May Update Dissapointment

[Secondplanet]

"Summoner

The maximum effective summoning magic skill for the ability Elemental Siphon has been raised to 700.
At a summoning magic skill of 700, the amount of MP restored will be 680"

So how about a show of hands for those who are far from happy about this? The one ability we had no need for an augment on and thats what they do.

Also want to point out, Does SE even know smn? 700 smn magic cap? I got almost every scrap of smn magic gear in the game and i sit at a little over 600. Why is smn the only job in the game the SE keeps putting up near impossible requirements for us to get the maximum potential out of our jobs?

[dmuller30]

I am like so upset about this and feel as if SE just slapped me in the face. WE DON'T USE THIS SKILL IN END GAME!!!! I have not once used this skill after getting decently geared on SMN. My refresh set is good enough my mp is always just about full, and with refresh from just my NPC there is no need to use this skill. My timer is 30 seconds!!!! By the time I am done waiting for my timer to be done MY MP IS FULL! This skill is so worthless and it gets an upgrade ?!?!?! What about our timer issue ? Can we get that fixed what about our buff issues can we please get that fixed. Please for the love of all that is good stop giving us stuff we don't need!

[Shirai]

Since I don't hold any expectations it's pretty hard for me to get disappointed. Confused is the right word for me.
I wasn't aware that people still based their ES gearsets on Skill, especially since it's insanely cheap to augment Telchine with Elemental Siphon bonuses which go beyond the amount of skill you can get on those slots...

[dmuller30]

Since I don't hold any expectations it's pretty hard for me to get disappointed. Confused is the right word for me.
I wasn't aware that people still based their ES gearsets on Skill, especially since it's insanely cheap to augment Telchine with Elemental Siphon bonuses which go beyond the amount of skill you can get on those slots...

Even if this is the case it still doesn't matter because once you are decently geared you won't even need this . . . . Refresh II / III is enough to keep you full without even touching this JA. It's like they don't listen to what we are saying . . . . .

[Shirai]

Even if this is the case it still doesn't matter because once you are decently geared you won't even need this . . . . Refresh II / III is enough to keep you full without even touching this JA. It's like they don't listen to what we are saying . . . . .

With support, you're right, I don't really need ES.
But I solo quite a lot, so I actually do make quite regular use of it.

[dmuller30]

With support, you're right, I don't really need ES.
But I solo quite a lot, so I actually do make quite regular use of it.

Still in the grand scheme of things the likely hood of you using it is very low considering 80% of the time you have trust.

[Shirai]

Not on Summoner, most of my solos are true solo. Kiting, like the good old days.
Apart from that, my melee gearset doesn't have any refresh, on the other hand I do have Myrkr and Spirit taker for those situations.

[dmuller30]

Not on Summoner, most of my solos are true solo. Kiting, like the good old days.
Apart from that, my melee gearset doesn't have any refresh, on the other hand I do have Myrkr and Spirit taker for those situations.

Which is my point exactly. I am not trying to bash your earlier comment. I am just saying there is better more efficient ways to restore your MP. This is a dead skill.Me and the other SMN in my group don't touch it while doing end game or solo stuff because there is better things we can use to get mp back.

[Secondplanet]

I use ES quite often in groups as i go do my own thing for the group, i'm a one man army so 5 people go one way and i go the other. But even still at its before update level i could max out my mp every time the counter was back up. I really fail to see why this change was needed.

But again its SE, when was the last time one of them played a job other then their chosen ones recently.

[dmuller30]

I use ES quite often in groups as i go do my own thing for the group, i'm a one man army so 5 people go one way and i go the other. But even still at its before update level i could max out my mp every time the counter was back up. I really fail to see why this change was needed.

But again its SE, when was the last time one of them played a job other then their chosen ones recently.

The only ones that should be able to do updates are the ones who play the class and learn it. I been playing this class for over 11 years, get some experience then decide on the update.

[Clou777]

this update to smn was an absolute pisstake, the things that smn needed fixed have once again just been pushed aside for something like this....

[dmuller30]

this update to smn was an absolute pisstake, the things that smn needed fixed have once again just been pushed aside for something like this....

Did us SMN do something wrong to make them hate us?

[Zeargi]

Did us SMN do something wrong to make them hate us?
We're not SAM, so we're automatically hated. :p

[dmuller30]

We're not SAM, so we're automatically hated. :p

Ugh it irritates me so bad. . . I can't believe SE would pull this kinda stuff on us. . .

[Ulth]

Ugh it irritates me so bad. . . I can't believe SE would pull this kinda stuff on us. . .

Uh... pull what stuff on you exactly? It's pretty obvious that their main focus is on the new content. Probably the only reason there was time to do anything for SMN this update was because it was so small and inconsequential. Also it's not all bad for SMN, new grip that gives blood pact damage +5.

[Immortta]

Lower the pitchforks people, they are doing monthly updates so there will be another chance. They already stated they have plans to improve the summoner buffs in a previous post.

[Secondplanet]

Uh... pull what stuff on you exactly? It's pretty obvious that their main focus is on the new content. Probably the only reason there was time to do anything for SMN this update was because it was so small and inconsequential. Also it's not all bad for SMN, new grip that gives blood pact damage +5.

But that excuse has been used for far too many years, how long after ToAU did they finally give us Alexander and Odin? Also it took them almost 3 years after they told us to give us Cait Sith and Atomos. We were told about a year ago that our concerns over our blood pact wards were going to be passed to the dev team but NOTHING has come out of it not even an answer about any possible progress or even if they will ever do anything about it. While all other jobs as basking in full 119 glory we're still half locked at 75.


Lower the pitchforks people, they are doing monthly updates so there will be another chance. They already stated they have plans to improve the summoner buffs in a previous post.

Sorry my torch is already lit and they don't take returns. Summoners are just tired of being told by the player base to just wait for the next update but never told anything from the dev team until the update notes go live.

[Ulth]

But that excuse has been used for far too many years, how long after ToAU did they finally give us Alexander and Odin? Also it took them almost 3 years after they told us to give us Cait Sith and Atomos. We were told about a year ago that our concerns over our blood pact wards were going to be passed to the dev team but NOTHING has come out of it not even an answer about any possible progress or even if they will ever do anything about it. While all other jobs as basking in full 119 glory we're still half locked at 75.



Sorry my torch is already lit and they don't take returns. Summoners are just tired of being told by the player base to just wait for the next update but never told anything from the dev team until the update notes go live.

I'm sorry. It must be so hard for you. Maybe you should try acting even more entitled. I'm sure that will get you what you want. /s

[dmuller30]

I'm sorry. It must be so hard for you. Maybe you should try acting even more entitled. I'm sure that will get you what you want. /s

Seriously you must have not been playing SMN for the last 11+ years his views are totally valid. Go read the updates then get back to us. It is not only us that are really upset but a ton of veteran and new SMNs that thought this update was seriously lack luster. SE Has been upgrading most stuff that is obsolete for SMN. WHY? Other jobs are all mostly current with spells that match their lvls etc. To not see the validity in his comment is silly because if you did play SMN as much you would know this was a slap in the face to all of us. Just because the forums only have a few people complaining about this update don't count out the countless people on the server thinking they got ripped off this update. They have talked about upgrading our Wards for how many years and he is right it took 3 years for us to get 1 summon. At this point SMN's all over just want the updates that are worth it. It's not about entitlement it about respecting the players concerns and wishes. If it was just 1 person complaining it isn't a problem but when you got over half the SMN population disappointed it is time to make a change.

