PS2 Devkits: Are the Devs still keeping an eye out for more machinery?

[Rustic]

From time to time, equipment still pops up on places like Ebay-

Example-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Playstation-2-PS2-DEV-TOOL-Developer-Development-kit-/181852000067?hash=item2a57394f43:g:zM8AAOSw~gRV410u

Are they still actively attempting to acquire replacement equipment? At this point, $1000 seems a small price to pay to extend the life of the game- and outside of stuff like "Freshly Picked Vana'diel" I haven't seen mention of the hardware issues that are ending updates for the game.

A little public advertising in the right places might actually help.

[Zarchery]

This is a business. Not a bunch of hobbyists. They don't buy secondhand equipment from auction sites.

[Rustic]

This is a business. Not a bunch of hobbyists. They don't buy secondhand equipment from auction sites.

Considering there's no source for further replacements otherwise, secondhand is precisely how you get more equipment- odds are any previous replacements were sourced from now-defunct companies getting rid of used devkits they no longer used/bought from same going into liquidation from...you guessed it, auction sites.

Every usable piece acquired extends the lifespan of FFXI.

[Angemon]

It is just a scapegoat man. This is a billion dollar company... you really think something silly such as PS2 devkits is holding them back? They have the capability to put this game on PC only but it would cost them much more than they are willing to invest. Sadly they want the game to be in this position as they feel the dev's would bring more revenue in through other projects.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It is just a scapegoat man. This is a billion dollar company... you really think something silly such as PS2 devkits is holding them back? They have the capability to put this game on PC only but it would cost them much more than they are willing to invest. Sadly they want the game to be in this position as they feel the dev's would bring more revenue in through other projects.

This, it's just another excuse they are using, and FFXI's devs love using the PS2 as a reason one way or another.

[Alhanelem]

Considering there's no source for further replacements otherwise, secondhand is precisely how you get more equipment- odds are any previous replacements were sourced from now-defunct companies getting rid of used devkits they no longer used/bought from same going into liquidation from...you guessed it, auction sites.

Every usable piece acquired extends the lifespan of FFXI.I don't think you understand. No major corporation is going to turn to ebay for development equipment. If ebay is the only option, then they don't get more development equipment. Especially considering it would probably cost much more to buy the equipment there than directly from another company with old units to get rid of.

Frankly, I believe the producer and his team want to keep FFXI going in any way possible, it's the bean counters that are getting in the way.

[Alhanelem]

It is just a scapegoat man. This is a billion dollar company... you really think something silly such as PS2 devkits is holding them back? They have the capability to put this game on PC only but it would cost them much more than they are willing to invest. Sadly they want the game to be in this position as they feel the dev's would bring more revenue in through other projects.

It's not a scapegopat. PS2 devkits are absolutely the problem. They can go PC only but they can't develop new content unless they completely and properly port the ps2 game engine code over to native PC code. That would be a monumental undertaking and probably their remaning dev kits would fail before they could complete the task. The devs themselves said they've obtained many of the last few working dev kits. There are probably legal reasons why they can't or aren't buying the odd ps2 kit that shows up on ebay, partially because the people who have them aren't really supposed to have them in the first place.


Every usable piece acquired extends the lifespan of FFXI. It would but are you content with the game simply being on life support and every new update depending on whether or not they can find another useable dev kit? It makes more sense to just stop updating it now, rather than say "we have this update in progress but we have no idea when we can get it to you because another devkit failed and we have to search ebay to find another one."

Eventually they will run out and if they haven't ported the game (properly) by that time, we'd still be SoL.

The best solution logistically would be a compatible remake that can use our existing character data. But that was ruled out as too expensive.

[Zarchery]

Considering there's no source for further replacements otherwise, secondhand is precisely how you get more equipment- odds are any previous replacements were sourced from now-defunct companies getting rid of used devkits they no longer used/bought from same going into liquidation from...you guessed it, auction sites.

Every usable piece acquired extends the lifespan of FFXI.

The link you posted is to exactly ONE development kit. Something tells me that occasionally finding one development kit here and there is not going to cut it for a working, multibillion dollar company.

[Alhanelem]

That is what I said. PS2 Devkit is just an excuseNo, it's not just an excuse. It's a legitimate reason for SE's current predicament- A predicament they'd be in even if FFXIV never existed (though it could be argued that a remake would have been more likely otherwise).

[Jile]

You know what would be nice but will never happen?

/pipedream on

If once SE finally turns of the servers in a few years they make the final version of the ps2 coded xi open source to be coded over for free by coders somewhere like a sourceforge project with the normal requirements (can't profit from any of the code etcetc). I am 99.9% sure they would never do it but man it would be fun to dig into the code and see how close the communities calculations and assumptions were over the years lol. Not to mention being able to keep this game alive indefinitely.

/pipedream off

[Zarchery]

Are they actually remaking this for the mobile? I think that may be an inaccurate rumor based on a misunderstanding that got out and multiplied. I can't for the life of me see how this would possibly work on mobile platform. Cellular reception is spottier than regular wired and wireless Internet, plus you have to account for the limited battery life of mobile devices.

[Alhanelem]

Are they actually remaking this for the mobile? I think that may be an inaccurate rumor based on a misunderstanding that got out and multiplied. I can't for the life of me see how this would possibly work on mobile platform. Cellular reception is spottier than regular wired and wireless Internet, plus you have to account for the limited battery life of mobile devices.
They are making a mobile version of the game.Exactly how it functions is unclear, but we have been told it will initially contain content relating the expansions up to and including Chains of Promathia. This mobile game will supposedly be avialable worldwide, but it is completely seperate from the PC version and you can't use existing characters.

