Suggestions to fix SMN.

[dmuller30]

I really love SMN but one thing I would like to see fixed is the BP timers. Every other job that has MP isn't limited by casting usage. You wouldn't make a very good BLM if your spells were set to a global timer "Cast fire" now every spell has to wait 30 seconds. Or WHM with cures. I think either we should have seperate timers per avatar or the timers should be lowered to 15 seconds, I mean even if our timers were lower our BP's consume MP, so we are still limited on how often we can use our BP's through our mp. And we also need our buffs to be over lvl 75! Why aren't these issues for SMN being fixed!?

[Secondplanet]

I have been on these boards for some time now asking for our Wards to get fixed as Diablos Phalanx is 12 reduction..... really 12? I don't mind BP timers but at the same time it would be nice if the timers went towards points that can be stored to 3 so we can choose how to space out the attacks. Also i find avatars defense a joke as any proper ilvl mob will kill off any avatar in 2-3 hits or one TP/AoE attack which makes using BP's hard to use as they could die before pulling off the attack.

Another thing that can be done to help update summoners is to update avatars favor to be more potent and to even add detrimental effects on monsters. But another thing i'm not sure if it effects things is that when i use BP's the icon for the avatar favor blinks making me wonder if it reset or not.

[Cabalabob]

BP timers really aren't that bad if you look at how they've evolved. Originally SMN only had BP, no rage and ward, so 1 move every minute. Then we got rage and ward for 2 BPs with a 1 min recast, then we got BP delay gear brining that down to 45 seconds, then BP delay II so we're now down to 30 seconds and we also have apogee and astral conduit which lets you SC and MB with your avatar now they have SC properties as well as just spam BPs back to back for a few seconds.

However I do like the idea of SMN being restricted by mp rather than timers. I used to want BPs to all be on their own timer, e.g. instead of BP: rage having a 1 min recast, every rage pact would have a 1 min recast. So if you used flaming crush it would have a 1 min recast but you could still use punch, double punch, meteor strike and conflag strike.

[VoiceMemo]

Mythic smns can put out alot of dmg, so I'm not sure how they would adjust smn without making mythic smns very OP

[Clou777]

mythic weapons are supposed to be OP, and BLMs can easily out damage nirvana smn as it stands

[VoiceMemo]

I would say SOME mythic weapons are very OP. Not all, I've pushed for years that Carnwenhan should do more for songs than just increase duration.

[Secondplanet]

Mythic smns can put out alot of dmg, so I'm not sure how they would adjust smn without making mythic smns very OP

Considering our avatars take 1-2 hits or 1 AoE from endgame content before they die makes all the power in the world useless.

[Dekusuta]

Maybe they'll let us to get 15 second timers eventually, but Apogee was actually buffed from 5 min to 3 min ability last fall.

Campestre's Cape (Amuscade cape) is easily one of the best BIS/full-time all around cape they added for any one job
Augmenting with +10 pet regen paired with a couple of telchine gear with +regen augments and pet dt boost and Isa belt gives my pets ~1% regen per tick. It's game changing in a lot of end-game things. I highly recommend it over haste (no point if your pet dies trying to get tp lol)

My pet current has -15% DT (plus JA and avatar PDT) and +17 regen on idle. I have an MP refresh build for when pet is not in danger, but i idle on regen and -DT most of the time.

Yes, avatars aren't going to survive needle type damage from certain NMs, but so are most jobs, but not all mobs have those abilities.

We're not the bastard child job anymore.

In a few days, we'll probably get another set of buffs to our wards :)

[Secondplanet]

i would go that way myself but would end up making me nothing more then a awesome looking blm. My current setup for smn gives my avatars 1181 accuracy and around 1200 attack before i eat food. I do have a DT taken set for when i need to hold something on my avatar which is around -20%DT and -7%PDT might be higher haven't really looked lately.
But i don't think we should have to rely on DT stuff which sacrifices accuracy/attack just to allow us to safely use a blood pact.

[Malichi]

A quick solution in my mind would be to add a trait to SMN that makes the pet immune to damage from the time the command is given to the time it lands, which in a lore sense, guarantees the pact is fulfilled. That and the Caller's Pendant could be slightly more potent in its TP gain, OR make the timer for Mana Cede lower.

[Secondplanet]

Something i would want them to give smn is a reverse mana cede effect so we can actually use weaponskills. Nirvana has a decent aftermath but expecting a smn to hit anything more then a rock and even then we could miss.

[Malichi]

I have been on these boards for some time now asking for our Wards to get fixed as Diablos Phalanx is 12 reduction..... really 12? I don't mind BP timers but at the same time it would be nice if the timers went towards points that can be stored to 3 so we can choose how to space out the attacks. Also i find avatars defense a joke as any proper ilvl mob will kill off any avatar in 2-3 hits or one TP/AoE attack which makes using BP's hard to use as they could die before pulling off the attack.

Another thing that can be done to help update summoners is to update avatars favor to be more potent and to even add detrimental effects on monsters. But another thing i'm not sure if it effects things is that when i use BP's the icon for the avatar favor blinks making me wonder if it reset or not.

Many BPs especially wards should have their potency overhauled, like Noctoshield for example, to scale with Summoning Magic Skill. For Noctoshield in particular should cap out around 25 in my opinion. But just so the RDM still has something to offer in this specific instance, make sure Phalanx and Phalanx II still overwrite. The other and probably simpler option would be to allow Noctoshield to stack with Phalanx or Phalanx II and if any balance issues arise place a hard cap on phalanx like buffs (a cap on the total damage reduction) Earthen Ward, Lightning Armor (stun proc) etcetera, all good examples of things that should be scaled. I don't want Summoner to replace anyone for any reason, just be able to keep up with everyone and remain as versatile and useful as it almost always has been.

