Job balancing?

[dmuller30]

There seems to be so many jobs that aren't being utilized. It seems like now all mobs spam AOE to the point where melee jobs cannot be apart of harder content, after returning for some time now me and my group are currently doing T3 in Reisenjima and I never see any MNK, SAM, THF, WAR etc. I would love this to be balanced so other jobs could be utilized all I ever see is BST,BLM,SCH on rare occasion SMN as far as dps. Sometimes I see BLU but not really as much as BST, BLM, or SCH for DPS.

[Secondplanet]

i agree that job balance in this game is at an all time low right now. I think the only jobs wanted are PLD, WHM, SCH, BLM, GEO, COR and BLU. pretty much if you are not one of those 7 jobs you're the wrong job which is pretty bad considering there is 22 jobs in this game so only 1/3 of them are used.

But at the same time SE has a great deal of blame on themselves for creating such an artificial difficulty to this game with NM's the spam AoE attacks so often and having mobs with such over the top evasion that DD jobs are not reliable compared to just using magic which really can't miss. I don't think its more the jobs aren't balanced (with the exception of BLU cause lets face it when 1/2 a server is playing the same job *cough RDM days cough* there is an issue with that job being too powerful) then there is with content being one sided for one strategy only.

[cengeal]

SE needs to make some major adjustments to the game. I often find RDM to be useless unless they're capped JP's, and even then a GEO is better in 90% of all situations. Heavy DD's are just a complete liability at this point. Even with full Sulevia's+1, they still can't compare. BRD is nearly useless as well, because they're a support job that specializes with melee.

What needs to be rehauled to allow the jobs to have a chance to become more balanced: Hit rate system, Monster TP moves, the effectiveness of BRD, Multiple/Complete dispel moves, and the number of classes that can effectively tank worthwhile content.

[MDenham]

BRD is nearly useless as well, because they're a support job that specializes with melee....and even their melee buffs are behind a comparably-equipped GEO's, which is kind of disappointing.

[Olor]

When they added Indi/GEO-Haste they might as well have just deleted bard from the game.

I used to BRD to get gear for my other jobs. No one loves us anymore.

GEO was already ahead for most strats, and then they went and gave GEO the only thing that BRD had to offer.

[detlef]

I don't know if they can even fix BRD anymore. The job is clunkier to play than GEO and weaker to boot.

[Ketaru]

i agree that job balance in this game is at an all time low right now. I think the only jobs wanted are PLD, WHM, SCH, BLM, GEO, COR and BLU. pretty much if you are not one of those 7 jobs you're the wrong job which is pretty bad considering there is 22 jobs in this game so only 1/3 of them are used.

Not that it's right for the situation of the game to be like this, but that actually sounds par to the course of how the rest of the history of this game has been so far. Seven might even be a bit generous. It's just not obvious to people because they have been those jobs that have been popular. After all, when BST was disturbingly unpopular, insisting that the job be invited to more events was met with, "But BST is a solo job. Level a party job if you want to join parties."

If you believe it all averages out, I'd say BST and BLU have...I dunno, 8 more years in the spotlight before we can talk about bringing them down a peg.

But of course I'm being partially sarcastic here. Just saying, to people who have previously been unpopular jobs, this really doesn't look like anything new, just a shift in balance where once popular jobs are feeling the burn all of a sudden.

[Urthdigger]

Not that it's right for the situation of the game to be like this, but that actually sounds par to the course of how the rest of the history of this game has been so far. Seven might even be a bit generous. It's just not obvious to people because they have been those jobs that have been popular. After all, when BST was disturbingly unpopular, insisting that the job be invited to more events was met with, "But BST is a solo job. Level a party job if you want to join parties."

If you believe it all averages out, I'd say BST and BLU have...I dunno, 8 more years in the spotlight before we can talk about bringing them down a peg.

But of course I'm being partially sarcastic here. Just saying, to people who have previously been unpopular jobs, this really doesn't look like anything new, just a shift in balance where once popular jobs are feeling the burn all of a sudden.

The main difference between now and then, is that back at the 75 cap a suboptimal job was simply that: suboptimal. Everyone wanted a samurai, but a MNK, BST, or PUP could still provide meaningful damage. Then you look at today's balancing, and we have comparisons between jobs that can throw out 20k damage every 5 seconds or so, and ones that can maybe hit 5k with after getting TP, if the accuracy gods favor them that day.

Yes there's always been job balance issues, but the difference is far greater now. Instead of being between the best choice and something that's not as good, you're choosing between the best choice and completely and utterly useless for all content in the game.

[dmuller30]

I remember being it this way. It wasn't like you needed to have a specific job because all of them could do something. But now if you are not "This job" you can't join or do anything with your group because you need "This job" with no acceptions. . . . So upsetting I wanna go as my MNK again!

[CrAZYVIC]

I think the only way of balance the jobs.

Example

Red Mage, Corsair and BRD.

RDM. Attack/RA. Attack 30%. Accuracy/Ra.Accuracy 20%. MA acc +15% / MA Att + 20%. Can use 1 Buff and One Debuff.

Corsair. 3 Dices by default Instead of 2. Unlocking M/E/A Any "Lv75" Legendary weapon, Unlocks 4 Dices and the ability of Stack same Dice x2. Example X2 chaos Roll, X2 hunter Roll etc.

Bard. 3 Songs Default Instead of 2 and Song duration 90 Seconds More. Unlocking any R/M/E/A lv75 unlocks 4 Songs and duration + 90 Seconds + Potency of All Buffs +10%.

To avoid People Exploit the System. Max Amount of Dices per party 4, Max Amount of Songs per party 4, Max Amount of RDM Buff/Debuff 1/1, Max amount Geo buff/debuff 1/1.

Put Something like this in the Test server 1 Month. Then ask for Feedback to the Playerbase, after all the Feedback received here add the Buff and Keep testing to see if the situation changed. If this work Nexth patch Two-Handers, etc.

Like other people said here. The difference between some jobs its brutal.

[Secondplanet]

if anyone wants a good laugh about how some view how balance works right now, I was helping some people in Escha-Zi'tah and they pulled a group of monsters which i apogee+thunderspark x2 to clear them all out and i did this while a BLU was running past me with their own train. He took the time to stop while being attacked by his own hoard to say that summoner is broken and needs a nerf and then one shots his whole group with his attack.

I don't think the issue of balance can be sorted out properly by players calls cause they will want their own jobs given more power or stay where they are while demanding that other jobs that come close to theirs be nerfed to keep them on top.

[OmnysValefor]

As for melee: The problem is not the design of the classes but the design of the combat.

There is hope though. We don't know the stats of future gear but lets look at the Ambuscade armor. While quite tanky, (lots of -dt%), Sulevia's is a hybrid melee set, not a tanking set. It gives great offensive stats, great -dt, all at the expense of Haste which can be overcome in other slots/with buffs.

I'm hoping, really hoping, that this gear has DT because SE has recognized part of the problem, and not just because Paladin can wear it. I hope the MNK/SAM/NIN/PUP (Usukane in Salvage) also has similar levels of DT and offensive stats, as well as Skadi etc. I honestly hope Morrigan's (BLM/SCH/GEO/etc) *does not* have -dt on it. BLM and SCH are already too safe most of the time. And yeah, what makes me a great GEO (even with my little Dunna) is that I stack -DT gear that I've farmed the hard way. I sacrifice some refresh for it, but I am usually the last mage to go down in the event of a wipe.

Melee need great hybrid options because they need to find the balance between offensive and defensive stats. BLM has no such concern. They should be idling in dt/refresh, swapping to fast cast to start the cast, and MAB/MACC to land the spell. Making Morrigan's some beautiful hybrid set would undo so much of the potential that hybrid melee sets might have.

They still need to factor in the fact that melee need soooo much babysitting. Amnesia is stuck for the duration, silence is not (though mutes are).

What frequently kills melee is:

* An AOE WS or Magic followed by an AOE WS or Magic.
* Some curse that diminishes HP or prevents healing or potent dots, coupled with with an AOE WS or magic.
* Can't ignore the incredible damage some monsters' spike spells do. A BLU or THF is a second too late to turn and they're dead.
* Melee can wear some DT gear but they want accuracy and offensive stats. Either they gimp their TP-rate to survive, or they die. Unfortunately a lot of players don't carry -DT gear because they're too much about offense. Mages, on the other hand, stand back at a safe distance and are safe from most damage. A BLM or SCH can relax in DT/PDT/MDT/Refresh/Regen gear and only switch while they're actually casting and lose *no throughput* because of this. If mages are in melee range, it's usually to be protected by vex/attune.
* The melee gets hate either because of a hate reset or because they pulled off the tank. Magic Bursting, though often higher numbers, produces less hate.

I've said it before but BLMs used to be dangerous glass-cannons. They'd hurt you, but they were easy to kill. Now they're rock-solid machine guns.

Melee are often shut down by so many enfeebles that require constant babysitting (some para's are so potent): Amnesia, Paralyze, Blind, Slow, Petrified, Stun, Doom. Stat-down.


...and even their melee buffs are behind a comparably-equipped GEO's, which is kind of disappointing.

No, the biggest problem is that an exceptional (REM) bard is behind a standard Dunna GEO in a lot of ways (and I am a Dunna GEO). Bard's few strengths are barely strengths: They can provide a wider variety of buffs, they're not mp-dependent, and they're highly mobile.

Variety of buffs:

* Carols and threnodies, GEO does better Vex/Attune and Focus/Languor respectively
* Useful songs like Minuet (attack+) have fixed values, GEO is percentage based, thus scaling and ultimately far more potent.
* Melee are generally expected to have as much accuracy as they themselves can provide. Sometimes they still need acc support, but not on most contest.
* Bard buffs can't be "killed" at an inopportune time, but they can be dispelled if the boss dispels, but every boss does kill bubbles with enough time.

Mobility

* It is nice they don't have to stay in melee range to be full support to the melee.
* Most battle fields are small.
* Lack of MP-Dependency to do their primary job IS an asset, but with less-than-stellar buffs, this is not a big deal.


I don't know if they can even fix BRD anymore. The job is clunkier to play than GEO and weaker to boot.

^ This guy's an R/E/M Bard (and a few Idrises), he knows what he's talking about.


I think the only way of balance the jobs.

Example

Red Mage, Corsair and BRD.

Red Mage is not really a "buffer", aside from Haste II/Refresh 3. I don't play RDM and would feel uncomfortable seeing RDM pushed *more* into the supportive role.

[Olor]

Thanks for the thoughtful post Omnys. I know I should just suck it up and level GEO if I want to play support again (and therefore get in parties again) but it's a bummer. It doesn't seem like a lot to ask that they could make bard at least 2/3 as good as GEO...

[OmnysValefor]

I agree completely.

It's an insult to the bards like detlef that invested so much effort and the job is now lackluster.

I mean, make no mistake, if GEO did not exist, Bard would still be princess. People would love it for madrigals and even minuets. The problem is the gap between the two is a canyon wide.

[detlef]

The buffs are weaker, the buffs can be dispelled, applying/maintaining 4 full-strength songs is not fun, and the job is too dependent on it's legendary instruments/weapons. The solution is not allowing more songs. Maybe double buff potency while limiting us to only one song of each type per person. This would have the added benefit of letting us know exactly which song needs to be reapplied. Also, instead of Troubadour doubling buff duration, increase base duration and nerf Troubadour by a corresponding amount. And another debuff would be nice but really the job mainly needs stronger buffing capabilities.

COR needs a boost too.

[VoiceMemo]

Bard. 3 Songs Default Instead of 2 and Song duration 90 Seconds More. Unlocking any R/M/E/A lv75 unlocks 4 Songs and duration + 90 Seconds + Potency of All Buffs +10%.

To avoid People Exploit the System. Max Amount of Dices per party 4, Max Amount of Songs per party 4, Max Amount of RDM Buff/Debuff 1/1, Max amount Geo buff/debuff 1/1.

Put Something like this in the Test server 1 Month. Then ask for Feedback to the Playerbase, after all the Feedback received here add the Buff and Keep testing to see if the situation changed. If this work Nexth patch Two-Handers, etc.


How would this be fair to those of us that are already 4 song brds? If all brds got 3 songs native and limited to 4 max. Also BRD burn parties were fun back in the day, I'd love to get together with 5 other brds, 2 brd /war, 2 /whm, 2 /nin and have up to 24 songs active(if all are 4 song brds).

Also the test server is no longer available. Yes its still an option to click in the menu but the server is gone, so testing is not an option.

My solution to how to fix brd(i've been a brd for 12 years now) is to uncap our songs hard cap and redo how the calculation of the potency of each songs power is determined. The easiest solution is to change our singing, wind, and string skill from C to A+. We are the only job to have instrument skill. Yes geomancer have C skill for handbell and geomancy but the nature of how their spells are calculated is by percent, versus the static values of brd.

If rather not change the base skill, the formula for the songs needs to be recalculated to help lessen the gap between brds buff power and geomancer.

[OmnysValefor]

That sounds good.

A 4 song bard, not being able to give the same person more than one song of a type would be able to give the melee 1 March, Madrigal, Minuet and maybe something defensive like Scherzo or a Carol so while GEO might give a stronger buff, GEO can't provide as many buffs and entrusted spells are suitably weak.

So roll all tiers of Valor Minuet into a single spell, same with Madrigals and March and Ballad. If they did this, it might not be necessary for all carols to be rolled into one, or all threnodies. GEO would be preferable for a mage setup, Bard for melee, and they could work well together in a mixed comp...

If melee ever come back into style.

[Secondplanet]

My solution to how to fix brd(i've been a brd for 12 years now) is to uncap our songs hard cap and redo how the calculation of the potency of each songs power is determined. The easiest solution is to change our singing, wind, and string skill from C to A+. We are the only job to have instrument skill. Yes geomancer have C skill for handbell and geomancy but the nature of how their spells are calculated is by percent, versus the static values of brd.

Summoner has the same issues with old hard caps on our bloodpact wards. Most are stuck at lvl 75 stats which today are not even worth the mp needed to cast. As for raising the skill stat from C to A+ would break abit of balance as you would be having 2 A+ stats as the base for every song cast. While smn only has a A- ranking for summoning magic which is summoners one and only magic skill so never understood that. I could see bard going from C to maybe B+ or A- and Geo going to A at most.

[VoiceMemo]

Summoner has the same issues with old hard caps on our bloodpact wards. Most are stuck at lvl 75 stats which today are not even worth the mp needed to cast. As for raising the skill stat from C to A+ would break abit of balance as you would be having 2 A+ stats as the base for every song cast. While smn only has a A- ranking for summoning magic which is summoners one and only magic skill so never understood that. I could see bard going from C to maybe B+ or A- and Geo going to A at most.

Well perhaps gear then that would raise our stat level more than the individual wind skill, string skill, singing skill, along the lines of the Incanter's Torque, but for say All song skills +X amount and removal of the hard caps. In this way base brd would not be OP but a well geared brd could be.

[VoiceMemo]

That sounds good.

A 4 song bard, not being able to give the same person more than one song of a type would be able to give the melee 1 March, Madrigal, Minuet and maybe something defensive like Scherzo or a Carol so while GEO might give a stronger buff, GEO can't provide as many buffs and entrusted spells are suitably weak.

So roll all tiers of Valor Minuet into a single spell, same with Madrigals and March and Ballad. If they did this, it might not be necessary for all carols to be rolled into one, or all threnodies. GEO would be preferable for a mage setup, Bard for melee, and they could work well together in a mixed comp...

If melee ever come back into style.

That is a HORRIBLE idea to limit to 1 type of each song per person. The whole point of brd is combining quality and quantity of songs for power. Look at how the REM are setup. Relic=Gjallarhron = Quality of songs, Emp= Daurdabla = Quantity and Mythic=Carnwenhan = Duration. If it was only 1 type of song per person max ballad we could give is only 8mp/tic for ballad 3(Gjallarhorn +4, base 3, Emp legs +1). At the moment this is the ONLY spell that can exceed geo's buff ability, Ballad 1, 2, 3 with Gjallarhorn +4 and Emp legs +1, totals 21mp/tic, idris geo maxes out at I believe 16mp/tic. With bolster(1hr) goes to 32mp/tic, but brd can SV and go to 42mp/tic.

[OmnysValefor]

If you read detlef's post that I replied to (but did not quote), he talks about enhancing the potency of songs.

The problem is, GEO tramples all over bard in most ways right now, quality, quantity or nothing.

[Olor]

I thought detlef's post was very thoughtful, it's clear they know the job well. I agree that just adding extra songs adds more work without actually fixing the issues with BRD.

[VoiceMemo]

If you are referring to this reply, I state again this wouldn't work because of the nature of way brd song power is calculated.



So roll all tiers of Valor Minuet into a single spell, same with Madrigals and March and Ballad. If they did this, it might not be necessary for all carols to be rolled into one, or all threnodies. GEO would be preferable for a mage setup, Bard for melee, and they could work well together in a mixed comp...

If melee ever come back into style.

For instance if you combine Ballad 1, 2, 3 into 1 spell that's 6mp/tic add on Gjallarhorn +4 and emp legs +1 and that would only total up to 11mp/tic, 10 mp less than the 21mp/tic that current 3 ballads do because of the fact that the +5 is added only once instead of to each of the individual songs(1+5, 2+5, 3+5). Combining all songs to one and limiting to 1 type per song is not the solution.

If normal NON REM brd gets such a large boost, does that mean those of us who did become REM brd get even more boots? or would we receive nothing for all of the work we put though to achieve REM status?

[dmuller30]

I don't understand why SMN still has a 30 second BP timer. Could you imagine if you cast Cures and all your cures went on a 30 second timer? BLM's can hit back to back to back with no other global timers on their spells. Maybe separate times for each summon? Even if we could spam BP's every 15 seconds or 30 with different timers per avatar we still are limited by the amount of mp we have. I would say separate timers on each avatar would be the best. Or make the skill similar to BST CD ?

[Railer]

The problem is for most content the nm's hp scaling for larger groups is way to steep and that leads to leaving a lot of jobs out. Sure I would like a bard thf ect in the group but then the nm becomes way more time consuming or impossible to beat.

[detlef]

If you are referring to this reply, I state again this wouldn't work because of the nature of way brd song power is calculated.



For instance if you combine Ballad 1, 2, 3 into 1 spell that's 6mp/tic add on Gjallarhorn +4 and emp legs +1 and that would only total up to 11mp/tic, 10 mp less than the 21mp/tic that current 3 ballads do because of the fact that the +5 is added only once instead of to each of the individual songs(1+5, 2+5, 3+5). Combining all songs to one and limiting to 1 type per song is not the solution.

If normal NON REM brd gets such a large boost, does that mean those of us who did become REM brd get even more boots? or would we receive nothing for all of the work we put though to achieve REM status?I thought it was assumed that the buff would take song+ buffs into account. So let's say that Minuet V strength is equivalent to, say, the attack boost we currently get from a combination of Minuet V and IV including instrument boosts. Make Victory March as strong as the haste boost we get from double Marches. Same with Madrigals and so on. That's a pretty significant boost, and I'd argue that songs should be stronger GEO spells because dispels are a greater deterrent/irritation than having to stay in AoE range or recast a bubble.

Also, your argument about RME BRDs... so what? 4 songs is always more than 3. Ghorn is always stronger than regular instruments. Carn will always be best in slot duration boost. What more do you want? The job doesn't need stronger RMEs, it needs a stronger baseline.

[Urthdigger]

The problem is for most content the nm's hp scaling for larger groups is way to steep and that leads to leaving a lot of jobs out. Sure I would like a bard thf ect in the group but then the nm becomes way more time consuming or impossible to beat.

True, that is one of the big issues with job balancing nowadays. Not only are the lesser jobs practically worthless at the feet of gods like BLU and BLM, but they're literally worse than bringing nothing at all.

[OmnysValefor]

The problem is for most content the nm's hp scaling for larger groups is way to steep and that leads to leaving a lot of jobs out. Sure I would like a bard thf ect in the group but then the nm becomes way more time consuming or impossible to beat.

No, it really isn't.

SAM, DNC, WAR, DRK, BLU, THF.. etc are very capable DD. The problem is that, with small exception to BLU and I guess DNC, it's very difficult for them to survive being near the boss and still hit the boss.

Even if the -DT is on other sets of melee Ambuscade gear, we still have the problem of crippling enfeebles that mages simply aren't affected by.

All HP scaling means, and this does bother me, is that I can't carry friends through harder things and help them get gear. Their presence puts more of a burden on the rest of the group.

[OmnysValefor]

I thought it was assumed that the buff would take song+ buffs into account. So let's say that Minuet V strength is equivalent to, say, the attack boost we currently get from a combination of Minuet V and IV including instrument boosts. Make Victory March as strong as the haste boost we get from double Marches. Same with Madrigals and so on. That's a pretty significant boost, and I'd argue that songs should be stronger GEO spells because dispels are a greater deterrent/irritation than having to stay in AoE range or recast a bubble.

Also, your argument about RME BRDs... so what? 4 songs is always more than 3. Ghorn is always stronger than regular instruments. Carn will always be best in slot duration boost. What more do you want? The job doesn't need stronger RMEs, it needs a stronger baseline.

This is correct, but I'm replying directly to the part I bolded:

Exactly, the only problem with BRD is "baseline" GEO blows pimp BRD out of the water, it's like comparing the tankability of a Warrior to a Paladin.

---

In reply to others:

According to https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Madrigal, Double Madrigal from a best-in-slot Bard gives 71 (edit, said 58) accuracy.

The same 4 song bard can give two minuets for 172 (edit: had originally said 138, forgot to account for gear) attack.

A Dunna GEO can give an a melee with 1000 Attack (1000 attack is easily easily achievable) 482 attack (+48.2% to attack) and 75 accuracy (GEO's acc+/evia- bubbles are not % based). Or the GEO can give -28.3% defense to the monster changing a 1000atk vs 1000def to 1482 vs 717. Changes the ratio from 1:1 to 2:1.

Oh, and then, the fury/frailty GEO can entrust +50 accuracy centered on another party member with 50% uptime, or give them Haste or whatever. Or if they provide it as a debuff (indi-torpor, rather than indi-precision), it affects the whole alliance.

Also, the frailty is beneficial to the whole alliance.

[VoiceMemo]

Also, your argument about RME BRDs... so what? 4 songs is always more than 3. Ghorn is always stronger than regular instruments. Carn will always be best in slot duration boost. What more do you want? The job doesn't need stronger RMEs, it needs a stronger baseline.

My point being that those that worked hard to finish REM, what was the point for them? If song power is increased as you described WITH the song+ buffs, you're basically asking to give Relic power to ALL songs for free. Yes those that have R finished would have +4 more power but so what? +4 compared to the amount added to the system your describing is a pittance.

For instance Ballad 1+5+2+5+3+5=21 native now in your suggesting of combining all songs into 1 song with the power of the boosts added. Now Gjallar + legs adds 5 more for 26mp/tic. So who would go after Relic for only a 4mp/tic boost? What is the advantage then of a Relic brd?

Putting it another way percentage wise, current REM brd gets a 350% boost(3.5x that of normal song) with the way songs are setup normal ballad 1+2+3=6mp/tic to a 21mp/tic. Where as if base songs were boosted to relic/emp legs +1 power you'd only get a 124% boost(1.24x that of normal song). Who would go though all the work/gil of relic for a measly 4mp/tic more?

[detlef]

I'm not proposing the perfect solution anyway. Just a concept that might help to solve the problem. Maybe it scaled so that Ghorn versus Langeleik is somehow beneficial enough to meet your standards or Ghorn versus no instrument at all (although keep in mind that +song is duration too, not just potency). I don't know, it's just a concept. The difference between what you're proposing (uncap songs) versus what I'm saying (significantly buff songs and limit us to one of each type) isn't that big, I just care a little more about NQ BRDs and making the job easier to play than you do.

[VoiceMemo]

For ease of play, I would suggest a quest for either Daurdabla or Terpander to be able to unlock the 3rd and 4th song natively. Since both are used for quantity of songs, 4 an 3 respectively. Neither are used full time, they are used to get pseudo songs on for replacement with the instrument with all songs or the appropriate plus song.

In this way we would not need to cast 6 songs for a 4 song brd, or 4songs for a 3 song brd. You would just need to cast 4 songs at full power and 3 songs at full power.

For song power if base skill is not increased, or the base power not increased, SE would need to change the way the songs are calculated to give a percentage boost vs the static boost. That would be one way to lessen the gap vs NQ brd, REM brd, and GEO.

[detlef]

That'd be great. But I don't think they're gonna make a legendary instrument into a KI.

[OmnysValefor]

[...] [to VoiceMemo] I just care a little more about NQ BRDs and making the job easier to play than you do.

I was an NQ bard. At this point, I'm not even a bard. I mean I had all the good R/E gear, I had all the instruments that Bard should have when they don't have a horn or harp. But that's what I like about GEO. I'm not wanting to commit to an Idris and become perma-GEO, even though I otherwise give it my all (and find people ALWAYS wanting me GEO), just like R/E bards were perma-bards before that.

Not wanting to bother making legendary weapon(s) for a job shouldn't bar a person from performing well (not necessarily superb) on the job. This is why Paladin's JSE shield, Priwen, is one of the best in the game and why Paladin can't help but -DT-cap these days. Yes, bleeding-edge things require an Idris or an Aegis paladin or a RUN with a giant ceiling-fan-blade, but it's nice when people who have done a job very well, like detlef's bard, still remember that not everyone wants to.

As an HQ Paladin myself, I like that NQ paladins can tank and NQ dd can still perform well.

[VoiceMemo]

I'm perfectly fine with buffing NQ brd, but not at the expense that a REM brd's boost becomes a pittance, where there is regret for having done all that work to obtain the legendary instruments/weapon. If NQ brd gets boosted REM brd should also get a boost.

Why does mediocrity need to be the norm, what about those that strive for exceptionalism?

As for mechanics of brd mobs that dispel songs are annoying yes but that's part of the job, something you have to deal with, dealing with multiple songs is the same thing, the way the job was designed. You don't see me asking for smn to be changed(I really don't like the mechanics of the job) so I don't play it. Let those of us who like to play the job to keep playing it. The number/way songs are applied don't really need any change, just the difference in power between NQ, REM, and GEO.

Coloration of song icons with numbers would be the best way to identify which song is on party members, but SE already said no to it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/48392-Spell-Icons-for-BRD

[dmuller30]

Although BRD is an underutilized job and taken over by another job there are other jobs that still need some smoothing out. Being a SMN forever and a day I know that needs a lot of work and some tweaking. As far as the other jobs it seems like they can't get close to any of the end game content NM's because they will die in a few hits which is horrible. How do we have jobs that die without any effort from mobs. I was on my MNK the other day trying to do some stuff with ls and who dies first . . . . . Me although it took a bit for me to die I mostly had to dodge runaway a lot to the point where I didn't get to do much but run away from the mob so I wouldn't get one shotted. And if I wasn't running away and tried to do some dps still had to worry about any spike spells the mob had on themselves. On my SMN I feel as if the limiters on them should be adjusted because just like BLM we are limited by our MP. Why such a huge delay time when bst can do there so fast? I just don''t understand the reasoning not to mention our buffs are still stuck at 75. . . It makes no sense still either. I am not sure about any of the other jobs so I don't really know what problems need to be addressed by those other jobs maybe a list of things that could be adjusted?

Smn - I would love if the BP timers for each avatar were separate or the global cool down times were lowered.
Mnk - I honestly don't think it's the job I think it's the mobs and there constant spamming of aoe / status ailments, one time on a mob I was slept, stunned and terrorized the whole fight. . . . So that might be all melee jobs.

[detlef]

I'm perfectly fine with buffing NQ brd, but not at the expense that a REM brd's boost becomes a pittance, where there is regret for having done all that work to obtain the legendary instruments/weapon. If NQ brd gets boosted REM brd should also get a boost.Buffing the baseline of a job affects the top tier of the job too you know. Stop talking about “REM brd” when you really mean Gjallarhorn, the only RME that affects potency. The one that’s already “a pittance” for almost every song.


