Inundation

[Daisansha]

Is it just me, or did Inundation used to not be removed after a single skillchain? If so, is this an intentional change where SE wants us to keep casting Inundation every few seconds over and over again? Or is this a bug?

[dasva]

I don't know if it is now but it certainly wasn't before. Very weird since it's designed to get stronger and stronger with more steps in the skillchain assuming you use different weapon types... which obviously wouldn't work if it wore right after the first skillchain. Iirc though it did have a shortish duration

[Rydal]

Bump

I'd like some clarification on how Inundation works:

Do Physical Blood Pacts, Ready, Automaton skills, Blue magic and Scholar using Immanence all count towards Inundation? If so, do they differentiate between each other or are all grouped together (all BP are one weaponskill type and all Blue magic spells are another)?

How exactly does it work: is it based on each step or number of weapons period? Example: If the steps are Dagger > Sword > Dagger, is it a bonus for 3 or for 2? What are the actual bonuses per weapon? 20% for every additional one?

Does the debuff disappear or reset in potency after a skillchain is completed?

[Songen]

Bump~
Can we get more info on this spell:
~Length of time it remains active and what removes it (Such as SC finishing or dispel only),
~What is the percentage that is increases damage per upgrade and is there a factor that decreases its percentage.
~what are the different types that increases dmg (Such as is there groups such as clunb blunt and hand to hand blunt or is it different) and what types are trusts and pets in the mix.
~does it add multipling factor the SC already has or does it own multipler factor before or after the SC calculation.
~does the multiplier remain active even if you don't add another different type of WS type or does it revert after another WS of a WS used remove multipler

[Camate]

Inundated by how Inundation works? :confused:

I’ve seen data based on player testing, and I can verify that the 1.2x increase per weapon type used in the skillchain is indeed accurate. Including pets, there are 15 total types of weapons, which means that the maximum value that can be reached with Inundation is a 12.8x increase. :cool:

[Rwolf]

That's good to know, thank you! I'm curious what makes up the 15 total types of weapons.

1. Hand-to-Hand
2. Daggers
3. Swords
4. Great Swords
5. Axes
6. Great Axes
7. Scythes
8. Polearms
9. Katana
10. Great Katana
11. Clubs
12. Staves
13. Marksmanship
14. Archery
15. Pets?

Are all pet abilities counted as one type despite their damage type? Or is there some odd category of pet abilites that SC or fall into this? Or is the 15th Immanence spells? I assume chainbound abilities doesn't work.

[Nyarlko]

Inundated by how Inundation works? :confused:

I’ve seen data based on player testing, and I can verify that the 1.2x increase per weapon type used in the skillchain is indeed accurate. Including pets, there are 15 total types of weapons, which means that the maximum value that can be reached with Inundation is a 12.8x increase. :cool:

How does that work exactly? O_o;; Last I checked, it's essentially impossible to use more than 6x weapon skills in a single skillchain before the window to continue drops to 0sec... So if no more than 6 out of the 15 weapon types are able to be included, how do we reach a 12.8x increase? That number appears to be ~1.2^14, so I take it that the first weapon type "doesn't count" so to speak at least. Using the 6step limit, we get closer to a ~2.98x increase, which is much much lower than your explanation. Can we please get further clarification on this?

On a different note, yay! pets count! XD Slightly disappointing that it seems that all pets are lumped into the same category, but something is still better than nothing in this case.

[Urmom]

So did they change this or something? Cause finally dug up my testing a couple of days after it came out and while I did get a 1.2x increase on the first one but was 1.333x increase for the 2nd skillchain while the way this is written it would suggest it should have been 1.44. Which was what turned me off from it since each step had a smaller gain

[Afania]

Inundated by how Inundation works? :confused:

I’ve seen data based on player testing, and I can verify that the 1.2x increase per weapon type used in the skillchain is indeed accurate. Including pets, there are 15 total types of weapons, which means that the maximum value that can be reached with Inundation is a 12.8x increase. :cool:

Can dev please confirm if SCH immanence are included as 1 weapon type, thanks.

[Songen]

So did they change this or something? Cause finally dug up my testing a couple of days after it came out and while I did get a 1.2x increase on the first one but was 1.333x increase for the 2nd skillchain while the way this is written it would suggest it should have been 1.44. Which was what turned me off from it since each step had a smaller gain

Did you remember to add another different type of weapon other than what was used already? if you use weapons types already used, the dmg will only increase by the normal SC increase variables

[Urmom]

Did you remember to add another different type of weapon other than what was used already? if you use weapons types already used, the dmg will only increase by the normal SC increase variables

Sorry I wasn't being clear. Those were increases over what I was getting without inundation. So yes it was definitely from inundation and I was definitely using different weapon types

[Nyarlko]

So did they change this or something? Cause finally dug up my testing a couple of days after it came out and while I did get a 1.2x increase on the first one but was 1.333x increase for the 2nd skillchain while the way this is written it would suggest it should have been 1.44. Which was what turned me off from it since each step had a smaller gain

How old is this dataset/testing? Are you sure there haven't been any updates to the effects since then? Entirely possible that it was buffed at some point since it was added after all.

