Free hand-outs? [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Diavolo

04-17-2016, 04:16 PM

Anyone else thinking they giving out too many free hand outs these days? A free coffer from the wanted dial that pops out equipment for 0 effort. Just feels like it lowers content life expectancy, creates a lack of incentive to do anything and makes people quit that much faster. Or is it a good thing? Just my opinion.

I agree. Login -> profit -> logout. It brings nothing to the community. In fact, any gear obtained by those goblins or even items obtained via login points detracts from the game because it means you aren't taking part in the content required to obtain it in the first place. I understand the idea behind it, but they took it way too far. There's no reason to be handing out end game gear just for logging in.

It's being done is to increase profitability of ffxi.

It won't hurt the game at all, in-fact quite the opposite. Most players would never get this gear at all if not for these log-in event.s

Not with that attitude they wouldn't. The game is easier than ever and asking people to join a linkshell or to group up with a few people attempting to tackle the same content they want should never be discouraged, but that's exactly what all this free stuff does. Why would someone bother improving their character and later helping a group tackle Tumult Curator, for example, if they got the drop they wanted from him in a goblin chest? Most people wouldn't and whether you see it or not it does indeed damage the game. That group looking for a WHM, PLD or what-have-you that was 1 player short of a UNM clear now goes without the experience because you already got what you wanted without putting forth any effort whatsoever. Now picture this happening hundreds of times each day across all servers and you start to see the toll it takes on the community.

This might also be a way to attract more casual players. I've seen a good share of those recently. I think it makes it more attractive for people who don't have the time to play hardcore anymore.

You could probably count the number of casual players it has attracted on one hand... with a severed finger. The game is just far more accessible today than it was years ago, that's the reason casual players decide to give the game a shot.

Pixela

04-17-2016, 09:42 PM

I agree. Login -> profit -> logout. It brings nothing to the community. In fact, any gear obtained by those goblins or even items obtained via login points detracts from the game because it means you aren't taking part in the content required to obtain it in the first place. I understand the idea behind it, but they took it way too far. There's no reason to be handing out end game gear just for logging in.

Not with that attitude they wouldn't. The game is easier than ever and asking people to join a linkshell or to group up with a few people attempting to tackle the same content they want should never be discouraged, but that's exactly what all this free stuff does. Why would someone bother improving their character and later helping a group tackle Tumult Curator, for example, if they got the drop they wanted from him in a goblin chest? Most people wouldn't and whether you see it or not it does indeed damage the game. That group looking for a WHM, PLD or what-have-you that was 1 player short of a UNM clear now goes without the experience because you already got what you wanted without putting forth any effort whatsoever. Now picture this happening hundreds of times each day across all servers and you start to see the toll it takes on the community.

You could probably count the number of casual players it has attracted on one hand... with a severed finger. The game is just far more accessible today than it was years ago, that's the reason casual players decide to give the game a shot.

I'll talk about this from my perspective, I don't have a shell and I play mostly solo with trusts or with one other friend now. I used to be incredibly hardcore into this game and did every single event this game had to offer in my hardcore endgame shell, then I quit to play other games and returned to have fun in XI a few years later. These days I just play casually to have fun, I've been playing now about 6 months since my return and I've had more fun playing like this than I ever did camping hnm, doing dynamis in alliances twice a week, doing limbus on cooldown, doing legion at 3 in the morning etc. The more casual and solo/duo friendly nature of the game made it fun instead of a chore all about grinding myself to death to get a .01% drop item, the login events are nice and give me a reason to login every single day even if I only have 2-3 hours to play.

I have 3 accounts, 2 of which have maxed out character slots purely for login events. I enjoy and look forward to these events because it gives me items I would normally not be able to get. Me getting these items has zero impact on you because I will never play with you or anyone like you, also if not for them I would cancel all my extra characters and possibly go play another mmo. If you think I'm alone in this then I invite you to stand next to the goblin npc and see just how many people check that goblin every day, they enjoy it.

Also having obtained some items from the boxes it encouraged me to actually try solo some of these monsters for other items and I've been killing them, the event not only gave me some freebies and lots of upgrade materials but also the push to try something I thought I could not do before.

The truth is that for serious players these free gifts are mostly useless, they already have all the items they want anyway. For everyone else it's an exciting gift they can get that makes them a little stronger and possibly less likely to be sneered at by other players if they want to join their groups (because the top players of this game are nowhere near as nice as some make them out to be, try join a VD ambuscade group and see how many laugh at you if your gear isn't amazing), also it encourages players to level other jobs if they get an awesome weapon / armor for a job they don't currently have.

In short, the developers know better than you do, they have the details of how many players did content before and after these events and how many check that goblin. If you don't like it then don't do it, the idea that if not for these freebies all the players would be doing these fights is laughable and shows how little you understand the playerbase of this game. Compare the unity pop areas months ago to now and you'll see no difference, same for escha areas. If you can do the endgame content you will do it because fighting the monsters > rolling a hundred faced dice to get the item you can use from a random event.

If you can do this content then you're going to do it irregardless of getting a few random freebies. I don't think you actually understand just how random these giveaways are, you are under the impression that you are guaranteed the drops you want or something. You have low chance of getting any good item at all, and even lower chance of it being one you can use and a hilariously small one of it being the exact one you need. You act like it's a given people are going to get the items they want.

Kincard

04-18-2016, 01:20 AM

The odds of you getting the chest you want, let alone a piece of armor you want (in some cases almost impossible to +1 through AH alone, since the assumption here is that you have no clear and thus can't just buy mats with Accolades) are pretty dismal. For players who actually do the content it's arguably not even worth the time to walk over to the Goblin and watch that annoying animation play out.

Diavolo

04-18-2016, 09:58 AM

The more casual and solo/duo friendly nature of the game made it fun instead of a chore all about grinding myself to death to get a .01% drop item, the login events are nice and give me a reason to login every single day even if I only have 2-3 hours to play.

The casual and solo/duo friendly nature of the game, by your own admission, is all the reason you need to login and play. If you need free stuff thrown at you to keep you logging in then the argument can be made the game isn't as fun as you make it out to be. It's all about the journey, not the goal, and that journey is completely removed when the goal is handed out simply for logging in.

I have 3 accounts, 2 of which have maxed out character slots purely for login events. I enjoy and look forward to these events because it gives me items I would normally not be able to get. Me getting these items has zero impact on you because I will never play with you or anyone like you,

1. That's a selfish view of the game. If you want an item and I am selling said item your being granted that item by a goblin chest does indeed have an impact on me. That's just basic supply and demand. We're playing on servers/worlds with thousands of other people, everything we do has an impact of some sort on the world around us and just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

2. Why wouldn't you play with me or anyone like me (whatever that means)?

also if not for them I would cancel all my extra characters and possibly go play another mmo. If you think I'm alone in this then I invite you to stand next to the goblin npc and see just how many people check that goblin every day, they enjoy it.

While I am of the opinion that handing out items and gear via the goblin chest has a negative impact on the game that doesn't mean I abstain from receiving my fair share of those rewards. I don't WANT to be given anything for free, I want to earn it, but let's be frank here, I'll spend the 10 seconds or so to check the goblin chest every time I login for my shot at millions of gil or useful piece of gear just like you.

Also having obtained some items from the boxes it encouraged me to actually try solo some of these monsters for other items and I've been killing them, the event not only gave me some freebies and lots of upgrade materials but also the push to try something I thought I could not do before.

That's not so much encouragement as it is a reminder that said content does indeed exist. You need only open up your Records of Eminence quest log for that.

Hypothetically speaking, getting a Jovian abjuration: body from the goblin wouldn't encourage me to go fight the monster that drops it - why spend millions on pop items or hours farming them when I already got what I wanted, so how exactly is my server/world better off in this case?

the idea that if not for these freebies all the players would be doing these fights is laughable and shows how little you understand the playerbase of this game.

The views I expressed in this thread are mine and mine alone, I don't understand why you would think otherwise. Unless I'm mistaken, none of us here are officially representing larger groups of players. :p

Crica

04-18-2016, 02:00 PM

The casual and solo/duo friendly nature of the game, by your own admission, is all the reason you need to login and play. If you need free stuff thrown at you to keep you logging in then the argument can be made the game isn't as fun as you make it out to be. It's all about the journey, not the goal, and that journey is completely removed when the goal is handed out simply for logging in.

1. That's a selfish view of the game. If you want an item and I am selling said item your being granted that item by a goblin chest does indeed have an impact on me. That's just basic supply and demand. We're playing on servers/worlds with thousands of other people, everything we do has an impact of some sort on the world around us and just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

2. Why wouldn't you play with me or anyone like me (whatever that means)?

While I am of the opinion that handing out items and gear via the goblin chest has a negative impact on the game that doesn't mean I abstain from receiving my fair share of those rewards. I don't WANT to be given anything for free, I want to earn it, but let's be frank here, I'll spend the 10 seconds or so to check the goblin chest every time I login for my shot at millions of gil or useful piece of gear just like you.

That's not so much encouragement as it is a reminder that said content does indeed exist. You need only open up your Records of Eminence quest log for that.

Hypothetically speaking, getting a Jovian abjuration: body from the goblin wouldn't encourage me to go fight the monster that drops it - why spend millions on pop items or hours farming them when I already got what I wanted, so how exactly is my server/world better off in this case?

The views I expressed in this thread are mine and mine alone, I don't understand why you would think otherwise. Unless I'm mistaken, none of us here are officially representing larger groups of players. :p

there are many players out there that would never play with you or ppl like you because they are not social players - they are solo players - i am one of those players

i have zero interest in the small talk it takes to even begin playing with social players, let alone the patience it takes to either wait for them to learn what i do or me learn what they do so we can begin playing together

even if the "free handouts" were not a part of the game anymore, solo players would STILL not play with social players, so i don't agree that removing them from the game would do anything other then make sure that solo players have LESS reason to log in

why would they have less reason to log in? because the entire game is NOT solo friendly without a few powerups along the way, powerups that just are not able to be gotten via solo play

and if its hurting social players to have a few items handed to them for free once in a while, then that is their own lack of self control that is the issue, imo

Diavolo

04-18-2016, 06:04 PM

why would they have less reason to log in? because the entire game is NOT solo friendly without a few powerups along the way, powerups that just are not able to be gotten via solo play

You consider the goblin chest a "power up"?

The game is solo friendly, no "power ups" needed. I completed Rhapsodies of Vana'diel solo last November with one of my mules using ilevel 118 gear purchased from the AH.

Wouldn't you be more satisfied taking down an NM for your gear rather than having it given to you?

Pixela

04-18-2016, 06:24 PM

Oh...I understand now, you're a merc aren't you Diavolo?

Makes perfect sense now.

Stompa

04-18-2016, 07:16 PM

If you want an item and I am selling said item your being granted that item by a goblin chest does indeed have an impact on me. That's just basic supply and demand. We're playing on servers/worlds with thousands of other people, everything we do has an impact of some sort on the world around us and just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

We have 250 people on my server sometimes, including mules, AFK ppl, etc.

Your idea that free stuff from the Gobby box will somehow affect the economy or the AH or events, is maybe true on very busy hi-pop servers. On quiet servers, it is almost impossible to sell anything, so it doesn't matter if people are getting things from Gobby dials or logins. The sales rate is flat as a pancake anyway.

