which is better triplus or rapidus?

[hordecore]

for using along with thieves knife

[Khajit]

After you put the th on you dont have to wear thf knife so your question is unnecessary even if there are better dagger combos,

[hordecore]

what do you mean ?

[Arcon]

Triplus Dagger mainhand, Thief's Knife offhand.

[Khajit]

what do you mean ?
Your TH level doesn't go down after you take off the knife. So basically all you have to do is stick th on to the monster with all your TH gear then put on real gear.

[hordecore]

doesnt ur TH goes up each time u hit the MOnster?

[Arcon]

doesnt ur TH goes up each time u hit the MOnster?

Yes, but it does that even without TH gear. TH gear is only needed to get high base TH on the mob, once. After that is done, even hits in normal gear will increase the level.

[Karbuncle]

doesnt ur TH goes up each time u hit the MOnster?

Treasure Hunter has a chance to Increase with Each Successive hit. Sneak Attack hits, and Trick Attack hits, have a higher chance to upgrade the Level of Treasure Hunter.

Your base Level of Treasure Hunter is determined by your Base TH, Plus Gear. For instance:

A Player with Treasure Hunter II, when Striking a mob, Would inflict "Treasure Hunter Lv. 2" on the Enemy. Upon which each upgrade would increase it by 1.

A Player with TH2 trait, Thief's Knife, and Assassin Armlets would inflict "Treasure Hunter Lv 4" on the Enemy, and so on.

The highest grade of Treasure Hunter will always be applied as a base, and a lower level Treasure Hunter cannot be applied. Example.

Player A has TH7 (Treasure Hunter III, Hands, Feet, Knife, and Atma).
Player B has TH4 (Treasure Hunter III, Knife.)

If Player A hits Enemy, It will apply TH7 base. Player B Cannot lower it to TH4 if he hits it. The highest Treasure Hunter always takes precedence. In the same light, if Player B hits first, It apply TH4, If Player A then act, It will Upgrade to TH7.

Lastly, Once you make an action on the Enemy getting on its Hatelist, You can De-Equip All of your Treasure Hunter gear and continue to Melee in your DD Set, and the Highest level of TH Applied will still be Active, Even if you're the only THF in the party.

Edit: And as for your Question. For all intents and Purposes, Triplus Dagger is a Superior weapon.

[Babygyrl]

doesnt ur TH goes up each time u hit the MOnster?

Yes TH increases overtime when you continue to melee the mob but you dot not need ur th gear on for the level to increase since its a natural thief trait all you do is put on urth gear for first hit then change ot better stuff and go to town in hopes of th increasing.

[hordecore]

can i get +11 without relic hands?

[Karbuncle]

can i get +11 without relic hands?

I believe you would be able too. However the Chances are incredibly Slim as it would require the Enemy to live a very long time, Or for you to get incredibly lucky with Treasure Hunter Upgrade procs.

[Frost]

Has there been any testing done yet that show any relation to the rate of additional levels of Treasure Hunter and wearing Treasure Hunter gear?

IF Treasure Hunter gear does affect the frequency at which the effectiveness increases, would it offset the gain one could attain be using a lower delay weapon and hitting more frequently?

[Karbuncle]

Has there been any testing done yet that show any relation to the rate of additional levels of Treasure Hunter and wearing Treasure Hunter gear?

IF Treasure Hunter gear does affect the frequency at which the effectiveness increases, would it offset the gain one could attain be using a lower delay weapon and hitting more frequently?

I have not seen any tests. However when I'm doing things i want drops for, Like REALLY want them for, I generally Equip my TH Gear during SA/TA, Its shown good results But Its far from confirmed and I wouldn't advocate it.

[Capn]

Has there been any testing done yet that show any relation to the rate of additional levels of Treasure Hunter and wearing Treasure Hunter gear?

IF Treasure Hunter gear does affect the frequency at which the effectiveness increases, would it offset the gain one could attain be using a lower delay weapon and hitting more frequently?

