Keeping content relevant

[Celebrimbor]

There is a rich and plentiful library of wonderful content yielding an awesome variety of level 75 equipment, it is a shame for that content to go to waste.
There should be 75 cap dungeon instances of Beadeaux, Davoi, and Castle Oztroja, with NMs inside leading up to a Boss. These 75 cap dungeon crawls would yield Item level 119 equipment. The dungeons should be hard, requiring 12-18 people well geared, and the rewards should reflect that difficulty. This will make all the old content relevant again, people will want salvage sets and 75 abj gear, and will make linkshells relevant again as well, requiring an alliance to beat it.

[Catmato]

I'm not sure about those zones, but I do support making more level-capped content, as long as it's relevant (read: drops 119 gear). We spent too much time at 75, let us use some of that gear again.

[Pixela]

Honestly what they should do is add avenues for people to solo/ duo /trust stuff like this in a longer route to get good 119 gear. The geared players, or players with contacts / linkshell can still do it the faster way and the "scrubs" can gear up at a much slower pace to possibly get to the point they are acceptable to the minority for inclusion.

The current system still favors the minority and leaves the majority out in the cold, there is no slope to gear up anymore.

FFXI these days is mostly centered around mercing content, because there simply is no slope to build yourself up. It's sad that the last ABJ rainbow event put more endgame gear on players than the previous year of normal play did.

Also keep in mind that alliance content on a server that isn't Asura and Odin is not going to work, and server merges are not going to happen.

[OmnysValefor]

That's more or less what they've been doing for years.

Limbus II, Dynamis II, NNI (for their day).

UNMs are frequently straight upgrades (or very near it) from classic NMs and so are several Escha NMs. High-Tier Battlefields are also in the spirit of this.

---

So what you're asking is not for keeping content relevant, which they've been doing, but for keeping old gear relevant.

If this old content is hard (as it should be), then it's important to properly gear. What's that mean? I need to go refarm AF+1 gear, relic gear? Maybe they can just scale back the 119/109 versions of AF,ETC in these zones, but I need to buy another Scorpion Harness, Haubergeon, and Dusk Gear? I need HMP sets (bye bye Refresh II). I can barely manage the space to properly gear the jobs I have.

Not to mention how much RUN and GEO would change the landscape of the contest.

Finally, and most importantly, most populations are not healthy enough to stock alliance-level content especially when you're expecting these new 99s to have brutal--admittedly you probably should have this one anyway, loquacious, boxer's mantle, resist sets (gross).

[Alhanelem]

I don't think it's a good idea to make any more content requiring more than one full party anymore, it's just too difficult to get a group together unless you belong to a strong, established clique.

Content doesn't have to require a ton of people to be challenging.

[Kincard]

Content requiring more than one party does have its advantages. Content requiring large groups is more fun to experiment with, because there's more flexibility in group building. True, the larger community will usually just find the one easiest strategy and double down on it, but that applies to any content, really.

Not sure how I feel about the proposal for making 75 items useful again, though, given that most of us have reforged and/or thrown away all our 75 gear. While I agree there are some things about the 75 cap that made combat more interesting (Omnys pretty much listed all of them), things like inventory woes and the need to recollect 75 gear don't sound very appealing to me.

[Alhanelem]

Not sure how I feel about the proposal for making 75 items useful againWell they've already offered high tier versions of 75 (and earlier) items via unity NMs. That's fine, I don't see the point in making old 75 items "relevant again" when equivalents exist in many cases for 119. Sounds to me like some people just dont want to do the work.

[Alhanelem]

I don't consider artificially limiting myself to beat old content a test of skill, because that test is meaningless against the game as a whole. I've done ENMs before (which are the same now as they were ages ago) and I wouldn't describe it as "white knuckle excitement." They're decent fights for sure, but not any easier or harder than max level content is at max level.

I personally know no one deliberately limiting themselves to a certain level. I know I'd never do it, because I don't see how that affects the fun factor. Doing 75 content at 75 vs doing max level content at max level, I don't see the difference.

I mean, if you enjoy it, power to you, but I can't see SE investing time in something that such a minority would care about. They never fixed ballista or pankration, never finished monstrosity, all niche contents that only a fairly small group cared about, so I wouldn't have much expectaiton about this. THe most likely outcome is taking more 75 content and scaling it up to i119. If the experience is the same, what does it matter what the number next to the letters 'lv' says?