I actually agree with you in principle, people should team up and defeat NMs together, and it is true that you feel a better sense of accomplishment if you defeat a strong monster to get gear, than if you just click on a Gobby box. Also it is memories for the rest of your life, the time you and some friends pulled off a surprising win against a formidable foe, and you got a cool item you wanted. Those are indeed the greatest memories.

The Dev Team are working super-hard and pouring so much enthusiasm into their creative process, to try and make the game as much fun as possible for everyone. I can see this every time I visit this POL website, the Dev Team announcements are always filled with enthusiasm and hope, the Dev Team are doing everything they can think of to keep this game enticing for new and old players.

Having special login items, Gobby dials, and bonus events, this is the Dev team working very hard to try and make new and old players happy.

So a few years ago I put my principles on the shelf. Now I'm just so thankful every single day, FFXI is still online, I can still visit Vana'diel, still see my Tarutaru and my Automaton. I'm SO HAPPY that the game is still online.

And it is so obvious to me that the Dev Team love Vana'diel so much too, and they are trying very hard to add fun mini-events and novelty dials, and they've added so many improved game features, to add extra layers of fun and novelty to adventuring, for beginners and veterans alike.

Diavolo

04-19-2016, 06:07 AM

Oh...I understand now, you're a merc aren't you Diavolo?

Makes perfect sense now.

The sense of disdain is almost palpable, but no, I am not. I played as such years ago and was a HNMLS leader for a couple of years, so I'm very familiar with the territory. Some of those "merc" players have become the most active and helpful members of the community, contributing both in game and on FFXI websites to help players such as yourself, so you may want to reconsider your position.

We have 250 people on my server sometimes, including mules, AFK ppl, etc.

Your idea that free stuff from the Gobby box will somehow affect the economy or the AH or events, is maybe true on very busy hi-pop servers. On quiet servers, it is almost impossible to sell anything, so it doesn't matter if people are getting things from Gobby dials or logins. The sales rate is flat as a pancake anyway.

Well, when I said we were playing on servers with thousands of people I was speaking about active subscribers, not simultaneous users, because the world and its economy keeps trucking along even when we're not there to take part in it, even on ghost town servers like the ones you and I play on. If a casual player spends all day farming content he or she finds difficult and only walks away with 1 or 2 items of value then has trouble selling said items because people like me are making the most of the goblin chests and login points then it's safe to assume that casual player will be less likely to go back and spend their time with that content again.

The fact that it's become so difficult to sell items on the AH is one of those factors that pushed me to start posting here, in a thread about server merges, knowing that the dev team at least monitors this forum. Unfortunately, it seems the vocal minority here is made up mostly of those completely against the idea of merging servers (or playing with others at all) and trying to convince my peers/friends to take part in the discussions here on the official forums is like trying to tell a cat to sit or roll over.

I actually agree with you in principle, people should team up and defeat NMs together, and it is true that you feel a better sense of accomplishment if you defeat a strong monster to get gear, than if you just click on a Gobby box. Also it is memories for the rest of your life, the time you and some friends pulled off a surprising win against a formidable foe, and you got a cool item you wanted. Those are indeed the greatest memories.

The Dev Team are working super-hard and pouring so much enthusiasm into their creative process, to try and make the game as much fun as possible for everyone. I can see this every time I visit this POL website, the Dev Team announcements are always filled with enthusiasm and hope, the Dev Team are doing everything they can think of to keep this game enticing for new and old players.

Having special login items, Gobby dials, and bonus events, this is the Dev team working very hard to try and make new and old players happy.

So a few years ago I put my principles on the shelf. Now I'm just so thankful every single day, FFXI is still online, I can still visit Vana'diel, still see my Tarutaru and my Automaton. I'm SO HAPPY that the game is still online.

And it is so obvious to me that the Dev Team love Vana'diel so much too, and they are trying very hard to add fun mini-events and novelty dials, and they've added so many improved game features, to add extra layers of fun and novelty to adventuring, for beginners and veterans alike.

I'm not against the idea of giving casual players a little extra incentive, I just wish it wasn't devaluing the game in the process by handing out end game rewards. They should have left it to stuff like trusts, mounts, food, costumes, fireworks and that sort of stuff - a mix of helpful and playful.

Despite being on a small server, I've been part of a rather large LS (sometimes 50+ members online at the same time) and seen a great many of those end game rewards given to players via goblin chest. On the one hand I'm happy they have that gear to make their jobs easier, but on the other hand I know it means they'll be spending less time with that end game content now, which effectively shortens its lifespan. Why, all so someone that doesn't even care about the end game scene can feel good about themselves for a few minutes? Could have triggered that release of dopamine in other ways.

I guess when all is said and done I want to die as I lived and, perhaps selfishly, I wish the dev team felt the same way about their game. FFXIV already did a great job of attracting the more casual, mainstream audience like World of Warcraft did, no need for them to continue shaping FFXI in WoW's image, too.

Pixela

04-19-2016, 06:29 AM

The sense of disdain is almost palpable, but no, I am not. I played as such years ago and was a HNMLS leader for a couple of years, so I'm very familiar with the territory. Some of those "merc" players have become the most active and helpful members of the community, contributing both in game and on FFXI websites to help players such as yourself, so you may want to reconsider your position.

The disdain is well earned, I was in a few of the merc hnmls back in the day. I know what they did and why, none of it was "for the community" quite the opposite.

Anyway, they aren't going to change it for one simple reason, profitability. Login events for ffxi are the retainers of ffxiv.

Stompa

04-19-2016, 07:00 AM

I guess when all is said and done I want to die as I lived and, perhaps selfishly, I wish the dev team felt the same way about their game. FFXIV already did a great job of attracting the more casual, mainstream audience like World of Warcraft did, no need for them to continue shaping FFXI in WoW's image, too.

I don't think that login campaigns and Gobby dials are anything to do with FFXIV or WOW. These things, and many others, are a response to the User Feedback from FFXI players right here on this FFXI Forum.

I will join /shout groups for fun, not for gear. I will kill Mission bosses just to help people, even though I have wins. I am not alone. Many people will join shouts for endgame content, because they like to play the game, and gear is nice but not the sole reason. On quiet low-pop servers, there are not many shouts, and uptake from shouts is very slow. I would suggest that this is the problem, and not the evil free stuffs login points and Gobby dials.

:)

Diavolo

04-19-2016, 12:07 PM

I don't think that login campaigns and Gobby dials are anything to do with FFXIV or WOW. These things, and many others, are a response to the User Feedback from FFXI players right here on this FFXI Forum.

The problem is that they're only using feedback from a tiny fraction of the players if/when they do that and there's no way of knowing how well those posting on this forum represent the general population. You won't catch me speaking on behalf of others, claiming that a large number of players agree with me in order to sway an argument one way or another because there's simply no way to validate such claims. My mistake (and theirs) is not taking part in the discussions here sooner.

I will join /shout groups for fun, not for gear. I will kill Mission bosses just to help people, even though I have wins. I am not alone. Many people will join shouts for endgame content, because they like to play the game, and gear is nice but not the sole reason. On quiet low-pop servers, there are not many shouts, and uptake from shouts is very slow. I would suggest that this is the problem, and not the evil free stuffs login points and Gobby dials.

That is indeed a problem and I've made my opinion known in the last server merge thread that came up.

Angemon

04-19-2016, 12:48 PM

I agree with you Diavolo

Stompa

04-20-2016, 07:47 AM

The problem is that they're only using feedback from a tiny fraction of the players if/when they do that and there's no way of knowing how well those posting on this forum represent the general population. You won't catch me speaking on behalf of others, claiming that a large number of players agree with me in order to sway an argument one way or another because there's simply no way to validate such claims. My mistake (and theirs) is not taking part in the discussions here sooner.

That is indeed a problem and I've made my opinion known in the last server merge thread that came up.

Well, as I see it there are two main points here really.

You don't like UNM Dial, because you feel that it will damage the Unity system, in that you will be shouting for a UNM and you need a WHM, and the WHM will not join because they got all their UNM stuff from the Gobby Dial.

I think this is very unlikely. Number one, most people will prefer to use Linkshell members, as they know they can trust those players more than random PUG players. Number two, the WHM or w/e job you are shouting for, has to be online when you are shouting, they can't be doing other events like Ambuscade etc. They have to be online, and free, and wanting to farm that specific UNM. And for your theory to work, that person also has to have obtained the drops from that UNM already, via Gobby Box. I would describe the odds of this situation occurring as microscopic. The odds of it happening so often that it affects the UNM system, are basically too small to even compute. Especially as the Gobby Dial seems to give random junk instead of gear, around 99% of the time. I still haven't got a single piece of gear from the UNM dial after many attempts.

The second point is that you have to balance the Pros and Cons. The Cons I have detailed above, are incredibly tiny and unlikely. The Pros of having "fun mini-games and timed events with random lucky stuff" are that MANY people really enjoy that kind of fun. People even pay $$$ for extra content IDs, just to do Login Points and to spin the Gobby Dials. People enjoy it. People pay extra subs for it. Paying extra subs keeps the game online.

I think complaining about things that other people enjoy, and they are paying subs for it, is actually missing the big picture, which is that the game needs all the subs it can get, and SE are adding fun mini-game / event content because they know that a lot of people enjoy that kind of stuff. I think it is good that people enjoy FFXI, and pay subs. Anything else is just opinions, opinions which would mean nothing at all if the game was offline due to lack of subs.

:cool:

Cabalabob

04-20-2016, 09:18 AM

It made me look up unity wanted NMs cause I didn't know what they were so, raises awareness of the content I guess. If you get a NQ piece you'll still have to fight the NM to upgrade it.

Diavolo

04-20-2016, 02:57 PM

You don't like UNM Dial, because you feel that it will damage the Unity system, in that you will be shouting for a UNM and you need a WHM, and the WHM will not join because they got all their UNM stuff from the Gobby Dial.

My feelings towards the free hand-outs extends to quality of rewards from the special dial as well as all the campaign-specific dials such as the UNM one currently in play and no, it's not about people getting "all their UNM stuff from the Gobby Dial", it's getting anything at all from it. It all has an impact, be it positive or negative, to some degree and that is the case with each and every coffer popped everyday. The AH suddenly has more UNM items available and players now have access to more of their gear, NQ and HQ alike, all of that without a single second spent taking part in Unity Wanted Battles at all. Going a step further, you have to consider the effect it has on player interaction, both with others in the game and the content itself. Casual players like Cabalabob who don't pay much attention to RoE may pop the chest and think "Oh wow, where's this come from?" then proceed to attempt the battle on their own or with LS mates/friends/PUGs in order to get gear or items to +1 whatever they got. Raising awareness is always a positive.

It goes the other way, too, of course. For example, those few Celine Vines that might have kept you fighting the UNM til you got enough to +1 your gear will now have you leaving the fight early, not enjoying that final fight that will be remembered for the WHM that solo'd it at 1%. Those few Sarama hides you got from the dial and you sold on the AH will now be bought by a BLU so he can +1 the Tanmogayi he got from his daily dial, making him decide against taking part in a late night Sarama run with his LS mates because he already got what he considered its best drop, in turn denying him access to the Tumult Curator fight they'd spontaneously decide to do one night down the road. Basically, the butterfly effect.