Honestly, there's more evidence that AF3 hands give a boost to sneak attack and trick attack procing a TH+1 than any TH gear does...

I would listen to what SE has already told us about the gear. A thf with TH6 (TH3 base +hands +dagger +atma) hits the mob, the mob now has TH6. Thf unequips dagger and hands, and uses sneak attack, procs TH+1 giving the mob TH7..... etc...

[Capn]

Also, to answer OPs Q

Twilight main - Triplus off

/thread

[Kasandaro]

Has there been any testing done yet that show any relation to the rate of additional levels of Treasure Hunter and wearing Treasure Hunter gear?

My eyeballed anecdata says it doesn't, but I have neither seen nor run any parse, let alone one long enough to be statistically significant.


IF Treasure Hunter gear does affect the frequency at which the effectiveness increases, would it offset the gain one could attain be using a lower delay weapon and hitting more frequently?

TH =/= DPS. Apples and chicken egg comparison, that. Unless you're specifically farming fast mobs for a specific drop and you're trying to calculate Drops per Damage-over-Time. In which case, it depends on the mob's hp, the amount of TH gear, the item's native drop rate...

[hordecore]

Also, to answer OPs Q

Twilight main - Triplus off

/thread


is twashtar worth getting?

[Laphine]

is twashtar worth getting?

If you want to push your limits higher on thf, certainly. If mandau changed thf back at 75 cap, Twash can do the same.

On triplus vs rapidus. Rapidus is a worthwhile weapon to keep around, and it will outdo Triplus if acc is an issue. Acc needs happens more often than people account for and any end tier heroes of the abyssea nm gives us problems.

[Karbuncle]

If you want to push your limits higher on thf, certainly. If mandau changed thf back at 75 cap, Twash can do the same.

On triplus vs rapidus. Rapidus is a worthwhile weapon to keep around, and it will outdo Triplus if acc is an issue. Acc needs happens more often than people account for and any end tier heroes of the abyssea nm gives us problems.

There is a big debate on Rudra's VS Mercy stroke on the level 90 Weapons somewhere on FFXIAH. If i recall the Damage was in favor of Rudra's a small amount, But over-all Mandau's DPS (due to not needing to use Rudra's to active additional damage) was superior. Especially considering tha Attack boost on Mandau. So in the end i think Mandau pulled ahead. The debate covered Inside and Outside Abyssea.

So if you're looking into a Relic/Empyrean, I'd work on Mandau, Cause i think SE is going to do more for Relics by the time 99 comes around.

[Laphine]

There is a big debate on Rudra's VS Mercy stroke on the level 90 Weapons somewhere on FFXIAH. If i recall the Damage was in favor of Rudra's a small amount, But over-all Mandau's DPS (due to not needing to use Rudra's to active additional damage) was superior. Especially considering tha Attack boost on Mandau. So in the end i think Mandau pulled ahead. The debate covered Inside and Outside Abyssea.

So if you're looking into a Relic/Empyrean, I'd work on Mandau, Cause i think SE is going to do more for Relics by the time 99 comes around.

Hmm that is interesting, this discussion never caught my eye before. There was one named Mandau vs Twashtar, but i don't remember such clear aruguments. I need to check it out later.

edit: Well, couldn't find with a quick look. hehe

But it's reasonable anyway. Reasonable so long as we can't use rudras because i don't see Twashtar losing otherwise. It's a 30% damage boost vs a 5% one. Mandau's hidden effect would have to proc at 20% rate to reach the same performance (not counting its extra attack).

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not too sure for Thf but I know Byrth did math for Dnc on Twashtar and inside abyssea at least Rudra's wasn't worth using at all if it wasn't SA/TA'd/Force critical'd, so you wouldn't get the ODD aftermath.