[Rustic]

The link you posted is to exactly ONE development kit. Something tells me that occasionally finding one development kit here and there is not going to cut it for a working, multibillion dollar company.

That's correct. However, it's not the first so posted or likely the last. It's not like there's a tremendous demand for them two generations of Playstations later, so odds are there's others in private ownership gathering dust. Even half a dozen would likely keep FFXI functional for years given their use more for bugfixing and maint issues vs. new content development. S-E is probably the last developer of official PS2 gaming active in the world, FFXI the last PS2 game still receiving new content- and as they won't rebuild FFXI from scratch due to cost vs reward, the only option is to find cost-effective methods of extending it's service life. That means finding more devkits. S-E is a multibillion dollar company. FFXI has a very small chunk of that pie at this point in terms of development dollars, likewise a small number of people- and a thousand dollars per devkit is chump change.

Of course, the Holy Grail would be actually having access in full to PS2's development data to allow non-Linux kits to be remade and reviving the system entirely, much like many older gaming systems have.

That FFXI could outlast FFXIV -again- would be an interesting bonus. S-E was preparing to put down FFXI with Abyssea, and is doing so again with Adoulin -

[Alhanelem]

Nexon's "remake" will almost certainly be using imagery and lore from FFXI but little else- that is, a "Vana'diel universe game" but with gameplay that doesn't match FFXI's. They want nostalgiabucks from FFXI fans, not to be the spiritual successor to the game.
That's a possibility, but other than the announcement we've heard basically nothing about what it will be like.


S-E was preparing to put down FFXI with Abyssea, and is doing so again with Adoulin - This is total hogwash. They were not "preparing to put down FFXI" with Abyssea. They had an expansion in development at the time, they'd have wasted every penny they'd spent on that if that was their goal. It's one thing to argue that Abyssea damaged the game, it's another entirely to argue that it was a deliberate attempt to kill the game- especially considering abyssea itself was never directly the problem in the first place. The problem was that it was essentially impossible to surpass Abyssea with any future content because of the ludicrous amounts of power Abyssea granted (while inside it). I know few people who didn't find abyssea fun. I know lots of people who quit *after* abyssea- but I don't know any that quit *during* it- because Abyssea made other parts of the game less fun because Abyssea was the only place to be.

I'm tired of all these conspiracy theories.

[Raydeus]

Yeah, I have to agree that at this point the Dev kit shortage is very likely just a nice PR friendly excuse to kill XI. But what will really decide the future (or lack of it) of the game will be the number of active subs. People talks a lot about player population in the servers, but in my opinion that doesn't mean anything compared to the number of current active subs.

I say this because in my case I tend to play in bursts. I usually go through periods where I only log in for me points and mog garden stuff (which takes me maybe 15 minutes) and then log out. Followed by periods of time where I play a few weeks non-stop. It all depends on what other games I may be currently playing or how busy I'm with RL stuff, etc. But I still pay my fee without fail regardless. And considering how many players grew up playing XI I'd be surprised if my case wasn't very common simply because lack of time is always a thing in adult life.

So as long as those players who still enjoy XI (even if they can't/wont play as much these days) keep paying their subs, XI will always have a very good chance at staying alive. Even more so when it is operating with a skeleton crew, since costs will go down even further and SE wont be able to justify killing a nice source of revenue like that.

And if by some chance XI starts gaining subs again we may even see more PC improvements. Who knows, it may be unlikely but it can still happen considering how enjoyable and accessible the game is these days. :D

[Teraniku]

The only way I could see FFXI getting a remake, is as an expansion to FFXIV, either using FFXIV rules, or make it a separate area, that uses it's own game rules. Remove Abyssea and the WotG areas to save development time and add Fort Karugo-Narugo, Grauberg, and Vunkerl inlet to modern Vana'diel. It's the only way it could even have a chance of happening.

[Alhanelem]

Yeah, I have to agree that at this point the Dev kit shortage is very likely just a nice PR friendly excuse to kill XI.No, because if they wanted to just kill it, they would have done so back when they made the announcements. They don't want to kill it, but they also don't want to spend extra money on it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

No, because if they wanted to just kill it, they would have done so back when they made the announcements. They don't want to kill it, but they also don't want to spend extra money on it.

Of course they don't want to kill it, it makes more money than it costs them, a company would be stupid to kill something while it's making a profit, think how much more money it will make now while they're not actively updating it minus a nerf here, a rehash there.

[Teraniku]

Of course they don't want to kill it, it makes more money than it costs them, a company would be stupid to kill something while it's making a profit, think how much more money it will make now while they're not actively updating it minus a nerf here, a rehash there.

Tell that to NCSoft, but then again, the whole City of Heroes closure was more about NCSoft getting rid of Paragon Studios, then the game itself.

[Billnes]

From time to time, equipment still pops up on places like Ebay-

Example-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Playstation-2-PS2-DEV-TOOL-Developer-Development-kit-/181852000067?hash=item2a57394f43:g:zM8AAOSw~gRV410u

Are they still actively attempting to acquire replacement equipment? At this point, $1000 seems a small price to pay to extend the life of the game- and outside of stuff like "Freshly Picked Vana'diel" I haven't seen mention of the hardware issues that are ending updates for the game.

A little public advertising in the right places might actually help.