The second point is that you have to balance the Pros and Cons. The Cons I have detailed above, are incredibly tiny and unlikely. The Pros of having "fun mini-games and timed events with random lucky stuff" are that MANY people really enjoy that kind of fun. People even pay $$$ for extra content IDs, just to do Login Points and to spin the Gobby Dials. People enjoy it. People pay extra subs for it. Paying extra subs keeps the game online.

The goblin dials aren't mini games at all, they're simply a brief menu of options. While receiving nice gear is something that might bring you joy, I'm not sure how you find navigating said menu to be fun. :p

Again, I have nothing against those goblin chests, but I do wish they weren't handing out stuff we should ideally all be out there playing to get a hold of. I thought Escha/Reis made for a nice return to more old school battlegrounds with content rising in difficulty as you progressed through the ranks... then a lot of those drops got handed to us for free via goblin dials. Was that really necessary to keep the more casual among us interested in logging in? I'm quite certain they'd have been just as happy with other rewards.

Also, I find the claim that people are paying $13/month or more for content IDs solely to roll the dice at the goblin dials you yourself claim give random junk 99% of the time a bit much. Lots of people pay for multiple accounts, myself included, but since the goblin dials and login points started I have yet to come across a single person claiming that was the reason they were doing it. Does anyone here do that?

I think complaining about things that other people enjoy, and they are paying subs for it, is actually missing the big picture, which is that the game needs all the subs it can get, and SE are adding fun mini-game / event content because they know that a lot of people enjoy that kind of stuff. I think it is good that people enjoy FFXI, and pay subs. Anything else is just opinions, opinions which would mean nothing at all if the game was offline due to lack of subs.

If you are paying $13/month to roll the dice on gear from the goblin dial and enjoy it, that's fine. As you know, I'm all for providing options. If you believe charging people $13/month to roll the dice at the goblin dial is a good way to encourage people to return/subscribe to a long running MMORPG like Final Fantasy XI then I will vehemently disagree.

It made me look up unity wanted NMs cause I didn't know what they were so, raises awareness of the content I guess. If you get a NQ piece you'll still have to fight the NM to upgrade it.

You're right about raising awareness, I suppose. You can upgrade the gear simply by buying the materials from the AH/bazaars, though.

Pixela

04-20-2016, 05:06 PM

Also, I find the claim that people are paying $13/month or more for content IDs solely to roll the dice at the goblin dials you yourself claim give random junk 99% of the time a bit much. Lots of people pay for multiple accounts, myself included, but since the goblin dials and login points started I have yet to come across a single person claiming that was the reason they were doing it. Does anyone here do that?

If you are paying $13/month to roll the dice on gear from the goblin dial and enjoy it, that's fine. As you know, I'm all for providing options. If you believe charging people $13/month to roll the dice at the goblin dial is a good way to encourage people to return/subscribe to a long running MMORPG like Final Fantasy XI then I will vehemently disagree.

I do just that, as I've already said. I have capped character slots for these events, I enjoy doing them every day as a chance to scratch that lottery card to get something nice. I also know that a ton of other people do the same on Asura, I know because there is an army of level 1 characters with ?? next to their name checking that box every day. It's a zerg rush at jp midnight.

The gobbie boxes are a great addition, I'm really glad they added it and I can genuinely say that I probably would of left and gone back to one of my other mmorpg titles by now if not for the few nice items I have obtained from them, mainly because they gave me a nice item at a point when I was bored and had nothing I could do because my gear isn't good enough and the "community" sucks. They do the most important thing they were added to do, give casual players an incentive to log-in every day. For an mmo the main way you keep people playing is to keep them coming every day to keep the addiction in check, when people start skipping days they start losing the addiction.

I've played a lot of these games and most of them have some system that makes you log-in every day, this is the one FFXI chose.

If you don't like it then that's fine, you don't have to do it. You lose nothing from not doing it because you can get whatever you want anyway, it's not really for you as such because you're already heavily invested and here to stay. You have reason enough to log-in, you have the ffxi world as your oyster.

End of the day, you are a player telling the devs you don't like an incredibly popular piece of content. These are people that have all the server logs of everything, this is their job and you're back seat driving telling them that all these players who enjoy it are wrong and they should remove it because you know better than them.

Diavolo

04-20-2016, 06:51 PM

I do just that, as I've already said. I have capped character slots for these events, I enjoy doing them every day as a chance to scratch that lottery card to get something nice. I also know that a ton of other people do the same on Asura, I know because there is an army of level 1 characters with ?? next to their name checking that box every day. It's a zerg rush at jp midnight.

You pay for 33 characters or more across 3 content IDs, spend time logging into all of them daily for login points/Goblin chests, and you know for a fact there are lots of other people on Asura doing the same? You've painted quite a picture here when paired with the comments about your unwillingness to play with others (save for a friend).

Asura is still an active server and you likely already know like-minded individuals there, some of whom probably also post here. I don't see why you couldn't obtain all the gear you've already received from the goblin chests and far more teaming up with a few other people in a social setting. I mean, you're likely spending an hour everyday just cycling through all your characters.

The gobbie boxes are a great addition, I'm really glad they added it and I can genuinely say that I probably would of left and gone back to one of my other mmorpg titles by now if not for the few nice items I have obtained from them, mainly because they gave me a nice item at a point when I was bored and had nothing I could do because my gear isn't good enough and the "community" sucks....says the person that doesn't play with others?

FFXI has a strong community to this day, even on the smaller servers. My time on Asura was limited, but I accomplished a great deal in a very short amount of time with people I had only just come to meet there. I'd have made it my permanent home if not for some good friends and longtime acquaintances still playing on Cerberus. Their interest in the game has sharply declined as of late, so maybe I'll see you soon enough. ;)

If you don't like it then that's fine, you don't have to do it. You lose nothing from not doing it because you can get whatever you want anyway, it's not really for you as such because you're already heavily invested and here to stay. You have reason enough to log-in, you have the ffxi world as your oyster.We all do. Take advantage of it.

End of the day, you are a player telling the devs you don't like an incredibly popular piece of content. These are people that have all the server logs of everything, this is their job and you're back seat driving telling them that all these players who enjoy it are wrong and they should remove it because you know better than them.

While I think you may be overestimating the development team's understanding of the day to day workings of their worlds, that's not quite what I've been saying.

Diavolo

04-20-2016, 07:01 PM

I disagree with you that it is anyone's business if Person X really enjoys Logins and Gobby Dials. It is nobody else's business! It really doesn't affect the economy, or LS events, or anything. The effects are tiny. Nobody is stopping you from fighting Tumult with your LS mates. I think it is a bit wrong for you to say that some person who enjoys spinning Gobby Dials and doing Login Events is going to destroy your LS Tumult Event by somehow undermining the marketplace and making LS members unwilling to join in. I would say that is ridiculous!

It can and does affect the economy, event participation and such, to wildly varying degrees. Hand a crafter a Kupo Shield and see what that does to cursed gear prices on your server.

Angemon

04-21-2016, 12:37 AM

Pixela

04-21-2016, 12:57 AM

I gotta be honest in that I've lost interest arguing with you in this pointless back and fourth, I simply wanted to point out that a large part of why I play are these log-in events (since you asked) and they are the reason I pay +$20 to $30 more than I would normally pay on a monthly basis.

Hopefully next months will be event better, more AB# keys would be great. Jovian body I got last month made me really happy.

Pixela

04-21-2016, 01:02 AM

All of the UNM materials have crashed hard in price, so it does effect the economy. Look at that person who spends a lot of RL money and time with all those mules just to do this campaign lol. I can't believe people would do that just for UNM, you realize how easy to kill most of these are? The only hard one is the PW2 and he can be beaten with a party of 6~8 well geared players. The drops aren't even the best anyway.

The prices will go back up in a month after the event ends, go do voidwatch and farm pouches maybe?

It's money well spent to me honestly, I enjoy it greatly. You play the game how you want to play it and I'll play it how I want to. If that bothers you, sad day for you.

Olor

04-21-2016, 02:47 AM

I love the campaigns they definitely keep me subbed when I would otherwise let it drop.

detlef

04-21-2016, 02:57 AM

Do people do Unity for gil? Is that really something we have to worry about?

Olor

04-21-2016, 03:00 AM

Do people do Unity for gil? Is that really something we have to worry about?

If they did, you'd expect more people to do unity.

I am actually excited to see if some of the mats I need to upgrade an item I got from the gobbie box are now available for sale... since it was an NM that only drops generally meh items and is a cactaur which, lol, ain't nobody got time for that.

Pixela

04-21-2016, 03:56 AM

Do people do Unity for gil? Is that really something we have to worry about?

Yeah but there are far better ways to make gil, not sure why anyone would bother doing it for gil outside of double drop.

Diavolo

04-21-2016, 06:12 AM

Most of you are missing the point - you're arguing that it doesn't matter if we get free UNM items everyday because they aren't a big part of the economy. Well, at what point do you stop and say "Ok, that IS a big part of the economy" and maybe we shouldn't be getting it for free? Escha abjurations are a big part of the game. Cursed gear is a big part of the game. Yet here we are getting even the nicest of that gear given to us on a silver platter and you don't think it has an impact? Ok, so why not just have an R/E/M/A dial next month where we run the chance of getting completed weapons? If end game gear doesn't have an impact on the economy and the game as a whole then I don't see how the weapons will either.

I mean, really...

Olor

04-21-2016, 06:46 AM

It has an impact, what people are disputing is your assertion that it's a negative impact. People have said above that one of the things that keeps them playing is the dial. This is *good* for the economy.

When I got a jugo kukri from the gobbie box I went and bought all the items to upgrade it from the AH. That's *good* for the in-game economy. I would have bought nothing otherwise.

It's also clearly increased the supply of 1-75 equipment on the AH. Anytime I get some bizarro gear and go to put it on the AH there has almost always been one put up already. That's good, it means people are participating in the economy.

Obviously you're meaning to be ridiculous with your REMA dial idea up there, but as long as they weren't completely finished it would probably increase economic activity in game because more people would want to buy the currencies/items they needed to finish those items. There are actually a lot of players that entirely forego making super weapons because they are so hard to make so... yeah, making them easier would probably increase the people doing it, at least for some time.

At any rate no one is suggesting they put superweapons on the gobbie dial (obviously) - but for causal players the gobbie dial is something that keeps people playing and paying for the game. Maybe they aren't playing it the way you'd like them to, but that doesn't mean their money isn't worth the same amount to SE.

Diavolo

04-21-2016, 07:49 AM

Obviously you're meaning to be ridiculous with your REMA dial idea up there

No more or less ridiculous than receiving top tier abjurations, cursed gear and UNM weapons/gear. We already get the currency given to us via goblin chests.

Serious question: at what point do you consider the rewards too much?

detlef

04-21-2016, 08:15 AM

Shirai

04-21-2016, 04:22 PM

No more or less ridiculous than receiving top tier abjurations, cursed gear and UNM weapons/gear. We already get the currency given to us via goblin chests.

Serious question: at what point do you consider the rewards too much?

As long as it stays a gamble it's all the same to me. Your chances of actually recieving something good are pretty slim as it is.
The Unity thing is a double roulette already, you're not getting the gear/items directly from the gob but a reward chest, which may contain a high level item but usually contains crap.
As for the abjuration dial; Even if you get a top tier abjuration you'll still have to buy the cursed item and most of the time the gob'll hand you worthless level 75 era abjurations to use as toilet wipes.

