they were not the most common form of merit acquisition). I started this game in Nov of 2003, in Nov of 2004 my fiancee made me quit the game, I was only level 64 at this time of quitting. I came back the next month and still took a few months to get to 75. And then I had years of merit parties like this. That style was not simply "dominant", the only thing people spent more game time doing was looking for party. As well, in ToAU even when melee burn became the "thing" to do, you were still doing the exact same thing as Apex parties, and it's plenty possible to do that exact setup in Apex parties. This too was the most common activity in the entire game aside from maybe looking for party. I'm not really sure what you were doing in the game during these eras, but your 6-man group grinding out mobs was THE thing being done by most people in the game for YEARS UPON YEARS. And now we do Apex groups...of which is a rather small chunk of the many things there are to do in the game this day.


Again, as I said, I have 4 master jobs, I'm aware of how it works, more buffs would allow you to hit cap faster, make the campaign less needful to do any job pointing as it is for most of the population, allow people to target more camps as lower targets would be more viable, etc etc etc, or they could raise the max CP per kill, any of these are possible, they don't have to do all of them, or any of them, they could raise the amount of CP gained through events, or any number of possible things, but as it stands now, the vast majority of people that I come into contact with believe CPing is too slow.

I'd consider there to be upwards of 20 current usable camps for Apex CP, I doubt we're filling that out too often. Just because one zone fills up doesn't mean they're all filled up.

People are welcome to believe that CPing is too slow, of which I know numerous people who don't believe that for a second. The premise of this thread, though, is whether it is against the foundation of this game, and that is completely incorrect. In the old days "good" exp was around 4k an hour, and it was 72 merits to max an attribute, which means it was 180 hours just to get yourself dex+8. If you can get more than 12 JP an hour, you'd be able to master a job in less time than you could max a single attribute at 75. And I can do more than 12 JP an hour farming torques or just clearing mosquitoes for merits/RoE's.

[Selindrile]

Because a 6-man group slowly farming one mob at a time was practically THE ENTIRE GAME from 2003 until 2009ish.

I'm not really sure what you were doing in the game during these eras,

Camping NMs, Questing, Travelling, Farming areas for Gil, Dynamis, Farming for Sky, later on Sea, HNM, doing missions, things like Optical hat, Carby Mitts, etc etc.. I'm not saying partying wasn't the most important, or even the most frequent activity, but you made it sound like it was more than half the game, I'd disagree there, but I'll cede that it's probably the activity that you did more than any other single activity, and for what it's worth I never said I agreed with the thread that CPing was against the foundation of the game, not that I would care if it were, things change.


People are welcome to believe that CPing is too slow, of which I know numerous people who don't believe that for a second.

This is the only reason I'm here, to debate this point, at the end of the day, the Dev team is trying to maintain the highest customer base, you do that by pleasing the most people, yes, while not running them out of content, obviously they can't make CPing so fast that you complete it quickly, but I daresay you could easily double the rate permanently, and that wouldn't happen, yet a lot more people would be incentivized to play, it would be easy to tell where the community stands if they called for a vote of some sort, but I highly suspect that they would be in my camp, not yours.

[Zeldar]

How about you stop wasting your time crying about CP being to slow and go, oh I don't know , START A CP PARTY!!!!!

[Selindrile]

Because I find the rate too slow, I only CP with the double event on, even then it's too slow, but, still /shrug, I have my 4 main jobs capped already, and Pld JP suck anyway, so... no, as things are, I'll wait on other jobs.

[Stompa]

I realize you edited out the "What's The Big Hurry" probably for fear of sounding rude but it's a fair question.

"The big hurry" for a lot of players is the desire to participate in content. I can see both sides of the argument, having mastered a few jobs and seemingly never able to master others due to time. Mastering a job gives you gifts that, in regards to the core purpose of your job, raises your level a little bit and that's not even touching on what the categories do. Some categories and gifts are way more potent than "a few levels", some are way less. This disparity is not spread evenly across jobs.

Take SCH for instance: It's capacity to skillchain, which is often used in the game, is not nearly as strong until the SCH reaches 550 JP. More than 25% of the way through the 'grind'. BLU's 20 Blue Magic Points category and 100/1200 literally redefine what the job is capable of.


It wasn't "for fear of sounding rude" it is just that I work in an office and I write bulletpoint reports, I type them very fast. Sometime I will back-edit things if I feel I have made points that are not relevant or useful. It is hard to break this habit when I post online, because I am professionally hard-wired to write analytical reports at high speed.

This skill is particularly useless when people are unwilling to take on board opposing views. I write reports based on known facts and empirical evidence. I have no actual agenda, and so I will often back-edit things if I realise I'm posting in a purely agenda-driven environment.

My point on Jobpoints, is that they can never be slow enough for me, because I love to play my favourite job. I really enjoy it. And that Jobmaster was originally intended to be for your main job, there was never any suggestion that a player should be Jobmaster on every job. If people want to do that, its cool and I admire their spirit. But for me, Jobmaster was my way of saying this is my main job. I got hundreds of Jobpoints on other lesser jobs, and while I love those jobs too, they're not my main - which is why I didn't work overtime to Jobmaster them.

I'm surprised how contentious Jobpoints have been, I would have preferred slower CAP gain-rates, and higher tiers of Jobpoints post-2100. That would have been my preference, because I like long-term specialised progress.