[Urmom]

I think your questions are somewhat answered by the very first line you quoted

[Nyarlko]

I think your questions are somewhat answered by the very first line you quoted

I don't know when it was added. ^^ So doesn't help me as a reference point..

[Urmom]

Well I don't have exact dates either but the testing is basically the earliest it could've been done. Not sure what an exact date would get you unless you looking up update notes since then but the same search will pull up all the results including the first one. Which I just did and nope only change that has been made officially has been adding the scroll to another npc

[Songen]

Refer to bg wiki inundation for further info on how 12.8% increase is attained, it doesn't show where numbers are floored however it'll explain.

"example(Current WS dmg (5000dmg) x SC level multiplier 2.25 (Which is a 6th step double darkness or light (current SC dmg 11250) x Inundation level multiplier 6 (67500) = Final SC damage {67500)"
you don't multiply the inundation with the SC multiplier, you multiply the dmg result of the SC multipler with the inundation multiplier which results in the final number being approximatly 12.8x the WS damage. the math in there has something wrong a little, but it explains the 12.8x

[Nyarlko]

Refer to bg wiki inundation for further info on how 12.8% increase is attained, it doesn't show where numbers are floored however it'll explain.

"example(Current WS dmg (5000dmg) x SC level multiplier 2.25 (Which is a 6th step double darkness or light (current SC dmg 11250) x Inundation level multiplier 6 (67500) = Final SC damage {67500)"
you don't multiply the inundation with the SC multiplier, you multiply the dmg result of the SC multipler with the inundation multiplier which results in the final number being approximatly 12.8x the WS damage. the math in there has something wrong a little, but it explains the 12.8x

BGwiki, like all wikis, are compilations of user submitted information (and subject to easily becoming out-of-date.) It's not "12.8%" btw, it's a 12.8x multiplier, which would be "1280%". You also are adding in skillchain damage/bonus, which is not included in the dev post..

The way the dev post is worded, it implies that "a skillchain comprising all 15 weapon types will have a maximum bonus multiplier from Inundation of 12.8" and yes, a 15-step sc including every ws type would indeed have an unfloored multiplier of 1.2^14, or 12.83918465 according to my calculator. ^^;; The only issue I have with that is that, as far as I've ever seen or read, it's not actually possible to create a 15-step skillchain mechanics-wise. Given that, it's rather misleading to give us that number instead of the much more likely 1.2^5 / ~2.49x. (Messed up my math in the prior post. ^^;; A 6-step would be ^5 not ^6.) Even adding up the damage increases applied to each step don't get close to the 12.8, so further clarification would be needed in this case to prevent misinterpretation.

[Songen]

BGwiki, like all wikis, are compilations of user submitted information (and subject to easily becoming out-of-date.) It's not "12.8%" btw, it's a 12.8x multiplier, which would be "1280%". You also are adding in skillchain damage/bonus, which is not included in the dev post..

The way the dev post is worded, it implies that "a skillchain comprising all 15 weapon types will have a maximum bonus multiplier from Inundation of 12.8" and yes, a 15-step sc including every ws type would indeed have an unfloored multiplier of 1.2^14, or 12.83918465 according to my calculator. ^^;; The only issue I have with that is that, as far as I've ever seen or read, it's not actually possible to create a 15-step skillchain mechanics-wise. Given that, it's rather misleading to give us that number instead of the much more likely 1.2^5 / ~2.49x. (Messed up my math in the prior post. ^^;; A 6-step would be ^5 not ^6.) Even adding up the damage increases applied to each step don't get close to the 12.8, so further clarification would be needed in this case to prevent misinterpretation.

~I didn't write "x" instead of "%", i apologise for the confusion however that was my fault for not double checking my spelling, my spelling/grammar isn't always good so you'll find small mistakes here and there.
~Camate didn't exactly word it right, but not in the way you mean, they simply put each part of the sentence in the wrong spot.