[Karbuncle]

Hmm that is interesting, this discussion never caught my eye before. There was one named Mandau vs Twashtar, but i don't remember such clear aruguments. I need to check it out later.

edit: Well, couldn't find with a quick look. hehe

But it's reasonable anyway. Reasonable so long as we can't use rudras because i don't see Twashtar losing otherwise. It's a 30% damage boost vs a 5% one. Mandau's hidden effect would have to proc at 20% rate to reach the same performance (not counting its extra attack).

could have sworn this:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/20245/mandau-vs-twashtar/2/

Argument went more into detail. I guess I must be misreading something. I swear at one point is aw Gried arguing the math behind both.

[Frost]

TH =/= DPS. Apples and chicken egg comparison, that. Unless you're specifically farming fast mobs for a specific drop and you're trying to calculate Drops per Damage-over-Time. In which case, it depends on the mob's hp, the amount of TH gear, the item's native drop rate...

More hits = More chances to proc. Has nothing to do with DPS.

[Laphine]

I guess this is it then. But yeah mandau provides more benefits in this evisceration age.

Oh and i just noticed a mistype that need fixing with your quote. It's not "a 30% damage boost vs a 5% one", i meant to say 30% proc vs 5% proc, which figures 30% damage boost for twash and 10% damage boost for mandau.

Neisan_Quetz could you provide a link for that? i'm quite a defender of solo rudras if a situation calls. It's very specific but it's there: you gotta have high pdif, high multi hit average and use rapidus sax as sub weapon. Anyway i've even done some math for it right here (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/19459/twasher-offhand-dagger-options/#1175309).

[Arcon]

I didn't read any discussion on this, but from personal experience, Rudra's was an all around subpar WS, whereas Mercy Stroke excelled inside and outside of Abyssea. I've seen higher Mercy Stroke numbers in both cases, both with and without SA/TA. Highest Mercy Stroke I saw on Colibris was 2.8k (without SA/TA), if you discount the 25% bonus, that's still over 2.2k WS. I could barely beat that on WAR with 2hr up (highest Penta Thrust I did was 2hr'd 3.6k, 2.6k without 2hr, and that's both including the 25% bonus). Note that this was all at 75.

Recently we did some sea NMs with a Rudra's THF with pretty good gear, he only recently got his Twashtar 90, so he was testing a few WS builds and playing around. The results were less than impressive, I have it in my logs, I'll go through the parse soon to compare. Mercy Stroke on the other hand was putting out rather high numbers (and pretty consistent too).

Again, this is not math based and I have neither WS so can't try stuff myself, just from my experience I found Rudra's Storm not the least bit impressive, whereas Mercy Stroke often outdamaged a fully buffed Evisceration inside Abyssea.

[Laphine]

The difference between RS and MS isn't so high, but sure, MS(90) will always put out higher numbers in the end of things. This doesn't matter though, the dps gained with RS aftermath will always beat anything MS could offer. Considering SARS or SAMS are also better than SAEvis, which means stacking these ws is the better choice if the oportunity arises, we would only need to keep RS aftermath up about 33% of time(a bit more due mandau's attack boost and higher ws damage) and Twashtar's dps beats mandau's.

[Karbuncle]

The difference between RS and MS isn't so high, but sure, MS(90) will always put out higher numbers in the end of things. This doesn't matter though, the dps gained with RS aftermath will always beat anything MS could offer. Considering SARS or SAMS are also better than SAEvis, which means stacking these ws is the better choice if the oportunity arises, we would only need to keep RS aftermath up about 33% of time(a bit more due mandau's attack boost and higher ws damage) and Twashtar's dps beats mandau's.

Should never be using Either of the two over Evisceration 99% of the time anyway of course :P Inside (A) anyway :O!

so, I dunno, In order to activate Twasht Aftermath, You have to use Rudras every what, 60 seconds? Now if you perfectly time it to where you always SA or TA Rudra's, That won't be as big of a deal, as a SA/TA'd Rudra's is nice.

However, If you're lowmanning/Solo-tanking like most THFs do these days, You don't get to use Rudras' to its fullest power, So every ~60(??) Seconds you use a gimped Rudras instead of Evisceration, You're taking damage away from your WS Phase in order to activate its Aftermath. Where as Mandau's effect is always active, Even though it has a little lower proc rate, and you can repeatedly use Evisceration.