[Selindrile]

Stompa, I can appreciate your view, and your last post on the matter, though I obviously have very different preferences from yours in respect to job points. I thought your view in your last post was well stated and well-explained.

[Olor]

Different people are here for different reasons, my way of having fun is no less legitimate than yours.

All we can do, as a community, is put forth our ideas and our likes and dislikes, it's senseless to bash other people's ways of having fun or reasons they're playing the game.

I'm not having fun if I feel like progression is too slow.
I dislike storylines and cutscenes.

But I have never told anyone else that they need to skip cutscenes or storyline or that they have to do things my way to enjoy FFXI.

Thanks. This.

I like final fantasy for the battles. Running around five shotting story bosses from 7 years ago after doing 5 hours of cut scenes is not fun.

You can't *not count* the grind of getting the bonuses as part of the CP grind.

I know a lot of people LOVE the missions. I liked RoV, at least it was mostly relevant content. I might like other missions if I didn't get lost so much or find it annoying to deal with getting around (stuff like the paintbrush door etc, are just annoying). But I do get lost and I do find it annoying.

Anyway! Doing missions often makes me want to quit the game. I haven't played more than an hour at a time since beating RoV because it made me so irritated at the game (mostly the part where I was doing adoulin missions... specifically, getting motion sick searching for a harvest point in yorcia weild)

I am okay not getting the mission specific rewards for not completing missions (I am missing out on a sweet adoulin ring currently) but locking CP gains behind them just puts newer players/returning players/players who don't love spending hours doing nothing but clicking on random points and getting a video for their effort... at a huge disadvantage. But honestly, whatever. They put the bonuses there, and I am working on the missions but I have to take breaks from it because it literally kills my will to play the game.

Most players tut tutting me for not doing the missions did them back when they were relevant. Y'all probably did them with friends. I did the last half of zilart with friends and I enjoyed myself - but it was mostly because I didn't have to spend 3 hours getting extremely irritated trying to find my way around.

Anyway, even if I finished the missions and my CP was doubled at this point it would be to slow because I find solo grinding trash mobs to be extremely boring. Except for campaign, which I inexplicably like. But it rewards zero CP, of course.

If they substantially increased CP gain from doing actual content, I wouldn't have such a problem with them, but needing to go out of my way to kill trash for points is a real bummer. I don't get a lot of play time, so I generally do some ambuscade and whatever interesting campaign if there is one that I can get a group for or solo... I don't have a lot of time to agonizingly grind trash mobs until my eyes bleed. And if I am going to grind trash mobs I'd rather be leveling up a job I am working on.

[Eaglestrike]

So I just talked to people in my LS, who are made up of some new friends I've made that restarted with new characters recently.

My WHM friend, who has had her character for 34 days and not joined a single apex party, just has JP from clearing Escha bosses, UNM's, torque/merit farming and Sinister Reign, has 143 JP. She doesn't have kupofried, the vana'clock, trizek rings, etc. She has 143 JP from simply doing content.

One of my friends made a GEO mule, has barely worked on it and was started after the above WHM friend was already 99 and semi-geared, it doesn't have a cape or belt last I checked. It has 50 JP. Just from clearing content.

In most cases, JP's will not make or break you, they are not game changing (aside from rare cases of BLU's 1200 and such) and do not need to be completed immediately. So if you're not a fan of grinding, don't. Just use the job, it'll get JP as you go.

[Selindrile]

In my LS, 15/15 people who responded to my question responded they would like Job pointing to be faster, most responded with "they should just make the double campaign permanent". And in more cases than just Blu, JP makes the difference between being allowed to do content, and not, Blm, Sch, Bst, Smn all hop into mind at least. But at the end of the day all that really matters is that increasing the CP rate would make the most people happy, but not make it so fast that people run out of content.

[Eaglestrike]

"like it to be faster". I imagine most people would also like gil to be easier to get, and aeonics easier to acquire, and ambuscade to be more hallmarks per, and coalitions to be easier to cap, etc. etc.

That has little bearing in how a game should be balanced. Only time that matters in balancing content is if you'll lose subs going one direction or the other. They're more likely to lose subs because everyone hits master jobs than people have to grind a little more to get those master jobs.

On the other hand I'm about ready to quit because of the grind they added to ambuscade with the dyes, that's something that I'd consider worthy of a change.

[Olor]

So I just talked to people in my LS, who are made up of some new friends I've made that restarted with new characters recently.

My WHM friend, who has had her character for 34 days and not joined a single apex party, just has JP from clearing Escha bosses, UNM's, torque/merit farming and Sinister Reign, has 143 JP. She doesn't have kupofried, the vana'clock, trizek rings, etc. She has 143 JP from simply doing content.

One of my friends made a GEO mule, has barely worked on it and was started after the above WHM friend was already 99 and semi-geared, it doesn't have a cape or belt last I checked. It has 50 JP. Just from clearing content.

In most cases, JP's will not make or break you, they are not game changing (aside from rare cases of BLU's 1200 and such) and do not need to be completed immediately. So if you're not a fan of grinding, don't. Just use the job, it'll get JP as you go.

143/1200 is not actually very much. Nor is 50. They each would have had to do a LOT of content for that too.

And both those are jobs that are likely to get invites to group content without the best gear and job points because GEO is good regardless and a decent whm with OK gear is invite worthy regardless.

Anyway, I never said it was impossible to get job points from content, just that I'd like to see it increased. I should be able to get decent JP while I am grinding ambuscade, for example. That's really the only change I'd really like to see. I just want to be able to get more job points actually playing interesting and relevant content. Even if it was still less efficient than parties, it would be really appreciated.