Rustic, here's a reprint of an old posting that I wrote. My original though here: That SE would buy up all the broken PS2 dev units they could find. They would then cobble together working units from the scraps that they just purchased. Perhaps, they'd also be able to fix a few parts. As you can see below, bungiefanNA shot me down. When I though about it, and had a chance to look at an old off-the-shelf 4X AGP card, I realized he was absolutely justified in that shootdown.

I don't think any of the numbers would make sense. Follow along with me on this: SE would purchase ten (10) broken dev kits at $1,000 each. With the ten broken kits now in their stock, SE now has enough working parts (cross your fingers & pray) to cobble together...... Two working dev kits?? That's a four to one (4:1) ratio, folks...... Those two dev kits that they just cobbled together, how long do they last?? Two years, maximum? Is the two years that a cobbled together dev kit might live, enough time to do minor glitch/bug fixes? Without question: yes. Would it be worth it to gamble $10,000 just to have two more machines to do minor bugfixes? No way! Is the two year lifespan (you pray that it's two years) long enough to do another major content addition? Pfft... No way!

Also, let's think about this: SE gambles $10,000 on buying ten broken dev kits. When the tech people at SE examine all the stock, they realize that they can cobble together zero additional working dev kits. That's $10k out the window..... Time to face reality folks: Sad but true, the dev kits are toast.


Would it make sense to do a cost-benefit analysis on buying broken PS2 Dev Tools in order make an attempt to have some spare parts on hand? In the YT video I saw, the voice over said that a lot of Dev Tools break because they were handled improperly during shipping. I don't know myself: How hard would it be to repair a cracked circuit board? I was under the impression that if the pathways aren't too tiny, there are methods for removing small areas of varnish from a circuit board, re-soldering the circuit and putting back new varnish. What about removing existing components from a broken board, manufacturing a new board and re-soldering the components to the recreated board?


Old single-layer double-sided breadboards, maybe. Current circuit boards, no. A cracked board is dead. They are multiple layers, and cannot be repairs, just melted down and remade by the robot that makes them in the factory, if one was still in operation, which they aren't. Components are much to small to desolder and resolder by hand quickly or reliably without a robot built to do so. Even that would assume you could diagnose which component was dead from a non-booting board, and that it was worth the time to pay someone to do so. Humans don't do this work anymore, it's at too small of a size.

[Alhanelem]

Also, let's think about this: SE gambles $10,000 on buying ten broken dev kitsIf you try to push a $10k *gamble* on your company's corporate beancounters, please record a video of their laughter so we can all see it.

[Jile]

XI, when it was new, was a much bigger risk for its time, 10k is chump change.

Bottom line, there are absolutely dev kits out there to be had, SE doesn't want them regardless of condition, they want to step back from XI as an amazing success story.

While many people like myself would likely play XI a second decade, SE' bean-counters don't see a long term profitability or they wouldn't keep trying to "end" XI. Abyssea was the end... No, wait, now its rhapsodies..... We'll see in time if this is the "end" or just another pause.

[Alhanelem]

XI, when it was new, was a much bigger risk for its time, 10k is chump change.

Bottom line, there are absolutely dev kits out there to be had, SE doesn't want them regardless of condition, they want to step back from XI as an amazing success story.

While many people like myself would likely play XI a second decade, SE' bean-counters don't see a long term profitability or they wouldn't keep trying to "end" XI. Abyssea was the end... No, wait, now its rhapsodies..... We'll see in time if this is the "end" or just another pause.We already explained why a corporation like SE wouldn't buy quesitonable hardware on ebay. Few companies like them would if any. It has everything to do with policies and nothing to do with want.

[Jile]

It's more about saving face than policies. They wont take a risk if there is a potential to lose face.

Regardless, our opinions won't effect when XI goes offline. Our pocketbooks perhaps but I'm not opening 20,000 accounts to keep them motivated lol.

[Zarchery]

Bottom line, there are absolutely dev kits out there to be had, SE doesn't want them regardless of condition, they want to step back from XI as an amazing success story.

If you have any actual evidence for this assumption. Please produce it. The original poster produced a link to ONE development kit. On a purely grammatical level, your assertion that there are dev kits out there is not even backed up.

[Billnes]

If you try to push a $10k *gamble* on your company's corporate beancounters, please record a video of their laughter so we can all see it.

That's my point. Thank you for reinforcing my point. Obviously, I wouldn't expect the bean counters at SE to just hand over $10,000. For employees to use, gambling on second-hand dev tools off of eBay?? Also, in the original eBay auction found by Rustic, where's all the accessories that go along with the base unit? Auction says power cable and a keyboard - big deal. Where's the Audio/Visual cable that connects the dev kit to the preview monitor and the monitor itself?? Purchase a potential pile of scrap without at least some usable accessories? No way.

[Jile]

If you have any actual evidence for this assumption. Please produce it. The original poster produced a link to ONE development kit. On a purely grammatical level, your assertion that there are dev kits out there is not even backed up.

While I can't hand you links as I sit posting in a waiting room lobby, like others, I've seen sellers post them on everything from Craigslist to eBay and gaming boards over the last year or two but since I don't have the links and even if I did I'd be told since its not from reputable sources, they are irrelevant I'll just move on so people can say I'm wrong, they're right and regardless nothing would motivate SE to buy them. Lovely circle. So by all means, give me the obligatory insults since I don't have "proof" of previous sales etc.