I'll probably go "Hold on, wait a second" once moogles and goblins start handing out free R/E/M weapons, or when you can use that dial more than once a day per character.

Diavolo

04-21-2016, 07:46 PM

Stompa

04-21-2016, 08:11 PM

That doesn't quite answer the question, Stompa.

Some players spent months farming the items we're getting for free from the gobbie dials. Given your words about handing out RMEs, would you think it was safe to assume those players aren't happy either?

I camped Spurrer Beret NM from 2009 to 2012. It dropped at 1/500~ after three years of soloing that angry fungaloid and kiting it up and down the tunnels on my PUP. I was so proud of my Spurrer Beret.

Spurrer Beret drops all the time from Gobby Special dial now, and I believe it was added to one of the seasonal costume events too.

Do I complain about this? No! I don't care at all. I enjoyed the solo battles. And this is my point. If I heard you shouting for Unity or Escha/Reisen NMs, I would join you even if I had the gear. Because I like to play the game. I like to battle mobs. I join events just for the thrills and the triumphant win feels.

Similarly, you mentioned earlier how LS members won't join LS events because they already have gear. What kind of LS member is that? When I was on a busy and high-quality Linkshell, if they did an event that meant I was doing the event too. If I had the gear, it did not matter. If I was getting any treasure, it did not matter.

I was very proud to be on the LS, and very happy to support all of their events whenever I was online. That is what a good LS should be. You are part of a team, you are proud to be part of that team, and you will do events because of loyalty to your LS friends, not because you don't have the gear already.

RME is different, because people who spent seven years building a Mythic, were doing nothing else. No fishing, no crafting. Just working on that Mythic constantly for many years. This is completely different to doing casual LS events for a month, or camping a stubborn funguar NM for a few hours a week for three years lol.

RME required 100% devotion, at the expense of everything else in the game. It was completely tunnel-vision "no time to talk!" busy busy busy. This is unlike anything else in the game.
:rolleyes:

Shirai

04-21-2016, 08:19 PM

As far as I am reading the things you post, you seem to be under the assumption that noone has to do content anymore because you can get whatever you desire by speaking to the goblins.
Far from it, the chance of getting something nice is incredibly small and getting the exact item you want is less than 1%.
It's really not the magical bacon button you make it out to be.

Diavolo

04-21-2016, 08:37 PM

I camped Spurrer Beret NM from 2009 to 2012. It dropped at 1/500~ after three years of soloing that angry fungaloid and kiting it up and down the tunnels on my PUP. I was so proud of my Spurrer Beret.

Spurrer Beret drops all the time from Gobby Special dial now, and I believe it was added to one of the seasonal costume events too.

Do I complain about this? No! I don't care at all. I enjoyed the solo battles. And this is my point.

I often did Dynamis twice a week, almost every week from 2004 to 2008 with my linkshells. It took countless runs and lord only knows how much lost EXP before I had my first full relic gear set, Shadow Mantle and Shadow Ring. Much currency was farmed and I eventually got an Aegis and Excalibur out of it all. I was so proud of the progress my linkshells made.

That relic gear, Shadow Ring, Shadow Mantle and Dynamis currency drops all the time from Gobby Special Dial now and the currency even washes ashore on Mog Gardens.

Do I complain about this? No! I don't care at all. I enjoyed the battles. And this is my point - let's just add a REM Dial!

;)

RME required 100% devotion, at the expense of everything else in the game. It was completely tunnel-vision "no time to talk!" busy busy busy. This is unlike anything else in the game.No, it doesn't. You can spend seven years casually working your way to an RME or you can be 100% devoted to it over the course of weeks/months. No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to work on an RME weapon when you logon. I actually have several of them in the works, no rush to complete any of them.

But again, I am curious - at what point do you think the gear/items coming from the goblin chests are too much? Is everything up to fully upgraded RME weapons where you draw the line?

Stompa

04-21-2016, 09:31 PM

I often did Dynamis twice a week, almost every week from 2004 to 2008 with my linkshells. It took countless runs and lord only knows how much lost EXP before I had my first full relic gear set, Shadow Mantle and Shadow Ring. Much currency was farmed and I eventually got an Aegis and Excalibur out of it all. I was so proud of the progress my linkshells made.

That relic gear, Shadow Ring, Shadow Mantle and Dynamis currency drops all the time from Gobby Special Dial now and the currency even washes ashore on Mog Gardens.

Do I complain about this? No! I don't care at all. I enjoyed the battles. And this is my point - let's just add a REM Dial!

;)

No, it doesn't. You can spend seven years casually working your way to an RME or you can be 100% devoted to it over the course of weeks/months. No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to work on an RME weapon when you logon. I actually have several of them in the works, no rush to complete any of them.

But again, I am curious - at what point do you think the gear/items coming from the goblin chests are too much? Is everything up to fully upgraded RME weapons where you draw the line?

On the "7 years or a few months depending on effort" [paraphrased] you know that is not true at all. It took him seven years to build a Mythic, on level 75 and eventually lvl 99. With all the gating restrictions etc. in that era too. He put in 100% effort, despite being a parent with a full-time job, he spent all of his free non-parenting non-working time on his Mythic.

Today you can of course build a RME much easier. Mainly because of ilvl, and the easing of gating restrictions. So you are correct that if a person takes months or years building RME today, is related to effort. But it is not true of building a Mythic in the 2006-2012 years.

I farmed 1500 HMP for my first Empy, it took me almost three years of migraine War procs with a dozen weapon types lol. Do I complain when people get free HMP in Ambuscade or Gobby boxes? No. I hope it makes them happy.

You are joking obviously when you say "there is currency washing ashore so lets give away free RME weapons in Gobby dials" [paraphrased]. You know as well as I do that farming a RME involves a lot of effort, many thousands of currency items. The occasional free piece of currency is just a lucky bonus, it is a drop in the ocean compared to the full required amount of currency.

The ilvl issue keeps coming up, because if we are honest, ilvl made RME soloable. But ilvl is also relevant to things like Spurrer Berets etc. In 2013, I discovered that overnight my Spurrer Beret had gone from being "very nice!" to being "useless junk" because ilvl had arrived and scorched earth on everything from the old game. I had loads of nice lvl 75-99 stuff, which became obsolete overnight. I was actually quite /sadface about that.

Also I farmed 30~ lvl 99 Magian Weapons, including the 6000~ mob kills trials. 6000~ mobs was a lot of kills at lvl 99 without trusts or ilvl, it was very very slow work. All those Magian Weapons also became total junk overnight, when ilvl arrived. "Occasionally attacks 2-4 times" became "always misses 1-4 times!"

So what I'm saying is that many of us have farmed intensively for gear, pre ilvl, and seen it reduced to worthless junk overnight. That is why I can't join you in a big QQ session, just because some Abjurations or Unity weapons that took you a few weeks to farm, have dropped randomly to other players in lucky (and unusual) Gobby dial rolls.

Your Abjuration gear is still 119 lvl, still useful. Why should you feel sad that other people got this gear by being lucky. My Moghouse is full of Magians like WSDMG+10%, Occasionally-attacks-2-to-4-times Magian weapons that I worked really hard for, and can never use at all in any current game content. I should be upset about that but I'm not really.

I would rather have my Magians drop from Gobby Dial, as 119 versions, because that would mean that I too could finish building my Magians to 119. And I would be happy that I had those 119 items, and not being upset that some lucky people got them for free from a lucky Gobby moment.

But again, RME is a huge time-sink. It is not in the same category effort-wise as Unity NM drops, or Abjurations, or Magians - even though some of the Magians took ages to finish. RME is a legendary weapon with a legendary amount of effort involved. That is why they don't drop from Gobby boxes.

:cool:

Fae

04-22-2016, 04:41 AM

I honestly forget to do it most the time b/c things so luck based seem a waste of time to me :( [In regards to dials]

Diavolo

04-22-2016, 05:02 AM

You are joking obviously when you say "there is currency washing ashore so lets give away free RME weapons in Gobby dials" [paraphrased]. You know as well as I do that farming a RME involves a lot of effort, many thousands of currency items.

Of course I was joking about the RME Gobby dial, it was a play on your words to show you how your argument in favor of all these freebies can be applied to RME.

And no, farming RME does not involve a lot of effort, not for everyone - they can be bought. How or where the players get that gil is another story and of no consequence to the topic at hand, but someone with 33+ characters can easily accumulate that gil just by logging in once a day. ;)

So what I'm saying is that many of us have farmed intensively for gear, pre ilvl, and seen it reduced to worthless junk overnight. That is why I can't join you in a big QQ session because some Abjurations or Unity weapons that took you a few weeks to farm, have dropped randomly to other players in lucky (and unusual) Gobby dial rolls.

You are choosing to focus on something that isn't there. There is no point mourning the loss of outdated gear and unless I was possessed while typing up a response I don't think I so much as implied that here.

I'm against the idea of giving away what can be considered end game gear, namely Escha and UNM stuff, because we should all be playing to earn that gear, and when I say playing I don't mean scrolling down a list of goblin dials. The more of that gear and those items that people are receiving as freebies the less time we are collectively spending towards having fun earning it, whether in parties or solo. Why spend the time crafting new zones and new content for us to take part in if we're just going to sit in town and open goblin chests that hand us rewards from those very zones?

Yes, as noted in this thread, some people will be made more aware of UNM gear they didn't know existed and spend time going to take part in that content, but let's be honest here, the number of people who didn't already know Unity Wanted Battles existed are either completely anti-social and/or spend a very little amount of time actually playing - there aren't too many of them. If awareness is an issue, why isn't the game doing more to direct new players to Records of Eminence?

Your Abjuration gear is still 119 lvl, still useful. Why should you feel sad that other people got this gear by being lucky.

I don't - see the 13th post in this thread - it's about these gifts taking away from the game and the time we spend with it. If, like Pixela, you are of the opinion that spending over an hour a day opening goblin chests is more fun to you than actually stepping out of town and playing the game then something is wrong.

detlef

04-22-2016, 06:03 AM

I don't - see the 13th post in this thread - it's about these gifts taking away from the game and the time we spend with it. If, like Pixela, you are of the opinion that spending over an hour a day opening goblin chests is more fun to you than actually stepping out of town and playing the game then something is wrong.If you have a limited amount of time to play, an argument can be made that your time probably is best spent conversing with the daily reward NPC. Almost anything else you do in-game will still be there tomorrow and the day after. But your daily reward can only be obtained on that day. Limited-time availability is one of the primary reasons Ambuscade was so overcrowded. And the reason why weekly and monthly campaigns have such a significant effect on what we choose to do on a given day.

Besides, people like getting free stuff that has a small chance of being good. You mean to tell me that you've never gotten excited for a Mog Bonanza? For a lot of people the anticipation of a possible reward is pleasurable. Having something lucky happen to you feels great, regardless of whether you "earned" it. You might be the abnormal one here.

Olor

04-22-2016, 06:20 AM

Besides, people like getting free stuff that has a small chance of being good. You mean to tell me that you've never gotten excited for a Mog Bonanza? For a lot of people the anticipation of a possible reward is pleasurable. Having something lucky happen to you feels great, regardless of whether you "earned" it. You might be the abnormal one here.