[Malichi]

A quick solution in my mind would be to add a trait to SMN that makes the pet immune to damage from the time the command is given to the time it lands, which in a lore sense, guarantees the pact is fulfilled. That and the Caller's Pendant could be slightly more potent in its TP gain, OR make the timer for Mana Cede lower.

To clarify my vision of pact fulfillment: a pet be it Jug Pet, Luopan, Wyvern, or Avatar should be excluded from damage until they themselves gain enmity whatsoever. In the case of Luopans they would get on a mobs hate list with the first action a GEO performs after they are cast that would accrue enmity to begin with. For balance purposes this idea might need tinkering as technically Luopans don't act on anything. As for Avatars Jug Pets and Wynavs/Wyverns once given a command should be allowed to persist until that task is complete even if taking fatal damage. Then, once their dying deed is done, well, they die.

[dmuller30]

No one seems to have a problem with the timers but I do haha. Seriously watching my BLM friend spamming there 10-20k nukes while I have to wait 30 seconds to cast my own. Even on long fights BLM and any other DPS have the edge. On my BLU I can back to back CDC 10-20k the only timer I have is how fast I can get TP back but no matter what the occasion is it is definitely less than 30 seconds with just haste on I can spam 3+ times the amount of SMN's one BP, and that's without GEO's haste. Same goes for all my melee jobs that can use my BLU gear, I can spam WS's not to mention out dps my current SMN's auto attack considering my BLU hits for 200+ every hit at a super quick rate. And SMN only gets spike damage every 30 seconds I would say if we can't have the bp cool down timer down then raise the amount our avatars attack or give some DA / TA as a trait to our pet so that way we can keep up with other DPS. I love SMN to death but I feel that it is lack luster still compared to other DPS jobs. Also give them some defense! These new Escha mobs take down our avatars like flies.

[Secondplanet]

also a reverse Mana Cede could help us use weaponskills like Mykr and even Garland of Bliss since there is a 0 chance of us going in to get TP.

[dmuller30]

also a reverse Mana Cede could help us use weaponskills like Mykr and even Garland of Bliss since there is a 0 chance of us going in to get TP.

Yeah maybe even less the 0% chance of us going in to ws. . . . I think that would be an awesome idea.

[Cabalabob]

No one seems to have a problem with the timers but I do haha. Seriously watching my BLM friend spamming there 10-20k nukes while I have to wait 30 seconds to cast my own. Even on long fights BLM and any other DPS have the edge. On my BLU I can back to back CDC 10-20k the only timer I have is how fast I can get TP back but no matter what the occasion is it is definitely less than 30 seconds with just haste on I can spam 3+ times the amount of SMN's one BP, and that's without GEO's haste. Same goes for all my melee jobs that can use my BLU gear, I can spam WS's not to mention out dps my current SMN's auto attack considering my BLU hits for 200+ every hit at a super quick rate. And SMN only gets spike damage every 30 seconds I would say if we can't have the bp cool down timer down then raise the amount our avatars attack or give some DA / TA as a trait to our pet so that way we can keep up with other DPS. I love SMN to death but I feel that it is lack luster still compared to other DPS jobs. Also give them some defense! These new Escha mobs take down our avatars like flies.

It's not really fair to compare SMN to other dps that way, yes BLM can blast out nukes, but they are far more mp costly than our BP and barely more powerful, and when a BLM is out of mp they contribute 0 anything. No dps or utility. When SMN is out of mp, which will take a lot longer than a BLM going nuke happy, they can still pop avatar's favour and give the party a buff while they recover in a refresh set and maybe even still throw in some cheap wards.

BLU is the same, it can spam spells but when it's out of mp it's just a gimpy melee, yes it's melee is stronger than SMN but it's also at far greater risk, it has to be in AoE range to melee, SMN just has to send an expendable pet into AoE range to be a melee, and btw there is pet gear with double attack, haste etc. On it you just gotta go out there and find it.

SMN is not a burst DD like those jobs, it's a sustainable damage risk free job with support capabilities.

[dmuller30]

It's not really fair to compare SMN to other dps that way, yes BLM can blast out nukes, but they are far more mp costly than our BP and barely more powerful, and when a BLM is out of mp they contribute 0 anything. No dps or utility. When SMN is out of mp, which will take a lot longer than a BLM going nuke happy, they can still pop avatar's favour and give the party a buff while they recover in a refresh set and maybe even still throw in some cheap wards.

BLU is the same, it can spam spells but when it's out of mp it's just a gimpy melee, yes it's melee is stronger than SMN but it's also at far greater risk, it has to be in AoE range to melee, SMN just has to send an expendable pet into AoE range to be a melee, and btw there is pet gear with double attack, haste etc. On it you just gotta go out there and find it.

SMN is not a burst DD like those jobs, it's a sustainable damage risk free job with support capabilities.

Gear DA / TA different then starting out with an initial value from a trait then stacking gear DA / TA to that. And as far as BLU and BLM. BLU's primary DPS is not magic it is CDC and BLU lasting in a fight isn't that hard because it is self healing self buffing and the list goes on and on with that job including any job traits that it self synthesizes . BLM I never see them run out of mp so I don't see mp = 0 BLMs ever. As for our pets I don't know how many times I have BPed and bam my pet is dead, that is 0 dps they seem to die in a few hits just from an AOE sometimes one hit from an AOE which is a wasted BP and 0 dps for that BP. Let's not mention all the enfeebs they have to endure while trying to BP. With your statement I we are just going to have to agree to disagree on that one, because I feel SMN is still weaker in the grand scheme of things compared to other DPS jobs, because lets be real SMN as a viable support was over at lvl 75 so that makes it a DPS class who in whole is usually under the rest.

[Rydal]

It's not really fair to compare SMN to other dps that way, yes BLM can blast out nukes, but they are far more mp costly than our BP and barely more powerful, and when a BLM is out of mp they contribute 0 anything. No dps or utility. When SMN is out of mp, which will take a lot longer than a BLM going nuke happy, they can still pop avatar's favour and give the party a buff while they recover in a refresh set and maybe even still throw in some cheap wards.