[Zarchery]

While I can't hand you links as I sit posting in a waiting room lobby, like others, I've seen sellers post them on everything from Craigslist to eBay and gaming boards over the last year or two but since I don't have the links and even if I did I'd be told since its not from reputable sources, they are irrelevant I'll just move on so people can say I'm wrong, they're right and regardless nothing would motivate SE to buy them. Lovely circle. So by all means, give me the obligatory insults since I don't have "proof" of previous sales etc.

So then you DON'T have proof.

The fact that you have to look in a dozen different web sites for second hand versions of this critical tool proves my point. Serious businesses don't go scrounging through junkyards for secondhand equipment. That's why, say, prisons don't have black and white TVs. They stopped selling those decades ago. The Department of Corrections would have to go scrounging through yard sales and auction sites.

[Billnes]

<< SNIP! >> Serious businesses don't go scrounging through junkyards for secondhand equipment. << SNIP! >>

ORLY now?? What about Gas Monkey Garage?? Richard Rawlings and Aaron Kaufman scour junkyards all the time. They're not a legitimate business? For the money they make just on Appearance Fees from Discovery Communications, I'd take a walk through a junkyard. Just to look at weathered old cars & assorted parts? Sounds like a good gig to me.

[Alhanelem]

That's my point. Thank you for reinforcing my point. Obviously, I wouldn't expect the bean counters at SE to just hand over $10,000. For employees to use, gambling on second-hand dev tools off of eBay?? Also, in the original eBay auction found by Rustic, where's all the accessories that go along with the base unit? Auction says power cable and a keyboard - big deal. Where's the Audio/Visual cable that connects the dev kit to the preview monitor and the monitor itself?? Purchase a potential pile of scrap without at least some usable accessories? No way.
I never said they *shouldn't* consider these kinds of options, I only explained why they probably won't/aren't/haven't considered them.

[Atomic_Skull]

It's not a scapegopat. PS2 devkits are absolutely the problem. They can go PC only but they can't develop new content unless they completely and properly port the ps2 game engine code over to native PC code.

FFXI is not PS2 code running on an emulator, there is no way the game could have run on PCs back in 2004 if it were. The source code was written for the PS2 but the PC version is native PC code. I suspect what they did is replace the parts of the source code that interface to the PS2 hardware with "wrapper" code for windows and Direct3D before compiling it into machine code. (most computer programming is done using a high level language like C and then compiled for the target platform)

Starting around 2008 SE should have started porting the development tools for content creation to the PC. But from 2004-2010 Tanaka was too busing taking the development budget that should have gone to keeping FFXI running and funneling it into FFXIV 1.0 to create a circa 2006 PC game engine with 2010 hardware requirements that would get thrown into the dumpster.

And that's what really burns me, that they sacrificed FFXI's future for NOTHING. They could literally have NOT started working on FFXIV until 2010 and the only difference would have been that FFXI wouldn't have been left to rot.

[Alhanelem]

Regardless, our opinions won't effect when XI goes offline. The game is only going offline when most people stop playing. People are acting like the game is going to instantly shut down this coming March and that simply isn't the case.


FFXI is not PS2 code running on an emulator, there is no way the game could have run on PCs back in 2004 if it were.As far as I understand it's PS2 code in a wrapper. Similar to how most Windows games end up getting ported to Mac and at least part of the reason the game runs like crap even on high end modern PCs (And yes, it does. Try turning on full shadows and maximum settings for everything. Even on a PC made this year, you will still see slowdown in a busy place. By contrast, play any made for PC MMO in recent history and it will play fine, even with far more characters/objects being displayed.) The reason for this is that the game doesn't really use your GPU much at all and makes the CPU do all the work. The game only uses one CPU core and since top CPU clock speeds haven't risen THAT much (Nowadays, performance increases come from faster bus speeds and multiple cores), so its still very easy to see slowdown even today.


They could literally have NOT started working on FFXIV until 2010 and the only difference would have been that FFXI wouldn't have been left to rot. It still would have been left to rot with the inability to develop new material. I don't think FFXI was big enough even prior to FFXIV's official announcement and subsequent 1.0 release for them to have a high chance of doing a remake. They would have had to start planning for that much sooner than that.

[Billnes]

As far as I understand it's PS2 code in a wrapper. Similar to how most Windows games end up getting ported to Mac and at least part of the reason the game runs like crap even on high end modern PCs (And yes, it does. Try turning on full shadows and maximum settings for everything. Even on a PC made this year, you will still see slowdown in a busy place. By contrast, play any made for PC MMO in recent history and it will play fine, even with far more characters/objects being displayed.) The reason for this is that the game doesn't really use your GPU much at all and makes the CPU do all the work. The game only uses one CPU core and since top CPU clock speeds haven't risen THAT much (Nowadays, performance increases come from faster bus speeds and multiple cores), so its still very easy to see slowdown even today.

A few years back, I was fortunate enough to find an acrobat version of an official, Sega written programming book for their old Saturn console. The book clearly explained that the Saturn uses a version of Assembly language where certain elements of the standardized Assembly language were not implemented.

I can’t help but wonder: Does the Playstation 2 have a similar issue (problem?) with its implementation of C language? If such an issue exists, would it be something that would make it more difficult for SE to bring the FFXI development software from the dev tool environment into the stock PC environment?

[bungiefanNA]

It's not that the application is PS2 code in a wrapper, it's that assets need to be developed and then put in a format compatible with the engine. The PC uses DirectX because you can't code for the variety of hardware on a PC now, and you don't directly interface with the system components. On a console of the PS2's generation you didn't have a hardware abstraction layer like DirectX, you coded directly for the components inside the system. Thus the assets are coded for the PS2 graphics and audio processors. They had to convert those assets to something DirectX understands, but they don't design those assets directly in that end format, and the design tools are on the PS2 development platform, and then run through a conversion program for PC. If the original creation tools are gone because the units are dead, they only have conversion tools and nothing to convert. Making something that outputs in a compatible format for the conversion tool take a lot of reverse engineering, when writing it for a different platform.