And my main job is BLU, so yeah, it is a big deal not to have them. It's one of the reasons why I solo all the time, that and my gear needs a lot of work. I also enjoy soloing, so it is no biggie, but I miss doing more party stuff. I miss the abyssea/voidwatch era where there wasn't such huge gaps between people at endgame. I mean, yes, REM DD were better but there were at least some options (some magians etc) that helped even that out... and content like voidwatch had roles for folks without the best gear (proccing) and overall the gear gap was not as big as the game between characters now.

I am glad folks in my shell like to try ambuscade in groups at lower levels at least, since I feel like I can contribute there.

[Selindrile]

"like it to be faster". I imagine most people would also like gil to be easier to get, and aeonics easier to acquire, and ambuscade to be more hallmarks per, and coalitions to be easier to cap, etc. etc.

Gil doesn't work here, because it's a see-saw, when it's more easier for one person to get, it's easier for everyone, and thus inflation rebalances the economy, gil could be easier, or harder to obtain, and with the exception of the few things we purchase from NPCs, it doesn't make much of a difference.


On the other hand I'm about ready to quit because of the grind they added to ambuscade with the dyes, that's something that I'd consider worthy of a change.

Thank you for making my point for me, all that matters at the end of the day is how the grind affects the playerbase, if there's not enough grind, people quit because they feel they have nothing to do, if it's too high, people quit because they feel their options are not worth the effort. I would definitely disagree that with doubling the CP gain that they'd lose more people due to capping out rather than how much they lose now for feelings of futility, but regardless, at the end of the day, all we can do is try to find the optimal spot on the sliding scale.

Myself, I don't really mind the ambuscade grind, it's the only thing I'm really doing in game each month, I pretty much play 2 weeks, then don't play two weeks... sad but true. I'd play a lot more, and be more incentivized to stick around and be more invested if superweapons were easier to build, or job points easier to obtain, but at this point, it definitely doesn't feel that way, if after this upcoming month the ambuscade rewards just cycle back around, I will likely cancel for a while, and return when there are more things that feel like worthwhile grinds to me, rather than too much effort for too little reward, though yes, that's different for each person.

[Castanica]

Honestly, now that this game will be getting almost no new content going forward they need to engage people to master more than 1-3 jobs.

The next year will see large drops in numbers with ambuscade rotations being the only new things added and JP acquisition being such a boring and unrewarding grind.

[detlef]

Ambuscade grind is real. And for a lot of people, CP grind is real. They both can be legitimate.

[Zeldar]

Why do you say Ambuscade is the only new content we will get Castinica? Yes, they have stated we aren't getting any more expansions, but when did they say they aren't adding any new battle content? They added ambuscade AFTER the announcement that there would be no more big updates, so whats to stop them from adding more battle content? And completely off topic, but someone joked that you were just trolling and didn't even play FF11, but I'm starting to believe it. Your character doesn't even exist in the database.....what gives? And Eaglestrike has a great point... there are many things the playerbase would LIKE to be easier, but that doesn't mean its the best way to spend developer time. I know a lot of friends that left this game years ago when they made the game so much easier. We always said "if you want FF11 on easy mode, go play Wow" and called it "the WoWification of FF." I'm sure there is a percentage of the playerbase that agrees with you and wants things made easier. I am also sure there is a large percentage of the community that appreciates a game with challenge.

[Zeldar]

I am also boggled that a few of you think your jobs aren't usable or acceptable without job points. Thats just silly. I have NEVER joined a pickup group and been asked "how many JP do you have ?" or "do you have the 100,500,1200 jp gift?" I think some people are exhaggerating to get their point across. I don't blame you: we all do it, but I am calling you out on it. JP are not necessary for any job to be acceptable. Saying they are is like saying "GEO isn't relevant unless it has Idris!"

[Immortta]

It's someone whos character name was Valli, judging by the tone of his posts.

[Olor]

I am also boggled that a few of you think your jobs aren't usable or acceptable without job points. Thats just silly. I have NEVER joined a pickup group and been asked "how many JP do you have ?" or "do you have the 100,500,1200 jp gift?" I think some people are exhaggerating to get their point across. I don't blame you: we all do it, but I am calling you out on it. JP are not necessary for any job to be acceptable. Saying they are is like saying "GEO isn't relevant unless it has Idris!"

on Asura shouts regularly include a JP requirement. And several of my LS mates have discussed being kicked from parties for not having enough JP (often these are CP parties, ironically...)

[Zeldar]

I have never seen that on Sylph. Maybe they are trying to weed out the players that aren't as dedicated to the job, I don't know. It seems stupid to me. I have 61 JP on GEO, had 11 when I joined the CP shout yesterday. I bursted with tier4 then 3 and still out-damaged the BLMS and SCH. Not saying anything about their gear or ability, just saying that JPs don't make you better at your job. Gear and knowledge have more to do with it than anything.

[Castanica]

And completely off topic, but someone joked that you were just trolling and didn't even play FF11, but I'm starting to believe it. Your character doesn't even exist in the database.....what gives?

You can't even post here unless you're subscribed, if you run-over the people in charge of the forum turn off your access pretty quick now.

Also why are you even checking on me in "the database" , that's creepy! No, I will not date your avatar!

[Zeldar]

LMAO.. ok I deserved that !