Why does mediocrity need to be the norm, what about those that strive for exceptionalism?Yeah, I think you’re going to have to get over yourself.


As for mechanics of brd mobs that dispel songs are annoying yes but that's part of the job, something you have to deal with, dealing with multiple songs is the same thing, the way the job was designed. You don't see me asking for smn to be changed(I really don't like the mechanics of the job) so I don't play it. Let those of us who like to play the job to keep playing it. The number/way songs are applied don't really need any change, just the difference in power between NQ, REM, and GEO.BRD is super clunky to play, I’m surprised that you wouldn’t have any suggestions to streamline its play. If you think that the method to apply 4 full-strength songs can’t be improved then I don’t know what to say.

As an example, it would be nice if “one additional song” instruments just put up a dummy song that would be overwritten by the next song you put up, rather than the song with the lowest duration being overwritten. I think we’ve all had issues reapplying songs where the current set of buffs have a shorter duration than even a non-buffed Daurdabla song.


Coloration of song icons with numbers would be the best way to identify which song is on party members, but SE already said no to it.Yes, that would help. Still, you’ll never know which of the two marches needs to be reapplied or whether it was Blade or Sword Madrigal that was dispelled. That’s why I proposed making the top tier song of each type as strong as doubling down on that song currently (and to balance things, only allow one song of each type). I know this would weaken your precious Gjallarhorn which costs maybe 65m on my server but it’s for the greater good.

[OmnysValefor]

Although BRD is an underutilized job and taken over by another job there are other jobs that still need some smoothing out. Being a SMN forever and a day I know that needs a lot of work and some tweaking. As far as the other jobs it seems like they can't get close to any of the end game content NM's because they will die in a few hits which is horrible.

I look forward to the next release of Ambuscade Armor. I hope that (using the salvage names) the Ambuscade version of Usukane and Skadi have a lot of -dt on them too. For years the trade has been whether you want to hit the boss or survive being near the boss. Sulevia's (War/pld/drk/drg) has finally traded survivability for attack speed. I hope the rest follow suit.


Mnk - I honestly don't think it's the job I think it's the mobs and there constant spamming of aoe / status ailments, one time on a mob I was slept, stunned and terrorized the whole fight. . . . So that might be all melee jobs.

It absolutely is the design of the mobs that are the problem, like I said before (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/50480-Job-balancing?p=577189&viewfull=1#post577189).

[VoiceMemo]

Yeah, I think you’re going to have to get over yourself.


This kindof shows your age to resort to personal attacks. I've not attacked your views. I've just expressed mine.

But this kindof thinking is like todays youth of that EVERYONE gets a trophy, not just the ones that were the MVP.



As an example, it would be nice if “one additional song” instruments just put up a dummy song that would be overwritten by the next song you put up, rather than the song with the lowest duration being overwritten. I think we’ve all had issues reapplying songs where the current set of buffs have a shorter duration than even a non-buffed Daurdabla song.


I've NEVER had overwrite order issues with Daurdabla. I remove my Emp Neck and Body when casting the Daurdabla dummy songs which reduces those song duration by 24 sec(20%) and then reapply with Gjallarhorn songs at full 4 min 51sec power.

[Olor]

lol "get over yourself" is not a personal attack.

And as a NQ bard who had the R/EX instruments I needed to be decent (even spent a lot of gil chasing after the +all songs augment on the skirmish flute!) I really appreciate that Detlef has suggestions that would help all bards not just ones with super instruments.

No, I didn't save up for a ghorn but I did voidwatch till it made me sick to get a haste harp. I definitely tried to be a good bard, not exceptional by any means, but one that would do their best.

I dislike this attitude some folks have in the game that if you're not rocking an REM you shouldn't expect to play... that's just not good for the game.

[detlef]

This kindof shows your age to resort to personal attacks. I've not attacked your views. I've just expressed mine.

But this kindof thinking is like todays youth of that EVERYONE gets a trophy, not just the ones that were the MVP. I’m a little surprised you picked that one bit to respond to without addressing the views I expressed. I do think you need to get over yourself so I guess I’m sorry if you take it personally. It’s not so much everyone gets a trophy, it’s being allowed to compete. And I say this as someone who’s got the same stuff you got. Unless you have a Marsyas, then your word is the word of god.

I mean, are you still going to stuff on BRD? I made myself an Idris and find very little reason to bring BRD to much of anything anymore.


I've NEVER had overwrite order issues with Daurdabla. I remove my Emp Neck and Body when casting the Daurdabla dummy songs which reduces those song duration by 24 sec(20%) and then reapply with Gjallarhorn songs at full 4 min 51sec power.Scenario: You put up 4 songs that are max duration. One of them is dispelled. You put up a dummy song with Daurdabla (99) so now you have 3 full strength songs and 1 dummy song. However, if you want to put up a full strength song to overwrite the dummy song, it’ll only work if the other three full strength buffs have a remaining duration higher than 130% strength dummy song you just put up. As a career BRD, you’ve never run into this issue?

Also, I want to point out that if you had multiple tiers of the same song (i.e. Minuets or Marches), you wouldn’t know which one was dispelled so reapplying the correct song could end up being a guessing game. That’s something for which I proposed a fix earlier, but you shit all over the idea because it cheapens your efforts for one out of three legendary instruments. Why is Ghorn so sacred to you?

[VoiceMemo]

Unless you have a Marsyas, then your word is the word of god.

I don't have it yet but it is in the works. I have Kirin left and then my only issues would be some of the Reisenjima HELM NMs. But I will get it done because I want to be an exceptional brd.



I mean, are you still going to stuff on BRD? I made myself an Idris and find very little reason to bring BRD to much of anything anymore.

I still do many events on brd, I am able to duo many nms with blue as brd.



Scenario: You put up 4 songs that are max duration. One of them is dispelled. You put up a dummy song with Daurdabla (99) so now you have 3 full strength songs and 1 dummy song. However, if you want to put up a full strength song to overwrite the dummy song, it’ll only work if the other three full strength buffs have a remaining duration higher than 130% strength dummy song you just put up. As a career BRD, you’ve never run into this issue?

Also, I want to point out that if you had multiple tiers of the same song (i.e. Minuets or Marches), you wouldn’t know which one was dispelled so reapplying the correct song could end up being a guessing game. That’s something for which I proposed a fix earlier, but you shit all over the idea because it cheapens your efforts for one out of three legendary instruments.


So you just sing a dummy song and overwrite all 4 songs again at Gjallarhorn power. Is it hard NO, does it take more time, Yes, but then you have a fresh set of full power songs. That is the negative of songs, much like the negative of geo is that 1 of its bubbles is around the caster. Name one job that has all positives with no negatives. Castings songs does not take time with fc/-song casting time gear which is easy to cap now. The ONLY time I would not overwrite is if it were SV songs. If 1 is dispelled I would put on another song that was not part of the 5 that were sung.



Why is Ghorn so sacred to you?
Its not so much sacred as I would like it to be equally boosted. Like I said before I have no issues that NQ brd gets boosted, but those that worked on Gjallarhorn should be boosted more. Much like how a NQ geo can do alot but an idris geo can do even more. This type of tier is what I'm asking for. If NQ brd gets boosted and not Gjallarhorn brd how is this akin to how geo is setup? It's just giving Gjallarhorn power to everyone and forgetting about those that did do the work to get Gjallarhorn. Is this fair?

But to be fair the buff should be put on the mythic, carnwenhan, since Gjallarhorn is relatively easy to get. This would be on par for difficulty as Idris since ergon wep was meant to be mythicish(not from nyzul so isn't really a mythic). The boost would be the combination of Gjallarhorn and Carnwenhan to be on par with Idris geo.

[dmuller30]

It seems like BRD is getting the most attention is there any other jobs that could use some focus? I am pretty sure SE is aware of all the problems that BRD has since the introduction of GEO. But there are a handful of other jobs that need help like the ones that aren't BLM/GEO/BST/PLD/BLU - RDM on rare occasion and COR on rare occasion.

[Secondplanet]

speaking for my wife here but Drg needs to have a look over for their Wyvern, on a 10min counter and you're only good while its out and at times the rate of AoE spams and hurtful effects can make it hard for them to keep the wyvern alive. My wife doesn't have the hardest of times keeping hers alive but if you get killed and the battle just started you have to wait 10mins to be of any use again as the timer is now ticking.

Like said earlier SMN's wards need to have their caps raised or removed to allow us to have decent party buffs which might help us get spots in parties. Ninja's could use some loving again as they were an awesome tank but again the issue of mobs over spamming AoE's has killed that jobs potential off.

[detlef]

It seems like BRD is getting the most attention is there any other jobs that could use some focus? I am pretty sure SE is aware of all the problems that BRD has since the introduction of GEO. But there are a handful of other jobs that need help like the ones that aren't BLM/GEO/BST/PLD/BLU - RDM on rare occasion and COR on rare occasion.BRD is only getting attention in here this thread because a handful of people care enough to discuss it. Other jobs certainly have issues and people should speak up about it.


So you just sing a dummy song and overwrite all 4 songs again at Gjallarhorn power. Is it hard NO, does it take more time, Yes, but then you have a fresh set of full power songs. That is the negative of songs, much like the negative of geo is that 1 of its bubbles is around the caster. Name one job that has all positives with no negatives. Castings songs does not take time with fc/-song casting time gear which is easy to cap now. The ONLY time I would not overwrite is if it were SV songs. If 1 is dispelled I would put on another song that was not part of the 5 that were sung.I understand that this is what has to be done, but I’d argue that the job’s mechanics should be improved to make it easier to get 4 songs up and maintain them. Yeah, it’s possible but could really be improved.

Just like how I think BST is currently playable but its mechanics could be vastly improved for a much more pleasant play experience. Just like how Aftermaths should be able to overwrite themselves. It just streamlines the game and makes it more fun to play.

Also, having Indi spells centering around the GEO is not universally negative and is very often beneficial.


Its not so much sacred as I would like it to be equally boosted. Like I said before I have no issues that NQ brd gets boosted, but those that worked on Gjallarhorn should be boosted more. Much like how a NQ geo can do alot but an idris geo can do even more. This type of tier is what I'm asking for. If NQ brd gets boosted and not Gjallarhorn brd how is this akin to how geo is setup? It's just giving Gjallarhorn power to everyone and forgetting about those that did do the work to get Gjallarhorn. Is this fair?Right, a NQ GEO can do a lot but an Idris GEO can do more. But if they increase the potency of Malaise, that benefits both Dunna and Idris GEOs. I don’t see how increasing the strength of buffs is helping only NQ players.


But to be fair the buff should be put on the mythic, carnwenhan, since Gjallarhorn is relatively easy to get. This would be on par for difficulty as Idris since ergon wep was meant to be mythicish(not from nyzul so isn't really a mythic). The boost would be the combination of Gjallarhorn and Carnwenhan to be on par with Idris geo.Carn already gives us a huge duration boost. Why should the buff be on the Mythic weapon? You want only RME BRDs to get invited to anything? What we need is a scenario where 3-song, non-relic BRDs can still get invited to things and that only happens if the job itself is addressed, not its legendary instruments. RME BRDs will still always be better than 3-song BRDs.

[OmnysValefor]

It seems like BRD is getting the most attention is there any other jobs that could use some focus? I am pretty sure SE is aware of all the problems that BRD has since the introduction of GEO. But there are a handful of other jobs that need help like the ones that aren't BLM/GEO/BST/PLD/BLU - RDM on rare occasion and COR on rare occasion.

Most melee's issues are, again, content design rather than class design. Future Ambuscade armor may fix a lot of the issue (but not all of it). And luckily, for all the people participating in both threads, Ambuscade armor, with more effort, can be obtained by sparks/skirmish geared people/trusts.

The enfeebling thing.. That will take a mindful effort by SE to make bosses that aren't so much more brutal on melee. There isn't a single boss in the game that is meaner to BLM than it is to Monk (besides being resisty to damage). Even Delores who goes crazy-enmity if she takes ranged damage just have everyone stack on the boss. The BLMs are more capable of being in -dt kits than the melee as well.

I honestly can't think of a way to make things more brutal on mages than melee. Even if you made defense a primary factor for a boss, you'd just have your GEOs use Indi-Barrier and people eating tacos or something.

Bard's problem is that it's class-design is now incomparably inferior to GEO. Songs need a buff and their mechanics need consideration.

[Olor]

I honestly can't think of a way to make things more brutal on mages than melee.


More bosses with riddle/MP drains? The return of Colibris? LOL

Yeah it's hard.

At least with BLM it was in such a rotten spot for such a long time that I don't begrudge that they are in the limelight now.

I don't currently play heavy DD so I can't really comment on their utility but I am working on DRG and the more I look into it the more it seems like they are super hobbled by the timer on the drake, I mean, even 5 minutes would be less cruel... a lot of that is master getting killed, seems like the dragon itself is pretty tough but either SE needs to make DRG ABSOLUTELY GODLY with their dragon out or they need to reduce the timer because making DRG at best sort of good with DRG out and LOLGIMP without it is not working from the looks of it.

RDM seems pretty weak at the moment, I have it at 99 but there doesn't seem to be any reason for me to work on it, it's worse off than bard and needs even more gear sets to be even halfway reasonable. For soloing my BLU is better (though I see that there are still RDM out there doing epic solos - BLU seems easier for less geared players to solo with) and BLU is more in demand for groups as well.

[dmuller30]

But still even though those jobs are in the lime light now they weren't completely useless back in the day and still could be utilized. As someone mentioned earlier in the post earlier in game all jobs could be used, although some were preferred each was completely useful and not just in specific situation. Which is sad now because it has changed to just "These jobs" are useful.

[machini]

The BLU job point gifts of two free levels of all their traits is completely broken, and needs to be removed.

[OmnysValefor]

As a part-time blu, BLU JP categories (+20 BM points especially) and bonuses feel like the job leveled up which is probably how JP are supposed to feel.

I'd rather them buff jobs that got lackluster JP categories.

Recognizing that BLU is probably the most powerful, most sought-after melee right now doesn't mean it's overpowered, it means other melee could use a buff, because none of us are wanted if Scholars and Black Mages are effective against the boss.

[dmuller30]

That would be awesome if they did add our suggestions to a test server so that way we could try it and send our feedback on what we did and didn't like. Several jobs still need a face lift.

[VoiceMemo]

The test server is no more, even though the link to "play on test server" is there, it was suspended a few years ago and never reopened.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/43422-NA-Test-Server-Temporary-Closure?highlight=test+server+closure

[VoiceMemo]

Right, a NQ GEO can do a lot but an Idris GEO can do more. But if they increase the potency of Malaise, that benefits both Dunna and Idris GEOs. I don’t see how increasing the strength of buffs is helping only NQ players.

It comes down to the difference between NQ and HQ brd. For instance look at GEO's Geo-Refresh, The difference between NQ bell and idris is 5mp/tic. When you compare NQ brd(+2 all songs and emp +1 legs) and HQ brd(+4 all songs and emp +1 legs) its only a +2 difference.

So as my previous post I said:



If it was only 1 type of song per person max ballad we could give is only 8mp/tic for ballad 3(Gjallarhorn +4, base 3, Emp legs +1). At the moment this is the ONLY spell that can exceed geo's buff ability, Ballad 1, 2, 3 with Gjallarhorn +4 and Emp legs +1, totals 21mp/tic, idris geo maxes out at I believe 16mp/tic. With bolster(1hr) goes to 32mp/tic, but brd can SV and go to 42mp/tic.
and



For instance Ballad 1+5+2+5+3+5=21 native now in your suggesting of combining all songs into 1 song with the power of the boosts added. Now Gjallar + legs adds 5 more for 26mp/tic. So who would go after Relic for only a 4mp/tic boost? What is the advantage then of a Relic brd?


Idris already grants a greater boost from a NQ geo to a HQ geo with the weapon compared to a NQ brd and a HQ brd(REM). This is also reflected with their buffing spells that are calculated by a percentage.

My point again is that if base songs get changed with the current STATIC nature of + all songs, that it just further just gives FREE Gjallarhorn power to all brds. To be fair Gjallarhorn power would have to increase, but to counter act GEO's from complaining that it's too easy to get it would need to be on mythic weapon, which is comparable in difficulty to attain as Idris.

A real world example would be NQ = person paid $9/hr without college degree, where HQ = person paid $20/hr who went to college. Now you just give raise to NQ to $18/hr just because that's what the other NQ(geos) are getting and HQ person gets only raised to $21/hr because they already made more than $18/hr . Is that fair to the HQ person? They put in all that work but yet because to equal other NQ(geos), NQ(brd) gets raise and HQ(brd) gets pittance.

Now IF brd +all songs was changed to be a PERCENTAGE boost rather than a STATIC boost then yes it would scale accordingly.

In this case real world, NQ would make $18/hr but then HQ would be boosted by percentage, not 200% like NQ but maybe 150% to $30/hr.



Carn already gives us a huge duration boost. Why should the buff be on the Mythic weapon? You want only RME BRDs to get invited to anything? What we need is a scenario where 3-song, non-relic BRDs can still get invited to things and that only happens if the job itself is addressed, not its legendary instruments. RME BRDs will still always be better than 3-song BRDs.

The boost would go on Mythic because if it was placed on Gjallarhorn, Geos or other jobs would complain that it is TOO easy to get vs how their Idris takes to get.

[OmnysValefor]

As a GEO, GEOs don't have room to be complaining about anything.

Except the awfully implemented off-targeting mechanism for bubbles.

[detlef]

It comes down to the difference between NQ and HQ brd. For instance look at GEO's Geo-Refresh, The difference between NQ bell and idris is 5mp/tic. When you compare NQ brd(+2 all songs and emp +1 legs) and HQ brd(+4 all songs and emp +1 legs) its only a +2 difference.Okay, so let's get something straight. In your eyes, a HQ BRD has RME, Ghorn/Carnwenhan/Daurdabla. NQ BRD has regular instruments, Kali/Legato, and Terpander. Let’s assume that both are capped on song+ and song effect duration gear (Fili+1 body, Aoidos neck, no Marduk legs because Ballad, Brioso feet, don’t have my gear sets in front of me ATM). Using Ballad as an example like you did, HQ BRD is able to provide:

-obviously 33% more songs (4 versus 3);

-Due to Ghorn and Carn, the HQ BRD is able to provide songs that are 39% longer duration (233% versus 168%), 31% difference with Blurred Harp;

-And if you look at potency, HQ BRD’s buffs provide 36% more refresh (15 mp/tick versus 11) for double Ballads, 15% difference with Blurred Harp.

Correct my math if I'm missing something, but I have to ask you, why isn’t BRD being invited anymore? It probably isn’t because the boost provided by RME are too weak. It might be because the job as a whole needs improvement.

Edit: math was bad.

[VoiceMemo]

Okay, so let's get something straight. In your eyes, a HQ BRD has RME, Ghorn/Carnwenhan/Daurdabla. NQ BRD has regular instruments, Kali/Legato, and Terpander. Let’s assume that both are capped on song+ and song effect duration gear (Fili+1 body, Aoidos neck, no Marduk legs because Ballad, Brioso feet, don’t have my gear sets in front of me ATM). Using Ballad as an example like you did, HQ BRD is able to provide:

NQ brd = 3 song JSE harp and the all songs +2 Eminent flute or Forefront flute.
HQ brd = Carnwenhan, Gjallarhorn, Daurdabla

My example was comparison of NQ geo Dunna and Nepote Bell, geomancy +5, versus the idris geomancy +10. Compare this to Eminent flute +2 to Gjallarhorn +4. Because of the PERCENTAGE nature of geomancy spells idris geo sees much more boost than dunna geo, but the STATIC nature of brd the power isn't nearly as great.

their nq +5 on dunna is greater than the hq of gjallarhorn already. To be on a lvl field perhaps Eminent flute goes to +5 and Gjallarhorn to +10, but this is why I suggested that the buff be on Carnwenhan, else geo's would complain that brd's powerful instrument is so easy to get.



-obviously 33% more songs (4 versus 3);


4th song does not apply to this example as there are only 3 ballads, this is comparison of ballad power.



-Due to Ghorn and Carn, the HQ BRD is able to provide songs that are 39% longer duration (233% versus 168%), 31% difference with Blurred Harp;

Duration is long yes but this is about the power, and the power of songs comes from Gjallarhorn. Duration is a different story.



-And if you look at potency, HQ BRD’s buffs provide 36% more refresh (15 mp/tick versus 11) for double Ballads, 15% difference with Blurred Harp.

Yes duration will give more MP back for total time, but again this is about power of the buff not total MP recovered.



Correct my math if I'm missing something, but I have to ask you, why isn’t BRD being invited anymore? It probably isn’t because the boost provided by RME are too weak. It might be because the job as a whole needs improvement.

Edit: math was bad.

The main reason why brd isn't invited as much is because of the HP mechanics of alot of the fights. Because less people = less HP brd becomes a luxury to have. Also because of the time limits imposed by SE for these battles. Brd unless you SV is not about a sprint, by the nature of brd songs its about the marathon. Brd is helpful when a fight runs long as they are not bound by mp constraints and can provide the support needed for the longer battle, ie ballads.

The BEST reason for brd at the moment is Requiem 7. As a REM brd this is one of the longest dmging DOT spells at around 5 minutes unresisted. Very useful to keep mobs from regening in cases of wipe situation.

[Pixela]

Also it's completely stupid how broken Idris is, I really don't know what they were thinking.

[dmuller30]

Bahaha that weapon is sooooooo broken. It really puts GEO in the god mode level.

[machini]

As a part-time blu, BLU JP categories (+20 BM points especially) and bonuses feel like the job leveled up which is probably how JP are supposed to feel.

I'd rather them buff jobs that got lackluster JP categories.

Recognizing that BLU is probably the most powerful, most sought-after melee right now doesn't mean it's overpowered, it means other melee could use a buff, because none of us are wanted if Scholars and Black Mages are effective against the boss.

I don't think you understand. BLU job point gifts are so mindbogglingly overpowered compared to all other jobs that they need to be toned down significantly. Having two free levels of all your traits, combined with the ability to choose which traits to set is too powerful. Especially when you compare it to jobs like DNC, or PUP, where your job point gifts actually hurt you.

There is a reason that BLU is the most sought-after melee right now, and it's because it's broken. And they won't fix it because they don't want to admit that they made a mistake.

Let's look at some other Jobs' 100 and 1200 point gifts, and compare them to two free levels of whatever job traits you want to set, excluding TA and TH.

WAR gets 10% crit rate.
MNK gets 10 martial arts, which hurts MNK.
WHM gets Reraise IV and Full Cure. Every WHM I have spoken to says Full Cure is completely useless.
BLM gets Tier VI nukes and Death. Death consumes all your MP, and BLMs hate having MP.
RDM gets Tier V nukes, Refresh III, and Temper II. You know, for all that meleeing RDMs do these days, and do you honestly want me to believe people bring RDM along specifically to cast Refresh III? Wonderful use of a slot in the party.
THF's raises the cap on TH by two. Not gives +2 TH and breaks the soft cap, but gives you a super tiny chance to get to TH 14. It'd just take 10~20 minutes, or more, of wailing on something that a) won't be living that long, and b) will probably one-shot you if it so much as looks in your direction.
PLD gets Enlight II, which they desperately need because they have major ACC issues, and 20% more damage returned by reprisal, a spell with a 1 minute duration and 3 minute cast time. So unless a PLD can achieve -66% recast time, this gift is actually useless a significant portion of the time. Assuming a PLD will have Haste II or equivalent and capped gear haste, you're looking at ~-55% recast time, which still leaves this gift useless 1/4th of the time, assuming it lasts its full duration, in which case it's even worse, since Reprisal's damage reflection has a cap after which it wears off, and there goes your block rate bonus from it.
DRK gets Endark II, which is nice, I guess, and 20% more HP drained by Dread Spikes, which, again, if you're playing DRK on current, relevant content, and something so much as looks at you for more than a few seconds, you're likely dead. Dread Spikes has a Duration of 3 minute and a recast of 3 minutes, but, given the fact that it's going to absorb, at most, 88% of your max HP, and considering that most end game monsters can one shot you, you're looking at it protecting you from maybe 4 or 5 hits, or maybe 2 or 3 TP moves, tops. Which probably will make it wear off long before you can recast it.
BST gets Sic and Ready recast time reduction of 5s, reduction on charges of Ready by 5s, and pet TP Bonus+40. God, those sure are on par with two free levels of any job traits you want.
BRD gets a second tier of Threnody and 5% increased song duration. So you get 6 extra seconds of song length, and Threnody IIs. Those are both nearly completely useless, and, see above commentary on BST. Especially considering all the fancy new spells BLU has gotten lately, but that is a thing that applies to all casters other than BLU.
RNG gets 10% ranged attack delay reduction while under the effect of Velocity Shot, which as a 2 minute duration and a 5 minute recast time. So 60% of the time, Ranger's gift, that is considered of the same 'power' as BLU's 2 free job trait levels, is completely useless.
SAM gets, under Hasso, a 10% chance that Zanshin will activate even on a hit, and under Seigan, a 10% increase in the Zanshin activation rate.
NIN gets Utsusemi: San, which is 5 base images instead of 3/4, and 5% WSD. Utsusemi: San is subject to all the 'flaws' that Ni and Ichi have, such as it being useless against a lot of things that will one shot you.
DRG gets a buff to their incredibly fragile pet.
SMN gets 15 more attack, ranged attack, and defense for their pets, and 5 second reduction on blood pact delays. That 15 ATT, RATT, and DEF sure are on par with an entire free level of all your job traits.
COR gets 10% ranged attack delay reduction, which probably hurts COR for the same reason MNK, PUP, and DNC are hurt by their delay reductions.
PUP gets 4 extra points per element for attaching equipment to their automaton, and, let's be honest, that sounds a lot better than it actually is.
DNC gets 4 extra maximum finishing moves. That is nice, I will say, as a DNC, but all it really means is that I don't have to do a step after using 5 Finishing Moves, such as on Reverse Flourish or Climactic Flourish, or any of the other abilities that consume 5 finishing moves, which still remains the maximum that can be consumed at once. Being able to Step, wait 5 seconds, Step, wait 5 seconds, Step, Weapon Skill, Reverse Flourish, Climactic Flourish, and then Weapon Skill instead of having to Step, Step, and then doing a third step between Reverse Flourish and Climactic Flourish is nowhere near on par with BLU's gifts, especially considering the relatively long recasts of some DNC JAs which, unless spells, can't get -80% recast time. Like BLU can get. Also this is only really "great" if you're a mythic DNC, since then you can get 9 finishing moves in 3 steps, whereas other, non-Mythic, DNCs will require 5. But your job point gifts should not REQUIRE a mythic to be good.
SCH gets Tier II storms and Tier II helixes.
GEO gets Tier V nukes and Tier III -ra spells. Which is great, compared to 2 free levels of all job traits, right? Especially considering that these are you gifts, whereas BLU has gotten new, very powerful, spells like mad.
RUN gets 20% increased duration on enhancement spells received. You know. Those things that are going to get dispelled frequently.

[edited for politeness]

[detlef]

NQ brd = 3 song JSE harp and the all songs +2 Eminent flute or Forefront flute.
HQ brd = Carnwenhan, Gjallarhorn, Daurdabla

My example was comparison of NQ geo Dunna and Nepote Bell, geomancy +5, versus the idris geomancy +10. Compare this to Eminent flute +2 to Gjallarhorn +4. Because of the PERCENTAGE nature of geomancy spells idris geo sees much more boost than dunna geo, but the STATIC nature of brd the power isn't nearly as great.

their nq +5 on dunna is greater than the hq of gjallarhorn already. To be on a lvl field perhaps Eminent flute goes to +5 and Gjallarhorn to +10, but this is why I suggested that the buff be on Carnwenhan, else geo's would complain that brd's powerful instrument is so easy to get.No GEO would have any right to complain so let’s not worry about that. One thing that you bring up that I glossed over because I was in a hurry was the idea of percentage based buffs which I completely agree with. Static buffs did not survive ilvl very well at all.