[Ulth]

Yep, reading through the updates that include SMN. Stuff like increasing ranges, adding Apogee, lowering the recast of Apogee, adding new blood pacts, buffing old blood pacts, adding T2 skillchain properties to things like Flaming Crush, I don't see how you guys manage with such meager buffs to your job.

Seriously, SMN was the only job with any adjustment this update. If this was like a huge update where lots of jobs were getting buffs I could understand why getting something small would be insulting, but that is not the case. It was a small update that was little more than them changing the rewards and fights for this month's Ambuscade. Here is the thing. They really can't do a lot for the game in a months time. That's the reasoning behind Ambuscade. It's small and easy to update each month. It is supposed to keep people busy and entertained while they do work on new things. So just enjoy the mini updates while they work on the real updates that will probably happen every 2 to 3 months time.

[Secondplanet]

Yep, reading through the updates that include SMN. Stuff like increasing ranges, adding Apogee, lowering the recast of Apogee, adding new blood pacts, buffing old blood pacts, adding T2 skillchain properties to things like Flaming Crush, I don't see how you guys manage with such meager buffs to your job.

Again your lack of knowledge of the job just shines on through brighter then the goddess Altana herself. Increasing our range was needed as every AoE would one shot us and our range was far shorter then most mages when it came to it. Apogee was given to us just as everyone else got new abilities for their jobs but ours is a double edged sword, yes we can do 2 bloodpacts back to back but the first will cost double the mp cost which is great for short fights but long term the cost was too high. The new bloodpacts most were junk as shiva's Crystal Blessing gives +250tp on weaponskills... so like what 1 hit for a DD? as for the BP rages they were needed as when level cap was being raised from 75-99 some avatars didn't get new bloodpacts and most are cost too much mp for such a lacking attack. Buffing old bloodpacts??? LMFAO i would love to see that, like said many times most of our wards are still stuck in the days of 75 which would only take them raising the cap to fix and most our rage BP's aren't worth using as they do such minimal damage they are not worth our timers. As for Skillchain properties i'm not sure when that was done but weaponskills had two properties so there was no need for avatars to be left with one, it was done to bring avatars to a similar level as other jobs.

[Ulth]

Again your lack of knowledge of the job just shines on through brighter then the goddess Altana herself. Increasing our range was needed as every AoE would one shot us and our range was far shorter then most mages when it came to it. Apogee was given to us just as everyone else got new abilities for their jobs but ours is a double edged sword, yes we can do 2 bloodpacts back to back but the first will cost double the mp cost which is great for short fights but long term the cost was too high. The new bloodpacts most were junk as shiva's Crystal Blessing gives +250tp on weaponskills... so like what 1 hit for a DD? as for the BP rages they were needed as when level cap was being raised from 75-99 some avatars didn't get new bloodpacts and most are cost too much mp for such a lacking attack. Buffing old bloodpacts??? LMFAO i would love to see that, like said many times most of our wards are still stuck in the days of 75 which would only take them raising the cap to fix and most our rage BP's aren't worth using as they do such minimal damage they are not worth our timers. As for Skillchain properties i'm not sure when that was done but weaponskills had two properties so there was no need for avatars to be left with one, it was done to bring avatars to a similar level as other jobs.

Apogee is a +50% increase in mp cost not a +100%. I just thought it was funny that after you say I don't know anything about the job you make a blunder like that.

Anyway listening to you complain about new spells and abilities would be like if a blue mage said something along the lines of "Yeah, I like Mighty Guard but I never use Cruel Joke..."

[Secondplanet]

Anyway listening to you complain about new spells and abilities would be like if a blue mage said something along the lines of "Yeah, I like Mighty Guard but I never use Cruel Joke..."

I find it beyond amusing that you are criticizing me for a opinion that many summoners share and then you come out with something like this....


Anyway if I was going to fix war this is what I would do. Let's ignore fencer, basically it lets war do one hand if they choose to. Focus on abilities of war that works for both 2 hand and 1 hand wars, as well as things that would make it more desirable in a party. First I would switch the duration and recast of Warcry, Blood Rage, and Tomahawk, that way not only could they be full timed but if they get dispelled some how it's not the end of the world, you just get a little job ability delay. I would also change the merits for warcry from lowering the recast to increasing the amount of attack it gives. With full merits I think the new potency of warcry should be somewhere in the 50-60% increase in attack similar to a geo fury. As for Tomahawk instead of increasing the duration of the debuff it should increase the potency of by 5% with every merit past the first so that works out as 45%, and 50% if you use the relic legs.

So you say that we're asking for a lot from the developers while you want WAR to become a broken OP job..... that is rich and after seeing the double standards you have I am done with trying to talk about this game in a serious manner with you.

[Shirai]

The more I read this, the more I start siding with Ulth. You guys are acting like Summoner is on the bottom of the pit.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that a lot of our abillities need a buff, and that this update has left a lot of us terribly confused.
But looking at where Summoner stands it is not doing bad at all.
Summoners are still invited to high end endgame content to play several roles, Summoners are still invited to join CP parties, Summoners can solo stuff other jobs can't even beat with a full party of trusts.
And don't get me started about our 1 hours, especially if you add the effects Job Points have on them, pretty much among the most powerful in the game.

Just look at Ulth's thief, where does he fit in? What content actually still uses thieves?
Seriously folks, stop acting like little children, even with the improvements we'd so love to see more than half of the jobs out there have it worse than us, a lot worse.

[Secondplanet]

Summoners can solo stuff other jobs can't even beat with a full party of trusts.


I would love to see your setup to pull this off, Just thinking you're using a fastcast set for summoning and maybe subbing nin for shadows or get lucky with blink to allow you time to summoner still, A tanking set so your avatar doesn't get one shotted by a skill attack from the NM but how do you get mp back since this fight would be drawn out? Sorry to pick on this but without trusts and most NM's now having a battlefield zone which takes kiting out of the picture you would have to rely on killing it fast with maybe you 1hr's but that would still bank on your avatar staying alive long enough to finish your attack storm.

[Shirai]

I would love to see your setup to pull this off, Just thinking you're using a fastcast set for summoning and maybe subbing nin for shadows or get lucky with blink to allow you time to summoner still, A tanking set so your avatar doesn't get one shotted by a skill attack from the NM but how do you get mp back since this fight would be drawn out? Sorry to pick on this but without trusts and most NM's now having a battlefield zone which takes kiting out of the picture you would have to rely on killing it fast with maybe you 1hr's but that would still bank on your avatar staying alive long enough to finish your attack storm.

Fast cast, check. But that's something I've been using for so long that I actually judge the people that don't as it's a very clear indicator they they'll most likely also slack in other departments.
Other then that, nothing special, no nin sub, pet -DT or anything fancy like that. Just good old knowledge of terrain, the type of mob(s) and good old game mechanics that have worked since before I started playing this game.

Note that, barring devastating TP moves, when wearing ilevel gear we can also easilly survive a couple of hits ourselves.

Also note that I never said, anywhere, that we're able to solo everything. But we can still solo considerably more than most of the other jobs.

[dmuller30]

Fast cast, check. But that's something I've been using for so long that I actually judge the people that don't as it's a very clear indicator they they'll most likely also slack in other departments.
Other then that, nothing special, no nin sub, pet -DT or anything fancy like that. Just good old knowledge of terrain, the type of mob(s) and good old game mechanics that have worked since before I started playing this game.

Note that, barring devastating TP moves, when wearing ilevel gear we can also easilly survive a couple of hits ourselves.