[detlef]

I have never seen that on Sylph. Maybe they are trying to weed out the players that aren't as dedicated to the job, I don't know. It seems stupid to me. I have 61 JP on GEO, had 11 when I joined the CP shout yesterday. I bursted with tier4 then 3 and still out-damaged the BLMS and SCH. Not saying anything about their gear or ability, just saying that JPs don't make you better at your job. Gear and knowledge have more to do with it than anything.It's very true that gear and knowledge will get you by. But what I'm getting from your story is more that you don't have to have gear or ability because either you can be carried by the rest of your PT or your PT setup is strong enough that you can still make progress even with 1-2 anchors. There is really no excuse for a BLM to be outparsed by a GEO.

[Eaglestrike]

Ambuscade grind is real. And for a lot of people, CP grind is real. They both can be legitimate.

Thing is there's no time limit on CP grind. You get it while playing the job in almost all content. It's a constant journey with a set end point but no time frame on it. Ambuscade you must do every month, it has strict limitations on the reward system that push you towards completion every single month. The dyes just expanded this grind majorly as you must obtain 20000 total hallmarks just to re-cap a single cape per month now. To get to 20100 you need to do 67 Ambuscade regular on VD (and many more if you're not capable of VD, which someone with low CP might be because of other gear lacking requirements). It often takes around 10min for a fight and reacquisition of the KI. So it takes around 11 hours to cap ambuscade now, every month. And that's assuming you can do VD, easily, with no time spent seeking party. You can get a significant chunk of JP in that time frame. Except the JP finishes after a bit, whereas Ambuscade resets and says "do it again!" every single month. and the dye now makes there to be no end in sight in regards to it.

The Ambuscade grind is FAR more significant than the JP grind.

[Zeldar]

It's very true that gear and knowledge will get you by. But what I'm getting from your story is more that you don't have to have gear or ability because either you can be carried by the rest of your PT or your PT setup is strong enough that you can still make progress even with 1-2 anchors. There is really no excuse for a BLM to be outparsed by a GEO.

My point is who was the anchor in this party? The GEO with almost no JP at all. My gear and knowledge that allowed me to double burst and out damage the BLMs is what got me through, not the amount of JPs I had.

[detlef]

Thing is there's no time limit on CP grind. You get it while playing the job in almost all content. It's a constant journey with a set end point but no time frame on it. Ambuscade you must do every month, it has strict limitations on the reward system that push you towards completion every single month. The dyes just expanded this grind majorly as you must obtain 20000 total hallmarks just to re-cap a single cape per month now. To get to 20100 you need to do 67 Ambuscade regular on VD (and many more if you're not capable of VD, which someone with low CP might be because of other gear lacking requirements). It often takes around 10min for a fight and reacquisition of the KI. So it takes around 11 hours to cap ambuscade now, every month. And that's assuming you can do VD, easily, with no time spent seeking party. You can get a significant chunk of JP in that time frame. Except the JP finishes after a bit, whereas Ambuscade resets and says "do it again!" every single month. and the dye now makes there to be no end in sight in regards to it.

The Ambuscade grind is FAR more significant than the JP grind.In theory you never have to force yourself to make 3 capes a month nor do you have to force yourself to farm +1 bodies either. There’s no time limit there either, since at the very least, you should see the current month’s set again in less than 5 months. Even if that is true though, I feel compelled to farm hallmarks as you do with the intent of completing the +1 set every month and maxing out as many capes as possible, even though I know I could wait if I really wanted to.

Likewise, even though there’s no absolute time limit on the CP grind, maybe your group needs Death BLMs right now. Or a JPed SCH right now. I think that having no time frame on it would be truer if it wasn’t actually making your character stronger and in some cases significantly stronger. If you’re going to argue that content is beatable without these things, yes that is true. But for a lot groups every little bit helps and you should hopefully understand why some players can feel like time is a factor even in something that doesn’t have a hard time limit.

I mean, we could argue all day about the degrees of grindiness. But why must it be so? Why can't they both be grindy? Is it really important that Ambuscade is more of a grind in your opinion?


My point is who was the anchor in this party? The GEO with almost no JP at all. My gear and knowledge that allowed me to double burst and out damage the BLMs is what got me through, not the amount of JPs I had.It’s hard to imagine any situation where a Dunna GEO would drag the rest of the PT down. The job is that strong. I think we are actually on the same page here. In your eyes, you were outperforming your nuking peers by paying attention and double MBing. I’m just saying that they were probably also bad and were being carried. The follow-up point is that it's a job like SCH, BLM, or GEO are so desirable for these Apex setups that you can essentially be bad and still gain acceptable CP/hour. I'd wager that many of the people who complain about CP play would like CP on sub-optimal jobs.

[Olor]

Yeah, I am sure if I played GEO then I wouldn't have trouble finding a party because even without JP, GEO is very good and it has a lower gear threshold for being a contributing member than say, a DD would. You're not necessarily going to be *good* but you're going to add something.

[OmnysValefor]

Yes, GEO, healers and tanks* are easy to get into CP. GEO has the bonus of easily obtained 109 gear. If you can nuke, even better.

Tanks don't NEED the acc to hit, but even better if they can.

[Afania]

I am also boggled that a few of you think your jobs aren't usable or acceptable without job points. Thats just silly. I have NEVER joined a pickup group and been asked "how many JP do you have ?" or "do you have the 100,500,1200 jp gift?" I think some people are exhaggerating to get their point across. I don't blame you: we all do it, but I am calling you out on it. JP are not necessary for any job to be acceptable. Saying they are is like saying "GEO isn't relevant unless it has Idris!"