This guy acts like if he found a twenty dollar bill he'd throw it in the garbage because he didn't earn it.

The rest of us are going to smile and buy a friend pizza and beer.

Pixela

04-22-2016, 06:57 AM

That doesn't quite answer the question, Stompa.

Some players spent months farming the items we're getting for free from the gobbie dials. Given your words about handing out RMEs, would you think it was safe to assume those players aren't happy either?

I spent 12 months making my relic back when you did Dynamis in alliances twice a week and you had to sponsor runs, now you can solo them in a week. Things change, deal with it and stop worrying about others and worry about yourself. If you play this game for prestige then you're about 5 years out of date.

This isn't even anything new, I really don't get the complaining. Did you also hate the mog lottery that gave you 100 million gil 4 years ago?

There is no reason at all why it's bad, it's great and I hope they keep doing it.

Diavolo

04-22-2016, 07:51 AM

If you have a limited amount of time to play, an argument can be made that your time probably is best spent conversing with the daily reward NPC. Almost anything else you do in-game will still be there tomorrow and the day after. But your daily reward can only be obtained on that day. Limited-time availability is one of the primary reasons Ambuscade was so overcrowded. And the reason why weekly and monthly campaigns have such a significant effect on what we choose to do on a given day.

Besides, people like getting free stuff that has a small chance of being good. You mean to tell me that you've never gotten excited for a Mog Bonanza? For a lot of people the anticipation of a possible reward is pleasurable. Having something lucky happen to you feels great, regardless of whether you "earned" it. You might be the abnormal one here.

I put the Mog Bonanza in the same boat, except that one actually drains up to 10 of your inventory slots for a month or so. Given the interest shown in the Mounts thread, the usefulness of Trusts at this stage in the game, many of which were only available for a limited time, and the amount of people running around in goofy costumes using style lock I fallback to what I said earlier: you can provide a great number of random rewards via the goblin chests without taking a sledgehammer to FFXI's kneecaps.

This guy acts like if he found a twenty dollar bill he'd throw it in the garbage because he didn't earn it.

The rest of us are going to smile and buy a friend pizza and beer.

Or you could go back to this:

I don't WANT to be given anything for free, I want to earn it, but let's be frank here, I'll spend the 10 seconds or so to check the goblin chest every time I login for my shot at millions of gil or useful piece of gear just like you.

In which case a closer analogy would be that you're begging for the $20. I take it begrudgingly.

I spent 12 months making my relic back when you did Dynamis in alliances twice a week and you had to sponsor runs, now you can solo them in a week. Things change, deal with it and stop worrying about others and worry about yourself. If you play this game for prestige then you're about 5 years out of date.

Careful, the faults and personality traits we can’t stand in other people are often traits of our own personality.

Shirai

04-22-2016, 03:58 PM

Ok, it's high time to step away from that soap box you're standing on. You induldge in the same "sin" as the rest of us, those are your own words.
No, don't give us this "I'm doing this against my will" speech, the game won't stop you from playing it if you don't open your box or if you do not spend your log in points and we're not forcing you either.

Like us, you choose to open the box, you choose to spend the log in points and you choose to participate in Bonanza.
You're not against it, and now there's nothing left to convince us that you are. You're the same as us, a gambler, and it's time that you accept that fact.

Diavolo

04-22-2016, 08:40 PM

Like us, you choose to open the box, you choose to spend the log in points and you choose to participate in Bonanza.
You're not against it, and now there's nothing left to convince us that you are. You're the same as us, a gambler, and it's time that you accept that fact.

The difference is that some of you are claiming it is THE reason you are still playing. In case you aren't aware of it yet, many of us are playing on servers that look more like ghost towns for most of the day and making it a point to attract people who have no interest taking part in the world isn't helping.

Shirai

04-22-2016, 08:54 PM

So what?! If that is the reason they're still playing, let them!
They are also part of the reason that you and them and me are still able to play and enjoy this game. It's also their subscription that keeps this game going.

And if you think your world is so bad, move to a more populated one. It's what all the cool kids do these days.

Ketaru

04-22-2016, 11:52 PM

All of the UNM materials have crashed hard in price, so it does effect the economy. Look at that person who spends a lot of RL money and time with all those mules just to do this campaign lol. I can't believe people would do that just for UNM, you realize how easy to kill most of these are?

If you're worried about the economy, I hope you extend your opposition to double accolades, double unity coffer drops, double personal loot from Escha NMs, and double personal REM drops from high tier battlefields. Those have done more to affect the prices of highly coveted consumables than any once-per-day freebie box ever would.

With the fervor in this thread, as well as the name, you'd think thread was about social welfare programs or something.

Diavolo

04-23-2016, 03:25 AM

So what?! If that is the reason they're still playing, let them!
They are also part of the reason that you and them and me are still able to play and enjoy this game. It's also their subscription that keeps this game going.

You think casual players paying for stuff to be handed to them are what's keeping the game alive? Interesting.

detlef

04-23-2016, 03:55 AM

You think casual players paying for stuff to be handed to them are what's keeping the game alive? Interesting.Heh every one of your posts is dripping with condescension. Is that intentional?

Unity drops are like what, 3rd tier and dropping? I had some misgivings with the abjuration dial, but in the end body drops were far more uncommon so really it was just a nice treat for a handful of lucky players. Those free dark matter augments probably ruined the game in your eyes.

I'm not understanding who is actually hurt. Is there a better argument than some casual getting a Jovian Body abjuration won't join a Pakecet shout group?

Pixela

04-23-2016, 04:19 AM

You think casual players paying for stuff to be handed to them are what's keeping the game alive? Interesting.

It's amusing you think it's not, as a now filthy casual I spend more on this game than you in a month by a large margin (my level 1 alts that exist purely for gobbie boxes alone probably put more money into the game than you do with your min/maxed characters). Also it's worth keeping in mind that with my massive amount of characters all getting "hand outs" I still don't have even 1 single set of abjurations complete or even 1/10th of UNM drops I want (and I lose no sleep over that fact either). What keeps this game alive and getting updates is money, updates are what keep people playing. Nobody is going to get all the items they want from hand-outs, the only way you'll do that is by doing the content and if your friends are all capped out it's because of double drops which you take full advantage of and not gob events.

The "hand outs" are for fun, little more than that. You can't gear a character with any of them and you sure ain't capping out, if I can't with my little army of characters than nobody can (outside of immense luck).

Diavolo

04-23-2016, 06:00 AM

Those free dark matter augments probably ruined the game in your eyes.

Viewing the issue in black and white as you just did there is why you have trouble understanding the other side of the argument.

This isn't about one person (casual or otherwise), one drop or one specific type of content. It's thousands of items given away daily, affecting everyone to some degree, both positively and negatively, like the brief examples I mentioned earlier in the thread.

If those goblin NPCs were handing items from outdated content no one plays anymore or crafted gear no one bothers making anymore that's one thing, but they've been handing out rewards from the newest areas of the game. Ask yourself, does Final Fantasy XI need to be doing this to keep its subscriber numbers up? If the answer is yes, why? I'm genuinely interested in your response.

This topic brings to mind the old proverb about giving a man a fish vs teaching him how to catch it. The dev team is giving us all a fish (or chunk of rock salt) every day.

It's amusing you think it's not, as a now filthy casual I spend more on this game than you in a month by a large margin (my level 1 alts that exist purely for gobbie boxes alone probably put more money into the game than you do with your min/maxed characters). Also it's worth keeping in mind that with my massive amount of characters all getting "hand outs" I still don't have even 1 single set of abjurations complete or even 1/10th of UNM drops I want (and I lose no sleep over that fact either). What keeps this game alive and getting updates is money, updates are what keep people playing. Nobody is going to get all the items they want from hand-outs, the only way you'll do that is by doing the content and if your friends are all capped out it's because of double drops which you take full advantage of and not gob events.

Again, black and white - you assume that if you get all the gear you want from the goblin dials then it has a negative impact on the game, but if you only get a select few pieces it has no impact whatsoever.

This isn't about me vs you either (re: money spent). This game only exists today because of the millions of players that it has attracted over its almost 14 year existence. While the population numbers today are a far cry from where they once were, it's probably safe to say the vast majority of active accounts are played by people who would continue playing even if the hand outs came to an end.

Pixela

04-23-2016, 06:33 AM

Again, black and white - you assume that if you get all the gear you want from the goblin dials then it has a negative impact on the game, but if you only get a select few pieces it has no impact whatsoever.

This isn't about me vs you either (re: money spent). This game only exists today because of the millions of players that it has attracted over its almost 14 year existence. While the population numbers today are a far cry from where they once were, it's probably safe to say the vast majority of active accounts are played by people who would continue playing even if the hand outs came to an end.

Of course but ending the events would lead to a large drop in profits, or are you saying ending them would usher in a large wave of new players?

detlef

04-23-2016, 05:51 PM

Viewing the issue in black and white as you just did there is why you have trouble understanding the other side of the argument.

This isn't about one person (casual or otherwise), one drop or one specific type of content. It's thousands of items given away daily, affecting everyone to some degree, both positively and negatively, like the brief examples I mentioned earlier in the thread.

If those goblin NPCs were handing items from outdated content no one plays anymore or crafted gear no one bothers making anymore that's one thing, but they've been handing out rewards from the newest areas of the game. Ask yourself, does Final Fantasy XI need to be doing this to keep its subscriber numbers up? If the answer is yes, why? I'm genuinely interested in your response.

This topic brings to mind the old proverb about giving a man a fish vs teaching him how to catch it. The dev team is giving us all a fish (or chunk of rock salt) every day.You completely ignored that part of my post and focused on my comment on dark matter. Let me get this straight then. Adoulin dial is okay because Delve and Skirmish are outdated. But Unity is pretty much outdated too. I'm sort of with you on abjurations but I think the body abjurations were sufficiently rare to render the argument moot.

Now, as for whether FFXI needs to be doing this to maintain subscriber numbers... Who knows? I think people appreciate these campaigns not only for the free gear but also as a reassurance that the game is still alive. When the dev team comes up with something new and inventive, I like that. Maybe that thing is new content like Ambuscade, maybe it's something that's arguably worthless like the patio. Maybe it's something that a small minority will appreciate like mounts. And maybe it's a new way of giving treats to the playerbase. I don't personally need any help getting abjurations, but somebody out there was genuinely happy to get something. I ignored dark matter augments, so 6 free ones per day was amazing (and let's be real, no reasonable person was already doing dark matter augments so that didn't negatively affect anybody).

We all know the saying about giving a man a fish versus teaching a man to fish. How about "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." Okay, you hate the idea of a Jovian Body abjuration loading for a random person. So how would you get that person to farm Pakecet instead? Maybe instead of giving out abjurations, SE could give out NM triggers. But now I ask you, is that really going to make people do the content? It's not that I think giving people free stuff will get them to do content, I just don't think anything short of nerfing things will get people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. So if a given player was never going to do Pakecet anyway, then sure, give him a chance for a Jovian Body. What's the harm?

Diavolo

04-24-2016, 01:46 AM

Of course but ending the events would lead to a large drop in profits, or are you saying ending them would usher in a large wave of new players?