[Stompa]

I don't consider artificially limiting myself to beat old content a test of skill, because that test is meaningless against the game as a whole. I've done ENMs before (which are the same now as they were ages ago) and I wouldn't describe it as "white knuckle excitement." They're decent fights for sure, but not any easier or harder than max level content is at max level.

I personally know no one deliberately limiting themselves to a certain level. I know I'd never do it, because I don't see how that affects the fun factor. Doing 75 content at 75 vs doing max level content at max level, I don't see the difference.

I mean, if you enjoy it, power to you, but I can't see SE investing time in something that such a minority would care about. They never fixed ballista or pankration, never finished monstrosity, all niche contents that only a fairly small group cared about, so I wouldn't have much expectaiton about this. THe most likely outcome is taking more 75 content and scaling it up to i119. If the experience is the same, what does it matter what the number next to the letters 'lv' says?


On the difference between 119 play and 75 play ; they are like two different games.

119 Mages have statbomb gear and loads of DT gear, they can nuke like crazy, take hate and even tank mobs. On 75 you would need Rdm/nin and skills and strategies to survive taking hate as a mage.

Lvl 75 content you can't just throw HQ GEOs and SCHs at everything. The level 75 gear and abilities don't support this.

So level 75 content is intrinsically based around a mix of jobs, and heavily reliant on strategy. At 75 I have to gear swap a lot, for the STR+6 bonus or whatever, because my gear is not statbombed with attributes everywhere. There is a lot less room for error at 75, because of the more basic gear and abilities, you have to play a tight game or you get KO on your first error. I found the 119 game was a lot more forgiving of errors (in most cases).

Reasons to want to play 75 content. Some people prefer the old areas, lottery-pop NMs, WOTG Campaigns, etc. And those areas are dead to you if you are on 119, the mobs are TW/EP and the bosses get oneshotted. On 75 it is a fun and challenging adventure again.

So again, I wasn't suggesting SE add more 75 stuff, because we know that is not going to happen. I was just pointing out that there already is a whole world out there which provides adventures for level 75 players, and it is now possible to build a mule char to 75 really quickly, if a person wanted to occasionally go play in the 75 old areas/content. I do know about eight people who do this, including myself.

[Alhanelem]

Lvl 75 content you can't just throw HQ GEOs and SCHs at everything. The level 75 gear and abilities don't support this.No, instead you threw SAMs and BRDs at everything.


they are like two different games. The difference is mostly in the existence of new jobs since the core of the 75 era. Yeah, some new mechanics came along, but the gameplay and combat itself is not different.



So level 75 content is intrinsically based around a mix of jobs,No it's not. If you think we used a greater mix of jobs at 75, then you didn't really play much in that era... I maxed at least one job per expansion and spent literally all day waiting for parties sometimes. PUP wasn't wanted in the slightest until audolin, SMN was sometimes wanted for content but never for EXP, SCH and DNC were not very popular either; GEO was the first new job I leveled that ended up being wanted.


Some people prefer the old areasWhy? What's wrong with the new areas? they are all designed pretty well to me (barring the usual cryptic crap and one way paths th at are in many original areas...)


lottery-pop NMs,Lottery pops were always, always, always a bad system, at any level. The smug satisfaction of winning a claim was completely outweighed by the hours of waiting and praying that you could overcome the bots the other parties were (allegedly) using. The only people (IMO) who liked them were the ones that exploited to win them more often. Personally, I want to fight things. Not wait for and then watch other people fight things. The fun should be in the fight itself.


And those areas are dead to you if you are on 119, the mobs are TW/EP and the bosses get oneshotted.That's totally fine by me, because there are plenty of challenges and not TW/EP mobs in newer areas. It's just part of the evolution of an MMO. Even pre audolin, a new expansion meant existing content fell in popularity (although perhaps not to the same degree, the point remains). Stat creep still existed, it was just slower. the original 75 content got easier with every expansion- because there was "I just hit 75" lv75 content, and "i've beaten all the content" lv75- if 119 and not 119 are like seperate games, so too then were early 75 and late 75.

Scaled versions of content are available all over, not just in new areas, and I think they should keep doing that. I don't like level sync or other artificial feeling means of making something harder than it is.

[Ketaru]

So level 75 content is intrinsically based around a mix of jobs, and heavily reliant on strategy. At 75 I have to gear swap a lot, for the STR+6 bonus or whatever, because my gear is not statbombed with attributes everywhere. There is a lot less room for error at 75, because of the more basic gear and abilities, you have to play a tight game or you get KO on your first error. I found the 119 game was a lot more forgiving of errors (in most cases).