Also, we don’t have to go songs+5 or +10, the devs could instead adjust it so that song+1 means something different. The difference between song+4 and song+5 doesn’t even have to be consistent with the difference between song+2 and song+3.


4th song does not apply to this example as there are only 3 ballads, this is comparison of ballad power.Yeah I couldn’t come up with a perfect example, obviously 4th song is always in play not just for Ballads and you’d almost never have any reason to do 4 of the same song. Even though we’re talking about only Ballads for some reason, I think we can agree that HQ BRDs will generally be providing 4 songs while NQ BRDs will be limited to 3.


Duration is long yes but this is about the power, and the power of songs comes from Gjallarhorn. Duration is a different story.

Yes duration will give more MP back for total time, but again this is about power of the buff not total MP recovered.While potency is important, I think you’re glossing over duration way too much. When certain battle conditions are met, those Ballads will last 78 seconds longer which is in no way trivial. Those duration effects apply to debuffs too. Nitro Lullaby is a real weapon and one of the only unique things BRD brings to the table.


The main reason why brd isn't invited as much is because of the HP mechanics of alot of the fights. Because less people = less HP brd becomes a luxury to have. Also because of the time limits imposed by SE for these battles. Brd unless you SV is not about a sprint, by the nature of brd songs its about the marathon. Brd is helpful when a fight runs long as they are not bound by mp constraints and can provide the support needed for the longer battle, ie ballads.BRD is definitely a luxury that you wouldn’t have in a normal HP-scaled event as you said. But again, it’s because BRD is weak. HQ BRD already separates itself from NQ BRD. No additional RME buffs are needed to widen the gap (or even maintain the gap, the gulf will always be huge).


The BEST reason for brd at the moment is Requiem 7. As a REM brd this is one of the longest dmging DOT spells at around 5 minutes unresisted. Very useful to keep mobs from regening in cases of wipe situation.Well I actually think Scherzo and Nitro Lullaby are probably the best reasons to bring BRD but to each his own.


Also it's completely stupid how broken Idris is, I really don't know what they were thinking.Yeah Idris is pretty broken, but look at all the unique debuffs that GEO gets: magic defense down, magic accuracy down, attack down, defense down, evasion down… And each of them is hugely potent even with Dunna. GEO can also nuke and stun. It’s kinda unfair. But even so, I wouldn’t bother calling for a nerf, I just want BRD to get significant buff. And it has to be significant to matter.

[OmnysValefor]

I don't think you understand. BLU job point gifts are so mindbogglingly overpowered compared to all other jobs that they need to be toned down significantly. Having two free levels of all your traits, combined with the ability to choose which traits to set is too powerful. Especially when you compare it to jobs like DNC, or PUP, where your job point gifts actually hurt you.

There is a reason that BLU is the most sought-after melee right now, and it's because it's broken. And they won't fix it because they don't want to admit that they made a mistake.

Let's look at some other Jobs' 100 and 1200 point gifts, and compare them to two free levels of whatever job traits you want to set, excluding TA and TH.

[...]

Oh no, I do totally understand (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/49834-Can-we-talk-about-PLD-s-JP-Options-and-Gifts)

A lot of jobs got the shaft. Either the guys designing JP gifts really understood BLU or really didn't. I would love to see an overhaul of many jobs JP gifts (not GEO's though--I think GEO's base is too high to need much love and I think that the synergy of the gifts giving skill means you can change your midcast set is a wonderful thing. T5 nukes may be a silly gift, but GEO just... doesn't need much).

Towards the thread I linked above, an old one of mine, I'd point out that whoever designed gifts really didn't understand PLD, and really didn't understand Monk.

It is true that most jobs in the game would trade their 100/1200 for (Two free tiers of all your native job traits) and I understand how much more potent blu's is due to versatility.

[machini]

The problem is that it's much easier to get rid of the BLU 100/1200 gifts than it is to give everyone else equally useful things. I'd prefer a solution that doesn't remove those two free levels, but it seems like it's the only workable solution, given the priorities of the dev team.

[Railer]

On Runefencer Battuta needs to be a spell not a job ability.

[OmnysValefor]

On Ninja, they have a Ninjutsu spell like Crusade. Why? They already have Yonin, Buff Yonin to match. Nobody is trying to hold-hate on anything danger in Innin. Ninja has too many spells.

Subtle Blow should reduce damage taken from spike spells. Every 1 point of subtle blow should reduce the damage taken from spikes by 1%.

[Olor]

Oh yeah, pretty much a cross post but... either fencer needs to have some benefits for pets and BST needs better shields and shield ratings or fencer needs to be dumped in favour of dual-wield on BST ... PLZ.

[Kassaiemi]

Oh no, I do totally understand (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/49834-Can-we-talk-about-PLD-s-JP-Options-and-Gifts)

A lot of jobs got the shaft. Either the guys designing JP gifts really understood BLU or really didn't. I would love to see an overhaul of many jobs JP gifts (not GEO's though--I think GEO's base is too high to need much love and I think that the synergy of the gifts giving skill means you can change your midcast set is a wonderful thing. T5 nukes may be a silly gift, but GEO just... doesn't need much).

Towards the thread I linked above, an old one of mine, I'd point out that whoever designed gifts really didn't understand PLD, and really didn't understand Monk.

It is true that most jobs in the game would trade their 100/1200 for (Two free tiers of all your native job traits) and I understand how much more potent blu's is due to versatility.

I just have a hard time thinking of anything that would be an equivalent power boost to other jobs that match the sheer number of new spells and the power of traits available to BLU. It's especially bad in the case of RDM, where BLU has more or less become a better RDM. You're a much more balanced caster/melee hybrid, you're a hell of a lot more powerful, and you still have party wide buffs, at the cost of not having the powerful disables RDM has, but on the flip side, it's extremely difficult to land those disables on things that matter anyways. What would you even do to bring RDM back into playability, when comparing it to the bar BLU has set? Go against its class design and give it AOEs? Massively reduce the resistance to debuffs bosses have? Massively increase its spell damage and put it on par with BLM or SCH and, again, go against its class design? Massively buff its heals to make it compete with WHM and SCH for healing?

I'd love to see buffs to the other jobs that bring them "up to BLU's level" but I'm completely stumped on what any such buffs would even be, other than just upping trait levels, layering on tons of new spells and abilities (which might not even be possible within the limitations of the game engine), and making the (non-BLU) melees about thirty times tankier. Which would in turn further polarize the difference between no JP BLUs and fully farmed BLUs which is a whole other kettle of fish. I dunno. BLU does have the distinction of being one of -- if not the most -- farm-intensive jobs to actually become relevant, but when it DOES become relevant, it turns into such complete BS.

[dmuller30]

I can tell you first hand I got blu 99 with JP just for the power it posses. It far outweighs any other job and you can get the gear easily. The relic or mythic isn't the best a pair of good Coladas will do the trick. They should make the rest of the jobs follow suit. Why take away from us they keep on taking away from us. They should add more abilities to other jobs to make them fun and powerful so that way some balancing can happen. And even on blu I don't get ask to go anywhere on it most the time I get asked to go on my GEO although my gear on blu far outweighs my geo. I can survive aoe attacks and heal myself but just barley monsters still needs to be fixed. What I would really love is to play my MNK or SMN again, those 2 jobs in my eyes need a serious face lift!

[cengeal]

I don't think you understand. BLU job point gifts are so mindbogglingly overpowered compared to all other jobs that they need to be toned down significantly. Having two free levels of all your traits, combined with the ability to choose which traits to set is too powerful. Especially when you compare it to jobs like DNC, or PUP, where your job point gifts actually hurt you.

RNG gets 10% ranged attack delay reduction while under the effect of Velocity Shot, which as a 2 minute duration and a 5 minute recast time. So 60% of the time, Ranger's DRG gets a buff to their incredibly fragile pet.

[edited for politeness]

Velocity Shot lasts 2 hours, not 2 minutes. Not sure why you thought it lasted 2 minutes. Secondly, DRG wyverns are not that fragile. The DRG however, is. And DRG gifts are actually pretty good. You also didn't post every 550 JP Gifts, which is okay, but leaving that out can be rather misleading. RUN gets Temper, which is actually pretty awesome for a true melee. RDM gets new enfeebles, which are pretty useful (if they land). DRK gets Drain III, which can cap your max hp. There are other pretty awesome 550 JP Gifts, but I don't feel like listing them all.

You are correct: Some jobs get crappy gifts, others get good ones, some get amazing gifts. This is a fact. If anything, I think the inequality of JP Gifts demonstrates SE's limited vision of the future, or the lack of understanding of the jobs. They don't seem to have a vision for some jobs in the game's future, so they just give them basic gifts that are "neat". If anything, the values on some of them could be adjusted to help make up for the lack of a game changing gift. Or just change it altogether. Example: Take away enhanced martial arts for MNK, give crit rate+5%. That's just one example.

Finally: nerfing BLU will only make the game harder. It won't make other jobs like DRK or PUP any better.

[Ketaru]

It's especially bad in the case of RDM, where BLU has more or less become a better RDM. You're a much more balanced caster/melee hybrid, you're a hell of a lot more powerful, and you still have party wide buffs, at the cost of not having the powerful disables RDM has, but on the flip side, it's extremely difficult to land those disables on things that matter anyways. What would you even do to bring RDM back into playability, when comparing it to the bar BLU has set

The two jobs don't even compete for the same party spot. If you want to go by BLU's current desired role alone, yes RDM can self-skillchain Light/Darkness fairly consistently. Probably has an easier time of it than most other melee jobs. And if a group I'm in just wanted me to do Light, regardless of how much damage the weaponskills themselves actually do, I'm sure RDM could easily do it.

You know what I want for RDM right now? More Magic Burst Damage bonuses. That would make it far more competitive. As it is now, it doesn't even hold a candle to what BLM and SCH can do. Let's get rid of that Shield Mastery BS and give the job a few more traits of Magic Burst Damage.

[Kassaiemi]

The two jobs don't even compete for the same party spot. If you want to go by BLU's current desired role alone, yes RDM can self-skillchain Light/Darkness fairly consistently. Probably has an easier time of it than most other melee jobs. And if a group I'm in just wanted me to do Light, regardless of how much damage the weaponskills themselves actually do, I'm sure RDM could easily do it.

You know what I want for RDM right now? More Magic Burst Damage bonuses. That would make it far more competitive. As it is now, it doesn't even hold a candle to what BLM and SCH can do. Let's get rid of that Shield Mastery BS and give the job a few more traits of Magic Burst Damage.

Maybe I'm just way off base then. It just really seems lousy that the biggest part of RDM's kit, the hugely powerful enfeebles, gets kicked to the curb by NMs sitting there going "lol immune" until you land one for a whopping ten seconds when it's at 35%, and there's BLU doing caster/swordsman better, and SCH doing white mage+black mage better. Maybe RDM is just spread too thin or something. Or it's because the only RDM I've ever really known is my own terribly geared RDM.

RDMs being able to get absurdly huge magic bursts without necessarily having great non-magic burst spell damage would be a pretty rad thing though. It'd be super relevant in the current setup, anyways.

[CrAZYVIC]

Im Bored at the Job So... For balance jobs i think Square need start with Minor Buffs then Move to High Buffs

Nerfing its never the Way to go. I could do something like this if will be Ultimate Udate. Based on this Buffs, create the New Ambuscade, New Super Notrious NMS, New Battlefields and Add Extreme to the actual Battlefields with better Gear.

Extreme Ambuscade ILV140 - 8 to 12 Players
Extreme Nostalgic Old battlefields ILV140 8 to 12 Players
Extreme Skirmish ILV140 8 to 12 Players
Extreme Escha Hyper NM ILV140 8 to 12 players
Extreme Vagary ILV140 8 to 12 Players
Hyper Apex Monsters ILV140 EXP party monsters

Using Same content just changing Stats to avoid they use lots of resources.

BLU, THF, DNC, NIN, PUP, BST, SMN - Support DPS Type Jobs. Buffs same class dont stack.

BLU, THF, DNC, BRD, COR, RNG, RDM Will Posses DW1 at LV10

BLU, DNC, NIN If use /THF as Sub job will Recelve Full potency of Sneak/Trick Attack exactly like main THF.

THF = Increase Critical Hit rate Melee/Magic 15% / Critical Refresh 5 Tick if Crit 10 Tick. Two Party Buffs Aura 20 metters. Warding Circle Will be usable THF Only Duration 5 min

NIN = Increase Critical Hit Damage Melee/Magic 15% / Effect of Cure/Waltz Received + 10% Aura Effects 20 Metters. Ancient Circle Will be usable NIN Only Now duration 5 min

DNC = Haste Samba Increase Double Attack Rate/Double Shot Rate 15% / Aura Regen 20 Tick 20 metters away. Arcane Circle will be usable DNC only Now Duration 5 Min

BLU = MA ACC/Magic Attack Bonus 15% / Reduces Cost all Spells 10% Aura 20 metters area effect. Holy Circle will be usagle by BLU Only duration 5 Min

PUP = Increase Attack/Accuracy 15% for Pet Jobs / Increase Pet Level by +2 Regen + 15 To Pets Aura 20 metters. Killer Instinct Will be Usable of PUP too Duration 5 Mins, this will affect Any Pet in the party, automaton Included

BST = Increase Pet Double Attack Rate +15% / Increase pet LV +2 and Pet HP +15% Aura Effect. Killer Instinct Duration 5 Min.

SMN = Increase MA ACC/ MA Attack Bonus for pets 15% / Increase Pet level +2 Aura 20 metters. Killer Instinct Duration 5 mins affects any Pet on the party. Avatars Included
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heavy DPS Balance

DRK = Weapon DMG +60, Last Resort Duration 5 Mins GCD 60 seconds, Last Resort Defense Penalty its removed, WS Damage +50% all Hits.

DRG = Weapon DMG +60, Dragon Rage Increase attack 30% duration 5 min, WS Damage +50% All Hits. Dragon Rage will Trigger Desperate Blows 25% JA Haste

WAR = Weapon DMG +60, Berserk Duration 5 Mins GCD 60 seconds, Berserk Defense penalty its removed, WS Damage +50% All Hits. Berserk Will trigger Desperate Blows 25% JA Haste

SAM = Weapon DMG +60, Bushido Fury Increase attack 30% Duration 5 Min GCD 60 seconds, WS Damage +50% All Hits. Bushido Fury will trigger Desperate Blows 15% JA haste

MNK = Weapon DMG +60, Impetus duration 5 min GCD 60 seconds, caps 25% Attack and 5% Critical hit rate, WS Damage +50% all Hits. Impetus Wil Trigger Desperate Blows 25% JA haste and Martial Arts will add 3 Accuracy Each Tier.

RNG = Weapon DMG +60, Falcon Eye Shot increase RA attack 30% Duration 5 Min GCD 60 seconds, WS damage +50% All Hits. Falcon Eye Shot Occ Double Shot 12%

This Jobs will use 0.90 of their Stats instead of 0.75. Max HP increase 25%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RDM = Pain Reduces Enemy Physical/Magical Defense 20%. Miasma Reduces enemy Attack/MA attack 20%. Ultra Gravity. Reduces Evasion/Magical Evasion 20%. Composture if RDM Mele Aura 20 Metters 15% Accuracy for all party Members Comp can be used DW Now. Max Amount of Debuffs x2.

SCH = Hastega II, Refreshga II, Regenga III. Extreme Light arts increase Potency Cure spells 5%, Extreme Dark Arts, increase potency of BLM spells 5%.

WHM = Cleric Stance Increase 25% Cure Potency II, Increase Max Mp 25%, Stoneskinaga 60 Secs Cooldown, Esunaga II.

BLM = VIVI'S Soul. Increase 25% Nuking spells Potency II and Increase Max MP 25%.

COR = Can Use 4 Dices and Can Stack Two times Same Dice. Having a Corsair in a Party will Increase 5% The effect of 1H Jobs Buffs-Circles included. Max Amount of Dices per party x4. Dices Will be Aura 25 Metters

BRD = Imperial March Haste +30%, Imperial Minuet Attack/RA Attack/MA attack + 25%, Imperial Madrigal Accuracy/RA ACC/MA ACC +25%, Imperial Balad, Refresh/Regen +10 Tick. Having a BRD in a party will Increase 5% The potency of 1H buffs-Circles included. Max amount of Songs per party x4, BRD can use 4 Songs by vanilla. Songs will be Auras 25 Metters

Having R/M/E/A LV75 at least Increase Songs duration +120 Seconds and resist Dispel +10%.

Geo Mancer will Not receive Any Change.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tanks

PLD = Ultimate Shield. Reforge Aegis/O.Chain into a Single Shield Keeping Both stats 10 000 Plutons. ILV75 Aegis and ILV90 O.Chain are necessary to Reforge.

RuneFencer = Tank Stance Increase Max Hp 50% ,Effect of Cure/Waltz Received +50% I, Damage Taken Reduction -50% I.

[Secondplanet]

SMN = Increase MA ACC/ MA Attack Bonus for pets 15% / Increase Pet level +2 Aura 20 metters. Killer Instinct Duration 5 mins affects any Pet on the party. Avatars Included

That could be a decent start but i think Avatars Favor should have a double sided effect, one for the party and a detrimental effect for the monster we're fighting so like Ifrit's double attack would give the monster attack down. Also i think they should increase avatars resistance to elemental magics that they are strong against so if you use lighting against Titan it should have a very high resistance rate since they are the personifications of the elements themselves.

[VoiceMemo]

BRD = Imperial March Haste +30%, Imperial Minuet Attack/RA Attack/MA attack + 25%, Imperial Madrigal Accuracy/RA ACC/MA ACC +25%, Imperial Balad, Refresh/Regen +10 Tick. Having a BRD in a party will Increase 5% The potency of 1H buffs-Circles included.


While the percents are good, highly unlikely as for accuracy they would not combine as for Ranged ACC is prelude



Max amount of Songs per party x4


Er, NO, what about 6 brds in 1 party, I used to love brd burn parties with 20+ songs.



BRD can use 4 Songs by vanilla. Songs will be Auras 25 Metters


if nq brd can use 4 songs by default Emp brd should be able to use 6.



Having R/M/E/A LV75 at least Increase Songs duration +120 Seconds and resist Dispel +10%.


This is no buff, REM + song specific gear already boosts songs by 133.2 seconds so this would be a nerf.

[dmuller30]

SMN = Increase MA ACC/ MA Attack Bonus for pets 15% / Increase Pet level +2 Aura 20 metters. Killer Instinct Duration 5 mins affects any Pet on the party. Avatars Included
.

Although this is nice I would love a bit more for SMN. To me SMN should either be equal on both support and dps or one or the other. It's dps is a little mediocre at best and it's buffs are super dated. Maybe feeding the players stats to your pet with some modifiers to make them more balanced, and upping the cap on the pets wards would make a world of difference.

[OmnysValefor]

Crazyvic, you clearly don't play most of those jobs in order to think those ideas are beneficial.

While Aegis and Ochain could use some buffs (Ochain is no longer king of blocking, and Aegis blocks as often as a Styrofoam cup), PLD doesn't need a blocker that blocks so much magic damage. I would like to see Aegis block a little more but it's asking to be OP to meld the shields into one, especially only requiring the lowest-level versions. I do think that the legendary shield, Ochain, should be a better blocker than the JSE shield. I just don't think PLD needs this reforged thing you're talking about.

BLM, WHM, and SCH don't need any buffs, and neither does BLU.

Giving BLU or any job that doesn't already have it native Dual Wield is nonsense and giving that "aura" of yours to BLU would even more certainly make it the melee of choice (if a melee is needed) in mana burns.

And what, you want to give Rune Fencer -50% dt as a side effect of a stance? It would make it a preferential damage dealer (skillchain partner) in a lot of content. ("Stack all the offensive stats you want, your runes and Tank stance will protect you")

SCH doesn't need Hastega II, though accession working with Haste 1 would be nice (both for sch/rdm, sch/whm and whm/sch, rdm/sch). SCH's already have Regen-ga due to accession. How do you not know this?

[zataz]

i think if they made a "ultimate shield" out of aegis and ochain it should be made with both at 99 level. with plates being buyable with hallmarks u have no reason to not 99 it.

[dmuller30]

Enmity also needs a huge work around ripping hate of PLD on easier mobs is just horrible.

[cengeal]

I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but I think SCH needs to be "adjusted". A backline job that can repeatedly self SC while remaining out of harm's way is just... stupid.

What I'm proposing is simple, but would not eliminate the viability, merely the practicality of the strategy. I say any SC that closes with Immanence should have a Magic Burst damage penalty. Let's say this is a small amount (-20%). The Average BLM will have zero chance of capping damage with this penalty. Now, let's say this is an extreme amount (-50%). This would help the "safer, but takes longer" aspect of strategies. And a poorly geared team would basically be required to either A) change their approach or B) go get A LOT better.

Another idea is: have spells do a % of the damage that the skillchain dealt. For example, if a SCH's distortion did 2,000 damage, the Magic Burst could only deal up to 1000% of that (20,000). This is just an example, I think each level nuke should have its own equation and damage multiplier. This would make the actual SC damage relevant again. This would also help entice players into making more multiple step SC's, which could help nukers hit the damage cap.

Like I said, I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this. I know it won't make meleeing things any easier. But... it just might make it more preferable. A safe strategy should not be the ideal strategy. I know a lot needs to happen on the road to rebalancing jobs. I'm completely convinced there will be some people that disagree with this so much they will condemn me on these forums, but I don't care.

[OmnysValefor]

Immanence is the elephant in the room that noone talks about. That's for sure.

[dmuller30]

I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but I think SCH needs to be "adjusted". A backline job that can repeatedly self SC while remaining out of harm's way is just... stupid.

What I'm proposing is simple, but would not eliminate the viability, merely the practicality of the strategy. I say any SC that closes with Immanence should have a Magic Burst damage penalty. Let's say this is a small amount (-20%). The Average BLM will have zero chance of capping damage with this penalty. Now, let's say this is an extreme amount (-50%). This would help the "safer, but takes longer" aspect of strategies. And a poorly geared team would basically be required to either A) change their approach or B) go get A LOT better.

Another idea is: have spells do a % of the damage that the skillchain dealt. For example, if a SCH's distortion did 2,000 damage, the Magic Burst could only deal up to 1000% of that (20,000). This is just an example, I think each level nuke should have its own equation and damage multiplier. This would make the actual SC damage relevant again. This would also help entice players into making more multiple step SC's, which could help nukers hit the damage cap.

Like I said, I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this. I know it won't make meleeing things any easier. But... it just might make it more preferable. A safe strategy should not be the ideal strategy. I know a lot needs to happen on the road to rebalancing jobs. I'm completely convinced there will be some people that disagree with this so much they will condemn me on these forums, but I don't care.

Getting better really has nothing to do with it. The mobs are unbalanced with AOE spam. We need DT sets for melee because the amount of aoe spam they have to deal with is garbage. Taking away from the player community by putting a 20%- on magic bursts wouldn't be the route to go unless SE wants a bunch of mad customers. It just needs to be reformed so that way each job is useful like the lvl 75 days. Back in those days each job was useful there were preffered jobs but all jobs could go do end game content, unlike range/ mage only content we have today.

[OmnysValefor]

Getting better really has nothing to do with it. The mobs are unbalanced with AOE spam. We need DT sets for melee because the amount of aoe spam they have to deal with is garbage. Taking away from the player community by putting a 20%- on magic bursts wouldn't be the route to go unless SE wants a bunch of mad customers. It just needs to be reformed so that way each job is useful like the lvl 75 days. Back in those days each job was useful there were preffered jobs but all jobs could go do end game content, unlike range/ mage only content we have today.

AOE Spam is part of it, but there's a lot more going on than that. Enfeebling AOES (especially paralyzes so potent that you can't remedy and no practical way to remove Amensia, and even a well timed Blind by the boss) are a huge part of it.

Said it before, say it again: Melee require too much babysitting when a pair of scholars can do the same job far more efficiently, in lesser gear. (An evaded attack means a miss. A magic-evaded attack means a resist). Since your party will have some mages (50-99k MBs for minimal tp feed and minimal hate is too lovely not to embrace), its easier with just mages. The GEO buffs to favor them and doesn't worry about melee who aren't there.

And each job did not have a use at 75 besides niche fights. They were called lolpup and lolbst for a reason. DNC was pretty awful, THF and sometimes DRG were only wanted for TH and Angon. SCH replaced SMN for buff-magic.

[xiozen]

In review of the "gifts"...I'm wondering if this concept really continues to hold true for jobs that have already been mastered... since the gifts do provide over time and cumulatively, a significant boost to all aspects of the job (phy def, mag def, mag attk, attck, acc, mag acc etc. etc.) unless some gifts don't provide these types of boosts on the way to 2100... if all jobs receive these benefits, is rebalancing necessary??? I've personally witnessed the difficulties of a mastered "master" bst, "NOT" being one-shotted during sinister reign vs, non-mastered jobs getting wiped during the 1st aoe...

[dmuller30]

AOE Spam is part of it, but there's a lot more going on than that. Enfeebling AOES (especially paralyzes so potent that you can't remedy and no practical way to remove Amensia, and even a well timed Blind by the boss) are a huge part of it.

Said it before, say it again: Melee require too much babysitting when a pair of scholars can do the same job far more efficiently, in lesser gear. (An evaded attack means a miss. A magic-evaded attack means a resist). Since your party will have some mages (50-99k MBs for minimal tp feed and minimal hate is too lovely not to embrace), its easier with just mages. The GEO buffs to favor them and doesn't worry about melee who aren't there.

And each job did not have a use at 75 besides niche fights. They were called lolpup and lolbst for a reason. DNC was pretty awful, THF and sometimes DRG were only wanted for TH and Angon. SCH replaced SMN for buff-magic.

Every job had some purpose there wasn't lolpup when it had it's over powered ja set and bst well you are right there lol. . . . . DNC on Titan / Pheonix servers were pretty nice I don't have any clue what you are talking about DNC and THF were both used pretty fairly in the HNMLS I was inm because DNC could survive so many different things that other jobs couldn't and could help keep a party alive while putting out dps. THF still had its uses and so did a good DRG. SMN . . . . don't even get me started on what that job needs because the list on that job is enough to write a novel about, I don't understand why that job has never really caught up with the other jobs in the entire what 13/14 years the game has been out? Anyways back at lvl 75 there were the preferred jobs but they weren't set in stone as must have jobs like we have now.

[Fae]

Although this is nice I would love a bit more for SMN. To me SMN should either be equal on both support and dps or one or the other. It's dps is a little mediocre at best and it's buffs are super dated. Maybe feeding the players stats to your pet with some modifiers to make them more balanced, and upping the cap on the pets wards would make a world of difference.

I play a lot of SMN and don't really favor either suggestion lol :( To me SMN is about making those 30 second recasts count and then they become amazing when you unleash one hours. Our wards are very lacking at the moment though. Phalanx and stoneskin effects super weak compared to player version using accession. Evasion and accuracy buffs/debuffs are not worth using compared to even what some DD can do, including shiva's high level pact for debuffing evasion. Compare Distract III of rdm to the -25 evasion Shiva gives or Feint of a THF, which maybe you could come up with some argument for. But considering you can sub rdm and give -35 evasion from tier I distract and a high level pact of Shiva gives -25 evasion seems really off to me.