I don't know that it would make a large drop in profits, but it surely wouldn't usher in new subscribers without a change in direction for the game. Right now it seems like we're constantly being bombarded with free stuff and campaigns temporarily making outdated content more enticing: login points, Adoulin dial, abjuration dial, Wanted dial, WKR campaigns, Voidwatch campaigns, hard mode battlefield campaigns and on and on... as a hardcore player it's easy to sit back and say, "Ahh, this is the life!" but they're essentially acting as temporary "solutions" for what is outdated content. The fact that many players now say "I'll wait for the next campaign before I do X event" is terrible to me. Having lots of choices was one of this game's strengths in the pre-Abyssea days. Today everything becomes the flavor of the month (or week during the Rainbow Campaign) and activity for most everything else drops off.

Have you noticed how much easier it is to enter Ambuscade? That's not because they added more rooms/"instances", it's simply because the current campaigns pulled people away. It should be like that everyday, except the content those campaigns are promoting should be updated to be more approachable in this day and age. Let's be honest, farming a level 119 Empyrean weapon is ridiculously difficult in comparison to a relic or mythic - without capped lights and boosted cells Voidwatch still requires a party/ally covering many jobs for triggering weaknesses, it's just not realistic anymore and there's a decent sized thread here covering this. Likewise, good luck making any real progress on that Idris or Epeolatry outside of a WKR campaign, not to mention the 6 months or so it takes just to make your way through the coalition assignments. A couple of great players I had the benefit of playing with recently got stuck there and after endlessly grinding through WKRs decided to quit the game.

I used to hate CP campaigns too (not so much the XP part of 'em) because it got a lot of people to 2100 JP in a hurry, some of whom have no idea what they're even doing on those jobs (so much for that "master" title). With so many people having multiple master class jobs now they're losing incentive to go out and CP, making it more difficult to find parties, at least on the less populated servers, so good luck to new or returning players wanting to progress through the ranks unless they permanently increase CP gain a bit. A good friend of mine who only logs on two or three times a week has been having a hell of time trying to make pogress with BLM JPs since everyone else is busy taking part in campaigns and the one CP party that might be online at that time doesn't want to take the hit for adding an extra player. The way things are right now he likely won't be around much longer either.

I take full advantage of campaigns myself, I'd be silly not to, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, it's like throwing cocaine in front of an addict. A lot of players wind up grinding that content hardcore because it's a limited time event and we wind up losing one or two players when it's over. They burn themselves out. I guess I just have a higher tolerance. :p

This turned into an off topic rant, but again, I don't mind the goblin dials so much as the quality of items they're giving us. Like the OP I think the hand outs have gotten out of hand. A little more time spent recalibrating older content for today's players would go a long way to retaining membership (an LS member is calling it quits as I type this). Stuff like more mobs with quicker repop times (waiting 10+ mins for some mobs to repop kinda made sense in 2004, not anymore), new high level mobs in old zones like Meriphataud Mountains, adding plut/beit/boulders as 1-2% drops to mobs yielding XP/CP (similar to seal drops)... just some ideas off the top of my head. They're the type of changes that wouldn't be difficult to implement and would bring a little life back to completely ignored zones.

You completely ignored that part of my post and focused on my comment on dark matter. Let me get this straight then. Adoulin dial is okay because Delve and Skirmish are outdated. But Unity is pretty much outdated too. I'm sort of with you on abjurations but I think the body abjurations were sufficiently rare to render the argument moot.

Unity Wanted battles still provides players with gear useful at end game, such as Loricate neck, and while true that body abjurations were rare from the abjuration dial campaigns I don't see any reason why they, or any end game abjurations for that matter, should be thrown out for free. A lot of that stuff can be acquired with as few as 2-3 players, some of it can even be solo'd fairly easily provided you have decent gear, vorseals and trusts. I was getting myself abjurations using 119 relic/artifact gear with the odd piece of Escha Zitah gear I also solo'd.

Now, as for whether FFXI needs to be doing this to maintain subscriber numbers... Who knows? I think people appreciate these campaigns not only for the free gear but also as a reassurance that the game is still alive. When the dev team comes up with something new and inventive, I like that. Maybe that thing is new content like Ambuscade, maybe it's something that's arguably worthless like the patio. Maybe it's something that a small minority will appreciate like mounts. And maybe it's a new way of giving treats to the playerbase. I don't personally need any help getting abjurations, but somebody out there was genuinely happy to get something. I ignored dark matter augments, so 6 free ones per day was amazing (and let's be real, no reasonable person was already doing dark matter augments so that didn't negatively affect anybody).We agree here, Dark Matter augments are ridiculous in that no reasonable person is spending 1M a pop, but instead of asking for free augment campaigns we should be asking for them to improve the augment system or at least find a way of making dark matter a little more accessible. I'm surely not going to spend 1M on an item that has a very high likelihood of giving me an augment serving me absolutely no purpose, like -3 Blood Pact ability delay on Odyssean boots.

I have no doubt most people appreciate free stuff - I wouldn't turn away a million dollars if it was dropped in my lap tomorrow - but the question is why is it needed? Do they believe its necessary? I guess I'm just too old school to see the benefit here as I still believe there is a large enough segment of the gaming market that appreciates a good challenge within a large scale, social atmosphere. There was a far greater sense of accomplishment and satisfaction tied to this game back in its early years because it was so difficult and gave you nothing for free.

We all know the saying about giving a man a fish versus teaching a man to fish. How about "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." Okay, you hate the idea of a Jovian Body abjuration loading for a random person. So how would you get that person to farm Pakecet instead? Maybe instead of giving out abjurations, SE could give out NM triggers. But now I ask you, is that really going to make people do the content? It's not that I think giving people free stuff will get them to do content, I just don't think anything short of nerfing things will get people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. So if a given player was never going to do Pakecet anyway, then sure, give him a chance for a Jovian Body. What's the harm?It simply isn't deserved. If I'm not going to make the effort to get myself a university degree and high paying job do I deserve that Lamborghini sitting outside my driveway?

If a player won't take the time/effort needed to obtain end game gear they should go on playing the game without it, until which time someone or something motivates them to go after it. This is still an MMORPG where players from all sorts of different backgrounds come together. Maybe that well geared person a casual player holds in high regard one day asks why they aren't wearing Adhemar jacket and after a brief conversation convinces them it's time to start working up to it. Or maybe they just don't care enough. It's up to you to decide what you do/don't want. Not everyone has it in them to make it to the top and there's nothing wrong with that, but rewarding them for showing no interest/effort? I do find something wrong with that - it sends the wrong message.

Stompa

04-24-2016, 06:52 AM

I don't know that it would make a large drop in profits, but it surely wouldn't usher in new subscribers without a change in direction for the game. Right now it seems like we're constantly being bombarded with free stuff and campaigns temporarily making outdated content more enticing: login points, Adoulin dial, abjuration dial, Wanted dial, WKR campaigns, Voidwatch campaigns, hard mode battlefield campaigns and on and on... as a hardcore player it's easy to sit back and say, "Ahh, this is the life!" but they're essentially acting as temporary "solutions" for what is outdated content. The fact that many players now say "I'll wait for the next campaign before I do X event" is terrible to me. Having lots of choices was one of this game's strengths in the pre-Abyssea days. Today everything becomes the flavor of the month (or week during the Rainbow Campaign) and activity for most everything else drops off.

Have you noticed how much easier it is to enter Ambuscade? That's not because they added more rooms/"instances", it's simply because the current campaigns pulled people away. It should be like that everyday, except the content those campaigns are promoting should be updated to be more approachable in this day and age. Let's be honest, farming a level 119 Empyrean weapon is ridiculously difficult in comparison to a relic or mythic - without capped lights and boosted cells Voidwatch still requires a party/ally covering many jobs for triggering weaknesses, it's just not realistic anymore and there's a decent sized thread here covering this. Likewise, good luck making any real progress on that Idris or Epeolatry outside of a WKR campaign, not to mention the 6 months or so it takes just to make your way through the coalition assignments. A couple of great players I had the benefit of playing with recently got stuck there and after endlessly grinding through WKRs decided to quit the game.

I used to hate CP campaigns too (not so much the XP part of 'em) because it got a lot of people to 2100 JP in a hurry, some of whom have no idea what they're even doing on those jobs (so much for that "master" title). With so many people having multiple master class jobs now they're losing incentive to go out and CP, making it more difficult to find parties, at least on the less populated servers, so good luck to new or returning players wanting to progress through the ranks unless they permanently increase CP gain a bit. A good friend of mine who only logs on two or three times a week has been having a hell of time trying to make pogress with BLM JPs since everyone else is busy taking part in campaigns and the one CP party that might be online at that time doesn't want to take the hit for adding an extra player. The way things are right now he likely won't be around much longer either.

I take full advantage of campaigns myself, I'd be silly not to, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, it's like throwing cocaine in front of an addict. A lot of players wind up grinding that content hardcore because it's a limited time event and we wind up losing one or two players when it's over. They burn themselves out. I guess I just have a higher tolerance. :p

This turned into an off topic rant, but again, I don't mind the goblin dials so much as the quality of items they're giving us. Like the OP I think the hand outs have gotten out of hand. A little more time spent recalibrating older content for today's players would go a long way to retaining membership (an LS member is calling it quits as I type this). Stuff like more mobs with quicker repop times (waiting 10+ mins for some mobs to repop kinda made sense in 2004, not anymore), new high level mobs in old zones like Meriphataud Mountains, adding plut/beit/boulders as 1-2% drops to mobs yielding XP/CP (similar to seal drops)... just some ideas off the top of my head. They're the type of changes that wouldn't be difficult to implement and would bring a little life back to completely ignored zones.

Unity Wanted battles still provides players with gear useful at end game, such as Loricate neck, and while true that body abjurations were rare from the abjuration dial campaigns I don't see any reason why they, or any end game abjurations for that matter, should be thrown out for free. A lot of that stuff can be acquired with as few as 2-3 players, some of it can even be solo'd fairly easily provided you have decent gear, vorseals and trusts. I was getting myself abjurations using 119 relic/artifact gear with the odd piece of Escha Zitah gear I also solo'd.

We agree here, Dark Matter augments are ridiculous in that no reasonable person is spending 1M a pop, but instead of asking for free augment campaigns we should be asking for them to improve the augment system or at least find a way of making dark matter a little more accessible. I'm surely not going to spend 1M on an item that has a very high likelihood of giving me an augment serving me absolutely no purpose, like -3 Blood Pact ability delay on Odyssean boots.

I have no doubt most people appreciate free stuff - I wouldn't turn away a million dollars if it was dropped in my lap tomorrow - but the question is why is it needed? Do they believe its necessary? I guess I'm just too old school to see the benefit here as I still believe there is a large enough segment of the gaming market that appreciates a good challenge within a large scale, social atmosphere. There was a far greater sense of accomplishment and satisfaction tied to this game back in its early years because it was so difficult and gave you nothing for free.

It simply isn't deserved. If I'm not going to make the effort to get myself a university degree and high paying job do I deserve that Lamborghini sitting outside my driveway?