That's because most of the pick up group do easyyyyyy stuff like SR, ambuscade or T1.

If you do harder content is totally other story, I've never seen endgame LS recruit jobs without JP, at bare minimum WHM may be acceptable without JP, even then I think bar spell category should have JP at least.

Personally I never bring jobs to content lv 150+ without JP either, the performance just couldn't keep up and it makes everyone in the pt life hard.

[Eaglestrike]

That's because most of the pick up group do easyyyyyy stuff like SR, ambuscade or T1.

If you do harder content is totally other story, I've never seen endgame LS recruit jobs without JP, at bare minimum WHM may be acceptable without JP, even then I think bar spell category should have JP at least.

Personally I never bring jobs to content lv 150+ without JP either, the performance just couldn't keep up and it makes everyone in the pt life hard.

...content level 150+? That's less than 10 mobs in the entire game.

[Eaglestrike]

Yeah, I am sure if I played GEO then I wouldn't have trouble finding a party because even without JP, GEO is very good and it has a lower gear threshold for being a contributing member than say, a DD would. You're not necessarily going to be *good* but you're going to add something.

Which is why in 99% of all returning threads where people go "What job should I do first to get into endgame?" it's almost entirely people saying GEO. Choose a support job to start things off, acquire the gear for your other jobs, and then you'll have a much more solid base for getting into things as a DD. This has nothing to do with how SE makes the game, this is a feature of any type of game. You're not going to join up and beat the DD's that have top notch gear, so you just have to deal with either playing support or slowly getting a DD together the hard way.

[OmnysValefor]

This has nothing to do with how SE makes the game, this is a feature of any type of game.

In my experience this is pretty unique to FFXI, actually. In games where your gear is obseleted every raid-tier, the struggle was pretty evenly spread. In WoW for instance, the potency of "refresh/auto-refresh" (closes equivalent to XI) was a percentage of your MP so it was really hard to carry undergeared people through content that was hard for your group, whereas the same isn't true in XI. If the WHM isn't in danger of taking damage, you can take an abyssea geared whm to many things.

Example: My first Sovereign Behemoth was in a BST burn with a Aby-geared WHM. Two NQ GEO. She took the full weight of every meteor but we had NP winning. Couldn't have carried a tank or damage-source in her level of gear.

Now, if your group performed sufficiently well enough, you could carry somone on any job (essentially 9man a 10man or 23man/24man a 25man). But WoW didn't (and surely still doesn't) have any case of needing any piece of gear from 4 expansions ago, usually not even 2 content-patches ago.

[Afania]

...content level 150+? That's less than 10 mobs in the entire game.

It doesn't matter if it's 1 mob or 10 mobs, people are saying JPless job still gets invite which just isn't true for many people. Also death is still kinda required for some Reisen T3 effective kills, and that needs 1200 JP.

[Zeldar]

What you guys need, in all seriousness, is a good linkshell. Linkshells care whether or not you have JP, sure. Instead of excluding you from content though, a good linkshell helps you get the JP you or they feel you need. Until you get to that point, they will adjust. If pickup groups are as brutally picky on your servers as you claim they are, just find a good linkshell. Oh wait, next you'll say that the good linkshells on your server aren't recruiting unless you have job master status..........

[vienne]

ic alot of linkshells with good intentions on Asura, but the social feel of this game/or is it the server, has shifted alot. Its hard to keep new people intrested throughout the grind, and those who have the gear and JP needed to help with harder content, those go and look for an endgame shell. I've seen alot of ls leaders who really want to help people but in the end they also get bored of it, as in being one of the few in the ls that actually helps all those people in need of a hand.
It feels like alot of people want to be carried and they're all in a hurry. I just take a step back from time to time and tell myself i'm not in a hurry.

[Castanica]

10 years ago only scummy, horrible botting shells were mercs. Now people merc everything, from job points, clears and gear. They don't want to help others, they like others can't do these things.

It's in these geared players interested that you can't get any of these things and are reliant on them to progress, problem is that's not sustainable and at a point people just quit. All that money you made to get all those weapons will be gone when they shut down the servers.

[Diavolo]

10 years ago only scummy, horrible botting shells were mercs. Now people merc everything, from job points, clears and gear. They don't want to help others, they like others can't do these things.

Capitalism, it's a hell of a drug.

[Eaglestrike]

In my experience this is pretty unique to FFXI, actually. In games where your gear is obseleted every raid-tier, the struggle was pretty evenly spread. In WoW for instance, the potency of "refresh/auto-refresh" (closes equivalent to XI) was a percentage of your MP so it was really hard to carry undergeared people through content that was hard for your group, whereas the same isn't true in XI. If the WHM isn't in danger of taking damage, you can take an abyssea geared whm to many things.

Example: My first Sovereign Behemoth was in a BST burn with a Aby-geared WHM. Two NQ GEO. She took the full weight of every meteor but we had NP winning. Couldn't have carried a tank or damage-source in her level of gear.

Now, if your group performed sufficiently well enough, you could carry somone on any job (essentially 9man a 10man or 23man/24man a 25man). But WoW didn't (and surely still doesn't) have any case of needing any piece of gear from 4 expansions ago, usually not even 2 content-patches ago.

