Tank Trusts and Turning

[Mithlas]

Would it be possible to add the AI for trust Tanks to turn away from gaze-based attacks?
I feel like this would be a small boon. Trusts are not meant to replace players - that is completely understandable. However, even with this change they would still not replace players as trust tanks are squishier than a well-geared player.

This would help alleviate the strain during play times when no other tanks are available or wish to play with you and your party for certain content. I've rejoined FFXI late (thanks to the free login campaign), and it is incredibly difficult and time-consuming to attempt to find certain roles necessary to even do the newest content: Ambuscade.

Especially for higher tier difficulties (which players aim for anyways), Trusts are useless.

[Raydeus]

Not the optimal solution, but have you tried disengaging when the mob readies the gaze attack? I usually do that to manage positioning but it may work against those attacks while they implement something better.

Personally my request would be adding formations in a similar way to The Last Remnant (such a good game) so Trust would position themselves in preset ways when a battle started, and accepted simple commands (like "look away".)

[Mithlas]

I usually do try the disengage when that stuff happens - unfortunately sometimes that can be very bad depending on the situation due to few precious seconds you may lose from having to disengage and then re-engage.

That would actually be a lovely implementation (I agree - such a good game). However, I think that would require more coding and the developers would be more apt to a "no" as opposed to a simple turn around.

[Sicycre]

As you have mentioned, when it comes to alter egos they do not fully understand battle formations and positioning, which is their weakness.
However, the development team does not want alter egos to be the end all be all solution to content, and they'd like to see players forming parties with other players.

As such, there are no plans to address this.

[Mithlas]

As you have mentioned, when it comes to alter egos they do not fully understand battle formations and positioning, which is their weakness.
However, the development team does not want alter egos to be the end all be all solution to content, and they'd like to see players forming parties with other players.

As such, there are no plans to address this.

And what should happen as the playerbase dwindles? Or what should happen when there are simply no players online to fulfill those roles? Are we being told to pay monthly to simply wait for others to login when we have this mechanism in place?

I'm just curious as to what the development team thinks of when the only content left for people to do require other players that are, unfortunately, not there. I am not talking about end-game content - simply some of these easier or newer content ideas that are now in place.

[Immortta]

All the monsters that do gaze attacks can be soloed or at best easier with TWO real players. It shouldn't be hard to find one other person to do this with, its a MMO man...

[Mithlas]

Nah, it's pretty easy to find someone to fill a DD or support role. It's not that easy to find someone to fulfill the role of a tank though - that want to participate in said content. :/

That's my only issue. So why not level PLD or RUN myself? Oh I have - it's just a slow process until I'm able to to have the gear requirements to fill that slot, that's all.

Given today an example - people are sick of Ambuscade and I'm trying my best to complete some capes. Found a party of 5 - we looked an hour for a tank. No one was geared to handle that role. I suggested we just do it easier on normal and have August tank and I or another could spam {Cursna}. It was disagreed and disbanded.
It's not worth other players' time to do anything less than VD when they are used to spamming that with a full party - thus the content never gets done. I've settled for just some unfinished capes (I came late to the Ambuscade train due to the free campaign making me want to resub).

[Immortta]

You don't NEED a tank for Ambuscade OR the gaze type NMs (I'm assuming you mean the eye in Reisenjima?) I've done both WITHOUT any tank at all, and easily. For the eye you can use two trust tanks if you feel you aren't quick enough to turn from gaze, space them out and when one dies the other takes over and you can whack away at it. Ambuscade you don't need a tank at all, I have no clue why I see people shouting for one lol. This is on VD as well. Our typical setup is BLU BLU COR BRD WHM GEO. You could replace the COR and BRD (I'd change geo spell to wilt in that case) with two more DD and you would be perfectly fine, even replace the BLU with whatever DD. It isn't hard at all with competent players.

[Mithlas]

I'll try to persuade players to play without tanks. Thanks for the tips!

[Jile]

As you have mentioned, when it comes to alter egos they do not fully understand battle formations and positioning, which is their weakness.
However, the development team does not want alter egos to be the end all be all solution to content, and they'd like to see players forming parties with other players.