There's a lot more so I am hoping the update will really help us. In fact if I sub rdm in the 30 seconds it takes to cast one blood pact ward I can have better phalanx, better stoneskin, better evasion down, better shell effect than shining ruby and depending on my def rating better protect. Having more power from subjob vs 30 second recast pacts is not good for SMN at all. While we do have some powerful wards, like Earthen Armor, and Hastega II, they represent when wards do what they are supposed to do... be powerful party wide buffs or debuffs on the mob with long duration and long recasts. Back in the day it was awesome to see SMN keep up haste 1 and aerial armor on an entire party and keep you safe with stone skin, phalanx effect etc. Now I feel like why do I have these wards at all if /rdm subjob beats them.

Favor is nice but you are limited in where your pet can be and what pet you can have out. If the mob isn't weak to ice, you get to stand there and do nothing the entire fight after you cast a few wards if you are asked to give MAB to a mage party. But why would they ask you when COR is far easier to gear as a support up to speed and there's a lot more of them and they can give magic acc and mab at the same time? Dream shroud depending on time of day gives you some edge but not enough to make up for an entire other roll. You could conflag strike and impact. But the mobs don't tell you when debuffs wear to reapply and while you reapply poof goes the favor and has to rebuild. SMN can do a lot but they don't let us make a choice between support and do damage and due to how favor works unless you're very luck on the mobs weaknesses you'll never really be doing both, and if you are lucky enough to have them be both, you have to make them miss favor sometimes to reapply debuffs or do damage if the mob is too far away. Even if you stack all our outdated buffs at one time, and do favor, people will prefer COR every time. And COR isn't even strictly a support it can deal heavy damage and while I agree SMN can do great damage if you unleash your one hours, the rest the time it can't keep up to other mages simply due to recast.

Unlike BRD, GEO and BLU we also can't cap magical haste so at most we over load with indi-haste or save a bard one song. BLU it can work but if their stacking haste is dispelled it's welp. Basically there's no role SMN fill well, and if you try to do both support and damage, you miss out on avatars favor nearly totally and our old wards a lot of them sub rdm is better than them. So as it stands now people only respect SMN for three things: 1 hour ability, which just makes it sort of like a BST that has better magic burst options, and no physical AoE and Mewing lullaby on a few hard nms to lock out TP moves, which with enough support subbing summoner a full smn isn't needed then either. So that leaves... 1 hour and flaming crush on weak mobs as the third. Flaming crush doesn't scale well at all though so around t1 reisenjima it's not really that useful at all and you start using things like volt strike instead. I thought SE was gonna try to fix SMN from being just a 1 hour tool. Alexander was weakened a lot, and now we can do awesome damage every hour, but we still just slaves to that 1 hour timer. SMN needs to be useful enough while that's down to get party invites if you are seriously considering balancing it. I should mention too, if people screw up skillchains or bubbles when you 1 hour, or a badly times amnesia or petrify goes off on the avatar or it's killed mid 1 hour, it becomes pretty much a useless strategy so it has downsides too. I like the idea of SMN being able to unleash the full potential of an avatar every hour. But it being the main thing it's used for as a job is stale and resetting 1 hours every time you wanna do something hard that sch blm and geo can do w/o 1 hours gets very old very fast. I realize people are tired of hearing about SMN rants probably from me and a few others in particular, but these are what are actually facing SMN as a job right now if you look at endgame with endgame event LS, and like it or not people play to endgame strats because that's where they want to eventually belong so if you can't fix it there you can't fix it anywhere else.

[dmuller30]

I play a lot of SMN and don't really favor either suggestion lol :( To me SMN is about making those 30 second recasts count and then they become amazing when you unleash one hours. Our wards are very lacking at the moment though. Phalanx and stoneskin effects super weak compared to player version using accession. Evasion and accuracy buffs/debuffs are not worth using compared to even what some DD can do, including shiva's high level pact for debuffing evasion. Compare Distract III of rdm to the -25 evasion Shiva gives or Feint of a THF, which maybe you could come up with some argument for. But considering you can sub rdm and give -35 evasion from tier I distract and a high level pact of Shiva gives -25 evasion seems really off to me.

There's a lot more so I am hoping the update will really help us. In fact if I sub rdm in the 30 seconds it takes to cast one blood pact ward I can have better phalanx, better stoneskin, better evasion down, better shell effect than shining ruby and depending on my def rating better protect. Having more power from subjob vs 30 second recast pacts is not good for SMN at all. While we do have some powerful wards, like Earthen Armor, and Hastega II, they represent when wards do what they are supposed to do... be powerful party wide buffs or debuffs on the mob with long duration and long recasts. Back in the day it was awesome to see SMN keep up haste 1 and aerial armor on an entire party and keep you safe with stone skin, phalanx effect etc. Now I feel like why do I have these wards at all if /rdm subjob beats them.

Favor is nice but you are limited in where your pet can be and what pet you can have out. If the mob isn't weak to ice, you get to stand there and do nothing the entire fight after you cast a few wards if you are asked to give MAB to a mage party. But why would they ask you when COR is far easier to gear as a support up to speed and there's a lot more of them and they can give magic acc and mab at the same time? Dream shroud depending on time of day gives you some edge but not enough to make up for an entire other roll. You could conflag strike and impact. But the mobs don't tell you when debuffs wear to reapply and while you reapply poof goes the favor and has to rebuild. SMN can do a lot but they don't let us make a choice between support and do damage and due to how favor works unless you're very luck on the mobs weaknesses you'll never really be doing both, and if you are lucky enough to have them be both, you have to make them miss favor sometimes to reapply debuffs or do damage if the mob is too far away. Even if you stack all our outdated buffs at one time, and do favor, people will prefer COR every time. And COR isn't even strictly a support it can deal heavy damage and while I agree SMN can do great damage if you unleash your one hours, the rest the time it can't keep up to other mages simply due to recast.

Unlike BRD, GEO and BLU we also can't cap magical haste so at most we over load with indi-haste or save a bard one song. BLU it can work but if their stacking haste is dispelled it's welp. Basically there's no role SMN fill well, and if you try to do both support and damage, you miss out on avatars favor nearly totally and our old wards a lot of them sub rdm is better than them. So as it stands now people only respect SMN for three things: 1 hour ability, which just makes it sort of like a BST that has better magic burst options, and no physical AoE and Mewing lullaby on a few hard nms to lock out TP moves, which with enough support subbing summoner a full smn isn't needed then either. So that leaves... 1 hour and flaming crush on weak mobs as the third. Flaming crush doesn't scale well at all though so around t1 reisenjima it's not really that useful at all and you start using things like volt strike instead. I thought SE was gonna try to fix SMN from being just a 1 hour tool. Alexander was weakened a lot, and now we can do awesome damage every hour, but we still just slaves to that 1 hour timer. SMN needs to be useful enough while that's down to get party invites if you are seriously considering balancing it. I should mention too, if people screw up skillchains or bubbles when you 1 hour, or a badly times amnesia or petrify goes off on the avatar or it's killed mid 1 hour, it becomes pretty much a useless strategy so it has downsides too. I like the idea of SMN being able to unleash the full potential of an avatar every hour. But it being the main thing it's used for as a job is stale and resetting 1 hours every time you wanna do something hard that sch blm and geo can do w/o 1 hours gets very old very fast. I realize people are tired of hearing about SMN rants probably from me and a few others in particular, but these are what are actually facing SMN as a job right now if you look at endgame with endgame event LS, and like it or not people play to endgame strats because that's where they want to eventually belong so if you can't fix it there you can't fix it anywhere else.

It was just a suggestion but yes the wards are super ineffective and this is widely known even by people who are not SMN. I am a SMN since the good old PS2 release after getting my job to lvl 30 SMN was the first job I went for. Right now playing SMN I switched to BLU just for the simple fact the SMN just isn't enough atm. I love SMN don't get me wrong but seeing other jobs that can out DPS it pretty easily is very unreasonable. One of the biggest things I find wrong with SMN is it's 30 second timer, to me this isn't the greatest we can spike every 30 seconds while the amount our avatar hits for + the low rate of hitting means we truly shine only every 30 seconds. While the BLM and the BLU next to us already totally out DPSed us a long time ago. Not to mention the aoe spam our Avatars have to endure along with any enfeebs because they are close range. I don't know how many times I went to BP and bam my Avatar is dead and my BP timer is wasted. We are no longer viable buffers because most jobs can do it better we have longer timers on our buffs but they are a fraction of what someone else can do.

In every Reisnjima party (sorry for the spelling), that I have been in I have never once used avatars favor its not necessary any more. Maybe in a CP party but that is about it. And since there buffs are garbage that puts them in the DPS slot which they are still vastly behind most other DPS. And referring to the other SMN in our group who mains it just like I did for years his Flaming crush does about 20-50k on t1-t3 on all escha mobs it really all come down to how much acc + bp damage you can put on those Merlinic pieces or apogee pieces that will make them hit better (Nirvana helps a ton, also Gridavor fully upgraded). Same goes for nuking but with magic acc. But any BP can hit super hard but having a 30 second wait time while other DPS can do the same on a WS or spell faster is just plain silly. SMN needs some tweaking and I feel that it wouldn't even be that hard to make it as balanced as other DPS.

[Dale]

Crazyvic, you clearly don't play most of those jobs in order to think those ideas are beneficial.

While Aegis and Ochain could use some buffs (Ochain is no longer king of blocking,

So what is the new king of blocking?

[OmnysValefor]

Every job had some purpose there wasn't lolpup when it had it's over powered ja set and bst well you are right there lol. . . . . DNC on Titan / Pheonix servers were pretty nice I don't have any clue what you are talking about DNC and THF were both used pretty fairly in the HNMLS I was inm because DNC could survive so many different things that other jobs couldn't and could help keep a party alive while putting out dps. THF still had its uses and so did a good DRG. SMN . . . . don't even get me started on what that job needs because the list on that job is enough to write a novel about, I don't understand why that job has never really caught up with the other jobs in the entire what 13/14 years the game has been out? Anyways back at lvl 75 there were the preferred jobs but they weren't set in stone as must have jobs like we have now.

When DNC was introduced, DNC did similar dmg to thf without SATA to back it up. DNC at 75 (at least for the first year or two of WoTG) was impotent.

BST at 75? It was basically a warrior without any offensive ability, and since it did its best with /nin, it got nothing from sub either. The pets were laughable because they couldn't hit anything remotely difficult.

BST is in a good spot now and was in a really great spot for a long time, but it was crap at 75. THF was used for two things -- Treasure hunter and hate-control and if it didn't have TH, noone would have brought it.


So what is the new king of blocking?

Don't laugh, Priwen while Reprisal is up--so you build yourself a good haste/fc set and cast Reprisal in that. Aeonic blocks more-per-hit (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Srivatsa) but blocks much less often. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but SE is fine with where shields are at.

[Stompa]

BST at 75? It was basically a warrior without any offensive ability, and since it did its best with /nin, it got nothing from sub either. The pets were laughable because they couldn't hit anything remotely difficult.

BST is in a good spot now and was in a really great spot for a long time, but it was crap at 75.



In 2005 I watched a girl on Remora, as she solo'd Xolotl on BST75/whm. She was charming the hidden Antlions and running away, for hours. She won. Xol was an alliance mob at the time.

In 2005 I got my Ohat, in a group 3/18. Me and two other BST75/whm, we trio'd Haku using charmed eyes. Haku was an alliance mob at the time.

Also in 2005 I solo'd Alkyoneus on BST/whm, using charmed bats and stop jugs. He was quite a powerful mob to solo at the time.

I'm not wanting to start an argument here, and I would completely agree with you that BST JugPets were incredibly weak, and had miserable accuracy. I totally agree with you on that. But that doesn't mean Bst75 "was crap." Bst75 was a master of the wilderness, and in the wild lands Bst was the most powerful job in FFXI.

In BCNM / Sky / Mission battles / etc., Bst was forced to us JugPets, and was indeed crap. But in the wilderness, Bst was completely mighty, the mightiest job of all.
:)

[OmnysValefor]

We don't have to "argue" Stompa. We can have polite debate or disagreement :).

I'd heard of Xolotl solos by BST but never saw it. I had never heard of BSTs vs O.Hat NM (that I reacall), but cool^^.

A monk solo'd genbu by boost>boost...>boost Chi Blasting for a long long time. While these feats are respectable, it doesn't say as much about the job as it does about the player (skill and endurance). These jobs were still not wanted in endgame activities. My very first EGLS had an Armadaberk. He had every piece of gear a WAR would want, and he played BST. He enjoyed it, and that was fine, but he did lackluster damage and CourierCarrie contributed nothing to be even worth the rewards.

Lots of jobs could do amazing things in the game world, but the point I'm replying to is that all jobs were useful at 75 in endgame (the thread, after all, is called Job Balancing).

[Urthdigger]

In review of the "gifts"...I'm wondering if this concept really continues to hold true for jobs that have already been mastered... since the gifts do provide over time and cumulatively, a significant boost to all aspects of the job (phy def, mag def, mag attk, attck, acc, mag acc etc. etc.) unless some gifts don't provide these types of boosts on the way to 2100... if all jobs receive these benefits, is rebalancing necessary??? I've personally witnessed the difficulties of a mastered "master" bst, "NOT" being one-shotted during sinister reign vs, non-mastered jobs getting wiped during the 1st aoe...

Yes, even with gifts job balancing is a major issue. For starters, the gap between melee and magic effectiveness is just that massive, but there's also the issue of jobs where the gifts don't help them. Take monk for instance: Almost all their job specific gifts (so, minus things like small amounts of att/acc, superior equipment, capacity point bonuses, etc) are things that help counter and guard. You know, for all the tanking people have monk doing. The one gift that does "help" damage is a martial arts bonus, but that speeds up attacks while reducing TP gained, and if we can already hit the delay cap that's actually a straight up detriment.

[OmnysValefor]

Can't resist, have to add--

PLDs JP categories and gifts are also lackluster, and it's 1200 (Reprisal deals more damage) might actually be detrimental to the job. It depends on how the formula for increased damage is applied.

[OmnysValefor]

You make good points, but if you're willing to look beyond the "core endgame-activities", then the jobs are well balanced. Ninja, RDM, SMN can all solo things that not many other jobs can quite so easily and reliably. Although so can BLU and SCH.

There is presently things in this game that every job can be good at, but that doesn't excuse the fact that less than 10 jobs go to most events (PLD, WHM, GEO, SCH, BLM, BLU, THF if TH is worth the effort). RUN would also be welcome, but there are far more geared PLDs thatn RUNs. Not too many bring out their WARs, DRKs, RDMs, CORs, BRDs, DRG, SAMs or even DNCs. BST has its uses, but the group almost needs to be built around the BST, so you take several. I know that PUP is capable, I've just never played with a capable PUP.

Someone in one of my LSs the other day said "I love the current endgame model". His mains? PLD, BLU, BLM. He loves it because he can get in almost any group. My mains? PLD, GEO, BLU--but I can see beyond it. I'm tired of telling my friends that we just don't need a warrior for this NM. I can't help it, I want to win and it's far-easier to kill it with mages. Noone wins a trophy for banging their head against a wall trying to make a melee strat happen, whether or not they succeed. You don't unlock a superior piece of gear for placing an unnecessary challenge on your group.

[dmuller30]

May SMN update . . . . . What just happened . . . . . Are they even listening to their player base?

[Secondplanet]

May SMN update . . . . . What just happened . . . . . Are they even listening to their player base?

I'm still in disbelief over the whole 700 smn magic thing, its Alexander all over again. Expecting smn to reach an at the time impossible level of smn magic to get the full effect out of our abilites.

[OmnysValefor]

I'm still in disbelief over the whole 700 smn magic thing, its Alexander all over again. Expecting smn to reach an at the time impossible level of smn magic to get the full effect out of our abilites.

I just don't understand why they'd bother with this, even searching the page for "summoner", this is the only thing they changed. I don't play summoner, I can't say whether it needs buffs or nerfs but this just seems ... weird?

My summoner friends have been anxious about this for weeks and all it is is a change to Elemental Siphon.

lol.

[dmuller30]

I just don't understand why they'd bother with this, even searching the page for "summoner", this is the only thing they changed. I don't play summoner, I can't say whether it needs buffs or nerfs but this just seems ... weird?

My summoner friends have been anxious about this for weeks and all it is is a change to Elemental Siphon.

lol.

A couple of my SMN friends including myself are raging really hard about this. . . We feel like we literally just got trolled by SE. Just to break down what the skill does is you summon a elemental pet, then you drain mp from it. The only deal with this is once you are decently geared this skill is obsolete . . . . Every event me and my SMN friends go to we never even once use this skill, refresh does it all for us. Our BP timers are so long our MP is practically full by the time our next one comes around or it is full if you have a refresh set. Not to mention with trusts we constantly have refresh thanks to them even if it is only refresh II it manages to keep our mp well over halfway full or full depending on refresh set. I was soooo excited about this update been waiting weeks, and bam its elemental siphon. . . . . Even when soloing there is way more efficient ways of getting mp back. . . Spirit taker/ Myrkr (missing spelling) / refresh / convert. When your pet is tanking while you are soloing which I always seem to have trust out so I don't need elemental siphon, you don't really want to release your pet that is tanking on the off chance that mob might come and aoe you then kill you or barrage you with ailments that won't allow further summoning or recovery time.

[OmnysValefor]

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

The only true mage that it seems like MP is ever an issue for is GEOs in certain content if aspir is not available/reliable--but then you just slow down nuking.

Them and of course BLMs Death-spamming.

[dmuller30]

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

The only true mage that it seems like MP is ever an issue for is GEOs in certain content if aspir is not available/reliable--but then you just slow down nuking.

Them and of course BLMs Death-spamming.

Haha sorry for the frustrated rant. I am also GEO and I agree I am constantly converting sometimes lol. I may just not be good at the job to keep my MP in check :P.

[Urthdigger]

There is presently things in this game that every job can be good at.

Name one thing, ONE THING, that MNK is good at. Something folks actually care about.

[dmuller30]

Name one thing, ONE THING, that MNK is good at. Something folks actually care about.

Warming the floor for the Escha NM's ? bahahahaha

[detlef]

MNK still owns Abyssea blue procs!

[OmnysValefor]

Name one thing, ONE THING, that MNK is good at. Something folks actually care about.

LOL.

Monk farms mata mata like nobody's business!

Great example with monk. Anything I could name would seem far-reaching. Old things that don't matter or that anything can do, but that was kinda my point. If you expand the scope from bosses to "things people do at level cap", then job balance is okay. RDM/NIN is still a strong soloer, Bard is still great in melee-oriented CP parties, SAM self-skillchains faster than anyone else.

But none of that matters. What matters is that a handful of jobs are desirable at content people want to go to.

It would even be more tolerable if it was one or two jobs that were undesirable and not 10~ (estimate). It's gone from oversight to they just aren't interested in changing the current state.

[Catmato]

Name one thing, ONE THING, that MNK is good at. Something folks actually care about.

Punchin' stuff.

[Urthdigger]

Great example with monk. Anything I could name would seem far-reaching. Old things that don't matter or that anything can do, but that was kinda my point. If you expand the scope from bosses to "things people do at level cap", then job balance is okay. RDM/NIN is still a strong soloer, Bard is still great in melee-oriented CP parties, SAM self-skillchains faster than anyone else.

When's the last time you've seen someone want melee even for a CP party? Even if you expand the scope from bosses to things people do at level cap, job balance is abysmal. They can't participate in any content that earns even semi-decent gear, they can't cp (which is basically like if a pre-99 job weren't allowed to xp), literally the only thing melee can do is putz their way through content that serves absolutely no purpose besides something to do when you're super bored.

A majority of the jobs in the game are in the same boat as Lucky Roll. That is not "okay."

[OmnysValefor]

When's the last time you've seen someone want melee even for a CP party? Even if you expand the scope from bosses to things people do at level cap, job balance is abysmal. They can't participate in any content that earns even semi-decent gear, they can't cp (which is basically like if a pre-99 job weren't allowed to xp), literally the only thing melee can do is putz their way through content that serves absolutely no purpose besides something to do when you're super bored.

A majority of the jobs in the game are in the same boat as Lucky Roll. That is not "okay."

Couple of things:

First, You seem to be taking my prior defense of 'job balance ("if we expand things to what people do at level-cap...") as a serious defense. It was not. It was facetious, and while factually true, a bit sarcastic.

Second, I usually invite one melee to CP, and I don't care what job it is as long as they have sufficient accuracy (easy with jse weapon and basic 119 gear, maybe food) and can fight into Light or Darkness. It might be a blu, sam, mnk. I don't honestly care. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, I've found that buffing one good nuker in a melee oriented CP party (acumen/malaise, or haste/malaise) increases the speed more than buffing the melee. Very very sad. Says nothing about the people playing the jobs and everything about the balance. There may be some OP melee (as far as numbers they can put out), but I've still yet to see a legit 99k CDC, especially reliably so. I know people that love to setup melee oriented CP parties, but to be honest: I hate those. They're slow, CP is boring (I've tried to eliminate the crab threat. I've killed thousands, but they keep coming.) So I generally decline to go.

Yeah, that's the truth about me: As much as I wish balance was better in this game, I refuse to struggle when there are more sensible methods.

One thing I've desired for a really long time is endgame activity that gave like a whole job point per kill! Crabs, which die in 15 seconds give this during campaign, why do bosses give a fraction. That's one thing I miss about abyssea: Experience points, and even gil (via cruor or good drops), became a by-product of end-game.

---

Edit: Melee need a lot of love in this game. They take all the risk, must put in all the effort, and suffer incomparably. People use mages because mages put out as-good, if not better damage, have less gearing-demands (sc'ing scholars, healing scholars, geomancers, white mages). I live within the confines of the current game design, it doesn't mean I like it.

And also, while I joked earlier in the thread about Matamata, I think that title would go to BLU lol.

[Stompa]

I'm posting this in response to the Jobmaster unfairness feels earlier in this thread. I think WAR Gifts should not have been tiers of "Fencer" bonuses, but tiers of "2-handed accuracy / wsacc / delay" bonuses.

WAR's primary weapon is Great Axe. Our Oboro JSE weapon is Great Axe, with the nice accuracy bonus. All of our primary RMEs are Great Axes.

WAR can not equip any RME swords, even though "Fencer" means a "swordfighter" in historical terms.

So I do wish that Jobmaster Gifts for WAR, had focused on 2-handed weapons.

With the Jobmaster "Fencer" bonuses, and the mad damage of Savage Blade, my WAR does a lot more damage with swords than with Great Axes. So if I joined a group on my Jobmaster WAR, they would not want me to use Great Axe, even though it is my job's primary weapon.

I have completed RME swords for my RDM, but can not equip them on my WAR. People say "oh use an axe!" but I don't want to use an axe, I want to use Great Axes, because they are WAR's primary weapon. If I had to use a sword, I would prefer to use my RME swords on my WAR, instead of Unity swords. Failing that, I just use my Great Axe, and get further rejected and isolated from group events!

Maybe one day, SE will go back on their "no more Jobpoints tiers after 2100!" and will add some more tiers / more gifts, and will add WAR Gifts for 2-handed weapons, instead of focusing all the WAR Gifts on 1-handed weapons.

[Olor]

I wish they would just take fencer out of the game and give WAR and BST something better. Or does PLD have it? I mean if PLD has it they can keep it but it is literally the MOST useless thing for WAR and BST

Wait, people want WAR to use swords now? For serious?

[detlef]

WAR's primary weapon is Great Axe. Our Oboro JSE weapon is Great Axe, with the nice accuracy bonus. All of our primary RMEs are Great Axes.

WAR can not equip any RME swords, even though "Fencer" means a "swordfighter" in historical terms.Onion Sword says working as intended.

[OmnysValefor]

PLD doesn't get fencer. It's beyond silly that PLD and RDM don't get it (and I'm generally not a fan of melee RDM).

BST doesn't need it, you're usually dual-wielding or often swapping weapons (charmer's merlin)

WAR should get something that applies to all weapon types, even if it was only ws damage +10%. The theme of the class is proficiency in weapons.

[Ulth]

PLD doesn't get fencer. It's beyond silly that PLD and RDM don't get it (and I'm generally not a fan of melee RDM).

BST doesn't need it, you're usually dual-wielding or often swapping weapons (charmer's merlin)

WAR should get something that applies to all weapon types, even if it was only ws damage +10%. The theme of the class is proficiency in weapons.

Want to know something even more silly? Bards get fencer, and paladins don't.

[Olor]

PLD doesn't get fencer. It's beyond silly that PLD and RDM don't get it (and I'm generally not a fan of melee RDM).

BST doesn't need it, you're usually dual-wielding or often swapping weapons (charmer's merlin)

WAR should get something that applies to all weapon types, even if it was only ws damage +10%. The theme of the class is proficiency in weapons.

Wow, fencer is even worse than I thought... and bard? Really? REALLY?

[Ulth]

Anyway if I was going to fix war this is what I would do. Let's ignore fencer, basically it lets war do one hand if they choose to. Focus on abilities of war that works for both 2 hand and 1 hand wars, as well as things that would make it more desirable in a party. First I would switch the duration and recast of Warcry, Blood Rage, and Tomahawk, that way not only could they be full timed but if they get dispelled some how it's not the end of the world, you just get a little job ability delay. I would also change the merits for warcry from lowering the recast to increasing the amount of attack it gives. With full merits I think the new potency of warcry should be somewhere in the 50-60% increase in attack similar to a geo fury. As for Tomahawk instead of increasing the duration of the debuff it should increase the potency of by 5% with every merit past the first so that works out as 45%, and 50% if you use the relic legs.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Job Balance has always been a problem in FFXI, the game has a very flexible job and ability system (Unlike FFXIV who solved this problem by making every job a reskin of each other) so it comes with the package.

Sadly, I don't think there is much they can do about it. Some jobs are always going to be more requested, and now that the game is in its final years the "most requested jobs" are set in stone. It's not a good situation, but what can you do.

[Ulth]

Job Balance has always been a problem in FFXI, the game has a very flexible job and ability system (Unlike FFXIV who solved this problem by making every job a reskin of each other) so it comes with the package.

Sadly, I don't think there is much they can do about it. Some jobs are always going to be more requested, and now that the game is in its final years the "most requested jobs" are set in stone. It's not a good situation, but what can you do.

Personally I don't think the game is in its final years, and really the only job who is really set in stone is probably whm. As it stands run and pld are about on equal footing and are pretty interchangeable. Really a lot of the current problem with job balance and other jobs being more requested really boils down to melee set ups not being as viable as magic burst ones. Melee needs much more support than magic burst. That's why I suggested the changes to war like I did. They should buff up melee jobs' party buffs and let them be used full time. That way the melees in the party can support each other and you don't need 2 geos, and a brd for your melee set up. The goal of these changes should be that for a melee party you only need a geo or a brd.

It's funny some guy quoted my purposed changes to war in another thread saying it was making the job OP, but is it though? Even if the new warcry and tomahawk buffs become must haves for melee set ups, it's not like you will have whole parties of wars. You can't get warcry twice. That is what I think is genius about the changes it makes the job desirable but you don't end up like the previous bandwagons where all the DDs are blm, or all bst, or all thf, or all sam, or all mnk, or all rng, ect.

[OmnysValefor]

Ulth, I don't play Warrior ever so I held my opinion back at first but since you asked..

A fulltimeable (aside from dispels soon after use) 60% buff to attack.. Really? That does seem obnoxiously overpowered. Non-Idris GEO's attack buff isn't even that powerful. You want this on Warcry.. would you have it be as powerful for all party members? That makes warrior simply mandatory in any melee setup.

Tanks and Healers are mandatory but PLD and WHM are not, it could be RUN and SCH or in certain content RDM and NIN. GEO is mandatory because GEO is a modern job designed around modern mechanics--cor needs a buff and bard needs an overhaul. A buffer being mandatory is fine, one particular buffer being mandatory is stupid.

Your design would make warrior mandatory.