That's kind of an overexaggeration. On RDM, when I'm soloing stuff, if I switch to magic-oriented gear to cast enfeebles or something, my accuracy very noticably goes down. If you're not experiencing this, it's because you're fighting mobs well below your capacity.



Lottery pops were always, always, always a bad system, at any level. The smug satisfaction of winning a claim was completely outweighed by the hours of waiting and praying that you could overcome the bots the other parties were (allegedly) using. The only people (IMO) who liked them were the ones that exploited to win them more often. Personally, I want to fight things. Not wait for and then watch other people fight things. The fun should be in the fight itself.

It's as though somebody has finally seen reason. I've criticized this about the old NMs time and time again, yet people clung to the legitimacy of this system like battered wives with Stockholm Syndrome.


Scaled versions of content are available all over, not just in new areas, and I think they should keep doing that. I don't like level sync or other artificial feeling means of making something harder than it is.

At this point, they should probably keep on doing that (especially when there are still content from WotG that could use iLevel equivalents). We should even be glad they provide the content to be experienced at a range of levels. If you're playing a job that is weaker at soloing, you can enter higher tier battlefields at a lower level. If you want a challenge with other players, you can opt for the Very Difficult setting. Content designed like that ensures there is accessibility for everybody.

[OmnysValefor]

IF they did introduce 75-cap content, they'd probably reorient what level GEO and RUN attain some abilities and they'd throw an array of handbell/geomancy+ gear to make GEO valid.

---

Guys, level 75 gear frequently sucked. A lot of melee, who cared to build PDT sets, were wearing things like "Darksteel Subligar +1" (DEF:29 Light/Dark +3, PDT-3%) or the NQ. Arhat's, a beautiful mnk/sam/nin PDT set was also only about PDT and Enmity+ and Arhat's Gi +1 was probably the best among the terrible selection. Haste, you remember haste? Haste cap wasn't even a concern for most players in their gear sets, whereas my paladin can now simultaneously pdt cap, haste cap and have fair accuracy (with food) in 119 content (So Zitah t1s/t2s~).

The much better approach to reliving the old content is how they're doing it, making bigger versions of the old fights. The only reason this sits so poorly with so many people is that everything is nuked. This just means they need to rebalance content.

[Alhanelem]

Different people like different things. Well, on that, I totally agree. I'm just trying to come to some kind of understanding about why some people like particular things. Don't take my comments to mean "STOP LIKING WHAT I DONT LIKE!" - Even if I don't agree with something, I like to understand why it is others feel the way they do.

Like the lottery pop system. I can't imagine why anyone likes this. Without a guide (wiki) or someone to tell you how it works, the average player will probably have no idea what's actually happening. not know that a specific mob spawn is a placeholder for a special enemy, and even if they do know, you could kill that PH for hours an d never see anything. I'm just really struggling to understand what's fun about this. It doesn't make any kind of logical or even fantasy sense that one particular ordinary monster out of a crowd of ordinary monsters is acting as a stand in for some overlord.

But really, the job variety point is indisputable. While the jobs we're using the most now are different from the jobs we used the most back then, the problem has ALWAYS existed, and in fact it's only natural that the playerbase will gravitate over time to a handful of jobs deemed the most efficient.

[Olor]

Honestly what they should do is add avenues for people to solo/ duo /trust stuff like this in a longer route to get good 119 gear. The geared players, or players with contacts / linkshell can still do it the faster way and the "scrubs" can gear up at a much slower pace to possibly get to the point they are acceptable to the minority for inclusion.

The current system still favors the minority and leaves the majority out in the cold, there is no slope to gear up anymore.

FFXI these days is mostly centered around mercing content, because there simply is no slope to build yourself up. .

Yep, this is what kills my will to play.

[machini]

Yep, this is what kills my will to play.

The fact that there's only a handful of jobs that can even participate in content even when well geared doesn't help, either. Or that even when you can do a thing with other set ups, you're doing it "wrong" if you do.

[Alhanelem]

I don't see all this mercing you speak of. There's easily obtainable 117+ gear, that helps you get early 119 gear, that helps you get later 119 gear... seems like there's a slope to me.

[machini]

I don't see all this mercing you speak of. There's easily obtainable 117+ gear, that helps you get early 119 gear, that helps you get later 119 gear... seems like there's a slope to me.