As such, there are no plans to address this.

With the player base shrinking daily, FFXI is more and more becoming a single-player game for many people. While it actually hurts to type that, that's reality in a nutshell. Unless there is going to be some unprecedented marketing campaign for a game with no new major updates in the plans to add new blood to the game... then making solo-play function effectively as the primary intent for your remaining player base is the longest player retention method available... so the lack of plans surprises me. It's nice to say we want players to team up but that's not reality.

[Raydeus]

With the player base shrinking daily, FFXI is more and more becoming a single-player game for many people. While it actually hurts to type that, that's reality in a nutshell. Unless there is going to be some unprecedented marketing campaign for a game with no new major updates in the plans to add new blood to the game... then making solo-play function effectively as the primary intent for your remaining player base is the longest player retention method available... so the lack of plans surprises me. It's nice to say we want players to team up but that's not reality.

I agree with you.

The dev team seems to be trying to refocus on making people casually team up (Ambuscade, RoV adjustments, etc.) but that is just not going to happen nowadays. Nowadays either you are still playing with a group of friends/LS or you are soloing most of the time. Old school casual grouping just isn't a thing anymore and hasn't been since the Abyssea debacle.

In my opinion what they should focus on is making QoL adjustments for the people that are still playing the game in their own ways, instead of trying to herd us all into a particular playstyle or a particular type of community (that ship's long gone mateys.) So I hope they reconsider and start accommodating people that wont party for a myriad of reasons instead of only focusing on a casual party play that just doesn't exist anymore.

[Immortta]

Actually the party play does exist, look at every server there are aeonics everywhere. You can't do those NMs solo so people are teaming up somehow to do it? Also I find it incredibly hard to believe you literally cannot find one other person in any server to do stuff with? They do need to merge servers but I disagree that they should make the entire game solo based, that would make me quit.

[Diavolo]

And what should happen as the playerbase dwindles? Or what should happen when there are simply no players online to fulfill those roles? Are we being told to pay monthly to simply wait for others to login when we have this mechanism in place?


With the player base shrinking daily, FFXI is more and more becoming a single-player game for many people. While it actually hurts to type that, that's reality in a nutshell.


Actually the party play does exist, look at every server there are aeonics everywhere. You can't do those NMs solo so people are teaming up somehow to do it? Also I find it incredibly hard to believe you literally cannot find one other person in any server to do stuff with? They do need to merge servers but I disagree that they should make the entire game solo based, that would make me quit.

Players have been making this argument for years and it's the reason I started posting here on the official forums at all - the game is in desperate need of server merges. There is absolutely no reason why we still have sixteen servers with the active population being as low as it is today.

As Sicycre pointed out, the dev team doesn't want trusts replacing actual players, thankfully. Who would spend the time partying up with other players if they could call up five trusts capable of doing everything they needed whenever they wanted? There has to be a limit to their convenience or we would all just be playing an MMORPG as if it was a single player game and I don't know about you, but that's a really undesirable idea to me.

[Sirmarki]

Actually the party play does exist, look at every server there are aeonics everywhere. You can't do those NMs solo so people are teaming up somehow to do it?

Not quite true, many many people multibox. Most peeps I've seen whom have got almost everything is because they seem to have around three of their own characters playing simultaneously.

[Raydeus]

Actually the party play does exist, look at every server there are aeonics everywhere. You can't do those NMs solo so people are teaming up somehow to do it? Also I find it incredibly hard to believe you literally cannot find one other person in any server to do stuff with? They do need to merge servers but I disagree that they should make the entire game solo based, that would make me quit.

The current situation isn't something a server merge can fix. The only thing that had any chance of doing so was the LS concierge system (http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Linkshell_Concierge), and not many Linkshells even bothered with the system, so in it's current form that ship's been long gone now. Also, I'll repost part of my previous post because it seems it didn't sink in.


Nowadays either you are still playing with a group of friends/LS or you are soloing most of the time. Old school casual grouping just isn't a thing anymore and hasn't been since the Abyssea debacle.See, I'm not talking about party play not existing, I'm talking about the "Let's make casual parties on the fly and have fun grinding together!" that happened in the game before Abyssea and that made the XI community so strong back in the day not existing anymore. Although the dev team seems to think it still exists in the game for some reason.