BLU is the same, it can spam spells but when it's out of mp it's just a gimpy melee, yes it's melee is stronger than SMN but it's also at far greater risk, it has to be in AoE range to melee, SMN just has to send an expendable pet into AoE range to be a melee, and btw there is pet gear with double attack, haste etc. On it you just gotta go out there and find it.

SMN is not a burst DD like those jobs, it's a sustainable damage risk free job with support capabilities.

BLM NEVER run out of MP and if they do, they shouldn't be playing this game. With so much refresh gear, Aspir, CONVERT?, Myrkr and Damage to MP gear, I haven't ever even heard of that.

BLU is the only DD currently that can survive in high level content and still do great damage. BLU NEVER spams spells for damage unless they're cleaving and even then, they never run out of MP if they know what they're doing. Gimpy melee? How about the best melee in the game right now? Stacking Dual wield 5, Store TP 5, Attack Bonus 4-5, Accuracy bonus 4-5, Crit atk bonus 4-5, Double attack, Triple attack, Skillchain bonus 3+ and whatever other bonuses all on one job? No other melee job with equal gear can touch BLU. They can pretty much self-skillchain consistently without using chain affinity or BLU spells/other JAs.

Comparing THAT to SMN? Ridiculous. SMN has no melee support outside their avatars. They have longer timers on their attacking and support abilities than BST. A BST pet can self-skillchain AND magic burst without having to wait for Ready to recharge. SCH can do the same without needing to be in range dangerous attacks. SMN has to pick if they want to help open or close a SC or MB once (maybe twice if they use their JA). We have to 1hr in order to self-SC AND MB in the same chain.

SMN is being limited because of their versatility (SE logic). They're able to heal, buff, debuff, attack physically and magically, skillchain and magic burst. Funny how other jobs are just as versatile but don't have such a heavy limitation and in some cases get much better boons (BLU, GEO, SCH).

[dmuller30]

BLM NEVER run out of MP and if they do, they shouldn't be playing this game. With so much refresh gear, Aspir, CONVERT?, Myrkr and Damage to MP gear, I haven't ever even heard of that.

BLU is the only DD currently that can survive in high level content and still do great damage. BLU NEVER spams spells for damage unless they're cleaving and even then, they never run out of MP if they know what they're doing. Gimpy melee? How about the best melee in the game right now? Stacking Dual wield 5, Store TP 5, Attack Bonus 4-5, Accuracy bonus 4-5, Crit atk bonus 4-5, Double attack, Triple attack, Skillchain bonus 3+ and whatever other bonuses all on one job? No other melee job with equal gear can touch BLU. They can pretty much self-skillchain consistently without using chain affinity or BLU spells/other JAs.

Comparing THAT to SMN? Ridiculous. SMN has no melee support outside their avatars. They have longer timers on their attacking and support abilities than BST. A BST pet can self-skillchain AND magic burst without having to wait for Ready to recharge. SCH can do the same without needing to be in range dangerous attacks. SMN has to pick if they want to help open or close a SC or MB once (maybe twice if they use their JA). We have to 1hr in order to self-SC AND MB in the same chain.

SMN is being limited because of their versatility (SE logic). They're able to heal, buff, debuff, attack physically and magically, skillchain and magic burst. Funny how other jobs are just as versatile but don't have such a heavy limitation and in some cases get much better boons (BLU, GEO, SCH).

This is the crap that I am talking why have SE been putting SMN on the back burner for so long. To me and I know this isn't everyone, I feel as if SMN always gets shafted on the updates. Why not just have someone sit down and play it so they can see what's wrong with it and see if they want to deal with the SMN garbage we have to deal with. I mean it isn't as bad as it used to be there was no gear to help our pets lol, but still there is a bunch that needs to be fixed.

-Timer needs to be lowered at least enough to SC like BST
-Buffs needs to be fixed and taken off cap. Its been since lvl 75! WHY WHY WHY hasn't this been fixed yet?! It makes no sense 75 was how many years ago?!
-Our pets HP and resistance need to be fixed
-Stop giving us stuff for elementals . . . . WE DON'T EVEN USE THEM! Well at least I don't keep them out I just siphon them, I don't see any SMN in my group even using those things.

If they lower the time for our BP's or increase the HP/Resistance then maybe they could increase the timer on our Avatars? Maybe make a healing JA for our pets or we can feed it food that heals them ? Idk something just needs to be fixed with this job because it has been so long since this job has had a proper adjustments and SE owes the SMN community some balance to this job.

[Secondplanet]

Stop giving us stuff for elementals . . . . WE DON'T EVEN USE THEM! Well at least I don't keep them out I just siphon them, I don't see any SMN in my group even using those things.

I actually love my elementals, they are the best thing if i need to create distance between the monster and me fast with minimal effort. Just summon one, let it auto attack to get monster off you and then you RUN till a safe distance to summoner a proper avatar.

[Urmom]

Elementals have potential. Did some testing awhile back though that was disappointing. iirc some problems were they used worse dmg formulas than players for dmg, they ran out of mp, and min recast time was huge no matter how much gear you had. If you made the spells have the same formula as players and allow all recast gear to count with no cap might be some cool stuff you could do

[dmuller30]

I actually love my elementals, they are the best thing if i need to create distance between the monster and me fast with minimal effort. Just summon one, let it auto attack to get monster off you and then you RUN till a safe distance to summoner a proper avatar.

With a good fast cast set you can cast a proper SMN as quick as a spirit well at least I can. But I mean I do a ton of end game stuff with 2 other SMN and we don't ever pull them out maybe siphon but that's about it. But I do see your point I have used an elemental to escape once or twice but that was very long ago. But there time could be used on more useful things like giving use better stats for the avatars we actually do use, upgrading their buffs etc.