An awful lot of people won't take people in 117 gear for anything. I've seen a lot of a specific problem which is "we will not take you for content X unless you have gear from contentX+1 or equivalent." Like the time I got told off for suggesting we take a 119 mythic MNK on a tojil run over a MNK with oatixur because "oatixur is the best you noob". It's like people who refuse to take you into alluvion skirmish unless you're already in alluvion skirmish armor.

You cannot pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

[Vae]

An awful lot of people won't take people in 117 gear for anything. I've seen a lot of a specific problem which is "we will not take you for content X unless you have gear from contentX+1 or equivalent." Like the time I got told off for suggesting we take a 119 mythic MNK on a tojil run over a MNK with oatixur because "oatixur is the best you noob". It's like people who refuse to take you into alluvion skirmish unless you're already in alluvion skirmish armor.

You cannot pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.

Well, let's be completely honest, if you can find 2 competent humans, and you all have "usable" jobs with the worst 119 gear, there's basically nothing you can't do or obtain.

I'll give you that finding 2 not complete retards, is essentially impossible... unless a player quits leaving an opening.

There is literally nothing 3 people can't do (that you really need to bother with). Yeah 3 can't finish an Aeonic, who cares. Bother with things that matter.

You can literally start a new account right now, be 99 by midnight, solo some skirmish, get zitah 119, and start working on Risenjima gear with your 2 competent players. Yeah THE BEST gear, is out of your reach, it's always been. Nothing has changed. If you have nothing to want, you have no reason to play.

That's why i'm re-quitting. No interest in the Aeonics, the current meta doesn't do "it" for me.

[dmuller30]

The problem still comes down to finding 2 competent players that are able to play with you when you are playing. I have friends that help me but they are never on when I am but sometimes on rare occasions. I am a returning player, and only after a year the game has changed so much. I shout all day and get no replies to get the said gear you are talking about sometimes I wait days to get any help at all. I think solo instances would be perfect for under geared players striving to get the gear they need at a slower pace would be perfect that would have helped me a ton. As far as grouping I couldn't get into anything because my Sparks gear just wasn't cutting it. The only sure fire way to get into anything is go GEO, WHM, COR which aren't really gear restrictive jobs but I don't really want to do any of those. So in conclusion solo instances would be nice and if you have a group it could be done faster :D.

[Alhanelem]

An awful lot of people won't take people in 117 gear for anything.You don't need anyone to take you for anything. You can do easy things on it to get your first 119 things, and with that you can get into the early 119 content ad do BCs on lower difficulties and then gradually move in to other things. I actally think it's a bigger issue if people don't have job points, but you don't need help for that either (though it will be slower...)

[OmnysValefor]

I dunno, I help a lot of people kill T1s because I see one or two or three i117 people having trouble, unless they're on the right jobs and the best-geared within that that they can be. And the worse part is, the jobs change from NM to NM, unless you have such overpowered help that they can make up for improper jobs. ("such overpowered" is relatively easy to achieve, many many players are geared to this point)

Before someone trolls me about saying this stuff is hard, I don't find this stuff as hard at all, but I can see returning players stuck with nothing but returning players having a lot lot lot of problems.

The Rawhide NMs
Tengata Manu - Heavy wind damage, want an Aegis or a RUN, as well as a good whm with capped enhancing (not that capping enhancing is hard). I'm pretty sure she constantly dispels buffs, as mobs of that family often do
Vidala - Want a NIN tank (less tp feed) but Gessho will work. His stonegas don't hurt at all but you need nukers to delevel him when he levels up. PLD or RUN would probably work alright, but it's going to be harder than NIN or say dnc/nin. Trust nukers don't work because wind magic isn't 100% guaranteed to delevel him with each cast, and trusts cast pretty much whatever they want.
Gestalt - Want a PLD or RUN and attentive melee, dread spikes can kill a DD pretty fast if unlucky with TA.
Angrboda - PLD or RUN. AOEs can probably one shot melee DD in i117 gear without dt sets.
Cunnast - Lol, this guy. Back when my breath kit was around 35%, I was sometimes getting oneshot by him and so was Amchuchu.

I wasn't playing when Zitah came out, but I'm sure many groups did this in a mix of 119/115 gear (Delve/WKR/Skirmish/JSE) and did great but there's a wide wide difference between the quality of that gear and freebie Eminent stuff. I do know firsthand that returning tanks can't fall back on their 99 -dt gear because the lack of defensive stats gained from ilvl (eva/def, m.eva/m.def, bonuses to base stats, hp) really really hurts. I was, for about a week, stuck in this awkward place where my once-prized gear sucked, but eminent sucked too.