Also note that I never said, anywhere, that we're able to solo everything. But we can still solo considerably more than most of the other jobs.

We can solo a lot of mobs that don't need trust but for the ones that matter you need the trusts which isn't technically soloing. And it is alright to side with whoever you want there is always going to be clashing opinions you are very optimistic just like I used to be about SMN but beating the job with stuff that is lack luster is just making a lot of SMNs a little unsettled, tired and while some are still optimistic the majority are a bit irritated. I don't know how many SMN I asked about this on my server because I am also upset about the update have said they couldn't believe they would update something so minimal. So me and Secondplanet are not the only people upset it's a lot of people. So my opinion just like many still stands, I am very dissapointed about this update and I feel as if they could do more. They have been saying they are going to up our blood wards for so many years that also hasn't happened so yes I am upset and confused and for me I believe it is valid.

[dmuller30]

Yep, reading through the updates that include SMN. Stuff like increasing ranges, adding Apogee, lowering the recast of Apogee, adding new blood pacts, buffing old blood pacts, adding T2 skillchain properties to things like Flaming Crush, I don't see how you guys manage with such meager buffs to your job.

Seriously, SMN was the only job with any adjustment this update. If this was like a huge update where lots of jobs were getting buffs I could understand why getting something small would be insulting, but that is not the case. It was a small update that was little more than them changing the rewards and fights for this month's Ambuscade. Here is the thing. They really can't do a lot for the game in a months time. That's the reasoning behind Ambuscade. It's small and easy to update each month. It is supposed to keep people busy and entertained while they do work on new things. So just enjoy the mini updates while they work on the real updates that will probably happen every 2 to 3 months time.

And although those updates are nice instead of adding Apogee they should just lowered the BP timer to match current content (Spamming solo sc) or just keep apogee while still lower our BP timer. Range was an issue from day one since it is a mage job, also the blood wards range was a serious issue that was complained about for years. The skill chains are a nice addition but seriously every job can solo skill chain themselves with the proper gear we have to wait every 10 min (don't remember apogee recast). And yes we can solo SC if you utilize melee with SMN but Escha mobs (and most other end game bosses) are unforgiving and really only allow for a few jobs that won't die at close combat. Which is primarily but not limited to BLU/BST. So even for a mini update they could have done so much more and address the other small issues that could be implemented for SMN instead they upgraded a skill that isn't really even used by end game SMN with decent or better gear because other options are way more efficient. And besides those few updates you mentioned those were many years after receiving such horrible upgrades. So not just me but many may be a little skeptical on SE's so called "Big updates" for augmenting SMN because a ton of those big updates for SMN were just as disappointing as this to many people.

[Ulth]

And although those updates are nice instead of adding Apogee they should just lowered the BP timer to match current content (Spamming solo sc) or just keep apogee while still lower our BP timer. Range was an issue from day one since it is a mage job, also the blood wards range was a serious issue that was complained about for years. The skill chains are a nice addition but seriously every job can solo skill chain themselves with the proper gear we have to wait every 10 min (don't remember apogee recast). And yes we can solo SC if you utilize melee with SMN but Escha mobs (and most other end game bosses) are unforgiving and really only allow for a few jobs that won't die at close combat. Which is primarily but not limited to BLU/BST. So even for a mini update they could have done so much more and address the other small issues that could be implemented for SMN instead they upgraded a skill that isn't really even used by end game SMN with decent or better gear because other options are way more efficient. And besides those few updates you mentioned those were many years after receiving such horrible upgrades. So not just me but many may be a little skeptical on SE's so called "Big updates" for augmenting SMN because a ton of those big updates for SMN were just as disappointing as this to many people.

It's 3 minutes. It was 5 but then they shortened it to 3. You weren't even close. Seriously how do you people justify being distraught over a job you can't even remember how one of your 3 job abilities work and can't be bothered to look it up. Every job has had its ups and downs through their entirety of the game. Just because you personally feel that your job has had more downs then up doesn't mean you are owed anything from the dev team. Get over it.

This is ridiculous it's like when in the Harry Potter books Dudley got mad because he got 36 presents instead of 37.

[dmuller30]

It's 3 minutes. It was 5 but then they shortened it to 3. You weren't even close. Seriously how do you people justify being distraught over a job you can't even remember how one of your 3 job abilities work and can't be bothered to look it up. Every job has had its ups and downs through their entirety of the game. Just because you personally feel that your job has had more downs then up doesn't mean you are owed anything from the dev team. Get over it.

This is ridiculous it's like when in the Harry Potter books Dudley got mad because he got 36 presents instead of 37.

Well you are entitled to your opinion just like I am entitled to mine not knowing a timer doesn't make me any less or more of a player. And it doesn't matter about quantity it matters about quality. I would rather take 3 quality updates rather then 30 lack luster updates. And judging by your current post from my other post about job balance you want the same thing for another job so we aren't so different. No one owes anyone anything but everyone has the right to feel that the update is meaningless you are 1 out of the few that doesn't care. So if you don't care then this isn't the thread for you my friend it is for the people who are dissapointed and aren't satisfied with the update(s).

[Zeargi]

Apogee is a +50% increase in mp cost not a +100%. I just thought it was funny that after you say I don't know anything about the job you make a blunder like that.

TBH, It shouldn't have that added effect at all. >_> RDM's and BLM's equivalent don't cost them anything extra, and BLM is beastly when it comes to MP restoring.

Overall, SMN is in a good spot, but there are some fine-tuning that really should be looked at. I've already listed my complains, and still my list grows with nitpicking.
Such as Crag Throw should really inflict Slow II
Heavenward Howl should really just give endrain, Give Diabolos Enaspir, and each avatar their own element.
Lunar Roar should remove more than just 2 buffs, up to like 5 depend on SMN skill, and give a notice of how many are removed
Noctoshield should be a higher Phalanx mod
Diamond Storm should be a Higher EVA Down based off of when RDM gets distract II
Ecliptic Growl/Howl Should have higher base stats 90+
Blindside/Regal Gash should be looked at for being Level 99 abilities
Carbuncle/Cait Sith Should be made to not suck for being the only offensive Light Avatars....

The list goes on.

Have they done good for SMN, yes. But for not being 1 of the 7 high demand jobs, it's frustrating when you want to play SMN, but some things fall way shorter than they should.

[Cabalabob]

Can we even get 700 summoning skill? Dunno about anyone else but I'm struggling to get over 550.

[dmuller30]

Can we even get 700 summoning skill? Dunno about anyone else but I'm struggling to get over 550.

You can but it super hard . . . . . .

[Secondplanet]

Can we even get 700 summoning skill? Dunno about anyone else but I'm struggling to get over 550.

So far the best i can get is 602 atm but i can get 2 other items to get me about another 9 i think. Not sure how close to 700 you can get but i can't see you being able to get more then 620 maybe.

[Sicycre]

Hi, everyone!

Currently, there are no plans to make adjustments in terms of summoner's attack aspects; however, we will continue to make adjustments moving forward with the next one being adjustments to healing-type blood pacts.

[Siviard]

Sicycre, sir

I don't believe the issue is the lack of Summoner's attack power, more so than the lack of gear that provides Summoning Magic Skill+, as even some of the most elite Summoners in the game cannot attain 700 Summoning Magic skill, at least to my knowledge.

[Alhanelem]

Hi, everyone!