What I was saying is a feature of any MMO is if you have a Sunwell Plateau geared rogue you're going to take it over the Karazhan geared rogue. There are so many people that can toss together a very well geared DD that you're not going to get too far starting off as a DD.

[Olor]

Which is why in 99% of all returning threads where people go "What job should I do first to get into endgame?" it's almost entirely people saying GEO. Choose a support job to start things off, acquire the gear for your other jobs, and then you'll have a much more solid base for getting into things as a DD. This has nothing to do with how SE makes the game, this is a feature of any type of game. You're not going to join up and beat the DD's that have top notch gear, so you just have to deal with either playing support or slowly getting a DD together the hard way.

I did that with BRD and then it was obseleted. I put a lot of work into it too.

I'd totally level GEO but the bubble animation makes me nauseated. I've tried, it makes me sick. It isn't a big deal when I am not the GEO (for some reason) but even leveling I felt ill. At any rate, I play so little right now I'd really just rather play a job I enjoy. Even if it means all I do is solo.

[Zeldar]

I'm with Olor: that bubble animation makes me sick as well. Too bad my ls wants me to play geo all the time....lol. The bubbles also slow my game down considerably... I lag so much with a geo in my party. The only other time I experience this is in Sea. I know they made the bubbles a little less obnoxious. I just wish there was a way to turn the bubble animation off entirely.

[OmnysValefor]

The large bubble is bad enough. The core of the luopons is the worst, especially when there's multiple stacked on a small mob, like Humans in Sinister Reign.

[monodjo]

Are they ever bringing back Trizek Ring ? Kind of sad being left behind because of the ring. How are returning players suppose to catch up ? Honestly makes you not want to play the game.

[Zeldar]

LOL mono... thats 3 posts I have read in 3 minutes where you ask for the same thing.......

[Olor]

They will probably give out red mog pells at some point, they seem to do it a couple times a year. You can trade them in for trizek. Otherwise you're gonna have to wait till the next adventurer appreciation campaign in spring 2017.

[IBHalliwell]

>> Job points are a good idea in principle but in reality they have pretty much
>> killed the "you can use any job on your char" idea. Now you have a main
>> job and that's it.

>> Job points are such an extreme grind and are so important now to playing
>>this game that you can only really use 1-2 jobs anymore. The rest are scrub jobs.

I must disagree. I have eight (8) mastered jobs:

WHM - working on mythic
BLM
BST
DRG - relic & Aeonic
SAM - relic GK, bow, and Aeonic
SMN - mythic
GEO - "mythic"
RUN - "mythic" - working on Aeonic

As you see, six (6) jobs have REMA weapons. All jobs have purpose in the game either in end-game adventuring or making gil.

As for other jobs being "scrub" jobs, I disagree. The jobs I have not yet gotten to 99 and/or mastered are still important -- such as BLU or COR. These jobs, though, weren't on my first list, but will get on the list as I have more time to play the game.

Additionally, being able to use 10K JP to start augmenting REMA weapons is another good use of Job Points.

Just FYI: I've been playing since March 2004 (NA PS2 release).

[Alhanelem]

>> Job points are a good idea in principle but in reality they have pretty much
>> killed the "you can use any job on your char" idea. Now you have a main
>> job and that's it.Thing is, this was never really a thing because if you didn't have the best gear for your job (or close enough to it) you couldn't use that job. Some jobs just couldn't be used at all because an efficiency minded endgame players wouldn't allow anything that wasn't the bestest and the fastest, regardless of whether the content can be cleared with it.

Job points have enabled more jobs to be used more freely since literally every job becomes more independently capable, even if the demand for it in a group is still low. And some jobs have innate utility that transcends the job point system and will always be useful in some way. They also add an almost iincrimental-game (e.g. clicker heroes, afk arena, adventure captialist) sugar rush whenever you get enough points to unlock the next gift. Until you master, there's continually more things to keep shooting for.

[Cdryik]

When there's a double exp campaign people tend to shout more often for a CP Party, i think Double Exp should come more often too, like every week-end.

For now, and i talk about Asura serveur, CP/hour isn't really good to enjoy and ppl prefer to get the Mercenary that use Bot to EXP their CP.
SE should totally tackle thoses Party Bot, and let's everyone enjoying CP pty.

[Alhanelem]

When there's a double exp campaign people tend to shout more often for a CP Party, i think Double Exp should come more often too, like every week-end.

For now, and i talk about Asura serveur, CP/hour isn't really good to enjoy and ppl prefer to get the Mercenary that use Bot to EXP their CP.
SE should totally tackle thoses Party Bot, and let's everyone enjoying CP pty.This is something that would have played out far better if server populations stayed balanced, instead of stacking on asura resulting in it being hard to find camps, where ohter servers you can cp wherever you want most of the time.

[Seriha]

People with multiple JP capped jobs probably shouldn't be considering themselves amongst the normal populace. Sure, the system has been around for a while now, but that doesn't really diminish the fact that it is still a grind, that job discrimination still happens, grinding outside of double CP events is more difficult (particularly on not-Asura), and that not everyone has been playing non-stop since implementation. If anything, 2x CP probably needs to be something that's permanently unlocked once you complete all expansions/missions.

[Lockhart]

People with multiple JP capped jobs probably shouldn't be considering themselves amongst the normal populace. Sure, the system has been around for a while now, but that doesn't really diminish the fact that it is still a grind, that job discrimination still happens, grinding outside of double CP events is more difficult (particularly on not-Asura), and that not everyone has been playing non-stop since implementation. If anything, 2x CP probably needs to be something that's permanently unlocked once you complete all expansions/missions.