If a player won't take the time/effort needed to obtain end game gear they should go on playing the game without it, until which time someone or something motivates them to go after it. This is still an MMORPG where players from all sorts of different backgrounds come together. Maybe that well geared person a casual player holds in high regard one day asks why they aren't wearing Adhemar jacket and after a brief conversation convinces them it's time to start working up to it. Or maybe they just don't care enough. It's up to you to decide what you do/don't want. Not everyone has it in them to make it to the top and there's nothing wrong with that, but rewarding them for showing no interest/effort? I do find something wrong with that - it sends the wrong message.

I want to say that I've enjoyed reading all your posts in this thread, you write well and make your points clearly. Also I really did respect you for reading the poster who said "UNM Dial made me realise that there are so many Unity NMs that I'd never heard of, and made me research UNM properly" [paraphrased] which, to your credit, you highlighted that point and accepted it as a valid counter to your own arguments. So I'm really not battling you, I think you make valid points and you acknowledge valid counter-arguments.

This post [quoted above] is full of contradictions. You say that all the Freeby stuff is killing the authentic achievement feels, but then you say Empys are almost impossible without bonus events, and Jobmaster is too much without bonus events. This is a contradiction, and also not true.

I got Jobmaster without using rings or capes, and most of my 2100 points was gained outside of Double-Cap / Chain-bonus events. I never partied for jobpoints, I just went and solo'd them. It is perfectly simple enough to do. You say your friend is quitting because they don't want to solo Jobpoints slowly, I think this is a shame, because soloing Jobpoints slowly is a great sense of achievement, and a good test of how you can streamline your job for efficiency.

I got Empy finished before the capped-lights-VW existed, and so did many other people. It just takes a lot of dedication, focusing on that one weapon and not being distracted by Mythics/Relics. I don't have Mythics or Relics at 119 stage, because I focused on Empys instead.

And by contrast, I have been able to farm Jobmaster and Empy weapons without any bonus events / help. At the same time, I have not received a single piece of gear from UNM dial, or anything useful from ABJ/SOA dials. So this goes against what you are saying completely.

As your post shows, SE have a hard job trying to balance this game, to make it just right and acceptable to everyone. In the same post you are saying that bonus events / free stuff is bad, because it discourages people from farming and making an effort, then you go on to say how farming / making an effort in Jobpoints and Empys is driving people away. So clearly you are answering your own questions here, you are highlighting that some people find some content too hard and some people find it too easy. And it seems to vary from person to person.

I think Jobmaster is a bigger achievement if you are grinding out the small numbers over a longer period of time, and I think Empys are desirable because they require so much dedication in the face of loot-pool randomness. So I am happy if those Jobpoints / VW Lights events didn't exist.

I would however prefer a static base drop-rate in VW, a structured attainment system, the abolition of random loot reloads. But that would be a change to the system, rather than a bonus event.

Similarly with Ergons, a lot of people did farm Ergons before the WKR bonus event existed. It is possible, it just requires a lot of dedication.

But at the same time, I see no harm in Gobby Dial stuff, because it is a fun bonus event which is especially User-Friendly and exciting for new / returning players.

So I don't think there is a right/wrong here, only personal preferences, which not only vary from person to person, but vary a lot in a single person too. I think SE deserve great praise for trying to balance a game with so many different players who have so many varied requests and preferences. I admire SE greatly for trying to maintain this balance, and improve QOL for players of all stages, from New Adventurers all the way to seasoned Pros.
:rolleyes:

detlef

04-25-2016, 03:45 AM

Today everything becomes the flavor of the month (or week during the Rainbow Campaign) and activity for most everything else drops off.So you’re complaining that interest in things drops off while also complaining that interest in something picks up. I mean, that’s ridiculous right? Interest in every event in the game has to be maintained at some level that you’re happy with? On low population servers, SE saying “hey you guys may want to focus on X even this month/week” helps to focus peoples’ efforts so things can actually get done.

Have you noticed how much easier it is to enter Ambuscade? That's not because they added more rooms/"instances", it's simply because the current campaigns pulled people away. It should be like that everyday, except the content those campaigns are promoting should be updated to be more approachable in this day and age.Wait, isn’t pulling peoples’ attention away from Ambuscade and making the event tolerable (if only temporarily) a good thing?

I used to hate CP campaigns too (not so much the XP part of 'em) because it got a lot of people to 2100 JP in a hurry, some of whom have no idea what they're even doing on those jobs (so much for that "master" title). With so many people having multiple master class jobs now they're losing incentive to go out and CP, making it more difficult to find parties, at least on the less populated servers, so good luck to new or returning players wanting to progress through the ranks unless they permanently increase CP gain a bit. A good friend of mine who only logs on two or three times a week has been having a hell of time trying to make pogress with BLM JPs since everyone else is busy taking part in campaigns and the one CP party that might be online at that time doesn't want to take the hit for adding an extra player. The way things are right now he likely won't be around much longer either.Your complain is a familiar one. I think people have been saying that players don’t learn anything from XP/merits for at least a decade. Being good at XP never made us good players and even players who were horrible at XP still advanced, whether it was 2004 or 2016.

As for your friend, yeah it sucks that the playerbase has decided that only double CP is worth doing but it’s also a sign that a lot of people have capped their favorite jobs by now. I don’t think a PT taking an XP hit for adding another player is really relevant.

This turned into an off topic rant, but again, I don't mind the goblin dials so much as the quality of items they're giving us. Like the OP I think the hand outs have gotten out of hand. A little more time spent recalibrating older content for today's players would go a long way to retaining membership (an LS member is calling it quits as I type this). Stuff like more mobs with quicker repop times (waiting 10+ mins for some mobs to repop kinda made sense in 2004, not anymore), new high level mobs in old zones like Meriphataud Mountains, adding plut/beit/boulders as 1-2% drops to mobs yielding XP/CP (similar to seal drops)... just some ideas off the top of my head. They're the type of changes that wouldn't be difficult to implement and would bring a little life back to completely ignored zones. Sure we’d all like that but what does it have to do with hand outs?

Unity Wanted battles still provides players with gear useful at end game, such as Loricate neck, and while true that body abjurations were rare from the abjuration dial campaigns I don't see any reason why they, or any end game abjurations for that matter, should be thrown out for free. A lot of that stuff can be acquired with as few as 2-3 players, some of it can even be solo'd fairly easily provided you have decent gear, vorseals and trusts. I was getting myself abjurations using 119 relic/artifact gear with the odd piece of Escha Zitah gear I also solo'd.That you only came up with Loricate Torque as an example is pretty indicative of how weak Unity drops are as a whole right now. It’s barely better than Twilight Torque. I’m sure there’re other things that are extremely situationally useful but if we tried we could probably find some Abyssea gear that’s still equally useful.

I’m not really against your approach with body abjurations. If it were up to me, yeah, it’s probably too powerful to just give away. But then, if it’s rare enough then I’m not really seeing a problem and it’s not worth protesting to me.

If a player won't take the time/effort needed to obtain end game gear they should go on playing the game without it, until which time someone or something motivates them to go after it. This is still an MMORPG where players from all sorts of different backgrounds come together. Maybe that well geared person a casual player holds in high regard one day asks why they aren't wearing Adhemar jacket and after a brief conversation convinces them it's time to start working up to it. Or maybe they just don't care enough. It's up to you to decide what you do/don't want. Not everyone has it in them to make it to the top and there's nothing wrong with that, but rewarding them for showing no interest/effort? I do find something wrong with that - it sends the wrong message.Going back to your “teach a man to fish” platitude, I don’t think you can get people to want to learn to fish. So I don’t see the harm in giving players a random shot at a rare fish, especially when there’s only a small chance that it’s a best-in-slot fish.

Diavolo

04-25-2016, 07:07 AM

This post [quoted above] is full of contradictions. You say that all the Freeby stuff is killing the authentic achievement feels, but then you say Empys are almost impossible without bonus events, and Jobmaster is too much without bonus events. This is a contradiction, and also not true.

It's all about balance and I see none where the R/E/M weapons are concerned because Empys are so much more difficult to build than their counterparts without offering any clear advantage to justify it (won't even bring up that poor Ochain). Dynamis has seen many changes which have made farming currency much easier over the years. Likewise, Assaults and Salvage can now be done far more frequently thanks to Rhapsody key items. What changes has Voidwatch received to make farming Empyrean weapon items easier? Lowered atmacite enrichment and Phase Displacer costs as well as the recent voidstone change, which are great, don't get me wrong, but Dynamis and Salvage have been solo-friendly for a long time now whereas VW most definitely is not. Using the /fume emote every 5 minutes wasn't a very practical solution. There's a relatively long thread about this here in the forum which you're a part of, so I trust you understand the community's frustration.

I'm right there with you on CP - I solo'd practically all of mine across several jobs, both with and without CP campaigns active - but with so many of those campaigns having passed now, the population on a lot of servers being so low and having absolutely no incentive to continue CPing jobs we already have at Master it again becomes a question of balance. How do you get those who already have their jobs at Master to go out and help others reach that goal? The easy answer here would be to allow the use of your JP across all jobs, like merit points. Still hoping this becomes a reality at some point in the not too distant future.

In the example I brought up about my friend's situation, it's compounded by the fact that he's excluded from pick up groups and end game content the LS is tackling because he isn't able to get those important JPs/Gifts he needs. So Player A takes part in CP campaign and gets into every event he wants, while Player B misses out on a party or two during campaign and is forced to solo. Obviously it's slower when solo and it's made worse when the campaign ends because that divide between Player A and B requires a whole lot more work to overcome. While this has no real effect on me personally because I login practically everyday, it does affect those of us who aren't able to do so and reinforces my belief that campaigns are bad idea. If the dev team believes we need this many XP/CP campaigns then it begs the question, why? Like you, I'd be happy enough with the regular XP/CP limit. Reaching Master rank should not be an easy endeavor done in the span of a weekend, but this is what it's come to.

I got Empy finished before the capped-lights-VW existed, and so did many other people. It just takes a lot of dedication, focusing on that one weapon and not being distracted by Mythics/Relics. I don't have Mythics or Relics at 119 stage, because I focused on Empys instead.

While FFXIAH's website doesn't account for all subscribers, it does represent a good portion of the population. I urge you to go use it to search for and compare the number of level 99 Empyreans versus the same weapon type Relic and Mythic across all servers. It's lopsided by a significant margin. In sword's case: 60 Almaces vs 471 Excaliburs vs 312 Burtgangs which is quite telling considering Almace is available to more jobs, one of them being very popular right now.

I have been, and remain, a proponent for challenging content. The problem with Empyreans is that their counterparts have become far easier to obtain and their stats really don't reflect that, especially in Ochain's case now that it's been rendered almost useless against level 130+ content.

And by contrast, I have been able to farm Jobmaster and Empy weapons without any bonus events / help. At the same time, I have not received a single piece of gear from UNM dial, or anything useful from ABJ/SOA dials. So this goes against what you are saying completely.

Only if you're suggesting your personal experience reflects that of every player. I've received mostly low level Wanted battle items, both gear and "special items" for upgrade purposes, which I just send to my mules. You can't use anecdotal evidence of one player receiving no gear whatsoever to make the point it's having no impact on our worlds, which completely disregards the upgrade items. There are screen shots of players getting Tumult Curator's drops from that dial (I got its blood today), so if I was using your argument I could say everyone's getting that content's best items (obviously not true :p).