PC games ported to Mac run into the issue that the Mac DOesn't have DirectX, and prefers OpenGL rendering, but the game may not have been designed with OpenGL in mind, so they have to rewrite that part of the code, or use an emulation layer that converts the DirectX calls to OpenGL. Windows can run OpenGL, but Microsoft owns DirectX and pushes developers towards it. If a game is designed as multiplatform and they start with OpenGL, then it is really easy to run on Linux and Mac OS, and thus easy to port.

[oliveira]

SONY has shut down all services related to the Dynamic Network Authentication System. PlayOnline and FFXI use the earliest form of HDD-DNAS system ever conceived by SONY, meaning it's the longest running DNAS protected software on the platform. (including disc only software on that too as PlayOnline released even before disc software were forced to use DNAS, that being the first POL Viewer beta in 2001)

I bet it's SONY wishes to cease servicing the last surviving bits of the DNAS infrastructure once and for all as they moved on to their new "NPDRM" system as used on PSN supported systems (PSP/PS Vita/PS3/PS4).

In 2014 Konami ceased servicing PS2 based hardware "Python 2" arcade board which used HDD DNAS as protection system. It used the same DNAS server as the Koei-Tecmo game "Nobunaga Ambition Online". That title ceased operation on the PS2 platform last February, likely due to retirement of it's DNAS service.

If you try to install it now, you get a DNAS error message stating that the title is no longer in service.

So it's not about lack of devkits. It's not good business practice to put the blame for a problem on another company though, so they would never say that SONY wishes are why they're retiring the PS2.

Anyway, anyhow I have two working PS2 units (USA and JPN) and on both of them the game is nearly unplayable.

It takes a LOT of dedication to play this game on the PS2 with all the problems it has currently, knowing that playing it on a PC would be a lot better experience.

People playing on PS2 will be relieved once they move on to PC.

Heck, SE is giving the PC client for free now on the game website so everyone can keep playing.

[Alhanelem]

or use an emulation layer that converts the DirectX calls to OpenGL.Which is the middleware wrapper that results in many games, including FFXIV, requiring vastly more powerful hardware to get less performance on OSX- in no small part because directX has performance features that OpenGL lacks. Last I heard though, OSX is moving to a different (and supposedly more compatible) graphics API that will (supposedly) eliminate the massive performance gap most such ported games experience).

[Diraco]

Seems they really got themselves into a bind due to not wanting to invest in porting the tools back when it would have been easy. At this point they either need to spend a LOT of money to get new dev kits made, spend a lot of money on developer salaries (probably all knowlege of the tools has been lost) to recreate the tools, or possibly spend a lot of money getting devkit features added to a PS2 emulator. Hmm... I hope they are keeping thier systems cool and dust-free!

[Catmato]

At this point they either need to spend a LOT of money to get new dev kits made, spend a lot of money on developer salaries (probably all knowlege of the tools has been lost) to recreate the tools, or possibly spend a lot of money getting devkit features added to a PS2 emulator.Or end development.

[Billnes]

<< SNIP! >>. At this point they either need to spend a LOT of money to get new dev kits made, << SNIP! >>!

:confused: "made"??

Factory fresh PS2 dev kits?? No way! Not gonna' happen. In my wildest dreams, I couldn't see SONY spending the insane amounts of time & money needed to retool even a single production line. To build specialty computers that are technology from 1998-99?? That makes absolutely no sense.

BungiefanNA originally posted this on October 17th, 2015 . It seems appropriate to be reposted because it adequately boils down everything I wanted to say on this subject.


Making an emulator for different architecture that works at all is hard. Making an emulator that works perfectly enough to compile the necessary code is ridiculously hard. If they were going to go through that expense, remaking the development environment from scratch for use on standard PC architecture would be more reasonable, and they have decided it isn't worth the expense to do that. Thus they have opted to make the game from scratch for mobile platforms, as a new and separate game, which will be more attractive to the market than trying to bring people into an established game over a decade old.

The time that it would have been financially feasible, and that they still had the staff that made the original tools in the first place, was when ToAU released in 2006. They didn't move their development environment then, and the development team started to be replaced in large numbers after that, losing the core knowledge base to make such a change. PS2 was also becoming an obsolete platform with the next generation having been released, so training new people to code for the old platform would be a waste.

So no, they can't keep developing on PS2 development kits even if they wanted, since they aren't made anymore, there's no option to repair them as there are no spare parts stockpiled by Sony, and the last few dozen working ones in the world (not held by private citizens that won't sell them) are in SE's hands. Doing the transition now would be as expensive as making a new game from scratch, which is what they have opted to do with FFXI mobile. It's FFXI in spirit, but it's not the same game, it's a new one in the same setting.

As for leaving us behind doing this, it's really their only choice. Jumping into a "new" game and finding players with characters they've had for 13 years and having the resources that come along with that would break the economy right away, so they can't transfer anything meaningful. One appeal of starting when a game releases is that everyone is at the start of the curve, so you have a chance to get to the top of it. If there are already people way ahead of you on day one, you aren't going to be interested in climbing the curve to try to catch up, especially if they are that far ahead. You tend to just give up in Mario Kart if you get completely lapped by the person in first, there's no hope of catching them, and it's the same mentality here.