BLU is the closest thing to a mandatory melee right now because it does the best at overcoming the crappy situation all melee are in. The evasion on some of these bosses man.. it's obscene. The aoe-damage they do is insane. I don't care about single-target damage. I'm a tank, hit me harder please.

Scholars are mandatory in setups not involving melee. If you're relying on melee skillchaining, scholars and BLMs are generally interchangeable (BLM doesn't have Helix II, useful JA's, the ability to SC if the melee can't, SCH doesn't have Death, native MAB (storms help), etc).

[Ulth]

Ulth, I don't play Warrior ever so I held my opinion back at first but since you asked..

A fulltimeable (aside from dispels soon after use) 60% buff to attack.. Really? That does seem obnoxiously overpowered. Non-Idris GEO's attack buff isn't even that powerful. You want this on Warcry.. would you have it be as powerful for all party members? That makes warrior simply mandatory in any melee setup.

Tanks and Healers are mandatory but PLD and WHM are not, it could be RUN and SCH or in certain content RDM and NIN. GEO is mandatory because GEO is a modern job designed around modern mechanics--cor needs a buff and bard needs an overhaul. A buffer being mandatory is fine, one particular buffer being mandatory is stupid.

Your design would make warrior mandatory.

BLU is the closest thing to a mandatory melee right now because it does the best at overcoming the crappy situation all melee are in. The evasion on some of these bosses man.. it's obscene. The aoe-damage they do is insane. I don't care about single-target damage. I'm a tank, hit me harder please.

Scholars are mandatory in setups not involving melee. If you're relying on melee skillchaining, scholars and BLMs are generally interchangeable (BLM doesn't have Helix II, useful JA's, the ability to SC if the melee can't, SCH doesn't have Death, native MAB (storms help), etc).

War was just an example. I want all melee jobs to have something that benefits the party in that way. Sure if war was the only job that got a buff like that it wouldn't be that fair but if drg's Angon got a similar buff then to deal with attack you could take drg to lower the targets defense, or war to boost the party's attack. Is it making sense yet? Dancer can be changed so Saber and Fan dance doesn't block sambas and waltz and haste samba could be boosted making so the party needs less magic haste. Thfs could have feint and conspirator buffed and the supports wouldn't need to focus all on accuracy. Mnks could increase max hp and inhibit tp and increase the party's max HP making them harder to kill. If all the DDs had some unique buff to contribute then you could use any combination of DDs and have the support fill in the spots where the rest of the party is lacking.

[OmnysValefor]

I just don't think the job design is the problem (JP design is pretty bad in some cases).. I think it's more about the design of the content than people are willing to give it credit for.

Like I said, BLU is just among the best at overcoming the brutal design melees are up against.

[dmuller30]

I just don't think the job design is the problem (JP design is pretty bad in some cases).. I think it's more about the design of the content than people are willing to give it credit for.

Like I said, BLU is just among the best at overcoming the brutal design melees are up against.

Totally agree with this. I am a BLU main because I can't go any other melee job, because those other jobs just cannot last against the crazy requirements needed to face those mobs. Not to toot my horn but my MNK is pretty geared, and I still can't survive on it and if I want to survive on it I have to keep running away which makes me useless because I can't even land any DPS on mobs because why . . . . I have to run away from AOE every 5 seconds lol.

[Ulth]

I just don't think the job design is the problem (JP design is pretty bad in some cases).. I think it's more about the design of the content than people are willing to give it credit for.

Like I said, BLU is just among the best at overcoming the brutal design melees are up against.

It's not like I'm changing those job's designs. Those are all abilities that they have. Only for the most part they don't use them anymore, because they are too weak or don't last long. And I do agree that the content design is a big problem, some fights the AoEs do more damage than the single target attacks, but it's not like they can go through all of those fights with a fine tooth comb to fix them all. However they should keep these things in mind when making any new content.

As for blu, yes it does have spells and abilities that helps it overcome the brutal designs, so what is wrong with improving the other melee jobs' spells and abilities to help them overcome the brutal designs?

[dmuller30]

It's not like I'm changing those job's designs. Those are all abilities that they have. Only for the most part they don't use them anymore, because they are too weak or don't last long. And I do agree that the content design is a big problem, some fights the AoEs do more damage than the single target attacks, but it's not like they can go through all of those fights with a fine tooth comb to fix them all. However they should keep these things in mind when making any new content.

As for blu, yes it does have spells and abilities that helps it overcome the brutal designs, so what is wrong with improving the other melee jobs' spells and abilities to help them overcome the brutal designs?

/clap to that we need other jobs to be = to the survivablity of BLU, BLU should not be the only job that can be in the end game content.

[OmnysValefor]

Giving WAR its own indi-fury isn't quite the same thing. It won't put it in a better situation regarding accuracy, damage taken, amnesia, anything else.

BLU's mechanics (job traits), certain spells (saline coat, barrier tusk) are why it's a preferable choice. CDC's versaility, good damage, AM procs, are icing on the cake.

Edit: Other spells like its own Haste II, and of course Unbridled Spells like Mighty Guard, are very nice as well and can't be discounted.

In a lot of cases, content wouldn't have to be gone over with a fine-tooth comb.

* The evasion on some of these NMs is insane - easy to fix.
* Amnesia needs a spell given to whm and sch - easy to fix.
* Spike spells insta-gib dual wield melee - easy, to fix - make subtle blow apply -DT to spike spells.
* Completely revamp Usukane from Ambuscade. Noone would mind if it was identical to Sulevia's (replacing STP for say, DA/TA/something)


/clap to that we need other jobs to be = to the survivablity of BLU, BLU should not be the only job that can be in the end game content.

He uh, didn't actually make any suggestions regarding other melee's survivability.

Edit: I honestly believe that if Amnesia didn't shut down melee so completely (as well as gear-lockout moves), and melee weren't so prone to death, balance would be much better.

If melee didn't have a lot of risky baggage, people would use them. 2h'ers are capable of self-skillchaning (especially samurai), it's not that Dual Wield is so superior, it's just the jobs that get Dual Wield happen to have some knack for survivability and emergency self-healing (BLU's defenses, self healing, DNC's self healing, Ninja's defenses--though utsu largely obseleted by so much that wipes shadows). BLU's most useful traits are probably Accuracy Bonus (making hitting stuff easier) and DW (meaning that they can sub whatever is useful to the fight). DA/TA/STP/Skillchain Bonus/spells that increase DPS (Tenebral Crush, Nature's Meditation) aren't all such a big deal compared to the fact that blu is capable of hitting the boss and surviving the boss at the same time.

Giving Warrior all the attack in the world doesn't change this.

[Ulth]

I kinda did. If the melees can take care of their attack and accuracy on their own that opens up the supports to do things like vex, attunement, fend or scherzo.

[dmuller30]

He uh, didn't actually make any suggestions regarding other melee's survivability.



As for BLU, yes it does have spells and abilities that helps it overcome the brutal designs, so what is wrong with improving the other melee jobs' spells and abilities to help them overcome the brutal designs?
^
This is what BLUs have to make them survive. Which is the sentence I was more responding to. Improving all jobs would in turn make survivablity greater. . . .

[Urthdigger]

Job Balance has always been a problem in FFXI, the game has a very flexible job and ability system (Unlike FFXIV who solved this problem by making every job a reskin of each other) so it comes with the package.

Sadly, I don't think there is much they can do about it. Some jobs are always going to be more requested, and now that the game is in its final years the "most requested jobs" are set in stone. It's not a good situation, but what can you do.

The problem, as I've said before, is that job balance is worse nowadays than it ever was in the history of FFXI. Back at the old 75 cap days, while a few jobs were in higher demand than others, it wasn't like you couldn't do content as other jobs. They were just simply not as good.

Nowadays, the vast majority of jobs are complete and utter trash, you're literally better off bringing NOTHING than you are bringing them. Even barring the HP increase on bosses, the difference in damage between the good and trash jobs isn't an extra 25% here or there, it's more like triple the DPS, at LEAST. At the same time, the good jobs don't take damage from AoE, don't get shut down from enfeebles, don't pull hate off the tank... they're not in the same league anymore, they're not even in the same sport. That's how bad it's gotten.

[OmnysValefor]

Nowadays, the vast majority of jobs are complete and utter trash, you're literally better off bringing NOTHING than you are bringing them. Even barring the HP increase on bosses, the difference in damage between the good and trash jobs isn't an extra 25% here or there, it's more like triple the DPS, at LEAST.

Un-enfeebled and equally geared, I'm not sure the damage difference is quite triple. TBH, I'm not sure--pure DPS--what job is on top. Haven't played with mnk/war/sam/good thf/drg/dnc on anything serious in ages.


At the same time, the good jobs don't take damage from AoE, don't get shut down from enfeebles, don't pull hate off the tank... they're not in the same league anymore, they're not even in the same sport. That's how bad it's gotten.

Translation:

Good Jobs: Mages
Bad Jobs: Melee, even blu. Amnesia does the same thing to a BLU it does to every melee, as do ailments that restrict gear and item usage.

I'm not disagreeing. That pretty much sums it up.

[Helldemon]

Give every melee 15-20% DT, 15% DT II to bypass the 50% cap and a 30-35% status resist trait and that could fix melee from taking to much damage imo.

[OmnysValefor]

Giving melee -DT innately helps "right now", but it's their mindset that has to change.

Some AOE-heavy bosses are fine. Some fights where mages are superior is fine, just like melee being superior in some fights is fine. What we have here is very lopsided.

Giving melee resistance to enfeebles doesn't do much. It still screws things up when they get hit with it. Mages would still be preferable.

[Catmato]

and really the only job who is really set in stone is probably whm.

I hope not. I'm still hoping for my native dual-wield.

[Zekander]

WHM actually already has a spell to deal with amnesia. Baramnesra (yeah yeah lolbarspells). But if you actually try it, stack Baramnesra with Barfira (amnesia is fire based) and that will give you at least 50% resistance for most content (Incursion, SR, not really sure where else it's much of a problem). I've had parties in SR fighting Arcelia and Ingrid never see amnesia once with barspells up. And don't forget partial resists, with bar spells up even if it gets you, chances are good that it will be for 1/2 duration or even less.

I'm just saying that amnesia isn't really a barrier to melee, I totally agree that melee jobs need to be much more survivable. How exactly to do that without further cementing BLU as the only 'good' melee job, I don't know.

[Kensagaku]

WHM actually already has a spell to deal with amnesia. Baramnesra (yeah yeah lolbarspells). But if you actually try it, stack Baramnesra with Barfira (amnesia is fire based) and that will give you at least 50% resistance for most content (Incursion, SR, not really sure where else it's much of a problem). I've had parties in SR fighting Arcelia and Ingrid never see amnesia once with barspells up. And don't forget partial resists, with bar spells up even if it gets you, chances are good that it will be for 1/2 duration or even less.

I'm just saying that amnesia isn't really a barrier to melee, I totally agree that melee jobs need to be much more survivable. How exactly to do that without further cementing BLU as the only 'good' melee job, I don't know.

While I don't mean this in a disparaging way, I can't say that I believe this example. With my RUN's status resist set, I have 32% base resistance and a large amount of magic evasion and elemental resistance. For exact numbers: 15% status resistance from Tenacity, 17% from gear (Erilaz Gauntlets +1, Runeist Trousers +1, Hearty Earring), 406 total Meva, 98 to all elements but dark/light, which have 88 instead. Combined with three runes at max JP (+116 +213 total to the appropriate element), a Baraera from a good WHM (+185 Wind resist), and a Barsilencera from the same WHM, I still resist maybe 40% of the time against VD Garuda's Silencega. Granted, this is eyeballed, but on any sort of serious content, I imagine your "standard" melee isn't going to have nearly the same resistances with just a pair of barspells.

So yeah, amnesia is still an exceptionally large detriment to melee. I highly doubt that you'll be seeing a true 50% resist rate. But it's not just that; unremovable debuffs like the harpeia's paralyze, or potent debuffs such as an ironclad's stun or amnesia attacks combined with its max hp/mp down. Auras like golden kist's zombie aura, or charmga effects like from Vir'ava, etc. More and more content favors mages. I can't think of the last time I took my Mythic DRG to anything but Ambuscade, and certainly not to anything above T1 Reisenjima.

[detlef]

Funny thing is your DRG isn't even welcome in Ambuscade anymore.

[Kensagaku]

Funny thing is your DRG isn't even welcome in Ambuscade anymore.

Yeah but that's 'cause you need my RUN to tank so you don't explode. :P That being said, the point is still valid. This new round isn't nice for melee.

[OmnysValefor]

Is it not? I haven't even bothered with it. I need to for capes, but the rewards are just mediocre.

On to the Amnesia discussion--

When you have a spell that can shut down one kind of job, but not another kind of job, you're going to bring the other kind of job. You're going to want to, every time. Here's the thing, even if you're running a 75% resist rate on Amnesia, it halts progress on the fight when it does land. In easy content (for your group), this isn't a problem, you'll burst through it later. In harder content where timers or the threat of death (and thus an eventual wipe/loss) are an issue, you're going to bring the safest option.

There is nothing in this game that punishes mages anything like amnesia punishes melees (and tanks). This might be due to how hard it is to punish the BLMs while still letting the healer do their job.

Barele spells/Carols contribute to the magic evasion against an element vs the enemy's magic accuracy. Vex/Attune does this across the board. Older content (Delve for example) has lower magic accuracy than newer content. Barring against an element is more potent there than it is on say, Straph in Reisenjima.

[detlef]

SE has said in the past that they are against an Amnesia -na spell but the game would benefit so much from it.

[Zeargi]

SE has said in the past that they are against an Amnesia -na spell but the game would benefit so much from it.
Agreed, and to be honest, there needs to be elevated -na spells or Esuna needs to be the spell it should be in every other FF game. Mute, Muddled, Charm, and even Doom need to be able to be cured and reliably.

[OmnysValefor]

I agree Phil.

It isn't the same game as it was in 2008. In 08, mages didn't have such abundant refresh (since they're casting many of the same spells as they were back then), there wasn't Myrkr, and Occult Acumen, a third tier of aspir coupled with all this fc/haste gear, /rdm having convert and refresh). The trade-off back then was that your BLMs couldn't just chain nukes because their MP would not survive. If you brought only mages, you were gonna be ballading and waiting a lot. Melee had the strength of being steady and consistent damage.

Melee start empty and build up, mages start full and empty out. The problem in the balance now is that mages stay full.

[Ketaru]

There is nothing in this game that punishes mages anything like amnesia punishes melees (and tanks). This might be due to how hard it is to punish the BLMs while still letting the healer do their job.

I'd imagine outright magic immunity would do that. But that just ends up being no fun for anybody, since nothing would die in much of the current game design. Mute would do just the same, but then you'd end up relying on alternative healing sources, such as a DNC (which, admittedly, sounds like something we ought to see more of if they felt like balancing content so), or a SMN with a healing avatar already out, or BST using a rarab pet. But then these options all fall prey to the same disadvantages of melee damage dealing.

The other thing about how content is designed is that, when mages are disabled, it's often far worse for the party than when the melee are disabled. If a melee is under Amnesia or even dies, it's often treated as a minor inconvenience that is resolved with the passage of time. When a mage is disabled, it's a huge setback for which, if there is no backup, the battle might even be considered a loss. Same goes for tanks. Imagine if they were tasked with updating the jobs such that we find ourselves one day saying, "Oh crap, the MNK died! This is a disaster! How are we gonna recover from this?!"

[Olor]

Giving melee -DT innately helps "right now", but it's their mindset that has to change.

Some AOE-heavy bosses are fine. Some fights where mages are superior is fine, just like melee being superior in some fights is fine. What we have here is very lopsided.

Giving melee resistance to enfeebles doesn't do much. It still screws things up when they get hit with it. Mages would still be preferable.

yeah you're right on every front here.

[dmuller30]

There just needs to be some sort of balance. Every job should be useful there can be preference but it shouldn't be set in stone. You should be able to take any job with you and be completely fine.

[OmnysValefor]

I don't agree there. Any job works in any fight leads to bland encounters or bland jobs.

The balance just has to quit so crazily favoring mages, and TP feed needs... modernized somehow because anything more than what it takes to make a skillchain is just tp-feed these days.

[Ulth]

Well part of the tp reduction from hits involves the player's AGI versus the target's AGI which if the player has 75 more AGI it caps out at a 50% reduction which can be reduced by another 50% to 25% with subtle blow. However if the targets have an impossible amount of evasion it only makes sense there is an impossible amount of AGI as well. Then there is Subtle blow which despite being not an over powering stat is not that common. The new Abuscade set that mnk and nin can use has a whopping 0 subtle blow on the whole set.

[Genz]

So, after two updates without any job adjustment, still no mention of it in the last "Freshly Picked".

Can we have some opinion from the devs about this subject? What do they think about Geo? About Blu? What do they think about Sch being able to skillchain? Has the Bst nerf achieved anything else than some players quitting the game? <insert any other question> Or do they think everything is all right?

[Jin_Uzuki]

There just needs to be some sort of balance. Every job should be useful there can be preference but it shouldn't be set in stone. You should be able to take any job with you and be completely fine.

This will never happen. There was literally never a time in FFXI history in which "every job was useful".

The more complex your job system is, the harder is to have a proper ballance. And FFXI job system is very complex.

This said, there are some puzzling choices like the ability of SCH to self-SCH, but at this point what you can do. It's not like they can remove it.

[OmnysValefor]

Oh they very well could but I really don't want them to remove/nerf it (yet).

If you remove it now, some groups will just stop winning. The evasion on some of these NMs borders on absurdity, as does the aoe damage. Content needs addressed and much of it can be done in simple, broad strokes.

A lot of people (not you Jin) think that "If only they'd nerf [job], then people would want me more" and it's simply not the case. It's not that GEO is better than bard where they overlap, it's that GEO is miles ahead of bard where they overlap and offers some buffs that are indispensable.

I honestly wish that people would stop complaining that SCH/GEO/BLU is the problem, and start trying to think about the solution. Content is the problem.

So I'll say what I've been saying:

Address Evasion
Address AOEs
Address Amnesia
Address Spike Spells
Address TP feed
Address the terrible shaft that some jobs in JP enhancements and gifts
Revamp the MNK/SAM/NIN/PUP set from Ambuscade
Model all melee ambuscade sets after Sulevia's. Sulevia's was actually done right.

Chunks of regen on gear isn't a bad thing, but -DT is better: If you have 1800 HP and the boss drops an aga on you that does 2k in +50 regen, you're dead. If you're in -25% mdt, you still have 300 hp. (Just a very basic example, merited Shell V is more -mdt than that, and you should be aiming for a -50% mdt set).

Evasion? Evasion is pretty impractical for melee and the only tank job on the set doesn't tank anymore.

If they took away Immanence, as the game stands now, the strategy would be to bring more RNG or BLU or work with Atonement if possible.

If they obliterated BLU, that's not going to make the thf or sam any more survivable.

[dmuller30]

This will never happen. There was literally never a time in FFXI history in which "every job was useful".

The more complex your job system is, the harder is to have a proper ballance. And FFXI job system is very complex.

This said, there are some puzzling choices like the ability of SCH to self-SCH, but at this point what you can do. It's not like they can remove it.

I honestly don't know what your talking about. I remember being 75 and I could utilize any of my jobs just as others could. Did we want a MNK back in those days not really but it could still be used and wasn't the end all. My point is that back at lvl 75 days there were preferred jobs but there wasn't you have to be this job a DD job that wasn't BLU could still contribute regardless of what DD you were, support could support I think the only one that wasn't of huge use was SMN, don't get me started on that lol.

[OmnysValefor]

I honestly don't know what your talking about. I remember being 75 and I could utilize any of my jobs just as others could. Did we want a MNK back in those days not really but it could still be used and wasn't the end all. My point is that back at lvl 75 days there were preferred jobs but there wasn't you have to be this job a DD job that wasn't BLU could still contribute regardless of what DD you were, support could support I think the only one that wasn't of huge use was SMN, don't get me started on that lol.


any of my jobs

I think this is the misconception.

Noone brought pup or bst to anything serious. TH-ief was brought for one reason and drg was usually brought for one.

As for support, endgame revolved around support, but SMN, just like the jobs above was worse than other options, especially when sch came along.

[Obysuca]

Noone brought pup or bst to anything serious.


>_> Just have to point out, I came pup for everything back in pre-aby, when everything(sky, sea, salvage, einherjar) was still relevant. People brought pups, its just there weren't as many as there are now(less than 5 pups online at the same time, compared to 20+ these days) and that was back in a time when a good majority of the playerbase had no clue what pup did. I can't remember how many times I had to explain pup to a pt back in 06-09



I honestly don't know what your talking about. I remember being 75 and I could utilize any of my jobs just as others could. Did we want a MNK back in those days not really but it could still be used and wasn't the end all. My point is that back at lvl 75 days there were preferred jobs but there wasn't you have to be this job

^ This. Now we're all forced to the same 2-3 jobs if we want to get anything done and can't really swap to something else when we get bored. I miss those days, if I got bored of being one job, I could just swap to another and I'd still be invited to do things.

[OmnysValefor]

Oh really? When were you doing these. My first egls (07,08?) brought a bst and halftime pup/blm to endgame and suffered for the damage of the gimp warrior and gimp monk pet jobs.

These were both as well geared as they could be (esp the bst) but they weren't ideal.

You can bring any job to anything you can do with 5 or 17.

[Obysuca]

halftime pup/blm


suffered for the damage of the gimp monk pet jobs.


Theres your problem right there >_> no reason for them to have been /blm

[Pixela]

I honestly don't know what your talking about. I remember being 75 and I could utilize any of my jobs just as others could. Did we want a MNK back in those days not really but it could still be used and wasn't the end all. My point is that back at lvl 75 days there were preferred jobs but there wasn't you have to be this job a DD job that wasn't BLU could still contribute regardless of what DD you were, support could support I think the only one that wasn't of huge use was SMN, don't get me started on that lol.

This isn't true really, you're talking about on certain content. You were never taking monk to Nidhog, Tiamat etc

[OmnysValefor]

Theres your problem right there >_> no reason for them to have been /blm

Being lazy on phone. Half the time, they were pup, half blm.

[Jin_Uzuki]

Yes, I'm sure if you look hard enough, in 14 years of FFXI you'll find out someone 6-men party Kirin during 75 era using only a party of PUP.

Doesn't mean people actually wanted and asked someone to bring their PUP to Sky and Sea. Unless you were the HNMLS leader friend or PUP was the only job you ever leveled or they were really pitying you or something.

"Every job was viable ever" is flat out revisionist history.

No one wanted BST for a long time. BLM suffered once people discovered you could just TP burn everything. DRG was lol-drg for a while. RDM supplanted WHM for a long time. SMN always struggled.

And let not get me started how hard was reaching 75 for certain jobs (I'm sure everyone who leveled BLM during Toau era knows the joy of Colibri and Imps party)

[OmnysValefor]

Great example. The distaste for the classes was so thorough that they weren't even desired in exp.

Bst, pup, smn ("{main} {heal}?"), drg (before penta).

And let's not even talk about the exclusionary nature of merit parties. In toau, this extended to thf, pld, and kind of dnc--which could "tank".

[Urthdigger]

There's always been a distaste for certain classes, but it's mostly been something you could work around in the past. Most jobs had some way to contribute to SOME form of endgame, even if they weren't desired for others, and even if they weren't the best they were still usable.

Lastly, the number of jobs that nobody would invite to anything was far lower. There were like 3-4 jobs considered totally useless. Now? There are only 4-5 jobs considered even remotely viable for any content.

It's not that it didn't exist before. It's that it's far worse.

[dmuller30]

This isn't true really, you're talking about on certain content. You were never taking monk to Nidhog, Tiamat etc

Um yes I was my main back in the day was 75 MNK and that was just my job we utilized everyone's job in our HNMLS . So yes I did take to Nidhog, Tiamat etc. Obviously you were on a server that only wanted a set of jobs, the server I was on which was super populated at the time didn't need just "these jobs". Because in those days it wasn't like that. Right now its only "This" setup works, but I can remember using almost all the jobs in my HNMLS.

[dmuller30]

I think this is the misconception.

Noone brought pup or bst to anything serious. TH-ief was brought for one reason and drg was usually brought for one.

As for support, endgame revolved around support, but SMN, just like the jobs above was worse than other options, especially when sch came along.

Ok I agree with you on BST SMN and THF. But do you see how small that list is compared to the one we have now?

[OmnysValefor]

I like to think that I've been among the most vocal that content is currently designed around too few jobs.

I do not think this is because geo is too strong, I think it is because bard is too weak. There is a difference: the game has changed and bard has not.

I do not think BLU is too strong, I think other melee got the shaft on JP. I think BLU has the best shot at overcoming the absurd levels of evasion on some of this content while still surviving the boss.

Immanence is way too ideal in a game where melee require babysitting, can be completely shut down, and too easily killed.

Nerfs to any of these classes don't make content any easier for the jobs people don't want.

Fix content (amnesia, evasion, spike spells), fix some of the outdated JP enhancements/gifts. Fix bard, a class that needs overhauled.

A lot of melee seem fine til you put them against paralyzes so potent they might as well be petrification. SAM is reliable for self-skillchains on anything it can hit, as long as they can survive and aren't enfeebled to death (literally).

Fix the biggest problem with melee: there is little reason to bring more than what's needed to SC, scholars included.

[Secondplanet]

As for support, endgame revolved around support, but SMN, just like the jobs above was worse than other options, especially when sch came along.

Insert south parks "They took ur jerbs"

But in all seriousness when i first got smn to 75 long ago and dynamis gear was still pretty much the best gear you could get i got into a dyna/endgame LS that was just starting and was allowed to bring my smn in dyna until i got a "real" job sorted. But after 2-3 runs i was quickly shuffled to the lead party as i used my avatars to cycle buffs on the party (stone skin, haste, blink) and while other parties might wipe or have a member or 3 die the party i was in never suffered any deaths.
I do miss being able to play like that and when they finally give smn rage/ward i was able to fight along them also. But yeah when sch came out they took away what was special for us like how geo took away brds spot in parties. Hopefully the announcement for smn about our heal wards will just be the beginning and all our wards get an overhaul to take our spot back as the party buffer again since sch now has taken skill chaining/magic bursting away from SAM and BLM's.

[Ulth]

I think this is the misconception.

Noone brought pup or bst to anything serious. TH-ief was brought for one reason and drg was usually brought for one.

As for support, endgame revolved around support, but SMN, just like the jobs above was worse than other options, especially when sch came along.

That one reason isn't even a reason to bring thf anymore. Not only does hardly any end game content actually drop things, but literally every job can get TH 4 when TH 3 is the last one that does a damn thing. Which is why it's so infuriating that our special gifts were TH 13 and 14. They know TH stopped mattering 10 levels ago but here are 2 new tiers that you can never get to, and that don't do a thing. I would have been happier if they were just left blank.

People aren't even using thf for farming anymore. All I ever see doing salvage are blus. Hate control is a non issue, so thf pretty much brings nothing special to the table. And don't get me wrong, I hated just getting invited to events for TH, but it was better than nothing.

[Kensagaku]

That one reason isn't even a reason to bring thf anymore. Not only does hardly any end game content actually drop things, but literally every job can get TH 4 when TH 3 is the last one that does a damn thing. Which is why it's so infuriating that our special gifts were TH 13 and 14. They know TH stopped mattering 10 levels ago but here are 2 new tiers that you can never get to, and that don't do a thing. I would have been happier if they were just left blank.

People aren't even using thf for farming anymore. All I ever see doing salvage are blus. Hate control is a non issue, so thf pretty much brings nothing special to the table. And don't get me wrong, I hated just getting invited to events for TH, but it was better than nothing.

Honestly, I'd say it's even worse now, simply because endgame content is guaranteed to drop at least one item. Because of this, TH isn't necessary except for the rare chance of a second item. Combined with randomly getting equipment in your spoils list (more so during the campaign but possible outside), THF really serves no purpose except as a placebo these days. It's not that a THF can't be a good DD, but compared to the amount of babysitting needed for any melee character, it's just not worthwhile.