[dmuller30]

Elementals have potential. Did some testing awhile back though that was disappointing. iirc some problems were they used worse dmg formulas than players for dmg, they ran out of mp, and min recast time was huge no matter how much gear you had. If you made the spells have the same formula as players and allow all recast gear to count with no cap might be some cool stuff you could do

They do have potential but unless they get a major face lift they aren't going to be useful which is sad because they could do well against escha mobs that are weak against their elements. This whole job needs a face lift. . . .

[Zeargi]

They do have potential but unless they get a major face lift they aren't going to be useful which is sad because they could do well against escha mobs that are weak against their elements. This whole job needs a face lift. . . .

The Light Spirit is one of the more useful ones, but the biggest problem is that it doesn't gain access to higher Regen Spells, and it can't be controlled. People have been asking for a while to give SMN the Dual Spirits, and it would be AMAZING if you could actually issue commands. Also I REALLY wish that they'd give the Light Spirit Protectra and Shellra. PUP gets it with their WHM Auto...

I will agree, as well, there are a lot of things that SMN could greatly use either by fixing previous wards, or giving newer ones that make up the difference. >_> But I've also posted a few things other things I'd like to see. *CoughFenrirsstupidmoonphasestuffcough*

[Zeargi]

So, I see that SMN is on the block again. I am wondering what it is this go. Hopefully it'll be something that takes the wards and a few of more recent Rages (Diabolos -Blindside, Cait Sith - Regal Gash) up to the levels they should be at 76+

[Brixy]

Summoner has always been a job that I really enjoyed playing, but couldn't help feeling it was an incomplete concept. It has been adjusted over the years and has become a LOT better than it use to be, but it still feels like the job is missing a lot of things. The main issue I have with the job is that most of our avatars are never used other than niche situations or for a ward and released 2 seconds later. When was the last time anyone actually used Titan for damage or his favor? Leviathan? Diabolos?... Cait Sith? When was the last time you wasted your 1hr on Odin? What are elementals even suppose to do other than be a siphon slave for life (excluding light for pro/shell V)? To truly fix SMN, you have to revamp the foundation it's built on.

Summoner adjustment ideas:

Stop adding useless bloodpacts.
RNG damage that may miss entirely and RNG death that WILL miss are useless and an insult that someone actually took the time to add them.
Avatar's benefit from their favor:
This should have always been the case.

Ward recast reduced to 5 seconds.
Faster buff times. No point in a 20~ second recast when wards are non-damaging. The 1 issue I could maybe see is Cait Sith's tp reset.

Thunderspark equivalent for all avatars:
If anything from the list happens it needs to be this. Thunder is not effective against everything...

Add Tier VI elemental magic and additional effects to our merit Bloodpacts:
Additional effects would still make our merit bloodpacts useful and give more reason to merit one over the other.

Avatar's Pressure:
A new ability that is tied with Avatar's Favor. Instead of adding a buff aura to your avatar it adds a debuff aura. Favor/Pressure overwrite each other and share a timer. Adds a reason to use different avatars and it would be very easy to Implement.

New pet command: Bloodpact: Assist [1 min recast, can't be reduced]
Summons a temporary avatar along side your current avatar and attemps to open/close a skillchain. The idea is to list rages such as Flaming Crush, Predator Claws, Volt Strike, ect... and picking one would summon the corresponding avatar to use the bloodpact and disappear after. Using Predator Claws and choosing Assist: Flaming Crush would result in a light skillchain for example.

You could do some fun combos with apogee to include magic bursts also!
Mountain Buster > Assist: Rush > Geocrush to magicburst and stun!


Avatar Adjustments:

Carbuncle

Holy Mist: additional effect defense down.
Dia II/III aura with Avatar's Pressure.
New Ward that acts like Lux. Gives enlight and increased resistance to dark damage.
Carbuncle is now useful as a defense down debuffer.


Diabolos

Raise the potency of Noctoshield. I can literally match the potency naked as /rdm and beat it with gear.
Change Pavor Nocturnus entirely... Death always misses and Fenrir can already dispel multiple buffs for a lot less mp.
Pavor Nocturuns: Lowers the target's accuracy and attack. Also lower's magic accuracy and magic attack if the target is asleep.
Remove the time/day RNG from Dream Shroud. Make it a constant +15 MAB and MDB
Drain II/III Bloodpact: Rage.
New Ward that acts like Tenebrae. Gives endark and increased resistance to light damage.
Bio II/III aura with Avatar's Pressure.
Diabolos could be a tanky avatar with phalanx, bio, attack down, and drain.


Garuda

Wind Blade: Additional effect silence.
Flurryga II ward. RNGs and CORs need love!
Gravity ward
New Ward that acts like Flabra. Gives enaero and increased resistance to earth damage.
Evasion Down aura with Avatar's Pressure.
Garuda is already one of our best avatars so shes does not need much. Flurry to buff rng needs to happen.


Shiva

Rush: additional effect magic defense down.
Heavenly Strike: additional effect magic evasion down.
Store tp ward
Sleepga II ward.
New Ward that acts like Gelus. Gives enblizzard and increased resistance to wind damage.
INT down aura with Avatar's Pressure.
Shiva could be a great mage focused support this way.


Titan

Breakga Ward
Regain Ward
Magic Shield Ward
Geocrush: Applies a DoT that deals 25% of the total damage dealt. (Weaker version of a helix spell)
New Ward that acts like Tellus. Gives enstone and increased resistance to thunder damage.
Rasp aura with Avatar's Pressure. (-30 hp/tic at max potency)
Titan would be a supportive Avatar focused on DoT damage.


