Post-RoZ jobs on Relic Weapons

[scaevola]

Time to beat a dead horse!

With the upcoming update to legendary weapon DMG, the time seems riper than ever to add post-RoZ jobs to Relic weapons. As it stands, a 35% buff to DMG and 50% buff to relic/empyrean bonus stats will put legendary weapons on top for most if not all jobs and setups, and leaving post-RoZ jobs without a shorter way to obtain a superior weapon (that will still usually be inferior to the Mythic weapon they can already obtain, if balance is the concern) seems pretty unfair.

I think the buff to legendaries is a great idea in general. I just wish it were something all jobs could benefit from equally.

[Alhanelem]

They will never add new jobs to the relic weapons. Their specific solution was to introduce new weapon sets that included later jobs.

[scaevola]

I am aware that was their solution, yes.

It is a bad solution, given what the creation of different types of legendary weapons involves and what the weapons themselves actually do.

[Rubicant82]

SE has mentioned several times that the relic weapons were never balanced properly for the newer jobs, which honestly if you look at the weapons.... they are okay for the jobs that can use them, but none of the job not on them would really benefit from them. Mythic/Empy/Eragon weapons are much better for the newer jobs, and the new weapons are going to be even more powerful then what they are now. So you can beat a dead horse all you want, but I think this dead horse is long decayed to dust. :3

[scaevola]

The point is not that Relics would be better than Mythics for the jobs that can't currently use them, but that they are several orders of magnitude easier to make, and after the buff post-RoZ jobs will be severely handicapped by not having access to them as a way to remain competitive without resorting to a Mythic.

This didn't matter before when Relics were weak and non-legendary weapons were comparable or superior.

[Atomic_Skull]

SE has mentioned several times that the relic weapons were never balanced properly for the newer jobs, which honestly if you look at the weapons.... they are okay for the jobs that can use them, but none of the job not on them would really benefit from them. Mythic/Empy/Eragon weapons are much better for the newer jobs, and the new weapons are going to be even more powerful then what they are now. So you can beat a dead horse all you want, but I think this dead horse is long decayed to dust. :3

Yep pretty much that, everything that makes Mandau such a good weapon for THF even in the face of Ipetam etc would be broken on DNC, even more so if they buff it's damage. They'd have to gimp it to keep it sane on DNC and that would end up hurting the other jobs that can use it. Better to just leave DNC off it and avoid the whole mess.

And hasn't DNC stolen enough things from THF already? Promoting DNC to A+ rank dagger while leaving accuracy bonus in place and giving them more native dual wield was bad enough. Leave THF alone for a change.

[scaevola]

I would ask you to explain what about mandau is specifically better for DNC than THF, but that would distract us from the fact that not putting post-roz jobs on relics will kill them off.

I am a non-mythic DNC. When this goes live, my options are to make a mythic, switch to thf and finish mandau in two weeks, or just resign myself to being 20 DMG behind with enchufla.

[Atomic_Skull]

I would ask you to explain what about mandau is specifically better for DNC than THF

It's more the fact that DNC is already significantly better than THF and giving them Mandau would just be lunacy. Specifically extremely low delay for it's DMG +40 attack and occasional triple damage are what makes it good.

I'd rather see it balanced for THF than DNC, if they add DNC to it it will be balanced with DNC in mind as that is the most powerful job that could use it and that will catch THF in the crossfire much as the TP nerf and countless other things have in years past.

I fail to see how not giving post ROZ jobs access to relics will "kill them off"

[scaevola]

It's more the fact that DNC is already significantly better than THF and giving them Mandau would just be lunacy.

But DNC having Terpsichore, which is dramatically stronger and will be after the update, is fine? If not, should mythics be nerfed?


Specifically extremely low delay for it's DMG +40 attack and occasional triple damage are what makes it good.

1) It's not good. That's why it's being updated.

2) That is why it WAS good, before the DMG started dragging behind non-legendary alternatives. It was that good when it had DMG comparable to non-legendary alternatives; now it'll have substantially more damage than those alternatives, too. The gap between legendaries and non-legendaries will be far greater than it's ever been.


I'd rather see it balanced for THF than DNC, if they add DNC to it it will be balanced with DNC in mind as that is the most powerful job that could use it and that will catch THF in the crossfire much as the TP nerf and countless other things have in years past.

It's got RDM on it, too; is Mercy Stroke the magic bullet melee RDM has been missing all these years?

You aren't seriously going to argue the job spread on relics, established as it was TWELVE YEARS AGO, has any bearing on the present, are you?


