Is the issue with capacity points ever going ot be addressed?

[Pixela]

For returnee players, undergeared or solo/duo players Capacity points are laughably annoying to get right now. There is no ramp to build up, it's a trump wall to climb.

We can't get into CP parties because nobody will take you unless you have amazing gear and CP points aquired already, we can't make our own groups because the monsters are stupid hard to hit. The only option is to kill lesser monsters, which give almost nothing compared to the numbers needed to get 1 capacity point.

Geared players complain CP points are barely worth doing unless they are getting 30-50k CP per kill, meanwhile everyone else is getting around 1k per kill on a good day.

Can we get some boosts to even out the curve here?
Boost the CP lower monsters give for solo/duo players.
Add a RoE quest that gives a large chunk of CP per day as long as you are under 200jP or something.
I understand that CP is a nice time waster for high geared players but you need to make them easier to get the less you have, the curve is insanely steep.

Even if I grind myself to death to get a good amount, the importance of them and difficulty to obtain means I'm put off leveling and gearing another job because of the immense obstacle of Job points. The devs are looking at these form the top end stand point way too much and not seeing how offputting them are to everyone else.

[Kensagaku]

1k/kill on a good day is still a pretty good rate. Did you do CP back when it was first released, where you'd get maybe a couple hundred? I remember my LS going and doing the Woh Gates loop with worms and rabbits, and it took ages to get anything done. It seemed impossible to get anywhere.

Now that I'm done with my "back in the day!" spiel, let me ask questions. When you say "CP is slow because you can't hit things", what are you targeting? If you're going straight to Apex mobs, then yes you're going to have a harder time. Even with good gear they can be a pain. Have you tried Reisenjima mobs? With my ~100ish or so JP PUP, a mantle, and a Trizek ring, I can hit about 8-10k with the current campaign, something like 4-6k per kill without. If you're having accuracy problems there then this is where we need to examine your gear. I'm not talking 5/5 Reisejima gear, but 1-2 pieces are from easier NMs that should not be difficult to get a group for paired with some Skirmish gear to give you a modest amount of accuracy. Don't forget food; Sublime Sushi may be expensive, but that +100 Accuracy is a major deal for anyone.

And one last argument. You argue about not being able to level another job because you're busy grinding JP... isn't leveling up and gearing another job also preventing you from doing it for another job, or grinding for CP, or farming gear? This is just a simple time management issue. How you spend your time in a day is on you, and if you choose to do it on CP, then you advance in JP. If you choose to level another job, then you advance in that job. If you choose to farm gear, then you advance in getting new gear.

[Teraniku]

Yeah the other thing is, as a returning player, you need to cap your skills in particular your Weapon / Evasion / Guard (if a monk) / Shield skills. Spend your points from RoE on Skill books if necessary, get your i117 gear through RoE or Spending Bayld at the appropriate guild. From there you'll have a good base to start from to acquire the other things you want / need.

Cap your magic skills for your mage jobs. Use Food to help with accuracy. etc.

[cengeal]

I recommend finishing the games storylines before getting into JP at a serious level. You get a 10% CP boost from doing each expansion and getting rank 10 in each nation. A lengthy endeavor admittedly, but well worth the effort, and you'll be happier for it as well. And the truth is, you're not meant to skip right to apex parties after hitting to 119 and getting a few pieces of gear. If your character isn't at least ilvl 119, you absolutely should be not be doing an apex party.

I find the most common issue with newer/returning players is they want to skip the steps that the rest of us took to get to that point. The only way you get to skip steps is if you're being carried by other players, which is not a good thing, IMO. And if you are getting carried, please at least be aware of it. I know adding more work in isn't exactly appealing, but it is necessary. A lot of us spent millions of gil getting crappy augments on alluvion skirmish equipment before spending a fraction of that to get better augments on herculean, merlinic, etc. The point of this isn't meant to be condescending or patronizing, but to help you understand that our paths to "glory" weren't as glamorous as you may think. You have more experience, knowledge, and resources available to make those steps that much easier. More importantly, please understand that this wasn't as easy as it looks, especially for your first job.