But right now for most players it seems to be that either:

A) You are getting your Aeonics with your LS mates. Because you have time to dedicate to a LS on a regular basis.
B) You are playing mostly on your own, doing your own stuff on your own terms. Because you have a time consuming job and/or other activities that make your play time irregular enough to prevent you from functioning in a LS.

Neither of those things can be fixed with server merges, because if you are already capable of doing stuff with a LS then you are already doing so, and a the only thing a merge will accomplish is add more competition and lag. And if you are playing irregularly having more people on the server will only mean you'll have more people getting in your way when you are trying to do stuff on your own.

That is why I think the best choice would be giving players a free server transfer every 6 months and making the concierge system more prominent by making it cross server (this includes making LS chat cross server as well.) Also, if the system could feature an in-game message board big enough where LS leaders could go in detail about their LS schedule and activities that could potentially give players a much better chance to connect with each other without using the shotgun of server merges.

/.2gil

[Immortta]

Except what you just described happens on Asura all the time. You are probably on a dead server but people randomly team up for everything here from CP parties to Ambuscade and beyond so you're wrong. Also if you don't have time you probably shouldn't be playing an MMO, there are plenty of phone games like candy crush for casual gamers. You shouldn't ask SE to dumb everything down so you can complete the entire game in one sitting and then quit and ruin it for everyone else.

[Raydeus]

Except what you just described happens on Asura all the time. You are probably on a dead server but people randomly team up for everything here from CP parties to Ambuscade and beyond so you're wrong. Also if you don't have time you probably shouldn't be playing an MMO, there are plenty of phone games like candy crush for casual gamers. You shouldn't ask SE to dumb everything down so you can complete the entire game in one sitting and then quit and ruin it for everyone else.

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been playing XI?

[Jile]

Except what you just described happens on Asura all the time. You are probably on a dead server but people randomly team up for everything here from CP parties to Ambuscade and beyond so you're wrong. Also if you don't have time you probably shouldn't be playing an MMO, there are plenty of phone games like candy crush for casual gamers. You shouldn't ask SE to dumb everything down so you can complete the entire game in one sitting and then quit and ruin it for everyone else.

The majority of servers and players are not hard core, in 2016. The server counts are dropping steadily and without some extreme turn of events where SE changes their mind and releases a new expansion along with fresh advertising we're basically biding our time, getting our last fulfillments in the game before we say goodbye.

I love this game and I'm not after dumbing it down or ruining it any more than it already is but let's be honest here.... this isn't 2005 anymore and 99% of the extreme linkshells and players moved on long ago.... my friend list, if it were full of active people would equate to 1/2 my server's typical online bazaar mules er um I mean players... So while I appreciate and understand your desire to maintain what you view as something that is still working effectively, it's simply not working for the majority of people left playing.

Most of us are 'forced' to do content "solo" with trusts. I duobox or triplebox when my wife doesn't feel like loading her Taru up >.<... and if I don't feel like doing that I'm left crafting or fishing...

On my server, for the most part, you can Ambuscade or Apex party - all other content is dead so if you want to do anything else its solo time. Sure, there is I believe 1 or 2 English linkshells left that do high teir Resin fights but they rightfully expect people to be on at a scheduled time/day and like other's have brought up for them, that doesn't work for myself either.

So the question is - should the game be turned off for the majority of us that still play and can't play on a set schedule like we did a decade ago? Is that the way it should be? Support the few people that, like yourself, that can play on a set time in a dedicated linkshell but forget the majority of others?

It's unfortunate but a reality that for SE to keep most people paying and playing they're going to have to keep a solo-friendly playstyle open for content.... While I miss the push and grind of yesteryear (well not so much the grind lol) it's gone, dead, over and this solo-ish play is what most of us have. I would say too though before you push too many people over to candy crush (LOL) that you keep in mind that without us paying, SE isn't going to keep the servers running for the handful of people that still think they're hardcore players, there just are not that many left.