Unfortunately Wiki is absolutely Worthless when it comes to Proc rate on Aftermath/Mandau. But you also have to take into account mandau occ.does Triple Damage, while Twasht Does only Double. I think the numbers would be closer than it sounds D:

Plus Mandau has the Attack+35 (by 99, Likely Attack +45) which is a good increase in THF's over-all DPS as well, Though not as significant as its other bonuses.

I'm in no way saying Mandau is superior, I'm only saying I think Mandau is the smarter choice, Especially considering SE has mentioned plans on making Relics return to their Superior standing. and since Mandau/Twashtar are so close, Mandau99 has a good chance it will Stomp Twasht99.

(again, Please stress right now I believe you're probably right, Since i cannot for the life of me find any information on Twast Aftermath Rate, or Mandau's Hidden effect rate...)

[RaenRyong]

Aftermath level 1 lasts for 30 seconds and has a ~30% proc rate. It overwrites itself, meaning you have to RS every 30s or left to maintain Aftermath level 1.

[Karbuncle]

Aftermath level 1 lasts for 30 seconds and has a ~30% proc rate. It overwrites itself, meaning you have to RS every 30s or left to maintain Aftermath level 1.

Mmmm, That sounds pretty bad =X, I think that would severely hinder your WS-Damage phase right?

[Kasandaro]

More hits = More chances to proc. Has nothing to do with DPS.

Ah, see what you're asking. Honestly not sure. Like I said, I haven't seen conclusive parses that TH gear does anything besides set the initial bar. MKris build would be the way to test that, I guess.

[Laphine]

yeah, 30% proc and 30 secs duration, and both increase linearly with tp. At 300tp we get 50% proc and 1.5min duration (and Rudras gets a huge ftp bonus to boot lol). I'm not totally sure on these aftermath increases but it's what friends told me. It might even be worthwhile to use a 300tp rudras every so often, idk. Anyway, if mandau is indeed 5% proc then it's like i posted, we have 30% damage boost (at 100-199tp) vs 10% damage boost.

In the end the old maxim still hold its name, shit is situational and more so for thief with sa/ta being a huge variable. There can be situations where sa/ta can be used freely just as much as situations that we have to forget them.

Raen meant that to full time the aftermath. It lasts 30 secs and we get 100tp in less than 20 secs. Since lv1 aftermath overwrites itself, we can ride it by spamming the ws. And that's what jobs with "good" ws have as an edge over us, they can just spam their ws and hack away, while we have to think of sa/ta timing an position. But if the aftermath didn't overwrite itself no one could ever have it up 100% of the time unless we timed its duration with our tp gain speed.

[Karbuncle]

Hmmm, I like Twasht, But if i had the choice I think i'd still go for Mandau

Besides, i have WAR, I could use these shells for Ukonvasa (which i am ;O)

[Alukat]

well i am sitting on a constant 3,4-4,1k MS (SA,only VV + RR and my old 75- gear,the 3rd atma was a resistance atma, yeah i like safe fight over max dmg output)
on duo or trio i like to equip mandau + rapidus sax, so i can stick sa or ta for mercy stroke and have enough attack speed to do evisceration with MS aftermath (yeah it really loves the crit rate+)
did dynamis xarcabard a couple days ago and i was sitting on a constant 1,3-1,5k sa't MS (equiped th5 all time)
th 5 all time: i recognized that if i get th6 on the initial sa attack. the next proc will be 6 again after removing th5 hands.

Edit: for atma sitting at str+200 is anyway enough to have it capped.str+250 made no difference

[Ryozen]

WSC doesn't cap.

[Alukat]

WSC doesn't cap.

then explain pls why i do the same dmg with str+200 and str+250 on a 60% STR WSC ws ^^

[Ryozen]

Eyeballing error, non-identical conditions, and POIDH

[RaenRyong]

the plural of anecdote is not data

[noodles355]

Ah, see what you're asking. Honestly not sure. Like I said, I haven't seen conclusive parses that TH gear does anything besides set the initial bar. MKris build would be the way to test that, I guess.TH procs can only land on the first hit.