The best CP/hour for somebody in a similar position will be the camps in Gates zones accessible from defeating the Wildskeeper Reives (The bats in Woh Gates in particular). However, doing the monsters in Escha zones may be more practical as you obtain silt in the process. Some more tips: When doing SKCNM for chapters 1-5, pop a CP ring, you'll get more CP from the chest that way. Also remember to equip your mantle, whether it's an NQ aptitude or a fully capped one from incursion. And incursion is another thing: you get CP from doing it, and have a chance to get a very nice cape. If you don't want to do incursion, I advise you to get Aptitude+1, regardless of the price. You also get CP from doing Unity NM fights, though not much.

I hope at least something in my post helped. If not, I'm sorry I couldn't.

[Pixela]

"I had it bad so you should have it bad" is a silly argument, I don't care how bad it was, it's still not good now. Also I never said you can't level another job because you have to grind JP, I said I'm put off leveling another job because the huge incredibly massive grind in getting JP for a new job is off-putting when it takes months to even get 100-200 JP on it to be seen as acceptable.

When I say 1k a kill on a good day that's counting having all the KI and killing "good" mobs, you are talking a few hundred otherwise and when you need hundreds or thousands that's an insane grind wall. Some grinds are ok, even long grinds are ok..if you ease the player into it and they seem manageable.

The point is they need to have a curve so that people with <10 JP can get to the hundred point a lot faster. Established players can cap out a new job with JP fairly quickly (at least to an acceptable level), that is not the case for new / returnee or casual players. Grinding for hours to get 1-3 JP is almost pointless. I know to many of you that have easy access to JP parties you will not understand, it's like explaining to a rich man how you being hungry is a bad thing but hopefully the CE sees this and at least considers passing it along.

[Kensagaku]

You're kidding, right? Where are you getting only a few hundred from? All Reisenjima mobs should be giving you much more than that. Here, I'll even do a test for you. Level 99 RDM (119 gear, but without equipping my CP cape or using a ring). 0 JP spent, so I have only the bonuses from completing all expansions, reives, and Rhapsodies KIs. I didn't even use Kupofried or Qultada for comparison.

Killing a single Agitated Chapuli, I received 2009 CP. With the campaign doubling, that's still 1000 CP. That's a perfectly reasonable amount; 30 kills for a single Job Point, or a total of 150 kills (which is no more than some of the trials back in ToM days) for your first capacity point bonus. From there, you get a 5% bonus. In this case, it's only 50 more CP per kill, but it'll go up as you progress. Assuming you put in the work to get even a basic CP mantle off of the AH, that's 1250 CP. Assuming the bonuses are additive, you're now looking at 1300 CP/kill at 5 JP. That's quite a bit more than "a few hundred." Then let's toss a Capacity Ring onto that and continue to assume this is additive for the lowest values possible. So 50% more bonus puts you at 1750 CP/kill with ring + AH cape, 1800 with your first gift.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume this person has tossed on unaugmented Taeon gear or basic AH gear and gets slaughtered in Reisenjima because they didn't take the time to get proper gear or use food for accuracy, expecting to start the job grind without actually putting forth the effort. We'll go to Escha - Ru'Aun, which has much easier mobs. Same deal, we'll start with no CP cape or gifts or Trusts. Killing an Eschan Aern, I got 1292 CP. Assuming no Campaign, that's 646 CP/kill. Toss on the 25% cape, we're up to 807/kill. Toss on cape and Capacity Ring, 1130 CP/kill. Still more than a couple hundred per kill with proper preparation. And this is all stuff that's available to any new player at any time. If you're taking "hours" to get 1-3 JP, then you're either not taking the time to prepare or you're fighting Mandragoras right outside of Adoulin.

[Hoshi]

Don't aim for apex mobs, kill mobs in an escha zone. Most everything in ru'aun gives decent CP and is very easy to kill. You can even shout to make an escha kill party where each member needs to keep themselves alive and then mass kill an area. It's not the crazy CP that top geared players get on apex mobs but it's good CP and doesn't require specific jobs or excellent gear.

[MDenham]

Don't aim for apex mobs, kill mobs in an escha zone. Most everything in ru'aun gives decent CP and is very easy to kill. You can even shout to make an escha kill party where each member needs to keep themselves alive and then mass kill an area. It's not the crazy CP that top geared players get on apex mobs but it's good CP and doesn't require specific jobs or excellent gear.I'll just note that doing this in Escha - Ru'Aun, you'll want to have at least 850 accuracy to keep up a decent hit rate. Below 850, you're better off in Escha - Zi'Tah, where you're going to be getting about half as much CP per kill (but generally people in that situation are still working on maxing out the number of merits they can store, so it's not that bad of a situation).