Inundated by how Inundation works? :confused:

I’ve seen data based on player testing, and I can verify that the 1.2x increase per weapon type used in the skillchain is indeed accurate. Including pets, there are 15 total types of weapons, which means that the maximum value that can be reached with Inundation is a 12.8x increase. :cool:

allow me to realign it to make more sense:
~~Including pets, there are 15 total types of weapons,I’ve seen data based on player testing, and I can verify that the 1.2x increase per weapon type used in the skillchain is indeed accurate.which means that the maximum value that can be reached with Inundation is a 12.8x increase. :cool:~~

if you look at it like this, you can see that the referal to 15 WS types isn't what makes the 12.8%. infact, camate specificlly says "1.2x increase per weapon type used in the skillchain" so that would take it far beyond the 15 weapon skills.

The "maximum value" which camate refers to is the maximum SC damage for that final SC set after performing 6 weapon skills and achieving 5 SCs, not the multiplier. every SC set prior to the final one is calculated at its own SC multiplier term and inundation multiplier term.

The result is similar to magic damage where you calculate magic attack bonus in one term, then calculate magic burst in another term. you don't multiply magic attack with magic burst, you multiply the damage

Magic attack (SC multiplier which comes from the current level of WS element such as light or double light and amount of WSs preformed prior to this point), magic burst (Inundation multiplier)

automaton for example have their own inundation multipler (For their weapon skills) in a different term to rdm's inundation which comes from their SC attachment called speed loader. in which case if automaton closes the final WS of a 6 weapon type SC, they push the damage further.
WS dmg x SC multiplier x inundation multiplier x automaton's inundation multiplier = final damage (without including all other special multipliers such as SC trait, SC gear, weather bonus, resists, etc)

[Nyarlko]

~I didn't write "x" instead of "%", i apologise for the confusion however that was my fault for not double checking my spelling, my spelling/grammar isn't always good so you'll find small mistakes here and there.
~Camate didn't exactly word it right, but not in the way you mean, they simply put each part of the sentence in the wrong spot.



allow me to realign it to make more sense:
~~Including pets, there are 15 total types of weapons,I’ve seen data based on player testing, and I can verify that the 1.2x increase per weapon type used in the skillchain is indeed accurate.which means that the maximum value that can be reached with Inundation is a 12.8x increase. :cool:~~

if you look at it like this, you can see that the referal to 15 WS types isn't what makes the 12.8%. infact, camate specificlly says "1.2x increase per weapon type used in the skillchain" so that would take it far beyond the 15 weapon skills.

There is nothing "beyond the 15 weapon skills." Inundation bonus only increases if the weapon type is different than any prior types that have been used in the same skillchain. As it appears to be a multiplicative term (in other words, starting with 1.0 for the first ws, multiply the previous result by 1.2 for each additional weapon type used in the skillchain,) you should be able to get the correct result with: 1.2^n, where n=(number of weapon types used in sc) -1.
So a 15-step using every type for the "maximum" bonus should be: 1.2^14 = ~12.83 (which matches what Camate stated, assuming there's flooring involved somewhere to account for the .03~ remainder.)
I am beyond confused as to what you are thinking is going on here. :/




The "maximum value" which camate refers to is the maximum SC damage for that final SC set after performing 6 weapon skills and achieving 5 SCs, not the multiplier. every SC set prior to the final one is calculated at its own SC multiplier term and inundation multiplier term.

The result is similar to magic damage where you calculate magic attack bonus in one term, then calculate magic burst in another term. you don't multiply magic attack with magic burst, you multiply the damage

Magic attack (SC multiplier which comes from the current level of WS element such as light or double light and amount of WSs preformed prior to this point), magic burst (Inundation multiplier)

automaton for example have their own inundation multipler (For their weapon skills) in a different term to rdm's inundation which comes from their SC attachment called speed loader. in which case if automaton closes the final WS of a 6 weapon type SC, they push the damage further.
WS dmg x SC multiplier x inundation multiplier x automaton's inundation multiplier = final damage (without including all other special multipliers such as SC trait, SC gear, weather bonus, resists, etc)

The only thing that Camate addressed, and the only thing relevant in this thread, is the damage bonus multiplier provided directly by Inundation. Any/all other sources of skillchain or damage related bonuses are not included. This has absolutely zero relation to any other terms in damage formulas (like MAB) and zero relation to any of the damage formulas themselves.

I honestly do not know about the finer points on PUP, so I'll take your word on it being a separate term, but it's version (or any other interactions with any other effects) is not what matters here since we're talking about the RDM spell named "Inundation".

Inundation all by itself is what Camate replied about, and it doesn't really appear that the numbers given are absolutely "wrong", but I have issues with how the info was presented.. I believe what we've been given is rather misleading and slightly deceitful as it's basically impossible to make the 15-step skillchain that would be required in order to reach the 12.8x bonus stated. In that case, the stated "max value" stated should have been what a 6-step should receive, perhaps with a disclaimer that there is no hard cap on the bonus, instead of the over-inflated value stated that makes Inundation sound much more powerful than it is.