Currently, there are no plans to make adjustments in terms of summoner's attack aspects; however, we will continue to make adjustments moving forward with the next one being adjustments to healing-type blood pacts.
Please no, people don't care about this... All blood pact wards need adjustment, not just the healing ones which aren't that important as it is. As people have posted before, these abilities still have limits that are based on pre-item level (or maybe it was even pre-99) parameters, as my understanding of the situation is.

[Secondplanet]

Hi, everyone!

Currently, there are no plans to make adjustments in terms of summoner's attack aspects; however, we will continue to make adjustments moving forward with the next one being adjustments to healing-type blood pacts.

Glad something is happening but i seriously hope its just the beginning, ALL of our wards need adjustment but as for our rages i think maybe the lower tier ones could possibly need a upgrade but our wards are the ones that need help.

[Shirai]

I'd like to see a few powerful AoE pacts if possible, or at least an adjustment to Level ? Holy where it always does damage.

[Clou777]

i think Odin should be adjusted so if there is no instant KO it should do a conal 9999 damage as most of our BPs can do over 10k damage these days easily anyway. There should be no reason people should EVER waste 1 hour ability on Odin to have him do nothing for the summoner except pull hate for merely having used the avatar.

[Secondplanet]

i think Odin should be adjusted so if there is no instant KO it should do a conal 9999 damage as most of our BPs can do over 10k damage these days easily anyway. There should be no reason people should EVER waste 1 hour ability on Odin to have him do nothing for the summoner except pull hate for merely having used the avatar.

don't forget ALL of our mp as well.

[Shirai]

i think Odin should be adjusted so if there is no instant KO it should do a conal 9999 damage as most of our BPs can do over 10k damage these days easily anyway. There should be no reason people should EVER waste 1 hour ability on Odin to have him do nothing for the summoner except pull hate for merely having used the avatar.

Heck, I'd settle for Death Properties on an equal recast timer.

[Clou777]

prime example of the unbalance

[Fae]

Hi, everyone!

Currently, there are no plans to make adjustments in terms of summoner's attack aspects; however, we will continue to make adjustments moving forward with the next one being adjustments to healing-type blood pacts.

I'm very happy for both of these, thank you very much SE Dev team. I agree our attack aspects are fine for now but our wards do need help and healing wards aren't a bad place to start. The only attack thing I'd really like to see is as Shirai stated some sort of aoe pact would be nice or having Level ? Holy adjusted to always hit. For example, gears in salvage are thunder resistant, and the only aoe pact we have is thunder based. Thunderspark is also hard to position well and has a short range. I stated my views on wards before so I'll spare you just glad they some are being worked on!!!

[Fae]

Can we even get 700 summoning skill? Dunno about anyone else but I'm struggling to get over 550.

I don't think the cap was put in place b/c it's obtainable just to let you have room for future growth on it. Bf is at 624, and only missing the HQ Apogee body and feet for summoning skill that we know of, which would add another 11 over what he's using. Yea, it's better to get telchine pieces, but it's still good for them to do this work of adjusting caps to keep gear relevant into the future.

[Windwhisper]

Did anyone, ever use Pacifying Ruby constantly? i think i myself have used it twice. once to see how it looks and a 2nd on accident

[dmuller30]

Yes please do our wards soon.... SE has been saying they will upgrade our wards for years.

[Secondplanet]

Did anyone, ever use Pacifying Ruby constantly? i think i myself have used it twice. once to see how it looks and a 2nd on accident

I use it during fights to help the tank maintain hate which allows my wifey to go all out on her DRG and just wreck things without worrying about becoming a target. Between that and super jump she never has hate issues anymore.

[Zeargi]

Did anyone, ever use Pacifying Ruby constantly? i think i myself have used it twice. once to see how it looks and a 2nd on accident

It's fine when you have a party, but if you're soloing it generates more enmity than it really should.

[Camate]

Greetings,

As a follow-up in regard to upcoming summoner adjustments, we are planning to make changes to Apogee in a future version update.

We’re currently in the midst of looking into change the way this ability works so that when used it would reset the cool down timers of Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward. However, we’d like to hear your feedback on whether there are any issues with this.

Please also understand that there may be the possibility that when testing it turns out that it will be unable to make this change.

[Zeargi]

Greetings,

As a follow-up in regard to upcoming summoner adjustments, we are planning to make changes to Apogee in a future version update.

We’re currently in the midst of looking into change the way this ability works so that when used it would reset the cool down timers of Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward. However, we’d like to hear your feedback on whether there are any issues with this.

Please also understand that there may be the possibility that when testing it turns out that it will be unable to make this change.


1.) Do you mean that we can use basically 4 Blood Pacts (2 Wards, 2 Rages) in rapid succession and that way it would be used after to then reset cool down?
2.) If that's the case, does that mean the x2 MP cost is going to be removed?

Also, While a change like this is still good, it doesn't help with the potency of our Wards. Which is what most people are asking about. Our Attack Strength is pretty good ATM with some decent time put into it.

[Fae]

Did anyone, ever use Pacifying Ruby constantly? i think i myself have used it twice. once to see how it looks and a 2nd on accident

I used it on Hidhaegg on a BLU, while a THF was using TA on the PLD (which keeps being terror'd that fight). It did help, to the tune of like 1-2 skillchains more before the BLU would take hate and then have to turtle up or die but it seems for something I have to spam every 30 seconds to make that little difference it should have a boost.



Greetings,

As a follow-up in regard to upcoming summoner adjustments, we are planning to make changes to Apogee in a future version update.

We’re currently in the midst of looking into change the way this ability works so that when used it would reset the cool down timers of Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward. However, we’d like to hear your feedback on whether there are any issues with this.

Please also understand that there may be the possibility that when testing it turns out that it will be unable to make this change.

I am very happy to hear SMN adjustments are on the table! This is how I feel about this adjustment:

Uses could be found for it, as it gives us one more pact per apogee if we plan carefully but it also is limiting in that it doesn't help us say put on more wards sooner or do longer attack chains. It just lets us get more use out of wards in a battle situation where we'd favor rage over ward. Already doing Tumult Curator with a SMN in the party along with BRD and COR rotating buffs too, we reach the cap of max displayable buffs (especially since fenrir's takes soooo many slots), which lead to confusion and inability to determine when important buffs were going to fall off. I believe we and other SMN strongly feel that rather than the amount of buffs we can put on mid battle going up (or not sacrificing as much damage to apply the same number of buffs) our buffs should be more meaningful given that it takes so much time and often mana cost to put one on in the first place especially if you look at other mage jobs. To me our wards should be either unique or strong party wide versions of existing spells to constitute the cost of being able to apply less in a given duration. To me this was the original function and purpose of wards, just many have not kept up with the times at all. 13 damage reduction phalanx was meaningful at one point, but now that any mage with enhancing skill can reach 35 damage reduction, it is not useful to ever cast it (and I don't, I actually get more of using it as SMN with RDM sub and enhancing gear than using phalanx). SCH or a mage with SCH subjob can out do almost all our wards based on their spells, in shorter time. Phalanx AoE 35 damage reduction vs Diabolos 13. We get enfire, enthunder, ice spikes and shock spikes. RDM/SCH or SCH/RDM can accession these... and every other element, and I'm pretty sure at greater potency. What's worse, is that even though they can do that, they rarely do because they aren't valued. Endrain is a great ward, when the moon phase is right but Enaspir is very niche in use. Player stoneskin can reach 475 HP, but Titan's Earthen Ward is stuck at much worse values (still 248 if reports are to be believed which means it never kept going up with ilvl and is stuck at 99, much like healing wards and if that's the case with it, Ifrit's Warcry is probably in the same situation). I could go on but you get the idea, our wards are far behind and even what some of them do isn't valued enough to be cast by jobs that can both put it on the party faster and with higher potency. All that leaves a lot of SMN wards take both a high cost of time and have less meaningful effects, even compared to non support jobs, just other mages who sub sch for the aoe effect. It's not like our solo ability is great either, without 1 hours our dmg solo is painfully slow vs content Ifrit won't work on, and being so cornered into using a niche few pacts is I think the main problem. Out of all our cool toys I usually only use Haste 2, Earthern Armor, Flaming Crush, Volt Strike, Shock Squall, and occassionally TP Bonus, Warcry, and Enfire or Endrain if time. If doing bcnm runs for example, I won't get that entire list off. Our -25 Evasion down on thing's like Shiva's ward just don't make sense, why so little? During the right phase of moon Fenrir does more and it's not respectable either, not when Feint can put 250 evasion down, and distract 3 over 100, and again, any mage with rdm sub can put -35 evasion down distract, our wards for having a huge cast time are also very impotent. It makes them tend to not be used except for the ones most useful, which are usually the same ones which leads to less interesting play decisions and a lot of dead pacts.