We've been receiving these campaigns for so long that we've come to expect them, so regardless of how good/bad they are for the game removing them entirely now would come as a shock to the system, unfortunately. We're forced to deal with them whether we like them or not. I just hope going forward a little more thought goes into their impact on the game and even each individual server, as your experience on one server to the next varies far more today than it has at any other point in this game's life. I'm not sure the development team has come to understand this yet.

Wait, isn’t pulling peoples’ attention away from Ambuscade and making the event tolerable (if only temporarily) a good thing?

That's precisely what I meant when I said "that's how it should be every day." It shouldn't be temporary. If Voidwatch, Wildskeeper Reives and other content like Vagary and Delve were made more tolerable/accessible just as Dynamis and Salvage were; if CPing a Master'ed job allowed you to transfer earned JPs to unused/unwanted jobs; if high tier battlefields always dropped more plut/beit/boulders... if all that was done we would have a wealth of options available to us every single time we logged into the game and we wouldn't have to worry about entering newer content like Ambuscade. We wouldn't have to worry about missing out if we had real life responsibilities to attend to that week/month. We wouldn't feel forced to grind like today was the last day on Vana'diel.

That you only came up with Loricate Torque as an example is pretty indicative of how weak Unity drops are as a whole right now. It’s barely better than Twilight Torque. I’m sure there’re other things that are extremely situationally useful but if we tried we could probably find some Abyssea gear that’s still equally useful.

I'm not Unity's biggest fan, but I think you're selling it short. We're playing a game where people pay huge sums of gil for a marginal stat increase and Loricate Torque +1 was an obvious example for me to use as it's best in slot for -damage taken. I don't play BLU much, but Tanmogayi +1 made for a really nice sword I could shoot for, as well as Celine's earring for those rare occasions where I'd benefit from a HP+ gear set. Unity is easy enough for players of any skill level to attempt as they make the climb up the ladder and can be a fun diversion even for the more hardcore players, but the point here is that they should be encouraged to take part in Unity and not be handed the rewards just for logging in.

Olor

04-26-2016, 02:34 AM

Aby was a lot more fun than SOA or Escha etc. imho.

Oh yes, so much more fun. I really wish the devs had not thrown out all of the things they learned in Abyssea/voidwatch era about not punishing people for bringing extra players. All the most useful content since Voidwatch has basically punished players for bringing extra people along, whereas VW/Abyssea there was, at worst, no loss for bringing others. Gone are the days when you could just show up at a boss pop and get a clear from people farming it who had no reason not to let you in to get the title. Gone are the days where a person could focus on a little niche (for me it was proccing on BLU in voidwatch) and join in on high level content.

I mean, sure I had no way into neo-nyzul at the time - so that was still something that gave elite gear to better players, but there was real endgame shouts I could join. I really really really miss that.

Anyway, maybe the devs wouldn't feel like they need to give out free 119 gear through a lottery box if events were designed to better allow players to join in on relevant content. Right now everything is either fairly useless (unity stuff is nice for a player like me but completely irrelevant for the most part for better players) and thus it's hard to get groups for it, or it's super duper hard and you have to already be geared to join in.

I am fully willing to take some responsibility for not being set up for hardcore endgame, I only play a bit here and there and I haven't optimized my macros, don't use helpful addons etc... but I see it as a problem that it is hard to find group content to do if you're not 100% top of the line... I used to be able to do lots of the content that the top tier players were doing.

Maybe it would help if they extended yells to more areas? I don't know, it just sucks that you have to sit around in town if you want to try to find something group oriented to do. FFXIAH shouts help, but it's still not ideal.

The box definitely gives me an incentive to stay subbed and MOST definitely gives me a reason to login. Often I'll decide to play a bit more once I've done my logins, since I've already loaded up the game... whereas when there is no campaign I rarely log in at all.

Diavolo

04-26-2016, 08:49 AM

Even though you and I may prefer Relics and Mythics, and we can see they are more powerful in some ways, and we love the Jobspecific bonuses on those weapons, which are totally missing from Empys, that doesn't change the fact that when Empy-building was introduced, it was designed to be the "latest and greatest" legendary superweapon class. So because SE viewed Empys as the latest and best of the RME, they made the content extremely challenging for a level 99 player.

Except this is 2016 and a lot of content in this game has been made far more accessible (re: solo-friendly) whereas Voidwatch has yet to be scaled down that way. As you pointed out in the HMP, Riftcinder, Riftdross thread the drop rate of these items was officially said to increase as the size of the party/alliance increases, yet the days of being able to gather an alliance, let alone a single party, to tackle this content is long behind us. That is exactly why all this other content has been made solo-friendly. So, what reason is keeping Voidwatch from going down that same path?

It is entirely possible to build a 119AG Empy today, with the right amount of effort. I don't see it as a balance issue.

The fact that something is possible can't be used as a reason against scaling it down, that makes no sense here. It was possible to build a relic weapon when Dynamis was introduced, so why make it easier over the years? It was entirely possible to build a mythic weapon when Salvage was introduced, so why make that easier? It's all relative, except while relic and mythic weapons were made far easier to build since their introduction, level 95-99 empyrean weapons remain a painful grind that's only realistic during a Voidwatch campaign or if you're lucky enough to get a group of people who A) want to farm empyrean weapons everyday and B) have enough voidstones to do it.

In my case, I went and farmed the currencies for my main Empy, which is why I don't see the lack of balance you speak of. If you farmed all your Mythic and Relic currencies instead of buying them, you would notice that it actually takes a while. The same is true of Empys, only more so, because it is from a higher-level stage of the game's timeline.

Whether you farm every piece of currency or buy it all the unmistakable differences in difficulty of farming the level 95-99 R/E/M's should be readily apparent. You are reading the thread about the availability of HMP, Riftcinder and Riftdross, aren't you picking up on the frustration of the players attempting to tackle this content, or maybe you believe they're all just spoiled and should suck it up the way we did years ago?

Similarly, on the balance issue, I would rather have an Afterglow Relic or Mythic, than have an Aeonic. Yet you can solo Relics/Mythics or buy them with Gil. Aeonics are way harder to solo farm or buy from the AH.

Except the option of buying an Aeonic is open to me whereas the option of buying a 119 Empy isn't quite there due to lack of interest from the player base.

Stompa

04-26-2016, 07:03 PM

this is 2016

Yes it is, unfortunately.

and a lot of content in this game has been made far more accessible (re: solo-friendly) whereas Voidwatch has yet to be scaled down that way. As you pointed out in the HMP, Riftcinder, Riftdross thread the drop rate of these items was officially said to increase as the size of the party/alliance increases, yet the days of being able to gather an alliance, let alone a single party, to tackle this content is long behind us. That is exactly why all this other content has been made solo-friendly. So, what reason is keeping Voidwatch from going down that same path?

SE made displacers cheaper, made VW stones appear in your inventory without visiting the NPC, added VW capped lights events, added Trusts for solo cures etc. and also added all the VW currencies to Ambuscade. I would say that this is a lot of bonuses, compared to a few years ago. It should certainly be enough easiness for somebody who was complaining in this thread, that Free Stuff is killing the legitimate farming achievement feels, and that people should go out and grind stuff instead.

The fact that something is possible can't be used as a reason against scaling it down, that makes no sense here. It was possible to build a relic weapon when Dynamis was introduced, so why make it easier over the years? It was entirely possible to build a mythic weapon when Salvage was introduced, so why make that easier? It's all relative, except while relic and mythic weapons were made far easier to build since their introduction, level 95-99 empyrean weapons remain a painful grind that's only realistic during a Voidwatch campaign or if you're lucky enough to get a group of people who A) want to farm empyrean weapons everyday and B) have enough voidstones to do it.

In the past, a person couldn't solo farm Relics, Mythics or Empys.

Today, a person can solo farm Relics, Mythics, and Empys.

I hope you will see how this is infact totally balanced.

Except the option of buying an Aeonic is open to me whereas the option of buying a 119 Empy isn't quite there due to lack of interest from the player base.

Some parts of the player base are still farming VW, but they are for the most part using the HMP/cinders for their own Empys. You could team up with them.

My friend realised that half the server had unfinished Empys, so he started a VW Linkshell, and /shouted in town until he had like 20 members. They farm VW twice weekly, have static designated jobs, and they don't have to shout for extra members before a run. Nothing is stopping you from doing this too.

Earlier on this thread, you were criticising SE for giving Free Stuff away, and the impact it was having on authentic legitimate farming and Triumphant Achievement Feels. You were basically saying that people should team up and do content, instead of asking for Freebies. A few pages later, and your philosophy has done a full U-turn, and you don't want to start a VW Static LS group to farm your Empys. You would prefer to buy all the Empy materials with Gil, if only the playerbase would go out and farm the materials for you!
:p

Diavolo

05-01-2016, 01:55 PM

SE made displacers cheaper, made VW stones appear in your inventory without visiting the NPC, added VW capped lights events, added Trusts for solo cures etc. and also added all the VW currencies to Ambuscade. I would say that this is a lot of bonuses, compared to a few years ago. It should certainly be enough easiness for somebody who was complaining in this thread, that Free Stuff is killing the legitimate farming achievement feels, and that people should go out and grind stuff instead.

If it was up to me a lot of the changes/additions made to the game wouldn't be here today for reasons that have probably become quite apparent at this point. Except those changes have been made and despite all the "bonuses", as you call them, farming items for Empyrean level 95 and 99 trials from Voidwatch remains a far more daunting task than Relics or Mythics, in some cases impossible just by virtue of how slowly voidstones accumulate (1 every 12 hours if you have the two key items to reduce restock time). I posted Byrth's math behind it all in the HMP, Riftcinder, Riftdross thread and after grinding through the Voidwatch campaign myself, his numbers held up: it takes about 3,500 stones, give or take, for you to farm up the necessary items if you happen to be using just one account. Telling someone they have to wait 4+ years in order to accumulate enough stones to farm up the items for a level 99 Empyrean goes against everything the dev team has been trying to do with this game (re: make it accessible).

No, I don't want it made easier, but I DO want the option to farm up another 119 Empyrean if I so choose and right now that option is wiped clear off the table for me because of the settings in place.

My friend realised that half the server had unfinished Empys, so he started a VW Linkshell, and /shouted in town until he had like 20 members. They farm VW twice weekly, have static designated jobs, and they don't have to shout for extra members before a run. Nothing is stopping you from doing this too.

Just to drive home the point: Yes, something IS stopping me at this point - voidstone recharge time. You're only getting 14 stones a week, which means 14 chances at a 6% drop rate for Heavy Metal Pouches and half that or less for Riftcinder/dross.

Earlier on this thread, you were criticising SE for giving Free Stuff away, and the impact it was having on authentic legitimate farming and Triumphant Achievement Feels. You were basically saying that people should team up and do content, instead of asking for Freebies. A few pages later, and your philosophy has done a full U-turn, and you don't want to start a VW Static LS group to farm your Empys. You would prefer to buy all the Empy materials with Gil, if only the playerbase would go out and farm the materials for you!

This isn't about making the content easier, it's about making it available - there's a difference. Someone that subscribes to FFXI today or is returning from an extended hiatus has no viable option to pursue an Empyrean weapon unless they're on an active server where those Voidwatch items are readily available on the Auction House or via bazaars, in which case they're absolutely forced to buy them at great cost. Do you consider this good game design?