[Vold]

It is just a scapegoat man. This is a billion dollar company... you really think something silly such as PS2 devkits is holding them back? They have the capability to put this game on PC only but it would cost them much more than they are willing to invest. Sadly they want the game to be in this position as they feel the dev's would bring more revenue in through other projects.
Which is a shame, because that goal will be wasted because said projects will bring in less money than if they had made the effort to keep FFXI going.

I would love to know what goes through the mind of those people when they think about this. You know they do. They have their little round table meetings and discuss things. So FFXI comes up, and no one suggests that millions of dollars of profit every year is worth keeping around for a small investment? FFXI has given them so much money that they couldn't invest a bigger investment to keep it's profits around? "OOOOH MAN! We'd basically have to create a new game to facelift the graphics" So freakin do it. The work would be paid for in a freakin year or less from XI subs, just don't sit there and whine. Of course, many years have passed since that amazing decision to go with XIV instead.

Even today they aren't getting chump change for FFXI. I find it mind boggling that they are so willing to be rid of XI, given they are a company that struggles financially every year, with FFXI having been their single greatest blessing for the past decade. It's the reason things aren't worse for them. They were all worried about XIV ruining their rep that they forgot that they are doing just that by letting XI fade away. Funny how that works. You'll put many tens of millions of dollars back into a failed, unproven game, but you won't drop a dime into improving your flagship title to ensure it's longevity. Brilliant. /slowclap

[Stompa]

Which is a shame, because that goal will be wasted because said projects will bring in less money than if they had made the effort to keep FFXI going.

I would love to know what goes through the mind of those people when they think about this. You know they do. They have their little round table meetings and discuss things.

It isn't just SE though, there is a battle within the videogame culture as a whole, between those who see videogames as legitimate works of Art, and those who see videogames as a disposable and purely commercial venture.

The mainstream trend is that games are purely commercial, they are not works of Art. It is normal to just cannibalise the best parts from previous games, and put them into a new one.

This is the result of the high rate of change in game technology over the last 30 years, tech is almost immediately obsolescent and self-devouring, and somewhere along the way, game developers assumed that this must always apply to software too.

Novelty is good, new games are good, remakes of old games are good. But there needs to be a point when we collectively stop and say "wait a moment, this is no ordinary game, this particular game is a Masterpiece, it is something very special and unique." This is what happens in all other forms of entertainment, especially painting, music, movies. We need this recognition of Masterpieces in videogaming too.

FFXI is a Masterpiece, a classic, a true work of Art. It was created by geniuses. It should be treated with great respect, and preserved for future generations.

If you look at how Masterpiece paintings are treated and restored, everybody has to wear white gloves and respirators, and treat the masterpiece with almost holy reverence. And nobody says "hey we've got these new 2015 pictures from Photoshop now, so lets just burn all those old Masterpieces by Monet and Picasso, they are so old!"

[Mithlas]

People love to say "but multi-million dollar company!" I hope you guys take into account how much has to be spent to pay employees, their benefits, taxes, maintenance of their own infrastructure as well as the utilities to keep their locations operating, etc. It's not cheap. Yes, they are a multi-million dollar company, but decisions have to be made for the better to keep the company growing and pursuing future interests. You always want to have a profit - you don't want to break even and you definitely don't want to have a negative ROI from something. They can't hold on to a dated piece of software and keep it growing for such a smaller market.

There has to come a point in time where, no matter how loved the game is and how respected it is by fans, that they simply need to move on.

[Alhanelem]

If you look at how Masterpiece paintings are treated and restored, everybody has to wear white gloves and respirators, and treat the masterpiece with almost holy reverence. And nobody says "hey we've got these new 2015 pictures from Photoshop now, so lets just burn all those old Masterpieces by Monet and Picasso, they are so old!" Those masterpieces don't need content updates and feature changes to continue existing or being appriciated, though. It's a poor analogy.

[bungiefanNA]

It's a huge risk to keep FFXI going because the competition and market tastes have changed, and old MMOs don't attract new players much over time. WoW, the most successful MMORPG ever, is fading and having trouble keeping new subscriptions. The population that joined the game at launch gradually ages and has less free time to play, which causes server populations to drop, which causes more people to leave. The big draw of an MMO is that you may have frieds that play, or you make friends when you start, and you stick with the game for them. If enough of the group leaves for something else, most of the rest of the group will follow. Attracting attention to something so old, that is obviously old, is a hard thing for marketing to do. You'd have to invest a ton of money on a regular basis to rework and relaunch the game every so often to keep it fresh and looking new for new players. Knowing that, it's easy to see why they didn't take the actions we wish they did.

[Stompa]

Those masterpieces don't need content updates and feature changes to continue existing or being appriciated, though. It's a poor analogy.

Actually it was not an analogy. It was a description. I am describing videogames as an Artform, no different to other Artforms. In all forms of Art there are Masterpieces. Those works are protected and cherished as valuable Human Achievements. I consider high-quality videogames to be both an Artform and a Human Achievement.

Infact many Masterpieces do have updates, paintings are restored and maintained, old music classics are reworked with digital technology, classic books are released again as Second Editions, often with alterations and improvements. A broken dusty vase is not displayed as such, it is restored as much as possible, so that people can appreciate the Mastery that went into that piece.

And this is so that future generations can continue to appreciate them, to use your phrase.

Obviously videogames are different, and it would be pedantic to demand that every Art medium has to have identical functionality, just to make descriptive statements about relative Quality and Masterpiece status.