For the adjustment itself I'm for it, if it's not the only thing in store. If it's a pick or choose thing though, I much rather would have at least some of our pacts scale with summoning skill because right now there is no way to enhance them, meanwhile mages get more skill, tons of fastcast and ability to put on tons of spell quickly, and more gear that enhances spells like stoneskin, and we are stuck in the past. If SMN had native skill in other magic schools, which they don't, they could at least use some of these on themselves. But they can't and defeats the point of having a lot of the wards in the first place. Even Aerial armor which I like, BLU gets a blink with many more blinks on it. It is not wonder so many BLU RME being made and jobs mastered, it really is stacked right now, and it isn't even used in the hardest endgame fights for aeonics. There always seems to be 8 or less people playing summoner at any given time on my server, there's even more WAR on all the time now. There's a few jobs less played than SMN but not many so I think SE would do well to give it help. The amount of work that goes into a good SMN is huge and it's much easier to gear a BLM, SCH or GEO in todays world than put that much effort into something unless you really care for and love it, and most the people here commenting outside people popping in because they want their jobs looked at instead, are dedicated summoner players that love summoner which imho is the right people to ask about the job because they not only will be most affected but have insights based on more knowledge. That said I don't pretend to speak for everyone, just myself. I thank SE very much for listening to us and I hope some of our suggestions make it into the game, thank you for making such an interesting and fun job to play and taking a look at the job balance.

[Zeargi]

Nice wall of text. Ifrit's and a war's warcry give the same attack bonus, only Ifrit's lasts much longer and has a smaller cool down. Accession takes stratagems. When you are /sch you get a stratagem every 2 minutes, aka 4 times the cooldown of a bloodpact. Even if you are a main job sch with the gift for stratagem cool down gem recharge time is 3 seconds longer that ward recharge time, with the added bonus of not having separate timer for offensive stratagems. Occultation is self target, and no blu is going to blow a 10 minute cooldown to aoe shadows. A better example would be using accession with blink but that only gives 2 shadows instead of 4. If I was to take a gander over why feint has a higher evasion down than Diamond Storm, It's probably because feint degrades over time, only lasts 30 seconds, has a recast timer of 2 minutes, and isn't AoE.

You are basically complaining that you aren't better than every job at everything all the time.

True to some extent, but there are still some things that need to be addressed.

Even if Feint fades over time, Diamond Storm is gained at Level 90. So both Feint and Distract II, which are Lv. 75 and 85, respectively, offer a -50 to evasion. So, it's not out of the realm of reasonableness to ask for -35 or even -40 to evasion. And while I agree that no BLU would use Diffusion on Occultation, most SMN also wouldn't waste the time on Aerial Armor either; as most things strip shadows/blink (Which ours is only 3, not 4). SMN shouldn't surpass another job outside the the effects that are ours alone, which are few, but we should most definitely be a viable substitute for something missing.

[Ulth]

True to some extent, but there are still some things that need to be addressed.

Even if Feint fades over time, Diamond Storm is gained at Level 90. So both Feint and Distract II, which are Lv. 75 and 85, respectively, offer a -50 to evasion. So, it's not out of the realm of reasonableness to ask for -35 or even -40 to evasion. And while I agree that no BLU would use Diffusion on Occultation, most SMN also wouldn't waste the time on Aerial Armor either; as most things strip shadows/blink (Which ours is only 3, not 4). SMN shouldn't surpass another job outside the the effects that are ours alone, which are few, but we should most definitely be a viable substitute for something missing.

It's not just that feint degrades over time, It also can only be up 1/4 of the time. Generally I only use it overwrite evasion up, but even then I think can't overwrite Distract II, but can be overwritten by Distract II, so there is probably evasion boosts it can't overwrite. Anyway what level the abilities were gotten at are irreverent. Thf gets its best ability at level 15, as for distract II they could have picked any arbitrary number over 49, it doesn't matter you are only using that spell at 99. And no, a smn should use Aerial Armor, it lasts 15 minutes, and they are out of range most of the fight anyway. Basically it's just an extra safety net in case something does happen. As for the number of shadows I'm going off what BG wiki says, and it says 3 at low levels otherwise 4. Really the only thing I agree on is Fenrir's moves being based on the moon phase being annoying.

As for what smn should be known for, it should be messing faces up with terrestrial avatars. Personally I think flaming crush needs to be dialed back a smidgen, and the other avatars brought up to that level to give a better representation of all the elements. I also think astral flows are way underpowered considering the lore of final fantasy and those move's history. Maybe that's what the 1200 gift should have been, Improved versions of those moves.

Edit: Also Nirvana 119 III is pointless, make it better.

[Zeargi]

It's not just that feint degrades over time, It also can only be up 1/4 of the time. Generally I only use it overwrite evasion up, but even then I think can't overwrite Distract II, but can be overwritten by Distract II, so there is probably evasion boosts it can't overwrite. Anyway what level the abilities were gotten at are irreverent. Thf gets its best ability at level 15, as for distract II they could have picked any arbitrary number over 49, it doesn't matter you are only using that spell at 99. And no, a smn should use Aerial Armor, it lasts 15 minutes, and they are out of range most of the fight anyway. Basically it's just an extra safety net in case something does happen. As for the number of shadows I'm going off what BG wiki says, and it says 3 at low levels otherwise 4. Really the only thing I agree on is Fenrir's moves being based on the moon phase being annoying.

As for what smn should be known for, it should be messing faces up with terrestrial avatars. Personally I think flaming crush needs to be dialed back a smidgen, and the other avatars brought up to that level to give a better representation of all the elements. I also think astral flows are way underpowered considering the lore of final fantasy and those move's history. Maybe that's what the 1200 gift should have been, Improved versions of those moves.

Edit: Also Nirvana 119 III is pointless, make it better.

Is there some Special SMN magic skill required for it, because the last 15 casting of it has only given me 3 shadows.

[Ulth]

Maybe? It wouldn't surprise me if the wiki was wrong. The information on feint was drastically wrong until September last year when Jeanpaul tested it, you could math it out with some tests if you really want to know.

[Zeargi]

Maybe? It wouldn't surprise me if the wiki was wrong. The information on feint was drastically wrong until September last year when Jeanpaul tested it, you could math it out with some tests if you really want to know.

Jeanpaul has been a boon for the player base both in and out of game. I'm still not sure what I'm missing, though. I've got over 500 skill which is listed as the head source. Maybe there's a piece of armor I'm not using that they are.