Fairly simple (yet mind-numbing) test. I've been tempted to do it to put a very good player in my linkshell in his place. He's good at his other jobs, but insists on fulltiming it as "in his experiance wearing TH gear increases the chance of level up". I think it's bullshit. TH for start value only.

Anyway. Equip Rapidus/Thief's Knife/Homam hands for one set of data, Rapidus/Fane Baselard/Assassin's Armlets for the other. Keep all other gear the same (Un-augmented Fane Baselard has similar DPS to Thief's Knife). This will remove any variables due to hitting the mob more or less with one set over the other (If you use a much higher DPS dagger than Thf's knife for the 2nd set, you'll be averaging less swings per mob (and less chance at TH procs) as each hit will be stronger. Rapidus is purely for it's low delay.

Select an enemy that doesn't have a Def+ or Att- TP move, so killspeed continues to remain the same. Do not WS (As it can proc on WS but is invisible and will skew results). Find a EM~ mob so defence isn't a problem and you can test without casting utsusemi. If you can, bring a mage to heal you for your lack of utsu and to act as a potential TA partner. DO NOT Swap gear. Especially if you TA. It is possible that the chance for TH level up proc is related to the damage of the strike, which would explain why AF3+1/2 hands seem to increase proc rate, because they significantly increase SA damage. The same could be true for TA damage if you used AF+1 vs AF2.

Then measure your results by number of mobs or number of strikes. Don't measure it over a set period of time as it will be dependant on running between mobs, and also because homam hands will make you kill 3% faster in the non-TH set.

Finally, when doing the non-TH set, make sure to equip your TH gear for the first strike before swapping to non-TH gear so that the starting level of TH is the same for both sets of data.

[Karbuncle]

I could have sworn at some point I had TH Proc on Second/Third hit, Maybe If you miss main-hand Second hit will Upgrade?

You're probably right but i could swear i was fighting a mob at one point and TH upgraded on my second/third swing. :|

[Khajit]

Can TH proc in campaign. You could probably test it out via attacking fortifications if it does.

[Kasandaro]

TH procs can only land on the first hit.

I haven't had the inclination to run that parse - call me lazy.

Or did you mean that the Add. Eff.: TH Upgrade can only land on the first swing of the the main hand in any combo? (Could be parsed by THF/DNC single-wielding and using Drain Samba, to track what procs - also another parse I don't want to deal with.)

[Pesh]

Your base Level of Treasure Hunter is determined by your Base TH, Plus Gear. For instance:

A Player with Treasure Hunter II, when Striking a mob, Would inflict "Treasure Hunter Lv. 2" on the Enemy. Upon which each upgrade would increase it by 1.

A Player with TH2 trait, Thief's Knife, and Assassin Armlets would inflict "Treasure Hunter Lv 4" on the Enemy, and so on.

True, but the first time you see the message, you will always see your TH level +1. As a TH6, my first message is always a level 7 effect.

[Arcon]

True, but the first time you see the message, you will always see your TH level +1. As a TH6, my first message is always a level 7 effect.

That's because it doesn't say when TH is applied, only when it's upgraded. So with TH6, you put it on and get no message, it's still on though. And only when a melee hit upgrades it, you get a message. This can be proven easily, get TH on with TH6, then unequip all TH gear. The next upgrade will still be to TH7, which means TH6 was on before, even though you didn't have gear for it.

[noodles355]

I meant TH level up add effects can't proc on the 2nd/3rd hit of a double/triple attack procs, or on additional hits from Occasionally attacks twice/2-4 times/etc weapons.

[Habil]

Does keeping your TH gear on increase the chance of TH proc'n with melee attacks/JA? Also is there a cap to TH proc's, I've seen TH proc at 9 most of the time, I think I saw 10 once but can't confirm this.