Ramuh

Thunderstorm: additional effect paralyze.
New Ward that acts like Sulpor. Gives enthunder and increases resistance to water damage. (Replaces rolling thunder)
Accuracy Down aura with Avatar's Pressure.
Ramuh is already a great avatar so he needs very little adjustments.


Ifrit

Meteor Strike: Additional effect plague.
New Ward that acts like Ignis. Gives enfire and increases resistance to ice. (Replaces Inferno Howl)
Attack Down aura with Avatar's Pressure.
Ifrit is already a great avatar so he needs very little adjustments.


Leviathan

Drain samba ward (like Fenrir's Heavenward Howl)
Grand Fall: additional effect poison.
Spring Water: adds a stoneskin effect. (like Afflatus Solace)
New Ward that acts like Unda. Gives enwater and increased resistance to fire damage.
Magic Attack Down aura with Avatar's Pressure.
Leviathan would be a supportive avatar focused on healing.


Fenrir

Heavenward Howl: Remove moonphase from calculations and only gives mp drain. (Goes with the Leviathan adjustment)
Lunar Bay: Absorbs damage dealt to HP.
Eclipse Bite: Additional effect steal 1 beneficial effect.
Lunar Cry: Remove moonphase from calculations for a flat -30 acc and eva.
Ecliptic Howl: Remove moonphase from calculations for a flat +30 acc and eva.
Blind aura with Avatar's Pressure.
Fenrir is held back mainly because the moonphase can render his wards useless.


Cait Sith

Level ? Holy: No longer misses and deals the same damage on all rolls. Additional effect based on dice number.
1-3: No additional effect. 4-5: Blind. 6: Sleep.
Regal Gash: Increase damage and change skillchain properties to Light/Fragmentation.
Garland of Bliss > Regal Gash > Regal Gash for double light
Regen IV/V ward
Raise and Reraise III wards.
Magic Defense Down aura with Avatar's Pressure.
Cait Sith is a joke avatar in most cases because of poor physical damage and RNG rolls on magic damage that could miss entirely. She is only useful for Reraise and occasional strats abusing tp resets.


Atomos

Reduce the time it takes to use Deconstruct and Chronoshift.
Increase the amount of buffs transferred.

[Zeargi]

I agree with most of these. More AoE Pacts outside of Astral Flow would be extremely nice, but some of the Wards and such don't make sense. Regain is light based spell and Magic Shield is a Darkness base, so they don't really fit with Titan, and Geocrush already has an Additional: Effect Stun (Another DoT Might be Useful though). Leviathen's Drain Samba would better fit Fenrir or Diabolos, and Springwater also has an additional effect already of removing quite a few debuffs including Petrify. Likewise some of the pressures are a little more useful than others. Fenrir's blind effect is overshadowed by Ramuh's Acc Down, and wouldn't it be better for Shiva to receive MAB- since she gives MAB+ and give Levithan MACC- , and Titan maybe a DEF- pressure if Geocrush is going to get a DoT added? Like I side, I like and agree with many of these. The Moonphase and Midnight/Day has always sucked. Maybe give Titan a Max HP ward, or Perhaps a Slowga II effect somehow? I'd also like to see Pacifying Ruby get a major boost to the Enmity- Effect it gives. Oh, Increase the number and tell us how many buffs get removed with Lunar Roar

[Jakuk]

More stealing from jobs with very little already. New ideas would be better.

Also surely Titan should be the tank, not Diabolos.

[rufuslupus]

Square said long ago the reason why the avatars didn't benefit from their own favors was because they didn't want people to favor 1 element or avatar over the other. Same reasoning for a lot of other problems.

If I could change favor for the better, i would have it as a choice to pick which target the favor emits from, the summoner or the avatar. Selecting the avatar is the same as how favor works now.

If you place the favor on the summoner, it gives the summoner that specific avatar's favor as a dispellable buff that any avatar can benefit from. For example you summon ifrit and use his favor for double attack. You then summon leviathan who now benefits from double attack.

[Brixy]

I agree with most of these. More AoE Pacts outside of Astral Flow would be extremely nice, but some of the Wards and such don't make sense. Regain is light based spell and Magic Shield is a Darkness base, so they don't really fit with Titan, and Geocrush already has an Additional: Effect Stun (Another DoT Might be Useful though). Leviathen's Drain Samba would better fit Fenrir or Diabolos, and Springwater also has an additional effect already of removing quite a few debuffs including Petrify. Likewise some of the pressures are a little more useful than others. Fenrir's blind effect is overshadowed by Ramuh's Acc Down, and wouldn't it be better for Shiva to receive MAB- since she gives MAB+ and give Levithan MACC- , and Titan maybe a DEF- pressure if Geocrush is going to get a DoT added? Like I side, I like and agree with many of these. The Moonphase and Midnight/Day has always sucked. Maybe give Titan a Max HP ward, or Perhaps a Slowga II effect somehow? I'd also like to see Pacifying Ruby get a major boost to the Enmity- Effect it gives. Oh, Increase the number and tell us how many buffs get removed with Lunar Roar

Shiva has sleepga which is a dark aligned spell and Leviathan has slowga which is an earth based spell. Their elements don't matter nearly as much as the concept. Titan is a defensive oriented avatar with only 2 wards currently. Stoneskin and a scherzo. Giving him a magic shield option shouldn't be that big of a stretch. Regain was mainly there because titan is useless most of the time... Which sucks because he is my favorite avatar lol.

I like the max HP ward idea for Titan though! A mini mantra could help sponge some high damage attacks.

[Zeargi]

Shiva has sleepga which is a dark aligned spell and Leviathan has slowga which is an earth based spell. Their elements don't matter nearly as much as the concept. Titan is a defensive oriented avatar with only 2 wards currently. Stoneskin and a scherzo. Giving him a magic shield option shouldn't be that big of a stretch. Regain was mainly there because titan is useless most of the time... Which sucks because he is my favorite avatar lol.