I really think the grind has been a part of this game since the beginning. I solo'd most of my CP on Asura with linkshell mates joining me for the rest. My linkshell doesn't have any job point requirements for content bring whatever job you want to play. Side note, I think its harder to CP on asura because of all the competition for mobs, I honestly would transfer if it was not for my friends in my linkshell.

[Beastorizer]

Double EXP plus should occur once every month for 9 days. The first Tuesday of every month.

All I do is casually level now. I have no interest in being "The best" this time around. I am just taking it all in......

Played the game since 2004-ish, and 2019-2020 is the only time I really touched several jobs......Crazy....

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

The event "bonus" is a gimmick. Far too many players have become complacent to wait for a "bonus" event to do any corresponding activity, including the { Chain Experience Bonus Points Campaign }.

The idea of attaching limited time occurring bonuses to content is made policy to converge players' pursuit of a 'worthy' effort.
As it relates to specific item acquisition endeavors, it does allow unappealing battles to have a somewhat attractive reward for duration of the bonus.

The fallout is while the "bonus campaigns" are active anything that is not receiving a bonus becomes unappealing. With the concentrated attention placed into limited "bonus" enticements, the environment appears less empty.

People will be on different sides of the fence depending on circumstances within population sizes and various activity levels. I acknowledge that. Even so, I believe that any "campaign" or "bonus" associated with experience points should be handled VERY differently.

Terminate the benefit as it has recently appeared. In place, activate a limited time challenge for something that can be accomplished by new, seasoned and veteran characters. Use { https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Lure_of_the_Wildcat } as an example. It's such a good example could just layer on top of the original with new dialogue.

Reward the accomplishment with an additional https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Rhapsody_Key_Item ( RoV Key Item ). Call it whatever you like, Kupofried, a new color, whatever. The effect would be a flat +20% XP/CP full time bonus as a permanent key item. The "campaign" could be activated every other month, every 3rd month, however FFXI team at SE would determine.

[Dragoy]

Until very recently, I never really went for job points, but now I do have one "mastered", and a couple of others hanging at around 200-500 points (those I didn't really work for seriously).

However, I kind of started working towards 10,000 job points to give to Oboro due to my Mythic weapon (at around 7000 to go now), and that certainly makes me miss the double/triple campaign at the moment. :]

I can get around 50-60 job points per hour, alone with Trust Magic, so doubling that makes for a quite doable 700 points per week (the maximum I don't exactly agree with; it could probably be removed altogether with no ill effect). That is of course when a party with a summoner doesn't pull the whole huge room at D'oh Gates... /sigh. Fortunately that doesn't happen too often, at least not during non-double/triple campaign times.

On Fenrir I find my usual spots unoccupied quite often, even during them bonus times, somewhat depending on the time of day and/or night.

I'm not sure I would want for the double/triple times to be permanent. I guess there is a part in me that likes the grind. I guess I wouldn't have made a Mythic weapon if I didn't, but it got pretty doable in recent years, even for me, so I figured why not go for it. I know other long-time players (that may come and go from time to time) that do like the grind. Things certainly wouldn't be the same without the grind. I think we need the grind. I'll stop typing grind now.

Once per month could be nice. Probably at most once per month, during some period of days. Would not even need to be double/triple times. Would probably support such a topic.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

The concept i was specifically describing removes the detrimental concerns that surround the capacity point campaigns being active and inactive.
It honestly would be for the best.
The bonus gets established with a key item, and going forward it would be up full-time.
Granted there would not be a 100%+ per kill dopamine gratification, over-all for the community the full-time increase from a key item would be MUCH better.
This is due to the effect never being lost once obtained.

Scheduling up-times for any sort of bonus should be completely off-limits if said scheduling doesn't blanket an entire month between ver updates.
No Dev team should ever, ever, ever schedule a bonus interval schedule resembling what @beastorizer suggests.

[Solonuke]

I see players with bot behavior very often in the Gates areas. All of them turn directly to a monster then engage. You have two types of bots:

a) A group stacked on top of each other where they have one or two pullers.
b) Solo players that always jumps to the closest unclaimed mob no matter what.

You could try claiming a monster, then disengage. If it's a bot it will continue to attack the mob you claimed previously, but because you have enmity on it the bot will keep attacking it. A solo player that bots will run over to your unclaimed target and attack it if it's the closest mob. You can run away with the unclaimed target and the bot will follow you! You can drag that player through the entire map if you wanted to, as long as you have enmity and are moving continuously the bot will not stop chasing its target. If you move too far, the bot will disengage and claim a different monster instead. If you repeat the procedure, you can have them chasing after you.

The bot behavior differs from time to time, the bottom line is it's depressing knowing there are bot players out there that don't have to do any work for the reward. Maybe we could use "Goblin Bounty Hunters", but for Gates areas?

[Alhanelem]

I see players with bot behavior very often in the Gates areas. All of them turn directly to a monster then engage. You have two types of bots:

a) A group stacked on top of each other where they have one or two pullers.
b) Solo players that always jumps to the closest unclaimed mob no matter what.

You could try claiming a monster, then disengage. If it's a bot it will continue to attack the mob you claimed previously, but because you have enmity on it the bot will keep attacking it. A solo player that bots will run over to your unclaimed target and attack it if it's the closest mob. You can run away with the unclaimed target and the bot will follow you! You can drag that player through the entire map if you wanted to, as long as you have enmity and are moving continuously the bot will not stop chasing its target. If you move too far, the bot will disengage and claim a different monster instead. If you repeat the procedure, you can have them chasing after you.