[OmnysValefor]

In my paladin's full DT and a 242 skill sword set (+15 acc from JSE mantle, +82 dex making for 180 dex total*), I have 823 acc. This is in whitegate and without any sanction or other similar buff.

* I gain 135 accuracy for my 180 total dex base+gear.

850-875 acc should be easy for any melee, not even considering JSE weapon augments or Ionis (+40 acc)/Vorseals, and there are some cheap acc foods that you can munch on to push you over.

Further, the JSE weapons--fully augmented--will give you another +50-70 acc (1h vs 2h).

Edit: Apologies, 10 acc from feet augment, 22 acc from hands.

[MDenham]

...aren't most melees who are just starting out in sparks gear going to be sitting closer to 700-750 accuracy?

[OmnysValefor]

Not accounting for accessories, an eminent soft-melee (mnk/thf/etc) should have 75 acc from 102 dex. Checkparamming myself puts me at 696 naked with an eninent dagger (thf/war) that I had. So 771, + accessories, + cheap food.

850 is easy to obtain without JSE weapon. One acc ring (or two, /shrug), acc neck.

And there's always JSE/Delve (if your server does them)/Low tier UNMs/HTBF for better acc weapons.

Also, I found +32 acc on my gear that I wasn't accounting for, which I edited into my last post.

[Catmato]

Not accounting for accessories, an eminent soft-melee (mnk/thf/etc) should have 75 acc from 102 dex. Checkparamming myself puts me at 696 naked with an eninent dagger (thf/war) that I had. So 771, + accessories, + cheap food.

DEX isn't already figured into checkparam accuracy?

[Kensagaku]

If I'm interpreting him correctly, he had 696 with base stats and only dagger, and that 102 dex listed is from a full set of Espial gear. (22 head, 27 body, 33 hands, 0 legs, 20 feet). So 696 is before that extra 75 acc worth of DEX found on Espial gear.

[OmnysValefor]

Yes, Ken's right. I was stating my naked accuracy with only a weapon equipped and the accuracy I would gain from the dexterity found on gear.

Yes, /checkparam compiles accuracy from all sources. You'll see it go up if you get Ionis, or eat acc food or sub dancer for Accuracy Bonus (10 accuracy) or are affected by a geo bubble or bard song.

[Catmato]

Ah, yes. I missed the "eminent soft melee" part.

[Xantavia]

Don't get too hung up on cp per kill, but also think about the effort taken to kill the mobs. I tend to solo on twitherym in Outer? Ra'Kaznar and get between 1500-5000, depending on rings and chains. Think I just broke the 250 mark on thf, so have some bonuses from that. Haven't finished SoA or the final Rhapsodies, but got the passive bonuses for finishing the other missions.

Basically, I may not earn a ton per kill compared to other options, but I can kill mobs fast with little to no danger to myself. And since 99.9% of my playtime in the past year or so is solo, I'm not hurting anybody else by not being a "job master" yet. Play for maybe an hour or two a day, end up with 3-4 JP just knocking out daily RoE goals.

[Hoshi]

You'll also get some bonus acc inside of escha from dex vorseals and acc vorseals. I'm not sure how many dex vorseals you can get from outside content but you can get dragon clears for the acc vorseals without too much trouble.

[Numquam]

I agree with this wholeheartedly; it is very disheartening that starting players or returning cannot accumulate Capacity Points at a quicker pace. When the system was first introduced, the amounts were far less, but the methods were less complicated. Now, you have to possess certain jobs with specific amounts of gear. Oh, how I miss the days you could just toss a party together and go after mobs. I mean toss a working party together when you don't have BLU/BST/or a magic bursting job.

[zataz]

as i have said in another topic.... its the quality of the people u deal with. my ls runs cp link only party's and u can go almost anything and get it done.
u know my link would rather take a trust then shout for a person lol.

[machini]

Part of the problem, Zataz, is getting into a linkshell in the first place if you play the "wrong" job(s).

[zataz]

i can honestly say that my linkshell does not reject anyone based on a job. but they will if u don't listen and learn. we just get people who are on and go do stuff people need. its not about being the best it is about trying to have fun.