I like the max HP ward idea for Titan though! A mini mantra could help sponge some high damage attacks.

Shiva getting Sleepga still makes sense, because people get lured out into Blizzards, and get tired and pass out. Even Leviathan's Slow can be justified when you think of swimming through a Riptide can hender movement. I'd love to have a Slowga II of sorts, Really pile on the Debuffs. I was also thinking of maybe a Provoke type BP, but that would likely go on Ifrit.

As for the MAX HP up: I called the Ward: Terra Bulwark. Cheesy but I liked it. :3

[Teraniku]

Shiva getting Sleepga still makes sense, because people get lured out into Blizzards, and get tired and pass out. Even Leviathan's Slow can be justified when you think of swimming through a Riptide can hender movement. I'd love to have a Slowga II of sorts, Really pile on the Debuffs. I was also thinking of maybe a Provoke type BP, but that would likely go on Ifrit.

As for the MAX HP up: I called the Ward: Terra Bulwark. Cheesy but I liked it. :3

Better and more Cheesy: Sanctuary of Stone

[Zeargi]

Better and more Cheesy: Sanctuary of Stone

Make it Stone Sanctuary to fit the rest of the BP and we might have something to work with.

[Secondplanet]

I'm still waiting for our other blood pact wards to get updated like our healing ones, If SE could update them to make them FINALLY be level 99 skills they can easily do the others. And for anyone who talks about it would be hard to balance them to not make them too strong all i can say is this game is completely unbalanced so why would it matter. Its broken in so many ways when every event boils down to 4-5 specific jobs and BLU's still solo most content or zerg it mindlessly.

Also they should change Odin and Alexander into just regular summon spells like Atomos that we don't need our 2hr to use since BLM now has death i think Odin should get his time again and give him a similar chance to work on NM's

[Nyarlko]

I always thought Odin's attack was essentially Death-ga :x Instant KO chance on normal mobs with high dark damage on KO failure. (BLM Death has a 0% chance of KO-proc on anything tagged as an NM btw.) Converting him to a standard always-out avatar would be fun tho. Might be nice to have a fully physical damage offensive avatar.

[Zeargi]

I always thought Odin's attack was essentially Death-ga :x Instant KO chance on normal mobs with high dark damage on KO failure. (BLM Death has a 0% chance of KO-proc on anything tagged as an NM btw.) Converting him to a standard always-out avatar would be fun tho. Might be nice to have a fully physical damage offensive avatar.

Death and Zantetsuken both work in the same way, dealing Dark DMG if something can't be killed. Which are likely one of the best sources of dark damage outside of Kaustra. Though, Odin's "AoE" is a very thin cone and I'm not sure is they ever let it go beyond 9999 dmg.

I still want Bahamut. He's need to be summonable just like the others. It's about time he joined the fight. He'd be a beastly physical attacker.

On a side note, I finally got to see the Emp. Blood Boon Effect take place. It greatly extended the timer for the wards I cast, got an 11m Shining Ruby and a 9m Crystal Blessing. I hope when they reforge this set, it ups that proc quite a bit more. Hell, I feel the Blood Boon should have been added to the Nirvana 119-III, would have been better than what it got.

[Nyarlko]

I could swear I got higher numbers when I played around w/ Odin when I first unlocked him, but I guess I could be wrong :/

[Brixy]

I would love if they adjusted Odin and removed him from being locked to astral flow. He is 100% useless currently and was honestly never that great to begin with. If I have to pick between Alexander and Odin I will ALWAYS pick Alexander. Give him the Atomos treatment and make him a 1 and done spell with a 20-30 second recast. This would give you something to do between your bloodpact: rage timers. Could do the same thing with Siren since they don't want to go through the 5 min effort to copy paste her to Summoner. Let her use Clarsach Call to deal damage and buff the party then disappear. We need more AoE attacks and these are 2 solutions to the problem.

I would also like to see the MAB that was originally on Nirvana added back. The original weapon was focused on increasing magic damage and now it only wins on physical bloodpacts. It falls way behind on decently augmented staffs for magic damage which translates to "never attack with your avatar or bother with aftermath if you are using magic pacts because you will constantly reset your tp". This severely hinders the use of myrkr and storing tp to open skillchains for our avatars to close. If I'm in a magic burst focused group I either have to be the one doing the skillchain or just sit back and twiddle my fingers waiting to magic burst because I keep swapping weapons and losing tp/aftermath. I'm not asking for it to blow a perfectly augmented Grioavolr out of the water, but being competitive or slightly ahead would be good.

[Secondplanet]

OK SE, you showed us that you can remove the caps off of BRD spells to make it compete with todays game so when is summoner FINALLY going to get the same treatment? So far you only uncapped some of our healing wards but have yet to uncap our other wards and most of out BP's are still underwhelming despite the update to how TP effects them.

[Songen]

considering smn can spam BP's that deal 30-60k (Without MB), 99,999 with MB with geo every 20seconds. add on their wards enhance alot with more summoning skill along with their timers. the magic evasion reduction today makes all jobs that needs to land spells INCLUDING summoner enfeeble magic more viable while also enhancing their base dmg with the mobs lowered combat/magic skill along with this update.
The BP tp nerf they did 2-4 months ago is slightly lowered with this update which makes them actually near not nerfed. if anything that nerf before was intended specificly for this update (Highly unlikely but possible).

There are SMALL things smn needs right now, its those things that need to be discussed here, however its nothing really in comparison to what brd needed, this update was to bring brd inline with all the other jobs that could step up for endgame and high level content .