[Roja323]

Except they already did that, it was called FF14 v1.0, and it wasn't as popular as direhard fans had hoped.

[Atomic_Skull]

As far as I understand it's PS2 code in a wrapper. Similar to how most Windows games end up getting ported to Mac and at least part of the reason the game runs like crap even on high end modern PCs (And yes, it does. Try turning on full shadows and maximum settings for everything. Even on a PC made this year, you will still see slowdown in a busy place. By contrast, play any made for PC MMO in recent history and it will play fine, even with far more characters/objects being displayed.) The reason for this is that the game doesn't really use your GPU much at all and makes the CPU do all the work. The game only uses one CPU core and since top CPU clock speeds haven't risen THAT much (Nowadays, performance increases come from faster bus speeds and multiple cores), so its still very easy to see slowdown even today.

Shadows, as well as loading zones and models are much faster when you remove the FPS cap. They fixed a lot of stuff that was previously locked to the FPS (enough that the game can actually run normally with the cap removed) when they did the fishing speed adjustments (fishing ran faster on the PC than on the PS2 for many years) but a few things were left still locked to the framerate apparently to be "fair" to PS2 users.

Hopefully with PS2 support ending they'll change the last few remaining framerate limited things to interrupts. Removing the FPS cap would be nice too (I never expected them to support Xinpit controllers EVER so there's hope)

Maybe they could just ditch DirectX 8 and switch to DirectX 9 as well. I mean just replace DX8 with DX9 so that windows doesn't have to use the DirectX wrapper it uses to support DX8. It's actually not that hard to do, mostly just a matter of replacing DirectX 8 calls with DirectX 9 ones (DX8 and DX8 are very similar unlike DX9 vs DX10 which is a complete change in how the rendering pipeline works)

[rhapsodyXI]

Isn't there some way they could preserve *this* version of the game on PC at least? I know it's a ridiculous idea/countering the profits they could make, but it just feels bad that a mainstream title/numeral game (I dunno if mainstream title/numeral means anything anymore) is just going off the blip and surfacing on mobile (the remakes of other mainstream FF games non-included and some are on PC I believe?).

Couldn't they or someone possibly, maybe not completely rework the game, but just make it function offline? (Not something like a private server but then again idk).

The Trust system at least makes soloing viable for a majority of content and some puzzles and traps that required people to do (like stepping on platforms, stuff like that y'know) just require a key item from a sidequest or mission.

In a year people will probably be playing the mobile version, whatever it may end being like. It'd be a shame that when the games finally shuts down in a few years what fans get is a "goodbye and enjoy the mobile version :^)".

[Alhanelem]

Shadows, as well as loading zones and models are much faster when you remove the FPS cap.Removing an FPS cap doesn't have any effect if your current FPS is lower than that cap. *head explodes*

[bungiefanNA]

Isn't there some way they could preserve *this* version of the game on PC at least? I know it's a ridiculous idea/countering the profits they could make, but it just feels bad that a mainstream title/numeral game (I dunno if mainstream title/numeral means anything anymore) is just going off the blip and surfacing on mobile (the remakes of other mainstream FF games non-included and some are on PC I believe?).

Couldn't they or someone possibly, maybe not completely rework the game, but just make it function offline? (Not something like a private server but then again idk).

The Trust system at least makes soloing viable for a majority of content and some puzzles and traps that required people to do (like stepping on platforms, stuff like that y'know) just require a key item from a sidequest or mission.

In a year people will probably be playing the mobile version, whatever it may end being like. It'd be a shame that when the games finally shuts down in a few years what fans get is a "goodbye and enjoy the mobile version :^)".

To make the game function offline would either require a private server, or require them to recode the game, because the client doesn't do any calculations or control any NPC actions. The client just displays the graphics and audio and relays our commands to the server. So for the game to function offline, everything the server does must be offloaded to your computer, which means you have to run two applications (and the server application likely isn't on Windows anyway), or they'd have to recode the game application to do all those functions. Also, the servers have much more RAM and CPU power, and it's actually several servers running each world, since monsters are always active even when nobody is in the zone, and the in-game clock is always running, so they'd have to code it to only process certain things instead of every NPC in the game to work on a standard consumer machine. At that point they'd essentially be making the game from scratch, which is what they're doing with FFXI mobile. It's a huge investment, and they make more money just continuing to collect subscriptions.

[peculiar]

On the positive side there will always be fans who continue to keep the games alive privately.

Even if Square shuts down XI, it will still exist to be playable. Same as XIV v1 is.

[Elexia]

On the positive side there will always be fans who continue to keep the games alive privately.

Even if Square shuts down XI, it will still exist to be playable. Same as XIV v1 is.

Biggest problem: a lot of them don't care for certain content so they don't even bother coding it. So realistically, you would need SE to release XI's source if you truly want it to be kept alive. In all reality the only reason they won't preserve XI is because of XIV. There's no way to get around that fact - if XIV wasn't their current baby, they'd have done everything to streamline or modernize XI because no company would get rid of a product or let it die if it prints as much money as XI did. Keeping it around wouldn't be a risk, they simply would have to dedicate the time and money to bringing XI "up to code" and they don't want to. Maybe once XIV continues it's trend and pushes most of its players away eventually they'll think about it. I mean, XI somehow manages to offers content and systems it's "sibling" XIV doesn't and seemingly can't based on recent interviews, so in all honesty, I think SE will have plans for XI, just not yet.