As Omnys says, the first things we need to consider are:

*Mob evasion or player accuracy; right now, dual-wielders have an advantage in getting more accuracy, since they have a second weapon to stack accuracy AND they are on light armor most of the time, which is also loaded down with it. Note I'm speaking of native dual-wielders, so no throwing BST at me on this. That's its own kettle of fish. Maybe offer 2h a better amount of accuracy from things like DEX or skill, enough to get them up to a more modest level. And of course, tone back mob evasion.

*The potency and range of debuffs; this can actually go both ways, decreasing or increasing. Why increasing? If mages are at risk of debuffs (such as from Strophadia's moves, which push them to the very edge of their casting range and often catches them), then it forces setups to go with a bit more support and become adjusted to dealing with the need to react to these debuffs. By doing so, it puts melee and mages on a more even playing field when it comes to debuffs and, though it requires a bit more babysitting for the whole party, makes it more viable for melee to come along. These days, it's not that healers aren't viably able to babysit melee, it's that it's simply inefficient to do so as opposed to focusing on the tank while mages nuke from a distance. If mages are at the same risk as melee, then strategies are forced to shift and adjust to accommodate proper support, enabling setups where there is more opportunity for melee to join in.

*Reduction of AoE Frequency or Effect; AoEs aren't bad, and they are meant to provide a threat to prevent a simple tank-and-spank setup where only the PLD/RUN/PUP Auto takes hits while everything wails on the mob free of risk. When used correctly, they are a concern, but not a game-ender. Most days, EVERYTHING is an AoE. Everything wipes shadows, everything hits for high damage combined with multiple status ailments, etc. Even many NMs these days have AoE basic attacks. When we get to this point, we're getting out of hand, and it makes it completely non-viable to use anything that's not at a range. So my proposal would be one that's been mentioned previously: Tune down the damage of those hit by AoEs that aren't the current hate target. Do something like a 30% reduction at most, so that AoEs still offer potent damage potential, but at the same time aren't a party one-shot. Perhaps even lower for casual auto-attack AoEs, because the mob shouldn't be knocking off most of our HP every few swings. Additionally, perhaps add a decrease in magic accuracy for debuff TP moves (not spells) that affect targets other than the current tank; while this won't guarantee a 100% avoidance, it makes it far easier if we're not riddled with 5+ debuffs every few seconds. This will again offer some viability for melee.

Amnesia (or: ugh, I can't do anythinggggg); Amnesia, as stated, is one of the worst threats in the game, comparable to a mute effect on the mages. But the problem is that mute is nearly nonexistent and non-viable because it locks out your healers instead of just your nukers, leading to a complete party catastrophe, while amnesia is so commonplace that it's easy to see why most melee are hanging up their weapons. If you're constantly stuck in auto-attack, unable to use your JA or WS, you're literally just sitting there swinging and waiting with minimal contribution. Just like Silence as Silena, I think it's time for Amnesia to have its own spell. If it balances it a bit more, make it something like Cursna, where it's not a 100%, but do make it something of a higher proc rate than non-gear Cursna. That's just terrible. And do the same with Silena/Echo Drops for Mute so that such an ailment becomes viable too, give it a chance to remove, but not a 100% due to its potency. This will create a reasonable risk that at the same time can be dealt with with proper preparation.

Edit: Somehow I missed my most important note in all of that.

*Mob HP Scaling; I think this needs to be tuned down if a lot of these things ever get implemented. If we need support to back our melee, then we need to not be punished for it. Our LS recently did Maju with an alliance of 16, and boy were we sad; while we had no issues surviving with a mage setup, between the cumulative magic resistance from too many people nuking together, the fact that some of them weren't making up for the extra HP their presence gave, and the actual scaling itself, we never got it below 40% or so. We've actually had discussions about going in smaller groups and then cycling in people here and there to get them their clears as opposed to doing an event as a linkshell. If it gets to the point that you have to exclude to get a minimal number of people, it's a good sign that HP scaling has gone too far.

[Olor]

I love the productive discussion being had here. I hope the devs pay attention to these comments.

[Ulth]

Dual wield jobs really don't benefit accuracy once you get to the point of having R/M/E/A weapons since they only give skill instead of accuracy, so each of your weapons only apply to that hand. It just seems like that because the two dual wield jobs people think of are dnc and blu. Dnc has accuracy bonus trait and gets more accuracy from gifts than other jobs, only tied with drg. And blu can set Accuracy bonus VI with spells. Thf and nin don't have anything like that. When they added distract they kind of nerfed thf hard. Feint now conflicts with a common spell, and the gravity effect from rudra's is pointless. Nin has it even worst since their extra hit dakken needs them to have huge amounts of ranged accuracy as well to make full use of their abilities.

[dmuller30]

I love the productive discussion being had here. I hope the devs pay attention to these comments.

I hope so too because these issues are from the players who have been playing for years so they know what is wrong with the jobs. I really hope they take these players feedback to heart.

[OmnysValefor]

[...]

everything wipes shadows

Yeah, it used to be that /nin was generally the tradeoff people made when personal survivability was a factor. Nin offers nothing to most jobs but survivability (except bst and war, which gain dual wield).


everything hits for high damage combined with multiple status ailments, etc. Even many NMs these days have AoE basic attacks.

Yeah, there's a lot of bosses (some of them very trival bosses) where I don't want the THF behind me even to TA. He eats an auto-attack cleave and he's dead or near it.


Amnesia (or: ugh, I can't do anythinggggg); Amnesia, as stated, is one of the worst threats in the game, comparable to a mute effect on the mages. But the problem is that mute is nearly nonexistent and non-viable because it locks out your healers instead of just your nukers, leading to a complete party catastrophe, while amnesia is so commonplace that it's easy to see why most melee are hanging up their weapons. If you're constantly stuck in auto-attack, unable to use your JA or WS, you're literally just sitting there swinging and waiting with minimal contribution.

At that point, your "contribution" is worse than the cost. You're feeding the boss TP, you're costing the healer MP. You're creating more enmity for the healer which can be a factor in prolonged fights.

The thing is, I can think of a few Amnesia-level debuffs that could exist (think nyzul lockout-floors), but I don't want to see mages going through the same crap. Hey, once in a while it's a fine mechanic but it's used too much. Way too much.


Just like Silence as Silena, I think it's time for Amnesia to have its own spell. If it balances it a bit more, make it something like Cursna, where it's not a 100%, but do make it something of a higher proc rate than non-gear Cursna.

I really don't want to see "Amnesna" behave like cursna, but if it did, I'd like it to provide protection for a duration based on healing magic skill. "JoeMage casts Amnesna on Kensagaku. Kensagaku is immune to Amnesia for 30s.".


If it gets to the point that you have to exclude to get a minimal number of people, it's a good sign that HP scaling has gone too far.

I've said before that I think HP scaling stops people from being carried, so I want it to stick around. This is another case where the problem is in the game mechanics, as you point out in your untruncated post:

More than the people necessary to create a skillchain, scholars included, are wasted slots, but here's something that people don't usually know: NMs gain a short buff to reduce magic damage taken after being nuked. While cumulative, the buff wears quickly. This means that while the gains from additional nukers is not as punitive as additional melee, it still exists (source (http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/675/detail.html)). It's also interesting to read threads from that era, rather than relying on people's memory. (https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/38977-New-Notorious-Monsters-and-Battlefields!(07-19-2006))

Perhaps addressing some of the problems with content and combat design will fix this.

I'm going to shamelessly plug a post I made, but I believe melee need a way to ws without interfering with or contributing to skillchains (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/50537-A-command-to-shut-off-the-skillchain-properties-of-weaponskills.).

Until something is done about this, too many melee is just a really big problem.

[dmuller30]

I don't think survivablility will be fixed, it seems like SE has more important things going on like upgrading elemental siphon don't even get me started on that one lol. Think that was the last straw for me think I will be retiring SMN. I honestly think although someone said on here earlier it would be a good idea to up resistance on melee jobs against status ailments maybe an implemented trait or give them more resistance on gear. I mean just playing the game one time through on a job would let them know what the problems are, and if they are already then they should be well aware of what updates are needed, but because none of the major problems with balancing have been addressed it seems like none of the devs/programmers play them game at all and just provide us with random un-needed updates.

[Gankfest]

THF/NIN is still the best job... -_-

[Dale]

I believe this thread misses the real issue here. Because I have seen countless MMORPGs ruined by this notion of job balance.

Jobs should not be balanced. They need to have individual strengths that set them apart from other jobs. That's what makes the game play interesting to begin with. Otherwise in theory the developers should just copy and paste the same jobs for everyone to play - as that would be perfectly balanced yet would it be fun? I seriously doubt it.

Back in the early days many jobs on this game simply sucked. I hate to be so blunt - but that is the truth. They were downright miserable to play. SE has gone a long way to improving their jobs and making them more effective and enjoyable to play. So I find this idea that things were so much better in the old days floating around on this thread to be misleading. None of the jobs I play were better in the old days. That is for sure. In fact, they were a gazillion times worst.

I agree all jobs should be useful in all content. I do not agree that all jobs should be equally useful in all content.

I am not saying there aren't some legitimate complaints here. There is. But they are often exaggerated by job stereotypes and LS leaders who are stuck in their own ways. So instead of finding ways to make jobs more balanced I believe the correct way to address this issue is to ask how can we make certain jobs more useful in certain kinds of content.

[Dale]

Until something is done about this, too many melee is just a really big problem.

I agree with you that having a party filled with melee is not ideal.

But that is probably as intended - as there has to be some incentive to create a balanced party else support jobs would be left out of the mix.

[OmnysValefor]

I agree with you that having a party filled with melee is not ideal.

But that is probably as intended - as there has to be some incentive to create a balanced party else support jobs would be left out of the mix.

A balanced party like PLD, WHM, GEO, SCH, SCH or BLM, BLM?

The pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Two to three (edit: said one to two) melee, including the tank can SC faster than 2 SCH but the baggage melee bring far outweighs this benefit.

And some melee can solo SC pretty darn fast if they can wear offense-oriented gear and have proper support.

That's the other thing mages don't really need. They don't terribly need Geo-Haste.

[xiozen]

So instead of finding ways to make jobs more balanced I believe the correct way to address this issue is to ask how can we make certain jobs more useful in certain kinds of content.

Well I believe you are saying the same thing here--regarding balance vs making jobs more useful in certain kinds of content... although i would caution "certain kinds of content" seems to lean towards job exclusivity in that there could be made the argument that, depending on the job, it may not be useful because of the type of content being introduced/attempted by the person playing the job.

I think the OP position of job balancing seems to stem from avoiding this type of distinction, so that regardless of the job, all jobs can enjoy all content equally... I don't think this should be viewed as an unrealistic objective.

[Sicycre]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to inform you that adjustments will be made to two-handed weapons soon!

I appreciate the feedback you guys are giving and encourage you to keep giving us your thoughts.

[OmnysValefor]

I sincerely hope that that you took more from this thread than "2h need buffs", which they do.

Melee survivability and babysitting required is still a huge huge concern, regardless of weapon wielded and job played.

[Eradius]

Its a step in the right direction I guess.

[detlef]

/cough BRD

But also thanks for reassessing 2-handers.

[Dale]

A balanced party like PLD, WHM, GEO, SCH, SCH or BLM, BLM?

The pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Two to three (edit: said one to two) melee, including the tank can SC faster than 2 SCH but the baggage melee bring far outweighs this benefit.

And some melee can solo SC pretty darn fast if they can wear offense-oriented gear and have proper support.

That's the other thing mages don't really need. They don't terribly need Geo-Haste.

I was mostly commenting on your point that all you need is enough melee (or DPS generally) to create skill chains. Adding any more than that can start to cause more problems than it alleviates.

That's probably true. But I believe that's as intended because it creates an inventive for support jobs. If all anyone has to do is load up on DPS jobs to kill quicker, then that is what they would likely do. I've seen that tragic scenario play out on multiple MMORPGs, where support jobs slowly go extinct in favor of DPS jobs. And I would hate to see that happen on this game. It's one of the few MMORPGs on the market today that still have a vibrant support role available for players.

As to your Mage > Melee argument, I am sure that is true in many cases. But so long as a melee can get the job done I don't really have a problem with it.

Survivability is definitely an issue. But it seems SE is finally starting to realize this with their recent ambuscade offerings. It only took them over a decade to start to address it.

[Dale]

Well I believe you are saying the same thing here--regarding balance vs making jobs more useful in certain kinds of content... although i would caution "certain kinds of content" seems to lean towards job exclusivity in that there could be made the argument that, depending on the job, it may not be useful because of the type of content being introduced/attempted by the person playing the job.

I think the OP position of job balancing seems to stem from avoiding this type of distinction, so that regardless of the job, all jobs can enjoy all content equally... I don't think this should be viewed as an unrealistic objective.

I summed up my position this way:

I agree all jobs should be useful in all content. I do not agree that all jobs should be equally useful in all content.

I'm with you on most of your comments. Where you lose me is when you suggest that regardless of the job, all jobs should be able to enjoy all content equally. Because I like that certain jobs excel in different content encounters.

[Olor]

The problem is right now that melee jobs don't excel more in *any* content. I can't think of a single event where a DRG or a WAR or a DRK is desirable over other options. I am fine with each job not being *equally* good in all content but the content design needs to be varied enough that all jobs get an opportunity to shine.

[Ulth]

/cough BRD

But also thanks for reassessing 2-handers.

Maybe they could add a song that removes Amnesia since they don't want to give whm Amnesina. It kind of makes sense even since songs usually can trigger memories in people anyway. Buffs won't even be that hard to adjust, they know how the formula for how scaling songs with combined skill works, just up the cap from where it is now, (some where in the 500's, who cares you cap it with just rank c in singing and string) and make it 900 like geo. Then just a little more to help with keeping melee alive, finally give brd massacre elegy to really slow down the casting time of mobs, make Pining Nocturne stack with addle, and add some sort of debuff effect to Foe Requiem like dia and bio have, because as it is now 8 damage a tick for Foe Requiem 7 is nothing.

[OmnysValefor]

I was mostly commenting on your point that all you need is enough melee (or DPS generally) to create skill chains. Adding any more than that can start to cause more problems than it alleviates.

That's probably true. But I believe that's as intended because it creates an inventive for support jobs. If all anyone has to do is load up on DPS jobs to kill quicker, then that is what they would likely do. I've seen that tragic scenario play out on multiple MMORPGs, where support jobs slowly go extinct in favor of DPS jobs. And I would hate to see that happen on this game. It's one of the few MMORPGs on the market today that still have a vibrant support role available for players.

As to your Mage > Melee argument, I am sure that is true in many cases. But so long as a melee can get the job done I don't really have a problem with it.

Survivability is definitely an issue. But it seems SE is finally starting to realize this with their recent ambuscade offerings. It only took them over a decade to start to address it.

You're mixing and matching support (brd, cor, rdm, geo--geo mostly; and I'm excluding healers because they're necessary) with mage DD. You'll have a far-easier time killing anything in this game with mages than with melee.

I don't remember Support ever going extinct in this game. More haste, more atk/-def on NM targets is always a good thing. Yeah, you can so-far outgear something that you "attack-cap" but in those cases you're usually fighting something that strategy isn't needed, because you outgear it so far.

The design of support in this game is that the supporting player does more for the other members of the party than another melee/nuking job would and I think XI has usually done well at making that happen, especially on content where accuracy is an issue.

You just don't see GEOs using precision/torpor (acc+/eva-) because you don't invite melee.

[OmnysValefor]

Maybe they could add a song that removes Amnesia since they don't want to give whm Amnesina. It kind of makes sense even since songs usually can trigger memories in people anyway. Buffs won't even be that hard to adjust, they know how the formula for how scaling songs with combined skill works, just up the cap from where it is now, (some where in the 500's, who cares you cap it with just rank c in singing and string) and make it 900 like geo. Then just a little more to help with keeping melee alive, finally give brd massacre elegy to really slow down the casting time of mobs, make Pining Nocturne stack with addle, and add some sort of debuff effect to Foe Requiem like dia and bio have, because as it is now 8 damage a tick for Foe Requiem 7 is nothing.

You know what would be neat? And I'm not saying this would fix bard, but it would be neat. I'm also not saying bard doesn't need something along the lines of vex/attune or at least fend (mdb+)

A song that reduces the duration of all debuffs. Unlike Vex/Attune, which increases your magic evasion and greatly reduces your chance of taking full damage/getting hit with an enfeeble, this song would guaranteed reduce the duration of enfeebles.

A song that reduces the potency of debuffs could also be cool but then SE would just make debuffs more potent so that the song didn't trivialize fights--even though vex/attune does just that.

[Ulth]

What like a song that guarantees a partial resist?

[OmnysValefor]

Yeah, absolutely guarantees a partial resist. It should stack with any other resistance that would have occurred without the BRD.

Say an NM's unresisted sleep lasts 2 minutes, but my PLD partially resisted and only sleeping for 1:30, but the bard has this song on me which reduces duration by half (I feel like half would be a good cap) and so I'm alseep for 45 seconds.

[Shyles]

This was a a new thread I was planning to post today, but I saw this thread was already active. Here are my thoughts on certain issues regarding job balance - specifically related to melee vs magic dd - that I wanted to mention. The TLDR version is that I think that particularly enmity needs to be adjusted again, as well as better innate survivability for front line jobs.

With the wealth of powerful armor and the recent RME III update, melee jobs are becoming very strong but we are still largely undesired for serious end-game encounters. The current state of the game still favors safer ranged jobs for damage, particularly from scholars and black mages who are currently dominating the DD role in end game events. The major problems that I see causing this is enmity and survivability.

Damage Output vs Enmity

The problem that I am running into frequently is pulling hate from the tank. Even extremely well geared and experienced tanks are having difficulty holding hate from my Dancer. Melee jobs are now able to get enough Haste, multi-hit, Store TP to have a "hundred fist-like" attack speed, while also getting enough raw stats and weapon skill damage to regularly skillchain for 50k-99k damage. As a result, we're hate magnets just like we were at the beginning of SoA. Meanwhile the Mage-only parties are doing the same damage with virtually no risk of pulling hate and can also stay out of range of the heavy damage rather than swapping out of their DD gear to mitigate it. So it's easy to understand why they are favored in parties.

In terms of damage output, I would agree that Mages and Melee jobs are very close when properly geared. However, Hate management is extremely imbalanced between the two schools. If I start self-skillchaining, or closing big skillchains with my dancer, there is a good chance I will pull hate. Meanwhile the Black mage bursting 80K+ is untouched.. To avoid pulling hate, I literally have to hold back, thus lowering my damage output. How is that fair to melee jobs?

Damage risk is FAR higher to Melees than to Mages

As far as survivability, getting hit occasionally comes with being a melee job, and we all understand that.. But even at the highest difficulties, it doesn't make sense that a melee in full 119 gear could take 100% or more of their HP in damage from a nearly instant radial AoE move. The healer should at least be given a chance to heal us. It doesn't seem right to me that a melee job would have to sacrifice their damage output by swapping into a tank-like –DT set just to withstand the heavy damage. That is a necessity that isn't really present for other job roles. Also ranged jobs do not have to deal with spike damage, and there are very few boss mechanics that provide the same kind of threat to ranged DD. So while I agree that melee jobs should be exposed to more damage than ranged jobs, I think the survivability gap shouldn't be as drastic as it is now, and that healers should have a larger role in the party.

[Pixela]

Nobody wants to take melee because if you take a pld a scholar and some black mages you can skip the healer completely and just use a trust.

Quite why they allowed scholar to skillchain is beyond me, that was melee jobs claim to fame. I know they are trying to make all jobs useful but the scholar thing just made all melee useless.


Even extremely well geared and experienced tanks are having difficulty holding hate from my Dancer.
Fandancer!

[Voidstorm]

Several minor adjustments could fix many issues.
1 issue: Enemies hit melee with powerful WSs on a regular basis for a lot of damage.
_A: Give enemies tactical parry/block and remove the current 'any action on target' = TP mechanic.
_B: Make 'Damage Taken -%' just a part of 119 equipment across the board. 15~25% on a 5 piece armor set depending on it's real ilvl.

~Minor reduction in the required # of armor sets many jobs currently require.
~Physical damage dealers worry less about 'feeding TP' unless they stand in the front.
~Support and healers at low levels can more easily fight right along side the other characters~trusts.


2 issue: several support jobs are needed to make a group capable of hitting the target, and are required for both the mages and the physical attackers.
_A: Adjust the Magic Burst modifier.
___a: Currently, that step in the magic damage equation is apparently 1+0.05*(X+11) Where X is the # of times skillchain has been closed without a break.
___b: A change to 1+0.1*(X+3) would make scholar skillchains either very infrequent or much weaker than what DD can chain together.
_B: Lower the minimum delay between weaponskills to skillchain and cap the maximum delay to continue a skillchain at a higher number of seconds.
___a: The minimum delay as players know it is 3seconds. The maximum delay starts at 10seconds @ first close and goes down 1second for every close after, until it is also 3seconds making further chain impossible.
___b: Reduce the minimum delay to 1second, and raise the cap at how low the maximum delay between weaponskills, so it cannot fall below 4seconds.
_C: Make Magic Burst decrease magic resistance much further.
___a: If it isn't in place, make a mechanic that increases the reduction of magic evasion on the target based on the number of weaponskills.
_D: Increase the effective magic accuracy of enfeebling magics so mage support is not required for a Red Mage to even be considered for a support role.
___a: The same can be said for Bard enfeebling songs.

~Those changes should allow less support used to boost mage damage/accuracy and more focus to be put on the people creating skillchains, both offensively and defensively.
~More frequent weaponskills that still skillchain means more DD can participate in skillchain before their collective output starts running into a wall.


I could continue, but this post is already plenty long already...

[Urthdigger]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to inform you that adjustments will be made to two-handed weapons soon!

I appreciate the feedback you guys are giving and encourage you to keep giving us your thoughts.

So... will this include h2h?

[Psion]

Some issues i've noticed on pup (long post warning):

Weaponskills- Currently, hand-to-hand weaponskills are pretty lackluster. When my sparks of eminence geared blu can pull off a 5000-6000+ chant du cygne and my i119 pup does stringing pummel for only 2500-3000ish on the same monsters, and hits for less per fist than my blu does on it's sword swings, something feels off. Yes, I realize my automaton can also weaponskill, and also does about 3000 damage. the problem is however, this is an 119 pup with far better gear than my blu. A i119 geared blu on the other hand, can easily pull off 10-15k+ Chant du cygne or higher, while better gear for pup has a far smaller gain, and at the cost of either gearing for the master, or losing master damage and accuracy in exchange for strengthening our automaton.

Our automatons weaponskills are also rather lackluster these days. And with the non-viability of hybrid sets for master and automaton for anything challenging, we essentially lose half our damage dealing potential, because either the master is going to be out of range, being in pet augmenting gear (because the hybrid sets do not provide enough accuracy even with shiromochi for both the master and pet to hit on higher end content), or the automaton is going to have floored accuracy and be essentially useless. Do not get me wrong, if we can't have hybrid sets, that's fine... but make our weaponskills and our automatons both have a much higher potential, increasing more dramatically with stat boosts like strength, attack, critical hit rate, etc. Monk would also benefit from this change, as they are in an even sorrier state than pup is.

Speaking of automatons, I have a suggestion for four new attachments, with tentative names:

Concentrater- enhances the potency of "ability" type attachments. (suggested elemental slot- light or earth) The idea behind this one is to "strengthen" the abilities of our automatons. abs-attribute would gain more magic accuracy and absorb more. flashbulb and strobes I and II would generate more emnity. (please be generous with this, as those good CdC spamming blus are quite literally impossible to hold hate against, even with dual strobes, opening with a triple fire provoke, and maintaining dual fire, one light for flashbulb, dual strobes, and optic fiber. Despite all this, my automaton starts loses hate within half a minute to a minute and it's a losing battle from there, and this is on the harder stuff like escha- Ru'ann NMs.) economizer would restore more mp, disruptor would gain more magic accuracy and perhaps dispel multiple buffs, shock absorber would absorb more hp, and so on. If something would be too powerful with just a straight boost, that attachment could always be "augmented" in a different way than just increased potency.

Diffuser- Changes "ability" type attachments and spells to an area of effect. (suggested slot- light or water) Either this one would have a full effect just by being equipped, or increasing area of effect radius with more maneuvers. if it has a full effect by simply being equipped, i'd recommend a lesser used element than light or water, such as dark or wind. This would make things like strobe and flashbulb work on the target the automaton is deployed on and any nearby targets as well (i'd recommend a generous AoE range for this), while spells like thunder V would hit all nearby foes, and spells like cure VI would cure the ally the automaton targets and anyone in the AoE range of them. If this requires spells to cost more MP to cast for balancing reasons, this is fine. This would be a boon for automaton tanking, nuking, and healing. One of pup tanks biggest weaknesses is we simply cannot hold hate against multiple mobs, so any boss with adds, or any fight that starts off with multiple mobs renders a pup tank useless. One of pup healer's biggest weaknesses is we have no AoE heals, and this attachment would make pup healer viable for content that's not too serious. We'd still be limited to our spell recasts, unlike a real whm, so I doubt pup as healer would replace whm as superior, but with the ability to AoE heals and status heals, it would serve in a lot of content as a back up healer, or one that heals non tank parties in an alliance. And giving our blm automaton access to AoE lets pup not be completely useless in content like vagary where AoE reigns supreme.

Crystal Resonator- Enhances magic damage (suggested element- ice or water or light) This attachment would increase the base damage of spells, just like magic damage + on gear and weapons does. Right now our automatons simply cannot compete with a blm in nukes. back in the old 75 cap days the balance was near perfect, with pups providing ridiculously overpowered spells and unlimited mp, with low hate issues...but at a much slower recast than blms. In the end, the two would parse practically equal on a tough fight, which made pup as desired as blm for content like proto-ultima. Now however, we have blms spamming magic bursts for 99,999 damage, casting stone I for damage in the thousands, and yet our automaton is bound to the long nuke recast, and casts blizzard V (with ice maker, loudspeaker IV, loudspeaker II, mana channeler, and optic fiber in my case) for 8756 damage to an unwilling marid. now, this isn't bad, it's quite better than it used to be... but it comes nowhere near the potential of a real blm. Keep in mind, this is with PURE damage boosting attachments. In a real fight, even with full magic accuracy attachments and triple ice, i'm not sure my automaton could land a nuke with more than 5% accuracy, even with a geomancer and pet rolls helping, even on a magic burst that my automaton fails at doing because our magic burst attachments seem to be terrible at doing their job. A black mage, on the other hand, can do over 13k to the same mob with the same spell, and they do not suffer the magic accuracy issues our automatons do. Right now, there is literally no use for our black mage puppet, which this attachment would hopefully rectify, along with:

Crystal Foci- Changes automaton spellcasting behavior (suggested element wind, dark, or fire) A passive attachment that alters automaton spellcasting. for black mage automaton, this would make it focus almost entirely on nuking, constantly casting tier I or II spells (depending on how tough the monster is... tier II spells for more magic accuracy on higher end monsters), and using it's highest tier nukes on skillchains to magic burst. Perhaps also enhancing tier V spells magic casting speed greatly, so that they can actually land a magic burst. (or you could add this as an effect to amplifiers.)
For whm bot, this would have it stick mostly to healing and status cures, constantly casting low tier cure I and II/status cures and regens on non tanks, with the normal cure recast left in place for it's highest tier cure. For red mage automaton, this would cause it to focus mostly on maintaining enfeebling magic, with the occasional cure or nuke. This would give an added purpose to the three mage automatons, and also let them combine with the crystal resonator and diffuser for different purposes. want to take on a tough boss? use the ice maker with crystal resonator, or crystal foci instead of ice maker if the boss has fairly low magic evasion. want to fight in vagary against the hordes of monsters? crystal foci and crystal resonator and diffuser to constantly fling low level but fairly potent AoE spells and assist the black mages. Monster has a lot of powerful AoE spells? diffuser and whm head to soften the blows. Monster spams enfeebling effects? crystal focii and diffuser to keep the party clean and take some pressure off the poor white mage.