If your summoner isn't dealing those dmg amounts or better while also high levels of enhancing magic, and as of now, better enfeeble magic, then your gear sucks or your failing to macro your summoner correctly

[Secondplanet]

considering smn can spam BP's that deal 30-60k (Without MB), 99,999 with MB with geo every 20seconds. add on their wards enhance alot with more summoning skill along with their timers. the magic evasion reduction today makes all jobs that needs to land spells INCLUDING summoner enfeeble magic more viable while also enhancing their base dmg with the mobs lowered combat/magic skill along with this update.
The BP tp nerf they did 2-4 months ago is slightly lowered with this update which makes them actually near not nerfed. if anything that nerf before was intended specificly for this update (Highly unlikely but possible).

There are SMALL things smn needs right now, its those things that need to be discussed here, however its nothing really in comparison to what brd needed, this update was to bring brd inline with all the other jobs that could step up for endgame and high level content .

If your summoner isn't dealing those dmg amounts or better while also high levels of enhancing magic, and as of now, better enfeeble magic, then your gear sucks or your failing to macro your summoner correctly

Not saying BRD didn't need this update but when you think about many of summoners wards they are not even worth the mp, with things like Titans stone skin and Diablos's phalanx still having low numbers despite the massive increase to summoning magic skill and player level these should get an update. As for the BP rage tp comment i made it was more directed at the avatars lower tier attacks, just because they're lower level blood pacts that cost less shouldn't mean they can't do decent damage. Still stuck having to use the high cost attacks to deal damage. Either that or give avatars another set of magic attacks as our main decent ones are still our merit ones.

[Songen]

so allow BP wards to scale depending on the ward type such as nocshield etc, that is something worth adjusting
And as for t1 BPs spells, they should scale with mp cost much like black mages scale too lower teir will ALWAYS deal less damage (While blm does get a body piece that converts dmg to mp, its only shines on MBs, other wise its minimal in comparison), BP gear does take its damage up a fair notch so shouldn't be complaining why you can't save mp using low teir BPs while fighting WoC, higher damage requires higher mp simple fact (T6 black mage nuke costs well over 400 mp as a example, thats 1/3rd-4th of their mp in one hit). The same goes for physical BPs, lower teirs should be dealing less dmg than higher teirs, even after they adjusted normal WSs to deal more damage, lower teirs attained higher damage but still retained lower damage than higher tier. hell, even tho beastmasters can reduces their timers to 15secs, their damage is severly limited by removing 2 slots for attack/acc gear for recast gear (Which causes the level penalty to increase), and the master MUST be in close range of pet to get commands off (Its this closeness that removed bst as a common event job after the nerf), smn compensates its ability to dish out extremely heavy dmg (If done right)every 20 seconds with the cost of mp and the fact they can stand at fair distance away while using BPs makes it more desirable, if you are having problems with mp so much, you need to work on your gear, for elemental syphon, base refresh after perpectuation, if you sub sch, you need to have a set for dark arts aspir too. there are so many options, even ones i haven't mentioned.

Be aware smn is both a offence and enhancing job, one thing i will agree with you is its healing wards need to be enhances somewhat so its healing factor can get up'd to standards,

[Brixy]

Summoner's damage output is fine. Summoner overall is in a pretty good spot currently. I wish I could say that I couldn't complain but I would be lying... A lot. I wouldn't mind seeing avatar melee damage go up some because it's pretty abysmal but it's hard to be mad when I'm hitting 99k flaming crushes or 99k magic bursts with the right support. There is a lot of other things I can complain about though...

-Nirvana is useless for magic bloodpacts which makes it really hard to use the aftermath or save tp for Myrkr if you plan on magic bursting because you swap Nirvana out. MAB needs to be added back to the weapon like it originally had... Bloodpact damage +40 and mab+90 puts it right around the same damage as an augmented Grioavolr (That should tell you how far behind Nirvana is...). Was +1 is a slap in the face to Nirvana owners btw so thanks for that.

-Avatar enmity issues. Why do I pull enmity off my avatar with dia or a melee swing after it does 30k+ in damage from a bloodpact. This is really annoying when I am playing solo and also extremely exploitable in a party. In omen for Fu boss our group literally take 2 summoners and astral conduit it to death because Ifrit doesn't pull any enmity off the tank for spamming 99k Flaming Crushes... Where as any regular dd (not named rng) goes in and does 1 ws and immediately gets one shot for it. Idk whether to complain because it's annoying for solo or thank the devs that such an exploitable thing has been around for years and they don't seem to care.

-useless bloodpacts and avatars. We have bloodpacts that are beyond terrible/gimmicky such as ??? Holy and Pavor Nocturunus when we could use things like Flurryga for Garuda. Odin is absolutely terrible and Alexander is not really worth wasting Astral Flow on anymore either. The stat boost from Astral Flow is better paired with Astral Conduit for bloodpact spam. No avatar even comes close to Ifrit in terms of raw damage output so Ifrit usually outclasses every other avatar in non-mb situations if you do not need the utility they offer (Ramuh's stun / Garuda's aoe cure).

-Level 75 ward potency in 2017... really?

-Pet command to prevent my avatar from attacking things would be lovely. Pressing Retreat 50 times and having my avatar constantly refuse to come back even if the thing it's fighting isn't targeting me is really stupid.

-Nerf Astral Conduit into the ground and actually fix things that are wrong with Summoner. This 1hr is extremely broken and is one of the main reasons people think that Summoner is fine as a job. Make Apogee a 1 min cooldown so we can use it more for self avatar skillchains. I would literally trade my broken Astral Conduit for this 1 adjustment in a heartbeat. I'd rather play the job, not the 1hr.

-Siren and Phoenix lol. Maybe add an Unbridled Learning type ability to Summoner that lets you summon higher tiered avatars like Odin, Alexander, Siren, Bahamut, and Phoenix. There is no reason to have Odin and alexander tied to 1hrs anymore. They are not worth wasting Astral Flow on and Ramuh's Thunderspark deals more damage than Zantetsuken on anything that matters... Could make new high tier battlefields and winning them rewards you with their pact to use.