In short... Embrace your fellow players as we solo(ish) players are paying the majority of the subscriptions :)

[Hyrist]

Even as a soloist. I don't agree with the concept of having the AI avoid gaze mechanics. The fact that they exist ads depth to the necessity of smart planning when using mechanics.

There is a couple existing in-game solutions to gaze mechanics with tanking, depending if it is conal or not. And one you don't want to hear, but is the dead truth.

Conal gazes can be done with two trusts on opposite ends of your party listing. (Summon one first, one last) and engaging the enemy by curving in on its flank, if possible. This puts the two tanks on opposing sides and when one is hit with the mechanic, the other can take over. Sadly , this puts your other trusts at risk, as well as the other disadvantages of a two-tank set up with trusts, but it does enable a two-trust-tank set up to be more durable against gaze and breath attacks.

Alternatively, the most simple solution is this is the one you don't want to hear: Play a tank. As the population shrinks, the players themselves are going to have to accommodate themselves within existing mechanics, because as the population shrinks, the less likely the development team is going to weigh in on altering major mechanics above considering shutting down the servers. There are multiple flavors of tanking to choose from (and some DPS classes are going to wind up tanking anyways through out-damaging their counterparts) so there's no excuse not to at least experiment with them to see if one feels good for you. There is plenty of existing content that does not need you to play a specific way that you can be flexible enough to switch tactics and be one on occasion.

Also, soloists are going to have to accept that some content just isn't solo friendly, and that's fine. Most the gear you'll be getting in non-soloable content is for non-soloable content anyways, so don't sweat it so much.

[Mithlas]

Even as a soloist. I don't agree with the concept of having the AI avoid gaze mechanics...

I have leveled both RUN and PLD. I am gearing them up now. I believe I mentioned that one of my posts on the first page?
The main problem for me with PLD is that people don't want to work with me yet as I don't have Ochain or Aegis yet. Not being my main jobs, and with my limited playtime, it's going to take quite a bit of time to get those shields.

Farm currency for gil right? Well... that's pointless as my source of income is Dynamis currency - which I am saving up for Aegis. I'm really glad SE lowered the amount of time between stages. When I do eventually get the currency for Aegis it'll be so much faster to get through it.

[Hyrist]

First off I was referring to playing a tank as playing a tank for your trusts. Your trusts aren't going to care if you don't have an Ochain or Aegis yet, and frankly, neither do most starting groups in Escha. The hype on the boards is not the whole of the player base. And there are alternatives to Aegis and Ochain as you're improving yourself. Tanks are still at a premium in general, so being one in general still nets you higher chances of getting into groups. Just don't be picky about which groups you're getting into.

As far as Trusts go, the best way to get tanks to avoid gaze mechanics is to be the tank, and not rely on trusts to do the role.

As far as your money issues. Diversify your income. If Dynamis currency is a desire for you, then your best solution is NOT to do the content that drops it. Focus your time on making gil and leave others to farm the currency for you. Skirmish Stones, Devious Die/Liminal Residue (as well as other drops) from Walk of Echoes, HP Baylds, Alexandrites - Everything that isn't your goal should be your targets, and keep yourself diversified - as the wider your variety, the broader your market (and the less it seems like a total grind.) In the end you'll start to figure out what your target customers want the most and make a killing with that.

Also, I'm going to state another piece of unpopular advice: Do not be afraid to undercut slightly. Players who overprice things like to try to cow others into playing their game to give themselves a 'fair' shot at the money, but that's not how free market works. You are competing with the other players for your customers, so if you feel as if it's worth it to sell quicker by selling for less, do it. In the end it's them that are going to be rushing hand over fists to keep up with you. Buy low, sell fairly, and quickly. Currency that doesn't sell just winds up being wasted time.

I can't speak for lesser populated servers, so I'm going to advise that you move to one that's more populated at this point. Money may be tight, but for the two meals out you could improve your gaming experience significantly. Your call.

[detlef]

A tank trust that turns would be better than a lot of actual players and that's not something we can have since they are already immune to charm.

[Sirmarki]

I have leveled both RUN and PLD. I am gearing them up now. I believe I mentioned that one of my posts on the first page?
The main problem for me with PLD is that people don't want to work with me yet as I don't have Ochain or Aegis yet. Not being my main jobs, and with my limited playtime, it's going to take quite a bit of time to get those shields.