[peculiar]

Biggest problem: a lot of them don't care for certain content so they don't even bother coding it. So realistically, you would need SE to release XI's source if you truly want it to be kept alive. In all reality the only reason they won't preserve XI is because of XIV. There's no way to get around that fact - if XIV wasn't their current baby, they'd have done everything to streamline or modernize XI because no company would get rid of a product or let it die if it prints as much money as XI did. Keeping it around wouldn't be a risk, they simply would have to dedicate the time and money to bringing XI "up to code" and they don't want to. Maybe once XIV continues it's trend and pushes most of its players away eventually they'll think about it. I mean, XI somehow manages to offers content and systems it's "sibling" XIV doesn't and seemingly can't based on recent interviews, so in all honesty, I think SE will have plans for XI, just not yet.

Yes, if not for xiv xi would never of been allowed to get into the state it is, that is unquestionable. Money would of been allocated and it would of been pushed forward with enhanced graphics and whatever else it needed just as wow was. They also realize they are direct competition for each other so buffing xi when xiv has a cash shop is not something they really want to do.

Why is XIV more important to them now? Well it costs a lot more in upkeep than xi ever could, it's not even more popular in real terms than what xi was before it was left to stagnate. So what could it be... oh yes of course, it's because just like mobile games it's less of an mmo and more of a virtual shopping mall. All those hundreds of "optional items" or micro-transactions really make the difference in their profitability going forward.

The profits from a cosmetic that cost a few hundred dollars to make and that can be duplicated infinity is incredible, they started off cheap and are now pushing upto $20 each. This is the real reason xiv has the limelight and xi is being put into the cupboard.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/270076-15-dollars-for-a-nondyeable-one-piece-outfit

Irregardless my hope is that Square wises up and sees that at this point in time they have milked as many xi players that would goto xiv as possible and instead of losing us as a customer base they properly support this game to keep us around. They don't need to upgrade the graphics, I know that will cause issues with xiv but they do need to treat their xi players with respect...or lose them. As I say, most of us that are still here are not going to transition and they need to realize that.

[Elexia]

I think people need to get over the whole "if FFXIV didn't exist" thing.

It's common sense and business practice - XI generated SE the most funds, of any project, continously. No company would shrug that off and would do whatever it takes to maintain that or even have it generate more. You seen the lengths they went to for XIV alone. Now...extrapolate that to a project already earning them over a billion+ yen.


The decison to re-build FFXI away from consoles and onto PC-only, would have needed to occur much earlier in the game's lifetime.

Incorrect - Moving a game to a new engine or even dedicated platform can come at any time it'd be viable to and possible to do - Meaning if XIV wasn't their forefront focus, it'd have a better chance because instead of dedicating the resources they are to a new mmo that requires much more allocation, it would go to a preexisting one. The only thing we personally don't know is if they started to revamp XI (think about all the core changes the past 4 years) but can't go about it due to various reasons.


The only reason FFXI existed in the first place, was that SE are constantly adding to the Final Fantasy series, always looking to add another Roman Numeral to the list, lol. So FFXIV was inevitable.

XI exists because they wanted to step into the MMO realm after being inspired by EverQuest - It makes no sense to say that a 2nd FF MMO was inevitable when they already took both main series into the MMO world (Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.) XIV could have been an offline title or even a new tactics title, for example.

So in all actuality, it's nothing to do with XIV as a game itself..it's the simple fact of the matter: What MMO would you dedicate resources to, especially given the circumstances? FFXI or FFXIV? Even DQX has slowed development a bit when XIV revved up (since Yoshida was the lead designer for it after all.) So think about that: If XIV hadn't come around, 2007-2010 could have been ample time to enhance and even port XI over, instead of wasting hundreds of millions on XIV 1.0, then later 2.0. That extra income wouldn't have gone to many other projects that wasn't already being developed or going to be developed because the MMO division (3?) doesn't work on offline titles.

[machini]

Stompa, the point is that they had the resources, in time, money, and programmers, to move XI from PS2 and PC to solely PC, and give it a graphical update, and an updated UI. They had years to do this, but instead of putting money back into XI, they shoved money into the bottomless pit that was XIV 1.0. And then, instead of just letting XIV die, they continued to neglect their other MMO, the one that actually was making them lots of money, and diverted even more money to a game that had already failed, in large part due to the fact that it wasn't XI 2.0, which was what the majority of players who played Squeenix MMOs wanted.

They made XI to ride the EQ bandwagon, and much like how EQ is still going strong nearly 16 years later, XI still exists. Unlike EQ, however, XI got abandoned and neglected and languished for years, all because WoW came out, and Squeenix wanted to jump on the WoW bandwagon with XIV. They just forgot that everyone who wanted to play WoW was already playing it, and everyone who wanted to play a Final Fantasy MMO was already on XI.

[Atomic_Skull]

I would love to know what goes through the mind of those people when they think about this. You know they do. They have their little round table meetings and discuss things. So FFXI comes up, and no one suggests that millions of dollars of profit every year is worth keeping around for a small investment? FFXI has given them so much money that they couldn't invest a bigger investment to keep it's profits around? "OOOOH MAN! We'd basically have to create a new game to facelift the graphics" So freakin do it. The work would be paid for in a freakin year or less from XI subs, just don't sit there and whine. Of course, many years have passed since that amazing decision to go with XIV instead.

Even today they aren't getting chump change for FFXI. I find it mind boggling that they are so willing to be rid of XI, given they are a company that struggles financially every year

I think it should be abundantly clear by now that Square Enix is a company that makes bad choices. Poor decision making like that is the reason they are struggling.