As far as specific automatons go-

Harlequin- Oh dear. what is there to say...this frame is utterly useless, EXCEPT for magic heavy monsters, where it's only purpose is to provide ::some:: damage reduction and hp combined with white mage head for shellra V for more magic protection. That is entirely it. It's weaponskills are terrible. magic mortar does 300 damage. 300. damage. not 3,000, not 30,000... 300. and when you have your typical tanking maneuvers up of light fire, and maybe earth or water, this is the only weaponskill you're going to get unless you have inhibitors equipped. Harlequin and mage frames NEED a better weaponskill. at the very least, harlequin does. perhaps this frame could be changed to have still have less damage taken than valoredge, but also have an innate magic damage taken boost as well, making it the official frame of choice for tanking magic heavy mobs?

valoredge-This one is our current frame of choice. it has an A+ melee combat skill, giving it the best shot of hitting tougher monsters in endgame content, it's got the best survivability, and bone crusher does pretty decent damage. all in all, it's fairly solid, especially as a tank... but it does have some flaws. The first, being that our automaton is incredibly susceptible to doom, and any monster that spams hate reset moves makes it useless. a paladin can simply spam flash, a rune fencer can use runes to quickly reestablish hate, but we're bound to our 30 second strobe and 1 minute flashbulb, and we can't practically get our automaton to hold a provoke or flash in reserve. (partly because we need them to hold hate in the first place, partly because we need those maneuvers up full time for them to survive!) One suggestion is to have hate reset moves only have a lesser effect on an automaton than a player- a full hate reset would only remove some of the automatons emnity instead of all of it, allowing for a bit of leniency for a non player tank. Secondly, our automaton is laughably weak to doom. unlike a player, we cannot cursna an automaton, our repair ability won't remove it even with puppetry babouches enhancing it, and maintenance also won't touch it. Couple this with our automatons horrendous magic evasion (even with dual resistors) and the instant any NM uses doom on the automaton, its a dead tank walking. there is no second chance, there is no saving grace, it's DEAD. Give valoredge and harlequin frames a break- make them able to receive status cures from players, even if not actual heals. that or make them resist doom, or at the least make maintenence and repair remove doom 100% of the time. (though with their long recast timers, this isn't an ideal solution when the party depends on you for tanking.) Finally, valoredge could use a bit of a weaponskill damage boost. That or make valoredge's weaponskills have an added enmity boost to it, helping solidify its position as a tank frame.

Stormwaker- This one's doing fairly well. it's useful for low end content where you want phalanx, stoneskin, and some heals, but don't need a lot of healing power. Perhaps a magic accuracy boost to help land enfeebles.

Spiritreaver- This one's failing utterly. It's magic accuracy is terrible, it's magical damage is amazing...by 2010 standards. Nowadays, it's pretty lackluster. I'm pretty sure an actual red mage can nuke harder, never mind a black mage magic bursting death for 99,999 damage. I kind of feel like it should have gotten tier VI spells as a job point gift, but barring that... it really needs a LOT more magic damage and accuracy. Don't forget, it's bound by a very long recast on it's nukes, whereas an actual black mage can happily cast nonstop as long as it's MP and hate are fine. Seriously, don't go conservative on boosting this one. Don't even go wild on boosting this one. Boost this thing as wildy as you dare, then quintuple that boost, and it might finally be on par with black mage again.

Soulsoother- This one's main weakness is the very long recast on heals and status heals. See the suggested attachments above, which are really what this frame could use.

Sharpshot- Poor neglected sharpshot. it used to be the king of physical damage, but now, valoredge does it better. Unlike poor sharpshot, valoredge has an A+ skill on all it's hits, not like sharpshot and it's (very long recast) ranged shots. Granted, triple wind or two wind and a light (combined with drum magazine) helps this a lot, but it's still going to have lower accuracy on it's melee swings, it takes hits like a piece of wet tissue, and it's weaponskills don't do any more than valoredge. You can fix the damage taken issue by putting it out of melee range, but then it does less damage than valoredge by far, generates TP far slower, and it's weaponskills still hit no harder. Sharpshot needs a survivability boost, a major attack boost, and a serious weaponskill power boost.

I apologize for the rather long post, but this is just my cumulative observations of where pup stands and where it feels lackluster. Even though we occasionally get invited to parties to tank, even this niche use is unknown by far too many players, simply because there are so many NMs we cannot tank due to hate reset, doom, or crowd control issues. (or an amnesia aura, which renders our automaton incapable of using provoke or flashbulb, and therefore, incapable of holding hate.) it's an amazing tank on mobs it can work on, but unlike a rune fencer or paladin, there's no "suboptimal" NMs to tank. either a pup tank works beautifully, or it fails so utterly that everyone is dead within the first 30 seconds. With other tanks you can sort of make it work even if a pld or run would suit a particular NM better. And we are never invited for the other roles we are capable of playing, simply because our other roles are far far inferior in potential to a blue mage.

I realize some people will say "but Psion, pup is a hybrid job! it's supposed to be a jack of all trades, master of none!" To which i'd like to point out BLU is also a hybrid job, and yet it's highly desired because it's a master of all, but a master in it's own unique ways. instead of subverting other jobs, it's able to work alongside and augment them with it's own unique buffs and spells. PUP used to have more versatility, being able to fill in when the party needed more magical damage, another physical fighter, or a back up healer. Now it's only as useful as a superior tank (on some monsters) or an inferior DD, healer, or nuker. A simple jack of all trades, invited by none.

[Jile]

Psion, so many good points, hoping SE read's what you said.

[Dale]

The problem is right now that melee jobs don't excel more in *any* content. I can't think of a single event where a DRG or a WAR or a DRK is desirable over other options. I am fine with each job not being *equally* good in all content but the content design needs to be varied enough that all jobs get an opportunity to shine.

So you are saying there are no fights on this game where magic damage is less effective than melee damage is?

I find that hard to believe Olor.

[Dale]

Nobody wants to take melee because if you take a pld a scholar and some black mages you can skip the healer completely and just use a trust.

Quite why they allowed scholar to skillchain is beyond me, that was melee jobs claim to fame. I know they are trying to make all jobs useful but the scholar thing just made all melee useless.


Fandancer!

I think you're over-stating it.

Just because there is another job that might be better at something that doesn't make melee useless.

When I go out to kill NMs I certainly prefer to have a dragoon come along with me than to be solo. He's not useless, helps me kill faster (especially if we can get a good SC going) and can even help heal.

I rarely (if ever) play with scholars so I can't really comment directly on how good they are. But I do play with my fair share of melee jobs. And I can attest that a well-played well-geared melee is not useless. They can be very useful.

[Ulth]

So you are saying there are no fights on this game where magic damage is less effective than melee damage is?

I find that hard to believe Olor.

There is Glazemane, but that is more like the exception that proves the rule.

[Olor]

So you are saying there are no fights on this game where magic damage is less effective than melee damage is?

I find that hard to believe Olor.

I'm saying that melee don't excel in current events generally. While there may be one or two fights they are good in the VAST majority of events favour the same small handful of jobs: PLD BLU SCH WHM GEO BLM... maybe COR... give or take one or two jobs depending on the event...but overall almost everything is best with those jobs.

One or two fights may be an exception but we are SO FAR from what you're suggesting the ideal is - which is where some jobs are good at some events and some jobs best for others. Right now it's "small handful is best for 95% of events" and "rest of jobs are not wanted for pretty much anything" and "here are some special isolated cases where an outlier job is useful"

This may not be your experience but it is mine and it is the experience shared by most anyone I know in game - and the one reflected in shouts.

Yes, technically you *can* use the "bad" jobs in this content but realistically outside of small close-knit groups - no one really does. Not everyone has the luxury of playing with people who are okay with doing things the hard/sub-par way.

[Raiyara]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to inform you that adjustments will be made to two-handed weapons soon!

I appreciate the feedback you guys are giving and encourage you to keep giving us your thoughts.

Any word on the devs ever reviewing some of the spells as well that npcs and mobs have but not players?

Examples = banish iv, aga 3, tier 4 aga elemental, hastega, remaining ninjutsu enfeebs, diaga series and so on.

[OmnysValefor]

Survivability is definitely an issue. But it seems SE is finally starting to realize this with their recent ambuscade offerings. It only took them over a decade to start to address it.

Just saw this line, even though I'd replied to this particular post before. Sorry.

Sulevia's addresses that concern. The new Usukane does nothing to address this. Regen isn't a terrible stat but you almost always want -dt (dt, mdt, pdt, mdb) over regen. Some players like to wear regen gear while not in combat/out of range for aoes but if you're fighting, damage reduction gear.

I was super-duper stoked about Sulevia's. It's an amazing set for newbies, gap fillers, and my very-geared PLD uses the legs in my -breath set). It's also a generally terrific set for drk/drg that need more DT (unsure about war, since they dip into so much of PLD's best stuff).

The new usukane just isn't.

Take the Ambuscade fight this month. Maybe the high amount of evasion on the set helps the mnk evade some of Mow and survive, but the drk wearing Sulevia's doesn't have to depend on a chance for the set's benefit to proc, they can rely on the -dt. And the -dt may be what saves them and will do more for the demon's elemental aoes and Hecatomb Waves.

Many other fights, the -dt is much much better than it is in this scenario.

I hate to sound like a broken record but mnk/sam/nin deserved better. Pup deserved different.

[Psion]

Which reminds me of another pup issue- deploy. we cannot use deploy further than 17.5 yalms or so (depending on monster size, this may be slightly shorter or further.) However, the max casting range for a player or automaton is just above 22 yalms, while ranged attacks are 25 yalms. divinator II doesn't help this, because the automaton only stays about 10 yalms away with this equipped... which is even worse than deploying at max range with divinator I and hoping it stays put.

I'd like to see this abilities ranged increased to at least 20-22 yalms so we can deploy automatons at max casting/shooting range, or change the divinator II to make them maintain max casting/shooting range distance depending on frame. As it stands, 10 yalms distance is worse than worthless- it's not far enough to avoid any but a very few AoE attacks, and now your automaton can't hit the mob with melee attacks to add to its damage. worst of both worlds. make it so they don't close in unless theyre out of casting/shooting range, and then have them only close in enough to be just in range again. monsters moving out of casting/shooting range isn't a huge issue to begin with, but having your automaton get pelted with AoEs because it decided 18 yalms is too far to cast (when it's not) so it feels like it should run into melee range is.

also, shortening deploy/retrieve to 5 seconds recast (or even 1 second!) would be a very welcome change, especially when tanking multiple mobs, or as an example, tanking a taurus boss. when a boss is rapidly firing tp moves, sometimes it uses a gaze attack so often that deploy or retrieve isn't ready. I don't see why we need to have a 10 second delay on simply telling our pet to attack or stop attacking a target.

[dmuller30]

I just noticed today BLU needs a upgraded refresh spell. Maybe something like refresh II? And would love it if my Haste II from erratic flutter could stop being over written by haste 1 lol.

[OmnysValefor]

BLU doesn't need a more potent refresh. A couple of the ARE bodies have refresh+2, along with easily obtained rawhide mask and augmented rawhide legs, as well as swords.

When expensive spells are part of my strategy, I make sure to have an RDM trust.

[lufia22]

Reading this thread makes me want to quit. I just came back to the game, but it's not very encouraging to see all these interesting jobs to play and yet most of them are useless.

Why do you guys continue to play if the job balance really is this abysmal?

[Urthdigger]

I mostly just idly do old content that's possible to solo nowadays, and shitpost on the forums. I've found it hard to really get motivated to play as of late.

[Ketaru]

I just noticed today BLU needs a upgraded refresh spell. Maybe something like refresh II? And would love it if my Haste II from erratic flutter could stop being over written by haste 1 lol.

Or just invite a RDM. At least that way, some semblance of job balance is preserved.

[Stompa]

Reading this thread makes me want to quit. I just came back to the game, but it's not very encouraging to see all these interesting jobs to play and yet most of them are useless.


I was BST75 in 2004, I solo'd every single xp, nobody would invite BST for xp parties, nobody would invite BST for events. Other players would MPK me while I was xping, by following me, waiting until I was Pet-swapping and they would voke the new pet, leaving me defenceless and dead. They weren't even doing it because I was killing their xp mobs, they just hated Beastmasters.

In 2006 I levelled PUP on solo, duo, and occasionally (very rarely) was able to form xp parties as PUP leader. When I asked parties if I could bring my PUP they laughed at me and told me to level a different job. When I formed parties as PUP leader, people would join the party, then realise I was going to stay on my PUP, and they would leave the party in disgust.

So job balance is a new cause really. In the past, it was just a known fact that you would be soloing BLM against weak mobs, or in BLM only manaburns. Players have always decided what the optimum party should look like, and if you don't fit their worldview, you're gonna solo/duo it. People even got angry if you even dared to ask about your Bst, Pup, Blm joining their party. And this was like 10 years ago.


Why do you guys continue to play if the job balance really is this abysmal?

So read what I wrote above. Prejudice against specific jobs has been going on since forever. So the question is "why did you ever play FFXI" not why are you still playing it today. Nothing has changed in terms of optimum-build parties, excluded jobs, jobs that get laughed at. It is only that some of the previously hated jobs are now popular, and vice versa.

I play FFXI for the same reasons I always did. I love Vana'diel, it is far more interesting to me than Earth is. I love too many things about the world of Vana'diel to list here. I love the FFXI Menu structures, I love the Game Engine itself, and the battle mechanics. I love my Automaton. I love fishing. I love Requiescat and Upheaval weaponskills, they way they look and feel. I love millions of things about FFXI which is why I still play it.

[Olor]

Reading this thread makes me want to quit. I just came back to the game, but it's not very encouraging to see all these interesting jobs to play and yet most of them are useless.

Why do you guys continue to play if the job balance really is this abysmal?

They aren't precisely useless, they just aren't good for the top of the line content. You can solo a lot of battlefields/missions on them, for example, or do some lower end group content (skirmish etc)

I am not currently ready for most endgame regardless - and I mostly solo stuff, so it's moot for me.

I play because the game is enjoyable, even if it needs balance.

If I did get there - BLU is one of my main/fave jobs so if I did feel confident/competent enough to play more with others I would actually have a place in content.

I just think balancing things better would improve the lives of other players.

[lufia22]

I was BST75 in 2004, I solo'd every single xp, nobody would invite BST for xp parties, nobody would invite BST for events. Other players would MPK me while I was xping, by following me, waiting until I was Pet-swapping and they would voke the new pet, leaving me defenceless and dead. They weren't even doing it because I was killing their xp mobs, they just hated Beastmasters. [snip].

You listed a bunch of old leveling group problems, but has end-game always been so limited in the job spectrum? For me, it's one thing for a job to be 10% worse than the rest, but it's another to exclude and entire archetype. That's just egregious and I can't fathom what the developers were thinking.

[zataz]

my linkshell uses thfs wars and even a rdm and we do well on Reisenjima nms.. that said the biggest issue we run into with new ls people is people trying to skip steps in gear progression

[xiozen]

Reading this thread makes me want to quit. I just came back to the game, but it's not very encouraging to see all these interesting jobs to play and yet most of them are useless.

Why do you guys continue to play if the job balance really is this abysmal?

I had to reply to this... I've been an avid subscriber since 2004; I main PUP and just recently finished my vereth III 119 h2h weapon, (so happy)... I digress.

Point is... I've had many experiences as many have described wherein I'd join a party (end game) as a PUP only to be asked in /tell if I have something else... I haven't been turned down, within recent memory, probably because of my PUPs capabilities... after the event, I'd see folks breaking out their level 32 pup or 15 pup, and getting /tells about the job because they'd been so impressed with it's functionality. Many folks don't understand how a lot of jobs perceived to be useless in endgame, can effectively function in endgame activities and once witnessed, they become "believers" lol... so as much as this was a perspective of the past, it has changed some what now-a-days, but it all depends on the effectiveness of the job. I'm an end game pup, with almost 1000 job points invested, and my automaton is a beast, able to easily solo NMs in Reisenjima--it was a long road but well worth the trip. :)

[Catmato]

my linkshell uses thfs wars and even a rdm and we do well on Reisenjima nms.. that said the biggest issue we run into with new ls people is people trying to skip steps in gear progression

How do you justify to them spending all that time, gil, and copper vouchers on Yorcia gear, just to throw it away for zi'tah gear?

[Kensagaku]

How do you justify to them spending all that time, gil, and copper vouchers on Yorcia gear, just to throw it away for zi'tah gear?

Quite easily. "If you can't hit the mob for more than 10 damage, assuming you can hit it at all, I'm not going to carry you into the next part." If all you do is carry people, they don't learn content strategies, and they don't improve. Yorcia teaches them self-reliability in soloing mobs and improving combat speed to ensure that they get enough puissance to keep monsters spawning, meaning that they learn ways to improve their gear and dps to speed through those mobs faster.

Additionally, not all cases have Zi'tah gear replacing Skirmish gear. Let's look at Taeon -> Rawhide. Taeon head vs. Rawhide head fully augmented leaves Rawhide with about 15 acc and 18 atk (before stat vomit) versus Taeon which can get up to 20 (total 30 accuracy) of each, as well as Triple Attack and extra STR/DEX to pull it ahead. Rawhide legs are mostly a casting-type piece, and as a result Taeon legs with melee augments is far, far better.

Let's look at Helios -> Psycloth next, with nuking in mind. Psycloth head? Not a hint of MAB, not even in the augments. Good Macc for debuffs, but certainly not a nuke piece like an INT+/MAB+/Occult Acumen Helios would be. Hands can go either way; better Macc, but far less MAB than modest Helios augments. Legs once more have no nuke value, and are an enfeebling piece (though if you're using Helios you're not doing much better here; Hagondes is the best for a good while), and the feet, again, lack in any form of nuking viability.

Zi'tah gear doesn't automatically invalidate older gear; as with many pieces of gear in FFXI, they serve different roles. Yorcia gear is fantastic for several jobs compared to their Zi'tah complements, and serves as a way to get into proper content without having someone hold your hand while you watch YouTube or something. It lets you start to participate when you get to Zi'tah, and in doing so, learn ways to improve upon your character. "Huh, I can't hit at this level content, how am I going to handle higher-level stuff?" You'll see people trying to figure out how to get past Vidala's leveling up by bringing along a nuker to spam wind and level her down, or going splat against Gestalt's Dread Spikes until they think to bring a dispeller. You'll see people take a few losses from Lydia until they bring a stunner, including going /DNC to stun her Bad Breath and proc her. Learning things like these can't be gained by simply having someone else do the fight while you flail about ineffectively or sit back with a video.

Additionally, gil is easy these days. >.> Make 600k+ a day doing Arrapago Remnants II once per day, at least on my server's Alexandrite costs. Throw in some other runs in BR2 and you can easily make more than a million for day even for a low-geared individual, so that there's no "spending all that gil." It's quite easy to get. Copper Vouchers... most people let them just sit. I can't think of the last time I made use of mine, I'm probably in the 100s from idly getting them and turning them in, so it's good they're being used for -something-. The only thing spent here that's really of value is time, and if you value time all that much, then I don't think grinding the high-end bosses for gear just to complain about nothing to do afterwards is much of a better investment.

[Diavolo]

How do you justify to them spending all that time, gil, and copper vouchers on Yorcia gear, just to throw it away for zi'tah gear?

If Skirmish gear is a necessary stepping stone for you then the newest Records of Eminence quests are practically handing it to you. No need to waste time and gil hoping for perfect augments with stones when you know it'll be replaced soon. Between that and reforged Artifact/Relic/Empyrean gear it's not hard at all to begin the climb up the ladder.

[OmnysValefor]

my linkshell uses thfs wars and even a rdm and we do well on Reisenjima nms.. that said the biggest issue we run into with new ls people is people trying to skip steps in gear progression

On the other side of the same coin: Some of the vorseals are hard to get without help if you can't use your own powerful job to brute-force through (SCH, SMN, GEO, BLU particularly).

I agree that a lot of people want to skip tiers and tiers of gear, but some servers (I'm on one) never see pug groups going for vorseal clears, so without ls help (not saying your ls doesn't help), it can be difficult.


Quite easily. "If you can't hit the mob for more than 10 damage, assuming you can hit it at all, I'm not going to carry you into the next part." If all you do is carry people, they don't learn content strategies, and they don't improve. Yorcia teaches them self-reliability in soloing mobs and improving combat speed to ensure that they get enough puissance to keep monsters spawning, meaning that they learn ways to improve their gear and dps to speed through those mobs faster.

Agreed.


Let's look at Helios -> Psycloth next, with nuking in mind. Psycloth head? Not a hint of MAB, not even in the augments. Good Macc for debuffs, but certainly not a nuke piece like an INT+/MAB+/Occult Acumen Helios would be. Hands can go either way; better Macc, but far less MAB than modest Helios augments. Legs once more have no nuke value, and are an enfeebling piece (though if you're using Helios you're not doing much better here; Hagondes is the best for a good while), and the feet, again, lack in any form of nuking viability.

Wholeheartedly agreed. A friend came back and I was helping him gear his BLM so I actually took a close look at Psycloth and yeah. BLM got the shaft from Zi'tah.


Zi'tah gear doesn't automatically invalidate older gear; as with many pieces of gear in FFXI, they serve different roles. Yorcia gear is fantastic for several jobs compared to their Zi'tah complements, and serves as a way to get into proper content without having someone hold your hand while you watch YouTube or something. It lets you start to participate when you get to Zi'tah, and in doing so, learn ways to improve upon your character. "Huh, I can't hit at this level content, how am I going to handle higher-level stuff?" You'll see people trying to figure out how to get past Vidala's leveling up by bringing along a nuker to spam wind and level her down, or going splat against Gestalt's Dread Spikes until they think to bring a dispeller. You'll see people take a few losses from Lydia until they bring a stunner, including going /DNC to stun her Bad Breath and proc her. Learning things like these can't be gained by simply having someone else do the fight while you flail about ineffectively or sit back with a video.

My only complaint with Skirmish is the extreme tendency of stones to augment towards the low useless side. Rei augmenting isn't very different but it's easier to get decent/good augments, easier to spam the augmenting process, and easier to farm stones.

[Catmato]

If Skirmish gear is a necessary stepping stone for you then the newest Records of Eminence quests are practically handing it to you.

Is that from the new Intermediate Tutorial RoE quests?

[Ketaru]

Ok, so nobody seems to be asking:

Why is WHM's status as the premium healer so sacred that nobody seems to question its ubiquity in parties? It seems to be this big issue with people that jobs like BST, SCH, GEO, and BLU have become staples to parties. If a RDM or SCH, WHM's closest relatives, were tasked with healing damage and status in some of the hardest battles these days, they simply couldn't compare.

[Hyrist]

Ok, so nobody seems to be asking:

Why is WHM's status as the premium healer so sacred that nobody seems to question its ubiquity in parties? It seems to be this big issue with people that jobs like BST, SCH, GEO, and BLU have become staples to parties. If a RDM or SCH, WHM's closest relatives, were tasked with healing damage and status in some of the hardest battles these days, they simply couldn't compare.

Mainly because I never want to be a main-healer as a RDM ever, ever again. ToAU burned that out of me permanently and while I'll help heal, I'll never acknowledge sole responsibility over it.

[VoiceMemo]

and add some sort of debuff effect to Foe Requiem like dia and bio have, because as it is now 8 damage a tick for Foe Requiem 7 is nothing.

I have to disagree with this statement, in my opinion Foe Requiem 7 is one of the best spells for brd IF you are RM(Relic, Mythic) Master brd.

From Job points 20x3 points of damage, that's an additional 60 points of dmg. Add in Gjallarhorn +4 thats 4 more points, for a total of 8+60+4 for 72dmg/tic. Then you factor in that song duration was applied to offensive songs. With Mythic, Gjallarhorn and other duration gear unresisted requiem 7 last over 5 minutes. This is one if not the longest DOT possible, which is very helpful in wipe situations where you don't want mob HP regening.

[Helldemon]

I thought most NM's were immune to req? Besides, Sch's can do 100 times that in DoT so <.<

[Raydeus]

I thought most NM's were immune to req? Besides, Sch's can do 100 times that in DoT so <.<

Yep, Requiem and Poison spells are completely useless. Mobs have way too much HP for them to matter at all and SCH can DoT hundreds of times the amount.

I seem to remember there was some talk about adjusting the dmg of both, but like many other things it has been forgotten in time.

PS > And speaking of job adjustments, I wonder if Enspells 2 will ever be fixed. Not holding my breath at all, just curious.

[Kjara]

Personally I'd really enjoy seeing Ready/Reward's range going back to what it was before. I enjoy meleeing as BST, but normally I do so by fighting multiple mobs at a time. Or at least, let us have a range so that when fighting larger foes we can stay behind them while pet tanks, and not side-to-side. It's kind of rediculous that Dragoon wyverns can do that, and they're a kind of pet that always follows the master no matter what.

I don't think the nerf changed the habits of any back-line BST. I still see them around. They still stand back while their pet fights if they feel like it. The only difference is that they're not using Ready nor Reward anymore.

The way I'm seeing it, the change to the range only made Ready/Reward some forgotten abilities like Charm and Tame.

[VoiceMemo]

I thought most NM's were immune to req? Besides, Sch's can do 100 times that in DoT so <.<

They are not immune, you just need to have alot of MACC for it to land. When compared to SCH's helix yes it's not much, BUT the duration IS. I don't know of any DOT that is longer than a RM brd's requiem 7.

Like I said in my original post, it is handy in case you use a wipe strategy to prevent mob from regaining hp while you unweaken. IE in all escha mobs don't depop after all wipe and die if party remains in the instanced area.

[Yoji_Fujito]

Hello,


Hello everyone,

I'd like to inform you that adjustments will be made to two-handed weapons soon!

I appreciate the feedback you guys are giving and encourage you to keep giving us your thoughts.

I would just like to make a quick clarification that the development team has only begun to talk about the fact that we'd like to make adjustments to two-handed weapons, and the details have yet to be fleshed out. Once we make some progress on this we will be sure to share!

[Ketaru]

Mainly because I never want to be a main-healer as a RDM ever, ever again. ToAU burned that out of me permanently and while I'll help heal, I'll never acknowledge sole responsibility over it.

Just because main healing used to be unpleasant (bear a lot of this was against mobs where debuff removal was mostly unnecessary) doesn't change the fact that one job has this unquestioned seat at the table. That's job imbalance. Thing is, I don't think WHM is overpowered at all. I think we're all just glad that at least one job out there is capable of meeting the challenge of healing against some of the new endgame content. But similar to the discussions about whether BLU is overpowered or not, it might be time to think about improving the healing chops of other jobs, like RDM, SCH, DNC, maybe even WHM as a subjob. If more jobs were better healers, it would be one step in making things better for other jobs as well, such as meleers who are invited less because of the risk involved with using them.

[detlef]

I've always wondered the same thing. There have been various time in this game's life where we've been able to get away with using melee tanks. People would cry about how they wanted to bring tanks back, but by tank they always meant PLD. Nowadays, RUN gives PLD a run for its money (plus NIN had a good run back in the day).

And while there were times where you used SCH or RDM (Neo-Nyzul and ToAU merit PTs readily come to mind), you'd almost never use those jobs to main heal something truly difficult. But somehow WHM always has a place at the table and nobody ever questions it.