[Shirai]

I have no idea where the 3~4 comes from, as far as I am aware Aerial Armor has always been 3 shadows regardless of player or avatar level.
Neither do I remember it being changed.

[Camate]

1.) Do you mean that we can use basically 4 Blood Pacts (2 Wards, 2 Rages) in rapid succession and that way it would be used after to then reset cool down?
2.) If that's the case, does that mean the x2 MP cost is going to be removed?

Also, While a change like this is still good, it doesn't help with the potency of our Wards. Which is what most people are asking about. Our Attack Strength is pretty good ATM with some decent time put into it.

After this change takes place, Apogee would only reset the cool down timer for Blood Pact: Ward and Blood Pact: Rage. In other words, this is a complete redesign of the ability, and it would not be at all like it is at the moment.

So, to answer your question: yes, you will be able to use consequent Ward and Rage abilities by executing each, and then using Apogee. Furthermore we are planning to eliminate the increased MP cost as well.

Let us know your feedback!

[xiozen]

Wow impressive; this should help alleviate many of the issues I've been seeing brought to the fore regarding smn. Thanks for listening SE.

[Secondplanet]

After this change takes place, Apogee would only reset the cool down timer for Blood Pact: Ward and Blood Pact: Rage. In other words, this is a complete redesign of the ability, and it would not be at all like it is at the moment.

So, to answer your question: yes, you will be able to use consequent Ward and Rage abilities by executing each, and then using Apogee. Furthermore we are planning to eliminate the increased MP cost as well.

Let us know your feedback!

I think after our wards get an overhaul this could help smn's get a place in parties again. I won't complain about this upgrade to that ability.

[Fae]

Thank you for clarifying Camate and sorry for any troubles my reply may have caused I really appreciate you and the other community teams work. The increased mp cost was also noticeable when you double up on huge cost pacts so that's great too.

[Rydal]

So in the scenario where, assuming we have capped Blood Pact recast and Blood Pact recast 2 making our recast 30 secs: we have Garuda out, we use Blood Pact: Rage Predator Claws then Blood Pact: Ward Hastega, the recast timer on both is 30 secs. Now we use (new) Apogee, our recast timers are reset to 0 and we can use both again immediately and the recast will be 30 secs again or will it be whatever it would be for the first use?

Basically will the new Apogee give us free Blood Pact uses regardless of the recast timer (not resetting or interacting with the timer at all) or will it just reset the current timer to zero? I ask for clarification because the first change is more powerful than the second because it will essentially give us the ability to self-skillchain AND Magic Burst AND buff/heal in rapid succession effectively using ONLY our Avatars, at least while Apogee is usable (every 2-5mins I presume).

Another example to illustrate this:

30 second recast on Blood Pacts (both recasts capped)

Fenrir uses Ecliptic Growl (Ward) (Timer starts from 30)
Fenrir uses Crescent Fang (Rage) (Timer starts from 30)
Summoner uses Apogee (Both Blood Pacts are available again- recast timers are not tampered with)
Fenrir uses Moonlit Charge (Rage) (Timer continues from would be from the first use so let's say 15)
Skillchain Compression!
Fenrir uses Impact (Rage) (Timer starts from 30)
Magic Burst!

Not sure if you can actually self skillchain with a 15 second window but if you can, this will open up a lot for Summoners. They will be in same group as SCH or BLU to be able to self-skillchain for a limited time through the use of Job Abilities, which is a great boost SMN desperately needs. It would allow us to use up to 3 rages and/or wards in the span of 30 seconds per Apogee use, which is very similar to BST's Ready charges (they can already successfully self skillchain/magic burst with only their pets). With this new Apogee, we no longer have to choose between participating in the skillchain or Magic Bursting because now we can do both (every few minutes). If this is how Apogee will work, please let the recast timer be 5 minutes or less (preferably 2 minutes like Chain/Burst Affinity).

[Kensagaku]

The way it sounds is that it actually just resets the counters. So if you go and use Hastega II -> Predator Claws, then using Apogee will simply reset both BP cooldowns from their current timer to 0. It won't preserve the previous one, it will simply reset the timers. It still has more potency then current Apogee, especially if the MP cost boost is removed, because you can now get in four pacts in a very short period whenever Apogee is up as opposed to three, with no additional cost if their plans go through.

[dmuller30]

The way it sounds is that it actually just resets the counters. So if you go and use Hastega II -> Predator Claws, then using Apogee will simply reset both BP cooldowns from their current timer to 0. It won't preserve the previous one, it will simply reset the timers. It still has more potency then current Apogee, especially if the MP cost boost is removed, because you can now get in four pacts in a very short period whenever Apogee is up as opposed to three, with no additional cost if their plans go through.

Well the simple explanation is for example would be. Predator Claws > Apogee <Resets timer> >Predator claws > Predator claws so you could BP 3 times, it wouldn't be limited to Predator claws though lol.

[Zeargi]

Well the simple explanation is for example would be. Predator Claws > Apogee <Resets timer> >Predator claws > Predator claws so you could BP 3 times, it wouldn't be limited to Predator claws though lol.

I don't think that's how it's gonna work. I feel that it's going to reset the timer once for each ability. So if you use it while the Ward time is still at 0, it'll do nothing for it.

[Camate]

After further discussions and testing within the development team, they have decided that they will not be making the aforementioned changes to Apogee (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/50561-May-Update-Dissapointment?p=579218&viewfull=1#post579218). I apologize to those of you who were looking forward to this change. With that said though, they do feel that improvements to the usability of Blood Pacts are necessary, and they are currently in the midst of exploring other ways to address this. Once the plans have come together, I will make a follow-up.

[xiozen]

After further discussions and testing within the development team, they have decided that they will not be making the aforementioned changes to Apogee (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/50561-May-Update-Dissapointment?p=579218&viewfull=1#post579218). I apologize to those of you who were looking forward to this change. With that said though, they do feel that improvements to the usability of Blood Pacts are necessary, and they are currently in the midst of exploring other ways to address this. Once the plans have come together, I will make a follow-up.

Awww as sad as the announcement is for those summoners who were so looking forward to this; thank you for letting us know.

[Secondplanet]

After further discussions and testing within the development team, they have decided that they will not be making the aforementioned changes to Apogee (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/50561-May-Update-Dissapointment?p=579218&viewfull=1#post579218). I apologize to those of you who were looking forward to this change. With that said though, they do feel that improvements to the usability of Blood Pacts are necessary, and they are currently in the midst of exploring other ways to address this. Once the plans have come together, I will make a follow-up.

Sad to hear about apogee but glad to hear that bloodpacts are finally gonna get a review ^^ i wouldn't mind a new set of physical/magical BP's for our avatars since other jobs have gotten new weapon skills to match a new level of combat skills.

[Cabalabob]

Glad to see SMN getting some attention, really hoping our BP wards will get a buff. It's a shame about apogee I was coming around to the idea of this change after forgetting to use apogee before a BP a couple times >_>

[Shirai]

The Apogee thing is quite ok, would've been cool but in its current state Apogee is a good ability to have too.

As for pacts that need updating, I think I will put together a list of things for you to look at soon.
(This list will be mostly based on my personal opinion, my fellow summoners, feel free to debate some of my choices once I've made them or add your own once I have.)

[Secondplanet]

The Apogee thing is quite ok, would've been cool but in its current state Apogee is a good ability to have too.

As for pacts that need updating, I think I will put together a list of things for you to look at soon.
(This list will be mostly based on my personal opinion, my fellow summoners, feel free to debate some of my choices once I've made them or add your own once I have.)