I fail to see how not giving post ROZ jobs access to relics will "kill them off"

It will kill them off because I can use all my DNC gear for THF and be back in the game in two weeks. Major balance updates like this have been killing jobs since forever. Remember the WS update last year? Don't see too many WARs these days, do you?

[Atomic_Skull]

Updated stats for Excalibur from the stream:

Damage 162, Delay 233 Accuracy +60 "something" +186 (all four weapons including the aeonic sword that were shown have this stat) sword skill and parrying skill +268, magic accuracy +242.

PLD/RDM. ilevel 119 (aeonics are ilev 119 also)


So it appears as though no post RoZ jobs are being added to the relics :)


Is the rest follow this pattern Mandau should be something like damage 121 / delay 176

[Traxus]

You ignored the guys question. Why is dnc mythic fine, but mandau dnc unbalanced, when mandau is significantly worse? Both will become upgrade-able in the same update.

[machini]

I can't understand that, either. It's not like a DNC would even want to use Mercy Stroke.

[Atomic_Skull]

I can't understand that, either. It's not like a DNC would even want to use Mercy Stroke.

That's assuming they don't buff the hidden relic WS damage boost again.

[Atomic_Skull]

You ignored the guys question. Why is dnc mythic fine, but mandau dnc unbalanced, when mandau is significantly worse?

I'm not sure how Mandau is "significantly worse"

Mandau: DMG 91 Delay 176

Terpsichore: DMG 102 Delay 205


The extra 11 DMG isn't worth the increased delay. I have an Ipetam with 130 DMG (115DMG 220 delay +15DMG augment) and I *still* kill things faster with Mandau.

[scaevola]

I'm not sure how Mandau is "significantly worse"

Mandau: DMG 91 Delay 176

Terpsichore: DMG 102 Delay 205


The extra 11 DMG isn't worth the increased delay. I have an Ipetam with 130 DMG (115DMG 220 delay +15DMG augment) and I *still* kill things faster with Mandau.

Okay, so you don't understand how Mythics work.

That's okay, but get off this tip about mandau on DNC being OP.

EDIT: worth noting that you kill things faster with Mandau because delay is more valuable than DMG on a dagger job when big WS hits are dramatic overkill. You'd probably do even better with Jugo +1/Jugo.



That's assuming they don't buff the hidden relic WS damage boost again.

Why would they boost relic WS damage and not touch Mythic WS damage?

[Ulth]

Some people just can't give up on their relics of the past. Mandau is bad. It once was good, but it's bad now.

[Jile]

Some people just can't give up on their relics of the past. Mandau is bad. It once was good, but it's bad now.

Grekumah said after update that we would use them in battle again so I'll remain optimistic that REM won't just be pretty mannequin gear.

[Ulth]

I still use my mythic, but really I doubt that they will make the relic dagger good again. White damage isn't what it used to be and since the current proposed relics aren't getting any attribute bonus I would say Taming Sari will still have Mandau beat for main hand, and off hand it will probably lose all it's perks so it's still just something to style lock with. I could see some other relics being good though. Katana comes to mind with the magic damage being added to all of them, and then ninja will have a decent option for fragmentation.

[scaevola]

Taming Sari, being amazing even for a SR weapon, may still beat Mandau for mainhand with max augs (though maybe not, given Mandau's mammoth delay advantage?) and will certainly beat it for the offhand, but even if you make the dubious assumption a max aug Taming Sari is trivial (Rule #1 of random loot is that it will always disappoint you; I've seen one TS in about 80 SR runs, which is why I MH Enchufla), DNC is not the only post-RoZ job. Many BLUs, CORs, PUPs, and RUNs would be grateful for Relic access as well.

[machini]

That's assuming they don't buff the hidden relic WS damage boost again.

If they increase the hidden WS damage boost on relics, there is no reason to assume they won't do the same thing on mythics.

Which means that Pyrrhic Kleos is still going to be doing more damage.

For your information, Mercy Stroke has a 5.0fTP and an 80% STR Modifier.
Pyrrhic Kleos is 4 hits at 1.75fTP, with 40%STR/40%DEX Modifier.

Assuming capped hit rate (which, if you're wielding RME and going into things without capped hit rate, there's things wrong here), Mercy Stroke at 119 has an effective fTP of 7.0, which is what Pyrrhic Kleos gets base without even having the mythic. With a 119 Terpsichore, Pyrrhic Kleos has an effective fTP of 9.1, and that's before you even stop to consider multiattack, let alone Mythic AM3, which can proc on WSes.

There is absolutely no reason for a Dancer to use Mercy Stroke.