Farm currency for gil right? Well... that's pointless as my source of income is Dynamis currency - which I am saving up for Aegis. I'm really glad SE lowered the amount of time between stages. When I do eventually get the currency for Aegis it'll be so much faster to get through it.

If youre looking for a Shield to get you by for the time being, without spending gil - The UNM Coca drops an OK one.

Ajax+1
DEF:61 Shield Skill+112 Enmity+11
Annuls Magic Damage +4%
Magic Damage Taken -21%
Unity Ranking: HP70~120

[Immortta]

Sorry but if this games turns into 90% solo based, I will quit lol. I don't mind waiting and shouting or creating a static for something (which I do and have aeonic wpns.) Just like we had to do in the old days. If you have no time then this probably isn't the type of game for you. Like I said earlier there is candy crush for phones or SE is making a mobile version that will probably be 100% casual oriented with a cash shop.

[Raydeus]

Sorry but if this games turns into 90% solo based, I will quit lol. I don't mind waiting and shouting or creating a static for something (which I do and have aeonic wpns.) Just like we had to do in the old days. If you have no time then this probably isn't the type of game for you. Like I said earlier there is candy crush for phones or SE is making a mobile version that will probably be 100% casual oriented with a cash shop.

Right back at you, if you only want to play glued to a team without doing anything on your own there are plenty of competitive games out there for you. MOBAs, FPS, etc. where you have no option but to do everything with other people and can't play alone. Those games also have cash shops for you to use. Heck, with your hard core skillz and practice you might even make it to pro and get into e-sports. Isn't that exciting? :D

[Immortta]

Nope not exciting cuz I only love FFXI not those game. FFXI being 90% solo oriented goes completely against it's core principals. You can already solo over half of the entire game currently... isn't that enough? You can solo everything except high tier Escha and the new Master trials.

[Catmato]

Sorry but if this games turns into 90% solo based, I will quit lol.

You can solo everything except high tier Escha and the new Master trials.

So it's already more than 90% solo. Bye.

[Immortta]

:( I think I'll stay, but I actually forgot high tier UNMs and Intense ambuscade :)

[OmnysValefor]

If youre looking for a Shield to get you by for the time being, without spending gil - The UNM Coca drops an OK one.

Ajax+1
DEF:61 Shield Skill+112 Enmity+11
Annuls Magic Damage +4%
Magic Damage Taken -21%
Unity Ranking: HP70~120

With WHM's Shellra V, this puts a PLD just under 50% MDT cap. This is a nice shield. There's also Beatific +1 which is -25% MDT and pretty much always you at MDT cap, with any kind of healer, and that's excluding any other -mdt/dt gear that you might have. Both are still inferior to Aegis, because Aegis goes past the MDT cap, but they're good shields. This also allows PLD to MDT cap without shell if you have a fight where you're getting dispelled/buffs stolen.If you're tanking a magic heavy fight, gear Magic Defense Bonus once you're at MDT cap (possibly wanting to PDT cap too, depending on the fight).

For physical damage? Priwen is pretty darn good. With a strong fast-cast/haste set, which OP won't have yet, you can keep reprisal up full time and then it surpasses Ochain in a lot of content.

[Mithlas]

I thought that FC was limited to a recast reduction of 50%? Wouldn't that still leave 30 seconds in between Reprisal recasts? I apologize if I don't have the latest info.

Thanks!

[Kensagaku]

Last I heard, FC is limited to a recast reduction of 40% (80% casting cap, 80% FC = 40% recast). But you can also combine it with gear haste (25% reduction), the spell Haste (15% reduction), and possibly other forms of haste such as Haste II (30% instead of 15%), Geo-Haste (varies, but can be up to 35% with 900 skill tier and Dunna, or more with Idris), or Marches.

[Mithlas]

Ah. I meant total recast reduction.
So FC + magic haste + JA haste + gear haste = capped at 50% reduction of recast for spells.

Is this no longer the case?

[detlef]

Recast reduction is 80%.

Edit: I realize I stated this as fact but I can't find a confirmation of it so YMMV.