[Arcon]

There's been some limited testing, apparently it doesn't help, or least not at a noticeable difference. But it's hard to judge, personally I'd say it isn't worth, since fulltiming lack of up to 7% Haste and a decent weapon are quite noticeable in your damage output.

[Ryozen]

There's been some limited testing, apparently it doesn't help, or least not at a noticeable difference. But it's hard to judge, personally I'd say it isn't worth, since fulltiming lack of up to 7% Haste and a decent weapon are quite noticeable in your damage output.

Mind linking these tests? I haven't seen anything worthwhile. If you have, please share.

[Arcon]

Mind linking these tests? I haven't seen anything worthwhile. If you have, please share.

Don't know I'm afraid, it's somewhere in the junkpile that is BG. It was mentioned by some semi-reliable players, so I assumed it was true. I can say I didn't notice any difference personally either, but didn't conclude any kind of real testing, just from the times I was too lazy to switch out TH gear (like when fighting normal mobs for triggers). That's why I said it's not noticeable if there is a difference.

[Ryozen]

So the answer you meant to give was, "I don't know."

I see.

[Arcon]

So the answer you meant to give was, "I don't know."

I see.

No it wasn't, the answer I meant to give was exactly the answer I gave. That "apparently it doesn't help" and that even if it does it's "not a noticeable difference" and that "personally I'd say it isn't worth [it]".

[Nebo]

If wearing TH gear does increase the chances of TH procing, it is not anything you would ever notice without parsing thousands of fights (IE something small like the 1% of the effects on them).

For the gear slots you are wasting to fulltime them, you would be giving up a lot more than 1% of your swings.

Sneak Attack and Trick Attack already have a significant enough increased chance to proc it without gimping oneself, in my oppinion. Speaking of which, some people SWEAR that Raider`s Armlets increase that chance even more. I haven't seen any testing to support this though.

[sope]

Speaking of which, some people SWEAR that Raider`s Armlets increase that chance even more. I haven't seen any testing to support this though.

Since chance to apply TH increases as you do higher damage, couldn't the increased proc rate be attributed to the increased Sneak Attack damage, rather than some hidden effect of the gloves?

[Nebo]

Since chance to apply TH increases as you do higher damage, couldn't the increased proc rate be attributed to the increased Sneak Attack damage, rather than some hidden effect of the gloves?

The % chance for TH to proc is not related to the damage of the hit.

[Arcon]

The % chance for TH to proc is not related to the damage of the hit.

I haven't seen testing for either, but personally don't think much of this theory.

[Ryozen]

Don't know I'm afraid, it's somewhere in the junkpile that is BG. It was mentioned by some semi-reliable players, so I assumed it was true. I can say I didn't notice any difference personally either, but didn't conclude any kind of real testing, just from the times I was too lazy to switch out TH gear (like when fighting normal mobs for triggers). That's why I said it's not noticeable if there is a difference.

Try again.

Edit: Missed a page. Whoops.

[ericnuke]

Does anyone have a screenshot or can verify that once you proc TH7 w/hands, knife, feet then replace knife and hands that it procs to 8+. I have been telling thf friend of mine and since I said something neither of us has noticed it. I could have sworn i did it on carabosse once, but I may have not changed gear. I'm hoping that we can, because seems dull that we have to keep a lv.70 dagger and lv.75 hands on to get better drops. But to answer OP's question I prefer Triplus dagger over any other even twilight, once I got all af3 +2 The set effect is like having a relic and makes me think about the cake spatula might be decent no matter how ugly it looks.

[Laphine]

Idk about pics, but this is accepted because everyone can check this behavior (and it's easy to do so). The tricky thing is whether wearing TH+ gear while tping increases the odds of a boost happening. Ppl discussed this idea on this very thread. But it's not easy to answer this question, because it would need a very long and well controlled test.

[Nebo]

Does anyone have a screenshot or can verify that once you proc TH7 w/hands, knife, feet then replace knife and hands that it procs to 8+.

Yes. And as Laphine mentioned is very easy to test for yourself. Land first hit with full, TH gear. Swap to DD gear. See the next proc go to the next highest level.