There is also, as we all know, a tremendous advantage having humans over trusts, most of the time, except when Apururu is in the mood to -na you as the debuff is landing or stunbot-capable Zeid and Ullegore.

[Ketaru]

I dunno, I help a lot of people kill T1s because I see one or two or three i117 people having trouble, unless they're on the right jobs and the best-geared within that that they can be.

I'm probably pointing out something that nobody wants to admit, but they really shouldn't be doing that content. The only content they should be worried about is getting starter 119 gear- reforging AF, Alluvion Skirmish, things like that. Even getting the 117 Bayld gear, which is better than that trashy Records of Eminence stuff.

The problem I see here is people returning to the game- perhaps iLevels weren't even around when they left- and they immediately want to jump straight to current endgame content. And it just doesn't work like that. There is a fairly delineated progression of gear: 117 RoE Gear->Alluvion Skirmish/Reforged AF->Escha Zi'tah->Escha Ru'Aun. Yes, that kinda sucks if you just came back and want to do things with your friends now. But the content and trusts are there to allow you to get caught up at a deliberate pace. Some people however are just trying to go from 0 to 100 just like that.

[Pups323]

To counter point that, a fresh group of i117 people is more than capable of farming full suits of alluvian and getting full i119 in <1 day. From there they can start zi tah, and again, in less than 1 day replace that full suit of i119 alluvian armor with i119 zi tah armor.

Why not skip the middle man and go straight to zi tah, 1 decent i119 can usually cary a group of i117 RoE people through enough zi tah NM to gear up.

[Ketaru]

Because "Throw yourself at content too high for you until a passerby takes pity on you" is sound advice.

[Pups323]

But its not too hard for you.

Zi tah is very very easy on t1, which is were 99% of the armor is. You make it out to be like you are taking level 40s to level 75 content... Were talking about level i117 to level i119 content that can be done with 1 person and 5 trusts.

I am not saying take i117s to t3/helm nms or do go straight to resinjeme... get off your high horse

[OmnysValefor]

I avoid Skirmish because I dislike the nature of the augments system. *lixir augments are the best, and Rei augments are cool, but I just don't like forcing people to suffer a lopsided system.

[Olor]

I avoid Skirmish because I dislike the nature of the augments system. *lixir augments are the best, and Rei augments are cool, but I just don't like forcing people to suffer a lopsided system.

Yeah this. I wish I had spent the money that I wasted on augments on mercs instead (stones were "free" but I could have sold them)

And sorry I have most of a 119 skirmish set, as well as relic and AF reforges and I can't solo Zitah... I've spent tons of money on augs but have had really crummy luck. I also don't have any tank jobs (nin, pld etc) leveled, let alone geared.

[machini]

To counter point that, a fresh group of i117 people is more than capable of farming full suits of alluvian and getting full i119 in <1 day. From there they can start zi tah, and again, in less than 1 day replace that full suit of i119 alluvian armor with i119 zi tah armor.

Why not skip the middle man and go straight to zi tah, 1 decent i119 can usually cary a group of i117 RoE people through enough zi tah NM to gear up.

With what combat and magic skills?

Also, Alluvion Skirmish armor is crap without the augments. Its base stats were designed with the idea that it would/could be augmented in mind. Which means even more skirmish to farm stones, 'cause you sure as hell aren't gonna be able to properly augment it in the time frame you give, including leveling.

[machini]

And to be specific, it took me roughly 10 days to get someone from brand new 99 BLU to "I can participate in Apex parties and am actually useful in relevant content." That was with me carrying them through an awful lot of stuff, and helping with skill ups via providing books.

Getting to 99 and getting to 'useful in end game content' 119 is nowhere near as simple as you think it is, especially for a returning player who might have quit at 75 cap, let alone a brand new player who has no idea what anything does or how anything works.

This feels like, yet again, another instance of people failing to understand that not everyone has a functional grasp of the game, the mechanics, or that a brand new player who has never played the game before will not know how to speedily climb up through the gear to relevant end game content in a relevant job in a quick fashion.

I also feel it very important to point out that one of the items I helped that player get was a Defending Ring, all with shanks that I provided myself. Getting started in this game and getting up to speed as a new or returning pre-item level player is an enormous task. If I had to create a new character from scratch and get back to where I am right now, ignoring making another mythic, I know I could not do it in 24 hours. I maybe could do it in a week if I played sixteen hours a day. The amount of effort and time required to get to 99, skill up, work my way up through item level gear to decent 119, collect ~90 pieces of gear for a single job, obtain multiple mulitimillion gil HQ crafted items and drops, etc, etc, is insanely more difficult than you seem to think.