[machini]

Zataz, I'm gonna say this as nicely as I possibly can: Good for you. You are not the problem. But just because you are not a part of the problem does not mean the problem does not exist.

[zataz]

my point i'm trying to make is that this linkshell exist cause someone wanted what it offers why not do the same?

also don't be afraid to kick people who do not fit the mold.

[Vinedrai]

Honestly, exaggeration is strong with this thread. CP you would get solo is nothing to scoff at and it comes with the freedom you wouldn't have in a hardcore cp party session which is pretty great for such an old game (and thus, mostly mature playerbase) which is leaning towards casual and even solo gameplay for solid reasons. I am pretty sure there are very few kids around anymore who has all the free time to party for hours without worrying about their sleep time, family, job etc.

About the cp rate starting slow; That applies to everybody, not only "wrong jobs". I have finished BLU and GEO, and I HATE starting over on WHM with very little cp gift, but that is how the system was designed. Everybody starts slow, it has nothing to do with people being selective for certain jobs. Back in the old days, it was MUCH MUCH worse than the current situation. For anyone who remembers the merit pt job favoritism back in the day, the current options to progress are simply amazing in comparison.

Also do you realize how squishy most reisenjima mobs are? You don't need augmented reisenjima or new abjuration armor at all to blaze through them.

You need accuracy? Zitah augmentable stuff offers much more than enough acc. Sublime sushi alone is 100 acc. It is not like you are engaging a reisenjima T4 for cp.

If you want to cp with a melee pt, go ahead and cp in a gates II area or in reisenjima, bring a few DDs, fill the rest with trusts and kill anything in sight, roam if you have to. Leave the apex parties to those who can abuse the absurd power of mb setups (oh and btw, it isn't like you level a nuker job and oneshot them with sparks gear).

If everybody was able to do everything at the same efficiency level, would that not be very boring? Some people just can't seem to look at the bright side. We loved this game because of its unique job selection-oriented gameplay. There has always been cheaper setups that favored some jobs over the others and that is not even necessarily a bad thing by default. That means different jobs are able to do different things at different efficiency levels.

If you aren't willing to put the effort and gil in to get cp faster, it means you are just whining for the sake of whining.

[machini]

Apex parties are doable with melee jobs. It's just "hard" to do them like that.

[Vinedrai]

Apex parties are doable with melee jobs. It's just "hard" to do them like that.

Well, yes. It is doable without a party set for mb, but painfully slower and totally not worth it. I used to solo apex raptors on blu with trusts for a short while, spamming self lights and having Shantotto II mb them (yes, blu is kinda in its own category, but the point stands), but cping on squishy mobs with ANY job in Reisenjima is perfectly fine. Let's look at whm. You don't have the means to melee? Fine, sub /sch, put on some mab gear, turn on dark arts, call some nuker trusts, spam Blizzard II, profit. You can't seem to find a cp pt on BRD? Fine, go melee, seriously. BRD has so many melee options and also very good dagger WSs and the fact that you would be using daggers means mosquitos, ladybugs and hippogryphs in Reisenjima would take more damage.

[Catmato]

cping on squishy mobs with ANY job in Reisenjima is perfectly fine. Let's look at whm. You don't have the means to melee? Fine, sub /sch, put on some mab gear, turn on dark arts, call some nuker trusts, spam Blizzard II, profit. You can't seem to find a cp pt on BRD? Fine, go melee, seriously. BRD has so many melee options and also very good dagger WSs and the fact that you would be using daggers means mosquitos, ladybugs and hippogryphs in Reisenjima would take more damage.

What Trust setup would you use on a 119 strictly melee job for someone just starting out?

[Vinedrai]

What Trust setup would you use on a 119 strictly melee job for someone just starting out?

This is a very subjective matter, but I would say; "Tank, healer, Qultada, Ulmia, Koru" or King of hearts or "tank, healer, Qultada, 2 nukers", depending how well equipped you are. As you get stronger, the former setup would outweigh the latter.

[MDenham]

With that first setup, you're probably better off with a DD instead of the tank. It makes sense to have a tank when you're using nukers or RNGs (not to keep them alive, but to keep the mob in one place), but in a setup where you have three or four support trusts, you'll want the remaining slot or two to help kill faster (and keeping the mob stationary isn't really required because everyone's close in).