I'll be looking forward to this list >^.^< not many summoners i can talk to on my server that know the job that well.

[Zeargi]

After further discussions and testing within the development team, they have decided that they will not be making the aforementioned changes to Apogee (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/50561-May-Update-Dissapointment?p=579218&viewfull=1#post579218). I apologize to those of you who were looking forward to this change. With that said though, they do feel that improvements to the usability of Blood Pacts are necessary, and they are currently in the midst of exploring other ways to address this. Once the plans have come together, I will make a follow-up.

Can they at least look into removing the Apogee MP+ effect at least while we wait for the other things?

[Shirai]

Dear Camate and Dev team,

Hereby a list of Blood Pacts, both Wards and Rages, I'd like you to take a look at improving.
Fellow Summoners, feel free to add your own input in this matter.

Blood Pact Wards (Defensive):
- Aerial Armor (Garuda) Level 25 - Having a few more shadows. Scaled by level would be nice if at all possible.
- Ecliptic Growl (Fenrir) Level 43 - Please increase the maximum values. I know that this idea might be a bit of a pain for the Lore lovers, but perhaps removing the moon phase mechanics and making the potency scale with level would be a good solution for this.
- Earthen Ward (Titan) Level 46 - This one desperately needs a boost to at least the non-augmented Stoneskin cap of a mage main job.
- Noctoshield (Diabolos) Level 49 - A flat -13 damage isn't going to make a healer's job a lot easier, preferably I'd like to see potency scaled with Level.
- Ecliptic Howl (Fenrir) Level 54 - See Ecliptic Growl.
- Dream Shroud (Diabolos) Level 56 - Maximum values definitely need to be increased, preferably scaled with level. And like with Fenrir's Moon Phase mechanic, perhaps it's time to abolish it for Diabolos too.

Blood Pact Wards (Offensive):
All of them - Please increase magic accuracy over the board, Summoner gets very little pet-macc gear as it is.
- Lunar Cry (Fenrir) Level 21 - Please increase maximum values. Perhaps abolish moon phase mechanic.
- Nightmare (Diabolos) Level 29 - The potency of Bio is a tad low, please scale this by level.
- Ultimate Terror (Diabolos) Level 37 - The stat drain needs a potency increase scaled by level.
- Diamond Storm (Shiva) Level 90 - Please change the flat -25 Evasion to a percentage.
- Pavor Nocturnus (Diabolos) Level 98 - For the love of whatever deity you worship, change this one to a Rage pact and instead of making it an extremely expensive Dispel make it do some dark damage instead when it does not KO a target.

For all of the above, if scaling's going to be used to increase the potency of the pacts please consider using the Avatar's level for this and not the player's main or iLevel. While it may not make a lot of difference, it will be an extra bone to those of us that have invested a lot of time and gil in making a Nirvana.

Blood pact Rage:
- Zantetsuken (Odin) Level 75 - Please sever its connection with Astral Flow and make it a seperately castable spell like Atomos. With the same recast time as Death. Heck, I wouldn't even mind if this were changed to a single target ability. Heck, this might even give us a place with the blms on mobs where the Death MB strategy is used.
- Level ? Holy (Cait Sith) Level 76 - I don't mind the randomness of the diceroll, really. But can you please change this pact to always do damage? Just make the diceroll decide the damage.
Related to the above is that us Summoners have a severe lack of powerfull AoE attacks, they are either tied to our Astral Flow Ability or are more miss than hit due to a quirky mechanic (See Level ? Holy). The only other viable option we have is Thunderspark, which by itself is fairly weak, even with proper gear.

By the way, a high level pact with Piercing attributes wouldn't be a bad thing either. (I'd say a change to Spinning Dive could be a viable option.)

[Clou777]

Would like to see Aerial Armor over time be scaled up to work like BLUs Occulation, Noctoshield really does need more than -13 dmg, Odin i think should do 9999 dmg when it doesnt instant KO an enemy as most of our BPs at 99 do well over 9999 damage nowadays anyway and this way will avoid a complete waste of the astral flow, as for Level?Holy i think it should do a typically decent amount of damage each time (maybe a tad above thunderspark) but when matched with a mobs level does double or triple damage.

[Zeargi]

I agree with a lot of the items Shirai mentioned, but I'm gonna repost and add some of my own: (New Wards marked with *)

Wards:
Heavenward Howl (Fenrir) - There needs to be a clear break of this. A ward like this isn't something needed when it comes to a fight. Hoping for one, but getting the other is extremely unfortunate. Make this one Endrain
Ethereal Beckoning (Diabolos) - Grants Enaspir to all Party Members within the area of effect * The other clear divide is that so few creatures in this game have MP, so why waste your time if you know that the thing you're fighting isn't going to give you a return.
Lunar Roar (Fenrir) - Scale up with SMN Magic Skill and offer 4-5 buffs removed.

Rages:
Regal Gash (Cait Sith) For a Level 99 ability it's awful DMG, even more so when you take into the fact that both Carbuncle and Cait Sith can beat the lvl cap of other Avatars. Both of these Avatars are Extremely weak for being Light. And Her attack also closes Darkness, very weird.
Blindside (Diabolos) - Also a lvl 99 Ability and it's just as bad as Regal Gash's DMG

Astral Flow - DMG for these need to be looked at

To tack onto Zantetsuken item mention:

Make Odin use Zantetsuken I - Single Target Death
Make Alexander use Mega Holy - Massive AoE Light DMG

But while under Astral Flow:
Odin uses Zantetsuken II (Perfect Zantetsuken) - AoE Death
Alexander will use Perfect Defense

Both casting of them Still Taking all MP.

[Zekander]

I know it's not really worth talking about, but I've been playing around with Atomos in ambuscade to take off the demon's dread spikes, and I was thinking that it might actually be somewhat useful if it would just speed the hell up. Cut the cast time down as low as it will go, like BLM stone, or even just to spirit cast time, and speed up the charge/discharge time so the whole thing happens in under 5 seconds rather then the 15-20 seconds it takes now.

Also, I'm rather partial to Carbuncle's Shining Ruby buff. +10% defense and static +4 MDB isn't nothing, and it especially helps trust tanks since they rely a lot more on defense values then player tanks do. It would be nice if it got a slight buff, but my biggest issue is that it is the only ward that cannot overwrite itself. I can't imagine why that is the case, but just fixing that would be a nice change in my opinion.

[Shirai]

To tack onto Zantetsuken item mention:

Make Odin use Zantetsuken I - Single Target Death
Make Alexander use Mega Holy - Massive AoE Light DMG

But while under Astral Flow:
Odin uses Zantetsuken II (Perfect Zantetsuken) - AoE Death
Alexander will use Perfect Defense

Both casting of them Still Taking all MP.

Actually, Zantetsuken Kai (Massive dark damage instead of Death) for a non-Astral Flow Pact would also be agreeable.

[Cabalabob]

Actually, Zantetsuken Kai (Massive dark damage instead of Death) for a non-Astral Flow Pact would also be agreeable.

Had this idea a while ago to make them have a non-astral flow attack, 1 min recast and requires all the summoner's mp.

Odin - geirrothr - 10000 needles
Alexander - gospel of the lost - AoE heal and removes all debuffs (including doom).

[Shirai]

Odin - geirrothr - 10000 needles


Thing is, in this day and age 10.000 damage to a single entity doesn't amount to anything.
Especially if the damage gets divided over more than one mob, Thunderspark would easily outdo it.