[Olor]

You'd be pretty amazing to do it in a week.

[machini]

Most of the stuff I'd need to buy (ignoring the mythic and the D Ring) I could probably afford after converting all those sparks into gil.

[Alhanelem]

The problem I see here is people returning to the game- perhaps iLevels weren't even around when they left- and they immediately want to jump straight to current endgame content. And it just doesn't work like that.I don't know why some ppl do seem to respond like this, because if you quit like right after reaching level 7 5 early on, and then you try to do TOAU or pre-80+ Wings stuff, it's brutal. Not quite to the same degree, but you would struggle. People should expect that if they've been gone a long time, they won't be able to dive right into endgame.

[OmnysValefor]

In Old XI, there were, for years, people at all stages of content and it was easy enough to find a group. There were also other things to do.

Now, you're either 119*, or you're nothing. On smaller servers, it's difficult to find other people who are near your level of progress especially after you weed out people who die to spike spells every single time, people who can't work with a skillchain, etc, and people with incompatible playtimes.

When I was leveling, I met a 75 BLM that I thought was God basically. He was amazing. Turns out, he came back a few weeks ago and I could have left him to trying to acquire the gear on his own, but the slope is sooo steep. A lot of those NMs will smash through a party of ideal trusts, let alone non-ideal trusts (Been back six months, still haven't gotten Koru-Moru or Amchuchu).

I have yet to try to squeeze him into anything remotely difficult but I've been working hard to get him there.

[Olor]

In Old XI, there were, for years, people at all stages of content and it was easy enough to find a group. There were also other things to do.

Now, you're either 119*, or you're nothing.

This, this is the issue. Not being able to do hard content means basically being able to do nothing except solo. And trying to solo your way to the point where you're not embarrassing on hard content is soul-crushing... and that assumes you even know how to do it. I am not as out of date as some but I still don't really understand the newer systems that I have never gotten to try.

[zataz]

I don't think it's a good idea to make any more content requiring more than one full party anymore, it's just too difficult to get a group together unless you belong to a strong, established clique.

Content doesn't have to require a ton of people to be challenging.

i agree with this

[zataz]

This, this is the issue. Not being able to do hard content means basically being able to do nothing except solo. And trying to solo your way to the point where you're not embarrassing on hard content is soul-crushing... and that assumes you even know how to do it. I am not as out of date as some but I still don't really understand the newer systems that I have never gotten to try.
i will help just about anyone. with that said if u cant be bothered to look something up and know what your doing fight/mission wise why should i help u. no one can help u more then u >.>

[detlef]

Content for 1 PT is great, but please please please reduce the penalty for bringing more people. It's got to be possible for content to be optimal for a single PT without neutering larger groups. Right now, a group of 18 would be crazy not to split into 2-3 groups. But that means more specialization, more jobs left in the cold, and less new people being brought along (the penalty is so high that it makes sense to leave people out). Also, would you rather have a group of 18 occupying 3 spawn points or just 1? They're already gimping themselves by sharing a comparatively smaller loot pool.

[zataz]

my linkshell brings a dragoon and a dark knight to vagary and escha zones when there on. and we win so who's being left out =P. its the players not the content.....

[detlef]

my linkshell brings a dragoon and a dark knight to vagary and escha zones when there on. and we win so who's being left out =P. its the players not the content.....That's great but I don't think Vagary scales with group size.

Upon re-reading, I notice you said Escha too. My greater point is that your bigger group means more HP, and you're not making up the difference with the additional people for various reasons. You're either losing skillchain damage or you're losing magic damage to cumulative resists (or whatever the term is). You're just penalized way too much for bringing more people (especially when the drops per participant goes down).

Also, if you go to a PT size you're much more limited in terms of what you can bring whereas you can find room for a much wider variety of jobs simultaneously in an alliance.

[zataz]

we go with what we have at the time and make it work (and yes we win) it at no point matters whats "best" i did fail to say out link is only 6-8 people >.>

[detlef]

we go with what we have at the time and make it work (and yes we win) it at no point matters whats "best" i did fail to say out link is only 6-8 people >.>Sounds great. But I'm talking about something closer to a full alliance. As you know, this makes it significantly harder for less reward.