[Stompa]

Hello,



I would just like to make a quick clarification that the development team has only begun to talk about the fact that we'd like to make adjustments to two-handed weapons, and the details have yet to be fleshed out. Once we make some progress on this we will be sure to share!


My Jobmaster Warrior has four Fencer Gifts in the Jobpoints/Gifts progression line.

Warrior's primary weapon is Greataxe, Greataxe is Warrior's highest skill rank, Greataxe is WAR's Oboro JSE weapon, Greataxe is most of WAR's RME weapons etc.

This means that four of my main WAR Gifts (Fencer Bonus) are completely useless to me, they literally never give me any bonuses at all, because I am using Warrior's primary weapon ; the Greataxe.

So, please consider adding a duality to the Jobmaster Gifts, where it says "Fencer bonus" could you please add "Fencer Bonus (if using a 2-handed weapon this Gift will grant an Accuracy bonus instead of Fencer bonus.)"

[Helldemon]

This is an idea that was taken from someone on BG(I don't remember who and couldn't find the extensive list they made) but another thing that would help out melee, pet job and even mages is to combine/make new buffs for all the support jobs. Right now between melee, mage and pet's all support jobs have separate buffs for each type which forces exclusion. If you have a mage and a melee in one pt, it either takes to long or is to cumbersome and even sometimes not even possible to try and get all needed buffs on each character. All buffs need to be combined so an acc buff gives acc/macc to both players and pet's. Cor's crit roll needs to give crit and magic crit to players/pet's, etc. etc.

[OmnysValefor]

I think it comes down to RDM being a jack of all four roles (support, elemental, healing, melee) and being a master of little (besides enfeebling). Every RDM wants their job to be a master of a different aspect and some people want all aspects.

RDM would also require a bard-level overhaul in the healing department (which bard still needs) to be able to handle aoe spam.

I did a melee-setup Yilan with a (surprise!) RDM main healer. We won, because Yilan is easy, but I was doing a lot lot of curing on my PLD.

[Urmom]

Dedicated BLU mages, PLD and RDM have Mythic weapons, so they can Triple attack and Quadruple attack this weapon Skill using Mythic after math level 3.

Chant du Cygne Double attack its 12.25 - 50% of the times a BLU mage will be Double attacking this
Chant du Cygne Triple attack its 14.70 - 40% of time a Mythic BLU will be Triple attacking this
Chant du Cygne Quadruple attack its 17.15 - 20% of time mythic BLU can quadruple attack this

50% of the time 40% of the time 20% of the time... something doesn't add up here... don't know exactly what you were using but I'd say the 20% "quad attack" is wrong.

[BurnNotice]

Hello,



I would just like to make a quick clarification that the development team has only begun to talk about the fact that we'd like to make adjustments to two-handed weapons, and the details have yet to be fleshed out. Once we make some progress on this we will be sure to share!

Forgive me Yoji_Fujito, but this has been an issue for sometime and the players can agree that this issue hasn't been given the priority it deserves. For the people that love to use DRG, WAR, DRK, SAM, and RUN at their favorite event and not being able to produce the damage output of their one-handed counterparts is truly unfair and unbalanced. My question is, why continue to delay this any further? Please make it a priority to have this fix by July version update. Thank you.

[Numquam]

I have been playing BLU close to about 8 years or so. BLU is pretty over powered. I'm not going to lie at all. I mean, I really, really love my BLU. I think one JP category for the Trait Bonus should have been sufficient, but we got a second one. That second one...man..what can I say...its like giving the crack addict more crack..bad analogy, but whatever. I'm just saying there is a job imbalance and sitting in Jeuno watching shout after shout calling BLU as the only DD is heartbreaking for a game I love so much. BLU has the ability to self heal for over 1.2k with the right gear, they have the ability to crowd control, they have the ability to dispel and erase move debuffs. We can hit the Haste Cap and maintain it for close to 9 minutes. Don't get me wrong, most of the BLUs I see are usually just whacking stuff with swords, but I just dislike seeing so many of us all the time...there is just hardly any diversity now.

[Urthdigger]

Don't get me wrong, most of the BLUs I see are usually just whacking stuff with swords, but I just dislike seeing so many of us all the time...there is just hardly any diversity now.

This right here hits the nail on the head for why I hate the current state of the game. I've had people say that I might just be salty that I can't participate unless I level up X or Y. Well... that's partly it, but leveling up a new job isn't hard. No, what grinds my gears is simply that for a game with 22 jobs, you only ever see 7 or 8 used. It's not fair to say it's like those jobs don't exist: It'd be better off if they actually didn't. Having this whole sea of choice open before you and finding out your options are actually extremely limited... it's heartbreaking. There's all these cool themes, lore, abilities, possible strategies present within these multitude of jobs.

As it is, unless you boot up the game and one of the True Jobs is the one that jumps out at you as the one that appeals to you, the game simply raises your hopes up only to dash them against the ground.

I've had people complain against me in the past for being rather harsh in telling newbies and returning players to give up on their dreams of leveling whatever job they mentioned. The way I see it, better they find out now and step into line early than to find out several months down the line.

[Hercule]

Hello,



I would just like to make a quick clarification that the development team has only begun to talk about the fact that we'd like to make adjustments to two-handed weapons, and the details have yet to be fleshed out. Once we make some progress on this we will be sure to share!

Dear devs,
http://s.quickmeme.com/img/5b/5befbbacd25b4371475360d614cd749e953206c20157a7225dda1e79f88c6bfa.jpg

[Hyrist]

Just because main healing used to be unpleasant (bear a lot of this was against mobs where debuff removal was mostly unnecessary) doesn't change the fact that one job has this unquestioned seat at the table. That's job imbalance. Thing is, I don't think WHM is overpowered at all. I think we're all just glad that at least one job out there is capable of meeting the challenge of healing against some of the new endgame content. But similar to the discussions about whether BLU is overpowered or not, it might be time to think about improving the healing chops of other jobs, like RDM, SCH, DNC, maybe even WHM as a subjob. If more jobs were better healers, it would be one step in making things better for other jobs as well, such as meleers who are invited less because of the risk involved with using them.

I don't beleive this is a problem with the mechanics as much as I used to.

I just saw Scholar pretty much main heal an Escha Zi'tah run's healing with just Regen and a spot cure.

This is a matter of desire behind role, and how healers are just plain uninviting, especially on classes, Like Red Mage, that are capable of other, more fun roles. White Mage is unquestionably the go-to for healers because that's ALL it is. It's a healer, everyone knows that it is more than the role and the specialty, it's White Mage's identity. You ask Scholar to heal and they're going to question about it being about the party being efficient enough - that's where the Mage Burns really clinch their argument.

Scholars are capable of taking a party healer role on themselves. Hybrids roles like Red Mage, Dancer, Blue Mage and Summoner can help alleviate the healing role (do we really count Puppetmaster and Bard?), but none of them want to. That's more the reason why White Mage has absolutely no contest when it comes to the role, and most players are ok that way. Sure, boosting certain Job's capabilities of doing so may help the performance gap. But it's not as large as it's being played out if all your Hybrids actually used the skills they have to split down the healing role. This is another problem that has as much of the burden for it on the community as it does the developers.

On the development end, less emphasis in wide severe AoE Damage is more the solution than buffing classes to stuff they won't do anyways better. The test of that will be prevalent when SMN's healing pacts get buffed, but rarely utilized to their fullest. It's that predictable.




I've had people complain against me in the past for being rather harsh in telling newbies and returning players to give up on their dreams of leveling whatever job they mentioned. The way I see it, better they find out now and step into line early than to find out several months down the line.

I'd say, respectfully. You are being harsh.

For the most part, you're wrong about the dream thing. Most of any REM can be soloed, and what's the epitome of endgame to a player's personal progression if not that? Escha is over-hyped for its randomness at the highest level of gears, and there is alternative progression pieces for most items. Yes, it's not Best in Slot but the more you push your gear, the easier it becomes to convince the friends you make down the line to let you in to do things. Speaking from experience.

I've got no problem telling people they're in for a hard road, so they go in with the right level of determination. Telling them to quit and 'fall in line'? No, that's just destructive. You'll lose people that way.

[Urthdigger]

I've got no problem telling people they're in for a hard road, so they go in with the right level of determination. Telling them to quit and 'fall in line'? No, that's just destructive. You'll lose people that way.

In a way, I am simply telling people they're in for a hard road. I usually prefer that they oppose me and stride forward out of spite. If there is some way to utilize these jobs without waiting for SE to buff the living crap out of them, they'll be the ones to find it. Perhaps it's destructive, but I don't consider it a grave crime to lose people. Any who'd leave over my words would just as well leave when they finally start trying to party and hear the endless chorus of "Don't you have anything else?"

[OmnysValefor]

I'm the same way Urth, and I don't blame you.

If I see a guy on a job that I could tell was once well-geared, and he's returned to make it glorious again, I'll tell him the hard truth. It's not a coincidence that you don't see SAMs and BRDs and WARs around.

To the newbie players who want to make their sparks-thieves glorious, I'll tell them the truth too. Not only is the job not really desirable and not usually relevant (th frequently doesn't matter/has little effect), you're competing with a lot of better thfs than you for one spot.

I don't like the current meta but it's better to tell a guy than watch him get rawhide, get herc, get all the JSE he needs, build a mandau and then realize noone wants him most of the time, and if they do, it's frequently to tag and try to stay alive. Noone cares about your epeen Rudra's.

It's better to tell people that up-front.

I know dozens of people that stick to one job or one job type (say melee) and want in on everything and don't care how they're hurting the strategy. They blame other players for trying to be practical. If you want me to help you get gear for your warrior, help me do it on blm or sch or geo. Why should the load be on your friends to carry a job that is a hinderance? You need to put some effort in to.

Your fresh warrior isn't going to help the party kill the IG ironside any quicker/easier (harder, in fact due to hp-scaling), and is in-fact only costing a spot that would be better filled by an appropriate job, and usually even a trust on the appropriate job (sad as that is).

I'm bothered by the design of endgame-overall, but I don't feel guilty for having to lay these facts out for players. It's not the fault of players.

[Ketaru]

Just to be clear, I don't think RDM is in a terrible place in the game right now. It still does have a lot going for it. For the most part, in current content, I do think it can be fit in to make a worthwhile contribution (albeit likely not optimal) to any content. That is certainly more than a lot of other jobs can say.

The fact it's a hybrid also means it is more capable at soloing content, which is no small facet of the game right now. For example, unlike many other jobs, it can work effectively with a greater variety of trusts and is not burdened with having to fit in a trust with Refresh, like Koru-Moru or Arciela.

I'm just looking at the claims that the game is becoming increasingly centralized with respect to what jobs are viable, and its just curious to me that it's always the same ones being mentioned: BLU BLM BST PLD GEO COR, yet for some reason, it's simply a given a fact that your party will have WHM for some reason. Maybe we ought to entertain the possibility that other jobs could use a little buff to healing if we find ourselves always wanting a WHM that badly?

I will say as a side note though, because this subject has come up as of late, that peoples' bloodlust to see BLU nerfed is making me nervous. One of the things that has actually made RDM melee rather adequate these days is the fact it has Chant du Cygne. Same goes for PLD. It would be nerf to these two jobs for no reason if they wrecklessly nerf CDC just to bring BLU down a notch

[Hercule]

SE, maybe you could try the boost you did in 75 era (before nerfing it after like only 1 week)

So, this was that:

Two Hands weapon = 2 hands = 2X the bonus from DEX and STR (Accuracy, Attack) than One hand Weapons

[OmnysValefor]

Just because main healing used to be unpleasant (bear a lot of this was against mobs where debuff removal was mostly unnecessary) doesn't change the fact that one job has this unquestioned seat at the table. That's job imbalance. Thing is, I don't think WHM is overpowered at all. I think we're all just glad that at least one job out there is capable of meeting the challenge of healing against some of the new endgame content. But similar to the discussions about whether BLU is overpowered or not, it might be time to think about improving the healing chops of other jobs, like RDM, SCH, DNC, maybe even WHM as a subjob. If more jobs were better healers, it would be one step in making things better for other jobs as well, such as meleers who are invited less because of the risk involved with using them.

Glad I stumbled onto this, rather than restating it later in the thread.

I've said similar things about BLU before.

People that look at BLU and get upset think it's CDC that make it powerful. It's not CDC. If the paladin could reliably self-skillchain against single-target mobs, people wouldn't even want a melee.

It's Accuracy Bonus, allowing the BLU a stronger accuracy boost while wearing more defensive gear.

It's Dual Wield, allowing the BLU to sub whatever is appropriate to the fight. Sometimes, NIN is the most appropriate, sometimes RDM is, sometimes RUN is.

It's spells like Saline Coat (+magic defense bonus) which mitigates the magic damage the blu takes, and barrier tusk which provides some additional PDT.

It's sometimes self heals. When your hp goes read, casting a cure whether the whm is casting or not may be what saves you.

Double Attack, Triple Attack, Attack Bonus, Magic Accuracy Bonus, all of things are just icing on the cake.

In this skillchain environement, people don't care how much the ws's and sc bonus are (really, have you seen how much scholars typically do?), all they care about is that the melee doing them can hit the boss and survive the boss.

Scholars are preferable because they're not exposed to the danger that most melee, including blu, are.

I'll say it til I'm blu in the face.

- - -

It's is funny how we don't want top tanks nerfed, we want lesser tanks buffed. We don't want WHMs curagas nerfed, we want lesser healers buffed but the reason you're not inviting my drk must absolutely be that BLU exists (in fairness: I don't have a drk, I have a modestly geared blu that goes to modest content).

[Shyles]

I have been playing BLU close to about 8 years or so. BLU is pretty over powered. I'm not going to lie at all. I mean, I really, really love my BLU. I think one JP category for the Trait Bonus should have been sufficient, but we got a second one. That second one...man..what can I say...its like giving the crack addict more crack..bad analogy, but whatever. I'm just saying there is a job imbalance and sitting in Jeuno watching shout after shout calling BLU as the only DD is heartbreaking for a game I love so much...there is just hardly any diversity now.

This is a big frustration for me too and I agree about the BLU jp gifts. Though personally as a Dancer main, and seeing what good players can do with Warrior, Ninja, Dark Knight, Dragoon, I don't agree that Blue Mages over powered. In fact, it might even be accurate to say that they aren't the "top melee" job anymore. Most average blue mages aren't very impressive.

For comparison's sake (and a little shameless bragging), my Dancer is very strong. Since the 2100 JP update, I have never once been beaten on a parse by a Blue Mage, even though I'm still non-mythic, and don't have particularly amazing augments. I have, however, been beaten by ninjas and mythic DRKs. Yet, even for trivial things like CP parties, or Escha T1~T2 fights, the only melee anyone shouts for is blue mage. I have literally been turned down for a melee burn CP party because I wanted to come as Dancer instead of Blue mage…

The point is, many people simply accept that Blue Mage is "the strongest DD in the game", which is probably not true anymore. You are more likely to find a 2100 jp Blue Mage with mediocre gear, and only know how to spam CDC and interrupt skillchains, rather than a truly amazing Blue Mage. I would argue that the reason why BLUs are popular is because their job traits make the job much less gear dependent when compared to other melee jobs.

So I don't really think there is much of a balance issue when it comes to comparing damage output between BLU vs Other Melee. I think the real imbalance is between Melee and Magic jobs mainly due to NM damage output, enmity, and immanence. People will always chose the path of least resistance, and to put it plainly, a Scholar + Black mage can produce very high damage much more safely and with more forgiving gear requirements.

[Stompa]

I think it is wrong to say to new players that they can't play the main job they love.

For most normal mid-range players, especially today with the smaller worlds, the amount of time they spend in serious LS events and serious hardcore battles, is actually quite a small percentage of their game time.

For most people, including myself, we spend a lot of time on mid-range content, farming, soloing, just playing with friends in low-man mid-range events.

For these activities, we can play our favourite jobs. If you love playing a certain job, the modern game offers you the possibility of playing this job >90% of the time, if you are happy playing mid-range content, farming RME, just having fun with friends. Only occasionally do I need to dust off my non-favourite jobs to fit into a serious event.

This is quite different to the old game, where I spent my life pretty much on WHM, had a Nobles Tunic in my inventory for about six years, even though WHM is not my main job or my favourite job! In the old game, only <10% of my game time was on "favourite jobs" and most of my game time was on Utility jobs. So this is the complete opposite of today.

[Afania]

People that look at BLU and get upset think it's CDC that make it powerful. It's not CDC. If the paladin could reliably self-skillchain against single-target mobs, people wouldn't even want a melee.


Umm, PLD could already reliably self-skillchain against single-target mobs, in fact any melee job with enough buffs can. We still want a melee(BLU).

[OmnysValefor]

Yeah, if you load it up with support, the support that you're not getting in most mana-burn setups--and the paladin will usually be enfeebled by something.

Or you can bring something that doesn't need specific support to self-sc like BLU or DNC or SAM and others, and anything if you factor in aftermaths.

[Zeldar]

"If I see a guy on a job that I could tell was once well-geared, and he's returned to make it glorious again, I'll tell him the hard truth. It's not a coincidence that you don't see SAMs and BRDs and WARs around."
REALLY? My ls uses all 3 frequently and with much success.
"To the newbie players who want to make their sparks-thieves glorious, I'll tell them the truth too. Not only is the job not really desirable and not usually relevant"
REALLY? We also use THF quite frequently. The ones we use normally top the parse.
As you can see, the real problem isnt the balancing of the jobs, but the unwillingness of the player base to accept anything other than a set of strategies developed by other players. Every job has a use, with a very few lacking in the ability to greatly contribute (SMN being one). We dont use DRK, DRG or PUP either, but probably would if any of our members cared enough about them to pimp them out.

[Secondplanet]

"If I see a guy on a job that I could tell was once well-geared, and he's returned to make it glorious again, I'll tell him the hard truth. It's not a coincidence that you don't see SAMs and BRDs and WARs around."
REALLY? My ls uses all 3 frequently and with much success.
"To the newbie players who want to make their sparks-thieves glorious, I'll tell them the truth too. Not only is the job not really desirable and not usually relevant"
REALLY? We also use THF quite frequently. The ones we use normally top the parse.
As you can see, the real problem isnt the balancing of the jobs, but the unwillingness of the player base to accept anything other than a set of strategies developed by other players. Every job has a use, with a very few lacking in the ability to greatly contribute (SMN being one). We dont use DRK, DRG or PUP either, but probably would if any of our members cared enough about them to pimp them out.

THANK YOU

My wifey and I duo quite a bit as smn and drg and if we through a tank into the mix we can get quite a bit done, We're still working out the kinks on SC darkness but we got SC light down to an art and can often do about 4-5 in the first minute or two of the fight with no issue. Imagine what her and i can accomplish if we were in a real party with actual support for us doing this like a blm/sch/geo to magic burst it all the time?
But i agree that everyone reads how to play their job and how party set ups HAVE TO BE online and take it as the only way to get anything done in this game.

[Kensagaku]

"If I see a guy on a job that I could tell was once well-geared, and he's returned to make it glorious again, I'll tell him the hard truth. It's not a coincidence that you don't see SAMs and BRDs and WARs around."
REALLY? My ls uses all 3 frequently and with much success.
"To the newbie players who want to make their sparks-thieves glorious, I'll tell them the truth too. Not only is the job not really desirable and not usually relevant"
REALLY? We also use THF quite frequently. The ones we use normally top the parse.
As you can see, the real problem isnt the balancing of the jobs, but the unwillingness of the player base to accept anything other than a set of strategies developed by other players. Every job has a use, with a very few lacking in the ability to greatly contribute (SMN being one). We dont use DRK, DRG or PUP either, but probably would if any of our members cared enough about them to pimp them out.

I'm sorry, but while I am happy to see that other people are making attempts to be inclusive, you're an outlier, not a constant. In the majority of pickup groups, you won't see a melee because it's not the "safe" strategy. And in all honesty, on anything modestly reasonable, they're not 100% wrong, as sad as it is, and I say that as an AG Mythic DRG.

Let's just pick a few Reisenjima t2s; the Harpeia Strophadia spams AoE Sleep + unremovable Paralyze, AoE Silence and unremovable Plague, AoE Encumberance and Muddle (both unremovable), and high-damage AoE that can wipe out anyone not wearing proper DT gear, especially since the same mob can wipe buffs and it's risky to run your WHM in there to re-cast Shellra/Protectra. But this is one example, let's move to another; ol' Ironside. Every attack is AoE and comes with Bind, Stun, or Amnesia. Has moves like Arm Cannon (AoE damage + HP/MP down, meaning next attack may be your last), Seismic Impact (AoE damage + Slow/Terror), and Eradicator (AoE Weakness), all of which are easily avoided simply by being out of range, which is why people prefer this strategy.

And this isn't even getting to the harder content, where acc requirements become more and more strenuous for melee to keep up with, where you have to have many more support than mage strategies just to ensure they hit. And then when HP scaling comes into play, that means that all that extra support is a detriment that is going to drag you down in the end because they're adding more HP that you're not meeting by adding these extra people. This is why the idea of melee is undesirable; mobs do massive AoE damage and spam multiple enfeebles, their evasion is through the roof, and to even assure you have a fighting chance due to the disparity between mages standing safe and only needing macc on cast while you need to have all the acc in the world, you need extra support to buff up your accuracy along with the monster's HP.

Do I wish we could bring back more melee strategies? Of course. DRG is my favorite job by a long shot, and I'd love to see it in more content. I even AG'd my Ryunohige, so I definitely want to use it. Do I want to see more job inclusion? Definitely! I played BST and PUP and BLU back before they were bandwagoned (thankfully PUP not nearly as much) and enjoyed the chances I got included into a party, and loved it more when they were more accepted. But right now, in a system where mages are highly favored due to magic burst potential and safe positioning as opposed to melee buffing the enemy's HP by getting enough support to be viable on them, it's just not plausible.

[OmnysValefor]

It's baffling to me that people can't observe the lopsided nature to the synergy of effective strategies in endgame. I've explained it before, several times, but whatever.

Noone needed to "tell me" that GEO, being a gimpy blm with super buffs, works its best magic (lol) in a party with other elemental magic users, especially when another one of those jobs can create the skillchains that all 4 (counting RDM) of those jobs can work with.

You can bring melee and leave them buffless, or try to split buffs between the two, or bring two support jobs (two geomancers usually). You can have one geo riding vex/attune, or you can bring a third GEO. You can wait out their amnesia, inconveniently timed stuns, terrors, poorly timed paralyzes (or just slow-reacting WHMs). You can deal with the fact that sometimes they'll die and nothing could have saved them, and you can wait on their weakness. You can wait for the melee to struggle with what-frequently-feels like impossible-to-meet accuracy demands as well, especially in a lowman setting especially if you have a guy that doesn't have that many clears (which again, clears don't seem as vital to mages).

While you're waiting on these things, you can come to the forums and be mad at players like me for being honest, or you can admit that the imbalance is severely in favor of mages, on many fronts, and that maybe something needs to be done about it.

Here you go SecondPlanet, here's a few Darknesses. They work either way, hence the <>


Geirskogul <> Eclipse Bite
Geirskogul <> Mountain Buster
Impulse Drive <> Rush
Impulse Drive <> Spinning Dive
Stardiver <> Rush
Stardiver <> Spinning Dive

[Helldemon]

You can wait for the melee to struggle with what-frequently-feels like impossible-to-meet accuracy demands as well, especially in a lowman setting especially if you have a guy that doesn't have that many clears (which again, clears don't seem as vital to mages).


One of the NM's, I think in reisen needs 1900 acc to cap according to bg-wiki... That's what, possibly several hundred million spent in acc gear, job master, and 3 or maybe even 4 support jobs throwing acc buffs on one melee job just to have decent acc.

[Secondplanet]

Here you go SecondPlanet, here's a few Darknesses. They work either way, hence the <>

Thanks for the awesome list but my biggest issue is that we have the timing for light down its just darks timing for the weaponskill seems a little off for the animation cues i've often used.

[Ketaru]

It's baffling to me that people can't observe the lopsided nature to the synergy of effective strategies in endgame. I've explained it before, several times, but whatever.

It's from lack of clarity by what we mean by relevant content. When I'm talking about what ought to be considered the benchmark, I'm using examples a little higher, like Escha Zi'tah T3, Escha Ru'Aun T3, Reisenjima T2+, the third battle of Sinister Reign, just to name a few. Regular Ambuscade, even on Very Difficult, seems deliberately scaled compared to some to examples and are generally not what I'm talking about. In fact, I'd say Ambuscade is generally very lenient with respect to what jobs are viable.

Melee, for example, might be very viable against most T1 Escha mobs. But that seems like a bit of a weightless consideration when you consider that these are soloable by several jobs.

[OmnysValefor]

Ambuscade--the dragon and the taurus/demon--seem like a pity-gift to melee. Due to rotating weakness on dragon and pretty high m.eva on taurus/demon especially once they leveled up after the other died, they're best suited for melee.

I never liked that people try to seperate from what the community considers hard from what your static group considers hard. If it's hard for your group, you're just as valid bringing the ideal jobs as the first people to kill it were. You might have spattering of higher-tier gear which the first kills didn't have, but that doesn't invalidate your right to strategize.

[Helldemon]

Ambuscade--the dragon and the taurus/demon--seem like a pity-gift to melee. Due to rotating weakness on dragon and pretty high m.eva on taurus/demon especially once they leveled up after the other died, they're best suited for melee.

Are they that bad? I knew groups that did VD for both with MB setups in under 5 minutes.

[OmnysValefor]

Are they that bad? I knew groups that did VD for both with MB setups in under 5 minutes.

I've never tried with stellar mages, but I've have several melee groups killing demon + taurus in 3 minutes. One, notably, was geo, geo, geo (lol, it's honestly what was online) pld, sam, whm. We were actually doing atk+/def-/acc+/eva-/def+/haste and taking turns entrusting the tank (Never been a fan of stacking geos, especially in a single party. Run out of useful things to cast).

Dragon had some rotating weakness thing or so I heard (that I never bothered to figure out) and that's why people preferred melee there.

In this month, when one dies, the others' magic evasion increases, but I can see how that can be overcome with good gear and the magic acc bonus from skillchaining.

Like I said, I feel like this was designed as a token fight for melee, even if mages do work^^.

[Urthdigger]

Ambuscade--the dragon and the taurus/demon--seem like a pity-gift to melee. Due to rotating weakness on dragon and pretty high m.eva on taurus/demon especially once they leveled up after the other died, they're best suited for melee.

I never liked that people try to seperate from what the community considers hard from what your static group considers hard. If it's hard for your group, you're just as valid bringing the ideal jobs as the first people to kill it were. You might have spattering of higher-tier gear which the first kills didn't have, but that doesn't invalidate your right to strategize.

Speaking as someone trying to gear up a melee, I wouldn't really call it a "gift to melee". The m.eva may go up when one dies, but the common strategy was to leave one at ~5% and kill the other anyhow so there's not much hp to take care of... and the taurus had some pretty high eva to begin with. Even with 1100+ acc it was a royal pain to hit the bastard, so the only real effective way to do so was already be better geared than the gear it's giving out.

[dmuller30]

Speaking as someone trying to gear up a melee, I wouldn't really call it a "gift to melee". The m.eva may go up when one dies, but the common strategy was to leave one at ~5% and kill the other anyhow so there's not much hp to take care of... and the taurus had some pretty high eva to begin with. Even with 1100+ acc it was a royal pain to hit the bastard, so the only real effective way to do so was already be better geared than the gear it's giving out.

You hit the nail right on the head with this comment. For new comers that need gear this would be a great starter set to get into end game content. My gear far exceeds the gear that ambuscade has to offer which baffles me because I feel I need to be as geared as I am to even beat it to get that gear. What if someone lvled MNK as their first job? There is no way they could beat this with just their sparks gear I feel as if even the Zitah stuff is better so why would you try to get worse gear to fight in? And why do you have to be better geared than the gear offered as a reward?