The bot behavior differs from time to time, the bottom line is it's depressing knowing there are bot players out there that don't have to do any work for the reward. Maybe we could use "Goblin Bounty Hunters", but for Gates areas?
I'm not sure how these wouldn't either get caught up in AOEs and be ineffective or be an actual problem for actively engaged players.

Really though, you don't need any special third party programs to "bot". simple keyboard macros available on every major gaming keyboard and mouse can do this sort of thing. If they went after people AFK or semi-afk grinding XP, I sure hope they'd also be giving a lot more attention to RMT botting, which is a lot more harmful. The XP grinders aren't really hurting other people much/at all by comparison. And it's really a side effect of apex grinds not being the most challenging or interesting part of playing the game. people have been automating the things they find boring for ages lol. Some people liove these kind of grindss, some don't. I play Warriors franchise games- I can appreciate a long repetitive grind, but not everyone can lol.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Here's the issue Solonuke (Akirane) now and many of us prior have been bringing to light: corruption.

For multiple multiple millions of gil, typically billboard yelled via bots on Asura. Asking prices ranging around 10M for an invite for a 'scheduled' acquisition of 500JP. So the ToS violating seller then utilizes a bot to occupy a viable camp and place unearned JP gains onto whomever is gullible enough to agree to the payment.

Bots are continuously used not only at the Apex enemy sources, but in exploitative content including regular EXP PL, sparks rewarded NPC sales, crafting spheres and more.

So other than those who take the ethics of a "Traditionalist" who refuse to violate ToS, the large segment of economic interactions at the ilvl 119 tier is occurring between accounts violating the ToS most typically with the usage of prohibited 3rd party tools.

[Sirmarki]

Really though, you don't need any special third party programs to "bot". simple keyboard macros available on every major gaming keyboard and mouse can do this sort of thing.

This is a bit different to switching 'auto-fire' on your gamepad. This appears to be a third party semi-advanced software that people and RMT are using.


The XP grinders aren't really hurting other people much/at all by comparison.
I guess you have never had a group of them stuck together ploughing through the mobs you are soloing? There is also the problem of RMT using this method, which is why groups of them are stuck together on top of each other in the gate areas and why yell is full of them selling job points.

[Typral]

Why waste energy and time worrying about what other people are doing, when it doesn't even effect you?

[Sirmarki]

Why waste energy and time worrying about what other people are doing, when it doesn't even effect you?

Hoards of Job point sellers in Dho gates don't have affect on people? Of course they do.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

It's a colossal contamination of any environment whether it be obstruction and crowding in shared (open) areas, or value implications in the player driven psuedo-economy.
I completely agree with Sirmarki. Anyone that can't deduce these conclusions has no perception of society beyond a few feet in front of their face.

[Alhanelem]

Hoards of Job point sellers in Dho gates don't have affect on people? Of course they do.
Only really if that's the place you wanted to grind for real.

[TullemoreAsuraFFXI]

Sirmarki gives the example of Dho gates. The bot occurences go much much much further than the example of Dho gates.
Not only do ToS violations place illicit hardships concerning obstruction of camps; they are polluting and contaminating the market forces within player produced items (including crafted items) and the sale price values of anything that's not exclusively obtained from a NPC.
Even then, those price values are impacted from items that are exclusively obtained from a NPC if it is possible for said item to be exchanged between accounts due to inflation.

[Solonuke]

I'm not sure how these wouldn't either get caught up in AOEs and be ineffective or be an actual problem for actively engaged players.

There are actually safe spots in Dho Gates where you can stand for days if not months. I'm not sure if Shiva has an issue with bots, but you can find these bots everywhere on Asura. Apex Efts in Moh Gates don't aggro or link and are therefore very attractive for botters.


Really though, you don't need any special third party programs to "bot". simple keyboard macros available on every major gaming keyboard and mouse can do this sort of thing.

Regular macros as you describe wouldn't work, monsters vary in levels making it very difficult to measure exactly how long a macro should be. A bot needs information from the game to process what it should do next. The botters I've described always go to the closest mob after their mob is dead. In order to do that you need to be able to calculate X, Y and Z coordinates between you and the monster to create a vector. This vector is also used to rotate your character to face the monster.


. The XP grinders aren't really hurting other people much/at all by comparison. And it's really a side effect of apex grinds not being the most challenging or interesting part of playing the game. people have been automating the things they find boring for ages lol. Some people liove these kind of grindss, some don't. I play Warriors franchise games- I can appreciate a long repetitive grind, but not everyone can lol.

I disagree, try competing against a bot for monsters when they have inhuman precision. Bots don't get tired or fall asleep. The Apex bats I described earlier used to have players fighting for monsters and some of them didn't mind grouping up with you. Now there's a bot party there 24/7 that continuously pull bats. This bot party is very efficient, it's difficult to kill bats now because of that.

[Sirmarki]

I'm not sure if Shiva has an issue with bots, but you can find these bots everywhere on Asura.

I think this is the problem, no offence to Alhanelem, but they are talking from the perspective of a quiet server. Shiva, I would imagine has less than 10% (300ish) of the players on NA time than Asura does (3300ish). So doesn't really comprehend the situation as it shares no comparison.