If I am mistaken and a 15-step skillchain is not prevented by basic combat mechanics, then I will stand corrected. ^^ Otherwise, my point stands and a dev post clarifying that the maximum effective bonus granted by Inundation is ~2.49x for a 6-step skillchain involving 6 of the 15 different weapon types along with official confirmation that the 15th type is indeed "pets".

[Songen]

First thing in case there is misunderstanding. 1.2x is 120% increase, 2.4x is 240%increase, 3.6x is 360% increase
In the sense that camate could have been explained more clearly, yes, it woulda helped alot, however what your doing is nit picking specifics which have already been researched by players and confirmed by SE themselves.

Below are links to some the forums (I hate researching again things i researched a long time ago and seen first hand)with some pic's of weapon skills and SCs (So you can see for yourself) of the ENGLISH research which if you pay attention and actually read the chat with the pic's and what level the skillchain is at and do the numbers how i have explained before (Dmg + SC multiplier+inundation multiplier) you get the result with some variable's which is normal due to resists,weather,gear, monster level penalty's, etc), (This excludes the japanese research however reflects some japanese research since i found some info during my research today which matchs the english research)

Beware this is only 2 links out of a much larger research section done by players, don't think this amounts to everything everyone knows
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/46562/inundation-spell/#3042612
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/38352/power-rangers-a-guide-to-pewing/85/#3072974

Looking at those pics, doing the math, doing the calculation, you will see the 12.8x mentioned by camate IS the final SC damage resulting from a full set of inundation and SCs

SE has made mistakes on how they have worded things, and on multiple locations i saw themselves correct themselves which is how they worded it only, very few are direct calculation mistakes, and while it can be confusing sometimes.

The main thing to keep in mind is: they confirmed the player data resulting from hours of player researching and calculating data from different sources and different means, even small bits like those 2 pic's along offer so much information.

[Nyarlko]

First thing in case there is misunderstanding. 1.2x is 120% increase, 2.4x is 240%increase, 3.6x is 360% increase
In the sense that camate could have been explained more clearly, yes, it woulda helped alot, however what your doing is nit picking specifics which have already been researched by players and confirmed by SE themselves.

Below are links to some the forums (I hate researching again things i researched a long time ago and seen first hand)with some pic's of weapon skills and SCs (So you can see for yourself) of the ENGLISH research which if you pay attention and actually read the chat with the pic's and what level the skillchain is at and do the numbers how i have explained before (Dmg + SC multiplier+inundation multiplier) you get the result with some variable's which is normal due to resists,weather,gear, monster level penalty's, etc), (This excludes the japanese research however reflects some japanese research since i found some info during my research today which matchs the english research)

Beware this is only 2 links out of a much larger research section done by players, don't think this amounts to everything everyone knows
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/46562/inundation-spell/#3042612
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/38352/power-rangers-a-guide-to-pewing/85/#3072974

Looking at those pics, doing the math, doing the calculation, you will see the 12.8x mentioned by camate IS the final SC damage resulting from a full set of inundation and SCs

SE has made mistakes on how they have worded things, and on multiple locations i saw themselves correct themselves which is how they worded it only, very few are direct calculation mistakes, and while it can be confusing sometimes.

The main thing to keep in mind is: they confirmed the player data resulting from hours of player researching and calculating data from different sources and different means, even small bits like those 2 pic's along offer so much information.

What I am "nit picking" is that the numbers don't match up from what was given to basic math regardless of method of calculation. Asking for clarification is in no way harmful to any of us in any way. If the math works the way you think it does, then it does not match up to what was stated, in which case clarification is even more necessary.

Both of the screenshots you linked are explicitly stated to be from only 3-step skillchains. That means the Inundation bonus would be at either 3.6x (if additive like you seem to think it is, and does not mathematically work since 1.2x15 is far beyond the 12.8x stated max) or 1.7x (if multiplicative, which may have been tacitly confirmed by Camate along with the 1.2x value, and which mathematically works.) I really can not come up with any potential formulas you are using to come up with such bizarre numbers. :/ It does seem like you are including other multipliers in your calculations though, which is flat out the wrong thing to do here.

The key point here which I believe you are missing: I am not declaring the stated "value per weapon type" of 1.2x is incorrect. In fact, I've repeatedly stated that it is correct and am basing my calculations on that being true. I am requesting the specific value for the bonus granted by "Inundation" for a 6-step skillchain and questioning why the given max value may be for a 15-step skillchain that is either technically or effectively impossible to perform in-game.

[Songen]

you know, i was gonna write a whole thing up about it, forget it. you are right, its gotta be cleared up once and for all.gonna start another thread with quote from camate and hopefully SE does something about it in terms of response. support that post or reword it better to help with getting a response