[Zeargi]

so allow BP wards to scale depending on the ward type such as nocshield etc, that is something worth adjusting
And as for t1 BPs spells, they should scale with mp cost much like black mages scale too lower teir will ALWAYS deal less damage (While blm does get a body piece that converts dmg to mp, its only shines on MBs, other wise its minimal in comparison), BP gear does take its damage up a fair notch so shouldn't be complaining why you can't save mp using low teir BPs while fighting WoC, higher damage requires higher mp simple fact (T6 black mage nuke costs well over 400 mp as a example, thats 1/3rd-4th of their mp in one hit). The same goes for physical BPs, lower teirs should be dealing less dmg than higher teirs, even after they adjusted normal WSs to deal more damage, lower teirs attained higher damage but still retained lower damage than higher tier. hell, even tho beastmasters can reduces their timers to 15secs, their damage is severly limited by removing 2 slots for attack/acc gear for recast gear (Which causes the level penalty to increase), and the master MUST be in close range of pet to get commands off (Its this closeness that removed bst as a common event job after the nerf), smn compensates its ability to dish out extremely heavy dmg (If done right)every 20 seconds with the cost of mp and the fact they can stand at fair distance away while using BPs makes it more desirable, if you are having problems with mp so much, you need to work on your gear, for elemental syphon, base refresh after perpectuation, if you sub sch, you need to have a set for dark arts aspir too. there are so many options, even ones i haven't mentioned.

Be aware smn is both a offence and enhancing job, one thing i will agree with you is its healing wards need to be enhances somewhat so its healing factor can get up'd to standards,

Still those T1 spells can be spammed and oftentimes do more than an auto-attack of most melees. As for MP cost, it's very disproportionate. BLM gets a free cast every 5m where SMN's Apogee doubles the MP cost. I often times use up that same or more T6 spell cost at the start of a fight between Hastega II and Earthen Armor (Because God forbid people wait just a little bit for buffs) and I'm not even done buffing yet. I'm still far from being the best SMN by any means, because I don't have the billions and billions of gil invested in it that others do. But over the course, I've gotten somewhat decently geared, but there are those times that MP comes a little close. If SMN had a reverse Mana Cede/Tactical Switch so I could get TP and use Myrkr like BLM get to, it'd be great. Most of the times enemies simple just don't have MP or the recovery from Aspir is so low that it's not cost effective vs time cast. (Aspir, yet another under utilize thing in this MMO).

Edit: The other reason a lot of those lower level BP needs to scale is because SMN lack of Piercing DMG




Summoner's damage output is fine. Summoner overall is in a pretty good spot currently. I wish I could say that I couldn't complain but I would be lying... A lot. I wouldn't mind seeing avatar melee damage go up some because it's pretty abysmal but it's hard to be mad when I'm hitting 99k flaming crushes or 99k magic bursts with the right support. There is a lot of other things I can complain about though...

-Nirvana is useless for magic bloodpacts which makes it really hard to use the aftermath or save tp for Myrkr if you plan on magic bursting because you swap Nirvana out. MAB needs to be added back to the weapon like it originally had... Bloodpact damage +40 and mab+50 or so. Was +1 is a slap in the face to Nirvana owners btw so thanks for that.

-Avatar enmity issues. Why do I pull enmity off my avatar with dia or a melee swing after it does 30k+ in damage from a bloodpact. This is really annoying when I am playing solo and also extremely exploitable in a party. In omen for Fu boss our group literally take 2 summoners and astral conduit it to death because Ifrit doesn't pull any enmity off the tank for spamming 99k Flaming Crushes... Where as any regular dd (not named rng) goes in and does 1 ws and immediately gets one shot for it. Idk whether to complain because it's annoying for solo or thank the devs that such an exploitable thing has been around for years and they don't seem to care.

-useless bloodpacts and avatars. We have bloodpacts that are beyond terrible/gimmicky such as ??? Holy and Pavor Nocturunus when we could use things like Flurryga for Garuda. Odin is absolutely terrible and Alexander is not really worth wasting Astral Flow on anymore either. The stat boost from Astral Flow is better paired with Astral Conduit for bloodpact spam. No avatar even comes close to Ifrit in terms of raw damage output so Ifrit usually outclasses every other avatar in non-mb situations if you do not need the utility they offer (Ramuh's stun / Garuda's aoe cure).

-Level 75 ward potency in 2017... really?

-Pet command to prevent my avatar from attacking things would be lovely. Pressing Retreat 50 times and having my avatar constantly refuse to come back even if the thing it's fighting isn't targeting me is really stupid.

-Nerf Astral Conduit into the ground and actually fix things that are wrong with Summoner. This 1hr is extremely broken and is one of the main reasons people think that Summoner is fine as a job. Make Apogee a 1 min cooldown so we can use it more for self avatar skillchains. I would literally trade my broken Astral Conduit for this 1 adjustment in a heartbeat. I'd rather play the job, not the 1hr.

-Siren and Phoenix lol. Maybe add an Unbridled Learning type ability to Summoner that lets you summon higher tiered avatars like Odin, Alexander, Siren, Bahamut, and Phoenix. There is no reason to have Odin and alexander tied to 1hrs anymore. They are not worth wasting Astral Flow on and Ramuh's Thunderspark deals more damage than Zantetsuken on anything that matters... Could make new high tier battlefields and winning them rewards you with their pact to use.

While I can agree with some, I can't agree with all. I do want the Nirvana to be fixed, the ilvl 119 III isn't even worth making as it stands currently.

Avatar enmity issues are hit and miss, I'm more annoyed when I tell it to come back and after 50+ spams of it finally listens.

I've made my list time and time again for the wards that need changed, and I still stand by them today.

Also, I don't want Astral Conduit to change, because it's saved my life a few times between Whispering Winds and Predator Claw Spam >_>

Personally I don't want any more single use avatars like Atomos, Odin, and Alexander. I want fixed avatars and more diversity