[Secondplanet]

I'm all for the prospect of using the mini forms of Alex and Odin as regular summons, atleast that way we might be able to have a light based avatar that can hopefully do decent light damage.

[Camate]

More adjustments are abound for summoners!

In the update to take place after today's version update, we are planning to make adjustments to Assault, Retreat, and Release so that the cool down for these abilities are reduced to 5 seconds. We hope that this improves usability a bit more.

[Frodnon]

More adjustments are abound for summoners!

In the update to take place after today's version update, we are planning to make adjustments to Assault and Release so that the cool down for these abilities are reduced to 5 seconds. We hope that this improves usability a bit more.

Can you also look into fixing the whole issue with assault flat out just not working?

Maybe also do something about Avatars going right back to attacking if Retreat pulls hate?

Retreat also should get a reduced timer.

[Mnejing]

Retreat also should get a reduced timer.
Retreat is also included, they accidently left it out in their translaton.

[Camate]

Retreat is also included, they accidently left it out in their translaton.

Thanks for pointing that out! I added it into my post.

[Fae]

Can you also look into fixing the whole issue with assault flat out just not working?

Maybe also do something about Avatars going right back to attacking if Retreat pulls hate?

Retreat also should get a reduced timer.

In my experience it works like this: If you use assault when the avatar is far away it seems to first retreat to you then assault the target (even though you only use assault). If your avatar is too far away, it ends up just retreating to you (even if the monster is in range for the command, it's like it "times out" on waiting to use the assault part).

For retreat, SMN avatars always protect them, even if you sleep the mobs it will immediately wake them up. The only way I've found to make it not do this is not be on the enmity list for the monsters at all. So basically have the avatar aggro them, don't get sight/sound aggrod and don't cast or do anything on the mob directly. It would be a definite quality of life improvement to have the avatar change behavior if you use retreat, especially for sleeping (often have to unsummon the avatar just to let stuff stay slept), on the other hand it could have unintended consequences we don't want if that happens so it's catch 22. I was going to try something where you can have the avatar assault something, then use retreat and sneak and invis yourself and run around linking adds and then aoe them mostly to avoid the fact if you pull a group to aoe, the avatar will never follow you. It seems SE might've thought of that tho as casting sneak or invis gives me hate, prism powders/sneak oils might still work though or stunning the mob while you sneak invis... so the only other way I've found is the first mob I pull I use flash or do enough damage to keep hate on me while I pull and the avatar will follow that around beating on it while I pull >.> Game mechanics are really interesting to me this way.

[Frodnon]

In my experience it works like this: If you use assault when the avatar is far away it seems to first retreat to you then assault the target (even though you only use assault). If your avatar is too far away, it ends up just retreating to you (even if the monster is in range for the command, it's like it "times out" on waiting to use the assault part).

For retreat, SMN avatars always protect them, even if you sleep the mobs it will immediately wake them up. The only way I've found to make it not do this is not be on the enmity list for the monsters at all. So basically have the avatar aggro them, don't get sight/sound aggrod and don't cast or do anything on the mob directly. It would be a definite quality of life improvement to have the avatar change behavior if you use retreat, especially for sleeping (often have to unsummon the avatar just to let stuff stay slept), on the other hand it could have unintended consequences we don't want if that happens so it's catch 22. I was going to try something where you can have the avatar assault something, then use retreat and sneak and invis yourself and run around linking adds and then aoe them mostly to avoid the fact if you pull a group to aoe, the avatar will never follow you. It seems SE might've thought of that tho as casting sneak or invis gives me hate, prism powders/sneak oils might still work though or stunning the mob while you sneak invis... so the only other way I've found is the first mob I pull I use flash or do enough damage to keep hate on me while I pull and the avatar will follow that around beating on it while I pull >.> Game mechanics are really interesting to me this way.


You're talking basic mechanics, although #1 isn't always the case.

I've had the avatar fail to assault when he was less than 5m from me, it often has to do with situations where i'm running towards a mob and issue the command at the 21m distance.

AS for #2, there's plenty of situations where i would like to sleepga an army, but releasing an av after is risky but keeping it out will wake one.
The problem is twofold, the sleep action only gives like 1 cumulative enmity on the target, and retreat gives a similar amount of hate. Simply put, sleepga and similar actions should probably generate more hate for the av, and retreat shouldn't generate any at all.

[Clou777]

imo, there are adjustments to summoners BloodPacts that are needed much more than adjustments to assault, retreat and release timers. It like going to a hospital crying with a broken leg and the doctor comes in and only gives you tissues to dry your eyes.

[Secondplanet]

So just started testing the cure potency of avatar cures and so far not really impressed, Just did Spring Water with max tp and healed for a whopping 657hp. I know it can cure status ailments as well but that is one very weak cure. Did Garuda's Whispering Wind with no tp and got 822hp back but gonna continue playing around as Garuda's might be better with TP backing it up.

*Added* Just tried Whispering Wind out with max TP and still healed for 822hp.

*Added round 2* Seems Healing Ruby II actually got an upgrade, Carby managed to heal me for 1366 which maxed out my HP so could go higher. Without TP it did 1040hp.

Anyone got any clarification on the wording for Spring Water and Whispering Wind? the whole "Adjustments have been made to healing potency and the TP adjustment has been changed to area-of-effect." is very vague.

[Annalise]

So just started testing the cure potency of avatar cures and so far not really impressed, Just did Spring Water with max tp and healed for a whopping 657hp. I know it can cure status ailments as well but that is one very weak cure. Did Garuda's Whispering Wind with no tp and got 822hp back but gonna continue playing around as Garuda's might be better with TP backing it up.

*Added* Just tried Whispering Wind out with max TP and still healed for 822hp.

*Added round 2* Seems Healing Ruby II actually got an upgrade, Carby managed to heal me for 1366 which maxed out my HP so could go higher. Without TP it did 1040hp.

Anyone got any clarification on the wording for Spring Water and Whispering Wind? the whole "Adjustments have been made to healing potency and the TP adjustment has been changed to area-of-effect." is very vague.

The wording means that Spring Water and Whispering wind now heal for more base HP. Increases in TP increase the AoE effect from the avatar. More TP = bigger range. Less TP = smaller range.
For Carbuncle, not only does it heal more base, but TP still increases the amount healed.

[Cabalabob]

Whispering wind before the buff would only heal for about 500-600 with max tp, so to be healing for 822 is quite a big buff for it, same with spring water which heals less than whispering wind but also removes debuffs, it's now healing for more than the old whispering wind.

[dmuller30]

So some further tests on

Carby healed me for 1520 HP on healing ruby without capped TP it was 200% which is a huge upgrade.

Garuda capped out for me at 1k.

Leviathan capped out at 800.

I think they can be higher with + summoning skill.

[Fae]

I'm enjoying the new potency on healing very much thank you for this update. Avatar max HP and Avatar TP are what decide how much are healed over the base rate. Apogee set has a lot to avatar HP, but takes from the master. You can get very big heals now, though if you equip apogee set to use the biggest heals you can, you can actually end up with less hp than you started before a heal. But it is a good way to up how much you heal to party members and the avatar itself. This was tested by another SMN before apogee set came out by going to abyssea and applying HP atma and buffs to the avatar, and I believe was mentioned by a dev/mod post as well. I like being able to fill my parties HP bar every 30s if needed, while it's not reliable healing, it can help counter large AoE damage to your party especially if solo and needing to save your trusts. I do not have any complaints of this and hope to see more wards looked at, thank you SE.